The Ringer NBA Show - The Pistons Are Badass, LeBron Returns, and Early Eye-Opening Teams | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann are back together, and they’re here to take a look at some of the most surprising teams from around the league. (00:00) Intro (3:23) FanDuel ad break (4:18) Lakers (20:52) Pistons (34:05) Hawks (46:54) Raptors (1:01:03) Suns https://www.theringer.com/2025/11/19/nba/lebron-james-return-injury-los-angeles-lakers-luka-doncic The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, and Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Group chat. I am Justin Varyer and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man. Rob, thanks for showing up. You know, I try. This is what I'm best at is showing up for our podcast to complete them with the two of you. I've never missed the show. Did you enjoy your time away from us? Did you at least go on a nice little beach vacay? It was not a beach vacay. Actually, I left to do a tennis tournament that I play in annually, somewhat successful results. I'm sad to say I did not come back with the championship belt. I feel like you would be a big time force at the net. Is that incorrect? I mean, that is the game, especially for as old and washed as we are.

Like doubles is the way of life at this point. So, you know, the net is my friend. Wait, so you said annually. Did you travel in order to participate in this tournament? I may have. Is that a problem for you? Oh, there's a lot going on here. Where did you go?

It was just back to the bay. This was a local tournament I was playing in when I live there. Now it isn't out of town tournament that I'm going to make a little weekend of. Oh, that's lovely. Did you sign any autographs there? Like, people were just bringing you their blurbous like cells from the show, like the little screenshots. Now you're just being rude, you know? I'm just a guy trying to play some tennis with his friends and it has to become a whole thing for you.

Yes, it does. Did you want to defend Perramore at all before we get going? I tried to talk a little shit about that. I half expected you to come on here with. with a denim, an open denim shirt with a paramour. You know, it has not made its way into my closet as of yet, but I'm certainly not above it. So, you know, maybe we'll get the paramour merch. I don't think they need defending.

Haley Williams, unimpeachable. So I don't know what I would need to defend. Are you guys pro-Paramore? Oh, yeah. What is the anti-stance? I wouldn't say I'm necessarily anti, but like when I was in my emo phase, I wouldn't necessarily say I was in. It felt like it came a little bit after me, but I feel like there's an age group.

where Paramore is like number one on their like concert list or whatever. Yeah, we're a little aged out of that group for sure. But you still, you still wrap. I mean, the Bonafides are real. Am I going to go on like the Paramore crews where they perform? No.

Wow. You know, an active note, a generational band as far as like whatever fourth wave emo or whatever we're in now. I love Paramore. No, nothing bad to say about the band. It's just the least surprising thing ever.

feel like there's a digression between you and I and our taste where there's like that there's that that it's not brooding right it's like it's clever it's in its feelings but it's i don't know because i texted you something about alt jane you were like i love that i was like i fucking cringed at that so i i don't know there's an interesting line here i just don't think you're maybe quite as sad as much of a brooding boy in your music as maybe i am rob's just a more of a chipper guy i guess that's why he's going to play tennis tournaments with his friends just trying to improve quality of life Maybe so. I think I just have a bigger tent.

Kyle, you're closing yourself off to the world. I want to broaden your horizons. That's all. Kyle, you're just more real. You're with the streets. So real, man. I don't like how this turned. I don't like this development at all.

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Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Helph.com. Call 1888-889-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. All right, well, we should get to the matter at hand talking about some teams and wondering whether or not they, and their surprising starts are indeed real. Look at that. We're going to talk about the Sons, believe it or not. We're going to talk about the Raptors. We're going to talk about the white hot Detroit Pistons.

But first we've got to talk about the Los Angeles Lakers because LeBron James checked in for the first time for his 23rd NBA season, the only time that's ever happened in the NBA, which is wild. We can get to the actual performance at hand here. but Rob, it was just so nice when the lineup came up and you see all the names there and the bronze there. Like, I'll be honest, that the heart started twinging. What did they say? Tinkling?

Well, I mean, for you, any movement at all is successful. Like, Jason, we've talked many times. It's just hard to make you feel alive at all. So the fact that this resonated with you, I think is meaningful for all of us. Only when I'm potting with you guys, you know? That's when I come alive. I really appreciate it. But you're right.

