The Ringer NBA Show - The NBA Therapy Session and the Rorschach Test (Ep. 166)

Episode Date: November 21, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and John Gonzalez react to the phenomenon that is the Boston Celtics’ ongoing winning streak (0:31), reinstate the Cleveland Cavaliers as a true contender (6:15), diagnose the problem with the free-falling Clippers (9:40), speculate on the future of the Utah Jazz without Rudy Gobert (16:28), and praise the surprisingly good Portland Trail Blazers (24:09). Then, they adjudicate which middling teams will rise above the fray (29:53). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Farty. And joining me on this Tuesday is not Kevin Obama, aka Kevin O'Connor. He is on assignment. John Gonzalez from the Ringer.com filling in. John, how you doing? What up, Bruno, how's things? Thanks for coming on today.

All right. So last night, the events of last evening, I went to the Grizzlies Blazers game, got home last night, and I'm sifting through everything that took place. And by far, the overwhelming topic to me, was Danny Hange saying maybe the world is flat. That was the funniest thing. I could not. That is, to me, it's a sneaky great moment of the season,

which is the general manager president of the Boston Celtics after they win 16 in a row. And we're taken to overtime by the Dallas Mavericks, tweets out that maybe the world is flat in honor of his star player, Kyrie Irving, who has 40 years. seven points staves off a loss and now the Celtics have 16 in a row. What'd you think? I don't know if the world is flat, but it definitely belongs to Kyrie and the Celtics right now. We can't stop talking about these guys. I know that a lot of people outside of Boston would prefer it. But listen, they keep winning this way. And we talked about their schedule coming up on the Monday

heat check pod with Juliet Ledman. Shouts to Juliet. Burno, this could go on for a little bit. And you mentioned Kyrie. I saw this on Twitter this morning, courtesy of basketball reference. Kyrie is the first Celtic since Larry Bird to have 45 or more points and five or more assists in a win. That's a long time. He put up an amazing line. They were down 13, Verno, and they came back to win it in overtime. These guys are killing it right now. Yeah, you know one of the things that I thought of last night when I was watching all the Kyrieh highlights was there was that article earlier in the year where Isaiah Thomas said in no uncertain terms, they're going to regret.

this. And that like ran through my mind last night. I was like, I'm not, I'm not real sure about it. I mean, I love Isaiah Thomas. He's the king of the fourth and all that, but like, I'm not sure they're going to regret it. It doesn't appear that they are regretting any of their moves so far. Now, here's the sneaky thing that nobody talks about. Um, okay, they're not, it's impossible to be better than 16 and 0, right? But you do. You do. have to wonder, like, what if Hayward was in the lineup? It would be killer. I mean, you know, they've already got the best defensive rating in the NBA by considerable

margin. Their average point differential, they're beating their opponents on average by eight points per game. I mean, that's really a considerable margin. Only the rockets and warriors have been better so far on average point differential. This is a really good team, Bruno, and you bring up the Gordo part. I mean, my God, like, if they had him too and they could phase him. him in and I mean what would that do for their rotations I'm sure Brad Stevens would figure it out but

they'd be so much deeper than they already are they already are a really deep team so this Celtics team I think like there was a little bit of panic after Gordon Hayward went down and rightly so but what we're seeing now is that this is a legit contender not just in the east but but overall I mean the Warriors obviously are the are by far in a way the favorites but you have to at least consider the Celtics in the conversation now and when everybody takes an towards the future. I think most people thought it would most likely, some may like Toronto or Washington, but generally I think all the predictions were that there would be a Cavs Celtics collision course. In fact, I think that's pretty much what everybody projected to be. And then in

night one, Gordon Hayward got hurt and it was, it was then known that like the, all right, the Celtics, they're going to have to rock without him. And then. that all changed. It was like, oh, it's wide open now. And somehow they're 16 and two. And the blessing in disguise that's not exactly in the skies is that you've got these young guys in Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. I mean, they're playing big, big minutes. And this is just so intensely valuable for them even going forward, right? And the fact that they are, not only are they not costing their team wins by being young guys that are getting big minutes. Like, they're helping them win every single night.

I am, it feels like they just totally nailed both of those draft picks and they play together so well. They've been killing it. I mean, look, I'm loathe to give Danny Aang and the Celtics any more credit than they've already gotten, but they deserve it. And by the way, how ironic the KOC, I don't know what he's doing. He's sunning himself. He's on a beach somewhere.

He's got his feet propped up. He's got a drink in his hand with a little umbrella in it. He takes off today. This is the day of all days that the KOC should be out here trumpeting his favorite team. He said he was and he always tries to act like it's not his favorite team. Yeah, he's impartial about the Celtics the way my mom is impartial about my career. All right, here we go. We got the, all right, so last thing on the Celtics.

Do you think, and this is the most important thing, do you think that Kyrie Irving, when he saw, because his name's tagged and you know all his buddy, he's, you know, told him about it if he didn't see it himself originally. Do you think that when Danny Ains said maybe the world is flat, the tweet that everybody started laughing at last night, do you think Kyrie Irving thought that was funny? That's a good question. Kyrie's a weird dude. I think everything is turning up Kyrie right now.

He's probably, yeah, I think he's probably laughing right along with everybody else. I mean, you mentioned it. When they made the trade, everybody went, well, now we're going to see because Kyrie wanted his own team and, like, well, what? what it mean if Isaiah finally gets healthy. Right now he only has one working hip. I mean, if you're Boston, everything is smiles and laughs and you're having a great time.

I think he's probably enjoying it. Let's talk about the team he left, Cleveland, and it is every once in a while that we're looking up at a scoreboard, and you will see a score like last night where they absolutely thump the pistons, and it's like, all right, like every once in a while, they'll show you what they're capable of, right? on the night that they've really got it going.

