The Ringer NBA Show - The Pelicans With Zion Williamson Could Be the Team of the Future, With Zach Kram | The Answer

Episode Date: December 7, 2022

Seerat and Kyle are joined by The Ringer's own Zach Kram to discuss the Pelicans' impressive start to the season. They begin by examining Zion Williamson's devastating athleticism, his history in the league, and how other teams have to adjust to his size and strength. After the break, they dissect the rest of the Pelicans squad, talk about the moves they can make to get to the next level, and speculate on what lies ahead in the future (28:02). Hosts: J. Kyle Mann and Seerat Sohi Guest: Zach Kram Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Conor Nevins and Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bill finally gave the ringers Philly crew a podcast. I'm Ben Solac. And I'm Shiel Capadia. That's right, just a couple of Philly guys with a new space to fire off some Eagles takes to get caught up in the Sixers, Chaos, and more. We'll be coming to you twice a week on Sundays and Thursdays, plus bonus episodes whenever we get breaking news or Philly drama. Plus when Hardin and Embed somehow convince you suckers that this year's going to be different,

our fellow Philly stands at the Ringer will have you covered on the Sixers and all your other favorite teams in town. It's Philly Sports, Shield. What could possibly go wrong? Join the fun and follow the ringers Philly special now on Spotify. Welcome to The Answer this week where I am personally jealous because I listened to the podcast last week with Kyle and Ben Taylor. And I just like Kyle's introductions more. I just like, I mean, everybody likes his voice more.

But just the way he talks about hoops, it's just beautiful. So I'm, you know, I'm feeling a little self-conscious. No, that's not what's going on. You like the intros because I flatter you during the. intro and that's that's what it doesn't happen do you want me to just flatter you you've passed me the ball i can do i can work on or off ball here it's just it's just the way you say hoops really literally the word hoops like my accent is that what you're talking about okay hoops all right beautiful thank you there we go folks yes i got a guess with us though we do a very astute smart young man

is that cram hello folks ready to talk some hoops if those are the operative words today they are nicely done you're fitting it perfectly Yes, and I believe we're here today to talk about the hottest team in the West, right? The New Orleans Pelicans, second place, some big games on the horizon, and are they legit contenders or not? Eight and two in their last 10 games, they are hot, hot, hot, playing really well. The Pelicans, yeah, one of the most interesting teams in the league. And I think the Pelicans at first blush look like a contender. If you look at all their underlying statistics, I mean, they're sixth on offense, third on defense, second and net rating only behind Boston.

and all like the early season flukeish possibilities you look at. Like, are they this hot because they've played an easy early schedule? Not really. Their schedule has been fine. Are they this hot because they've just won a lot of close games? No, they have 11 double digit wins tied for second most in the league. And I think they're a very good team. They are sort of rounding out, even though they're still not fully healthy,

at least getting some of their stars back on the floor. And it's hard to talk about in Orleans without at least starting with Zion, who is back on the court after a season away and is probably the main reason their second place in the West right now. Yeah, Zion's missed six games already this season and Ingram's missed eight games too. So you can't necessarily even say

they've had a fully healthy slate. But yeah, there is no way to talk about how exciting this Pelicans team is without starting with Zion. He's just dominating the paint once again. 108 points per 100 shot attempts for cleaning the glass. 75% of Zion shots come from the rim, where he's shooting 69% nice.

And just dominant in the half court. And this is something that, you know, was really kind of surprising to me when Zion first came out. We always heard about him as a guy who was going to be absolutely crazy in transition. Like, you weren't going to be able to stop him once he gets ahead of steam. But he's also one of these guys that just doesn't need ahead of steam to explode. And it's allowed him to be one of the most dominant half court players in the NBA. despite the fact that he doesn't take really any threes.

And also, like, I think, I feel like over the last, you know, 10 games or so is also just not really been taking a lot of jumpers. Like it feels like the pelicans have built really well around him too where they have a ton of shooting. Not that he even necessarily needs all the spacing in the world. He's just so good at finding gaps. But this is kind of, you know, now that Zion is healthy, I think it's kind of time to have a conversation about what that could mean for the rest of the West. Because we have never seen, and the rest of the league in general, if the Pelicans end up being quite good enough, right? Like, we have never seen a prospect like Zion before, right?

The NBA is not really prepared to guard for, you know, a 280 pound. Six foot six, 280. He's only played 103 total career games so far. I mean, I know we keep circling back and being like, it's kind of like the Jason Tatum's young thing. I mean, he barely has seen, honestly, for how impactful he is, like game action wise, this is still in its infancy, honestly, like seeing what he looks like on a good team.

The Pelicans in general too, right? Like we, they had the great run to the playoffs last year, and then we knew that they'd be getting Zion back. And now we're kind of seeing a skeleton of what this team could be. And they could be really, really dominant. Now, I definitely have some questions, but what they have so far is really interesting

because they've built around him so well. They've found a way to maximize his. on offense and they found a way to kind of mitigate his defensive weaknesses as well. And, you know, I think in the last probably week or so, we've been doing, we've been working towards the top 100 ranking for the NBA. And it's made me think about just what's dominated in the last decade or so. And I think the thing that that sticks out to me is that when you take a really elite player with a unique skill set and you put him in the right situation,

that can have league-wide impacts because then all of a sudden the rest of the NBA starts to think, how do we solve for this guy and this team? And the Pelicans are not there yet, but what I see from them so far suggests that they could be the team of the future. The point about maximizing his skill set also leads me to think about another wrinkle that New Orleans has had this year, which is how much they're using Zion and lineups without Valanchunis also playing alongside him, even though that's kind of the main

core that they start with. Zion has played 45% of his minutes at center this year, right, alongside other front court players like Larry Nance, whereas he was in the single digits in his center percentage earlier in his career. That just opens up so much space for him near the rim and that allows him to just get downhill so easily. I mean, we're not seeing like full point Zion like we saw a couple of seasons ago, but he's still averaging a career high and assists at over for a game. He's a good playmaker, both when he's handling the ball up top and just getting downhill and able to beat double teams spraying it out to shooters.

