The Ringer NBA Show - The NBA Return Forecast, Bojan Bogdanovic’s Surgery, and the Knicks’ Future. Plus: ‘The Last Dance’ Finale. | The Mismatch

Episode Date: May 19, 2020

We run through the latest news around the NBA, including Tillman Fertitta’s comments to Donald Trump about the return of the NBA, Jazz wing Bojan Bogdanovic’s wrist surgery, and the Knicks’ new assistant GM, Frank Zanin (1:49). Then, we give our closing thoughts on ESPN’s Michael Jordan documentary ‘The Last Dance’ (35:30). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. The Ringer is launching a new podcast from the guys who brought you a Cespitus family barbecue called Baseball Barbecue. Hosted by Jake Mintz and Jordan Schusterman, they're bringing you the good, the bad, and the utterly bizarre corners of the baseball world and everything that makes it special. Throughout the off season, they'll dive into the rabbit hole on some of their favorite fascinations, from the home run derby to baseball brawls and much more. Once the season returns, they'll break down the latest MLB news and development. You can subscribe to baseball barbecue on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me this Tuesday, as he does every Tuesday, is Kevin O'Connor from The Ringer.com, aka Kevin Obama, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Candyland, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin. Burno, what's going on, buddy?

Well, we have had a lot of news since we last spoke. It does seem like it will not be. too terribly long before I think we'll probably get news of a plan that is being instituted. We started to see some more sports come back this past weekend. Golf came back. NASCAR came back. And it seems like a lot of the professional leagues are putting their plans together as we speak. And you heard from the governor of California yesterday, the governor from New York yesterday. And so it seems like I think we might be in the home stretch, at least to, you know, a date where they're going to start.

some kind of truncated training camp and, uh, and then get whatever they're going to get underway. Aren't you feeling, aren't you feeling we're heading that way pretty fast? Yeah. Uh, you know, it's interesting that New York and California, which obviously have multiple teams are moving in that direction to having, you know, or being open to having games without fans. And that's because, you know, we've had all this talk about the possibility of a neutral site hosting games, Disney World, or Las Vegas, or other places that are in discussion, maybe multiple neutral sites. But what could still happen is what baseball is going to do, what the NFL is going to do,

or what they want to do, and that's having teams playing their home arenas. And that remains a possibility for the NBA. That has not been taken off the table. And as more states say they are open to having professional sports games without fans, that possibility from the conversations I've had with executives only seems like a more of a real possibility. And whether that happens for the summer, for finishing this season,

or whether it ends up being next season, that's something just to keep in mind that we won't necessarily have some sort of neutral site bubble here. Really? Teams could still be traveling. Wow. I totally expected a neutral site bubble, but you are hearing that there's a neutral site bubble,

there's a real possibility these could be in home arenas? Look, like I said, it's all still on the table. Yeah, right. The NBA, the safest option, the safest option here is clearly a neutral site because it can be more controlled by introducing flights and drivers, you know, the pilots, the drivers, there's more risk. By going to hotels, there's more risk. You're taking on more risk if teams are traveling.

And that's what the, what MLB and NFL and other leagues could potentially be doing. And the NBA, maybe they'll go down that path too. It remains to be seen. But my only point is, as more states do open up, it only naturally seems like that possibility would only increase. All right. Let's get to the next story, which is Tim Bond Temps reported yesterday that the NBA's draft lottery. And I know you are going to be doing a live IG chat as we record this on Tuesday morning. You're doing one this afternoon at three central.

four Eastern, is that right? Yep, four Eastern, one Pacific. Okay. The NBA's draft lottery won't take place Tuesday in Chicago as originally planned, but whenever it does happen, it does look like the same as it did last year. Since play was suspended March 11th due to the coronavirus pandemic, teams at the top of the standings have been curious about the league restarting because they are in pursuit of a championship. From the teams from the bottom, the focus has been on what the lottery is going to look like. although some will inevitably grumble about the order being determined by an incomplete regular season,

the belief among several executives is that the lottery is going to remain the same as scheduled before the pandemic. I wouldn't expect things to change. One executive with a lottery-bound team said executives brought up several potential reasons that the lottery wouldn't be tweaked because of the unusual circumstance in which the league finds it. One is the fact that every team in the league has played somewhere between 63 and 67 games, more than 75 percent. of its season, a representative sample. Did you think that they were going to, I guess I didn't, I haven't really thought about this all that much. You know, I was reading this story yesterday, but the NHL playing it out with just 24 of

their teams. And I had wondered aloud if, you know, if they were going to be, if all the teams were going to be involved whenever the NBA comes back. But I guess just whatever the standings look like at the. end of whatever they try to complete. And I don't know, I guess a couple weeks ago, I thought there was no chance they'd try to complete the regular season. And now it seems like that's at least significantly on the table that they would actually

try to finish the season two. Then you wouldn't have to worry about it at all. But I don't know. Had you thought about the lottery and what they were going to do with this? I mean, we'll see. Again, like I hate to be that guy, but everything's on the table. And nothing's been decided here. It is possible that they lock the standings.

