The Ringer NBA Show - The Murky Future of Joel Embiid and the Sixers. Plus, No-Power Rankings. | Group Chat

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos kick off the week discussing what’s next for the Philadelphia 76ers and Joel Embiid after the latter’s season was ended due to a knee injury (2:31), and talk out whether or not the Sixers should enter full tank mode. Then, the guys go through their latest edition of the No-Power Rankings and figure out which teams currently have the worst situations for the foreseeable future in the NBA (18:12). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Varyer and joining me. Rob Mahoney, Big Waz. I was looking through the photos of the Vanity Fair Party. You know how they have those all out after the Oscars every night? I didn't see you. What happened? Didn't get the invite?

I was in New York, man. Come on, man. I'm in New York right now, at least for one more day. And so I've missed the Vanity Fair Party. But there's always next year. I feel like this is the life you lead, though, is every time I see, seemingly innocuous party photos of celebrities. I will at least do

a quick scan of the background for Waz to see if he's like laughing at a Steph Curry joke somewhere back there. No, like listen, NBA holidays, you can find me at pretty much all of these little elbow rubbing situations where

the activations. Actually, where NBA media gets to hang out with actually important people but the Hollywood stuff is a little bit dice here. It's a little bit harder to get into. You guys will not surprised. I did take a little cursory, like a couple of texts and emails to try to figure out how to get into the Golden Globe party in LA. A few, yeah, put some feelers out there. I got, I got like 40% there. I didn't push the issue, but I feel pretty positive that I could get into

the Globes next year after party, not the actual award. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Which one of us are you bringing as your plus one? Oh, good question. Hey, man, I'm throwing out for grabs. You guys got to fight it out. I'll hit you up, Waz. We're going to do some soft lobbying for 2026. What was it the other day that Waz told us like, man, you don't know.

Like maybe I'll get there eventually. Was it Congress? Was it like a seat in the political system? I wouldn't doubt it. And Waz was like, you know, there's a possibility down the road. I forgot what it was, but it was a seat of power. You just be surprised who's a fan

and a listener to this podcast. You guys would be shocked the amount of prominent people who care about the shit that we do up here. We speak directly to the rich and powerful, I think. You know, we're in their ears influencing how they feel about Jordan Poole on a daily basis. Like, I think we're doing the work. Yes, I've always said I'm the NBA media version of Maddie and Glace.

So, you know, there's no surprises there, guys. Well, they celebrated Hollywood's biggest stars last night. We're going to celebrate the NBA's biggest shitheads. we're talking. That's rude. That's rude. The no top power rankings, the annual exercise we go through the worst situations in the NBA. But we have to start first and foremost with unfortunately a team that I think is going to factor into our rankings. The Philadelphia 76ers who unfortunately lost Joel Embed for the season, if you can consider what he's done thus far, really participating in the season.

He only played 19 games this year, 8 and 11 with Embed there. He got shut down for the rest of the season. I think the really dire part of this is, you know, whenever an athlete gets shut down and has surgery, it's always like, oh, we expect a full recovery. He'll be back for training camp the next year. This one, it was just like, oh, I don't know. Rob, what did you think about this news? I guess it was expected for pretty much the entire season. Yeah, if not the entire season, then certainly lately.

And so, yeah, it just felt like business as usual for the Sixers and the way things have gone. This was a confirmation that I think not only we were. looking for, but I'm sure the team was looking for in some ways. Just make this official, make it clear which direction the team is going. The Sixers need to lose games, and they probably need to lose more games than they are currently, which is saying something. But this is where things have gone for them. I just, I didn't see any other way out for Philly other than to take this path,

let Joel come back as cautiously as possible, try to keep your pick, maximize the opportunities for some of the guys further down the roster a la Quentin Grimes going absolutely bonkers right now. What else can you do? Yeah, it was headed this way. I'm pretty sure it was Lisa Salters who broke the news on an ESPN broadcast that she talked to Joelle

and he was like, yeah, I'm thinking about probably getting a surgery at the end of the season. And everybody was like, wait, hold on. Like, if your knee is to the point where you're already thinking about surgery, then what are you doing right now? Why aren't, why isn't Joelle just shutting it down immediately and, you know, rehabbing and worrying about next year and doing everything that he can to stay on the court?

And so it felt like it was going this way from the beginning. And I think what sucks is that, you know, people kind of question the idea that he would have, you know, played in the Olympics and just not just not done this, what he's doing now much earlier, which is, you know, basically eight, nine, ten months ago, started. this on this process. And I understand why he wanted to get in this season with the revamp squad, a new all-star teammate, all of this stuff, wanting to, you know, challenge for an NBA title, finally get out the second round. But yeah, this is a big, big, big bummer, even if we saw it coming for months now. Yeah, I think that's the worry. There isn't any, like, sort of prescription or any sort of surgery that's on the docket right now. If anything, the reporting from Shams Shorani and other people suggest, like, they just want to shut him down. So they,

they can come up with the solution. It sounds like there might even still be some disagreements about how to approach it, both between Joel and from the Sixers perspective. I think this just like it's become so bad. And Embed, as he has in the past, wants to play through these things just to prove that he's like not this injury prone guy. I think it's just caused clashing up and down. So I don't know where you go from here.

I mean, we don't know we're not doctors except for perhaps Waz on his free time. But I do think this is this sort of situation where we have to start worrying about Joel's entire future in the NBA. This is now so persistent with his leg, not even before he got to the league in his first couple of years, but now it's becoming year to year where it's like, is he going to play? Is he going to play next year? Is he going to play the year after that?

It's all up for grabs. Yeah, and by association, the future of the Sixers as a whole and the direction of that team. And so, how do you want to navigate this, JV? Because, as you said, we're doing no power rankings today. Spoiler alert, the Sixers are on my list of the five teams whose future I would least like to be a part of or invest

in or I feel least confident about. Do you want to jump straight to Philly on our list? Do you want to go one to five, five to one? How do you want to go from here? Well, before we pivot to the rankings, I just want to ask you guys about the rest of their season. Like we can get to beyond that after that. Rob, you kind of laid out there that you think their best course of action is to tank this out,

just try to keep their pick, which is top six protected. Yeah. Here's my question. Like, might they find themselves in a situation where they can't control that? Because on the one hand, like there's still good players on this team.

Paul George is still playing for as long as he is. Like Tyrese Maxie is still out there. Quentin Grimes putting up 44. They might like can only be so bad in part because the bulls right in front of them I think would also love to get worse in that standing. So I wonder like can you tank your way to a pick here or are they going to end up in a situation where they're playing the play and regardless of how they feel about this? I think they're going to end up in a situation that is terrifying for them.

And it's sort of a cruel inversion of the lottery nights that Philly has had. in recent history, where they're hoping to strike it big with the first overall pick. I think this lottery night is going to be so much more tenuous because they're going to be right on that borderline of whether they get to keep the pick or not. And it may come down to whether a team with worst lottery odds jumps them into the high lottery and nudges them out in the process. There's just so many worst case scenario outcomes for them here. And honestly, if they end up in that sort of seven, eight range and have to convey the pick

this year after everything that they've been through with nothing. nothing to show for it. And I say that not just in terms of the pick itself, but the developmental opportunities have been pretty scant. You know, you know a little more about Gershon Yabusele as an NBA player than you did a couple months ago. That's great. But it's not like there were a bunch of young guys on this team who have thrived with the newfound responsibility that they've had. It's not like Tyrese has taken a great leap forward of anything. I think you've exposed some of the limitations of what he can be to you as a creator and as a primary driver of offense, given how much he's had to do for them this season.

So I hope for their sake that they come out of this with their own pick. And to me, the only clear way to try to do that is to proceed as cautiously as possible, not just around Embed, but around Paul George, around whatever pieces of the rotation, you need to selectively withhold and mind their knees and mind their feet and try to get everyone ready for next season. Like, that's really the only thing that the Sixers are playing for. Yeah, I could kind of go to the other way on this. just the idea that they would just, you know, sit maxi for no reason.

