The Ringer NBA Show - The Nuggets are Unstoppable. Plus, Harden Watch and Boston’s Best Shot at a Comeback | Group Chat

Episode Date: May 21, 2023

The guys return with an exciting reaction episode to Game 3 of the Western Conference Finals between the Denver Nuggets and the Los Angeles Lakers, with Rob Mahoney checking in live from Crypto.com Arena. The guys start off touching on the Nuggets' cohesive effort in the 2-man game with Nikola Jokic and Jamal Murray. Next, they talk about the Lakers' offense lacking, switching up their rotation and D’Angelo Russell’s struggles (10:27). Rob speaks on the overall vibe in the post-game press conferences (19:07), LeBron’s performance (20:09), and a potential Kyrie Irving and LeBron James takeover for next season (23:10). Later in the episode, the guys discuss the news around James Harden potentially going back to the Rockets and how that will affect Joel Embiid and the 76ers (31:05). And lastly they share their quick thoughts on the Eastern Conference Finals as the series shifts to Miami (46:37). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Jade Whaley Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Ariel Hawani, and I wanted to let you know that each and every week, I'm part of a great program called The Ringer MMA Show. I hosted alongside two absolutely brilliant minds. Their names, Chuck Mindenhall and Pizzie Carroll, and every Thursday, a new episode drops where we preview the weekend in mixed martial arts and react to all the biggest news. Plus, after every UFC pay-per-view, we give you a post-fight show. So this is what you have to do. Just follow the Ringer M-M-M-A show on your Spotify app.

So you don't miss an episode. We'll talk to you then. I am Justin Barrier. And joining me, two dudes that are just aggressively rubbing their foreheads together. Rob Mahoney, Big Waz, what's up, boys? Oh, you know, just basking in the glow of the Denver Nuggets victory. It's so good.

A Denver side that I told you, Justin Varyer, back in October, if not September, was headed to the NBA finals. I told you they had the best unit in the NBA as far as their offense. I told you that Bruce Brown and KCP were perfect off-season acquisitions. And I told you that Nicola Yokic would be the straw

that stirred the drink the entire time and it's all come to pass. Don't call me Woz no more. Call me Miss Cleo. By the way, Was, can you remind me who you voted MVP

when we did that? Janice happened to the coop. Okay. Just starting to clear that up. Well, Rob, you are literally basking in the glow

of what happened in Crypto because you're broadcasting from the stands, it looks like, from the arena. You went to the game tonight. Yeah, basking in the glow

or in the graveyard that was Crypto.com Arena a couple of hours ago. I mean, this place cleared out quick. In part because the Nuggets, I mean, systematically pulled the Lakers apart

down the stretch of this game. I think there are a lot of different interesting stages of talk about Jamal Murray absolutely dominating at the outset. A lot of interesting machinations with Yokic and foul trouble throughout the middle of this game. But down the stretch, a lot of side pick and roll for Yokic and Murray, a lot of just two-man games,

spam over and over getting great look after great look after great look. The kind of thing we're used to seeing a LeBron team do. But LeBron was on the receiving end of it this time. I mean, boy, was it a thing to watch. Yeah, I think the third quarter is where the game was ultimately lost. I assume that the Lakers would be able to win game three. They're back home.

I thought they might get a way more favorable whistle because that just generally tends to happen when they're home. They're a team that gets to the paint, draws contact, and is able to get guys stars, especially in the foul trouble. I assumed that they'd be able to attack Yokic and get some calls. And they did. And Yokic went out by the middle of the third quarter. and the nuggets were only up four points. After being up about 14, 16 points in the first quarter,

they were only up four. By the time Yolkich came back, they were up two. The Lakers only cut into that lead by two points with the real MVP on the bench. And so once that happened, it kind of just spelled death for them. And the fact that Kenny, man, KCP, doing this to them, the team that traded him that just felt like,

oh, it'd be a, you know what we should do? Get rid of our wing death for Russell Westbrook. The guy that was part of that trade to D.C., just sending the Lakers to hell, sweet, sweet, sweet poetry. We need to clear out to zoom in on Kenny specifically, though. Like, incredible game. Obviously, he's such a smart, economical player. He's one of the best defenders in the league.

But, man, he's freaking fearless. Because there were stretches in that third quarter where he was the best thing the Nuggets offense had going. And there are three and D guys and there are three ND guys who can do that who are ready for those moments and those shots. And KCP was everything they needed him to be. Definitely helped who was guarding KCP

for large stretches of this game. But we'll get to the DeAngelo Russell problem a little bit. But I just thought this was probably the most symbolic win for the Nuggets all playoffs because at first you had the giant Jamal Murray performance picking up right where he did in the fourth quarter of game two. Yokish came on late.

even though he, in air quotes, was limited throughout most of this game, but he definitely gave them the finishing kick that they needed. And in between, it was KCP and it was Bruce Brown, who when they went on that big 13-0 run, Brown and I believe Jeff Green had eight of those points. And I think this is what is so impressive about the Nuggets this postseason is that they are the most complete team, definitely in the Western Conference and maybe on the playoff boards in general in comparison to a team with like the Lakers, which is struggling to find offense from a Vando, from a Russell, the nuggets are just in a different class. Yeah, and the net result of that is you ended with five different nuggets with four assists

a piece, right? The ball is moving. Everyone's getting their turn to create. Everyone's getting their turn to finish plays. And you even have guys like, you know, a guy we haven't mentioned yet, Michael Porter Jr., not a good prototypical game from him. Like, did not shoot terribly well. Was not the kind of threat from long range you would expect him to be. But man, he made, incredible plays for other people. He got some huge contested defensive rebounds. All like just to dig it out of the trenches stuff that we always wondered

