The Ringer NBA Show - The Nuggets' Comeback Might’ve Saved Their Season | The Corner 3

Episode Date: April 17, 2019

We break down how Jamal Murray shot his way out of his cold streak, helping the Nuggets tie their series with the Spurs at 1-1 and potentially stopping the bottom from falling out from underneath them this playoffs (1:30). Then, we wonder whether the Thunder will be able to get back on track when they come home, considering how bad they looked on the road in Portland in games 1 and 2 (12:38). Finally, we breeze through the Eastern Conference series and do a little draft preview before the expansion of The Ringer’s NBA Draft Guide this week (31:45). Hosts: Kevin O’Connor, Danny Chau, Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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terms do apply. Welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is the Corner 3. My name's Kevin O'Connor, and joining me from Ringer Studios in Los Angeles. It's Ringer Associate Editor Danny Chow. I'm here. Let's do this. And over in Dallas, it's Ringer staff writer, Jonathan Charks.

I'm excited. It's Wednesday. It's playoff time. Let's do it. Yeah, man. We're recording this at 12, 15 p.m. Eastern time on Wednesday, and we're going to break down the Tuesday night games. And look ahead to tonight's slate at the end.

We're going to talk a little bit of NBA draft, too. So let's jump right into this guys with the Western Conference. Last night, the Nuggets made a big second half comeback against the Spurs to win 114 to 1-14 to 105, tying the series 1-1 to San Antonio for games 3 and 4. Jamal Murray won this game for the Nuggets after just a dismal game 1 and 0-4-8 showing over the first three quarters of game 2. But then, Danny, he was unstoppable in the fourth quarter hitting eight of his nine shots. And we really don't see many guys who go from borderline benchable for seven straight quarters and then going off in the fourth quarter like Murray did. I was really ready to just shout from the rooftops.

Jamal Murray sucks. Like I was so ready. Like I've never really been too big of a fan. And then he just, the shots that he made, it's like there were some shots where he was stepping back, reclining so far back. And you were just like, this guy's unbelievable. It was a complete, like, jackal and high performance. And I'm left dumbfounded.

I don't really know what to make of this. Like, what are we expecting from him going forward? Like, there has to be some middle ground, right? I think this is who he is, though, right? Like, so in this, in the playoffs so far, he's shot 16 for 41. He takes really tough shots. Sometimes they go in. Sometimes they don't.

He's a very confident player, so he'll keep taking him. I think one of the things with Mari, when I reported that, story earlier this year, both Michael Malone and Nuggest Journal manager, Tim Conley, mentioned that what they want to see from Murray moving forward is more consistency. Consistency in his effort on defense. Consistency was with his approach on the offensive end of the floor. But I think one of the things for him that will be a little bit harder to solve is the consistency with his jump shot. Like, as we know, you know, from following, you know, these guys when they're in college, consistency has always been an issue for him. It's just part of the deal

with Murray. That's why I think at the start of that game when, you know, there's rightful calls for him to go to the bench for someone like Malik Beasley, who was a more stable defender and, you know, doesn't need the ball in his hands quite as much on offense. It's understandable. But with Murray, as Malone said after the game,

like, you just get to ride it out and empower him to shoot through that, because the reward was significant. I think for me, Charks, like, you wrote about Derek White yesterday on the website, for three quarters in that game last night and in game one, White put the clamps on Murray and like in the draft

that was one of my concerns with Murray. Did he have the foot speed, the quick first step to get by those elite defenders like Derek White. He's a tough shot maker like Deany said, but I that's my concern moving forward for him in the series. It's getting him easier shot so everything's not heavily

contested against Derek White. Yeah, I think as we were talking about with consistency because as you said he's not a great athlete, it's just hard from to create separation. So he's taking tough, really really tough jump shots. And Derek White, I kind of thought, that would be the matchup of this series. And it really feels like in those first seven quarters,

the Spurs were in control because the White was going that matchup. When Murray got going in the fourth, that really kind of flipped things. I think, too, for Denver, really the big adjustment, it's kind of, in that fourth quarter, they benched to Bill Barton,

who's been horrible, this whole series? Barton's been horrible, man. It's disappointing. He had that, that, I forget, the core injury that he had towards the end of the end of the end of the end of the beginning.

Yes. I mean, that's a very unusual injury for him to have to come back from that affects your entire body. And Barton just does not look right. And I felt bad for him, you know, getting booed by a lot of Nuggets fans. For somebody, he's been, he was here before all this. He was part of the reason why this team has the chemistry that they have, why they have

the culture that they have with this team. It sucked. It sucks for him that he's playing at this poor level. But at this point, I do think Michael Malone moving forward does need to consider playing Malik Beasley over him, even in the starting lineup, but definitely finishing games like he did last night. Danny, he played the final 12 minutes. Barton played zero in that fourth quarter.

Is this something moving forward that Denver needs to do, or should they continue promoting Barton because of the things that he can bring when he's on? I mean, the thing with Barton right now is that this is not, this is just not the Will Barton we've been seeing over the past few years as like a microwave spark plug scorer. He's shooting 28% from the field in the series, but what's worse is actually how badly he's shooting on open shots.

So NBA.com characterizes wide open shots as having no defender around you within six feet. Barton has shot one for six on those attempts, and his last shot in the last game was just like, it was so sad. So he gets into a pick and roll with Mason Plumley, DeRosen gets nailed on the screen. So Barton's just wide open in the corner. Lamarcus Aldridge is just like camped out in the paint because he's like, look, Barton's not going to make this shot. Barton shoots the shot from the corner and it clanks off the side of the rim. Oh, yeah, I remember that.

You're just here, you hear the Denver, like, crowd just groaned so loud. It was so embarrassing. Like, it was really sad. They're leaving them open. They're giving them with that, like, no respect defense.