And Paul George, who's barely done a sit, lifted a freaking finger this entire year and be like, oh, he's got a strange groin or something ailment, calf that's keeping them out. I mean, like having the Sixers tanked enough, you know, like, at a certain, if Paul George is already getting shots to be able to play, I don't think you're inventing reasons, right? You're just being, at a certain point, you're just being responsible about it. That's fair. just quit his podcast in order for the stretch run to be his death. The hiatus cannot be for not, you know.

They must charge bravely forward. I would just like to see these guys try to be competitive, show some pride for the season. Just the idea that they would just roll out, you know, the end of their bench and start giving the scrubs 20 minutes a night so that they could pursue, you know, a six pick in the draft. Like, I understand logically, I get it, guys. I'm not an idiot. I understand why you. you would want to take a crack at a top six talent in this draft. That's not lost on me.

But at the same time, you know, like Quentin Grimes just went out and dropped 40. Why not have him playing for something? You know, feeling like these games actually matter that could actually serve this team going forward. Why shouldn't Maxie be trying to, you know, learn how to navigate being the actual man? And again, like, we talk about teams that show signs at the end of seasons before, sort of on a pre-call. Why can't the Sixers be that kind of? kind of team that show signs in the late stages of the season that they carry into next year. That's what I would honestly like to see them do rather than the Sixers again tanking for

picks. Yeah, on the one hand, we'll see about Paul George. I would be surprised considering he made such a show of shutting down the podcast that he would shut down the rest of his season. And on the one hand, he's been so bad that I almost wonder if he plays more that actually helps their tanking odds. on the other hand, when he does play more of like a... He hasn't been that bad.

He's been pretty bad. In a big picture winning since, yes, but in a tanking sense, Paul George does not drive in the tank. Well, actually, he made such a stink out of playing more of a big man position. I actually like him considering just the lack of athletic pop that he's had this year, playing more of like the four and God forbid like a small ball center next to the guy who's actually going to take the pounding and like a Yabaseli and whatnot. I think actually he fits there if he's not going to have the same athleticism be the

same sort of athletic freak that we've known from the past. So we'll see about that. But I do like the idea of giving guys some shots because this is where Darrell Moore has always thrived, finding guys in the bargain bin. It almost feels like, you know, at the end of casino where he's like retreated back to his like San Diego home. And he's like, but I can always pick a winner. So they let me alone and just let me just make money for them. That's Darry right now, just bringing in Jalen Hed Schafino and these type of guys in there. Rob, are these any sort of these like, low-level bargain bin guys. Lonnie Walker is now back in the NBA

and with the Sixers. Is there any one of those you like more than the others? I mean, I think we all agree that Lonnie Walker is probably an NBA player. He's just in that fringe bracket that one year to the next could swing out and end up in Europe clearly or end up playing overseas. I find myself really liking Jared Butler

as a prospect, as someone to throw into the mix, but not necessarily the kind of player you're going to build a team around or even build a rotation around or even necessarily guarantee a spot to next season. But here's where I agree with this is six sixers could really benefit from having some pressure

from the bottom part of the roster, guys who are threatening to play more, threatening to do more in a way that like, this is a strangely veteran team for a group that is in the position that they are. You need some of that juice. Like you need some of that drive. You need some guys who are, you know,

an Andre Drummond type who's kind of being gifted minutes and not doing a lot with them this season. to feel like his job is actually on the line. And I think that's a healthy thing for a team in their position. And there's just not enough of that with where they are right now. And you would hope with guys like Butler, with guys like Hood Chavino, who they're bringing in, with guys like Lonnie Walker,

who's fighting for his NBA life in some senses, that maybe you can get some of that desperate energy back because the Sixers have been anything but desperate. They howled out their entire roster in order to get Paul George. So they just need bodies just to fill out the rotation. And they've done that thus far, quitting Grimes of Rev. I've loved Quentin Grimes for God knows like two years at this point.

I was surprised that the mad dealt him. I mean, it's tough to figure out what's going on with Dallas these days. But I have to assume like, because Quentin Grimes was funny as he's the exact listed height and weight as Caleb Martin. But he definitely doesn't play as as nasty as Caleb Martin. And it seems like Dallas just likes the histrionics of certain guys, the theater of being tough and rugged. But Grimes is a much better shooter, better score.

Yeah. against the war. Isn't as nasty, you mean he doesn't go through like a two-week stretch where he makes zero-threes? Right. The shooting numbers are what's actually nasty. Yeah. Grimes is just an awesome shooter. And for whatever reason, teams keep giving up on him.

I don't know if he's the type of guy who just plays not as hard as like you'd expect. But I love the talent. I think that was a good pick. I think he could also be a guy whose attitude can sour from time to time. Sure. That's been the book on him is that, you know, when things aren't going his way that he can be a bit of a, I don't want to say a sulker.

I don't, I think that's too harsh, but like, yeah. Well, there's the part of it that I understand and the part of it that I don't. The part of it that I understand, if Dallas didn't believe in Quentin Grimes and Jason kid at least did not believe in Quinn Grimes, and clearly Nico Harrison didn't, to a certain degree, you don't want to pay him as an upcoming free agent. That doesn't really make sense. And so you trade him for a guy who's on a guaranteed contract who maybe you do believe in a little more.

Okay, that checks out. I don't agree with the evaluation. by I understand the logic. The other part is this, which is like, why didn't you trust him in the first place? And that's where it was, I think you're probably on to something. The distinction is, is Quentin Grimes, like, a difficult player to work with who sowers on situations, or was it just not a compatible personality, right? Between him and kid or him and teammates or him and whoever, like, there's situations in which a guy is a problem and there's situations in which a guy just isn't a good fit. And I think we're going to find out which one is true for Quentin Grimes pretty quickly.

Sounds like a perfect Daryl Morey player. Like he has so much talent, but like, I don't know, personality wise. Let's just get the talent in there and we'll figure out the rest of it. I will say there's like a nice little like alternate reality forming for the Sixers. If they do end up keeping their pick, let's say they get like a top five player in a draft that has been like suggested is like, you know, first five to six guys could really make a difference for your franchise. Then you have Grimes in there. Then you have some of these other guys you're bringing up from the feeder system. Then it's like, oh, we might be able to switch our time.

timeline on the fly here where it's like Tyrese Maxi plus whatever the future holds. Whereas right now it seems like they're so beholden to Embed and Paul George just because of the contracts that they're on. I almost wonder if they could have their cake and eat it too if they do some of these things right toward the end of the season. So I guess maybe not the basketball itself will be fun, but the stakes seem pretty big for a team that as we mentioned has been in the drags of the league for the entire season. How realistic is it that they could move on from $250 million players? Let's save that for the future power rankings. I feel like that's the crux of that.

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fandal.com gambling problem call 1-800 gambler or visit rg dash help dot com so we each came with our bottom five situations from this point going forward um i think we'll have a lot of the same teams but i'm curious who you guys have do you want to just start with the sixers if or do you want to start for number five with you guys. Let's start from number five and we'll wind our way wherever the Sixers end up falling. Okay. Rob, then who do you have at number five? I have the Charlotte Hornets at number five, the 14 and 45 Charlotte Hornets. Do you guys have them on your list? Yes. I do not. Do not. The honorable mentions. Yeah. I think they're on the borderline, which is fair because on the one hand, Charlotte is very bad this season. You will hear no argument from

anybody. But Lamello plus Brandon Miller once he comes back from his wrist injury plus one more high level prospect through a lottery pick. That's pretty viable core, especially for a team that I don't think we say this enough. Like Charles Leah's these guys playing pretty decent defense, like pretty respectably on that side of the floor. It's just that when you take it all into account, you want a little more momentum out of a season like this one. There's a lot of interesting prospects, guys who I have my eye on, but I'm not like, you know,

I'm not seeing Nick Smith Jr. and seeing a real pop. I'm seeing what could be. And I'm, I'm, Sonic. Nick Smith, Jr. Potential future Sonic. And even Mark Williams, who I think we like his offensive game and what he can be as a lob finisher.