And that's it, that this is what it's going to. be as it is today. And by the way, today would have been the NBA draft lottery. I'm missing being in Chicago. I'm missing having a deep dish pizza. I'm missing being locked in that lottery room and seeing the reactions like I was last year for the first time. And I'm missing seeing the disappointment from fans who inevitably lose the lottery. Granted, there's no Zion level prize this year in the draft. But I'm a little disappointed waking up this morning and not having the lottery. And we'll see what ends up happening. You mentioned the NHL. It is fascinating that they had a proposal for a 24-team playoff up from 16 teams being the norm in the NHL like it is for

the NBA. That, as far as I know, doesn't seem to be a distinct possibility for the NBA. But again, we'll see. We'll see what ends up happening because I'm really intrigued by the idea of an expanded playoff system considering everything. It's like we talked about a bunch of times, Chris. It would be really cool to see the league experiment here considering the circumstances. And I know, look, you would be absolutely crushed not to get to see Larry Nance playing for the Cavs for the rest of the season, you know. Oh, geez.

They're horrible. Them not playing again would just be absolutely awful. I mean, I got to see those big lineups. Larry Nance at the 3, 74 minutes the season. I'll stop now. Yep. So Tillman for Tita, the Rocket's owner, is one of the voices that we have on this. Now, he was actually meeting with the president because of his role as a restaurateur.

But President Trump did ask him about sports stuff saying in front of the group of selected people there that he's the owner of the Rockets. And he said, will you finish the season or not? And he said, I think there's talk about finishing the season playing X number of games. The players need to get paid. And right now they're taking a 25% pay cut. They own 50% of our revenue, unlike the other sports. And so they want that revenue, even if it's not the people in the stands revenue, so that they can get paid. He said, I think that we would play some games just to get it going and create interest and then go right into the playoffs.

But I think it'll be great for America. We're all missing sports and everybody wants to see those great teams. in the NBA. And so not a lot of specifics from Tillman-Fortita, but at least there is somebody who is privy to those meetings and at least his view on it. And so it does sound like, I don't know, most of the things you gauge from the last week and a half or not,

that there will be a just jump straight into the playoffs, but rather whether they're finishing out the whole thing or they're finishing out by playing 10 games or whatever is the amount of games before you get to the playoffs, it seems like that's what the plan will probably look like, right? Well, that's what I reported three weeks ago. That is the plan, but it doesn't mean

that's the plan they're going to end up going with because we don't know what it's going to end up looking like whenever it comes to whenever it comes to playing games. You very well might make that your initial plan, but then have to change course, depending on what testing looks like, if there's an outbreak within a team or something like that.

But certainly, As for Tita said, as, as we've been discussing, it does seem that the NBA's number one intentions are to complete as much of the regular season as they possibly can, which is why with the lottery standings, it's still really too soon to really say, because if teams are able to play 10 more regular season games and get to 73, 75 total games played, realistically, then the lottery standings would change because you're not getting to lock it after just 63 games if he can play 10 more games, that wouldn't really make any sense. So we'll see what happens over time, but it is encouraging to have one of the 30 team owners

continuing to suggest publicly saying that the intentions are to play X number of games in the regular season. And hopefully they can do it safely. That was clearly not the most interesting thing that took place in that, though. Fritia said, I should have realized that it was going to be a bad year for China when my general manager tweeted out, you know, freedom for Hong Kong. that started my year. Trump told Fertita that Mora

did cause you a little ruckus and asked if Morae still works for the rockets. Of course, Petita said yes. When Fritita answered affirmatively about More's employment, Trump quipped, he must be pretty good. Replied Fertita, it's a trick question, but he is.

Goodness. When I saw that clip tweeted out, I just couldn't believe the words coming out of his mouth. I couldn't believe it, Chris. Hilarious question by Trump, though, honestly. Like, he's like, oh, he must be pretty good. You know what I mean? Like, he's just looking at it as a businessman. And I honestly think Donald Trump has no idea, right?

Like, what a mess that all was, right? Like, and how much it got talked about. I mean, he's got, he's got a whole bunch of other things going on that he's clearly worried about, including reporting on himself. but the and whatever anybody's saying about him, much less about Daryl Bore. But so from his perspective, if he didn't know that he just played the dummy, which is like, wait, this guy's still your general manager? Like, oh, he must be pretty good at what he does. And it actually spoke a lot to, I think anybody from outside the NBA, when, you, I mean,

we all realize that if Daryl Bore is not as good at his job, as he is, like any other guy gets fired. It's just the way it is. Daryl Morey is great at his job. He's great at it. And I'm going to say Moray a thousand times so that I get the tweets. Stop saying it Moray. I mean, I've been saying it to myself this entire time.

I mean, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what's worse. You saying Daryl Morey or me saying Jerry Risenorf. Risendorf is a hundred times a word. I just use an alternate Prunzination and I don't put extra I don't call him Darrell Mowgli

change his name I don't change the guy's name I don't know I'm not I'm not sure like where Risendorf came from I just there's certain words that I read you know like even even like my whole life

I've always had a hard time with Brian Russell in my head I see that B-R-Y-O-N and my head says Byron. Oh, you know what? I defend you completely because it's bogus. That's not a, that's not how you spell Brian.

And forgive me to. You can spell Brian any way you want to. You can do B-R-I-N. You can do B-R-Y-N. Why are you, are you somebody who doesn't think you can have Brian spelled with a Y? I think you can. But then it's A-N.

Why? It can't. No, it can't. Then everybody's going to call you Byron because that's how it looks when you read it. If you had a why in your name, I would think that's a little different. If it was a why instead of an eye, I think that's a little different. I'd be like, oh, that's, that's cool.

Some flare from Chris's parents. There's not Bryons everywhere. What are you talking about, Kevin? Like, I mean, we shouldn't even be arguing about this. How many people have you met in your life named Brian that spell a B-R-Y-O-N? He's the only person you've ever heard of ever. Maybe. With that spelling.