Like, LeBron has been one of. the great constance of our entire lives, if we're being honest. So the idea of him being back on an NBA court is a comforting thing. Great to see him back out there. There's a crazy passage of time thing. You have these moments where I saw LeBron play and I think it was his third NBA game. It was my senior year of high school. And yeah, against the Indiana Pacers. And DeSanajap hit a, or Segana Jop hit a hit a game winner at the buzzer. So, So, yeah, that's how long we're talking. No, it's nice to see him out there. He's, you know, he's taking, if we're going to compare regiments, you know, I think he's taking care of himself a little bit better than me. So I kind of look to him as a standard of what's possible. But yeah, no, I mean, let's talk about the basketball though. No, I want to talk about you and LeBron and your relationship. Side by side. He knows how quickly I tried to kick that can. Let's just move on. Let's just go on. Let's throw up the bio blast right here on the video. I think it'd be great for all of us.

Yeah, Kyle, is there anything you've been doing for 23 years? years straight that at the very least you could share on a public recording right now oh god no 23 man I mean other than poorly playing guitar I'm trying to think I was about to say I feel like jamming on various instruments for sure making mistakes been doing that no really stop doing that at any point we fall why don't right it's true self-loathing you know there's a lot of things in contention you guys get anything nothing I care to share on here that's for sure certainly not no but Justin, you're right that LeBron has become one of these players, who especially for people of our generation,

like you really do mark the passage of time by, you know, his breakout in the playoffs against the Pistons or his stumble against the Mavs in the playoffs or like his ultimately winning the titles in Miami and in Cleveland and then in L.A. Like he is one of the signature athletes of all time. He is one of the signature athletes of NBA history

that tells the story of basketball. And having him out there at this stage where he's just going to be a different kind of player, than the guy we're used to because he's in season 23, because he's on a team with Luca Donchich. I know it intellectually, and yet it is also striking to see LeBron operating out of the corners more than he ever has before,

because this is his first game back from an injury, and he is the age that he is. I mean, obviously the defense wasn't great, and we could talk about that in the long-term implications about the Lakers defense, but Kyle, just watching him kind of default into, I can make things happen purely with my mind. It was very much like an older pitcher,

where they might not have their stuff, as they say in baseball terminology, but they could just get outs based on craft and knowing the batter's habits and all this other things. I mean, he had 12 assists, and it didn't seem particularly hard, nor did he seem particularly, like, athletic or was moving all that well. He could just make things happen on a court. And like for a long stretch, especially in that second half, especially in the fourth quarter, he was just doing that. Well, there's, I think with every, with any discipline, any kind of craft,

that you're into, I feel like if you watch somebody who is, I've probably made this comparison before, but there's just an economy of motion whenever you watch, we'll take it back to the guitar thing. If you watch like a really, really great guitar player play, like a jazz player, like man, it doesn't seem like he's moving his hand, hardly at all. And it's just, he knows every angle. We were talking about, Robbie, you were talking about the history of his game and everything. He's probably one of the few guys that could legitimately, you could chronicle his career as an Eros tour about the different levels. And he's reinvented him, found in his ways to stay relevant and stay.

And now that the bursts and the athleticism, it's more finite. He's not flying around, although I will say he like dove for a transition pass to intercept it in the third quarter when they were up 10 on Utah. I was like this guy with a sciatica thing going on. No, I just think he's reached that level of serap, not that I will say, okay, let me say this really quickly. If you want to have your passing pop, it has. helps to have Nurkich guarding the pick and roll.

I'll just say that as a starting point. Certainly. Yes. Kyle texted us at 8 a.m. this morning just to let us know that use of Nurkich is not good at defense anymore, which was important. Anymore. I appreciate it.

All right. Well, I mean, if we're talking centers here, I also thought there was already some symbiosis forming with our guide, Yandre Aiton. And I don't know if we necessarily need to take a victory lap on Aiton being like a serviceful, like actually starter caliber big man. But you could already see not only Luca start to utilize him, but LeBron. I mean, Aiton had 10 field goals in that game, Rob, and four of them came off of LeBron passes. It's just having a big target is going to optimize those guys in ways that's going to be beneficial.

I mean, not shocking at all that one of the most, if not the most brilliant basketball player of all time would find a way and see the anchor. goals. And if anything, like him being out there in whatever capacity, whether he's on ball, whether he's off ball, the luxury of that kind of sophistication and playmaking of having LeBron James as the connector of your team is kind of ridiculous. And I think it also absolves Luca of some of, you know, his worst tendencies as a playmaker. If anything, Luca, for as brilliant as he is, can hold the ball waiting for like the perfect play, the perfect pass, the home run opportunity. What if the easy play is just to swing it to LeBron, who then hits eight and in the middle and then it's a dunk.