It's a tough look to come out of a season like this and say a competitive team, Nick's acquiring you because of health concerns, doesn't make you feel great about the Hornets' immediate future. And so this is a team that I think has an interesting trajectory and has enough going for it where I'm keeping my eye on them. That's why they're not number one on this list. It's the worst situation in the league.

But they do have a long way to go. The reason why they're number five on my list, like they have nice young talent, right? When you talk about La Mello Ball, who was on the edges of the All-Star conversation, a lot of people felt like he was the biggest snub of the game. So you have a guy averaging 30. People think he's a bona fide all-star.

Obviously, Brandon Miller gets a lot of love on this show. Like, we love Brandon Miller universally between the three of us. And then their second best player is probably Miles Bridges. And I think that's the problem for the Hornets for me. is that your two best players are lamella ball and miles bridges. And the idea that you were going to build winning NBA habits while emphasizing those two as the centerpieces of your rebuilding or building operation, I think that's a dubious sort of idea at best.

The idea that you can have those two guys as the nucleus of something meaningful going forward. And so that's why I have them on their list. I think they have like, if you just stripped away the sort of work requirements of an MBA franchise and how you build something that sustains and lasts and can be meaningful in terms of winning going forward, they have talent that would suggest like, oh, okay, we can be optimistic about what they do. But once you factor in the actual personalities of the people involved, that's when you start to be like, I don't know if like doing something different around the quote unquote nucleus of this core wouldn't be the best path forward. I do like that they have made some smart business decisions ever since the new ownership took over.

We've seen throughout the NBA over the course of we've been doing this pod like new owners doing stupid things. They've done the complete opposite where they've almost been overly prudent and like thinking more in the long term after years and years and years of the Charlotte Horn is just playing for that season. just trying to get the A seed, Michael Jordan, just trying to ram in, like, college all-star into a team that's just, like, already fine to begin with. I just like, they're looking at this, like, big picture.

They haven't said, like, lamello ball, we got to take advantage of what he is. We've got to build her on him and build a winner right now. If anything, they're like, maybe La Melle ball isn't our guy. Maybe it's actually Brandon Miller, plus whatever we get down the road. And I think both Rob and I had talked in the past about Saloon

and just, like, how he doesn't really have a lot of the ball skills that you'd want from an NBA basketball player. But I like that approach in the draft because in a draft, like last year's where it was basically a crap shoot to begin with, it had a lot of teams picking from need as opposed to future potential. Like they were thinking like, let's just hit a home run. We have a top pick. If it doesn't work out, who cares? We're just going to keep being as bad as possible to be as good as possible down the road.

And I appreciate that perspective as opposed to someone like a different team that's just like right in the middle and trying to figure things out just to be like, for instance, the Bulls. I mean, the Bulls would be the perfect counter example to this. I hear you. I think, I mean, people do care if so on hits or not. Like, it's very important to their team if he hits or not. And as I stated before, I'm just like waiting to see whatever it was that they saw in him. Because he fades into the background of a lot of games. He doesn't have a lot of skills that like really jump out at you.

I want him to be good, but I find myself just wanting a lot from him. It looks like an MMA fighter. I think that's what they saw in him. He certainly has the giant athlete. I think that's what you're banking on is like positional flexibility, defending multiple spots. like a new age forward, a new age wing. Like I can get that part of it. I just don't see the overall cohesive game.

And maybe it will come in time. Like again, these are all future situations and we're waiting to see with them. I think having Lamello under contract for four more years is a pretty good situation for Charlotte. Like you don't have quite as much pressure to, as you say, Justin, accelerate things really quickly in the way the previous regime did speed into the skid. Like you can take your time with this thing a little bit more. And I think there's a pretty decent demarcation between four and

five for me. Like I have the Hornets at five. I don't think they're in a bad situation. I just think that the NBA doesn't have a lot of terrible situations right now. There are some teams with bad vibes. There's some teams, their season has gone off the rails. But overall, Charlotte has good young players. They have Dallas's 2027 first round pick, which could turn out to be quite good. And they have like a good coach who's like building something there. So I think there's enough there to like. It's just that they haven't really started putting it all together just yet. There's a long-term vision where it seems like everybody's aligned on how they're moving forward. And I can't say that about the team I have at number five,

which is the Chicago Bulls, who seems like they finally got the message. That's my, yeah, that's my question. Only five. Oh, you have them higher. I think, like, the other teams are just so much worse.

And at the end of the day, like, I do think market muscle matters when you get to a certain point. Like, could the Bulls, if they show enough in the next two to three years, like attract a star free agent there? maybe, maybe, probably not.

They haven't in a very long time. Yeah. But I think, I think it's within the realm of possibility at the very least. You've seen guys go to Brooklyn when there's absolutely nothing there or just like go to the clippers who like have just been clearly the number two team in that market for a while. So I don't know. We'll see. I also think they have some guys that I like there. They have Bezellis who we've talked about in the last pot is the guy with some potential.

You know how much I appreciate Jaskin even what he brings to the table. Yeah. Playing very well of late. And also, like, the guys that they have left over who are veterans are now expiring contracts. So if they wanted to, like a swing and make sense, like Vooch and Herder. I like the second, like, almost not second draft, but like second poll at Herder because he didn't work out with the Kings. It's like, let's give him a shot. If he doesn't do well, he's on, he's an expiring contract.

And there he goes. Yeah. Collins. Kobe White's a good player. So they just like have enough stuff. And to me, that market, I think that was enough to push them ahead of the horn. So I probably would have had six if we went that. That's a lot of stuff that I don't feel very confident in.

Okay. And the problem, the problem for the bulls I had number two. I also have them. I also have them number two. Number two. And it's not just the players that are currently on the roster. And we think we know what direction they're going in terms of them trading Zach Levine. Like they're going in some youth driven direction.

Do we actually know that? Are we sure that that's what they're going to do? I just think they're so horribly mismanaged. And the fact that they don't even have a talent that they could botch, right? Like, they don't even have that where you could be like, man, they got this thing. And if they could just put the – they don't even have that. So, like, the idea that they're going to draft the right guy, that they're going to bring in the surrounding pieces that matter. That the coaching is actually going to make sense around what they bring in.

That there's going to be any co-heach. I have no confidence in it. And so while I like the – fact that they did move on from Zach Levine. I look at this roster. I'm like, it's just good enough that they can be like, oh, let's add on to this this offseason. I can't believe we're still here.

I can't believe we're still having this conversation about the both. We're always here with the Rinesdorfs. Some of the worst owners in sports, I know we say it a lot up on the show. They don't get nearly enough of the guff that they deserve for being so horrible as owners. And Justin mentioned market might. Your owners have to act.

like that. Yeah, sure. Your owners have to let players know, like, look, we may not be the Lakers or we may not be the Knicks in terms of money and blah, blah, blah, blah, but we're going to make you feel like we are, you know, some top of the line organization in some number one media market, blah, blah, blah, blah. They don't act like that. They treat this shit like it's a freaking, you know, double A league.

So that's why I still see the future of the Bulls is bleak as hell. Yeah, I think for this exercise, you know, there's the question of like what players on these teams do you believe in? The Bulls have some players, I believe, and I think Boozellis is the most interesting prospect they have going forward. A guy that I'm eager to see what he can become. And I think he can, I think he could probably quite good. But then there's the question of like, what front offices do you believe in and what ownership groups do you believe in? And I just don't think we have any reason to think that the Bulls know what they're doing at all.