If somebody says, hi, my name's. Brian, I don't think about, oh, how do they spell their name? Either a Y or an I or an I or an O. I don't think that. I just, because you figure they don't have some kind of incredibly goofy spelling. How are we arguing about spelling of names here? Because it's wrong. That's, that's ridiculous.

Not every name is John or Amanda or or, or Bob or Lucy. There's different spellings of names. Bob. just a drive by shooting of me for no reason, Kev. Just unbelievable. But what if he spelled it B-O-B-B-B? You'd think that's ridiculous. No, I wouldn't.

No, I wouldn't. Yes, you would. I grew up loving Jimmy Hendricks, J-I-M-I. And yes, you could say, oh, Jimmy Hendricks can do that because he's Jimmy Hendricks. Oh, stop. anybody could do that no if your parents named you Kevin and it was K-E-V-U-N that's stupid oh yes it is yes it is stupid all right next next door this is why we're the mismatch because we organically argue about stupid shit like this because I've got because I've got a brain

before we before we move on I got to point out that Moray is just your version of mum that's it that's my version we found it that's right Never mind. A lot of people around the world say, Mum. Chris says one of one. It says Moray. Is your full name,

Robert? Yeah. Bob. Yeah. You're Robert Wagner. That was a famous actor, right? I am, yeah. And you changed it to a famous football player.

Unbelievable. I know. I just had to make sure that I was never the first person to come up in the Google search. Wait, were you named Robert Wagner? Like, I mean, after Robert Wagner?

No, no, I think it's just a coincidence. Oh, it's just a coincidence. Maybe your mom had a gigantic crush on Robert Wagner, though. You never know. Could be.

If that's the case, my dad doesn't know, I don't think. You should ask, Bobby. This is important stuff to know. I'll report back on our Friday show. It'd be the age or age. You know what I mean? I remember my mom loved. My mom still watches like Tom Selleck shows.

My mom still loves Tom Selleck. You know, I asked her the other day. I said, what were you watching? She said, Magnum P.I. And I was like, what? Magnum B.I. came out like 100 years ago. All right. Next story.

Boyan Bogdanovich is undergoing season-ending surgery on his wrist. Of course, we know the Utah Jazz at Western Conference Playoff Contender. Bogdanovich is going to undergo surgery today, according to Adrian Wardenowski, to repair ligament in his right wrist. He injured the wrist in late 2019, then played in. considerable discomfort. Decision to have surgery gives Bogdanovitch a chance to fully recover in anticipation of the start of next season. And so, look, this was already going to be a team that people were paying very close attention

to, given the incredible fracture that is inevitable in the locker room and all the stories about Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert and the rift between them after the way it all went down with the coronavirus pandemic at the very beginning. Utah, like, they don't have enough without Bogdanovich. You know, I know this is a story in the middle of a pandemic where sports news isn't that big, but they would absolutely be a very dangerous team if you get Conley playing really well along with Mitchell. That can be a devastating back court. And then with those wing guys, now I'd imagine they'll just put Joe Ingalls back, you know,

do is place in the starting lineup. And they'll be fine, but I do think they probably went from their ceiling is significantly lower, right? If it's a team that you could foresee maybe coming out of what could be a weird playoff season anyway in the West,

I don't, I don't think that's possible without Bogdanovich, Kev. He's an important player, man. You know, you think about first of all, like just basically he's a 20 point per game score that they're losing. Number one, just so you You look at that basic stat.

But number two, just his versatility on the court for that team with the size he provides at six foot eight. He's not a lockdown defender, but with his switchability at that size to hang around with quicker guys on the perimeter. Or he can defend some bigger, stronger guys inside. And then on offense, you can use him any way you need to. You can run him as a pick and roll ball handler. You can run him around screens. You can use him as a spot-up shooter. He's a versatile scorer for that team.

And it shows them the numbers how much worse they are without him. Gobert, Mitchell, and Bogdanovich, that trio, when those three guys are on the court, they've played over 1,400 minutes together. Those guys play a lot together, and they outscore teams by seven points per 100 possessions. You pull Bogdanovich out of that lineup with just Mitchell and Gobert, they get outscored by eight points for 100 possessions.

And this is a small sample size here, of course, of only 150 minutes with just two of those three. But the fact is that it really shows, again, Just his versatility on both ends of the floor and the importance of that team and where he was being replaced was with Ingalls, as you said, but also with Mike Conley, who was really struggled this year. Conley, of course, he's a smaller player. He's a point guard, but he can take on some of that versatility on the offensive end with the playmaking ability, with the off ball scoring ability, and some on ball scoring too. So Conley is really going to need to be Mike Conley if games are come back this summer. because without Bogdanovich,

it severely limits their chances of making any noise in the playoffs. It's fascinating, too, that he's doing it now. They play through discomfort, and I guess, you know, they probably just got to the point where it was like, okay, if you don't get it done now,

we're not going to get you back for next season at the beginning. And so given the way everything is still in flux, let's just go ahead and make the decision and get you ready for next year. Yeah, exactly. And I believe, Wodge did report that during workouts that the injury was re-agravated.