And last night was one of those nights. We at the very beginning of the season, the first couple of weeks, were spent on dissecting them, what's wrong with them, what's wrong with Ty Lou and what's wrong with, you know, and wow,

I can't believe that they signed Derek Rose and Dwayne Wade and all these guys and Jeff Green. It's not working out. It did. Do you look at something like last night and say that's the outlier? Or do you look at it and say, All right. That's clearly what they're capable of. And there was a lot of overreaction early in the season.

I've been a preaching caution and patience with the Cavaliers proponent. Look, they've got the best player in the world on their team. And the regular season, as we've learned, year after year after year, matters not at all to LeBron James. He literally at the end of last year, the Cavaliers had a chance to get the number one overall seed in the east. and instead he decided to rest and just gifted it to the Celtics

basically saying, we don't care about this, we're going to beat you anyway, and then he did. I think that this is just a warm up for them. And the Pistons, by the way, got smacked. All the people who were talking about the Pistons,

one of them was our producer, Isaac. He's taken some else. That poor guy, not only has he taken some balls with the Clippers, but he was telling me all yesterday about the Pistons, at which point the game started, and I got a text from him, and he goes,

I might have been wrong about the Pistons. It's the calves, man. It's the calves and it's the Celtics and it's everybody else in the east. And here's what we do have to remember that once upon a time, and yes, it was a decade ago. But people could talk about the supportive guest with LeBron. But once upon a time, we saw LeBron James with this is the rest of the roster. Shannon Brown, Boobie Gibson, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, Sharunis Ogoskis, Damon Jones, Dwayne Jones, Danielle Marshall, Ira Neubel, Sasha Pavlovich, Scott Pollard, Eric Snow, David Wesley, Eddardson, Beardseridge.

Hey, hey, that team was in the NBA finals. At some, right, right. Exactly. Like, who's the guy on that team? That's the common thread to, you're 100% right. Eric Snow, my God, I watched him in Philadelphia. I can't believe he was on that team. Yeah, no, I mean, like, every time the LeBron team gets off to a slow start. We wonder. And at the end of the season, we're going to go, okay, this is an imperfect Cavs team, but it doesn't matter because they still have the guy. By the way, the third, fourth, and fifth leading scorers in the playoffs on that particular team were Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, and Sasha Pavlovich. Larry Hughes, who the Sixers took over Paul Pierce. Still regretting

that one. I got to rep Larry Hughes. I watched to play at high school in St. Louis. He was fine. He was fine. He wasn't a Hall of Famer. He was fine. You believe that drafting Larry Hughes over Paul Pierce was a mistake. Slight mistake. I think even Larry Brown might admit that now.

I think that's probably true also. All right. So we got to the Cavs. The other story, or one of the stories from last night was the Clippers. The lost streak reaches nine in a row. And it has now reached the point where this is crippling towards your future prospects. because they're now 5 and 11 on the year. And, you know, the more that you start racking these up,

you've got to go on a six-game win streak just to get to 500. I mean, it is so hard to put yourself so far behind the eight ball. I think people are kind of searching for answers. The easy one is, hey, you know, they spend a lot of money on Dono Gallinari and he's not around. But, hey, let's turn to Isaac because he's the clipper guy who's dying inside every single night. Why, in your mind, as a Clipper fan, why have the Clippers lost nine games in a row? It's tough, man.

I mean, their point differential isn't very bad. It's minus 1.6, which is higher than the Pelicans and the Lakers who are kind of in that middling 500 range, right? Like a team with that kind of talent with Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan, regardless of whether Pat Bev or if Gallinari are around, it shouldn't really matter about their health as long as Blake and DeAndre are healthy and they're playing well. I'm just going to keep rambling about how This is amazing What I really like about this is that you Tosted him and asked him for his thoughts

And most of it was just heavy breathing Like he had been turned Asked to turn his head and cough It got really weird in the studio It's tough That's all I can say it's tough Oh well here's one of the things You say it should be fine

But it's weird with all With so many of these teams It feels like they lose one guy Like they might lose a starter or two starters. And this is what makes Houston so impressive and the record they have despite losing Paul for the length of time that they did. But they lose one starter or two starters, and it just wrecks stuff, right? So the Grizzlies have lost Mike Conley and the Utah Jazz have lost Rudy Gobert. And you can go on. And obviously with the Clippers, right? They lose

Galinari. They lost Pat Bev for a stretch there. And some of these teams, they just, they are not good enough to be able to overcome a loss of one or two starters for that matter. No, it's not, I mean, like, especially with the Clippers, not having Gallo and having that extra offense definitely hurts them. I think also it's, it's not impossible that we overrated what the Clippers could be, sans Chris Paul. And with, I mean, look, I like Blake Griffin. I love the idea of Point Blake.

We saw previous seasons when Chris Paul was out and Blake was sort of the focal point. win of the offense. He and DJ worked really well in that two-man game. It's not the same this year. Pat Bav being out certainly didn't help. Galanari being out certainly hasn't helped. You know, they thought that they were going to get some sort of contribution out of meals to Eidos that he still hasn't played. You're relying a lot for offense on Austin River's son of Doc. God. Not good. Christ. No. There's the heavy breathing again. Yeah, I know. Once you get past and obviously, listen, I laughed O'Connor off the show when he

try to tell me there could be a five or a four seed, right? Because I just, I didn't see it. And here's the thing, like most nights, most nights, you're going to have, you got to be over 100 to win these games, right? And so if you're getting the 20 to 25 out of Blake and then let's assume Gallinari was only averaging 13 in the nine games before he went out. But let's assume he can be a 17, 18, 18 point per game guy, right? like okay so now we've got uh now we've added up to about 40 or maybe 45 on a good night on a regular okay

like you've still got to find 50 55 60 more points on the rest of that roster and on average like every single night and they're averaging 105 right now but we see that that is a come and go they might have 116 and then they might have 90 right or Or they might have, as it turns out, I'm looking at the box score from last night. They might have 85 against the Knicks, which I don't think is going to do it. I don't think that's going to do it either. And I will say this, this is a weird, weird year in the NBA. My buddy Tim Bontem from the Washington Post texted me the other night.