about with the Nuggets. Is MPJ going to be up for that? Is Jamal Murray going to be up for getting targeted defensively in ways we saw him get targeted earlier in this series? They've had answers for all those things. They've come up huge in those moments in exactly the way you're saying, Justin. They've had not only this complete starting lineup,

but been able to go to Bruce Brown for crucial minutes, been able to go to Jeff Green for crucial minutes. All that stuff is really paying off for them right now. And now they're a win away from the NBA finals. Yeah, in certain series in the playoffs, we've seen it time and time again where you have your two sort of load stars in Murray and Yolkich and the defense is going to load up on those actions. Sometimes they've got to send a third guy to defend what they're doing in the two men. And so, of course, obviously, that leaves the defense vulnerable in other areas. And in certain series, sometimes the Bruce Browns of the world,

the Jeff Greens of the world, they get the ball. If they don't reconstruct and hold it and pass it to somebody else, it's a complete and utter brick and it's deflating, it's demoralizing, and it's the kind of things

that happen that tank a team series. Honestly, teams lose series on those shots. Instead, the nuggets are passing it out to Bruce Brown and Jeff Green, guys who, they're not, you know, it's not Tony Allen taking this shot, but you don't think of them as dead-eye shooters. It's the kind of thing you're like, hey, if my choice is between Yokic taking a hook shot from three feet in or Murray taking a wide open jumper off of the two-man game and Bruce

Brown taking a, you know, a decently open, barely contested shot of Jeff Green, I'm going to go with that every time. And these dudes are swishing these shots in the biggest moments of the game. in moments where Yokic isn't even on the floor. And so these bench guys coming up so huge in this key moment in the game that essentially decides the series is crucial. And Rob mentioned it, by contrast, the Lakers lost these two games because when they needed it,

they could not score. Their offense could not give it to them when they needed it. Game two, they played a hell of defensive game. They gave the nuggets all they could handle on defense. We knew that wouldn't be the case going forward. The Nuggets would find their offense. But LeBron and AD just could not come up with key buckets. And today I think that was more of the same.

Their offense just couldn't get to the level of the Nuggets. And the Nuggets are one win away from the NBA freaking finals. It's insane. And yet nobody believes in them. You know? But we got to be honest, though. You talk to Michael Malone. You talk to everyone.

It's getting there. Like, who doesn't believe in them at this point when they're up 3-0 and just blowing the Lakers out? Let me ask you so. Justin Verrier doesn't. Justin Verrier, surely. I let that go weeks, if not months ago. Okay. Days ago, stop.

Yeah. Hours. The lives. The revisionist history here is crazy, Justin. We can't act like everybody was on the nuggets. That's just not true. I will admit that going into the postseason, I had my doubts. And I'm still a little, like, puzzled why.

team has been able to really... To score them. To score, and especially when Yokic is off the floor and like, it's Jeff Green and nobody's really taken advantage of that. Like, the bench minutes have, have really buoyed them in a way that I don't think anyone was really expecting. But like, now we're three series deep in this. And I think it's pretty obvious, like I was saying up top that they're just like the most complete team. And it's just funny how like it almost seems like they need to chafe against something and someone. And in Michael Malone's case, it's the media. And like, if that's what you need to like to dig it up for the challenge like by all means but like give me a break nobody is

actually saying that you aren't a good team anymore i disagree with you justin but go ahead rob sorry i was just because they worked like they just came out here in one game three and if that's what they needed to hear that's what they needed to hear i will say coming out of this game i didn't hear quite as much chatter along those lines in these post game press conferences so maybe that particular move has been played and put back in the box and now we're going to continue on to try to take care a business if you're the Denver Nuggets and close this thing item four. But again, if that was a tactic, I really don't have any fault with it, especially with the kind of cohesive effort they got. And frankly, if you're Michael Malone, you can say whatever you want because you've coached a hell

of a game and a hell of a series. And frankly, as much as anything that happened out there, you know, we've talked about Murray and Yokic and all the component parts, Michael Malone was willing to do what was necessary with his rotation in ways that Darwin Ham wasn't. And DeAngelo Russell is the right there in the spotlight as far as that conversation goes. Just look at the contrast in these situations. DeAngelo Russell and Jared Vanderbilt start yet again for the Lakers. Let's say you even agree with that. The Lakers gave up a huge run to start this game with those guys on the floor.

DeLoh was being targeted over and over and over. And what do the Lakers do in the second half? They come out with the same starters over again. What are they doing in the fourth quarter? DeAngelo Russell is on the floor in the fourth quarter of a must-win playoff game with the game in the balance. And what are the nuggets doing on the other side? KCP doesn't play down the stretch.

Aaron Gordon sat the entire fourth quarter because the Bruce Brown, Jeff Green combination was working for the spacing that the nuggets needed in that moment. Christian Brown came into this game, made one mistake and got freaking pulled. That's what you have to do to win these games sometimes. And for whatever reason, DeAngelo Russell is beyond the pale

of what the Lakers are willing to consider with the rotation right now. Maybe Darvinham is galaxy braining the next contract negotiation. It's like he's putting it. He's putting it on tape. You know, that's like a thing football guy's like, I just want to put good play on tape. You know, some other team might want to pick me up and it's out there. Darwin Ham is doing the inverse of that.