So maybe at one point it seemed like he would be fine but then it got worse. The Jazz also lost someone out of their front office. Shams Sharani reported the Knicks are finalizing hiring Jazz vice president of player personnel Walt Perrin

as assistant general manager as they reshuffle front office under Leon Rose. Perrin is a well-respected executive who has worked in the jazz organization for 19 years. Upon this news last night, Donovan Mitchell tweeted out, going to miss my guy Walt, real happy for him, deserves this opportunity, definitely going to miss him. So look, I mean, you can't get any, you don't see a ton of players speaking out for

general managers or somebody that leaves the organization. It's not all that common. and yet here's obviously a guy that made an impact in the first two years of Donovan Mitchell's career. The Donovan Mitchell felt motivated to talk about how much he would miss him. This is what I talked about when those guys got the job and you knew that Leon Rose and inevitably William Wesley World Wide West would be there helping the Knicks. And that as long as they were, as long as you get some guys with some instituted. knowledge, those guys are always very, very valuable. Get some guys with some institutional knowledge about the NBA, the way it works, old relationships, this kind of stuff. Then now

that's how you put together a front office, I think, if you are, if you're new guys and have not done it before, because there's certainly going to be questions and a lot of things you haven't been through before. And so having somebody with 19 years of experience that's held in very high regard. I've got to believe this is just a very good get. You know, I've been, I've been very optimistic towards the Knicks, Kevin, and because, me too. You know, I've, no, I mean, I've told you, I've known, you know, Leon Rose, I've been around

him a lot over the years. He, he was around, he was omnipresent around Calipari's Memphis Tigers teams, as was worldwide west and especially during the Derek Rose run. And then after that, like, I mean, I told you he's in my hotel room just this past summer with Jonas Valchunis. He represents him or did, right, before he took this job. He also represented O.J. Mayo when O.J. was here in Memphis. And so I'm not going to act like we're friends, but I do know him and have been around him.

And I know a lot of people that do know him. and I just like this guy knows players and this guy has a way with words he's a charming guy you know can also be the no nonsense guy which is good for New York and I think between him and World Wide West and you get some established guys around him I I think there's real reason for hope I do I do I think there's real reason for hope it's going to take a while and you know that's not a place where it's easy to take a while to do anything but I think with some patience I I think I'd bet on them I do. I think I bet on him.

I bet on the next two. They have Frank Nilequino on their team. Oh, for God's sakes. That's a, that'll be the first move. That'll be the first move. Get him out. I'm just kidding about that, even though I like Frank Nilequina a lot. You know, we've discussed back and forth quite a bit the past year with the Knicks. They do have quite a bit of assets. Granted, they gave up Chris Debs, Porzingas. They do have the two first round picks from Dallas. They have other young talent on the team. Granted, some of it is underdeveloped. or disappointing so far, like Kevin Knox hasn't reached expectations,

but they do have young talent nonetheless, R.J. Barrett, Mitchell Robinson, Frank Nillikina, and so on. And so for this Knicks team having Leon Rose, and granted, World Wide West isn't technically part of the Knicks front office, Adams Agoria from Forbes did report at the time in February when this hire or whatever it was was announced or was reported that he did say that World War Wide West will be intimately involved with the Nix, considering the close relationship that Rose and Wes have had for many decades now. And, you know, if that's the case, of course,

World Wide West, you know, we'll be recruiting players to the Nix. And for this Knicks team, I mean, it all starts, like I said, this would have been draft lottery night. And we would have seen the NICs who have the sixth best, currently have the sixth best lottery odds at 37% of getting into the top four, nine percent of getting number one. overall, it would be fascinating to see whether they end up number one or they stay at number six, what this team ends up doing, because you can look at their roster and really, they need anything. Like just taking RJ Barrett wouldn't preclude them from taking another potential primary

ball handler like a lamello ball, like in Anthony Edwards. But for this team, I'm especially interested if they stay at six, because I still think that might be the best range for getting a guy. and a fair value contract. It would be less money than the number one pick, which would make it easier to sign a guy by retaining cap space in the future. And today on the Ringer,

we put up our new mock draft, and we did the lottery. I did the picks for the top 14 teams, and for the Knicks, I gave them Tyrese Halliburton, a sophomore guard from Iowa State, and he's also, Fort Worth, a CAA clients,

which is where Leon Rose is coming from, CAA. That did factor into my decision in putting them there. But from a basketball perspective, Halliburton would be a high IQ guy that could really come in and help run the show there, which whether they add stars in the near future or not through free agency or trade, he's the type of guy that I would hope the Knicks with their New Look front office would look for in the draft this year. Well, I can tell you this, going back to just the West thing very quickly.

You know, if you're talking about how do you get players to want to be someplace, There's very few people in the world. I would rather have in a meeting trying to convince a player to come play in New York than worldwide West. This guy is the most connected guy ever. And like I told you, he was around. And the only time I could remember, this is a great story. Actually, I'm going to tie it into our next subject. So how about this?

So Wes West and Leon Rose are like thickest thieves with Calgary, right? And so the brother of Derek Rose, Reggie Rose, was always around. Like he was just here the entire season in the 08 season when Memphis made it to the final game against Kansas. And so I think everybody had this expectation that when Derek Rose leaves school, he's going to be with West. He's going to be with Leon Rose, right? That like you could, they could kind of trust Cal Perry to keep all of the agents and all the people away. And then when it came time to go to the NBA, that he would go. And then he didn't.

He didn't sign there. And I don't think it was because anybody thought that they were going to look into it or that anything nefarious went on. But the story went that the brother, Reggie, who was like riding on team planes and whatever, which was NCAA violations and they had to take their banner down because of it, for God's sakes. But the brother, he was like going back to Chicago every once in a while. and guess who got his hooks in the brother and ended up signing him?