So I think, like, we'll talk more, I'm sure, about how that Zion at center lineup looks on the other end of the court, whether it can hold up on defense, but on offense at least. I think it's kind of like what we see when the bucks use Janus, right, without Brooke Lopez on the court or when Brooke Lopez is just stretching to the three point line, if you have a player who's that good at both getting to the rim and finishing once they get there, if you just give them that runway, it's really, really hard to stop them no matter what your defensive personnel is. Yeah, and I think the positional blur is something that we've kind of seen with some guys. Like Janus's usage isn't terribly dissimilar from Zion's, honestly,

and the fact that they're getting downhill. I think we could have a conversation. about what point guard even means on a team that's constructed like this because, and I kind of make a point about this when I was talking about the Kings and our, just teasing again, the top 100 thing where I was talking about how they're decentralized, how, I don't know, offenses went through a fad where they were like coming from one place. You know, we were like one decision maker. And if you have a guy like that, by all means, do it. If you have a Luca and then you have your secondary guys.

But like, it's interesting when you have a team that isn't built like that. and you're kind of moving Zion in these positions where he's not pounding the ball and just like, here's Zion comes, do some load up and stop him, which teams could do that. They're kind of using him in a smoke and mirrors way that is like, if you do that, he becomes really difficult to reckon with. Because if Zion, like, you glossed over, I think the fact that he isn't, like, we thought of him in college. I made a point I wrote a profile about Zion where I was just like,

he's a transition terror because he can play any role within a transatlantic. transition sequence. He can be the guy that is taking it off the rim. He can be the guy trailing the play and cleaning it up. He can be the guy that's sucking gravity from the rest of the team. But Seard, I'm curious, like, and this is going to kind of segue to something that you wrote in the past, but like, what do you think it is that makes him, like, so effective in the half court despite not needing, like, just a blazing head of steam? Like, how do you do that if you're 6-6-280? That's fascinating to me. I think some of that is just sheer athleticism, right? He just explodes.

And he's really, really good at getting to the spot that the defense doesn't want him to go to. Which is, which like we're on the court are you thinking specifically. I mean, like the rim, obviously, but like, you know. Right, but getting to, well, A, getting to the middle of the floor. And that plays into his playmaking as well, right? Like, anytime a guy that you need to send multiple defenders to gets into the middle of the floor. As a defense, you are just incredibly compromised. And the other thing is that Zion makes really quick decisions.

He doesn't hold the ball for very long. He's not an over-dribble. Or if you get the ball to him, he is usually going right away. And when you combine that with how fast he goes, it's just like he is a blur. He's going from like the paint to the rim, and you don't even know how he got there. And he just has, he has a lot of little tricks under his belt, too.

And like in this article I wrote, it was a couple years ago. It was when I was still at Yahoo. I talked to him about how football kind of impacted his. his ability to just basically like pummel his way through the rim. And he also just really had a lot of attention to detail as well. But one of the things that he mentioned is that, you know, he just, he takes really low angles against bigger big men. Like if you're a mobile big man, like I think the example I used was Robert Williams is that

he's then just going to try to explode under you as opposed to trying to like cross you up, which he can do against, you know, the other guys in the league. And, you know, somebody like Robert Williams, he's not necessarily going to, you know, pummel him either. And that's another thing that he can do too. And he actually, you know, he doesn't get called for a lot of charges either because he almost like, he's so big that he can kind of, again, like a football player, like just kind of hide the ball, cradle it, keeps him like, you know, the amount of drives he has.

He's also really low turnover as well. Just also, I imagine that has to do with his strength. I mean, just try stripping the ball out of his hands. Like I was watching the Raptors game. And Fred Van Fleet tried to strip the ball out of. of his hands. And Fred Matt Vee is strong. He's a stocky guy and he is one of the best. He's like because he's, he's got like Iguodala levels of, you know, being able to read where, where the ball is going to be and getting a clean strip. And it's just not possible against a guy like Zion.

You just like, you just shouldn't even bother trying to do that, right? I'm reminded of that Yonis picture from a couple years ago where Yonis was trying to rip the ball and Zion just took it from him. And Yonis had this look on his face like, I need to pull that screenshot up. Yonis was just like, what the fuck is this? Like he couldn't believe how strong he was but he routinely does that kind of stuff around the room where people try to get the ball from him it's just you're right it's just like it's just not going to happen

yeah and the league still hasn't necessarily caught up to it right like I imagine for a little while like that maybe there would be a sort of like sophomore slum sort of thing if we look at like he's 103 games and this this is technically sort of his sophomore year but it's one thing

to know that somebody is doing something and it's another to to actually stop it. There are very few answers in the NBA for what this guy does. And, you know, like there's the Raptors game where he's, you know, he's dominating the Raptors on a night that they're not exactly defensively engaged. But this is Oji Anoubi, who is probably the frontrunner for defensive player of the year and is a super big stocky guy who, you know, has the same sort of size and strength as

Zion and has mobility and has experience. and then you have like this backline that should hypothetically be able to to help. But, you know, he is just going through three or four of them at one time and there's nothing you can do. And then, you know, he has this game against Denver where Aaron Gordon, another guy that you would think is like prototypically designed to guard Zion. Terrific athlete. Great athlete. Incredible athlete. And the Nugget scouting report is don't let this guy go left.

He goes to his left 70% of the time. They're trying to force him right. And Zion is also just so smart, right? He finds a way, like, you know, there is one play where he drives to his right and then he gets into the air. And his mid-air adjustments are another huge part of this, but he gets into the air and he reverses with his left. Or he'll, you know, he'll drive right, he'll spin back to his left somehow. Or he'll just like get to his left hook. Or, you know, every once in a while he'll finish with the right hand.

And which is, you know, going forward in his career is something that he's definitely going to have to do. But he's just so, he's so tricky with the ball and he really, really, really, understands angles, and he knows how to, you know, he uses a six-six thing to his advantage. When he needs to make himself small, like into a little bowling ball that needs to get like under all these big defenders and explode on top of them as soon as he's like, he's at the rim, he can do that. But he can also kind of do it the other way by bullying you too. Yeah, I think that craft is an important aspect of his game.