And that's the tough part here because Barton does bring that secondary playmaking presence for you. We mentioned how Murray might not be able to be a shot creator or a playmaker when he's defended by Derek White. That's where Barton's important. comes into play. Otherwise, I think you're going to have to rely a lot more on Monta Morris coming

off the bench, which is fine. He's a very steady playmaker. But Barton is the guy who raised your ceiling in the sense that he's not going to go off every game. He's not always going to have big nights, but he's somebody who can. And the fact right now is they don't have that. And it means more of the responsibility is on Jamal Murray. And also the one guy we haven't mentioned, Nicola Yokich, who the Spurs have turned into a playmaker. I don't think they doubled him quite as much in last night's game. They were a little bit softer where they're doubled, but they do want to turn Yokic into a playmaker rather than being a score, which he's fine with doing.

But nobody's hitting shots still on the perimeter for this Nuggets team that hasn't shot the ball well at all since around early February. And moving forward in the series, someone needs to start hitting shots. Well, that's where Beasley and Morris are important. Those are probably their two best perimeter shooters. Yeah, Beasley and Morris for sure. And then also Paul Millsap and last night's game was. tremendous from the start. He was the guy who even kept them within striking distance early in the

game, driving easily past Rudy Gay. At his age, Charks, he seems to still be able to make a significant impact. Yeah, they've been killing it, Millsap and Yokic. Really, where Denver's really been hurting is when they have both those two guys off the floor and just Mason Plumley is in. So I look at the numbers. This is kind of crazy. They're minus 50.9 in the 13 minutes where Plumley is on and Mills Saperiokage are both off. I think you'll see them staggered their minutes. They're two-star big, so one's always on the floor going forward. Yeah, and one guy we haven't talked about at all is Gary Harris,

who had a great game yesterday. 10 first 16 from the field, 3 of 6 from 3. I think he is the kind of stabilizing force that they have on the wing that would allow them to kind of play a less experienced player like Beasley into the starting lineup. And, yeah, I honestly, do you guys think they should swap out? Barton for Beasley to kind of stabilize their starting unit? Yes.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think maybe if you do continue to start Barton because he's the veteran, he's got to be on a short leash. I think Beasley, like he was on game two last night, he needs to be the guy finishing games unless Barton is rolling. But he hasn't had really a strong streak of games quite a long time, maybe since last season for that matter.

And Gary Harris, for that matter, also, you know, this season had his struggles as well. And this is the first time in quite a while. He's paired together a couple of good games in a row. And that's encouraging moving forward for the Denver Nuggets. And for the spurs, I do wonder, what are the types of adjustments, Danny, that you think that they should be making moving forward in this series, whether it's with lineups or whether it's doubling Yokic or personnel changes? I actually think they've been doing a pretty good job with Yokic. I think Pertil's been solid enough. Bertels been really good.

Yeah. I would love to see more Bertons, my guy. He's been their most effective player in terms of plus minus. So, like, to me, the guy who's that I play better is Rudy Gay. So he's not spacing the floor. He's going to kill on defense by Millsap. I wonder if they move more towards Burtons at the four at the end of games than Rudy Gay, because at least Bertons, that man does not miss open threes.

Goes in every single time, it seems like. Yeah, Bertons can at least space the floor for you, but probably quite hopeless on the defensive end, though. That's the thing is like, Rudeau. Yeah. Millsap's been the one who's really heard

in them as like the four spot. Or do they go big with LMA on Millsap and keep Pertil in? I think that to me is the question for San Antonio is that power forward position.

Regardless of who's next to Aldridge, he needs to also step up his game as well. He's only 14 for 39 shooting so far the series. Yokic has done a really, really nice job defending him on the post. And Denver has done a good job as well

as helping and doubling Aldridge as well. I think what worked well last saying something I'd like to see San Antonio go to a little bit more is the pick and pop with Aldridge. Yokic has a harder time stepping out, dropping on the pick and roll and then closing onto Aldridge

for his mid-range jumpers that he shoots for an elite rate for mid-range. I wish he would pop to three-point range. Right. It's so crazy. It's just all easy points. It's just open points are giving away. It's crazy. Yeah, it's really unusual. And like I understand because he's a

he's a really, really great mid-range shooter and a subpar three-point shooter. But in the playoffs, I'm a little bit surprised he hasn't extended to three-point range on those problems. Maybe that's one of the changes they have to make, sharks. It's just so weird, though, because, like, it was a development that had pretty much been going on since his final year in Portland. And then his first year in San Antonio, he was actually shooting a bunch of threes compared to his career averages. And then all of a sudden, it just kind of went away. I think Duncan was still there right in that first season. Yeah.

So he kind of had a play a little farther out. Duncan was gone. He went all back to his old habits. Yeah. He shot 105 three-pointers in his final season with the Blazers, 16 in his first one with the Spurs and 56-992 and then back down to 42 this season. He hit only 10 of those. It's frustrating.

I mean, he's still a terrific player for who he is. But that could be a difference in a series if he's taking more threes than deep mid-range twos. Granted, it was effective for him, whether it's to two-point. point range or three point range. I think moving forward, a little bit more pick and pop could be useful for the San Antonio Spurs. I would say, too, this has been the best series of the playoffs. I was pretty pumped the Nuggets won last night. I think it should be a fun seven game series. I'm looking forward to this one going forward. Do you guys feel any more confident for Denver

moving forward? Or is that just really a hot fourth quarter for them? And San Antonio still has control, especially going home in the series. I mean, I think there are adjustments to be made on both end of the floor and on both teams. I think Denver has plenty of things that they can kind of tinker with. And they have shooting, as they've shown yesterday. I mean, they shot almost 42% from three yesterday after an abysmal with like five of 28 performance in the first game. Like, I think they have adjustments to be made.

So I think, yeah, this is probably going to go seven. Let's move on to Blazers Thunder. Portland went up 2 in the series, defeating OKC 114 to 94, sort of like Jamal Murray did for D. Denver, it was two perimeter players leading the way for the Blazers to victory. Damian Lillard and C.J. McCollum combined for 62 points on 43 shots with 12 rerounds and 11 assist. 62, 12 and 11 sort of sounds like a typical night at the office for James Harden. But anyway, Jonathan, with Dame dominating this series, it appears the ass busting has flipped.