Wait for it. B.J. Armstrong. Ooh, interesting. How about that? And so that's where he signed. Coming out of college. Derek, he signed with B.J. Armstrong and their group. Because B.J. Armstrong was, I guess, you know, he had gotten his hooks in the brother when he was going back to Chicago.

I mean, it was crazy because everybody thought Derek was going to be with Leon and Wes for sure, for sure. And, but those guys, I mean, like, they, talent evaluation, getting things done. Those guys are, they're smart guys, man. And they are big time in the basketball world. And Worldwide West is like, no, I mean, he has got the most unbelievable life ever. Like, nobody really knows anything. People have tried to write stories about him and whatever else.

And it's like, you'll see him on the sidelines of a Monday night football game. and then the next night, you know, sitting on the front row at the national championship with JZ and Bionte or something. I mean, it's crazy. This guy is so well connected. It's the damnedest thing. So, yeah, I think, and now they hire some guy that's a, you got 19 years experience as very highly regarded from the jazz. I say good job by Leon and West there in New York. You know, and I think the Knicks are a good example of a team.

It's like you and I have gone back and forth a lot of. teams that should blow it up. Some of the bad teams in the league right now, Knicks are 21 and 45. It's hard not to feel somewhat optimistic about some of these bad teams. And the Knicks, despite the fact that it's been decades now of

sadness and losing and disappointment, right now the place the team is in, you have to feel a little bit good. Granted, this summer it's going to be pivotal for them and the types of moves that they make. And by the way, you know, with Chris Paul potentially being a looom,

possibility, that could be one of those decisions that they make this summer if they were to make a big trade. That could be a lure for future free agents. But with everything that's going on with the coronavirus pandemic, that throws a wrench in a potential plan like that because we just don't know what's going to happen with the salary cap. And so that could be the type of thing that for the Knicks and some of these other teams that had big plans in the offseason, whether trade or free agency,

it might hurt that optimism moving forward for these teams that are just trying to dig their way out of the bottom of the barrel. Yeah, and also a great reason to have somebody with some institutional knowledge in the NBA. And you know very well, I see it in my local market all the time because you know Zach Klyman, who's the youngest general manager in the league. but they hired Glenn Grunwald, who coincidentally helped the Knicks to great success when they last had some great success. Glenn Grunwald, part of the organization, Rich Cho, who was longtime general manager in Charlotte, plays a role with analytics and cap. And so, like, you get these guys. If you're going to be just coming into it for your first time, get guys that have been around it for a long time to be able to help you with all your. your questions that you have about this and that and the way things work. And so that's why I think

there's a, there's a real wisdom in doing that rather than just like, oh, yeah, we can do this. Because there are, you know, look, it's like any job, right? There's just some things that you only learn with experience. And certainly relationships you only get with experience. Sure. You know, and James Dolan obviously has his flaws as an owner. There are many of them. But the one thing I will say is that he typically has done a good job of letting his front office make basketball decisions. He has kept his hands off, which is unlike other owners who are, you know, steering what they do with a draft pick or what they do with a trade. There was, you know, the story or last week, Doc Rivers said, Donald Sterling said he doesn't like white players and they almost didn't sign JJ Reddick.

You know, you see Tillman Fertita kind of meddling with some of the things that they used some Rockets do it, the amount of money that they spend fear of going into the luxury tax. There's situations like this extreme or having to do with money that affect the organization as a whole. And Dolan does that in other ways with his treatment of fans, the reaction to media and all that, which has been discussed plenty. But the one thing that gives me some optimism for the NICS is that he typically lets his front office do what they want.

And in the past, that hasn't worked because of poor hiring. But with what they have right now, seems to be a good team. And if that team is allowed to do with what they want, that should bode well for the next moving forward. Hey, Chris, before we move on,

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Go to getroman.com slash ringer NBA for a free online visit and start your new skincare routine today. That's get roman.com slash ringer NBA. Eligibility requirements and additional terms do apply. And now back to the dispatch. Okay, so I mentioned BJ Armstrong a couple of minutes. ago, unrelated to the last dance, but he was one of the portions of the last dance that we saw. It all concluded on Sunday night with episodes 9 and 10. We have been talking our way through this as the weeks have gone on.

It was five incredible weeks of television. I absolutely loved it. And if they made 10 more episodes, I'd watch as many episodes as you could make. of this. I'd watch Michael Jordan sitting there reacting to what other people say for two hours. Oh, for sure. I mean, look, last night, I checked Twitter before I went

to bed and there were like, I had tons on my timeline of people like putting different songs to the headphones that he was wearing. Did you see these? There's like a meme going around with all the different songs to the head as soon as that aired on TV,

I was like, this is going to become a meme. 100%. A hundred percent. We've all had that moment. We've all had a moment just like Jordan did. Yeah. Some dude said to me, some dude said to me last night. I don't know if you saw it.

That it would say Chris Vardo, when Kevin O'Connor mentions Larry Nance at the three for the five million times. Actually, I would love if some of our listeners would overdub, like a fun part of us arguing and like to Michael Jordan just kind of being giddy listening to the show. Hey, I got to tell you, I went and listened to the song that was, you know, I saw Kenny Lattimore tweet out, you know, what he had sent him and what the song was. And it's more shocking than many of the, to me, than many of the other. I don't know. I don't know what I thought Michael Jordan would be listening to. I really don't. Like, I guess nothing should's

surprised me, but it was like, this guy's like a slow jam guy. He said they were friends, right? But it was like, I didn't know, I didn't know Kenny Latimore before that. There's no, I bet he's had more sales the last five days than he's had in 20 years. Seriously. It was, it was days like this. Yeah, that's right. That was a song, right? And Kenny Latimore himself tweeted that out, confirm that he, I mean, all I'm saying is, that ain't exactly like a, I don't know. That's not a song. Was he coming? from practice. He was going to the game, wasn't he?