He wants to put shitty DeAngelo Russell on tape so that the Lakers could get a more favorable deal. But no, just to go back to what Justin was saying, I think that MVP, conversation about, oh, this guy can't, you can't possibly hand the MVP three times in a row to that guy. The conversation being that we don't believe he's capable of doing the very thing that he's doing right now. Okay.

Being on the floor while his team is guarding credibly and being the focal point of what they do on offense. Like, I love Jamal Murray, but I promise you, he's not getting those buckets. If the two-man game doesn't revolve around the two. time MVP. It doesn't. Like he, even when Yokic isn't scoring, he's making this whole thing happen. Is this about DeAngela Russell?

No, this is about this about you and the disrespect from the national media. All right, let's get back to Russell. We'll give you some time this thump for an MVP that was given out weeks ago. And Russell was bad in the sense that obviously he's never giving you

top flight defense. We know that's not going to be the case. It's not his bag. But he couldn't make a shot either. Nope. And he couldn't, he couldn't get free to get, you know, he's really good in the in-between game. He's like a really good mid-range shooter.

Couldn't get free for that. Obviously, never wanted to really get to the rack. And yeah, he just couldn't help the cause on that end. And Denver just saw him as target practice and just killed this guy. So one for eight from the floor, one for six from three. He is now two for 14 from three in the entire series. And I mean, he only played 20 minutes in the game. this game. But to Rob's earlier point, it was pretty startling to see him get so much burn in the

second half, the little that he did, if only because this was the series, right? And it seemed like whatever they were going to find was probably going to come from the Schrooter, Hachamura lineup around the new big three of Reeves, AD, LeBron. I don't know, man. It just seemed like they just, him just didn't want to hit the eject button quickly enough. I know there was like reporting, I guess they had McMinneman suggested that part of it. is like they didn't want to lose him entirely for the entire series because if they pulled them too soon, then maybe it would affect his mood throughout. But like, this was kind of in Waz's parlance, like this is nut crunching time. And this was the time to probably do that.

Yeah, guess what? You lost him for the entire series because you just lost the series. Right. What are we doing here? I never understand this with, you know, I, like, obviously there's the upcoming free agency angle you have to consider. There's the holistic team chemistry. But I would, I would be hard pressed to believe that LeBron James and Anthony Davis and even if you want to consider Austin Reeves and Dennis Shrewd and Ruehacham are the guys who are actually showing up to play in this series would they really be so pissed if you benched Angelo Russell like would those guys not understand they're seeing what we're seeing no absolutely not it's the angelo Russell guys like he doesn't have some some level of cashé with this team

or in this league I think there's something to be said when Coaches are afraid to bench a Russell Westbrook, who among his peers has a high level of respect and regard for the things that he's accomplished. DeAngelo Russell ain't that. The guy made a fluky-ass all-star team in Brooklyn, and that's it. He's been trade bait ever since. Lord, have mercy, last year in the playoffs, this was his reality. He's had amazing moments during this run to the point where certain points I was like, oh, is DeAngel Russell actually good? That happened this entire postseason run,

but I don't think anybody could be like, oh my God, how could Darwin hand bench Dilo? Like, what are we doing? Yeah, and like the Vanderbilt minutes we should point out, especially offensively, we're tough as well. And just seems like I was always big, if we're taking victory laps,

I guess I could take a retroactive one for suggesting in the summer that all the Lakers needed was like rotation players to fill out around AD and LeBron. But like, it seems like, like that that kind of approach has reached its limits where it's just they have too many one way guys around the three guys that like they just don't have enough to go up against a team as completed as the nuggets personally I'm at the point where it's like can we just try to see if like Beasley will hit four threes and like 10 minutes or something but I mean if you thought

I don't see the difference between Dilo yeah right you know at least maybe he'll make a shot that's fair I'd rather just stretch out Lonnie Walker than that personally sure like just play Lonnie more minutes at this point. Because really, this is the issue. LeBron and AD, whenever they have the ball, there are three nuggets in their way effectively. Denver is banking at all on the fact that they can clog the lane and make it out to Russell and Schroeder.

And even Lonnie Walker, even Ruri Hachamur, even the guys that are hitting, they're betting they can make it out to them and contest. And they're winning. They're winning on that gamble right now. And a lot of that is they do look very connected. Guys like KCP are flying around. the floor. Bruce Brown are flying around the floor, but they're just playing really good cohesive team defense right now in a way that hides and protects Yokic and Jeff Green from

exactly the kind of liability you were talking about. Just like, why aren't these teams targeting these guys? It's because they have a lot of support right now. They have a lot of guys backing them up. And all of those role players for Denver are covering ground in exactly the way they have to. Also, I think it's worth mentioning when these guys played three years ago, one, Yokich is way better now. It must be said. He's just a more. complete player, he has more counters, he has more tricks, all of that. He's stronger. He's faster. He's, he's all of those things. But the one way guy that they were playing was Dwight Howard. So it's like, all right, Vando, I'm playing you and all you do is defense, but you're not guarding

our biggest problem, right? Whereas Dwight Howard was making life difficult for Yokic and he freed up AD to do whatever he wanted. Right now, AD is like essentially, he's not roving. He's a dedicated Nicola Yokic defender just coming from a different angle when they put Rui or they put LeBron or whoever that they put on Yokic. So it's like it's a guy who's out there for only defense and he can't be used against the biggest threat on the other team's offense. Right. And so it's compounded that way. And man, he freaking damn near airballed a corner three tonight where I was just like, all right, get this man out of my game immediately. And so, yeah, it'd be one thing if the defensive specialist guys were people who could credibly be left on an island or deal with whatever Denver was trying to do with their two main threats, they're not. And so, yeah, it's getting really, really tough for the Lakers right now.