He was at a game. And we were talking back and forth about the way the league is right now. And I said, I was talking to him about the Western Conference and some of the teams. I had seen already. And I said, outside of, like, we knew the rockets and the Warriors and the Spurs were all going to be really good. We expected that the T-Wolves could be pretty good. And we certainly thought that Oklahoma City is going to be really awesome whenever it all clicks. And I still believe that.

The rest of these teams, I really believe, like, the rest of them, they are capable of almost anything. Yeah. There is a tremendous. lack of consistency in play. Like, they could, they, they, it wouldn't shock me if, if some of these rat teams beat the, beat the rocket, beat the rockets one night. And then the next night get blown out in Orlando. Like, it's just been a very, very strange year.

And people can say parody, but the extremes, I mean, like, listen, I, just this past, within a week's time, I watched the Kings lose by. 46 against the hawks, turn around and beat the trailblazers. The Kings beat the thunder earlier in the season. It has been a weird, a weird year. I won't have any NBA slander, though. I mean, you call them rat teams. That's fine.

I look at it more like the glass half full because I do see it sort of as parity. There's the top tier teams, the rockets and the warriors and the spurs and the Celtics. And I believe eventually the Cavaliers, once they write themselves and start actually caring about some sort of regular season, loss record. So at the end of the year. But everybody else, it makes for really interesting in-season viewing because we've kind of gotten to the point in the NBA where, not kind of, have gotten to the point in the NBA where it's two seasons. It's the finals, which is going to feature the Warriors and most likely the Cavs or whoever comes out of these, but most likely the Cavs of the South

Tex. And then it's the regular season, which is just everybody else playing each other and trying to make it somewhat relevant. And on a night-to-night basis, like you said, it could be some of of these teams, you know, cough up a really bad game, or it could make for a really interesting unexpected outcome. I like it. It makes regular season viewing fun. The other team last night that seems to get farther behind the eight ball is Utah. Now, they're only four games under 500. They're 7 and 11, but they're 2 and 8 in their last 10. And one of the things that I asked O'Connor last week, I said, does this go bear injury, which is possibly four weeks, possibly six weeks, who knows, he's going to get re-evaluated down the road.

Is that a killer towards their playoff hopes? And he immediately said, yes, right? That they are a team that they're not going to beat you with the regular firepower every night. And given that he is such an amazing defensive anchor, they can still be a tough team to play against on a regular basis. But they take another loss last night. And now, as I said, they're two and eight in their last. 10 games. What do we make of Utah? Is the, is the, in your mind, the Gobert injury, just a killer? You're just going to just gloss over. You say they take another

loss last night. You're going to say who beat them? Oh, the Philadelphia 70s. Who beat them? The Philadelphia, did the 76ers win again? All right. Let me say this. All right. I know you're, I know you're a, I know you're a Philly guy. I am so over Philly fans this week. After, I don't know if you, I don't know if you saw this, but it was the Carson Wednesday night. See, I'm a cowboy. fan. Oh, you are. Oh, you're taking some on the chin recently. Well, I mistakenly, I don't want to say

mistakenly. At half time of that game, I tweeted out, like, oh, all I've heard all these announcers talk about is Carson Wentz the MVP, right? I was like, yeah, right. And then, you know, second half Eagles start stomping them. It's like, yeah,

oh, like, old Texas foes is getting me. All these Philly fans are killing me. I'm like, wait, what was exposed? I was like, the guy's like 14 to 27. this game. Like, stop it. And Collinsworth is just all over. I know this isn't the, I know this isn't the NFL show, but he's just like every,

I mean, every friggin' dinky pass the guy throws. It's like, you just don't see second year quarterbacks throw. And I'm like, shut the fuck up. And so, but these Philly fans are friggin' relentless. Oh, God. It was way worse than when O'Connor, who was like the only person in the world outside of you and maybe 200 other people that were watching Philadelphia. you two and a half years ago.

He mocked me for, Rishon Holmes had played 150 total minutes, and I was unaware of his work. Believe me, I'm aware of your lack of Rishon Holmes' knowledge. And they smash me on that. I will say a couple of things here.

That was a hell of a rant. Number two, great Collinsworth impersonation. Number three, the NBA show today between you and Isaac has become the NBA therapy show. I really like the way that this whole thing is going. I will stipulate one.

quick point before we go back to the jazz. Philadelphia fans, when angry, are a lot to deal with. Philadelphia fans, when happy, even more to deal with. Like, it's very rare when this happens. Yeah. They're going to be coming. Oh, they got to go with do, right? Because they got to go with the Eagles and the Sixers simultaneously. The whole town is even more obnoxious than normal, which is pretty obnoxious. So everybody just settle in because it's only going to get worse. Back to the jazz real quick. You mentioned, you mentioned, would it be a killer for them with Rudy Gobert? Absolutely, Verna. They're 25th. 25th in offensive rating. The defense, obviously, is their

Ballywick. Their 7th, but 25th in offensive rating, you were talking about the clippers and where they got offense from. Same deal with the jazz. Donovan Mitchell, as a rookie, is asked to do a lot of heavy lifting. I like Ricky Rubio. They were using them as a score first point guard earlier in the season. Probably a bad idea. We're seeing more of that now. Rodney Hood, still trying to figure it out. And here's the other thing. You look at their strength of schedule. 24th. It's not like they're playing a lot of really good teams right now. This is bad news for the

jazz. Yeah. You see right now, I mean, like, there's only, there's only so much like the last year it felt like even with Hayward on the team, they get into these close games. There was a lot of ISO Joe last year, right? And ISO Joe is now, it hits everybody. Age hits everybody. Yeah. Right. And I feel like hell for them because I thought that there was a step taken possibly by Exum last year in the playoffs. She's really thrown into the fire. There was that one quarter against, and again, I'm grasping here, but there was the quarter against Golden State in one of the games.