It's like it gives Luca easier options. It gives Austin Reeves a lot of pressure relief. And it just opens up so much for guys like Aden, who if you're even remotely in the right spot and you're on the floor with LeBron James, you're going to get the ball. And so all of a sudden, the Laker offense looks that much more rich with opportunity and just like the way they can diversify how they get into their stuff. You're just expanding your decision tree if LeBron is out there. I mean, the first, I think it was one of the first plays of the game.

they had a baseline out of bounds and there was some kind of uphill kind of rub screen or brush screen where Austin Reeves had a path to the basket and LeBron saw it like a second and a half before it was coming and threw and led Reap it fooled Reeves. Reeves didn't even think it was going to be there and LeBron was like yeah that was there. I would oppose this to you guys like I'm trying to think all time if you took like a play. I know there's the Halberstam if you had five Michael Jordans you'd you know the five Michael Jordans would be any combination of five of the same player. Is there any combination of like in the history of basketball? LeBron could play pick and roll with himself. Is there any other, like if you had two LeBron's,

I don't think there's any other player that you could say if he was playing pick. Because he has all of those connective skills and he also has all of those primary skills. So we're just kind of seeing this secondary kind of thing that we don't usually get to see just as a result of him being older, not being the primary zone. Is magic the first one that came to everybody's mind? I think, but even Magic isn't the finisher that LeBron has been necessarily, like has a lot of finesse, clearly a lot of angles to work with. But in his time, LeBron has been largely the best passer. And for a lot of it, the greatest finisher in basketball.

And so that idea to say nothing about as Kyle was alluded to all like the short role instincts that LeBron can have and the way he can spray out to other guys, I think that probably is the definitive option, is LeBron to LeBron. If you can get LeBron to LeBron on your team, I think you should do it. The synergy opportunities always existed. My concern was how much LeBron ever wanted to feed into that role, because even though he is in year 23, did he ever want to take a back seat not only to Luca, but Austin Reeves?

And perhaps the sciatica is just like lubricating that sort of transition for him. It makes it easier if he can't do the other stuff that he could be this ultimate connector. Obviously, the offseason raised a lot of those concerns. And right now they're fine to the point where LeBron is. helping Reeves up and not just like kind of dapping him up and doing like some fun like like finger gun sort of thing. He hugged him and he hugged him like he like he lost Reeves for a year or two like he's a dog or something like that. It's just like I'm so happy to be with you. And so that role has always been the, I think the linchment to making this all work.

But obviously on the defensive side like it was pretty rough to start with. Keante George looked like prime Kyrie Irving out there. And so that's the trade up. The offense is going to be spectacular defense. We'll see. I like the idea of sciatica lubricating anything. I think that's the first time I've ever heard those two words put together. That's sciatica really got things going. I actually did think when we were playing full on, I say we as a larger media apparatus, we're playing body language doctor with LeBron and like how locked in is he on the bench? Is he being supportive of these guys? Spoken like a lot of people have never had back injuries before. If you've ever had a back injury, you were just

You're just in a shitty mood all the time. Like it is just a constant tax on your life. And I will say nothing in my life has ever made me want to do less than having sciatica. So maybe Justin's right about the lubricating. Maybe this is exactly the sort of reality check that a guy in his 40s might need to be a different version of himself. The difference is Rob would still pod with a back injury. He would line up five TV pods in a day, even though he's on painkillers. Rob's actually on one of those inverted things.

He's actually upside down right now hanging on one of those back things. We're flipping the video. Zalgato's upside down. Can I say something else about Aitin that I've kind of noticed? Please. Can I have permission to talk about DeAndre Ate? I think I kind of think that this is feeding into, he's not going to be posting up. They're not going to be playing through him.