Man, that close could look really bad for Russ. He doesn't turn it around. Russ has been getting killed. Dame is absolutely crushing him right now. And I think you're seeing Dame really come into his own. How old he's like 28 right now, 29? Yeah, and he has a game that's like Taylor made for aging in this modern NBA. You know, he could have like a billups like second half of his career. Oh, yeah.

It's just, it's weird because he combines all those skills that have made Campbell Walker into like this, you know, underrated darling, but he puts it into a frame that's nearly as big as Russell Westbrook. So like he's, he attempts so many threes from, from 30 plus feet out. He attempts the same amount of Steph. The only person who takes more is Trey Young. But Trey Young does that because, you know,

it's a way to like mitigate his size differential. But Dames one of, you know, he's a solidly built, tall point guard. He should probably keep taking more, really, going forward. Yeah, absolutely. It's really a credit to Dames' player development. He's like just four or five years ago. He was already a great player, right?

But he's continued to get better every single season. And I think at this point, you know, if you're ranking the best guards, best point guards in league. It's Curry and Harden 1 and 2. And then Damien Lillard's number three. He's surpassed Westbrook and Chris Paul and Kyrie Irving in my eyes. I put Drew Holiday in there. Let's not forget that last last playoffs. He will always have that on his resume. That'll go on it's like tombstone, man. Well, that's a good way to pivot here. You know, with Damien Lillard getting 21 shots and 29 points, C.J. McCollum getting 22, 22 shots and 33 points.

is there something different Oklahoma City can do here? They've been fairly aggressive in trying to get the ball out of lower tans, but not to the extent that the Pelicans did last season with Drew Holliday and all of their defenders. Is this something that Portland, that Oklahoma City should try or can they even try with their personnel charts? I got two questions. Number one, why is Paul George guarding Alf Ruk and Minu in this year? So right now, I'm looking at the numbers. Terence Ferguson guarded McCollum on 60 possessions.

Paul George garden him on 24 possessions. Like, Paul George is supposed to be a two-way superstar. He's getting paid like $8 trillion. Stop hiding on defense. Get him on CJ because Ferguson's been treated with him. They have him on Roddy Hood and Mo Hartless. Yeah, it's crazy. If I got Paul George at a prime of his career,

I'm using him as much as I possibly can. And the other thing to me, what I've really noticed in the series, Stephen Adams looks really slow out there. They're trying to like hedge and trap with Adams, and they're getting right around him every time. it's been a underrated conversation all season long with Oklahoma City. I think even when their defense was elite earlier in the season, Adams has not looked right.

He hasn't looked the same as he did in past seasons where he developed into a really stout defensive player on the post and in picking rolls and just a guy who's so frigging big that you don't want to go near him in the paint. He's lost a little bit of a step that has obviously hurt Oklahoma City's defense as a whole, but it's made it harder for them to be aggressive in the pick and roll like New Orleans did last year. I'm not sure they can do that, even if they wanted to. I kind of worry that Stephen Adams is too tough. It's almost like the Amir Johnson thing, where Amir Johnson came into league as this very springy athletic guy,

and he just kept playing through a bunch of injuries. And by the end of his career, his ankles are like gravel. And you see Adams take these huge hits, and he just walks it off. And I'm just wondering if like, how much longer can you do this? How old is he? 25. He moves like he's 30. He moves like he's 30.

I know. I know. And that's the wild thing. It's like he feels like he's been in the league a long time. It's only been six years though. He's barely miss any games like you said, Danny plays through a lot of stuff. There's, he's not right. He's not right physically.

Just like Paul George isn't either. And that's why with this Oklahoma City team, it's like, yeah, they're going home for two games down. But I don't feel very confident in the health of their team right now. And I'm not sure what type of adjustments that they can make in terms of the system besides putting George on McCollum. That is something that they should do. But I don't think that they can change the way they're defending the Portland Trailblazers. I'm not sure that their shooting is suddenly going to get better.

That's something that you can't, you can't change. It's like maybe Ferguson gets hot. Maybe Schroeder hits shots. But it's hard to feel confident about that, Charks. Ferguson and Graham are the two X factors. And I think that is the big key for Oklahoma City. Those guys looked really scared at the moment in Portland. They're really young.

I mean, they don't have much playoff experience. You kind of hope your role players have got to shoot better at home. So the numbers this year, it looks like Jeremy Grant's really the swing. So when they win this year, Grant is shooting 40.4% from three. When they lose, he's at 33.1%. And if he's not space on the floor, there's just no room for anyone else to do anything. And that's why, you know, with Russell Westbrook, like, he has stunk offensively so far the series, shooting only 13 of 37. He has not been good ever since Katie left.

And, you know, I've bashed Russell Westbrook a lot in the past for some of his poor decision making. But it's kind of hard to blame him right now when you look at the players around him that are spacing the floor. There's not a lot of good options for him out there. I think Ross needs to make up for it by playing more focused defense, not losing his guy. off ball. Like, that is, that is so frustrating, chargues. So, he's missed a bunch of rim shots. He's had some really careless turnovers, just dribbled off his foot a few times.

Like, Russ, let's get it going, man. Yeah. He does need to, you know, take better shots. But, but I think it hurts him not having the amount of floor spaces that you would ideally like to see on a guy that's a downhill pick and roll player, which is, which touches on another part. How has Enos Canter survived in the series, Danny? How?

I mean, like, sure, he survived, but you watch the pick and roll coverage, and it's still pretty bad. Like, the dude concedes so many shots at the rim, like, almost instinctively. He drops back so far back. And instead of, like, actually walling the rim, he's, like, swiping at the ball way too early. And so he just, like, kind of lets guys buy. It's kind of hilarious. OKC's being way too cute. So I looked at the numbers.

Ennis only has 16 possessions as a defender in the pick and roll in this series. And he's in the 21st percentile of playoff players. Adams is at 26. Like, I'm not running an offense with NS can't stand on the floor. I'm not posting up Stephen Adams on Tanner. I'm running pick and rolls every single time. Like, I don't care if it's 95 times in the game until it gets it. Because that's a point every single time.