One of the games that I thought they should have won, honestly, in that first round series, where he was the best player on the floor. And so, like, you could see those glimpses. And I was like, maybe he can take the leap next year. And we forget, they lost him right off the bat. And then losing Gobert. It's just a bridge too far. Yeah, it's a shame. I do like that you remember that one quarter of good basketball by Dante Axum.

And the only other people who remember it are Dante Axum and Dante Exum's family. So that's nice of you to mention that. I think that's probably fair. I just remember watching the game being like, you know, this guy can really do some stuff. And maybe, you know, I'm just not, I'm not big a giving up on guys early anymore, especially point guards. Because more so than anybody in the free world, I learned my lesson the hard way. And that is with the guy I cover all the time in Mike Conley. Killer.

I never saw it. Never. The first three, four years of his career. I was like, this is, like, why are they investing so much time and energy and minutes and money in. did this. And I was just wrong. And you see guys, some of these guys now, it's very strange. I'm seeing it every night when I'm going to games. It's four,

five, six years till some of them really hit their stride. You know, we saw it with, I know they lost last night, but we've seen it with Tobias Harris in Detroit. I'll tell you one that I saw last night that I thought was I would have thrown the towel in, well, I don't know throw the towel in, but I

certainly thought that I knew what the career of Shabazz Napier was going to be. He is he's pretty he's gotten a lot better a lot better recently yeah he really helps them like really helps them there were moments where they used to be if lillard wasn't on the court it was like oh god like they just got to wait until they just got to like keep looking at their watch until they can get him back out there but napier's giving him a little spark he was he's pretty damn good yeah they've needed some offense from that team is exactly what you were saying like

where are they going to get offense once they go to their bench and it's thin. I mean, look, I like E.T. I didn't like him when he was a sixer. I liked him a lot when he went to Boston. And then he sort of struggled on and off last year. He does certain things. Scoring is not his ballywick, though. It's not through shooting from distance is not his thing. You're going to need some offense somewhere. We learned that it's never going to be Miles Leonard. He had the opportunity to go out and and, you know, suck up a bunch of minutes after Lamarcus Aldridge left. It's not going to be him. Who else are you looking at? Pat Conantin and Ed Davis and like it gets real thin, real fast for that bench. So yeah, they need Napier to go out there and put up some points.

And that's to their credit. You mentioned too with the Grizzlies and Mike Conley. I think Conley is consistently one of the most underrated players in the NBA because as you said, like there's certain teams that can't afford to lose one or two main guys. The Grizz are that team. Without Mike Connolly, they just crater. Yeah, it's tough sledding for sure. They needed a healthy Mike Conley and a healthy Markisal. The other thing about last night, just seeing the Blazers in person, they, you could go, anybody could go pull this box score.

The final rebounds was like 60 to 35. And I was like, what in the world? And then I went this morning, they have been, according to rebound ring. You nailed that, by the way. It was exactly 60 to 35. They're the best rebounding team in the NBA. which is shocking to me. It is a little surprising.

I mean, they've been, Von Lay has been a surprisingly good rebounder for them. Let me tell you the other one that's, that'll blow your mind. They're second in defensive rating. Yeah. What is that like what? With a back court of Lillard of McCarlem.

I get it. We're only like 15, 16 games into the season, 17 games in the season, but that is not what I expected. I did not, I did not look at that team and go, well, there'll be a great rebounding team. be great defensively. And at least through 17 games, they have been. Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, you look at that team and you expect them to be more of an offensive team, especially, as you mentioned, with their back court, that's what they do best. Net rating overall,

their fifth in the league, Verno. Listen, you're preaching to the choir. My favorite team to watch, obviously, is the Philadelphia 76ers, but if I had detach myself from geography and upbringing and conditioning, it's the Blazers. I'm literally wearing a Blazers shirt right now. anybody who listens to the heat check pod knows how I rep hard for the Blazers this is great to watch here's a little story too you mentioned Turner

because you had him in Philly when you were there one of my friends Ed Stefanski who was once the general manager of the Philadelphia 76ers also worked in the front office with Toronto once upon time I did an interview with him

and like I just called him to the carpet on it I'm like what the hell was the Turner thing about right? Because he was the second picking that draft and you know it's one of those moments where if you and I think a lot of people feel like this and I think that you know uh our boss bill Simmons once upon a time wrote about when he sat down with Isaiah Thomas and he like explained

everything like it was like you know he just murdered him for years and years and when Isaiah Thomas sat down and explained it okay you may walk away and then when you digest all of it it's stupid anyway right but when he's explaining it to you're like all right well at least like you know what I mean it wasn't just a hundred percent goofy like there was real thought that went into this it was you know it didn't work look i was i wasn't an et fan for the sixers in that in that draft i think at if he had a chance to do it over again obviously wouldn't have made that pick well my original point was it's interesting to hear from the side okay why does this happen and there was basically an acknowledgement that they all knew that demarcus cousins was the second

best player in that draft. They all knew that. But they were going to take DeMarcus cousins over Doug Collins' dead body. And so it just wasn't happening. I believe that. But also a lot of teams screwed up that draft. I mean, if you look at that draft, Evan Turner went second. I think in retrospect, we all think, okay, well, DeMarcus must have gone third. No, he went fifth. Derek favors went third. Wesley Johnson went fourth. And then also Gordon Hayward went ninth and Paul George went 10th. So a lot of teams fucked up that draft. That's for sure. All right, we've got to take a quick break. Let us hear from the sponsors. And then on the other side, we're going to talk about the teams that are within two games of 500 and who we believe in and who we do not.