It is bad process after bad process after bad process. It's waiting too long on guys. They should have traded. It's holding on to guys. They should have traded. It's selling low. when you shouldn't sell low. It's giving Pat Williams

one of the worst contracts in the league when he's shown absolutely no capacity to earn it. And so like all of these things, like I see a team that as you're saying, JV,

like there are some spots on it that like these are real NBA players. Kobe White's a good player. He's also due for a significant raise in a year. And now all of a sudden he's one of the best players on your team if not the best player on your team. And what kind of direction does that put you in going forward?

And how does that handcuff you when your future is whozel is putting it as quickly as possible. Kobe White, who we like Lanzah ball, whether he can stay healthy, Josh Giddy, who I understand, he's playing a little better lately. I understand that the Bulls have some wins. I can promise you, I, I'm not moved by it.

I, like, we have, we have seen quite a body of work from both in Chicago. He has been, he has been perfectly fine. And I, come on. I am not in a rush to tether my future or the future of my franchise, as the Bulls will have to do to Josh Giddy. Well, they have plenty of funds coming up. So they could splash as much money. to get his way as they want to. But I think you guys are right. If you're looking at this from

an organizational standpoint, you're looking at ownership first and foremost, I would say on this list, maybe second worst, we'll talk about the team that I have a number one later on. But yes, there's now a long track record to suggest that whomever is making the decisions, whoever is playing these games, it might not matter because of what they're doing in the ownership box. The one thing I will say, though, is that Jimmy Dolan managed to attract some free agents to the garden. And if he could it, then I think like the rhinosurfs can probably do it too. So I don't know. I just, when it comes down to it, like I'm always going to factor in that and give the edge to a Chicago than as Charlotte when we're talking about like NBA stars free freedom of will, their choice of

where they want to live their lives. Sure. Is a major factor in how good a team is first and like now and then in the future. Well, and all the Knicks had to do to get that for agent was employ his dad as an assistant coach and then take a gigantic moon shot on a, player who had been pretty good and turned out to be a freaking star. Like, I'll do respect to the Knicks, but Jalen Brunson is not a normal free agent situation. If anything, that's more likely that they could do that than like, get AD to come back home to Chicago. They would have to scout the next Jalen Brunson.

And I do not trust the Bulls to do that. But part of it, too, guys, is like, forget the free agent. It's sort of the pre-agency. You have to have the guy that somebody, if they don't sign with you. you in free agency forces a team to get you to, right? Like Jimmy being like, all right, I'll okay a trade to Steph Curry, you know, or Dane, who unsuccessfully but was like, I want to go to Miami. He has a really close relationship with a bam out of bio, right?

Like, who the hell do the bulls have that somebody's going to be like, yeah, no, no, no, I want to pair up with him. Like, they don't even have. Taylor and Horton Tucker. Yeah. Oh, my God. Talk about bad body. He's big in the clutch system.

Lord have mercy. Jesus. how I look at it. He's got a dad body at 25. This is nasty. Which happens to all of us. Yeah, I don't criticize that one. That's very relatable.

What if the Bulls luck into the number one or number two pick? They have Dylan Harper right now. And he just ends up being incredible. He's the new Darren Williams or whatever you want to say. Or Cooper Flag. Yeah, exactly. And I think they can make that pivot way quicker than a team like Charlotte could, for instance. Like our team that's starting from scratch.

Like Utah jazz. Like, who the hell is Utah going to attract down to? Utah. Like, yeah, if, if, if, if A's Bailey all of a sudden becomes a free agent like five to seven years down the road and he's just as good as Harper, like, you don't think he would want to come to Charlotte or excuse me, Chicago as opposed to like the reverse in Utah, that matters, I think. I think that does matter. I just, I like Utah's situation significantly more to the point that are they not on your list. They're not on my list. Whoa. They're, they're knocking on my list, but they're just not messy enough. And, you know, you know,

you have some level of respect for Danny Aange's ability to build a winner. But to be honest, they're kind of the bulls with better management structure. And, you know, a lot more picks, a lot more picks. This is that. We'll save that for when it comes up on Justin's list. So we've all done our five. Was, who do you have it for? Oh, the Wizards.

Okay. I don't like, really like any of their young players. To me, they're going to be tanking for the next three. years. There's nothing to be excited. Look, I like Cool about, like, he has a great physical attribute for a wing. It's like, wow, his physicality, his physical traits hop off the page. I don't think he's going to be our next Anthony Edwards, Devin Booker, whatever type of wink. Like, I don't see that. Maybe you guys do. I don't. Like, Saar, this little shit that we've seen of him. Look, he looks.

looks like he has some great potential defensive upside. Like, there's nothing here that would indicate that, like, you know, of rockets of last year, not even this year. No. Of last year is on the horizon for them. I don't see it. And so they're my fourth team because, like, look, they're doing the right thing. They're accumulating young draft guys and assets and all of that stuff.

But, like, boy, like, are you guys, like, obsessed with Kisper? Like, are you guys, like, see Kisper play? like, man, the future is so bright here, I don't see it. It's not very bright. I have them at number two. I have them in the number three. Yeah. Okay.

For the exact reason, Waz laid out. They basically just completely raised down the garden bed and they're just starting a new and they're just starting to plant new sorts of things. And so far, none of the vegetables are really to appealing. We're not homeowners like we don't have gardens and backyards. Like, why are you explaining something? don't understand at all. Okay.

It's like starting a new business on Fairfax and all of a sudden just putting a bunch of hype beast logos on shirts. You don't know if people will buy them, but they look cool to you. Is that better? We got to get to Justin's house in August for the Roma tomatoes, Rob. This guy is. Oh, they're coming in. Summer solstice pod?

We don't do that. Summer solstice spot is our best bit yet. I think we got to ride that right into the ground. That's good. So the Wizards currently have 11 wins. Yep. The Oklahoma City Thunder have 11 losses. That's how dire this has been.

But I have to say if we're like playing devil's advocate here, even though I have that number two, like the fact that this hasn't spilled over and is just like a complete catastrophe. If anything, they've like completely pushed out some of the knuckleheads, like the Kyle Kuzmah's of the world. Jordan Poole's still there, but it doesn't seem like he's affecting any sort of,

of the rebuilding process. Like semi-reformed, I would say. I would agree. Yeah. Chris Middleton, just like a totally stand-up dude. And it just seems like they're boring, but they are at the very least following the steps, doing the hard work to get to a place

that they never got with Bradley Beale. Unfortunately, like, they're betting on a hope and a prayer at this point. Like, I just don't think hoping for a lottery luck is a plan. And so for that reason, like, what am I attracted to with this team? just like the fact that they're going to be in the lottery for the next two to three years. Well, Carrington might pop. Yeah. He might. But just you said hoping for lottery luck isn't a plan, but that was just the plan you laid out for the Chicago Bulls is hope, hope and pray that you get Cooper

flag and then maybe your team will be saved. That's fair, but then you have to factor in the market as well. It's very true. Like the wizards, to the extent that anything is happening here, it is a long way away from happening. And I think that's also a problem with their veterans too. Well, you don't need me to stump for Chris Middleton on this podcast. I like Marcus Smart. Fine. I think Jordan Poole has had a respectable turnaround for his season. All three of those guys, if you wanted to move them, would be very tricky to move and would take some doing.

Just given where they are in their career is the amount of money that they're owed, their injury histories in some cases, it's not a very malleable team. And so then you have all of these young players who you're trying to find time and space for, you know, you're trying to make sure that Kishon George can be the best that he can be. be you want to, you know, Corey Kisper is probably in the middle ground of this where he's not as young as the Kulabali types, but clearly not quite part of the veteran corps. Maybe he's someone who has a market if you wanted to move things around, but why would you?

That's kind of where the wizards are. They don't have any kind of definitive direction. They don't have a singular prospect or two that give them momentum in what they're trying to build. And Alex Tsar, to the extent that he could ever be that, probably will not be for some years. So they just have to be on this list. They just don't have enough going for them. And they are so bad at present that they couldn't quite like, there's no way they could justify their way out of it.