I had the exact same reaction on that Vando 3 that barely clipped rim. I had my eyes glued to Darvinham's sideline. Is he going to flinch? Am I going to see him wave for somebody off the bench, like right now? Because those are the stakes of these games. and I don't know why the Lakers have been slow to respond in that way, other than the fact that I guess if you take Vanderbilt and Russell out of the rotation, you're left with just basically six guys running out there at this point.

Hey, I'm just like pulled at his collar and gave one. I'd be like, oh. So I know, Rob, they probably didn't talk much tactics in the postgame press conferences, but what was like the vibe out there? Like, were there any sort of like pokes at any sort of answers to what they could do down the stretch. Do you think there's anything left for them to try to trot out here? I mean, there's always something for them.

You know, these are not blowout games by any means. We're talking about three losses in total 20 points is the total separation of these three games for as well as Murray played in the first half, for as well as Yokech just played on balance for the fact that they are getting all of these sterling performances from their role players, all of that amounts to a 20 point margin over three games. That's not insurmountable. what is insurmountable for the Lakers is winning four straight games

with their own supporting cast and the role of the dice that is like are we getting a good Dennis Schrooter shooting game tonight or not? Are we getting again absolutely elite Ruri Hachamura showings where he seems to never miss? Like are we going to get enough of those to win this when the elephant in the room right now

is that LeBron did not look particularly good in this game? And there's lots of reasons why he didn't and I'm not, he's certainly not the person you put the blame at the feet of, but he didn't look like a guy who can just put this team on his back and carry them over the finish line. And I think the nuggets were very diplomatic about that fact. Like Yokic brought up unprompted,

you know, I think the language he said was, I'm not scared of this, like, because LeBron is on the other team, but he's very conscious of the fact that LeBron can basically accomplish anything. I don't know that this version of LeBron can accomplish anything. And if he could, I think we'd be looking at a pretty different result than down O3. Yeah, I would encourage people if they could to try to find some of the clips from game five of the bubble in the finals against Miami what LeBron did. The guy was just way more athletic and could impose his will in a way that he just can't right now. Maybe it's the foot that the LeBron James of Feet said, quote unquote, doesn't need surgery.

Maybe it's age. Maybe it's a combination of both compounding one another. He just, he can't dominate in the way that he can't. kid because even some of the times I'm just watching them do a straight up drive at Yolkich where the old LeBron meaning four, five, six years ago, this guy Yokic is toast in an isolation against LeBron. The guy's either getting a layup or he's getting hacked or he's drawing a bunch of help and spraying out to shooters.

Right now they're just like, nah, yoke can handle LeBron at the rim. No problem. The dude who everybody said, Justin, cannot be part of a chair. Championship quality defense. As you say that LeBron can't even move. You're like, but Yon could just defense. No, Rob, when LeBron hit those back-to-back threes, was there just like a parting of the fans?

Like, did they play Hallelujah when that happened? They ascended, you know? The building was absolutely rocking at that point. And look, it's been long overdue. LeBron's shooting struggles in the series have been, have been well stated and understood. But man, if he can't, as Woz is laying out, attack Yokich one-on-one, and he can't.

I mean, we saw it. The first time that happened, you could see LeBron kind of performatively, almost like lick his chops, like, waving people out of the way, really calling for his moment, and then the play didn't really go anywhere. And just settling for those shots over and over. If you're going to settle for a lot of threes in your LeBron, you're going to have to hit a lot more of them than you've been hitting. And he's done some incredible things in the series at certain points. Like, just the fact that he was able to guard Yokic as much as he didn't game two was in itself incredible. but man, he just looks like a guy who doesn't quite have enough.

And I'm wondering about the LeBron James of Feet now. Like, is the LeBron James of Feet the 2012 LeBron James of Feet or is he the 2023 LeBron James of Feet? And if so, what does that mean for his credentials as a master of feet? I think he's the 2004 LeBron James of Feet.

He's got to Kevin Love of Feet. Well, relatedly, were there any hints? I don't know what locker room access looks like these days, but any hints of like maybe Kyrie Irving going to LeBron in the shower and being like, man,

let's do this, Ron Artast style. You know, our guy formerly known as Ron Artax is actually at the game tonight. A lot of Laker, a lot of Laker legends showing out. We had Paul Gasol in the house.

One Laker game ops motivational tactic when the crowd was kind of dying down a little bit was they showed Jack Nicholson's sitting courtside. They showed Dennis. First of all, he looked ridiculous. Like, could you smell the fumes of what?

whatever is going on for him, like, from your seat? I just hope he's having a good time, you know? So they showed, they showed Jack. Then they showed Denzel sitting courtside. You know, he's, he's hamming it up for the camera. Then they just go back and forth. Jack Denzel. Jack Denzel.

And the hopes that it would get the crowd, like, you know, stirred into a frenzy. And it didn't really work, I got to say, you know, not the most, not the most enthused crowd when the nuggets are picking your team apart, it turns out. It's tough. I will say, though, Kyrie Irving situation.

It's seeming more and more likely by the week. You know? All signs point to him going back to the Mavs, but like I was saying before, it just seems like the Lakers are now at this point. If they want to get past this point, they need someone to take the reins. And as good as AD has been in this series,

he's just not the guy who's going to be taking those dagger shots from the clutch. And LeBron, unfortunately, doesn't seem like he's going to be up to that next year when he's going to be stretching into his late 30s and then into his 40s. Yeah, I think it's, I mean, Kyrie Irvin is better than DeAngelo Russell. I feel confident in saying that.