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because I'm around it all the time. I go to their games all the time. I'm seeing it alive in person. They have, they just cannot stop losing. As of recently, you mentioned the Conley thing and the absence of him being a real killer. It seems like right now,

real quickly I'll tell you, We all thought Rockets, Warriors, Spurs, Oklahoma City, Minnesota were going to be playoff teams, right? And then there was going to be a battle. Well, if Utah has fallen out of this, we think, and the clippers are really behind the eight ball now, you're talking about three of these teams for, I'm sorry, four of these teams for three spots, which are Portland, Denver, the Pelicans, and the Grizzlies, right? That's nine teams. Yeah. If we throw out the clips in Utah. So three of those four, Portland, Denver, Pelicans, Grizzlies.

Let's start with Grizzlies before we get to Pelicans. What do you think? So this is a pretty simple binary for me. If they have Mike Connolly, yes, I believe in them. And if they don't, I don't. I mean, we saw what happened when you extract Mike Connolly from this team. They're two and eight over their last 10. They just don't go the same way.

I mean, at the beginning of the season, Verno, I think there were a lot of people outside of Memphis who may be counted. out the Grizzlies again. And we were reminded, once more, when you have a healthy Mike Conley and you have a healthy Markisal, they're a good team. They just, they just figure it out that that's a really good combination. And also, like, their schedule to start, they had the fourth hardest strength of schedule to start. So it's not like they've been playing super easy teams. It's not been an easy road for them, but really, it boils down. I like, by the way, Tyreek Evans looks like the Tyreek Evans we've always thought that he could be in the NBA since he came out of Chester outside of Philadelphia and I love him.

He is clearly right now the best value that was in free agency. Yeah, yeah. That contract is crazy. I mean, it's a one year $3 million deal. I mean, it's like a damn lottery ticket right now. Can you imagine what they would look like right now if they didn't have him to add some offense and play a little bit? No. Well, and so here's the thing, right?

last year Mike Conley was out for a long time he broke his back and they went eight and one without him. Crazy. And now this particular roster construct is just not like, you know, they still had the guys that were used to playing with each other all the time, the Tony Allen, Zach Randolph, Markassau. And frankly, Markisaw has turned into a monster in the absence of Conley over the course of the past year and a half. Now, that has not been the case recently, but they're trying to get all these names. guys into the mix like Ben McElmore and Jamichael Green got hurt at the beginning of the season they're trying to get him back in

and so the coach David Fisdell he's just searching for anything and we'll say this I'll know in a week because they play Dallas a Dallas at Denver and Brooklyn or their next three and if they don't beat Dallas and Brooklyn both which are home games then

that is that's going to tell you about what happens with that basketball team yeah that's I think that that's probably right I mean Denver is going to be a tough slog for them. Tough to keep up with them. Brooklyn is like one of those teams where it depends on the night. But yeah,

the Brooklyn and the Mavs games, if they're going to keep their head above water and fight until Conley come back, you got to have them. Yep. Let's get to the Pelicans who are nine and eight. They are ninth in offense, offensive rating. They are 23rd in defensive rating.

we've only seen one playoff iteration of Anthony Davis so far, and he was amazing against the Golden State Warriors. But this is kind of hung around his neck, the fact that he is, you know, we're several years into the career. And his team has not necessarily been good. I think it is a tremendous malpractice the way they have built around him over the course of his career. So I don't think he is fully to blame. And he's also had his share of injuries and availability's been an issue. That being said, they're nine and eight right now. I think people thought that they, I mean, if I told people at the beginning of the season,

they could be a 500 basketball team. I don't think that would have been incredibly shocking. But what do you make of them? What do you think? And what you said about the Blazers where you said, you know, I'm sort of surprised with how good they've been defensively. I think that it's interesting that the pelicans have two guys who should be good rim protectors and should be able to play good defense and lock down the paint.

And yet, really, it's been the reverse that the offense has been the thing that's driven them to wins this year. Initially, last year, I wasn't sure about the fit with Boogie and with Anthony Davis. And, you know, I didn't think that it made much sense. Now watching it this year, when you have Boogie popping out and just taking it as many threes as he possibly wants to take in a game. I don't know if it's going to work. I don't know if it's sustainable long term over the course of the season.

It's been a hell of a lot of fun, though. It's been fun to watch. I wonder, though, if they, like, let's say that they hover around 500 as the trade deadline approaches. Do you keep boogie or do you jettison him and try to build for the future and get something more around Anthony Davis? Or do you take a shot and just, you know, try to get into the playoffs and see what happens?

Well, now that they are winning, I actually think, or at least that they are, as of today, a playoff team. I think if they're a playoff team, they ride it out. That's what I would tell you. If they're in that mix and they really feel like they're going to be one of the top eight seeds, then they ride that thing out. If they start faltering, if they lose eight out of ten or whatever happens, then yeah, I think you start to think, okay, this, whatever we got going right now, it's not good enough. and so we need to make a move and I do wonder like could you get to the playoffs

I can absolutely see a scenario if they are there where they throw out like a lineup with like Roddo and Tony Allen and those two guys and nobody on the other team can get a rebound to say like ever ever like you have maybe the two best

guard rebounders now they they will never hit an outside shot And those two guys, you know, cousins and Davis would have to do literally everything. You're talking about, you know, when you're talking about half court grinded out basketball and just being able to, like, when the other team misses you get the ball and when you miss, you get the ball, like they kind of weirdly have some goods to be able to do that and really make life hell for some good teams possibly. I think that the pelicans being nine and eight and people going, yeah, this is maybe the best Pelicans. team we've seen in a while.

It says a lot about what the Pelicans have been. Yeah. And I also, the Cleveland win when they stomped them, that was rather shocking. But fair is fair. When you go through their schedule and you see what their nine wins were, by far the most impressive was the Oklahoma City one that happened on Monday night. 26th in strength of schedule. They have not had a tough road so far.