I know that he's envisioned. There's a real interesting like Theon Gray Joy Rique thing going on with DeAndre Aiton where he's like, I am Theon Gray Joy. I am the prince. I was the number one pick, Dominating and everything. they're kind of like, no, you're better when you just are in a rigid structure with players. Like, when did he play the best basketball of his life when he went to pick and roll school with Chris Paul? Like, it's, whenever he has this kind of structure and you're like, fall in line, you catch the ball here, you do this. This is your job. He does fun. And I think whenever,

whenever they're doing these actions, I've noticed, like, they were running these like staggered with like Gabe Vincent and Austin Reeves. And Aiton is just kind of standing above the foul line at like 18 feet. And whenever he's sort of the pressure release valve where he can. can shoot those little, I mean, he's maddening when he's playing back to the basket and he shoots those little push shots. But if he's catching the ball with a couple steps and he shoots a little overhanded push shot, you're like, okay, that was a decent. I don't know what the points per possession are for that, but it's not bad considering what our other options are. So just to run out the metaphor a little bit, like playing for the Blazers was Jondra Aiton's basketball castration? Is

that what happened? Oh, no. A lot more than castrate. Well, they cut his penis off. It wasn't just castration, Rob. I guess that. That's true. And we're talking about Rik and Theon Grayjoy specifically, just to make it all very clear. I wrote down in my notes. He talks that talk, but he's really something else. And then I highlighted, this metaphor doesn't work. And I said it anyway. Because it kind of promotes abuse. Yeah. I appreciate his change in hairstyle because it's a nice reminder as much as you want to believe in him, that that still exists there. Like, it's orange right now. And it almost feels like he meant to. make it blonde, but the bleach went wrong and now he's just stuck with that. And it's just like a reminder. It's just like, that's that guy. And it's going to show up from time to time.

But don't lean too far in the other direction because he had these stretches with Portland, which is what I was saying over the off season. Like when he's locked in and he wants to do all the dirty stuff, like he can do it because he's a massive athlete who is unlike few like other players that we've seen before. It's just, it's a given tick.

And so while it's good, appreciate it. Absolutely. And like, again, right now he is a component of what they're doing and a component we should say of this team being in LeBron's absence quite resourceful. Like just really made it work with every permutation of guys in and out of the lineup. Like this is a team that went 10 and 4 without LeBron. They went 3 and 1 without LeBron or Luca that won its own only game without both of those guys and Austin Reeves. I think you just have to tip your hat to that regardless of whether you think the bottom is going to fall on the defense, 11 and 4 given what the late. Lakers have dealt with so far is unquestionably a success. But long term, Kyle, what do you think? Do you think this signals a certain level that they won't slip back from?

Do you think the defense will be more of an issue in the regular season or is that more of a playoff concern? I mean, the defense is, I think, where you could kind of hang your hat because, I mean, they're playing the jazz last night. Obviously, Nirkich is not going to put a lot of it. Their guards are good. The jazz weren't going to stress them in the way that I think some of these other teams will. I think the offense will stay good just because I think when,

when you have entry points like they have, they're elite. I mean, and if you're going to keep LeBron in that spot, he can also pick his spots and attack single coverage. Yeah, they can put points on the board. They went on a 43 to 9 run to end the third

and to start the fourth. They can put some, and there was a really interesting lineup shift too because they did really well with Luca Reeves, LeBron, Rui, and Aiton, but they also had some interesting, like, La Ravia lineups in there.

They have some things that they can kind of experiment. Do we believe that the Aduth Sierra experiment? Is that going to, how's that going to affect the defense? What do you think? What do you think,

Rob? That's not just to annoy, Rob. Oh, God. I have no comment at this time. Come on. What are we talking about? Success.

Do you guys have some like, a do, therio beef going on? No, I just thought it was a hipster lob to just go, no, Rob. That's all was.

That was the lob I let, say a lot of bounds so that everyone credits you with the turnover. That's what's happening here. Yeah, I just feel like they have stabilized the ship to a point where I find it hard to believe that they're going to slip back in the West, especially as the West is increasingly becoming even more top heavy than the East is where it's like the top four feet feel pretty solid right now, Thunder Nuggets, Rockets, and then the Lakers, Spurs dealing with a ton of injuries, wolves are kind of like helter-skelter at this point. And everybody else is just kind of big old mess at this point. Yeah, there's a lot to figure out. And so, yeah, there's a lot of cushion there for the Lakers between them and some of those also ran wannabe contending type teams.