How many these guys that are playing on this team right now are going to be on the final version that they expect to be pretty good? It's probably Kulabale, probably Sarr. Is it anybody else? Do you like any of these other guys, Rob? Not enough to make that kind of claim. I think everything else is, honestly, even those guys, I would say are not exactly like nailed down as Washington Wizards.

It's all very, it's like, it's all very ad hoc. And I think we're going to see what the Wizards value. and how those guys develop. There's just so many variables stacked on variables with guys who are 19 and 20 and 21 years old and I don't really trust

basically any of them. Well, is you're a big Justin Champany guy, right? I've heard you just talking about his converted to it. One of my faves, for sure. Just been just grinding the tape on that Champany kid.

They just locked him down, though. Shout out to Justin Champany. Like, yeah, honestly, good, work-a-day NBA player. The Champany family is having a real come up this past couple months. Yeah.

So I had them at two, Rob, you had them where? I had them at three. And was had them at four. Do you want to do your number four, Rob? Yeah, my number four is the Philadelphia 76ers. Same. I think I just reached a point where we've talked about the vibes being horrendous in Philly, and they are.

They have these two massive contracts with Embed and Paul George that make it difficult to basically do anything around the edges or to dramatically reimagine what this team would look like. But at the end of the day, they have at minimum, Tyrese maxi. and at minimum, whatever Joelle and Bede is able to give you. And that's just far in a way better from a player perspective

than any other team we're really even considering here. So there's only so far that they can fall. I think what puts them on this list for me and puts them on this list at four is that they are just the biggest quagmire in the entire league. They don't have any direction they can go

that feels good. And so while they might not be the worst team on paper or the least talented team, it's like if they continue on their current course, their seasons will ride and die, with the health of a star who probably will never be himself ever again. And that's a terrible thing to have to say.

And I hate that we're here with Joelle, but the history speaks for itself. The team itself is trying to, like, all the reports are pointing to these radical treatment methods and radical explorations just to not to get him back to who he was, but to get him to the point that he can play through seasons. That's now your future if you want to continue along this path. I think they can come back as currently constructed

and be decent next year. Like reasonably healthy, they can be a decent team, but the ceiling on them feels so low, and it feels like it could give out at basically any moment. Dude, they're talking about resurrecting from the dead, the micro fracture surgery, that we had long since buried as a viable option when people are having this particular problem with their knee.

People are so out of answers as to how to fix Joelle and B's knee situation that these are the conversations we're having. And they're my number three team. And the reason why, I think if Paul George and Joelle and Bede at their 50 million plus a year contracts, if they could play 65 games a year at a diminished version of themselves, and we just allowed Maxie to work in with diminished versions of an all-star, all-time big when he's right.

and Paul George, who has like been a 10-year damn time All-Star in his freaking career, you could still be damn good doing that. The problem is that there can't be any expectation that these guys would even play 50 games next year. And then like moving these guys? Yeah. Where you're like, oh, let's just get off of the money. Let's, you know, try to get some picks or maybe some exciting young guys. I don't know how you trade for Joelle and Bede at his number.

I think it would cost the Sixers if they tried to move these guys. Not that there is zero market, but the market would be so complex. They would probably have to give things up in some fashion to accommodate a Paul George trade or Joel and Bid trade. I don't know. I mean, so in 2028, 2029, when you'll be listening to this podcast with VR goggles on or like simulated versions of us doing the podcast as we're like feeding them in via AI. That is when Joelle and B will be making $67 million. USD, $67 million. He's currently 30. He'll be about 34 around then. I don't know, man. I would not. If I'm an organization at any point in my life cycle and I could fit that into my book, I would not do it.

It's just like, it's just so scary. Like you don't know if this guy's going to play or not. And if he does play, is he going to be all that effective? Wouldn't that, the Sixers had Maxie Embed and Paul George on the court together this year, seven and eight, sub 500 teams. So it's not like when he's playing, he's awesome. If anything,

like he's shown significant signs of being worse defensively. And then he's just so big and so heavy. Like, man, I think there's just going to be natural astrophy for that player, regardless of the injury situation. So I have met number four. I think because there's such this like doubt or like we don't know what's going to happen medically with Embed or Paul George,

we should point out, I think there's like a possibility that Rob laid out like they could be okay but I don't know where they get better than that and I think if we knew more about the injuries I think they could easily be number one in this list. I think better than that would have to include hitting it big in the lottery, which means keeping their pick in the first place, which as we said is a little touch and go right now. Jared McCain coming back and being a real impact player again in a way that he barely had a chance to prove in his rookie season. And then yeah, you're either using that pick to cash in on a player who is relevant. immediately, which is, I would say more common now for rookies than maybe it has been historically, but we'll have to see with this draft class where they end up, or flipping that pick for someone who can actually contribute to the Sixers now, which I think would be a perfectly reasonable

and valuable enterprise to kind of like knock on some doors and make some phone calls and see what kind of like good rotation veteran you could get for that pick. But that's already a lot of things having to go right. And that's on top of all the health concerns. And that's on top of hoping that like this year you haven't run maxi into the ground playing in 40 minutes a night for a season that's going nowhere he's a ox he'll be straight i hope so was here's a question going forward from this point do you think you would rather have paul george or tobias harris i think for championship purposes if your team is actually trying to think they can win the championship, I'd rather have Paul George.

But for what Detroit is doing, or if I would say Charlotte, or if I was, I don't know, Portland, or I'd rather have Tobias. Like, you know, a competent shooting foreman, professional, knows how to treat people, all of that. Like, he, you know, all of the stuff that isn't tied to his max contract that he was on in Philadelphia and it sure comes with that. But everything outside of that, he's a high quality NBA player. I just don't think in like the biggest moments, you know, that he becomes that kind of play.

I think Paul George still has it. Again, this guy was all-M-B-A last year. Maybe he's not all-M-B-A, but he's a damn solid 38-minute a game postseason player, which I don't think Tobias Harris is that anymore. But even what you just laid out, like, as you're saying it was, last year, Paul George is an all-M-B-A guy really, really good, even in his age right now and with his injury history, still was able to be really highly effective. The answer last season would have been in 100% of

cases you take Paul George. Now it's like a pretty narrow window of team that would want Paul George over Tobias Harris, which... Well, just because he, as you're saying, he can't be a work-a-day guy anymore. He's basically become the star version of an X-factor, right? Like, he is a swing piece that takes a contending team and can give them some things that they

badly need, but he can't be that thing for lots of other teams. And so as you're knocking around the possibilities of, oh, can the Sixers trade Paul George, I think that's worth keeping in mind that a lot of teams out there would get more out of a Tobias Harris type player. He's not as good as Paul George. He's not close to as good as Paul George, but he has more to offer over 82 games than Paul George does. The resurrection of Tobias Harris. Incredible. Everyone knows him an apology because everyone dragged him through the mud and all of so.

He's exactly what every young team needs, just like a solid floor raising guy who's going to shoot some threes and get the fuck out of the way. Do you think, now that Paul George isn't doing one podcast a week or whatever it is, he's just going to all of a sudden click back into place. You think his mind just was thinking about all the in-depth questions he was going to ask his guests? Because I'll be honest,

sometimes I get a little derailed on this podcast just setting you guys up and I can't really perform at my best. I can only see if I was on an NBA court. But he's not, like, with all due respect to Paul George's podcasting, he's not doing a just invariable, right? He's getting takes off. I would say

it's the other guy's responsibility to set him up. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Not everyone can be a Tobias Harris and not everyone can be a JV. You know, like these are very specialized roles and we value them deeply here on group chat.

I think all you need to know about Paul George group group chatting. Paul George podcasting is that he's the kind of guy who thinks telling people he stopped podcasting actually matters. That's like, that's all you need to know about the whole podcasting bit. That he thinks it matters that people know this.