We can break news on this podcast. Kyrie Irvin, better basketball player than DeAngelis Russell. He's probably better at defense when he's engaged, which is an insane thing to say. Yeah. Just obviously a more well-rounded, polished player and just would, yeah, he would, a lot of these shot creating sort of things, these fires, that Denver, when Yolch is like, I'm not worried about it, they don't feel like they have to put fires out. I think somebody as dynamic as Kyrie, if he were to be on this team, instead of a DeAngelo Russell.

Yeah, I think that would present more problems. And look, I don't think the Lakers are way worse than the Nuggets. I just think they don't have the answers as a collective right now. They can't say, oh, we feel confident that we can put one guy on Yokic and guard credibly enough that we'll let the rest of our talent sort of dictate what these other guys are doing and help where we can, recover where we can. They just don't have the answers. They're not built to beat this Nuggets team right now.

But I don't think they're way worse because, as Rob said, it's only been 20 points in three games. Yeah, they're definitely nowhere near what they, people, I think, assumed they were at certain points in this season. Like, they're right there, which is a minor miracle, we should say. It's a minor miracle that LeBron has even given him what he's been giving him. It's a minor miracle that 80 has been healthy and looking as dominant as he's been this entire postseason. Like, the fact that they got here deserves to be celebrated.

But it does feel like, and I wonder if this is going to bear out over the off season, like that they were just there and they could have used that a little bit of extra star juice that they probably were lacking. And we'll see, it's highly complicated, we should point out for them to completely wash away a lot of the guys that they added

at the trade down line to add Kyrie. So it would basically be just taking a mulligan on a lot of the guys that got you at this point. And like, Rui's been a really good player. Vanderbilt has essential. Yeah.

Vanderbilt has more to his game. Mike Beasley, we'll see. I know, we're going to talk a lot of Lakers this off season. I have a sneaky suspicion. You think? I just,

Have a sneaky suspicion. We're going to find a way to discuss what the Lakers do with the roster in the offseason. One last thing I want to say, Mike Malone hat-tipped to what he's done this year, this entire playoffs. The fact that he's, isn't he like the longest 10-year coach outside of Spowe or something crazy like that? Please, please, Mike Malone. I love you. I love what you're doing. You're a tri-state area guy.

I love you. Stop snitching on your players, please. When he did the freaking Michael Porter, Jr., told me, coach, I just want to win you. Have permission to bench me for Bruce Brown? I don't know why he put that out there. And then he did the thing today where he said, Jamal Murray came up to him after he got the last injury and was like,

are you guys going to trade me now because I'm damaged goods? And I told Jamal that he's one of ours. He's, bro, stop doing this. stop telling the inner most vulnerable most moments of your freaking guys. Stop, Mike Malone. Was, we work in the media. What are you doing right now? I just to bring this full circle, it's that Michael Malone at the dais might want to take a little bit of mustard off of some of the story times.

Don't change up, man. I'm, I know. I'm into it. But before we exit this conversation, I don't. know that we've said enough about Jamal Murray and the heater he was on in the first half of this game when I mean just as good as I think we've ever seen him play basketball to the point where I think in the first half to be totally honest the nuggets did not have a particularly elegant solution for you know like the Rui Hachemurey Yokic stuff like everything that kind of ailed them

in the series the solution was Jamal Murray doesn't miss any shots and that solution turned out to be pretty effective but I would really like to quote the poet J.R. Smith who I saw tweeted during Murray's first half. And his tweet was, this is a direct quote, someone please help, double something. Oh my goodness.

Jared Smith, known for his defensive acumen, yeah. Who would know better what it feels like to get absolutely cooked the way that various Laker defenders were getting cooked?

That's a good point. So Murray, 40 points on 14 for 17 shooting between the fourth quarter of game two and the first quarter of game three. in game three had 17 points on 8 for 10 shooting in the first quarter of loan. He finished with 37 points.

Yeah, I mean, always a different team when he's cooking on that level. All right, why don't we take a quick break and we come back? We're going to talk a little bit of offseason and a little bit of game three between the Celtics and the heat on Sunday. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. All great athletes take care of their bodies, which is why I take AG1 every day. Just one scoop of AG1 greens powder. mixed in water every day gets me 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food sourced ingredients to round up my diet. Now that the playoffs is coming to an end, I have been trying to get back

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slash ringer MBA. That's drinkag1.com slash ringer MBA. All right. I don't want to go full deep dive into the Harden Conspiracy Theory because we did a little bit of it last week when the Sixers were ejected from the playoffs. But I did want to talk about this news brief from our friend Keith Pompey at the Philadelphia Inquirer, who's basically suggesting that Harden to the Rockets might be a done deal. His specific lead was that the belief among NBA executives, is that Hardin will join the Rockets this summer.

So not like confirming it fully, but in his next paragraph, it says that the Rockets, when they were hiring Emé Adoka as their next head coach, were asking about coaching Hardin in the interview process. And so I think we expected this wise, but as like it's being laid out before us, I'm just like I'm a little perplexed and confused

that Hardin would still be willing to join a team that was among the worst in the NBA last year. You know, I wonder what's happening here because I remember we made about a million jokes about Hardin and his camp because it came from his camp when on Christmas Eve, it was floated that,

yeah, James Hardin is more than willing to go back to the Rockets. We took it as negotiation 101, where it's just like, if you guys don't want to pay me as much as I think I'm worth. I have another suitor who I'm, you guys know I'm more than happy to go do. Y'all know I'm not serious about winning.