Yeah, Billy Donovan, you created a meme. Just stick with it, you know? Can't play Cantor. Make that a reality. Yeah, I mean, you got to make Portland play Myers-Lennard. I think that is the key to me, is like, attack canner, get more for your young guys, and then maybe go a little smaller. Maybe play Morris at the 5, Grant at the 5, get some space out there.

I was waiting for Grant at the 5. Only a matter of time. That's the Trump card right there. How many minutes into the podcast are we, Bobby, 21 minutes? 20 minutes. It's pretty good for going small with five. I like it, Charks.

Is there any reason to feel confident, though, but okay, see, I mean, I'm not confident in them moving forward as somebody who going into the series was, the health of this team is not right.

I'm not sure what type of personnel changes can really be made. I'm concerned. Is there any reason to feel confident, Danny? They have great fans. You know, they're going home.

Yeah, I mean, I think Ferguson and Grant, if those guys don't play better, this is going to be a course short series. If they get going at home, this could be a long series. So the four teams that we just discussed,

the spurs, the Nuggets, the Blazers, and the Thunder, one of them is going to be in the Western Conference Finals. They're in the side of the bracket where the two winners will match up next round. One of them will be in the Western Conference finals.

Danny, through these two games in each series, is there one team that you feel most confident in they'll be playing games in mid to late May? You know, last week, I was very hesitant in saying the Blazers,

but I guess I'll stick with them now. I think they have the depth and I think they have, you know, the star power to do it. Okay, Danny, I got a question for you. Sure. How much better would Daniel House make all four of these teams? Oh, my God. He's so good. I don't know how to answer that question because I feel like all of the Western Conference

had their shot at obtaining Daniel House. It's amazing. This guy was in a two-way contract and he would be playing 40 minutes for Oklahoma City right now, easily. Like they couldn't kick him off the floor. It really details the importance of pro-personnel scouting and drafting, right? Because you're able to find these cheap players or rookies from all corners of the basketball world. And House is making pennies by NBA standards. Meanwhile, you have Evan Turner making over $17 million, averaging only 14 minutes in this series.

You have Dennis Schrooter making $15 million for the Thunder. And the whole reason they have him is because they had Mello. And the whole reason they had Mello is because they signed Cantor to that. big extension. Oh, it goes further back, because they paid Reggie Jack. They wouldn't want to pay Reggie Jacks. Yeah, you're right.

There's layers to this, Charks. Yeah, and I feel like Daniel House is everything they want Deontay Burton to become. Yeah, it's just like, what are we doing here? Like, House was in Golden State.

Like, that could change the whole, like, course of NBA history. They had him in training camp. They let him go to keep like eight centers. And he could be playing huge minutes for them right now in that Rockets Warrior series. And how much his house can make this off season? Like this is the Daniel House pod now.

Oh, yeah. He's going to make a lot. Dude, get him in Dallas, please. Oh, my goodness. For what it's worth, I like DeAte Burton, Danny. No, me too. Me too. Solid pickup.

And Ann Hammadu, Diallo as well. Oklahoma City has made some nice additions in the back end of their roster. Jeremy Grant as well, acquiring him. Those dudes just aren't ready right now. Yeah, exactly. And one mistake can end up really screwing you. I think that's really the moral of the story, Turner was a mistake.

Reggie Jackson was a mistake. And it led to eventually getting Dennis Schrooter because of the bad salary in the beginning. One mistake can really screw things up for your team. You know what it is? I think Presby thinks he has Chip England on his staff or something. He's like, well, I'll teach these guys to shoot three. He's no problem.

And it never seems to really happen. They just kind of get there. I mean, at least get Alex Sabrina. Whatever happened to that guy? And he would be huge for them in the series. I believe he had a personal problem. A personal thing that just, never, never really was elaborated on.

But yeah, it's insane. OKC has $180 million payroll and they can't have guys who can have open shots. And also, Billy Donovan never trusted to bring us anyway. Like, he never really, you know, gave him over 20 minutes per game. So, I mean, I'm not sure he would be a significant impact player either, despite the fact he has a reputation as a shooter. Oklahoma City just hasn't been able to find shooters for a team around a superstar player in Westbrook.

it would benefit from having shooters. I don't mean when they have, they've been Abrinus types. Like Anthony Morrow was the same guy, the exact same player. It's crazy because, like, Hardin, of all the guys who could survive without shooting,

it's probably hardened because he can shoot from anywhere. And Houston still spreads the floor for him. Like, it's just, I'm also bad for Westbrook. Like, they're putting an ambition to fail right now with all these non-shooters. Charks, Danny mentioned that Portland

is the team that he feels most confident of these four. Which one is yours? Gosh, man. I could see any of these four make, even OKC, I could see them like figuring out at home. Man, I feel like this is so wide open right now. Like that Denver, San Antonio series probably go seven. I mean, for now, though, we'll have to say Portland. They're playing great the first two games.

Let's move on to the other side of the Western Conference backup of the other side of the Western Conference bracket for the NBA watch of the night. Houston and Utah play tonight in game two. It's at 930 Eastern on TNT. In game one, Utah. defended James Harden in a pretty similar way that Milwaukee did earlier this season by shading him to his on the left side trying to force him to go right. Charks, is this something that the Jazz can do moving forward or should they be switching it up? All right. So now we're at 26 minutes. We'll go again. When Rudy Gobert is not in the game, let's just go small. Like, what is Favors doing? It's kind of free anyways. I love to see like Thabo at the five, switch the screen. make hard and work for points. Like to me, I don't see why they're going big

the entire 48 minutes. So you want Utah to begin switching screens in situations where Gobert is not in the game. You want that would be what your move is. I think so because like, right? Theoretically, Gobert is a good enough rim detector that it makes sense to like move your defense to support him on the floor.

But it's not like Derek Fabers are going to stop hard and getting where he wants to go, I don't think. Here's my thing. It's like in game, I didn't watch Game One live. I watched it the following morning. And, you know, I said this to Verneau yesterday on the show. But like, oh, there were so many tweets about how pathetic the defense was against James Harden. And like he did create countless open shots for the Houston Rockets.