His power and explosiveness obviously jump out first. But he, along with some of his teammates, they're very crafty players, even if none of them like to Kyle's point earlier is the prototypical point guard creator distributor type, they can all create shots for both themselves and others. And I think like projecting ahead to the playoffs, that's a hugely valuable skill set as we saw just last year when they pushed Phoenix in the first round. Like Brandon Ingram, being able to create his own shot late in the shot clock, you need as many of those guys as you can against playoff defenses that might be scouting you

and playing against your pet plays better. And they have multiple players who can score at multiple levels or, you know, in Zion's case, score only at one level, but score at that level the best of anyone in the NBA. I'm really curious to see, especially once both guys are back and healthy together, how the Zion Ingraham two-man game develops, because I think we saw some your turn, my turn, kind of hesitance a couple of years ago. So far this year in limited sample time, it's been awesome. Those no Valenciunist lineups I mentioned with Zion and Ann Ingramon, but no center on the court,

they're scoring 136 points per 100 possessions, which is like the best offense in the NBA by 20 points per 100. So it's almost impossible to stop those two. And they're not even really playing off each other that much yet. So like what's it going to look like when they actually learn to play alongside each other in a way that like, if I'm comparing Zion to Janus again, it took Janus and Chris Middleton a lot of time to really develop that two man chemistry. And I kind of see similarities between Middleton and Ingram in those lineups. if anything, Ingram might have a higher offensive ceiling, which I say is one of the biggest Chris Middleton fans on the planet, but that's how good these young players are. That's a really good point. I spent some time, the comparison to the Middleton, Yannis dynamic,

I think is really a really good point. I hadn't even thought about that one. But like I was watching this morning of actions specifically where like CJ, the triumvirate of like C.J. I was curious to watch what they did on the floor together. And what's interesting for the Pelicans, first a comment about the team and then about Zion specifically. But they're not always directly involved in actions with each other, which I think is fascinating. You know, they'll throw in Herb, they'll throw in, you know, Jonas Valcunis.

And I think that's a way, it's smart because it's the Pelicans way of forcing defenses to guard the entire floor, whereas if you had all three of those guys who were like dynamic kind of shot creators, in different ways, obviously. CJ and Ingram, obviously, dribble pull-up kind of guys and Zion getting to the rim. I just think it's smart because it forces defenses to respect because if you've got Ingram out there, if you've got CJ out there spacing a play, you know, your defenders aren't going to be cheating into the gap the way they would if they were guarding guys who weren't as good as shooters.

But on the thing with like Zion and being guarded by guys who you would think on paper would be able to stop them and like the whole like we know what's coming, we can't do anything with it. I've long had this thought about Zion where it's like he is super athletic, but the fact that he is so strong and quick and decisive, he like negates your strengths. Like guys that are super athletic, they don't get a chance to load up and come and swoop in and block the shot because Zion keeps you on your heels so much.

And you watch like a guy like Aaron Gordon who like with a running start can jump to the moon and, you know, contest just about anything on like a cleanup kind of contest thing. He just looked helpless because he just looked helpless. was constantly just, you know, moving backwards and you can't do, you know, the full extent of what you can do athletically if you're in that position, basically. And what all these players are able to do is give New Orleans one of the best offenses in the league, even though they barely take any three-pointers, which is not something you'd expect from a

group in 2022, but New Orleans ranks 27th in three-point rate and is still probably going to end the season with an offense near the top five. And that's in part because they get to the him so much. It's in part because they have players who are able to make mid-range jumpers, even though I guess C.J. McCollum is having the worst shooting season of his career by far. So if anything, we'll probably expect that to improve. He's been particularly inaccurate since returning from his absence.

So I think if anything, like the sixth ranked offense almost seems like the floor of what you would get from a group of Zion and Ingram and McCollum. And that's just remarkable given how many dynamic offenses are in the league right now. But like, at the same time, I'm not super concerned about their lack of three-point shooting because they're able to score in so many other ways. And we've kind of seen a decoupling of three-point shots and offensive efficiency overall as more and more teams become better at only taking the shots they're good at. And for New Orleans, that's a lot of two-point shots. But the players who are taking threes like Murphy and Alvarado, who went bananas over the weekend, are actually capable of making them. It's not like they're forcing Zion to take three-pointers

and the way that the Bucks tried to make Yonis into a three-point shooter for a bet. Yeah, the other thing, too, is that, you know, when you have guys like CJ and you have guys like Alvarado, you know, running action with Zion, it forces a guard into the action and into trying to help on Zion, which, you know, when you have a shooter as good as CJ,

regardless of his shooting numbers this season, that already kind of puts you in a tough spot. but I think anybody who is, anybody who's under, you know, 240 pounds and 6'5 is just in a tough spot when it comes to bringing any help against Zion. It's like you might as well just not bother.

You might as well almost like stay home and try to bring your help from somewhere else. And maybe that's what we'll see from teams that try to counter Zion and counter the Pelicans. But just their versatility in the types of players that they have, you know, CJ and Alvarado are also incredibly quick. too. And I think that also really, like, you know, when you combine that with Zion's quickness, that also plays into the fact, like, into why they're so hard to, you know, to try to bring help to.

It just makes, it just makes a situation a lot more difficult, right? Where I feel like almost, you know, talking about the Ingram's Zion pick and roll, I think part of the reason that it's been more taking turns in the past has also just been, you can switch those defenders and you will lose something, but then you kind of have to get into a situation where, okay, well, Zion's got to switch, so let's run a post up or let's get Ingram and Iso, and it becomes more of a taking turn situation where it's still advantageous for the Pelicans. Like, you know, the guy who's guarding Zion is probably going to be, you know, poorly matched against Ingram and vice versa.

But that just gets into a different type of offense, whereas with, you know, C.J. and Alvarado, you're kind of, and Grant, like, you're kind of running more just straight. like a traditional like, you know, your grandfather's pick and roll. I don't think my grandfather's pick and roll had Zion on the other end. Your grandpa probably didn't run much pick and roll if the timeline matches up, you know, I'm just saying. Fair enough. Fair enough. Not as much pick and roll back in the day. I assume, yeah. I'm seeing six instances this season where Zion was the handler and Ingram was the screener.

