The Ringer NBA Show - The Philadelphia 76ers Exit Interview | Weekends With Wos

Episode Date: May 15, 2022

Wos is joined by Derek Bodner from The Athletic to discuss the comments made by Joel Embiid, James Harden, and Doc Rivers after the 76ers were eliminated from the NBA playoffs. They detail each of their histories with the team, speculate on their futures, and talk about the possible offseason moves Daryl Morey can make for Philadelphia going forward. Host: Wosny Lambre Guest: Derek Bodner Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. We're not just reacting to the NBA playoffs on my podcast. We're also doing it on the Ringer NBA show and the Mismatch podcast. They are coming after some of these NBA playoff games. Check it out, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday nights on the Ringer podcast Network. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to another edition of weekends with Waz. I'm Big Waz, aka Wazni Lambray, and I'm joined by a very special guest this afternoon. This guy has been covering the Sixers forever, it seems like to me.

He's the person I go to and I want to be as informed as possible on the Sixers. And so, you know, since we're burying them today, I could think of no better Paul Bearer than my brother, Derek Bodner of the Athletic. What's up, Dee? Not much. And you know what? It does seem like I have been covering them forever as well. I feel that in myself as well.

And that means I've seen a lot with this team. This team gives you something every year to talk about. Every year. Yeah, I can't stop thinking about this team, right? Just so much of the Sixers is theoretical, right? Like, it's like they're presenting these ideas about, well, does it matter if superstars fit? Or does it matter that you build a culture around young guys and tell them and shine their asses and tell them that they're special and then expect them to do difficult things when the time arises.

Like, does it matter? Like, you're always asking these questions about the Sixers. And, you know, I hate using this podcast trope, but we do have a lot to unpack here. But the first thing that I want to get to is the sort of exit interviews that the main players gave after the loss. Where everybody said some, like, interesting shit. Yeah, it did. Yeah, they did. Look, almost everyone to a T came down and said, like, we weren't mentally tough enough. We weren't strong enough. Like, we got outworked. And you just don't hear, you know, Tobias Harris talk openly and honestly about needing to work on their mental toughness in the off season. I don't really know what that means when you're a 28 or 30 year old professional athlete. Like, how much can that really be improved upon? But once you sort of opened up that door and everyone was asked about it, you know, George Nying, the day after during exit interviews, like, look, I don't want to say we quit.

But, and then he pretty much went on to describe the textbook definition of quitting in games five and six. And it's like, how did this? Like, it's one thing for you lose because Miami is a tough team and Joelle and Bede's not 100% and you don't have much depth. And you can yada, yada, yada, a whole bunch of reasons. There's a reason I picked, you know, Miami and six coming into the series. But to lose because you didn't really try hard and everyone's kind of admitting that you didn't give your best effort. It's just, it's maddening. It's frustrating.

I don't know how you're supposed to look at that if you're a Sixers fan and have confidence in this group of personnel going forward because you just don't see professional athletes admit to it as openly and as honestly as they did here in the past week. Yeah, and I do want to parse some of the work because I think Tobias Harris is the most, it's the most outside of the norm from what you generally hear from these guys. But it's the most direct as well. It's just like, you know, we just got out tough. We weren't mentally as focused as we could have. and should have been. And that's why we kind of got our asses handed to us by a team that was clearly superior in that category.

I thought it was strange when Joel basically said James Hardin's washed. And not so many words. That's what he said. He said he's not Houston James Harden anymore. Yeah. He said, look, he's not that guy. And I want to ask you because you've been around it up close and personal. And because you've known Joel.

for so long at this point. What's going on there with the hardened thing? I mean, if we're talking like the relationship between the two. Yes. I don't think Joe came at that from a perspective of malice. I think Joe just has this thing where, especially at the end of the year, he's, you know, two or three times more honest and open than he should be to the media. And certainly we can go back to what he said after Game 7 and the Ben Simmons situation

and the act sort of blowing up. But he's asked a question. as a journalist, I love this. And quite frankly, as a fan, it's great to be able to hear what your players actually think. The problem is that does come with a little bit of consequence to it.