He got into got into the paint over 30 times during the game and it looked easy for him. However, I do think there were some good things that Utah was doing while ago Bear was in the game. First of all, they forced him into seven floaters, which is the shot James Hardin does not want to take. He wants to take the step back three. He wants to get to the rim. He only took three free throws in the game. His 29 points came on 26 shots. I think they did a good job forcing him into floaters.

The problem was everything else. It was the off ball defenders not being in the right positions to close out on shooters to clog passing lanes. And I think that's where Utah, with their days off between games one and two, those are the adjustments that need to be made. Not what's happening at the top. Not exactly what's happening with Gobert either.

It's everything else. And then maybe, you know what? Maybe James Hardin still kills you. and maybe it's not going to work because that's what unbelievable offensive players do, but I do think that there is at least some good signs that this could be effective for them moving forward.

Yeah, after game one, Ricky Rubio, I think talked to reporters and said that shading Hardin was kind of going to be an emphasis all series, not just this one game. So I don't think they're going to back off on that strategy,

at least for game two. But the thing is when you do that, you're leaving a lot of things open on the floor. And you're leaving, you know, some of the best corner three shooters in the league open. And Gobert can't defend the paint and, you know, run out on some of these guys. So it's like, you really have to pick your poison even when you're doing that. Even when you're stopping hardened, there are just so many weapons on the, on the rocket side. Yeah, and Milwaukee has Janus. That makes sense I use to play three on four on defense. You have a guy like that running around

the floor. Utah doesn't have that kind of crazy athlete. Yeah. But the, the, Bucks just have better length, better overall defenders. You have Eric Blitzow, who's a better defender than Ricky Rubio at this stage, defending Harden. I wonder if maybe trying Royce O'Neill in that role could work a little bit better over Ricky Rubio. That could be an adjustment, but I think it was fine. It's really just about clogging those passing lanes.

And ultimately, for the Utah Jazz, even if you help improve things on the defensive end of the floor for you, your offense just does not have enough weapons. Yeah, I mean, Quinn kind of ran on. off all the guys who score one-on-one on that roster. And now it's everyone who runs his system really well. But running his system can only get you so far if you only have thought of Mitchell creating shots for people and getting his own shot off the dribble. Charks, you wrote about this on the ringer today, correct?

I haven't read it yet. I was preparing for the podcast. I'm sorry. But I think you did mention the offense, correct? Yeah, yeah. I was talking about how, like, Houston kind of like exposed Utah on both sides of the ball and how it's, I think they're one and nine now in the last three years against Golden State in Houston.

Yeah, I mean, that's basically the gist of the jazz, right? They're good against 28 other teams. They're good against, you know, the majority of the league. It's just the two teams at the top are so well equipped to exploit all of their weaknesses because they're just built around a really old school type of player. Yeah, I think to me, if I'm Utah going to the next year, I've got to be more versatile around Gobert. Like, you got Gobert. He has his strengths and weaknesses, but you don't need another backup five like favors.

You've got to have more versatility on the other spots in your lineup if you're going to have a guy like that. Yeah, and that's what we could see moving forward with Utah. Favor's being a free agent coming up. Maybe we will see those changes for Utah around Gobert and see a different type of roster moving forward, building around him and Donovan Mitchell. If you want to watch every NBA game, subscribe to NBA League Pass on NBA.com or your local cable or satellite provider. Let's take a quick break, guys, and hear from our sponsor, Turro. Turo is a peer-to-peer car-sharing marketplace where you can book any car you want or ever you want it from a community of local host. Turro is available in over 5,500 cities across the United States, Canada, the UK, and Germany, with over 9 million users worldwide.

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Let's go back to the corner of three. Let's move on to the Eastern Conference guys and go through some of these games. Raptors beat the magic last night, not just beat them, dismantled them 1-11 to 82 after losing in game one. Kauai Leonard, it was dominant last night,

scoring 37 points on 22 shots. Kyle Lari did not have a goose egg performance in last night's game after his horrific game one. Danny, it seems like for Orlando, game one might have just been a blip. Yeah, you think?

I mean, like, Kawai out there It honestly looks like like Jordan on the Wizards punking on the the you know B team. Like he was just getting anywhere he wanted

hitting all of the pull-ups that he wanted. Lowry was almost like abnormally aggressive getting to the rim. It was all clicking. Like 41% from their threes. You know, Leonard's one of the best pick and roll ball handlers in the league. And when you can kind of leverage your talent like that, with, you know,

Marcus All setting really great screens. Look, the Raptors have an easy, have an easy way to just sweep the rest of the series. Danny, I'm offended by your response because I thought last night's game, it was one of the all-time great defensive performances

against NBA superstar DJ Augustine. Oh, man. Yeah. Truly unbelievable. Unbelievable performance holding Augustine to nine points on one of six shooting. Only four assists. I thought what Toronto did last stand against him was just,

something to remember for a long time. Nice. I think the guy for Orlando and the one guy I care about is Jonathan Isaac, so he played 40 minutes in their win in game one, 23 minutes in their loss. He's kind of their Jeremy Grant. When he shoots well, they're a decent team. When he doesn't, they're very beatable.

So to me, it's just like the playoff series for them is developing Isaac, getting their young guys more experience. That's the key going forward. Yeah, I think for Orlando, that's really what this is about. It's nice for them to make an appearance. It's nice for the young players to get playoff experience. It's a team in a city that hasn't seen their team, seen their team get to the postseason in over a century.

So I think for Kevin Clark and the rest of the magic fans, it's a win already, especially to get that game one win. And I think for Toronto, it's very encouraging to see what Mark Gassol did last night against Nikola Vucevich. I thought the energy he played with in containing Vucevich bodes well for them moving forward,

regardless of the matchup. in the second round, the Eastern Conference finals, or in the NBA finals, for Gassol to show that he turned the clock back and looked like his old self in his 22 minutes. Danny, that has to be a good thing for Toronto. Absolutely. I mean, let me count this up. So he had nine points. He had five assists that led to one, two, three, four, five.

So that's 10, 19 points. And he also had 11 screen assists. So that's 30 points that he generated for the Raptors. In only 22 minutes, too. To me, the concern for Toronto is, like, they're suddenly not that versatile. Not at all. After they traded DeLon Wright, they've lost OG for at least two rounds. They don't have much perimeter size anymore, really.