That's a fascinating dynamic, though. But the thing about how good of a screener do we think Ingram even is, though. I mean, he's more physical than you think, but he's, he's so thin. That's, that's an interesting. I don't know. What do you, what do you all think to see? Is that a thing that has like a high ceiling that they should explore more as the season goes on? I think you can get to a couple of different things though with him, right? Like, he can, he can definitely be a guy who maybe, maybe he slips. Maybe he doesn't try to make too much contact, but he uses a screen as a decoy for his own movement and just flares out to the three point line or flares out to the baseline or just, you know, tries to dive to the rim and, you know, Zion's such a good playmaker where, you know, if you don't, if you don't have

Jonas on the floor, um, just opens up a lot of room. You can do things like that. And that's also just where it takes time to hone that chemistry and, and see if it is something to implement more into the offense. And just because they've had so little time together, they miss all the last season, they've barely played together this season. Like, they still have 60 more games to develop that ability. And I think for as much as this team, looks like a solid contender right now. They have a lot of untapped potential too. And that's where I'm really curious to see over the next.

I know, Sierra, you wanted to talk about their December schedule. We're going to learn a lot about this team over the next month. Yeah, for sure. They've got, you know,

so their early games, their schedule is kind of weird where I think they have gotten a little bit lucky with their schedule. Like they've met some good teams when they haven't had their best players. Like they played the Warriors twice without stepping. and Curry. And now they're going to have, they have three games against Phoenix in December. They have two against Utah.

They're playing Milwaukee, which will be the game that I'm probably the most interested to see from the Zion perspective. And then Memphis, who they've already played. And I think we should definitely talk about how Memphis approaches guarding Zion. They probably are the best suited in terms of the versatility of the defensive personnel that they have. And also to just sheer him out. I think you need a lot of guys just purely like. It doesn't even matter, like, what kind of guys they are. So it'll be really interesting because there are a couple things with this team where, like, I do have questions.

And I think, like, their defense, they have managed to build a really analytically friendly defense around Zion. I think that's part of the reason that they've had so much success. It's like they just are really good at keeping you out of the paint. But I'm going to be really curious to see what it looks like against some of the best teams in the league. Yeah, that defense third in the league right now, efficiency, I would expect that to drop below their offensive efficiency, which is six right now. And that's the surprise of the season for me with New Orleans is how good they've been on defense, even though their top three players are much better on offense than the other end.

Like, I live in Chicago. I go to a lot of Bulls games. And I see firsthand the difficulties when your best three players are Levine de Rosenvutchevich, or in New Orleans's case, McCollum, Ingram, and Zion. on like, obviously you need the role players to excel defensively. And we can talk about the Pelicans who fit those roles. But also, I think New Orleans has been getting a little bit lucky. Like with opponent three point percentage, they have induced the lowest three point rate in the league.

Opponents are hitting just 32.5% of their threes. And that's probably going to go up according to like the fancy tracking data at second spectrum. Their opponents should be hitting about 35% of their threes. that's the biggest gap in the league. So I could see New Orleans is off a defense falling, just as opponent's luck starts to even out. And I think the bigger problem is that their opponents are shooting 71% at the rim. That's the second highest mark in the league.

And even with Valanchunis and when Zion play center, like, do they have the rim defense to keep the Jomaran's out from the paint? Because when Memphis played him, what was that, a week or two ago, they gashed him for 130 points. and that's not going to hold up against the best in the West. Yeah, and I think a lot of that depends on sort of the guys beyond the stars that we've talked about, some guys that I think have really interesting upside on the Pelicans. Talking about, I think we're kind of an agreement that they've been really cool,

but we expect some regression. I also kind of feel like I expect some really interesting improvement and kind of figuring out where they are going to be when it comes to like contender status at the end of the year and like the playoff race and how they match up against those teams. Those are all really interesting things I want to parse with you guys. So let's talk after the break about those younger players, about those additional like role players

and things like that and where they stand in the West, how they could get better. Let's talk about all that stuff after the break. Looking to get more out of this NBA season, well, now is the perfect time to download Fandul America's number one sports book because new customers get a no sweat first bet up to $1,000.

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Or visit ccccccccog.org slash chat in Connecticut. 1-800-9 with it in Indiana, 1-800-5-22-4-7-00, or visit KASgabblinghelp.com in Kansas. 1877770 stop in Louisiana, visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, 18778 Hope, NY, or text Hope, N.Y at 467-369 in New York, 1,800, 522-470470 in Wyoming, or visit www.1-800 gambler.net in West Virginia. All right, so the Pelicans have a slew of guys,

some that we saw coming, some that we didn't. I was a big, Dyson Daniels hasn't gotten as much burn this year, but he's kind of coming along. And in stretches that I've seen, he's looked defensively good. He's added the kind of fulcrum playmaking, get off the ball, hit a three when you're open, kind of stuff that I expected. Trey Murphy, for me, is a guy. And we'll talk about some of these other, we'll talk about her, we'll talk about Alvarado because they warranted. Trey Murphy is somebody that has really impressed me lately, honestly, defensively. He's popped.

When he was coming out of Virginia, he was somebody that I saw as like, just a purely spot-up, all-assisted offense. I was just like, he does those things well, but his upside I was a little iffy on because of I just really, frankly, hadn't seen it, maybe just didn't read between the lines correctly. I have been massively impressed with this guy. He's pushing 6'10.

He's in the 90th percentile. This guy, have you noticed how much he stretches the floor? He takes more like 28-footers comfortably. I mean, he's huge. shoots them like really easily. Really spaces the floor. I think he's like a perfect accessory to kind of what they're trying to do with that like, like I said, the triumbrane of their stars.

He's spacing. He's a lob threat. He put on like a dunk show on Sunday against the nuggets that was wild. Have you guys been as impressed as I have? Just starting, I know this is a simple question. What have you seen from Trey Murphy that you like or how do you, where are you feeling? How do you feel about him? Yeah, it was real bad times for Black Cochon try in that, in that Nuggets game.

like real bad times. And that's, I mean, that's kind of the thing with the Nuggets, too, is like, once they get beat and on the perimeter

and you have a player with like the size, the athleticism, and also just like the certainty with which Murphy drove to the room there. Like that's probably what impressed me the most is that he was able to sort of, you know,

make that read of the Nuggets aren't going to be able to bring much help defense. If I just go, if I pull a Zion, if you will, and don't hesitate and just go to the rim, I'm getting it dunk. and he got two in a row that were just like straight up sports center, demoralized the nuggets.