But he is asked a question, and he responds. And he knows, you know, he'll joke about all the time, oh, well, they could trade me. He knows he's not getting traded. He knows that there's nothing, he's going to, if there ever is a rift,

he's not the one going anywhere. But I think he just looks at it and he said, all right, look, this isn't the guy he was three years ago. I do think he still appreciate is passing it and his playmaking and the way they can run pick and roll and get him easy shots that he never could. But I think he also is a smart enough basketball player where he understands like, look, we can't give this guy the ball and ask him to create, you know, with a 40% usage rate efficiently like he could a couple years ago. That's not the guy that he is right now.

And you're right for him to come out and say, you know, we all watch that series. And we could see he's like James Hardin isn't taking PJ Tucker off the dribble. He's just not capable of doing that right now. it's one thing to see that for us all to see it. It's not this thing for Joel Mbigh to come out and be like, hey, he's not what he used to be. And I don't think it came from a position of malice. I don't think there's a real rift between those two. I think Juel understands that James Harden buying in and being the best version of whatever that means right now is his best chance to win.

But Joel just also doesn't care to deny the obvious. He's a pretty unique superstar at this point. So I do want to get into the Joelle of it all because I'm not going to lie. Like, I've always been a pretty big fan of Joel's game and his personality and what he's meant to the league. Just, you know, I just always thought he was a breath of fresh year for the type of guy that he's presented himself to be.

But I got to say, man, basically since the Hawks series of last year and everything that came out of it, I'm kind of starting to turn a corner on Joel. And I got to credit my man Ben Goliver for being a lot of. a bit of a Joel truther. Look, this is the fifth playoff in a row where the six is essentially just flame out. Although I wouldn't say the Jimmy year was a flame out. Like they basically played that fucking team even and they won the championship, right? But like another disappointing season, another press conference with Joelle Mbid is blaming everybody but himself.

And I just feel like most players of his caliber and of his age would be getting absolutely savage right now. Like, you know, Janice won two MVPs and we killed him for it. And then he goes out and he wins the championship, right? I feel like the excuses, like there's no Ben anymore. There's no Brett Brown. There's no, oh, but we're getting better

and we're building towards something. I feel like Joel is a bit out of excuses. And I wonder, like, where the franchise is at with him. Because, you know, we know Sixers fans are, they like to leave it. tough love. Sure.

But his organization, where are they at with Joel right now? No, I think the organization is fine with him. I don't think there's anything. You know, if there's any concern with the relationship, and this isn't me reporting anything, it's just sort of the nature of how superstars. Aggregators, you heard them. Don't win hurt me here. This isn't me reporting anything, but like the one you're always worried about is,

is Joel just at the point where he wants to go somewhere where he can win? Because that's just the history of what our league suggests superstars always have in their power. I don't think there's any real concern about the organization being at which end with Joel or his quote unquote, you know, postgame press conferences or, you know, his injury history. And this is one injury, well, two injuries this year that I really don't fault him for. Like, it's not like these were repetitive use injuries that were chronic and built up over the season. Like he got an elbow in the eye and it blew up. You know, he got a finger caught in a jersey and it at Tor. Like, these were pretty freak injuries. He was in better shape and playing at a higher level

and, you know, with few nicks and bruises as you could expect for somebody to play night in night out like he did in the regular season. I do give him credit for improving his conditioning and his body over the last couple of years. I think he's been a more regular player. The playoff play amounts are, like, I think this is one where it's just freak injuries just completely changed his style of play in his game and his effectiveness. But I think part of the reason why people give him a quote unquote pass. I'm not sure I agree 100%. Like I think there are still, there are some media members in Philly who are, you know, he'll never be healthy, he'll never lead the team. I think that narrative is out there even if it might not be all that strong nationally.

But I think nationally a lot of people look at it and say, well, I mean, shoot, he's had five GMs in seven years. If you count Brett Brown as a GM, if you count, you know, the two years of Elton Brand and like there's been a lot of turmoil. He's had it. you know, his co-star, the one that they chose to keep over Jimmy Butler, which I don't think he necessarily, like I think he was, I'm not going to say he didn't want to play with Ben Simmons, but he certainly wanted to play with Jimmy Butler. Well, a co-star that I chose around him completely flamed out in a pretty epic fashion. I think there's a lot of understanding that this team has had so much instability.