They're counting on Norman Powell to play a lot of minutes. Kauai is not to probably play 40, 45 minutes in these later playoff. Can you do that? I don't know. I would hope not. And that's why I'm kind of hoping that the rest of the series, we see a little bit more of Malcolm Miller. Oh, holy cross. Yeah.

Oh, I love Malcolm Miller. I love him. 6-7-2-10, great shooter. He was a career 38% three-point shooter in the G-League. Like, why not? Why not try him out? Why not see what he can do? Because they're going to need that size later on.

I think Patrick McCall is going to come back. Eventually, you worry about him just having not played for weeks, but he gives you that, you know, tall athletic edge in the back court. I don't know. We just kind of have to see. some of these guys because it's not getting any easier. Can we spend another 10 minutes on Malcolm Miller? Well, I actually have Malcolm Miller take for you.

Please. See, like this is what... It's going back to Daniel House, actually. This is why I really like Houston. Because Houston would be like, oh, he doesn't experience, who cares, get him out there. Houston's never afraid to try guys with the physical tools they need for later around in the playoffs. There's a lot of teams, organizations. Oh, he's a young guy.

It doesn't have experience. Let's just Billy Donovan bury him. But Houston would play in big minutes, and they won't need Miller going for us. They should play them in the series. Take Jody Meeks' minutes, man. Like, really? What are we doing here? With Malcolm Miller, you have a guy who's 6'7, a fluid athlete, a good shooter, plays hard, works hard.

He's somebody who I think, whether it's in Toronto or somewhere else at some point in the future, he's going to be in the league for a while as a 3-&D player. And for Toronto, maybe he gets some minutes on the back end of their bench, and maybe towards the end of the series if there's another blowout. But in the future, I do think he's somebody that, could be like a Daniel House getting an opportunity to get heavy minutes on a contending team. He's a good, good player. Maasai doesn't bring guys who can't play. Even like Bruno is playing well in Memphis now.

Like if he comes through Toronto, they probably has some talent. That's a pretty good barometer, I feel like these days. And also, it feels like the organization has rallied around Malcolm Miller. They signed him to that late, you know, multi-year contract at the end of the season, I believe. So, you know, prove that love that love. Give him some minutes. Also, I love how on Brian we are. We're having like a five-minute Malcolm Miller discussion. I'm thankful. Thank you guys. It means the world. I really, really like Malcolm Miller. Good player. Let's move on to the Bucks Piston Series. Milwaukee's up. One-nothing. This series is over. Blake Griffin may not play at all. It's very sad that Detroit's going out this way, Danny. Yeah, I don't have anything to add to that. But you did do a video with Justin Verrier called hashtag the Throneing the Warriors. And your episode, yesterday focused on the Milwaukee Bucks.

Tell us a little bit about that series. I mean, it's really just, you know, we wanted to do something a little fun, a little analytical, kind of riffing off the success of, you know, a show like the Flat Circle that Chris Ryan and Jason Concepcion did with True Detective Season, what, three, four?

I don't watch TV. I was watching Malcolm Miller highlights. There's no time. You don't watch TV, Danny. Have you ever watched TV in your life? Like, what are your favorite all-time TV shows? Oh, man. Yeah, see, this is exactly where we're headed in a Milwaukee Bucks, Detroit Pissons.

This is something the lead hipster takes from Danny, though. I'm curious now, you know? I mean, like, I don't watch much TV now anymore either. I'm watching Game of Thrones on Sundays. Right. I'm not a Game of Thrones guy. Yeah. Not a Game of Thrones guy.

I mean, the Simpsons is my all-time, number one. Okay. How about you, Charks? What's your favorite all-time show? I've got to go with Seinfeld. that's the show I've wanted to binge watch for a long time. It's genius, man. Yeah, every time I see a clip or watch an episode,

I'm laughing constantly and I'm out of breath at the end of the episode. Yeah, let's give this series the Andre Drummond when Donna shoots three's handwave. Like, there's something to say about this one. Good idea. Good idea. Fantastic. And it's sad to say that, but it's the truth. Let's move on to the Pacers and Celtics. Celtics are up 1-0 in the series after being the Pacers 84 to 74 on Sunday.

They play again tonight. I'll be at that game. Danny, Sunday's game did not go well for the Pacers on the offensive under the floor. As it hasn't for the past couple weeks without Victorola Depot. How can you get Boyan Bogdanovich going? Because that's really their only option right now. I mean,

start the pick and roll at half court and see if he can launch, you know, 28 footers for the rest of the game. I don't know. You want Bogdanovich to be Damian Lillard and Stefan Kari then. They need him to be, you know? Like I don't know where else they're generating like high level, high efficiency shots. Yeah, I think with Bogdanovich and the rest of that roster,

look, they're going to have to have their defense have another great performance like it did on Sunday holding Boston 84. And they're just going to shoot the ball better from three with the shots that they are able to generate, despite their lack of shock creators. It's hard to feel confident for Indiana. The fact they're even here is a, you know, it's a win for the franchise. It's a win for Nate McMillan, his head coach to get that team playing well for quite a while after Lodipo's injury. But I have a hard time expecting much more from this team against the Celtics. I just have more depth, better star power as well.

Kevin, am I wrong to feel some Boston optimism? Like, this team is kind of coming together. I think that second round series with the bucks is going to be a war. So Al Horford in game one, he was plus 31 in his 32 minutes. The man's a playoff machine. Yeah, Horford all season long, I think we might have talked about this last Friday too, but all season long, he has not been quite himself. He looked like himself on Sunday, didn't he?