And I think that was like probably the turning point in that game. But I think I think he fits really well with what the pelicans are trying to do because, hey, he does have that shooting. He does face the floor. But with what he can bring defensively with his length, that is just another guy that you can put on the floor next to Zion and make up for his defensive weaknesses. Like if there is anything still in his game that, you know, is going to bring him down and start thinking about like playoffs and scouting, it's going to be when teams start really targeting him. And I don't think it necessarily even is going to be primarily one on one, right? Like, definitely that will be part of it. Like there will be quicker guards who will be able to get around him.

But I think like when you have a team with with Herb Jones and Trey and some of these other guys and you're smart, you can sort of start to, you can make those moves a little bit harder. pack the floor on that end. But the problem to me is Zion on help defense. I imagine just like I get nightmares thinking about what a team like the healthy Golden State Warriors will do to him when then, you know, when they get him on a switch and they don't decide then to like, you know, try to isolate on a switch. They just keep the ball moving. And all of a sudden now he's in a position where he just doesn't know how to help anymore.

Stretching him mentally, basically. He's one of those players like if you stretch him out, past a few seconds, you kind of see this with football players a lot, I've noticed, to the football point. Guys that grew up playing football, too, I'm not trying to make that. I just thought of that in the moment. But stretching him mentally like that, I've noticed, you're right. Like, he's vulnerable, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. There are moments, like, you know, when he would find himself having to switch on to Jamal Murray and then Jamal Murray runs around another screen, who, it's bad times. It's bad times for Zion in those minutes. So I think, like, you know,

adding more lengths will definitely help, help the Pelican. and that, you know, with that. Yeah, besides McCollum, basically everyone who plays for New Orleans, I guess, like, Graham as well, but he is more of a back of the rotation player at this point. But everyone else who gets big minutes has a lot of length. Herb Jones, Murphy, Brandon Ingram is very skinny, but he's long. And I think it's important to maybe distinguish between the Pelicans' perimeter defenders and their interior defenders.

Like, on the perimeter, they are very active. they force a ton of turnovers, which also helps them get out and run and helps them, you know, score more points in transition. They don't foul a lot, which is a nifty combination because a lot of teams that force turnovers also foul a lot, but New Orleans ranks in the top 10 in both turnover rate and opponents free through rate. And I think they have the role players to fill in the gaps on the against opposing guards and wings.

The question is more on the inside because Herb Jones is an amazing defender. I don't see Herb Jones defending the best centers in the league. I don't see Herb Jones guarding Yokic, right? And I think that that's maybe where you look at. Like, is Larry Nance good enough to hold up in Zion at center lineups and account for those weaknesses of Zions that you were talking about? Or is Valentunis going to stay there and not get run off the court in the playoffs? I'm kind of doubtful, given what happened to players like Stephen Adams last postseason.

So I think from a bigger picture perspective, the point about Zion's defense kind of overlaps with the point about their interior defense overall. Can you downsize with this group? And what does that look like if you want to include someone like Murphy, who is very important for spacing on offense and length on defense? But does that just leave you really vulnerable in the paint on the defensive end? Yeah, I think, you know, I mean, the Pelicans, they went small in the playoffs. So I think, like, thinking in that direction is absolutely right. You know, I think, you know, as a playoffs, you get closer to the playoffs and, you know, you get deeper into playoff rounds. Like, let's say the Pelicans made it to the second round in last year's playoffs, right?

And they had to go up against Luca Donchage. I think Luca is playing Jonas off the floor pretty quickly. And I really, I really, by the way, just on a personal note, I really hate saying this. Jonas Valenius is one of my favorite players in the NBA. But man, he's just, he's not going to hold up in a series like that. So then I think you do have to start thinking the direction of like, okay, what other moves can this team make to shore up their front court? And one of the guys that we were talking about before the podcast,

who was almost like almost so obvious because he's been in every trade rumor for, you know, the last three years is Miles Turner. But he kind of fits perfectly with his team. He can, he can protect the rim. he can space the floor. He's a great help defender. He doesn't need the ball on his hands to create. And I think that he would just like,

he would be really well suited to play alongside a guy like Zion. Then maybe you can even start running some four or five stuff on the offensive end too. Probably make him more versatile on both ends of the floor. And he can still, you know, if you kind of give him a little shove, he's still a really good offensive rebounder too. Miles Turner, he fits so perfectly with the power. elegans and I've had this thought for so long. And when I shared with our friend Charks for years, I actually went back and searched in Slack.

We had our first conversation about Miles Turner as a perfect fit in New Orleans in 2019 before Zion had even played a single game because we just saw that vision of how much they would kind of compensate for each other's weaknesses. Turner, not the best post score, but that's okay. You have Zion for it. Zion not the best post defender. That's okay. You have Turner for that.

And Turner would also not cramp Zion spacing on the other. And given that, like, JV is a good shooter when he takes three-pointers, but that's not on high volume. Defenses aren't scared of him out there. Whereas Turner is shooting great this year. And I don't know, maybe Indiana is more inclined to keep him, given that they're still above 500. But if they end up wanting to move Turner, I know everyone wants him to go to the Lakers, but

given how well Anthony Davis is playing at center right now, I think Turner, is a better fit in New Orleans. So, yeah, I think, like, it's tricky because New Orleans is, I think, deep enough and versatile enough. They have a lot of different lineup combinations they can use, like plugging Alvarado and Herb Jones in for a more defensive look, plugging Murphy and to spread the floor better. But that means it's harder to upgrade versus teams that have, like, a terrible player. It's easier to go from terrible to average than average to really good.

So I don't think there are as many great fits as it might seem from the outset, but Turner is definitely number one on my list as well. Yeah, Pertil was another guy that I was thinking about, but I don't know that the Spurs would want to do that. The room protection, obviously, from Turner is a lot better. I had this stat pulled up for something else we were doing, but like in the past three seasons, 47 players defended 2,000 or more pick and rolls as a screener defender,

and Turner was fifth lowest in points per possession. My accent came out there, points. But he also started the season pretty brilliant. You were talking about spacing. I mean, like, there's just, there just aren't many guys. Whenever you start thinking about, like, who would fit this? Well, we need a guy who could protect the rim at a high level and shoot threes. It's just like there's just not a whole lot of those people that are walking the earth.