I would love to see, and this is, if I have one hope with the Sixers over the next couple of years, it's to have a little bit of stability around Jewel, so we can really, properly evaluate, can he have a late career surge like Dirk Nowitzky? Like one of those players who he said, well, I don't know if they can ever, you know, we have to hold them accountable. I don't know they can ever win a championship, yada, yada, yada, I'd like to see whether or not he's capable because the growth I have seen, both as a, you know, being in better shape and also the growth in his game over the last couple of years that has made him a MVP runner up two years running hasn't yet translated to the postseason success. I don't think that's all on

him. But I do think that I would just like to see a little stability so we can really properly gauge that. I do think there's been a lot of turmoil around him for sure. All I would say about Joelle is that it feels like in the playoffs, he's rarely ever played to his top level of capability. The only real year was against the Celtics when I got swept because they had Ben Simmons was out. That was the only year where you would say like his postseason numbers match his regular season numbers for sure. And I look around the league, I'm looking I'm looking at Luca. I'm looking at people who are basically of his cohort

and they deliver for their team in the playoffs in basically the same way that they do when they're at their best in the regular season. And, you know, this year, this dude got hit in the face with a fucking ball and he was literally crying on the court. Like that shit was terrible. You know what I mean? Like I can't hold that against him.

Like dude's face. was broken. Like, you know, I understand why his game was slightly diminished by that. Like, I get it. But at a certain point, these receipts got to come do. You know what I'm saying, DB? Yeah. And I mean, look, I look at Joe Ambide's career in sort of two phases.

There was the first two years, you know, where he had that tough second round series against Boston. He wasn't good enough. There was a second year where they had a tough second round series against Toronto. He was incredible defensively, did struggle throughout that series offensively. I really did see. him look at that and say, look, I've got to become a more all-around score, a better face-up player, a better creator, a better passer. And I think he's accomplished that, and we've seen

that in a regular season. And look, he wasn't good enough last year in the late stages of that series against the Hawks either. He had a game where he had seven or eight turnovers, and that was key. This year, it's just really tough for me to pile on too much because that, I mean, he was playing with a mask coming off of a concussion with a broken face and a thumb that couldn't grip the ball. I'm not ready to certainly give up on him, but I, you know, I do agree that eventually this has to turn into more postseason

success. This is just one year where I think it's tough to really hold that too much against them. All right, so, you know, there are people who I could hold shit against on this team, and we can start with James Hardin. And, you know, again, weird statements afterwards

where he says, I ran the offense and didn't get the ball back. Yeah. Bro, you bring the ball up. Right. What the fuck are you talking about? You're the de facto point guard of this team. You basically have free reign to do whatever it is you like to do, and you just didn't. We'll leave his poor performance to the side for now.

They have some pretty big decisions to make on this guy in the offseason, and people straight up asked him at the press conference, what's the deal with his contract, does he want to be a Philadelphia 76er, et cetera, et cetera. Obviously, we know he can opt in if he wants to. for 40-something million bucks. You and I both know he ain't no $40 million player anymore. It feels like they can't do anything but bringing back and basically extend him,

I guess to like whatever the number ends up being. I think he's resigned to the fact that he's like, I don't, I'm not a max, max guy, which is basically what he was implying in the press conference. What do you think they do with Hard? Yeah, you're right. If there's one good thing to come out of the last couple months, is that that max contract has to be off the table. There is no way.

There is no what. And he has a $47 million option for next year. You know, he didn't say whether or not he would opt into that. He said he would be back. He left open the possibility of taking less money. His way of phrasing that was doing what's best for the team. I think that's an acknowledgement that he wasn't going to get that max contract.

Anyway, you know, I think there's part of me that says, look, just let him opt in, let him play. so you can then make that decision on that next contract after watching him next season after he's another year removed from the hamstring injury and see whether or not he can gain just a little bit of that burst back because you're right, that player that we saw play over the last couple of months is not a 40-some-odd million dollar player. Then there's a part of me that says, all right, look, you're looking at this team, you've got Embed and Tobias locked up for the next two years.