Oh, my God. And so in his 16 minutes off, they were minus 29. That's like a 70 net rating swing. Goodness. Yeah, Horford is one of those guys. the way he spaces the floor with the five for the Celtics, his switchability on defense and his room protection. He may not be the best player on the team,

but he's arguably the most important player on the team because of his two-way contributions, even over Kyrie Irving. He's going to give Milwaukee a lot of trouble, man. That's going to be a heck of a series. Yeah, he has no weaknesses at the five position, and that's basically all you can ask for out of a playoff performer. Yeah, my favorite Horford stat,

So in the last four years, his teams are 7 and O in the Eastern Conference against anyone but the Cavs, 0 and 4 against the Cavs. He's a killer, man. It's going to be interesting to see what Horford does because he has a player option for $30.1 million next season that he can decline if he wants to. I do wonder if he will opt out of that and try to get a longer term deal because whether it's Boston or somebody else, you would think despite the fact he's 32 years old, he has a game. that can sustain into his mid to late 30s. I wonder maybe for him it would be beneficial to try to get that payday one year earlier and avoiding like another year of getting older, another year of potential injury

and everything else. With Horford, Boston needs to try to keep him regardless of whatever they do this summer. Obviously they want Anthony Davis. But Horford is a guy, you know, he's part of the culture of this team, is a leader on this team and is critical to their success on both ends of the floor. Wait, Kevin, is he a player option for this next year? It's a player option, yes. So could they even trade him this summer or could he be like, I don't want to do that?

Well, that's the thing. It's like he has the power to, you know, say he's going to opt out. Right. But the thing is, is his opt-in date is January 29th, right? So Boston cannot actually trade for Anthony Davis until July 1st. So Horford would have to make his decision before July 1st, even though odds are Boston or another team would negotiate that deal for Davis before that date anyway. You said, you mean June 29th, right? What did I say?

You said January 29th. I don't know. Yeah, June 29th. My bad. I don't know where my head is at. It is definitely not on contracts right now. Now that I think about it, like, if Forre tells Boston, I don't want to go in New Orleans. If you trade me, I'm not going to, like, that could really mess up their plans, couldn't it?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, Boston has options. They can also try to do like a sign and trade involving Terry Rozier where maybe he gets paid quite a bit more than he might somewhere else to, to, to satisfy us. to satisfy the requirements in a deal for Anthony Davis. But really, like, with David Griffin getting hired as general manager for the Pelicans, let's use this to pivot to the draft. It's going to be fascinating to see what the Pelicans do this summer because, you know, there's always a chance Griffin will try to keep Anthony Davis in New Orleans.

We'll try to talk to him and say, here's the things that we can do as a franchise to turn this into a winner. But ultimately, I think Griffin, as he himself said on NBA TV, like you probably have to appease the player. And I think Boston still is at the top of the power rankings. If you're ranking teams that have a chance to trade for Anthony Davis because of their draft capital, they're one of the five teams in the league that have multiple first round picks on top of all the other assets on their team. Those five teams that do have multiple picks are the Hawks, Cavaliers, Celtics, Nets, and Spurs.

So with having flexibility in the draft guys, one of the ranges that teams commonly trade up into is the late lottery or middle first round. In that area of the draft, is there any player, Danny, that stands out to you as somebody that you would like to seem trade up for, whether it's a specific team or just a general player for any team? Yeah, I think Brandon Clark from Gonzaga makes a lot of sense.

He's an older player. He's going to be 23 by the time he gets in. the gets into the league. A guy who may not have the kind of, you know, all-encompassing superstar potential, but he can be a superstar in his role on a certain, like, team. And, you know, I look at teams like the Grizzlies and the wolves in the actual lottery who might want to get him.

But, like, as a role-playing center who can kind of do a little bit of everything, and it's just a really smart defensive player, really strong athlete, you know, the Celtics, the spurs, the nets, could all use them. This is a Brandon Clark fan pod for sure. The dude is great. Yeah, we all really like Brandon Clark. And, you know, I think in this year's draft class, especially, you know, where there's

so much uncertainty with some of the younger players, I think Clark is somebody who at his age can come in and contribute for you a little bit earlier. And there's value in that, as we've seen from players across, you know, the playoffs. Someone like Landry Shamet, the performance that he had in that stellar game two comeback for the LA Clippers was remarkable to watch. He put on an absolute show for that team on both ends of the floor. We've seen it everywhere across the league with these older prospects, Malcolm Brogden, who were able to come in and help.

And I think Clark sort of fits that criteria as well. Yeah, Clark and Minnesota would be incredible. If you had Clark in Townscare, that could be serious. That could be real. I really like that idea. Is there a player who's maybe a little bit more of a risk that stands out to you, Charks? Yeah, to me, the guy I kind of like is. Kobe White. I could see him having a wide range of outcomes. He really came on this year.

He wasn't seen as a one-undone guy. And now he's going to go in the lottery for sure. He's a six-five point guard, good size, good athletic ability. He could shoot it. To me, this guy could end up being the best point card in this draft. Yeah, we have the ringers 2019 NBA draft guide. It'll be updated on Thursday. And Kobe White's profile will be in that. I'm not super high on White. I have him ranked 16th in the draft right now. Where do you have him, Charks, out of curiosity? I'll probably have them a top five or six. I haven't been to my rankings just quite yet. So what is

your thing with White KOC? Yeah. So, I mean, what he does well is shooting, right? He's a good three-point shooter off the catch. He's got a quick release. And he can create space as a ball handler as well. There's signs of him being a shot creating guard.

My concern ultimately with him, Charks, is that quick release also happens to be pretty low as well. He's had his shot blocked a handful of times against college defenders. I would worry about that for him against NBA defenders as well. And as good as he was shooting off the catch, he wasn't nearly as potent off the dribble. So I just wonder with him, if he's not exactly playmaking, if he's not, if his shooting off the dribble isn't great, I'm not confident what he does for you when he's not

necessarily a plus defender either. There's a lot of potential there, but I don't feel a lot of confidence in him is a top five or six guy by any means. See, I think playmaking can come. I feel like in Roy's system, it was such like a run and gun, just jackshots whenever. I think in a more kind of slow it down. I think he has the basketball. He's made some good passes this year. I think Roy made him more of a score of first player.