And he started this season like Torrid from three. He was shooting like 46%. It's come back to Earth a little bit. But he's shooting, you know, just a pathetic 40% from three right now on like almost four attempts. and blocking over two shots per game. I just think like in terms of like, yeah, in terms of like versatility as like a room deterrent, I think he could, I think he'd be a great fit like you said. I agree with you and I agree with Charks.

And but, you were saying you thought that like New Orleans could easily get this done if they just like, you know, lift a finger basically. Well, why not, right? Well, we just described. Why not? This point. Like they have all the picks in the world. You know, you can pretty much swap Jonas and Miles Turner's salary as well.

like this should be kind of done tomorrow in my opinion they have better picks than uh than uh than uh the lakers certainly have when they have a lakers pick this year i don't think they're going to trade that one for miles you don't need to you don't need to trade that pick but that pick can also that pick could also be very useful to solving the problem that we're talking about now you know they're not going to get victor wemagnama with that pick anymore unless like they really like the the lottery balls really fall in their odds but the lakers are playing a little bit better than they're we're earlier in the season. They're getting closer and closer to 500.

They're still not a playoff team. They're getting wine bottle AD. They're getting vintage AD out there. He's pissed off. I've been loving it. Yeah. Just hurting New Orleans once again. Yeah.

I didn't even take about that. Yeah, that's true. That's all folks. Yeah. They have all the bucks picks from the Drew holiday trades still. They sent one of them out in the CJ McCollum deal, so they're not averse to using those picks to grease. deals for, you know, improvements right now. And hey, if we want to continue my, my Zion and

Ingram comparison to Middleton and Janus, well, Miles Turner's your Brooke Lopez and then your three-fifths of the way there. And you can just continue building out bucks, well, should you bring Drew Holiday retrade to Pelicans? Yeah, exactly. But also, it's hard to say bucks west when New Orleans is like vertically in the same time zone as, as Milwaukee. So it's not really west of Milwaukee. But yeah, maybe you can get Drew Holiday back to New Orleans

and then just built it out even further from there. Yeah, and then take the Pelicans back to the Eastern Conference event. Can we get their jazz nickname back? This is a Utah jazz is one of the most just inherently hilarious

things in the world. Yeah, jazz and New Orleans, it just needs to happen again. I'm sorry. I just, I feel that my bones. But I feel like that's a really good, natural transition to what we were going to talk about, which is just like, you talked about

them being three-fifths of the way there. I mean, I feel like they have a lot of like the extra supporting cast stuff. I mean, I think that they're like six through 10 is pretty damn good. Like if you think about, it's really about getting those primary pieces that those things like ripple out from. So it's like it leads us to this question and whether or not they would make a move like that for Miles Turner, I think is driven by how close are they actually? And we talked about the schedule is going to kind of define that. I had it written down. I think they're playing Phoenix three times this month. They have a game at Milwaukee, I think. It's just going to be amazing that you pointed out. And they also play Philly. How close do we actually think they are? Like,

you know, they won, like we said, they've won eight of their last 10. Are they close this year? Or do you think they're a year away? I think they're close right now. I think that net rating, it shows they're a legitimate team. There aren't other than the opponent three point percentage, aren't anything in their profile that screams fluke to me in a way that it does with some other teams that might be well above 500, but have a negative point differential. And I also think that the West doesn't have any teams

that would scare me right now necessarily. Obviously, the West has a lot of good teams, but they don't have any amazing teams. Every team in the West is flawed. and the only team ahead of them in the standings right now was Phoenix. After the playoff series last year, if I'm the Pelicans, I'm not scared at all given that I almost beat Phoenix

despite Zion not playing at all and Chris Paul turning back the clock. And based on the way his season has gone so far, like I'm not expecting Chris Paul to shoot 80% from the field again. So would I expect the Pelicans to advance the finals this year? No, of course not just because there are so many other contenders. But I don't think there are any obstacles. in the way necessarily for them winning a playoff round or two kind of appearing a season earlier than expected like we've seen from

Portland or Memphis or Denver or other teams that made that leap maybe a year or two earlier than they might have expected heading it. I think the next month will be a really good stress test for them because the other thing that I'm really curious to see whether it holds up is just how good of a passing team that they are. They don't have a lot of natural playmaking talent on this team. C.J. McCollum is basically having, you know, the best playmaking season of his career with, you know, at least in terms of just like the decision making within the shots that he does get, right? Zion has improved as a playmaker. He's always been pretty quick off the ball. But other than that, and obviously Alvarado and Ionis is a good play. But they have good playmakers on the team, but they don't have like the natural table setter on their team.

And despite that, they are moving the ball incredibly well. That's one of the things that makes them one of the most fun teams to watch in the NBA. And I'm really curious to see how much that holds up against some of the better defenses in the NBA that can really muck them up. But at the same time, regardless of what happens this month, I don't think that that should necessarily dictate their next moves. I think they need to keep progressing and keep kind of assessing their weaknesses anyways. I think we already know what their weaknesses are. Sure, they'll be more exposed in the next month or they'll find solutions within the roster within the next month.

But at the end of the day, I think like when you get down to brass tax with it, it's like, let's move on from Jonas at some point and bring in, you know, the next guy who is going to be able to shore up the defense even more, right? Like I just think, I think regardless of what happens in the next month, the answer is kind of the same. I'm actually, I'm curious to see how these other teams hold up, right? Like, you know, for the last, you know, I would say like five or six years or so, I'd say like probably since, you know, Kauai Leonard has been, you know, won a championship and, you know, the emergence of Luca Donchich and, you know, and James Hardin, the NBA has sort of realized that

you need a lot of strength in order to have an optimized defense, especially if you want to stop isolation scores. You need your Draymond Greens of the world. And I think Memphis is kind of the team that's done it the best, where they have a whole bunch of burly wings that are switchable, like a lot of big forward types. And they also have this amazing rim protector and rebounder and Stephen Adams. And that's probably why they do such.