You've got two more years of cheap Tyrese-Mexie under team control, and then you have him coming off of a, you know, off of his rookie scale, where he had a have a cap hold that's going to be less than what his next contract is going to start at. Maybe you give Hardin basically a two-year deal this year,

line it up for Tobias coming off of his contract, so you can get two years of, because I think they're probably going to try to look to trade Tobias. It's just, that's a tough contract to move, even though it's only got two years left. But line it up so maybe in two years you could potentially be a player in free agency

if this era of Sixers basketball doesn't work out. But this contract, even if we're talking like two years, three years, 30 million per is going to be terrifying because quite frankly, he's just, he's not a game that's going to age well. He's never taken care of his body the way he needs to. You're starting to see it break down. And it's one thing for James Harden to have all of the bad habits. You know, the lack of offball movement, the lack of attention to detail defensively, especially when he's off ball. the 15 between the leg dribbles to run out the shot clock and take step back three. It's one thing to put up with all of that when he's, you know, a 40% usage guy with a 65% true shooting and an offense completely unto himself.

But when he can't get by Isaiah Stewart off the dribble, well, all of a sudden those details become a little more important. And you just don't have a whole lot of confidence that he is going to age very well. And six are in a tough spot because I do think even the diminished version of James Harden they currently have makes them a better team, even though if it didn't really look like it in the last two games. And they need that because there's no other real way for them to replace that. And Joel NBee needs that skill set to reach his best version. But boy, this contract is going to be scary, even with the acknowledgement that he's not getting nearly what. I think a lot of people expected when the trade was made.

See, I love that you got into the nuts and bolts of it and talked about it in a sober fashion. However, our listeners need to understand that this is. is the NBA and things don't happen because they make sense. This is a people business. There's relationships involved. And I find it very hard to believe that Darrymori didn't communicate to James Hardin that when we trade for you beforehand, that we're going to give you a bag. You can't, though.

Like, you can't. If that's the case and you say, look, James, opt in. get your $47 million, prove to me that you're worth it, and then we can talk about that bag in 12 months. There's no way you can give him that context. Because the way the NBA works, and I know this is going to shock people at home, I'll give you an example.

The Clippers and Paul George, when they did that massive deal after bringing Kaua Lennard in. There was no question whether or not they were going to extend Paul George. That shit was happening. They gave all that stuff away to acquire him. they knew everybody understood there would be a contract waiting for paul george um a season and a half after they traded for him that's just how a lot of this stuff works period uncle dennis negotiations period period period period that it wasn't like oh we're gonna you know

your contract is up now let's get in the room and iron out the details no this stuff was pre-approved before and everybody delivered on what was promised i just find it hard to believe leave, the dude that showed up to the dork gala in Massachusetts with a James Hardin his Jesus shirt on is not going to pay his man. The guy who made him, basically. You know, like, Darrymori got made by James Hardin, period. You know, moving heaven and earth to get him to Houston and delivering all those wins and success in Houston as much as they did.

I got to see it to believe it, that they're not going to overpay this dude crazily because of that relationship. Yeah, I mean, look, Quiet Leonard was 28 in that offseason that you're referencing. Like, this is a very different, and you're right, there certainly had to have been some kind of conversations about keeping James beyond this season. You can't.

You can't. You just, even if you had those conversations, like, you can't give him that contract. You just can't. It would, there's so much. And look, you're already looking at it. This is a team that has so little depth that you were starting Matisse Stibble,

at various points throughout the season. Remember Matisse Tybal? Yeah. Danny Green went down in game six, and you lost like 20% of your viable playoff players. You need a lot of depth on this team. You have Tobias Harris and his contract that's already going to be tough to move off of.

You've got, you know, probably don't want to be hard-capped at the apron, so you're probably looking at the lower mid-level exception. You're probably not looking at the biannual exception. You just don't have very many avenues to acquire talent to round out the rest of the same. roster. And by the way, you don't know that the number two guy, the guy who's supposed to be initiating your offense, is capable of really initiating your offense in that way. So you just, you need more flexibility under all kinds of circumstances.