No. No. All right. So the Pelicans, I think that does it for. the Western car oh no Oklahoma City they're they're within two games of 500 so we just got to mention them um I was very high on them and I think they are you know the point differential still pretty good I think it's a matter of time before they figure it out I am shocked that they have been as awesome defensively as they have been and but if they have been that good defensively I look at it and I say all right well they're already they're clearly capable of being really good defensively and I'm really capable of being really good defensively and I'm not they're already they're clearly capable of being really good defensively. and I think the offense will figure itself out eventually. Once they all figure out how this team's going to work, I think they can figure that out and be pretty devastating.

Yeah, the third and defensive reigning, Verno, six in net rating. I look at this team and like when you were saying, you know, some of those other Western Conference playoff contenders, who would I rather have? I still, I think you're right. I believe that they will figure it out. They've got three top tier players. If I had to choose between them and the nuggets and the pelicans and the grizzlies, I'll take the thunder out of that group. I just think there's just too much talent.

They've got three guys that are better than, you know, almost everybody else on those other teams. Let me tell you what is super shocking to me. You know, we touched on Tyree Evans. I thought for sure one of the best free agent signings by a wide margin was Patrick Patterson. He has been horrible, like not bad. bad. Horrible. He has a P.E.R.

of six. Six, man. You know, the league average is 15. His P.E.R. is six. He's averaging three points a game while he is shooting 34% from the field and 33% from three. And I thought he was going to be a great fit with those guys as a role player. I was a huge fan of his in Toronto. and I just, I did not see that coming.

I thought that was going to be a really good fit and a great signing, and he has just been beyond atrocious. While we're doing the therapy session here on the NBA show, I feel like I should sit you down and be the bearer of bad news. I think you might have expected too much from Pat Pat. No, stop. Come on. Three points, a P.E.R of six.

I think your expectations were lost. What do you mean by egg-make faces are a little hot? He's fine. I liked him okay. This guy has been a winning player, though. He's been a winning player. All right. Like having him out on the court has been a benefit to teams.

Yeah. It just has not been. I don't know. Like there are certain guys in the NBA where I watch them play and I go, okay, they're in the NBA. And he's in that group. Like I have no, I have no expectations for Pat. I just thought, I mean, he was, listen, the last two years, he was a 36% and 37% three point shooter while shooting almost for a game.

You know, I mean, he's been a good three point, 37% from a backup power forward who, you know, will not get pushed around underneath the basket. It's pretty damn good, but it's been terrible, terrible. I'm going to get you a pat jersey for Christmas. I'm sending it out of your life. I don't want to know. I don't know. No, I'm getting it's happening now. I don't want to happen.

You're the number one. You've got Pat Pat foot in pajamas and the poster above your bed. I'd rather you get me a pair of Russell Westbrook skinny jeans and Paterson jersey. All right, deal. All right. Here's the Eastern Conference. All right. So here are the teams that are within two games of 500 and whether or not we believe in them.

I don't even want to let you talk about the Sixers, honestly. You know what? They just keep soaring. Like at the end of the season, we'll talk about. them plenty, but you're right. We've already talked about them too much. They're just, they're probably even too good for us to discuss on this show. I'm going to cut your mic. Let me, let me

tell you something. Go ahead. Old Fultz needs to buy all of them a Christmas gift, a real one, because they have totally taken that like off the radar. Right? It's not like, oh God, you know, he was the number one picking the draft and all that, like all anybody talks about

is how amazing Simmons is, how amazing Embed is, how fun they are, the games that those guys, are having and like it's just it's almost like if they weren't playing well that would be a big topic and he and there would be a lot more pressure on him um but given the success and especially the success of those two guys that the process as it were reaped um i think taking a lot of pressure all folds yeah no there those two guys are almost and the way that this team is performing they're almost like they serve as blinders for the rest of the NBA uh

to ignore faults. You're 100% right. Enough about the Sixers. Yeah, see, look what you did. I said. We were going to talk about them all of a sudden we're talking about it. All right, we'll talk about a couple of the seven and nine's real quickly. Charlotte, they're seven to nine. They're 16th offensive rating, 12th defensive rating. So like you're just like the record is middle of the pack.

Yeah. The ratings are middle of the pack. Yeah. Clifford says some very, you know, disturbing things after the game. Like we literally have no identity. we don't know what we are we're an offensive team we're we a defensive team i thought that he would be able to get to dwight howard as always dwight howard's getting a ton of rebounds um but there was always the concern as uh as as as as simmons calls it the dwight bolivirus um could infect charlotte they are i mean they're just mass so far seven and nine average

offense average defense yeah what do you think no i think that that's exactly what they are It's the old Bill Parcell's thing that, you know, you are, which your record says you are. I'm not always somebody who subscribes to that theory. In this case, I am. Dwight Howard is Dwight Howard. And like, it's been a long time since he was a difference maker for a team. And more often than not in recent memory, we've seen him act as a drag on on teams and their progress. I really, really like Nick Batum.

He was out to start the season. I think that getting him back will be beneficial to them. Jeremy Lamb played pretty well in his absence. but I don't think that he's as versatile a player as Nick Patum. So now you can use Jeremy Lamb off the bench as sort of an offense guy. Same with Malik Monk. You don't have to rely on him as much. You could take his minute load down a little bit.

Campbell Walker has been really good for them, but I just don't look at this team and think to myself, yeah, if they make it into the playoffs, I'd be surprised. And if they do, I think it's back end. I thought Kid Gilchrist is going to be better than he is. Yeah, I mean, that shot. He just still hasn't gotten there with it. I know what. I know. And obviously, you know, he's 23 minutes a game. Like, I thought he would be a big minute starter for sure. Even if he was just a, even if he was, if he was never like an all-star, that he would be like an amazing role player. Yeah, he just has not gotten there. Right. All right. So we're kind of the same page on Charlotte. What about Miami? 26th offense, 14th defense. Such a weird season last year where they were like 10 and 31 and 10.