They've probably done the best job against Zion that I've seen in the NBA. but not necessarily because they were preparing for Zion in particular. They were just kind of prepared for this sort of turn that the league has been taking towards, you know, like strength being more important. And I think the Suns, these three Suns games are going to be really, really interesting to me, probably more from the Sun's perspective than the Pelicans, actually. Because like the thing that I'm going to be watching for is like, okay, you guys got, like Luca just beat the crap out of you guys last year.

is Is Ish Wainwright going to be enough against Zion? Or are they going to find themselves being just a little too thin for, you know, to handle a player like that? Or even to handle Luka, right? Like, that's just a son's question in general. And then, like, that's kind of the same question that I'll have about the bucks as well, right? Like Zion versus Janus is one of the most interesting matchups in the league just because of, like, the sheer just like opposites that they are that meet each other.

So that's kind of what I'll be wondering. Like the Pelicans almost, as much as we are sort of, they are a skeleton. They are also a skeleton with like a very clear blueprint. I almost like kind of feel like I can see where they're going. I'm just, I'm way more curious about how everybody else is going to respond to it. If they do end up being, you know, if Ingram comes back healthy and they do kind of shape into what we think they will. I'm glad you talked about the Grizzlies so much there because I think these teams are actually in pretty similar situations and not just because. they're second and third in the Western Conference standings right now, but because

they're the two young contenders, the Clippers, the Sons, the Warriors, they don't have the treasure chest of future picks that the Pelicans and Grizzlies do. And I think I'm waiting to see which one of those teams makes a move first. Do they consolidate with all their fun young depth, or do they let the process play out organically? And I'm almost curious to see if it's like a staring contest, which one of us makes a move first to try and be the Western team that next steps up to rule the conference for a few years, because they're both so good and so young, and have that superstar already in place who can lead them, already have the second and third pieces and like Ingram and McCollum versus Desmond Bain and Jaron Jackson.

So I think those two teams are almost mirror images of each other right now. I had before the season the all index rating to see which teams were most all in this year. the Clippers were number one, of course. The Grizzlies were 19th and the Pelicans were 21st. And those were the two contenders who ranked lowest. So that just shows they can compete right now, but they can also just hold off for the future. And to Kyle's question that kicked off this conversation,

it's a matter of where they see themselves. Is it time for that big move or do they wait, see how it develops for a year and hold off for a big move over the summer or next trade deadline? And the Grizzlies have done a really interesting thing too, where I think they've taken advantage of just, how much smarter your average player is coming into the NBA, especially if they've spent a few years in college or developing elsewhere,

where they haven't necessarily even had to sacrifice one for the other yet. You know, like they've drafted a guy like Desmond Ban came and contributed immediately. Brandon Clark contributed immediately. Now they drafted David Roddy who is not necessarily playing great. David, the body Roddy. Give him his proper respect. What's that? Said David the body, Roddy.

Is that his nickname? I just, I've called him that. Okay, well, I'm adding that to his basketball reference. And now every time I see him play, I'm just going to, in my mind, in the back of my mind, I'm just going to be like, body, yadi, yadi, yadi, yadi. Right now he has no nickname on basketball reference. This can be his first. It could.

I've always wanted to wield the power of the nickname because Thicharis was one that I had for Zion, but it was a little ominous, you know. It's like if things didn't go well for Zion, I thought that, You know, he flew too close to the athleticism sun. You know, that was kind of my thinking with Thichorus. But I digress. It's almost too accurate. His only nickname right now in basketball reference is Zanos.

I've never liked Zion Thanos. I've never heard that. I don't think it's very good. I guess when you're such like a mononym as Zion already, you don't really need a nickname. But I'd give you that power, Kyle. I think you're ready for it. I always said another one was, thank you, Zach.

I really appreciate that. Another one was, you know, King Bob Am from the Mario 64. game. You guys familiar with that? I called him King Lobam because he was really stout and he can jump really high. That one's a little more in the weeds. I'll grant you that. I think your point about when you were talking about physically stout defenses like bothering him, I mean, and like teams like transitioning towards that kind of philosophy, the Grizzlies did immediately come to mind. A lot of this just kind of comes down to how confident they are in their internal development because you guys, you have guys on the precipice of stardom like, you know, Desmond Bain's been incredible this year.

Do they think they need to trade for a guy who, you know, let's say they went all in for like a Durant. You were talking about ruling the conference for the next few years. If you get a guy in his like mid-30s, you know, is that the move to jump in? Or is there a star out there that's available that is kind of coming up on their prime? I don't know if I can think of one off the top of my head. I kind of feel like both teams are probably going to stand pat just because they do kind of have that developmental upside internally with the guys they've already got. Am I crazy? No, I don't think you are. And I also think, like, if you survey the league right now, I think you're right. Like, there aren't really a lot of guys that are unhappy right now, which is, I don't think anybody would have been.

Like, I'm pretty surprised by that. It's pretty unusual. Didn't see that one coming. But that also, that plays into it, right? Like, if you do want to package everything, like, for what? Unless, you know, you want to keep just dreaming of Bradley Beale, even though he is just, not really indicated at all that he wants out. And I'm not even sure he's a right fit for the pelicans. Who wants to pay him? Who wants that contract? I mean,

right. So there's just, there isn't really that guy out there right now. I think that's why we've seen so much, you know, there's been a lot of concern trolling about shade. It's because like there's not, unless,

unless KD decides that he's not happy with what's happening in Brooklyn right now, there just isn't a lot of that. But Kyle, what I wanted to ask you is could they kind of, could the pelicans kind of go first? further down the path that the Grizzlies have were, and this, again, like, this takes so much confidence in your scouting and your development, but actually try to mitigate some of their weaknesses through the draft.