And you need that not to be the worst contract in the league pretty much from the moment that he signs it. He can't give him that. He just, he can't do it. And I don't, I don't think there's a real threat of James walking because he's not getting 47 and a half million dollars. Where the hell is he? I mean, give me a break. Who's signing up for that? And again, a of it is like he forced his way over there for these creature comforts right like basically your man is in charge uh they brought in other houston people over there you know it's one thing to go to brooklyn you think you're going to win and whatever it's another and you put up with kre and kd running the team and you're just sort of a passenger and that doesn't happen you're like

why don't i go to a culture that i'm used to and be treated and and basically pampered in the way that I've become accustomed to and let the rest figure itself out. And, you know, the Darry part of this situation, I find it be very interesting too because at the time that the deal went down, I remember being like,

everybody's hubris was rewarded. You know what I mean? Like James Hardin, forcing his way to Brooklyn and then be like, ah, I'm done. He gets to go to 76ers a great opportunity

with a really talented roster, all of that. Ben Simmons does his ridiculous act and basically pouts his way out of town. And he gets to go to a contender in Brooklyn with two ball dominant guys so that he actually doesn't have to do shit. He has no responsibilities on the ball in the way that he did with the Sixers. And Darren Moore gets to look like a genius. He did this ridiculous tough guy routine with Ben Simmons and he gets an MVP candidate out of it. Everybody looked like they were coming up aces and that's just not the case anymore we've seen that like kind of everybody has looked kind of stupid for having done all of this so far and I wonder what more he's going to do this

offseason because he's got a coach that I have it on personal authority there are guys on that team who don't fuck with him who don't like Doc Rivers they don't like playing for him they don't like his approach they don't like his style they don't think he's a great exes and old guy he's he's not a great strategy dude. Like there are players on that team who don't fuck with him. Mike Dan Tony is looming. Yeah. Yeah. What's Darrell going to do this all season?

Derek. And they put out that ridiculous statement yesterday, by the way. Oh, we love our coach. You can't wait to work with him going forward. Yeah. Yeah. Which is basically like the death now. Well, in terms of Doc, you know, I think the big looming question is L.A.

And whether or not he wants to pursue that job. You know, obviously, I think the Sixers, I don't expect for a woge bomb tomorrow that Doc is fired. Do I think there's a chance that Doc could be like, look, I want this L.A. position, let me out of my contract. There's way better golf in L.A., Derek. There's way better golfing in L.A. That's a big priority. I don't know about the roster, but there's a lot of really good golfing in weather. And I think Doc did sell his L.A. house, but I'm not 100% sure on that. I'm sure you can figure out a way to buy another way.

I'm sure he can figure it out. he still owed quite a bit of money here with the Sixers. I could see if that's the only real way that I think Doc isn't going to be brought back is if he does say I want that LA job. I don't know if he's going to. I think that roster is a bit of a mess. That's interesting. So you think if Doc doesn't get another job,

he's back with the Sixers next season? I do. And I don't know if that's 100% like Darrell vote of confidence or Josh Harris being like, yo, we owe this guy three years, $24 million. He's our coach next year. I could see it going either way. but I would guess that Doc would get one more season with this roster

if he doesn't want to go somewhere else. So we think Doc's coming back. That's interesting. Interesting. And you guys hear that for her. I heard that here first. If Doc doesn't go to L.A., Derek Bodder thinks he's staying in Philly. I do.

Roster-wise. And again, Doc, I think I've done a great job. He does. He does. You will tell you that. Nobody expected shit out of this team before I got here. Which is hysterical. He was brought in like 100% because they couldn't get past the second round.

That was the entire reason they made a change at coach. Which is just an insane, an insane statement. And by the way, Derek, it's not my fault because the team leads a roster upgrade, Derek. We got to get better guys in here. Obviously, the Toby Harris thing has been looming for years. He's got the best contract in sports in the sense that he's paid like a superstar, yet nobody gives a shit what he ever does on the before. Nobody, he's never held accountable to it. Nothing. We bring up Jimmy Butler only when like Jimmy Butler like comes up, but it's like, yeah, bro, like they paid you like you were