Y'all know I don't care for being a leader and having pressure and having expectation and, you know, being some franchise cornerstone who holds people accountable and holds myself accountable. I'm more than happy to not have to do that anymore. I'll be happy to do that in Houston. And I thought it was just a negotiation tactic. Apparently, it's hard in,

exercising his genuine will to go back to Houston. Yeah, who knew it was like when LeBron was laying the breadcrumbs of like, oh, I might actually entertain going back to Cleveland someday as a member of the Miami Heat. I'm coming home. They're going to play that at all the strip clubs when he resigns. People going. Yeah, I just, I guess if that's his preference, it just seems like a very weird turn for a guy who was not only a former

MVP, but like, is kind of one of the most important players of this most recent generation of basketball. I mean, he really kind of pioneered a style of playing. I mean, Mori was a big factor in that as well. It's just, it, it's just like continues a bizarre stretch of decisions and career stops for, for what, it's becoming like one of the most bizarre NBA superstars we've had in a while. Okay, but do we know that Philly hasn't taken a hard stance salary-wise? Isn't it possible that they could have been like James we're not paying you 40 mil a year yeah the other side of it with philly is that like what do they do if he just straight up walks because they won't have enough cap space that in order to come close to a player of his caliber even in his diminished state

and like you could put together trade packages but a lot of their picks are encumber just because of just how they roll over and the protections on them so i don't know you more he's going to have to do some real like advanced calculus to come up with someone even like resembling a harden if he walk. Yeah, I don't know that they necessarily can. And certainly if you do, it would take someone like Tyrese Maxi as a centerpiece of that deal. And then you're really talking about diminishing

returns. A thin roster. A very thin roster already. You're losing your essential playmaker, the guy who led the league and assist the season in James Harden and your second side score. For what? That would be a really tough position for Philly to find itself in. But

to your point, Justin, more baffling I think is what is it that James hard in his after here. And maybe the reality is he's gone through kind of two of these contending super teamish situations now and decided like, you know what? I'm good. Trying to win championships isn't all that is cracked up to be. Hard work, dedication, focus, guts, toughness.

Who wants to deal with any of that? Well, you can just go to a young team in Houston with no expectations. You guys win 40 games. They'll throw you a fucking parade. Oh, God, yeah. And it's great. And they're going to pay you. and expect nothing of you.

It's, it's, I mean, to a certain extent, I respect the decision, honestly. Like, if somebody wants to overpay the shit out of you to do nothing, then, you know, like, that's the dream. But, you know, man, yo, his reputation as a player is going to be tough, I think. He's going to have these very gaudy statistics and career accomplishments when it comes to gold medals, all-star selections, all NBA selections,

all of those things. points scored, assist, all of these things, three point baskets made. He's going to pile up a lot of hard statistics. But I don't see how anybody can come away from watching. Let me ask you guys this. Another guy who we're going to talk about at some point. At their best, would you rather have Jimmy Butler or James Hardin? I mean, Butler just doesn't have the track record at this point.

Hardin's like accolades in regular season. been as good as Jimmy Butler has been. I know. In the last four playoffs, discounting 2021, where he was completely hurt. When has James Harden ever been that good in the playoffs? I know. That's the thing. If you're like... Not once. One guy for a playoff series, it's

obviously Butler, I think. Yeah. But the difference is like, if James Hardin is at his peak, your 50 wins minted like high seed going into the playoffs every season. Now, does he perform in those series when he gets there? That's kind of the philosophical debate. I would,

would be hard pressed to say I would take even MVP Hardin over absolute peak bucks killing Jimmy Butler right like that's that's a hell of a player Celtics killing Jimmy Butler present tense Celtics killing Jimmy Butler man it's also a completely like almost mirror image of of the careers where it's like Harden bounce from team to team just trying to find someone who would like let him be him whereas Jimmy Butler is going from team to team because he's like just so disappointed that everyone else is in a cold-blooded killer. Psychotic as he is. Yeah. But this is so weird. This is the thing, though,

is like we're talking about what is James Harden value? And at the end of the day, maybe he does just value going to a city where he's pretty revered, cashing a huge check, playing basketball on more or less his terms with a team that may or may not be any good. Like, maybe that's enough for him. Jimmy Butler, there's really not a question of what he wants. The question is like, does the organization have the stomach for it? Because Jimmy Butler will tell you who on your team actually wants to win and who doesn't. and he'll call them out in practice,

and he will be kind of an asshole to them. And he'll be an asshole to you too, executive or coach or basically anyone at any level of the organization. Did you see Carl Towns gave an interview about the Jimmy practice thing the other day? And essentially he framed it as, yeah, Jimmy's beef was with management.

Wasn't with us. I was like, yo, that is chef's kiss. We do need to relive one very pertinent detail. So, like, obviously there's been a lot of, you know, legendary, talk about that day recently. Jeff Teague also did a podcast on this subject. I can't, I'm blanking on which podcast it was, but a similar interview. The one detail I had that I don't think it had been out there that I find absolutely amazing is that Jimmy was wearing like,

you know, his sweats, his sweats when he came into practice, playing with the third team, took off his sweats and he was wearing official Timberwolves gear, but he had cut out all of the Timberwolves logos off the gear. So you see he just had holes in his shirt where Timberwolves used to be and where the logo used to be in his shorts. Fucking legendary stuff from Jimmy Butler. He wanted you to see his heart, Rob. This dude was born

to just live in the Lord of the Fly setting. That's his vacation. But yeah, no, the Hardin thing is just really weird. Here's the potential starting lineup for the Rockets next season if this does go down. James Hardin, Jaling Green, Kenny and Martin Jr., who I believe

wanted out just a couple weeks months ago, I think he's a good player. Good player. Jibari Smith Jr. and El Perun Shen Goon. That's getting some run on Rob's League pass for sure. Oh, no doubt. No doubt.