And I think there was a real wonder, hey, which one are they? Are they something in between? They were ravaged by injury. So we knew they weren't nearly as shitty as their record the first half of the season. But there was also a sentiment like they ain't as good as their second half of the season record either. And now you look and it's kind of like a mix, right? They're right around 500, right? So they're not the team that was horrible.

They're not the team that was unbelievable. uh that just that barely barely missed the playoffs like the last week of the season they're just a seven and nine team um what do you make of them were you sold by the second half of last year that they could actually be pretty damn good i was and they have the exact same record as the hornets so this is where i go the opposite way on uh i'm not sure the record is indicative of their actual talent you look at their roster they've got a lot of interesting pieces i really like hasan Whiteside and Gorin Dragrick. James Johnson has been really good. And they've got players, Richardson started off really slow. And I think eventually he's going to find his shot.

He was such an instant offense guy for them and could do so many different things that I think that that's been sort of an impediment on the way that they've started this year. So I like them to sort of like kick it into gear in the same way that we're seeing and we're going to get to these guys in a second, but in the same way that we're starting to see the magic regress a little bit to the mean. I think we're going to see the heat, you know, actually play to the level of their talent, which I think is greater than their record has indicated. All right. Let's move to the magic next because they are a team that at the beginning of the season, you looked about two weeks in and half their guys were shooting like 60% from the field and 50% from three, right? So we knew there is going to be some regression to the mean. And still even today, after the amount of games that they've played, we are, they're eight and nine. So 17 games into the same. season. Evan Fornier is shooting 43% from three. That's not that shocking. But Aaron Gordon's been a 44% three-point shooter. I'm sorry, Nikola Vucevic has been a 41% three-point shooter. Jonathan

Simmons has been 39, which I think honestly is rather sustainable. But we have seen, like, as a team, they were just shooting the cover off the ball at the beginning of the team. We knew there was going to be some regression. In fact, O'Connor. Connor even wrote about this, like, what is going to happen with these teams that at the beginning of this season have started off much better than maybe we would have previously expected. There's going to be some regression, but I do think they're pretty good and way better than I thought they were going to be. Yeah, I'm starting to sell my magic stock at the beginning of the year.

Look, I really love the idea of Aaron Gordon. And we saw this at the end of last season, in the same way we saw the heat. really killing it. At the end of last season, Aaron Gordon asserted himself. He was shooting the ball extremely well. It wasn't just the Aaron Gordon that we would get in All-Star games when he was hyperathletic and he was dunking the ball and it was an exhibition and then he disappeared. We saw a full, like, really developed game where he was playing inside out. He was using athleticism. He was rebounding while I'm passing and shooting the three. And we're getting that same Aaron Gordon this year. I'm on board with Aaron Gordon. I like the idea of Nick Vucevic shooting threes. I didn't think it was

possible. He came out of nowhere and did it. And I also like Jonathan Simmons signing with them. However, the shooting, I don't think, is sustainable as a team. They were shooting so well at the beginning of the year to win some of those games. And KOC wrote about it. And also, our buddy Ben Falk from cleaning the glass used to be an executive and handled a lot of the analytics for the Philadelphia 76ers now has a new site. He wrote about the same thing and just went, look, if you look at their numbers, this is highly, highly unusual. And I'd be shocked. if they were able to keep it up. And they haven't been recently three and seven over the last 10.

I think, you know, 500 to sub 500 is about right for the magic. Let me tell you one thing that I noticed when I saw them in person, the rookie Jonathan Isaac, who I know you're selling that side. Do not sell stock in this kid, though. This kid has a chance to be outstanding. And I have this poster in my office from years ago. The Bucks gave it out at the game. and it was this poster that has Janus,

and it's two photos of Janus, right? One is on, it's like a full-size poster, and on the left it says draft night, right? And they've got him in his draft hat, and it says like six, eight. And then it says, oh, it says June. And then it says November. And it's got a picture of him next to him,

and it says six, ten and a half or something, right? It's this idea that he grew two and a half inches since they have. had drafted him. And I'm telling you this, this Isaac kid when I saw him in person, for anybody that hasn't seen this kid in person yet, he is so tall, John. And I promise you, like, if he was 610 when they drafted him, he has grown since because they list him at 610. And when he was out on the court, he towered over everyone. He was guarding Chandler Parsons at one point. He towered over Chandler. And Chandler's 610. And I'm like, how fucking tall is this guy? Yeah, he's a big dude.

This guy, he's wiry as all get out, but he is, you know, he is a real freak of nature in the sense that it's shocking to see him and realize how tall he really is. And he moves, he moves like a damn gazelle. I'd buy some stock in him for sure. They could use some nice young talent because they obviously missed on Hizonia. And then, you know, you've got Alfred Payton who, as Kevin Clark likes to say in our ringer slack, continues into whatever year. this is for him to just dribble into the teeth of defenses. Like, I guess that's his thing. I wonder when they're going to move on from Alfred Payton. It's a weird mix of players.

If Isaac pans out, good for that, man, because they really need somebody like that. Let's touch on the Pacers. I think shocking to people that they have the sixth ranked offense and the 18th ranked defense. In the league, I don't think many people saw the sixth rank offense coming from the Pacers. I mean, just being what they are so far, it has to drive Nate, McMillan just absolutely insane. I mean, you see some of these guys, right? Whether it's the Van Gundy's or the Lionel Hollins is or the Nate McMillans or like

the old school guys, they're just all having to leave what they've always believed in, right? By way of this is the way the NBA is now. This is the pace and space and shooting threes and offense. And so I know Nate McMillan probably cries himself to sleep every night after why. switching 118 to 114, but they have certainly overachieved. And Ola Depot and Sabonis have made that Paul George trade look way less bad than we originally expected. Victor Oladipo, this is the Victor Oladipo that was promised coming out of Indiana. I can't believe how good he is.