And ultimately, if we want to drill down, like the thing that the Lakers have that those teams don't is Luca Donchich. And so long as he is there playing at this level. And I would say, you know, Luke has been wonderful before, been one of the best players in the league for a long time. I think he's freaking teams out in a way that surpasses even where he's been. Like the preemptive double teams, the sheer panic that he is inviting on the pick and roll. I mean, he's leading the league in scoring and putting up almost 35 a game, something that like in the last 50 years, like a couple of guys have done basically. So so long as he is that, the Lakers are going to be head and shoulders

above some of these other teams in the Western Conference. They're just not going to have that kind of creativity to compete, regardless of what happens with the defense. Getting to the line nearly 13 times a game right now. So at that, with Reeves' own ability to do so and LeBron's own ability to do so, they're going to manufacture points in a way. just going to slow the game down, allow them to control a lot of regular season games on offense. But I think you're right.

I think like this part of the season, we have enough sample to suggest like the teams that have really asserted themselves. There's a lot of noise still. We're trying to figure things out in the east. It's way more crowded and complex. But I think if a team is this successful and looks this impressive, I think that's something to know and something that rarely just like wiltes over the course of an 82 game slog, which is a good segue to talk about the Detroit Pistons who have certainly asserted to themselves.

over a conference that otherwise is just like every other week I feel something different about it and we'll get to that with some of these teams but man Kyle Detroit just they seem legit yeah I mean we were talking about before we came on I mean I kind of feel like they're the story of the league right now I mean 11 wins in a row granted I was kind of looking at I was kind of looking at their schedule and you start to think like 11 my first instinct is obviously who did they play and I'm looking. I'm like, well, you know, they beat. I just, I also think there's just credit. If you have that instinct to look at the schedule, you know, if you take care of business, if you beat teams that you should beat handily and the process is good, I think it's credible.

And for them, I think the process has been pretty good. Like, and granted, I mean, they're going to have more and more opportunities to pick on the, the just loathsome deplorable East. But no, I mean, I think it's, Cade looks like a superstar. What's he averaged in 27 a game? He looks physical. I think some of the interesting, does it start with, I mean, I knew this is who Cade was. Is it Jalen Duren? Is that the hinging thing that's going on here for you guys?

That's the story. Yeah. Yeah. I think Duren has shifted into a space where he's just kind of unstoppable now in a way, where yes, he's not a superstar MVP caliber talent just yet. Maybe he will be, frankly. but he's graduated from the kind of big who is finishing opportunities to the kind who is creating those opportunities.

Like you'll see him catch on the roll and he'll have three defenders in front of him and he will body one out of the way and he will long step between the other two and then dunk. And so it's not just like run away, you know, the Ryan Cockbrenner effect of just like I'm going to dunk every open attempt I get within two feet of the basket that we were talking about.

Like he's manufacturing this stuff. And so to get him flexing all of that sort of unstoppable creativity, while also flexing out his game in new and exciting ways, you know, attacking in transition, taking the occasional jumper. Like, he's always had the sort of like wheel and deal passing game that is so exciting and frankly so important for the Pistons. His emergence and the expansion of his game

is absolutely what has the Pistons playing this well. Well, while also they're playing through lineups with guys that I didn't know existed before, like Danis Jenkins is starting next to Cade in the backcourt. And it's just like, didn't know about that guy. Is this a thing? I think we have like a surprise daily double. Is this a,

Dennis, this is crazy. I mean, last five games, seven point six assists, two steals, 20.2 points. Yes.

I mean, come on. Awesome. And like, look, he's got an opportunity because of Detroit's injuries and just kind of turned into a Jaden IV surrogate,

basically. I think, I think in playing that well specifically, you're seeing, it's, it's like illuminating something about the pistons and what they need. Because the lineups were,

Cade is kind of the heliocentric force with Jalen Duren and whatever combination of like shooters and defenders you want to put out there. Those are good lineups. You put him out there with Danis Jenkins and it just pops. It is totally different. It transforms. And some of that is in. The Jenkins effect is real.

But it's also just like what does Cade need and what do the pistons need to be the best version of themselves? And it turns out they needed a creator like him who, yeah, he's hitting all his threes. But he's also, you know, like really squirrely off the dribble. has that quick burst that they need in the half core. Like he's just enough of all of the sort of the back court creativity to give them some of that boost. Yeah.