If only to see what happens with all this, yeah. The weird thing about it is, you know, in the grand scheme of things, I could see Hardin's place on that team being a bit of an encumbrance a couple years down the line. When you're talking about like day one, walking into next season, he elevates what they're doing. Absolutely. elevates what they're doing, no question about it, and gives them something they just have not had

over the last couple of seasons, like a real structure to what they run. Guys know where to be in the offense. They know what to do. Are they going to love those things? You know, like Alper and Chang'un is much more of a post big than a role big. Is he going to be, have fun playing with James Harden? I don't know. Like, does Jalen Green want to be a

second side, like Tyrese maxi kind of activator? I can't imagine that's what he had in mind for himself. But maybe he needs some reps doing that. Maybe he should try to perfect that role, Rob. God knows the other one he hasn't been suited to thus far. Well, I mean, speaking of the other one in this equation, I mean, we haven't talked about Kevin Porter much.

Yeah, I don't think in the James Hardin version of the Rockets, he is long for that team per se. Yeah, it's a tough one. I don't think anyone's going to be crying when Kevin Porter, Jr. moves on to whatever team will have him at this point. Yeah, I don't think so. Because we should mention also that the Rockets have a ton of cap space in addition to potentially signing Hardin.

So it's possible they get someone else in there. And it seems like they're pretty thirsty to compete now. I know they owe a top four pick to the OKC next season. So they have incentive to be good. And I guess they're going to try as much as possible, which by the way, they owe a top four pick from the Chris Paul Russell Westbrook trade in which they gave up a top four pick to get Russell.

That's a whole other story. That's disgusting. Have we seen a Starlight Hardin make a move like this if he indeed goes on to make it? I mean, obviously LeBron, when he did go back to Cleveland, joined a rebuilding team. but he was prime LeBron and they immediately traded the number one pick

for Kevin Love they changed their whole roster for vibes he's doing it they were top three seed in the east immediately afterwards right like

they told Wiggins to kick rocks and like no I can't like where you deliberately went to a team that was is not just lottery but like top four

top three pick lottery for a team that was on the brink one game from the conference finals that is man because when you see it's usually for a star who's like a cut below

All-Star looking for more of an opportunity like Joe Smith leaving the sons like that was because he wanted to be a featured guy this is literally hard in being a featured guy's

entire life just wanting to be in chill mode I guess a little bit more than or if you were just like my current team doesn't respect what I do enough and I need to go show people

at another like Horace Grant going to the magic or something like it's I don't, there is no precedent for somebody just being like, no, we were really close and now are going to want to go to a much worse team. For what we're assuming is comparable money, but which I don't think that we should do. Yeah.

But for someone who's already made a shit ton of money, right? This is not a guy looking to cash his first big check. Like James Hardin has had massive contracts, massive extensions. He's been one of the highest paid players in the league. I guess we'll see what he wants. I really don't know. Kyle Nebeck wrote a good piece. in the Philly Voice that I think you guys should check out,

where it's, he was basically suggesting in Hardin's mind, he has, he has, like, made sacrifices that he wasn't pretty, like, open to making,

but was convinced to do so, including, like, being point hardened, taking less money in order to add guys. And so he sees this as, as, like, just he made the sacrifice.

It didn't work out. And actually, this is him going back to what he prefers. So if it's just preference, I guess, you got to respect the decision. But, To lose.

I know. It's like, it's this weird, like, class of superstar. Kevin Durant has talked about this recently, where it's almost like their post-legacy or post-caring about legacy, although the difference is that Katie's very much still in the MVP title chase where it's hard and potentially could just be just wasting his final years on a meteoroker team. I don't know. Justin, are you post-legacy?

No, I'm all about my legacy. You're all about it? Why do you think we're grinding these pods at Saturday night? I remember talking to somebody who's in the player management field. And we were actually talking about Hardin specifically. And he was just like, it comes to a point, though, when you pass $200 million in earnings where, like, for certain guys, it's hard to convince them that any of this shit matters. There are guys who are going to be psychopaths no matter what. Steph, LeBron, Dame, you know, Jimmy Butler.

No matter how much you pay them, they're going to be psychotic about trying to win. LeBron's going to be like, this team that has shown nothing this year, I'm going to put off surgery and play on a bum foot because I think there's a chance. We might go to the second round. We might achieve a sixth seed, right? Like, these are guys that are wired different. But there are guys who are just like, look, I'm untouchable. Like, sure, I've got a shit legacy.

but, you know, I'm Scrooge McDuck. I'm going to, you know, swim in a pile of money and who cares? And that's why they bear the results that people like James Hardin have born. He's lost. He's been terrible. In the biggest moments, he sucked. Stunk up the joint. And that's what I'll remember James Harden for.

100%. It's all I'm going to remember him for is stinking up the joint every time his team desperately needed him to not. But, man, they were not. not just a game away. They were like three minutes away. Oh my God, bro. Game six. They were so close.

If you're a sixist fan, you still have a nightmare is about game six. Yeah. Listen, I think the elephant, the elephant in the room is becoming a beat and like what happens if Hardin leaves and he's looking around.