One or the other, yeah. Yeah, before, it was before tip off. Yeah. Five or six hours before tip off. Yeah, right. That's not, I don't know, that wouldn't be in my pump me up playlist, but sometimes you just want to chill out. Maybe so.

Sometimes you don't need to be pumped up. You need to be chilled out, man. No, it's probably good for him. He didn't, the last thing he needed was an edge. You know, he's already he's already pretty high strong. do you think you know what so I don't know if he nipped this in the bud

at the beginning of this by saying you know that basically he thought people were going to like him less because of this or that people were going to think something of him because of this

now do you think knowing that as a precursor and that he said that that I have not seen one person react that they liked Michael Jordan less after watching the last dance and in fact the complete opposite it was true, right?

No kidding. What is he talking about? Yeah, I don't know. People wouldn't like, I mean, come on. I was kept waiting. I kept waiting and waiting for the moment. When am I going to hate MJ? When am I going to hate MJ?

When am I going to have? Well, I just got liking it more and more. Yeah, I mean, look, because he took out probably all the parts that would really make you hate it. I don't, yeah, maybe they, I'm sure certain moments weren't put in there. But with that said, they did get into the stuff that we've, been discussing each week, the conspiracy theories. They got into the gambling conspiracy. They got into what happened with his father.

They got into a lot of the negatives surrounding him. They got into the treatment of some of his teammates and the perception of how he was with his teammates. They got into the disconnect. I mean, dude, in episode nine, I was crying while Steve Kerr was talking about his dad and thinking to myself like, you know, far different stories, but, you know, losing my dad, you know, in February, just how hard that is. and then for him to say that him and MJ never even discussed it.

Yeah. The fact that each of their fathers were murdered. And that was shocking to me. I didn't know that story. Did you? I didn't know that they didn't. I knew Steve Kerr's father's story, but I didn't know and I wouldn't have expected that Kerr and Jordan never even

discussed it. And granted, it's uncomfortable for people to talk about things. I'm a bit shocked that two teammates that spend so much time together didn't talk about something like that. And to me, it stood as an example of the disconnect Michael Jordan felt from the rest of his team. And they touched on this at the end when Phil Jackson did that ritual, well, they all wrote something down. And MJ wrote a poem. And they all burnt that. And that was a moment that his teammates saw his emotions.

They saw the connection with the teammates. we didn't hear the poem necessarily but we heard about it and it's just interesting to me the type of person he was I wonder if he was almost too big of a star at the time that it was almost impossible for him to connect

with his quote unquote normal teammates yeah I also think like you are you are you are very good at talking about things expressing yourself you don't mind you know a stranger knowing you know, what's going on with maybe even sometimes your most personal business and that kind of

stuff. And, and I, I told you, like, there was, through, through everything that you went through through over the course of the last year, me witnessing it, and how much good you brought to the table and, and, and making people have the courage to be able to talk about this stuff, um, that that was something that I, that I envied. And so I kind of relate to the other side more. Again, that maybe this is why this is the mismatch. I was the one that when, when, when, the devastating moment in my life, I didn't talk to anybody. I didn't. I held it all in. And it's hard to do that. I mean, it is hard, right? And I probably should have. I probably should have. But I didn't, I was one of those, I didn't want to put anybody else's grief. I don't want

people worrying about me. I constantly want people to be happy. I'm trying to cheer them up or trying to make them laugh or whatever. And so that's my personality. And I didn't, I never talk to anybody. Honestly, I didn't. I just held it all in. Unless your name is Brian with an O. Yeah, right. Then it's off the table. Yes. And then I would have told him, I would confide in you my feelings, my deepest feelings, but your name is spelled so stupidly that I cannot. In the case that I had a friend named Brian. No, but I mean, so I get it. I get Michael Jordan not talking.

about it. Right? I do. I get that because. Well, you also did it like Brian Russell. So you and MJ have that in common. Yeah, right. We get maybe that's where I got it from. Right. Okay. Couple of things, though, that I do want to say. Look, these guys did an unbelievable job putting this together. And I was listening to Simmons and Rosillo talk about this and the grand challenges of even putting together episodes nine and 10. There were a couple of things, though that when you watch them that I wish would have been different. And I know some of that is beyond their control. I felt like we got a lot less of the Utah side of anything than we did with a lot of the other.