He's locked in. He's locked in. All right. Number three. Rob, you already gave your number three, right? Yeah, mine was the Wizards at three. So is anyone's three yet unclaimed? Yes.

Nope. I have the Utah Jazz. Okay. That's interesting. Okay. Talk us through the Jazz. I just, one, I'm honestly offended that they've retanked, basically, that they went on a tanking journey, just decided that like, all right, well, guess we'll be pretty good.

and then walk that back and now have just completely bottomed out. It's like as a like just a fan of basketball, I'm a little offended. And so for that reason, I have to ding them just like the karmic just like disgust that is going on right now, I think is going to have some comeuppance in the near future. And so like the basketball gods you're saying some comeuppets. I think so, man. They're just like so putrid and they just don't have to be. It just you're offending the sensibilities of this like the karmic basketball guys that dictate everything that I'm a hundred

100% sure that they do. And so for that reason, I'm just like, you know, what do you have? They do have some like solid role players that if they did have a Cooper flag, a Dylan Harper, someone to come right in there. I do think they could turn this around pretty quickly. Assets are good. The picks are good. Cody Williams, not very good. But like with the Wizards, I think if you're just hoping and praying for a number one pick, that's not necessarily a plan. And so I do have to ding them for that. Don't they need to tank though? Like this is a team that hasn't had the like well not just the market well that is a huge factor but they haven't had the like top three crack at the draft yet right like they've been picking in more the mid late lottery

for the most part and getting a lot of guys that as you kind of alluded to maybe there's something there maybe there's not like is cody williams ever going to be a like a real relevant long time NBA player like a pillar for a franchise i honestly don't know like Isaiah collier fine Keante George, I guess he's coming on a little bit more lately. It's been a weird kind of pull the plug season on him.

Bryce Sinsabaugh. I can't say I'm burdened with confidence about where he is right now. I love Kendrick's on ice. I think Kethler's really good. I think George at worst can be like a Jordan Clarkson energy score.

You need those. Obviously the jazz have that in abundance right now. And then obviously Lori is out there just waiting for someone to just let him play competitive basketball. And that's,

to me that's, That's what I'm saying. That's why they're not on my list. I do think the basketball is putrid. I do think there is far as pretty much anybody we've mentioned so far on this list from contending for a championship. Like I don't think they could say like, oh, we're so much closer to the championship basketball than the Wizards.

I don't believe that to be the case. But I do think the building blocks are just much more proven and more exciting. terms of Lori and Walker Kessler. Yeah. And, you know, all of the picks that they've accumulated from, you know, the Rudy deal and the Donovan deal and stuff like that. I do think they're just more there.

So they were on the cusp because I just think talent-wise, there's nothing. There's no reason to think that jazz are going to be knocking on the door of the Western Conference Finals for a long-ass time, right? And I think the reason that they've taken this approach is because they're going to be knocking. Danny Age, apparently, his best friends with the freaking owner. So he's one of those GM job security types that could just do whatever the hell he wants. And so it's taking forever for them to even try some to the point where they were so damn cocky. They didn't even bother tanking for Wembe Nyama, which was insane at the time.

Okay. But I think they got enough that they stayed right at, you know, the outside of my list. Yeah, I think what separates them is the ability to accelerate when they want to. This feels very much like a team that's waiting for that one piece. Like they are waiting in the same way that we said the Wizards are waiting, right? To hit the lottery, hit a big, get that one prospect in the door that can change things dramatically for you. But once they get that guy, Cooper, Flag, or otherwise, then they have all of these picks to rev up and shift gears as basically as quickly as they want to. Like they have an incredible amount of draft capital.

And all of the guys we mentioned, some of them might hit. Like I think Walker Kessler is already a quite good NBA player. Lowry Markin, as we alluded to, is not having his best year, basically because the Jazz don't want or need him to have his last year. He's kind of trying some things, developmentally speaking. He's a sabbatical, basically. He's basically on a sabbatical and is, like, openly experimenting with his role in these games and like the kinds of shots that he can get off.

You put him alongside a point guard who is not Isaiah Collier, with all due respect, that game looks very different. Everything he's doing looks so different. So you give them one prospect, and they are in line to get that prospect to the draft. They're in line to trade multiple picks to move up. up if they need to. I just think they have options in a way that some of these other like, you know, 14 and 15 win teams don't.

I just like the idea of Lori Marketing just like taking games off to just like go to festivals. Like you'll see him at La La Palooza and be like, oh, there's, there's Lari. He just dropped 20 on the Bulls last night. But here he is, just like watching REM. Do you think he's into REM? There's no way he's into. He's more into like Doja Cat than he is, REM. I was going to say like MGMT.

He likes the classics. Love MGMT. It just turns into the plumy that got really into Botteroo that time. Do you remember that? I do remember that. I like the idea that MGMT just made it to Finland. You know, it just made it across since you're like, oh, man, can't get enough. So I did do my pick grading system thing that pretty much only Rob likes, but we'll just go through it yet again because I do think it's important to understanding some of these pick allotments that people have.

A lot of these picks are coming from good teams. calves and wolves at this point both teams i think we would all agree have long track records wolves playing more inspired lately we got to talk about that soon on a pod i would like even if they're playing at a 23rd pick level like who's getting hyped about that i think they have two good picks in their stash at this point and now things can change like the calves injuries happen these picks are so far out that like an entire world of possibilities out there but right now i would say 2031 phoenix picks which is in a plus it might be the absolute best pick Although you can almost look at it is maybe it's so far out there that the sons will basically bottom out and rebound by that point.

Six years from now. I think you want those, though. You want the uncertainty of the distance. And frankly, I think the Phoenix pick is instructive in this way that there is a market for desperate second apron teams to trade away their potentially very good future picks for your maybe not so good, Justin Verrier, lower rated picks. That was, yeah, that was a really bad sign for Phoenix. and then they didn't really end up using most of those. So that Phoenix pick, A-plus, I have, probably one of the best on the board. And then there's a 20-29 Minnesota pick, which I think is interesting, if only because Anthony

Edwards could be a free agent the following summer. And if that situation ever completely devolved, which, again, this is so far out in the future, we don't know what's going to happen, then that one becomes all the way pretty interesting because he would probably ask out right before that, 2029, pretty good. Do you know next year in 2025, the Jazz have a cast. and or Minnesota pick. You know, it's not just like they'll have this one or that one. They have the option of both or one or none, I think.

And I've never seen that before. We're so deep in these fucking pick machinations that this is, it's a whole like cottage industry unto itself. I'm hearing a lot of reasons the jazz should not be on the no power rankings. You know, they got a lot to work with. They've just offended the sensibilities. Also, Cody Williams probably sucks. Kyle Filipowski's transgressions cannot.

Spilipowski, one of the more interesting draft prospects of my life. I'll tell you that much. Go look that up, folks. Definitely a friend of veterans, yeah. All right. He's at his moment. He's actually at his moments lately, too, we should say. Plays well with veterans.

Oh, boy. So I have them at number three on the no power rankings. I had wizards at two. Was, do you have any teams that we haven't talked about yet? Yes. just one team that we haven't talked about. That's my number two, the New Jersey Nets. Oh, well, they moved back to New Jersey.

Yeah, that, I mean, that's how bad things are. Excuse me, the Brooklyn Nets. They had to go back to the IZod Center because things are so bad now. The Brooklyn Nets from the swamp of New Jersey and East Rutherford. Yeah, the same kind of thing with the Bulls who are my number one, honestly, team going nowhere fast. The same kind of thing with the Bulls and the Wizards. Nobody on the team that you like. And you're like, oh, man, you know what?