He's like, who am I playing with again? It's to the point where like, I don't think there's any fire, but there's a lot of smoke going around the league to the point where I was walking my dog yesterday and I bumped into Kevin Arnav's, it's former uh sports writer extraordinaire and he was like you know i don't really do this anymore

but i was talking to the few people i talked in the league you know it sounds like imb maybe there's smoke there i'm like yeah no there's a lot of smoke everywhere again not any like credible like reporting whatever but like i think there's people like watching that very closely yeah kevin come freelance at the ringer dot com what are you doing the story as you guys know there's a lot of nick fans in my life. This MB thing is it's happening. It's out there. This idea that, oh, you know, he's really good with the next brass and blah, blah, blah, blah. We'll see. Yeah. All right. Let's, let's pivot just quickly to game three. Heat Celtics. I have one burning question for this. Rob, does Boston have any moves left in the chamber other than just like not vomiting over themselves

on in the fourth quarter. I mean, of course they do. Isn't that why they're frustrating is that they do always have moves? They have a lot of really versatile players. They have one of the deepest rosters in the league. They just don't choose the right things to do. And, you know, this is why the Joe Missoula conversation

comes up and gets frustrating. They just are a team that loses their focus and they lose their ability to parse out, like, what this moment requires. To the point that, you know, the heat have thrown a lot of periodic zone at them obviously they can solve it. They show for like minutes at a time.

Oh, we're just going to hit like Marcus Smart rolling. We're going to hit, I think it was Rob Williams, made up a couple of like really smart moves in the middle of the zone. And then they just like forget how to do it for five minutes. And it's incredibly aggravating to watch. And it's the kind of thing where it makes you wonder like, man, this team should really take a time out right now to try to figure itself out. That probably shouldn't be a huge deal, right?

Like the fact that a coach won't take a time out, but the Celtics are the kind of roster and the kind of team. and that have the kind of personnel that make it a huge deal because they do have the options. They should be able to solve everything the heat have thrown at them. They seem to have a hard time really kind of seeing the forest for the trees in those moments.

All the things Rob just described is what I would refer to as toughness. They're not tough. They lack toughness. That lack of focus that you're talking about, that unwillingness to do the hard, difficult, focused thing, possession after possession, even after you get a result that isn't favorable for you, that's toughness. They don't have it.

I'm not talking about giving in Jimmy Butler's face and, you know, bumping foreheads and acting like you want to make out with the guy and doing all of that stuff. That's not toughness. Toughness is actually focusing, doing the hard thing, executing your assignment every single time. And even when you have a possession where you close out. incredibly the guy launches a shot with, you know, 0.5 seconds on the shot clock, it makes it. You do the exact same thing over again because it's about the process and repeatable habits

and winning habits and doing it over and over again no matter what the score is. No matter how well you're shooting. No matter how much Jimmy Butler's talking or he's not talking. This team lacks toughness. They're just not tough. And Miami has toughness in spades. They are just, they are demonstrating a will. a stick-tutiveness that is just crazy.

And then, you know, Jimmy Butler just being like, no, if you guys are going to guard me one-on-one, I don't give a fuck who it is. I'm going after the guy and I'm going to score every time. I was thinking about this a lot as Jimmy Butler was removing the exoskeleton of one Grant Williams like a fatality in Mortal Kombat. Like when Luca Donchich kind of gets punked, he has this look on his face like, I'm going to just like,

I'm just going to murder you. I'm going to pull you into a back room and I'm going to slit your throat, right? And I always wonder like, oh, this guy is going too far and he's going to be on tilt as a result of it. But he actually gets better. And like he rises to the moment.

Butler is doing that in spades. And so like I always blanche at times talking about mental toughness because it's kind of like this opaque, very vague thing that sports people throw out is just like a way to explain everything that's unexplainable. I think this is what mental toughness is,

where it's like you're down and you're just like, you're doing all the little extra stuff in order to win a game every single time. And when it gets down to crunch time, you're just making very calculated, calm decisions, like an extra pivot or like an up fake

where you're just a step ahead to everyone and you're winning as a result of this. Yeah, I think the toughness conversation gets, it gets a little bogged down some ways and misunderstood as a lack of physical toughness, right? Like you're not taking it inside, like you're not absorbing hits, you're not willing to play like tough physical defense.

But really, this is what it is. It's resolve, right? It's resourcefulness in those moments. It's, you know? It's grit. I hate to use that word, but it's grit. And I'm not talking about, oh, Boston is shying away from the moment.

They are unfocused as a group. Yes. Collectively, they do not focus in and hone in on the small little details. Yes, they understand that they're more talented than the heat, but they think that's enough. Yeah. And it's clearly not even that they're not doing the little things on a personal level, right?

Like they're playing hard. They're going after these plays. Like they're diving after loose balls. They're doing all those things you would want players to do in these must-win games. Just in terms of as a collective, they aren't organized to really think and operate that way, to really think and operate in terms of like that kind of. of problem solving.

And it's what's made them an inconsistent team all throughout the season. It's had them ebb and flow even throughout these playoffs and within the games in these playoffs. They just have a lot to figure out on pretty much like a game to game a minute to minute basis.

And, you know, Grant Williams guarding Jimmy Butler ain't it. There's no way that they thought that was the answer to quote our guy, Jimmy. Yeah. Good luck, Grant. Maybe there's something in the town that you can clean for this next matchup.

I will say this. Grant Williams way better than Peyton Pritchard. still. He should be playing just not as the sole defender of Jimmy Butler. Right. All right, let's wrap it there. Thank you so much to Jade Whaley for filling in on production. Thank you to Benjamin Cruz, RKCP,

just spotting up here in every pod. We'll be back on Wednesday, same time, same place. We'll see it.