I always liked him with Orlando. I thought that they, I understand why they made the move. well, I understand why Oklahoma City made the move. I didn't like the return that the magic got. But the Victor Oladipo that we saw in Orlando was pretty good. The one that we saw next to Russell Westbrook wasn't because he was basically, hey, kid, go stand over there until I'm done dribbling the ball, and I might pass it to you every now and again.

That was a really bad fit for Victor Oladipo and basically like most of the supporting cast last year. This Victor Oladipo, where he's got some agency and he's got some ownership of the offense and he can utilize his skill set. He has been wonderful. He has every bit the reason why they're 10 and 8 and 8 and 10 or worse than that. He's been killing it. You got Bojan Bogdanovich, who's just been a sniper from three-point range. And, you know, Miles Turner as a young guy, and you mentioned to Manasabonis, who was filling in

while Turner was out. They've got some interesting people. Look, I didn't expect anything from the Pacers. This is far and away better than I anticipated. You know, and it was a couple of weeks ago. sitting by a Tashon Prince at a game. And I said to him, there was, you know, the scoreboard came up and it said that they were, that the Pacers, they had won a game like whatever it was, 121 to 116.

And I mentioned to him, I said, listen, I said, you know McMillan has to just like cry himself to sleep every night. Like I said, you know, and he, this is what he said. He said, you have no idea. So he played on Team USA when McMillan was one of the coaches. And he said when we were, when I was one of the coaches, he is such a defensive guy. that they would get in these meetings. And he was like, him and Mike Dantone, like, literally almost fist fought, like, in the locker

room, like all the time because Dantone would come in there. And he'd be like, all right, guys, like, they'd be playing whoever. And he'd be like, we're going to, I want you to go out there. I want you to score 150 tonight, right? That's going to be our goal. We're going to score 150. And McMill would be like, listen, when we play against Spain and we play against Greece and we play against these teams, we've got to be able to defend.

And Mike Dantone would say, nobody is fucking scoring 100. 150. Like I promise, I don't care if it's Greece, if it's pain. Like, nobody's scoring 150, Nate, right? And they would just like battle back and forth. And it was this idea that they were polar opposites with the way they viewed basketball, polar opposites. And now I see McMillan's team in the way they're playing. And I can't help but get that out of my head. I know he resents this so much. But they're having good success. They're playing. I mean, look, they're ninth in pace this year. So they're playing at a pretty good speed. And like I said, they're bombing away from three. And look, it's worked out for them so far. I don't know about you.

As I said, I didn't have any expectation for this team whatsoever. So this is all to the good. They're playing with house money here. Yeah. All right. Two more real quick. The Bucks. As we said, I was surprised that the Pacers are sixth in the NBA in offensive efficiency.

Also surprised that the Bucks are 22nd in defensive efficiency. given how much Jason Kidd does care about that end of the court and this freakish, no pun intended, length that they have all through that roster. The 14th in offense, which is middle of the pack, 20 seconds of bottom 10 in the league in defense, and they are 8 and 8 so far. I would certainly say through 16 games, especially given that Janus, for a good portion of that, has been possibly the best player in the league. It's overwhelming, right?

It is a little underwhelming for 500 record, 23rd in net rating. I want to see Eric Bledsoe be incorporated, you know, over a longer period. We've got a very small sample size right now. My thing, I look at these pieces and I think this should be a really good team. You mentioned Janice. He's an absolute monster. He's unguardable. He does so many things while shooting, obviously, from distance, not one of them, but everything

else, he's just like a virtuoso. And you add in Eric Bledsoe, who I love and I think has been one of the more underrated players for quite a long time in the NBA. You've got Chris Middleton who can shoot from the outside. Tony Snell, fine. He can hit some three-pointers when you need them. And eventually, you're going to get Jabari back. These are not bad players. I look at the Eastern Conference, and I like them better than the Pacers. You know, the Pacers have a better record right now, but I like them better than the Pacers. I like them better than the Knicks. This should be a solid playoff team. Last one, the Knicks. Porzingis. I mentioned that Yon is a

been one of the best players in the league. Porzingis is first in the NBA in blocks. He is fourth in scoring in the NBA. And the Knicks offense, I think is 11th right now, which I cannot believe. So is this going to go the wrong way on the Knicks? Or are they a possible 500 tick over 500 team? Look, I don't think once they decided to just go with KP, I think a lot of people expected the Knicks to take a massive step back. in hopes of building for the future. You mentioned that they're 11th in offense, their 15th in net rating. They're two games over 500.

I don't understand how it's happening because offensively you've got Chris Taps, Porzengis, okay, fine. And then after that, you're relying a lot on Tim Hardaway, Jr. And every time I see him step on the floor, and I know that there are people who like Enos Cantor, every time I see Enis Cantor step on the floor,

I go, oh yeah, Enis Cantor plays for the next. He scores some, and he rebounds, and that is it. He doesn't do anything else. I guess he's a good team guy, but you're relying on Courtney Lee and Doug McDermott. Jared Jack is still out there. Frank Nilakina, Frankie Smokes,

I think he's a good defensive player, but he looks still very lost on offense. Where are you getting off-runs from long-term on this team? And it sounds like I'm the only one still talking. I think we ended up, we still got me and Isaac Lee, but I think we lost Chris Vernon due to some technical difficulties. So not only did I fill in, in for KOC. Now I'm filling in for Chris Vernon, so I think that that's probably where we're

going to wrap it up here. We wish everybody a happy Thanksgiving. Thanks so much for listening to the Ringer NBA show. The guys will be back next week. See it. Support for today's show comes from Hotel Tonight, an awesome app for finding and booking great deals at great hotels. No crashing on an air mattress in your childhood bedroom this year. Instead, lock down your holiday plans with hotel tonight. Book a room up to seven days in advance everywhere and up to 100 days in advance in certain major cities. Or wait until the last minute if that's more your speed and you can make a break for it when Uncle Tony starts talking politics. Whether you need a room for tonight, the holidays or beyond, you definitely want to download the Hotel Tonight app.