They have a keeper. This guy's going to be a part of the next great netteam. This is going to be on the next conference finals. Next team is on this roster right now. No, there's not a single person you can point to. So they're basically at the bottom, at ground zero, of trying to figure out how to become, you know, one of the more competitive teams in the league.

again. And for me, that's just why. And it's not like they're not like the jazz dude. They could be like, well, we have these sort of lottery tickets on these other teams that maybe if two guys go down and we get a good lottery pick out of it and like they don't have any of that.

And so that's why I got the nets for me that their future just looks so bleak. It's not good. To borrow the JV bit and as you just laid out I was like, who do you honestly anticipate will still be on this roster? when they are good again.

Their best players are more likely to be traded than not. Cam Johnson was on the trade block all season, basically. I would still anticipate he gets moved at some point. Nick Claxton also feels like he's probably in that same camp. To the extent that Delo is going to be part of the plan, he doesn't actually advance it forward in any meaningful way. And so then you're getting into Cam Thomas, if you want to keep him, which you're going to have to pay to do.

Keon Johnson, Jalen Wilson, plenty of players who are perfectly fine and no real concrete direction. whatsoever yet other than kind of scrambling and splashing around the middle here to be vaguely competitive. And I want to give them credit for that and credit to Jordy Fernandez for giving these guys something to play for. But they just don't have much of a sense of momentum or direction in any particular way. And there is no prospect whatsoever that you can feel really confident is going to be a star. So do you have them on your list, Rob? They're my number one team. Oh, really? You guys both have them in the top two. I have them not on my list at all. Wow.

crazy. You just geeked off of Killian Hayes, ain't you? Yeah. That one for six performance against the Detroit Pistons. DeRon Sharp, I just got you going crazy over there in Portland. I think I'm just giving more credence to the market than perhaps you guys, because they're another team that I could see flipping things around

and getting back into the mix pretty quickly. It's just like guys want to be in New York. Guys want to be in Brooklyn. They attracted two of the biggest superstars in the league a couple years ago and could easily do it again. I also just like, I mean, we talk about, De Niro and Casino, like, the Nets love this shit. They love unerthing.

First of all, we are not talking about De Niro and Casino. You were talking about De Niro and Casino. Did you watch it this weekend? What happened? No, but it's something I've always thought about when it comes to just like someone just getting back to what they do well. I don't know. It's just stuck in my head for that reason. It's you during variable season? I know. I just need to get to the big old glasses and some brightly colored suits and I'll

be back in this game. No, they're just, they're so good at turning these Cs. level players and to be level players. And I think they're already showing signs of doing that again. So the point where they were so good this year with just like a bunch of bombs that like they have to stop themselves from being too good. I think Nicholas Claxton, we talk about guys who might not be there. I think he's going to be there for his entire career at this point. He's going to be the Miles Turner of the Nets where it's like, oh man, he's going to be rumors every year. But he's actually in our Hall of Fame. They just, I don't know. They always find guys. They have enough here. And I think

That plus the mark is the reason I didn't put them on the list. They do find guys, but it's also a huge part of their season. It's just been like they sign like toast on a woman to a two-way contract. And all of a sudden he's playing 25 minutes a night. You know, like that's what this roster is right now, is there's room for random guys to come out of the scrap heap, to come out of free agency and be meaningful every night contributors, not because they are overwhelmingly positive in their contributions,

but just because there's nothing else really going on here. And, you know, I like that Nick Clackston. is their most highest paid player at only $27 million. So what does that mean? Like, if this were the type of NBA where a lot of great players became eligible of free agency, you're like, look, they're well positioned to sign the next great free agent. But they're not.

Players don't come up for free agency. So it's like even with their cap flexibility, I'm like, I don't know. Like, how are they going to actually make that work outside of doing stuff like what Utah would do a lot in facilitating, being a third team facilitating trades and getting assets that way. But again, you have to be bad

in order to be the kind of team that does those kinds of moves. I just think, like, yes, their present isn't, you know, the Bobcats that won six games that one year. Yes, in the present, they're not that. So that's nice. But in the future, like, how do they get back

to, you know, that moment when they first traded for James Harder. We were like, holy shit, these guys are championship contenders. Yeah. You know, how do they get back to that? I just don't see it. I think the fact that they're following the same exact blueprint that got them to that point almost gives me more faith that they could do it again.

Like there's not even a Jared Allen here. Bro, you got to. I mean, like they've also, they haven't had enough drafts to define that guy yet. But like Daron Sharpe is like a totally fine backup. Somebody as good as KD saying he wanted to hitch his career wagon to Kyrie. That's what they banked. Like, that's a.

I mean, they definitely didn't have good taste in, like, locker room guys. I'll say that. They didn't put enough emphasis on that. But maybe they'll learn from those mistakes. I just like, this team isn't like putrid. And if anything, there aren't like bad contracts. They have picks. They have a 27 Philadelphia 76ers pick, which looks mighty good right now.

There's just like stuff in that plus the market plus like the infrastructure. Like, I don't know. I don't think they're that dire. For instance, like the Wizards are the perfect counterpoint to this where it's like the Wizards are doing the same exact thing, but they don't have the same market muscle plus like some of the track record to show to guys in the past. Like, come to our team will bring out the best version of you. Spencer Diddy for instance, for instance. Just a must be spending this summers in Australia or something. Something's up with this Nets bias.

I don't know what's going on over there. I think you're overstating what this is relative to what the Nets were in that kind of developmental heyday where they were just busting out Joe Harris's and Spencer Dinwiddies and Jared Allen's like nothing. Like this is a team that to me has like three, three guys who are like the fifth best player on a team. And then like five guys who are like the eighth best player on a team, if that. And that's not great. I don't disagree, but I also don't think they've had a long time to build up this sort of Jared Allen's in the draft. And so I think they'll get those eventually.

They have a good eye for players. And I think that matters. I hope so. I will say somebody needs, I don't know whether it's the Nets, somebody needs to sign Trenton Watford to a real contract next season on a good winning team. That guy can fucking play.

Free advice out there for anyone looking to how to use your two ways, how to use your 10 days under contract right now. But somebody get Trenton Watford out of here, please. Blazers legend, Trenton Watford. Absolutely. So you guys are all done. You have all your teams out there. All my teams.

Wow. Is this one honorable mention team for me? I still have a number one, I guess. Which you guys don't have on your. Who's your number one team? No. Yeah, yeah. The Phoenix Sun is honorable mention for me.

Yeah. Guys, this is so fucking bad. Because the situation is dire. It's so gross right now. But there are two guys. They're going to get plus value for. And people, players, more so than the Knicks. more so to Chicago, more so than the Nets.

Players have demonstrated that they really like going, being, playing in Phoenix. Like, players fucking like Phoenix for whatever reason. I don't know. They love it. And so they can get off a KD, get off a Booker, get a lot of shit, and be fine again. Do you guys remember in Free Agency where Lamarcus Aldras was looking around and he had that meeting with Phoenix where like Tyson Chandler popped out of a closet and it's just like, hey, you want you to go? down to Phoenix. Those are the good old days, man.

They really were. See, I disagree with that assessment, though. Like, I actually think if you look at it, I worry that what their return they get will actually be worse than a team that has control over their own draft picks. So the Sons don't control their draft until like 2050 at this point. I think it's actually 2031, which is the longest at this point that they can go to. So in 2032, they're hoping to get their future back.

I think KD being, a free agent after the following season will limit the return. I also wonder if like Katie's starting to ward off some teams where it's just like, why am I going to ruin my future in order to bring KD in? And so will they get like a helpful player or two and like a pick or two? Sure. But I don't know if that's going to be a total bonanza like they gave up in order to get him. Fine, right?

And so I think eventually that will mean Devin Booker will probably want out. Then you will probably get a big old haul. But I don't think the picks you're getting from those teams are going to, to be bad, it's just like the calves and the wolves. Like, you're getting back bad picks as opposed to the main asset of tanking is that your own picks are the worst. By and large, I would say, like, 95% of the time, the picks that ultimately land you the superstar from tanking are your own picks because you are so putrid.