Jimmy Butler and let Jimmy Butler walk. And to be fair, like we don't talk about this enough. They brought in Big Al that summer too. And so like the Big Al thing was part of it as well. And that didn't work out. But whatever, we kind of just blamed Toby for it completely him and Ben Simmons, what are they going to do to get better stuff in the air? This puts me in an awkward spot because I kind of have to, I kind of have to agree with Doc's assessment. Like, they weren't good enough, especially with Joel and Bede hobbled the way he was, which I don't like hearing the coach day because it sounds like him basically saying like,

oh, I couldn't have done anything. But, you know, when you look at Miami's roster, like five through nine, they were a hundred times better than what the Sixers had to work with. Like you're putting out there, Matisse Thibble who can't dribble and shoot, which is, you know, minor details in the game of basketball. Foreguard. Putting out George and Yang, who can't move or rebound. Again, minor details that proved to be helpful in the game that we cover.

You're talking about Jake Milton and Furkan Kork Mazz and Paul Reed, who Paul Reed was maybe their most consistent backup player, and he's Paul Reed. Like, he's a second year player who Doc doesn't trust even a little bit. So they have a lot of work to do with their bench and their depth. You know, I do think that the core four of Embed, Hardin, Maxie, and Harris, if you're forced to sort of come back with that, is a pretty strong top four, assuming Hardin doesn't completely fall off a cliff and Embed's face heels. I think that's a decent enough starting point, but they have so much work to do with the other four or five playoff rotation spots and not a whole lot to work with. Like I said, they have probably that lower mid-level exception and not a whole whole whole. whole lot else. So they have, they're up against it. You know, they're going to have to make a good

minimum or two signings. They're going to have to, you know, over the last couple of years, they haven't really done a whole lot with their mid-level last year. I think they used a portion of it on George Yang, who I don't think can really play in the playoffs. I think he gets run off the floor pretty easily. I think they almost have to try to turn Tobias Harris, not even so much for cap relief, just to turn him into two or three lesser contracts so that then you have a little more flexibility in adding pieces around them and completing trades and just building more depth.

I think they're in a pretty tough spot right now. And some of this is going to come down to, you know, if they could create a little bit of room between themselves and the apron by maybe renegotiating James Hardin's contract and getting that into

where it's a lower cap number than it currently is because I do think it would be helpful if they could use that full mid-level exception. But they've been hesitant to do that because they've been so close to the hard cap if they do use that. They have,

Daromore's got a lot, and look, they've got probably gonna, I think they're probably gonna end up having their draft pick. So they currently have, Brooklyn has a right to their draft pick this year, or they could defer it to their pick next year. So I think they're,

I think Brooklyn's probably going to defer it. So I wonder if maybe you could see the Sixers, select someone on draft night for another team, and then make that trade, try to trade that draft pick for some depth, because that's one of the few chips that they have. But yeah, they need a lot of,

a lot of help. And a lot of help, it would be great. to have one player off the bench. I guess maybe Shake-Bilton is a little bit. But one player off the bench who isn't a complete liability on one end of the court

because they just have none. It's quite frankly astonishing. Well, Derek, man, thank you for coming up here. Never, ever, ever, ever a dull moment on this damn beat. I mean, look, there's been no burner account controversies. There's no, like they haven't...

Find another slant, Bodner. Find a different slant. His collars are normal. Never dull with this beat. Bringer.com broke that, by the way. They did. They did. Oh, man.

Anyway, tell the people where they could find your incredible work, man. I really think you're doing the best job on the Sixers beat. There's so much pomp, palm waving on certain corners of Sixers' Twitter. Like, you are really fair, consistent, and thorough in everything that you do. So I appreciate your work on the Sixers Beat, a team that I continue to be fascinated by. Tell the people where they can find your stuff. Well, easiest way is just go to Twitter at Derek Bodner, NBA. You can get all the links to from there.

I appreciate all those completely undeserved kind words. I will repay you either literally or figuratively some way in the future because, like I said, none of those were deserved, but I appreciate that very much. My man, so humble, so modest. I love it. We'll see you guys next week. Of course, make sure you're checking out all the other offerings on the ringer NBA podcast network, real ones, group chat with myself, Justin Varyer and Rob Mahoney.

The Answer with Sir Rihouhi and Chris Ryan. You know how to find our stuff. We'll see you guys next week. We're out of here.