You know, I felt like we heard a lot. And some of that was the good personalities. Isaiah Thomas and Reggie Miller and other people that were involved in those games and were on the other side of those games. even some Nick stuff with the people that did speak but the jazz I mean the only guy we heard from at all

and that's a team that played them twice in the finals the only guy was John Stockton who is boring as all hell and that was it so like there wasn't like there I get it it it's a Jordan documentary but in order to shape it I thought it was always better

when and I would imagine they probably asked Jerry Sloan, they asked Carl Malone, they asked Brian Russell, they probably asked a bunch of guys and nobody did it, right? But Stockton being the only one and Stockton being, I mean, let's just be fair, he's the lamest interview ever. Like, you know, that was, that one I thought hurt. the lack of being able to fully shape that

and kind of get the other side's angle a little more. That one, that was something I wished. And then the whole presentation of the, you know, where it makes it sound like Jerry Krause is a piece of crap and the only reason, and he's the reason they didn't run it back and whatever else. And then Michael Jordan saying, you know, I wish we could have run it back.

and whatever. Like, there are so many obvious, like, details involved in that that 22 years later, it's a little simple. I would 100% argue, like, what you shouldn't have done is, you know, piss off your coach so bad and have that bad of a relationship that it was ever called the last dance in the first place. But after that entire year and Bill Jackson not wanting to be a part of it. And the whole, like, we cannot accept that Scotty Pippen would have signed there. Scotty Biven didn't even want to play that last year. He was so mad about how grossly underpaid he was. And so now you're telling me, you're going to go back to him and say, hey, you can make 70 million in Houston or sign a one-year deal for $14 million. When we've already established that the guy was underpaid and he had this fear of it could

all be taken away from him because of what happened to his father and what happened to his brother. I mean, for God's sake, he grew up with two people in wheelchairs in his house. you think that guy's going to, who was already angry, was going to sit down and say, okay, I'll run it back for one more year for a $14 million deal. Like, no way. Like, keeping that team together was not as, I feel, as easy as it was presented by Michael at the end of that. And I think that's probably, with Jerry Krause being dead, you know, I don't know, you probably could have gotten the other side of that.

And Jerry Reinsdorf just playing dumb just made me want to puke. I mean, it made me want to puke. because he let this guy get run over with a truck in this documentary. And if I know anything, it's that in the end, trust me, the owner makes the calls. The owner makes the calls. There was nothing that that guy didn't sign off on. And so to then just put it at Jerry Krause's feet is bullshit to me. Oh, yeah.

I mean, and that's another example of when owner meddling affects front office decision making. Jerry Krause, you know, obviously had his flaws with, you know, the ego with the jealousy aspect, but he was a sensational general manager in assembling that team. And certainly one of the main reasons, as Reinsdorf did allude to with his statement, was the amount of money required to pay those guys. But that wouldn't, but it's worth the investment. Was it really worth the $25, 30 million dollars? and luxury tax to blow that up. Hell no. Of course not. It was not.

It was a poor investment to blow that up and to save any money that you did. You haven't won since then. This team, as Jordan mentioned, missed an opportunity to win a seventh championship. Even if they lost Pippin, even if they lost him, they still had a stellar roster. Maybe it wouldn't have won a seven championship a fourth in a row, but they would have been in it. They still would have been in the conversation, just like they were for the two years that it was Pippin without Jordan. They would have been in it. And not to mention, there's always a possibility of hitting on a draft pick or getting a replacement player and a cheaper deal that was able to do some of the things that Scotty did.

Or maybe Tony Koo coach steps up in other ways next to Michael Jordan. We don't know, obviously. But ultimately, you know, I think the documentary. he did a fine job overall of presenting Krause. I think it was perceived of them making him the victim, but I felt, you know, bad for him in some ways just the way he was treated too early on. There was a little bit of bullying with the way he was treated for, you know, looking the way

he did, for being short the way he was, for being just the person that he was. And I kind of, you know, watched that and understood the challenges that he was sort of navigating as a person working in a situation under such high pressure. But, you know, the fact is, is he was perceived as the villain when really, as you just mentioned, Ryan's Dorff is still the guy who's making the final call. Yes, he's the one who he's the one who cheaped out in the end, not Jerry Krause. And this is what he says. I don't know if you saw this article with Ramona Shelburne yesterday, but she went

and interviewed him. He said he's watched every episode of the documentary twice to try to see if there was something that he, you know, just didn't catch. And I guess, shut up, bro. Like enough. Like, Ryan's door. Ryan's door said that. That's what he said.

Yes. And then he says that, uh, as he's going on, he says, um, you know, he went to Phil's, uh, house, tried to convince him to come back. So he is at that point usurping this guy that he wants to convince you has all this authority in Jerry Krause. He's going and saying Phil come back. Phil says it's time. It's time. Like bro, why didn't you just say that in the documentary? Say, I went to Phil.

I tried to get him to back and he said he ain't coming back, right? Now, maybe he did and I forgot that part, but it was just so overwhelmed by the Jordan Sob story of, I don't know why we didn't do it. And I never talked to Jerry about it and whatever else. And it's like, wait, hold on now. Let's not do total revisionist history on this. The other thing that Reinsdorf mentioned,

again, he mentions this in the story with Ramona Shelburne. Now, maybe it was cut out, or maybe he didn't say it. To directors, he said, what people don't remember about this? He said, A, I went and tried to get Phil to come back, and he said no. B, it was the shortened season because of the lockout, and Michael Jordan cut his finger with a cigar cutter and had to have surgery. He wouldn't have played that season anyway. To which what Jordan said, now tell me if you believe this,

I wouldn't have been playing with a cigar cutter if everybody was ready to run it back. Like what? Come on. I swear to God, I swear to God, that's what Jordan said. He would not have been playing around with the cigar cutter if Phil Jackson would have been signed up to coach the team. Like, come on, dude. Like, come on. I get you creating whatever story you want to create.