This is a, this one might not be a positive. Is he like a bigger Terry Rozier? I don't think he's quite the vertical athlete. And he's probably not, he's definitely not as tenacious on defense. but I like me and KSC were trying to come up with comps for him for the guide I think on the low end I I'd kind of gone with Roddy Bobois

Oh Roddy B B Dallas Legends And then on the top end I had Jamal Murray and then we also had Brandon Knight there as well Murray would be a good outcome for him He's a different type of player than Murray He's a lot quicker but that low release that Murray has as well

I might be overly concerned about the release to be to be fair. But it is something where his shot was blocked a handful of times at the college level. And I do think that needs to change. And anytime you're talking about a guy changing mechanics entering the league, there's no guarantee that it works or that they're even going to ever do it. And that's just something with White that I do worry about. Well, I mean, same thing as Jaws, though. Jaws kind of got a weird release.

And I feel like with White, White is of those, all those point guards, White's probably the one who can switch of like jaw, garland, white, all those kind of lead ball handling types. He's the most switchable guy of all of them. He's about 6'5? Yeah, he's got a good frame too. Yeah.

Yeah, and one thing that I noticed watching him was that he was kind of developing a step back three later on in the season. And that could be a real weapon for him going forward, especially, you know, like when Chark says, when it starts slowing down

and when he has to kind of create more and a half-court system. Yeah, and White is somebody who, if you're having him, if you haven't ranked five or six on your board, whether you're a team or you charx, if he is probably going to be there, you know, at 10, 11, 12. So if he's a high value player that you think is worth swinging on, absolutely. I think at that point of the draft, I would have no, no arguments in trading up for him at all. See, to me, four through 12, it's going to be really fluid. Like, I could say a lot of guys moving up and down over these next few weeks. There's not really, I mean, I think you have like Zion and Jaws pretty safe. and RJL be up there. But after that, it's so up in the air. I can see it really moving around up next two weeks.

Four through 12 and even something like eight through 25 for that matter. This year's draft class, depending on who you talk to, like I have Kevin Porter ranked 22nd. There are other people who might have him in their top 10. That's a boom bus guy for sure, Kevin Porter. No doubt about it. Like, bowl, bowl. I have him ranked 14th. I could see somebody being like, you know what, screw it.

This guy is a great shooter and he's over seven feet tall and he showed defensive potential, despite his injuries, a team might be like, we're taking him sixth because he's the highest upside guy available. But I can also see a team pulling him off their board entirely. That's what makes this year's draft so exciting in the sense that there's going to be surprises on draft night. And I just can't imagine being within an NBA front office where your GM and your assistant GM and your lead scout

all have drastically different opinions on players. There's going to be a lot of great war room debates going on. We should talk about Darius Garland. It feels like he's kind of the real unknown hanging over this draft. So I didn't go about, I've only watched one game. I've got to watch more of his game. He's only played like four or five in college. But that's a guy.

Talk about a range of outcomes. I think, you know, this is actually a good way to wrap up the pod with Garland because what we've sort of talked about from the start with Jamal Marie and Damien Lillard are these shot creating guards that are leading teams to victories in the postseason. And Garland has the potential to be that guy. He's got really good instincts in the pick and roll. He's quick with the ball. He knows how to change speeds already.

He's ambidextrous. He can score with either hand near the rim, and he can shoot as well and shows good passing ability. The only question with him, really, is that he's undersized. And his shooting and his release is also low as a shooter, too. But he has the ingredients to be a really, really good shot-creating guard who can pass or score for you. I think for him, I would feel comfortable as long as he's healthy, drafting him around five or six in this year's draft class. I think one thing we'll have to watch in these playoffs is we haven't seen any quite yet because

a series have just gotten going to going going to go. How much are teams going to pick on these smaller guards? Is that going to be a theme going forward? And that's a question like Garland and got Trey Young too. Is in a playoff series what's going to happen if it gets stuck on pick and rolls against like elite wings? And how much does that even matter versus getting into the playoffs? That's really kind of, I feel like that's like the draft philosophy question I always kind of go back and forth on. If you got a guard, I know some good regular season player, but as playoff limitations, how much that effect where I rank a guy? For sure. And like, that was the conversation last year with Tray Young. I had him rank too low.

I made a mistake on him. I overvalued his deficiencies on the defensive end of the floor in my ranking of him. But like the evaluation was sound as it is today with him. It's like he's a very potent playmaker and he is a very good shooter who can sometimes be great. But defense for him could become severely problematic to his team. in the postseason if he's not able to overcome it on the offensive end of the floor. And that's always a question with these guys that are undersized, as you said, Charles, can their offense reach a level or it outweighs any flaws on the defensive end of the floor? I think one thing that should be noted is we were updating our big boards and our personal rankings

all throughout the playoffs. And so it is good to note that, hey, we were watching a playoff run where matchup hunting was the single most definitive takeaway from the entire playoffs. And so, yeah, it definitely colored our kind of perception of these players and how they would kind of react in the future. And so I think it's going to continue this season. It's going to continue in the coming months. It's going to happen with Garland.

It's going to happen with a lot of these players. Yeah, like I'm talking matchup hunting. Like in all these series, like the Spurs, for example, they could match up hunt Jamal Murray and Moni Morris, the Mar de Rosen. The Thunder could match up punt, C.J. McHawley. with Paul George. Like, that could still happen.

I feel like that's kind of the overall of these series is like as these series goes on, where I'm going to get automatic easy buckets. Guys, that's all we have time for today. Thanks, John. Thanks, Janie. Of course. Yeah, that was fun. Wednesdays.

Yeah, man, Wednesday. We'll be back next Wednesday. Looking forward to that. I like the new date. I like being in the middle of the week. It's cool. Thank you for listening to The Ringer MBA show. Please give us a five star rating on iTunes and share the podcast with your friends.

If you do like it and be sure to check out the ringer.com too. We have tons of stuff up on the site, and the NBA draft guide will be updated on Thursday as well. Special shout out to Bobby Wagner for producing the podcast. And the special shout out to my friend Brian who got married on Saturday. I wish I could have been there, man. Happy for you. Were we giving a shout? That's not a random.

Hey, my buddy got married. I was able to go, even though I got in the Bible. I was sad. But anyway, thanks again for listening. Have a great rest of the week. Okay, shout out my pastor, Zach Daniel, listening to this podcast. What up, Zach? I love it, Charks.

Have a good week, everybody.