Like, there isn't, you know, chances of them being able to draft Victor Wenbin Yom are obviously very low, but there are a couple of guys that you mentioned to me before the podcast that could make sense for them that might actually be getable with that Lakers pick. Yeah, it's kind of a, it depends on what you. you want. You mentioned Walker Kessler, who was a guy who was a little older, who was ready to come in, and he's somebody you can park at the rim, sort of a, and he can be an anchor in terms of just roaming close to the rim. I don't know if there's anybody, everybody that I think is interesting in that sense in this draft, and I don't want to rattle off. I don't want to like your eyes glaze over,

draft guy starts riffing kind of thing and bore everyone to tears. I mean, the people that follow the draft. No. My point is I think that the guys that fit the mold probably don't necessarily fit the timeline. If we're thinking, you know, there are guys in this draft that I think have room protection upside, but they're just probably three-ish years away from doing that at a playoff level. I mean, at minimum, like Derek lively is a really talented guy. Duke has two seven-footers that I think could be interesting on this team, but they offer different things. This would be homework to watch, I guess. Kyle Philpowski and Derek lively for Duke are interesting. Collell Ware at Oregon is another guy.

Like we said, I don't think they're going to get the wimby pick. So to answer your question roundabout way, for, you know, if you compared, like importing like a Miles type or in the draft,

I just feel like it's less likely that this particular draft is going to answer that question in the short term for them. This actually brings me to a question that we haven't really addressed here. Maybe we should have what we can do right now is what do we actually think this team needs

in a big picture sense? Do they just need to, shore up their rim protection? Are they set on stars? Is it an Ingram Zion duo with the guys that they have developing? Is that going to get them to the promise land? Or is there a version of this team that might need a third star at some point? I think that's where like the next 30 games come into play to see how that Zion,

Ingram, two-man game develops. Like having more stars is always better than not having more stars. but I also think if you add a third, you do somewhat have to worry about like skill set duplicity where if all of your stars really need the ball, that could be an issue. I think that's where like the CJ fit kind of works right now because he has a lot of experience playing alongside Damien Lillard

and knows how and when to pick his spots. I think it would be tricky to come up with like one individual player who matters there, but if the Ingram Zion game doesn't get any better than it did a couple years ago, then maybe or maybe Ingram becomes a player you trade for that bigger star. Like, again, I just don't know who that would be or how he would fit that timeline because I don't know if you would want to trade Ingram for Kevin Durant just to pick an example of someone who's better than Ingram, who plays the same position. But then there's over a decade gap between him and Williamson.

and assuming that the pelicans want to let their core develop a bit together, as like Kyle suggested, then you let those young guys play it out together, I think. I'm very excited to talk about this team 30 games from now. We'll circle back. Yeah, we should do that. We should do the temperature check. That's kind of what I put it in. Right now, I'm kind of, it turns of them being like ready right now.

I'm like, you do need to have like the guys that are like compartmentalized from the flow of what you do. You know what I mean? Like we saw with, I feel like Toronto a few years ago is like the perfect example of that. They had like an infrastructure in place on both sides of the ball that works super well. But the thing that took them to that next level was they had this guy who could like mercenary go get his own offense. And that just kind of would, it does a number of things. In late game situations, it transcends scheme. It gets you through droughts whenever something's not necessarily working.

We're just kind of like, do they have those guys? Ingram fits that mold, but is he like a star star? that's how you win in the NBA. Is Zion going to stay healthy enough? Is he going to be efficient enough in a playoff setting to do that? It feels like they're just, this is spidey sense basketball stuff. It feels like they're kind of there, but it's not quite like foolproof to the point where there's like, this team has implied offense that you have to stop.

They're not going to stop themselves. And that's like Golden State had that with Steph. You know, the bucks had that with Yonis. You know, you just go on down the line. I think that's kind of what you have to have, really, to be like a championship level team to me. Sounds like you're a little more lukewarm on them than I am. I feel like they're very, very good. It's just maybe Zion becomes that thing.

You know, it's a luxury to even have somebody that could become that. Like, or, you know, I feel like they're really close, but it just needs one tilt a few degrees in the direction of like they have an offensive thing that you have to stop. I don't know. That's kind of what I'm thinking. I think Zion stays healthy. There's a pretty good shot that he becomes that guy. I think, you know, early when he has been healthy this season,

and he has been that guy, just in terms of consistency and unguardability. I think from here it just becomes about, okay, how do you then take that and really tailor a system around that and maximize that and make sure that it's a part of your diet every day? Because I think before we take off, like the one thing that I'll say is that, you know, when you look at Zion's shot attempts, that's the one place where I'd like to see a little bit more. Like, I love him being, you know, one of the most efficient players ever. I think he's had like two games this season where he shot under 50%. And one of them was because he went three for seven in a blowout win against the Warriors.

And they didn't really need him to do anything. I'm just kind of curious to what happens when you try to get him, you know, maybe even force feed him a little bit in the paint area. And maybe part of that is also going to be him diversifying his own skill set as well so he can take more shots. But, you know, going down the line, like, you know, Zion is a guy that is as exciting. as he is and as much as we talked about him today is like we have barely tapped that well. Barely. Yeah. And I think we've seen some of the stuff sort of like bubble up that we, similar to yonnes. We saw like, you know, as teams started to scheme for him. And I think part of the thing that makes Zion so effective, like we said, is that like it's hard to plan for him

when he's come when he's not on the ball full time. You know, when he's, I was, I was compared it to, I don't know if you guys have ever played like first person shooter games, Zach of you. I don't know. But whenever you like respawn in a first person shooter game, you never know where you're going to end up. And you can end up in these really disadvantageous situations. Like you could spawn next to somebody who's really good and you're totally unprepared. That's kind of like what it's like to guard Zion when he's not on the ball. Like if he catches the ball suddenly in the middle of the floor and you, you were looking at something else. And now you're trying to get into position.

If you're late, you're dead basically against Zion. That's kind of my point. So, but we saw like we saw Yonis start to develop some of that little like in the lane. fall away. We've seen some of that with Zion just talking about like where he could expand. Honestly, he showed every once in a while at Duke. He'd show like a little dribble pull-up game in the mid-range that was

interesting. I mean, he got, he has soft touch. I wouldn't rule it out. So there are definitely places he could expand. This feels like this feels like a good place to end things. Zach, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for chatting hoops with me. Kyle, thank you always for

bringing your insight and bringing your voice. Your literal voice. Oh, okay. Not my point. Just my speaking voice, right? Your writing voice is excellent as well, but also just, yeah, just the thing itself. Love it. And thank you, Chris, for producing. We'll see you guys next week. See ya.