They don't have that possibility. And so I think they're going to be treading water in the, like, very mediocre zone for a very long time. That's like, what, like seven seasons out? I don't see where the help is coming from because there's no like direct path to a full-blown superstar as opposed to actually signing someone in free agency, which they might do, but really hasn't happened in the past for the sons. I think we're just zooming past the part where Devin Booker is a top 15, 12 player in the league right now. Totally. Like no questions asked.

He is that he will have a market that is substantial. I take everything that you're saying seriously as far as like how rebuilding teams actually rebuilding. a young guy who can hoop for Devin Booker. It don't got to be all picks. Like, get your, he's not going to be Shagil just Alexander, but get your thing like

that in the trade along with picks. Like it doesn't have to be... Can we do this out then? So let's say, so I think Houston's an interesting example, right? Like I actually think they would be better off waiting for Booker than going for K.A.

And it sounds like the rumor mill kind of suggests the same thing. Let's just say they're going for Devin Booker. They're at the negotiating table. Who are we given up here? Let's say it's like Cam Whitmore. Thank you. I don't know right on down. I think it's more like Jalen Green, Cam Whitmore, Reed Shepard, perhaps, all very good young players. I don't know if that's like functionally changing your situation. Well, and so that's when you hang up the phone and you call Sam Presti and you say, I would like Jalen Williams and I would like a collection of your first round picks that you have in store, right?

Like you start getting pack, or you call the Utah Jazz, you get that 2031 pick back. And maybe by then they have some actually like developed prospects that they can send you. That's still like seven years from now. That's a long time to be sucking. I'm not saying that they will be sucking that long. I'm just saying like, I think Devin Booker creates a healthy market in the event that he wants to leave. And I'm not jumping to the conclusion that he wants to leave.

I think he could be one of those guys who just sort of hangs around. God knows he has already been on enough bad Phoenix Suns teams and maybe that has like conditioned him to it or maybe it'll make him want to leave faster. But ultimately, if you have a player as good as Devin Booker, I just don't see how low things can really, really go as far as like overall franchise. It's like the vibes are horrendous.

No one is enjoying playing for the Phoenix Suns right now. But as far as the future of the team, you still have Devin Booker and you still have whatever future you have with Kevin Durant. I hear that. I just, I think it's going to be Devin Booker and like, Nas Reid just like hoping and pray and that they're going to fire up 53s a game per player and just like hoping that they could win a game because I like that. I love that. I would watch.

It could be funny. Yeah. Speaking of Nasreed though, do you guys have any like feel of where Kevin Durant could go? Because it seems like this is like a foregone conclusion at this point. Like do you have any favorites? Do you have any like ones that you want to see happen? I that I would like to see happen. My favorite one that I've heard is him going to the Wizards. Just go back home. Try to make them relevant. You won't have no championship expectations.

We've seen what happened with championship expectations for this guy the last, what, six years. It's been a waste of everybody's time. So why don't we go to opposite direction? Instead of a team chasing a championship, you go to a team that's just trying to become relevant. You're raising their floor several levels, finally giving you a hometown something to love and to rue for.

I'm stealing this from Carmelo Anthony, who's from, you know, Baltimore area, Maryland, D.C. area guy. But, yeah, I would love to see him go to the Wizards. Because this whole KD, get him to a contender, hope that he stays happy, even as he gets every single thing that he wants and blah, blah, blah. Like, I'm sick at. Like, go to that.

a DC. Know I mean? Build something with Kulibali? Yes. Build something with Kulabali and Sarr. Sending Kevin Durant at what is Kevin Durant? 36 years old right now.

To play with the Washington Wizards. After he's having, for everything that's going on in Phoenix, one of the best like individual scoring seasons in the league in terms of like self-generated offense. Like he's still Kevin Durant. And you wanted to go out there and babysit Blah Kulabali? Saw looking like a pleep piece You never know what he can do next to KD?

I would love KD on one of these teams that has a good defense and doesn't quite know what to do offensively yet The Miami Heat are desperate for shit right now They're desperate for something to go their way offensively And they are blowing leads left and right The last two times he moved teams They did And they thought they were getting him during the Brooklyn time

They thought they were getting him on the sun swooped in And this kind of thing is why I was reluctant to put the heat on a list like this, despite the fact that it's not looking great right there right now. I have too much respect for Riles. Too much respect, two stars who are young enough to put some things together. Like that team is going to change shape. And maybe it changes shape for someone like Kevin Durant. Maybe the Orlando Magic could get in a conversation like that.

He's the next Will Chamberlain. I mean I'm Joe Chablin. Sorry. Oh, Colomware. You mean Bill Russell? Bill Russell. Wow. One thing that I heard being bandied about as kind of an offshoot of the Rockets conversation is like, could the spurs get in on that?

Is that a crazy idea? Is that moving too much too fast for them to trade for Fox? It would be very unswheres of them. It absolutely would. I don't really see it for that reason. And frankly, as far as people you want Victor Webbenyama and Deeran Fox to be able to grow into roles with, Kevin Durant is not the guy I would handpick for that. but maybe if they decide they want to push fast and like really steer into whatever they think is going right for them, maybe you could talk yourself into it.

I don't see it though. I think Miami and Houston are the frontrunners for all the reasons you guys laid out. I think Miami is probably what he needs, the sort of rigorous culture that will keep him in line and like keep everyone else in line and just let him do whatever he wants to do. Houston has the assets. You think KD wants to be kept in line by an organization? I think he wants to not deal with that stuff. I think he just wants to do what he does,

which is be the best possible basketball player and hand off the managerial duties because let me tell you, trying to do both manager and participant. It becomes tough sometimes. Does it? Yes. You want to tell us about it?

Get your ass out of here. I think the reunion stuff is fun. There's no way he goes back to O.K. but like sometimes Katie could be so like left field with these things I can see it happening Golden State like I could also see him like getting to the summer and being like

actually I've changed my opinion entirely with Golden State let me get back to there and I just just want to get back with Jimmy Butler not have the version of the son that we didn't have. What if they guarantee him a shit ton of money like do we think the team that gets KD

is going to guarantee three years of max money? I have no idea. Like a lot of Joe on a beat? this summer? Probably. I think Katie can age pretty well just because of how he shoots it, but and if you do trade firm, I assume it comes with the territory.

The one other team I do want to talk about just before we go here is the wolves. I don't know if you guys saw that around the trade deadline where it's like Edwards and Katie are friends. I don't know. I like it. The wolves are a little bit more bold than I think people

give them credit for like the go bear trade. That was fucking bold. Like the town's roof. Yeah. So they seem to be more, they're at the table with an itchy finger sort of team and I can see them pulling something like that off. It also felt like the thing at the time

where it was registering interest even when from a practical perspective a trade like that was almost impossible to execute. It was like, we just want to put this in your head, Kevin Durant slash Phoenix Suns that like we're out here.

We want to have this conversation. Let's talk in the summer. This is a Rudy swap. I don't even know mechanically what would swing it at this stage. McDaniel's probably involved. involves somehow.

Randall's an expiring. So if he opts into his next year, he's an expiring at that point. He becomes a little bit easier to trade. That's most of the way.

You're like, Justin, let me tell you something. He's opting into his deal next year. I bet. He does not. He does not have

a scintillating market, bro. And then like Nause Reed, free agent, can he get thrown into the mix there if he's already on his way out? It could happen.

enjoy that. It'd be kind of fun, and it's kind of a left field option that I don't think anyone's expecting. I do like it. Sun's nine players under contract next year, $208 million they would already be over the second apron. Not on your guys' list, though. Nope, not on my list. Lightwork.

Lightwork. Have you seen the housing market? Their owner is, he's good for it. That's true. All right, let's wrap it there. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on Productions. Thank you to Ben Cruz for filling in on the video side of things. We'll be back.

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