But like the fact that you say you wouldn't. have cut your finger if Phil Jackson was going to be the coach. It's outrageous. Michael Jordan says, I wouldn't have been playing around with a cigar cutter as he adhales from a cigar hanging out of his mouth. Yes. I mean, it's just ridiculous. But, you know, by the way, though, like, I don't, I don't know 20 years ago, the severity

of that injury if I would have knocked him out for the season. But based off other finger injuries, my guess is Jordan would have had some type, some type of stint on there, and he would have played through the injury and changed the way he shot the ball for some period of time. Or probably would have done, like, who was the famous safety for the 49ers?

Ronnie Lott. Ronnie Lott, like he just cut off his finger. Ronnie Lott just cut off his finger. That's what Jordan would have done. Just cut it off. I mean, dependent on the finger.

I don't know which one. Right, you can't lose your thumb. And by the way, I mean, for the Chicago Bulls, a team that just won six out of eight championship, there's no logic to end things and to blow that team up. There's none, zero, Zippo.

But there is logic, as we see, you know, with the current present day, Golden State Warriors to at least take a forward look at what should be done in the near future. You know, Scotty Pippen being 33, entering the 98-99 season, maybe it is okay to have some hesitation to give him that big, long-term contract, depending on what you know about his health, he was suffering through that major back injury. Maybe there are reasons for you to feel like, you know what, we'll bring everybody but Scotty back. But ultimately, after winning three, your repeat, three-peat, there's no logic considering the context, but it's fine for them at least to consider those

things. It's just unfortunate that it was purely for financial reasons up and down the roster and it ended up turning into what it was losing Phil, losing Michael, losing Scottie, losing absolutely everybody on that damn team. But taking a forward look inherently isn't necessarily a mistake. It just sucks it happened the way it did. All right. Last thing, and we will end with this. So I lived through all of it and obviously you know how high regard I have for Michael Jordan. And one of the things you have stated regularly is like you didn't get to live through all of the Jordan stuff, right? When you talk about current players,

I will ask you, Kevin, after watching the last dance and a 10-part docu series on Michael Jordan, how have your views about Jordan changed, if at all? Not a lot. I would say the main thing is, well, first of all, the documentary did a great job of humanizing him, you know,

the figure that, you know, I was young when he was in his prime. I mean, I obviously knew who Michael Jordan was and how incredible he was as a young kid watching basketball, but he really did humanize that person for me. And more than anything else that I've seen or read about him in the past.

But I would say for me, you know, the documentary did a really, really stellar job of just showing how extreme of a high-level competitor that he was. you know, even just after defeating the Pacers, and he's talking trash to Larry Bird, who was coaching at the time, and then drives off in his car with the air license plate.

A little moment like that, talking trash with Larry Bird, the practice stuff, you know, end of episode seven, when he got emotional and needed to take the break, talking about his style of really motivating his team.

I'm not saying that that's the best way to be a competitor, or the best way to be a leader, nor am I saying it is the wrong way or there's better ways at all. I'm not saying that, but what I'm saying is that he was undeniably one of the greatest competitors

that we've ever seen. And to see some of the behind-the-scenes footage of that, to see the way some of his contemporaries, teammates and opponents talk about him really did illustrate the type and level of competitor that he is in a way that I have always understood. stood, but now have a deeper understanding of more than ever before. I have wondered, in closing here, I have wondered after I got done, one of the thoughts

I went through my mind is how many of these guys, because you know the entire NBA was watching this? I almost felt bad for like role players, rookies, mediocre guys on some of these teams, because you know there is going to be a select group of stars that come back just being absolute raging tyrants. you know what I mean like they watch this and they're going to they're they're going to conduct themselves in a different way there's no doubt in my mind there's going to be a lot more jimmy butlers in the league after they all watch the last dance that's what I'll say or Kyrie Irving

who you know learned from Kobe who learned from Michael you know um no I mean look like I said it's not necessarily the right or wrong way as as they say the squeaky wheel gets the grease and ultimately it's sort of that type of tactic here. No, the lesson is you have to win. You have to win. Yes. Or else everybody hates you. Yes.

You have to win. But, you know, in terms of like vocalizing your concerns and your thoughts, it can come off as the way it did for Michael Jordan or is the way it did for Kobe Bryant. But in a winning atmosphere from a player who is of that caliber who should and has the capabilities to do that, it can be effective. But to your point, there's going to be guys who come back with that type of mentality who aren't at the level that should be doing that. It'll be detrimental to their teams.

That's why you saw a million Bill Belichick and Nick Sabin impersonators. You know what I mean? Like guys that coached there, they go off and like, bro, you don't get to be a dick to the media and you don't get to act any kind of way. Like, you got to win. You know what I'm saying? Like they can do whatever the hell they want because they win like hell. But if you don't, you can't just act any kind of way towards people.

You know, that's the, that's the tradeoff, right? Or else everybody's going to turn on you. And he never gave anybody a reason to turn on him because he won. Every time they got to an NBA finals, they won. And so they ended up, a lot of guys ended up with rings and a lot of guys ended up without rings because of Jordan. Kevin, give everybody that email address because we'll do another mailbag on Friday. So where do they need to send their questions?

So send your questions to NBA mailbag at gmail.com. Send us anything. Basketball related, we're obviously going to answer those, but anything about life or whatever's on your mind and we'll sort through those. Bobby Wagner, our trusted producer will sort through those and we'll pick out the best ones and answer those on Friday and do those over the coming weeks as well.

well. Everybody have a very safe week. Stay safe out there. Give us a rating and review. If you get a chance, five stars, five stars. It really helps. And we will talk to you on Friday.