All credit to Dennis Jenkins and his five game sample. Like we'll see down the road. But I almost feel like it's a credit more to the foundation of Kade plus Duren at this point. And how good Dern has been than perhaps the guys around him to that point. They're cycling through the starting lineup where Beefstew is now starting because the Sarr can't play offense. It's like it doesn't fucking matter, especially when Duncan Robinson is hitting as much as he does. Duren has been an absolute revelation.

I said it coming into this season like, yeah, he had a good start. He had a good second half last year. Let's see if he could put it all together. He's done that and then some. So over this 11 game stretch, three games were of 30 or more points. Four were 20 plus and he missed two of those games. And so like, he's been dominating in a way that I never expected. And Kyle brought up Caulk Brenner before.

So field goal percentage off the role this season. Top four. Luke Cornett, Janice, Ryan Calkbrenner, and Jalen Duren. And we're talking about the big old yaks of the league, right? Just giant finishers there. And Cornett and Yannis barely do it because Cornett hasn't played much. Janus is just doing all these other stuff. And so he's just kind of become an unstoppable force, Kyle.

And you've seen as a result of that, the defense sort of collapse and all these opportunities for these outside guys. The point where it's just like, I think Dern's going to be a good short roll passer, because he's passing to wide open spaces at this point. Yeah, I mean, with the, with the Dennis Jenkins thing, I mean, I know we can kind of ding it and just be downplay. I'd be like, well, you know, he's feasting on this opportunity. If that were, you know, if it were so easy, they would have already found this person. I mean, they've had Sasser kind of do it here and there when Ivy's healthy.

Ivy was good last year before. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just saying I what Jenkins is doing, I think, is I want to see it continue and extend and everything. Like, I agree with you, Rob, about the squirreliness. He's also pretty squarely on defense. He had a pretty awesome play. He came out of nowhere to deflect an entry pass. But for Duren, you know, up nine points per game from last year.

Also, I didn't really see. Went to Roman Catholic in Philly. You guys remember Eddie Griffin? Remember him back in the day? I was a big Eddie Griffin guy. Oh, yeah, man. Where are we right now? What's CETA.

Come on, baby. Let's talk some, let's talk some random stars. We're naming dudes. This is what we do. This is what we did. Through the time warp here. Yeah, had to do it. Sorry, shout out Cetting Hall 2001.

All right. So, no, I mean, he also, something that I think he has working to his advantage is when you're as fast as Duren is, you know, he is feasting on, this is one of my favorite things that active big guys do,

is if he sees a mismatch in transition, he basically just runs that person down like the weak gazelle on the Savannah. Like he, he ran after, granted, he did it to a Kongwood too. He did it to Jamon Johnson, he did it to Dyson Daniels. He'll just go and post those dudes and he's so

big and strong. Yeah, he just kind of effortlessly. He never looks like he's trying that hard to move people. I mean, the dude's just like a slab of iron. But yeah, he's just attacking and yeah, he looks good. And the whole team's defending well without fouling. That's another thing too. Well, are they? No, they're defending well, but are they doing it without fouling? They're hacking the shit out of people. Yeah, they. Oh, I had it inverted. I was like, that can't be. Okay, yeah, that's not right. I was back to say, they subscribe to the school of like, they can't call them all. And so they just beat the shit out of you all the time in a way that

not only works, but I think feeds the spirit of everything they do. Like you get that sort of body bumping physicality from Duren and from Cade, frankly, and on down the line. I mean, beef stew is just like one of the most physical dudes in the league. And frankly, like, was one of the best bench players in the league. And now it's just like a fun plug-in starter when they need him to be. But like, they will just mess you up and they will wear you down. And I think, Kyle,

I love that you zeroed in on that with Duren specifically because that's kind of what big should be doing in transition. Like guards, yeah, you're trying to get by guys. Bigs, you're trying to go through guys. And if you can do it successfully without picking up too many charges, it does just make you the sort of force that nobody can take away. Having said that, though, it almost has given him the license to fuck around with his face-up game even more. And I have to say, it's like one of my favorite things is watching him because he's such a hulking presence that the ball is basically like a lemon in his hand. And he has the energy of like the star defensive end on your high school team.

who's just fucking around in gym class where it's like it doesn't look particularly tight or impressive but it's just like, oh, whoa. And it's like, it's working and he's hitting this kind of baby jumper. And I'm just like, it's one of the more fascinating things to watch. That sounded anecdotal. Yeah. Did you get abused by a tight end and PE class?

I was probably getting abused by everybody, if we're being honest. I can't tell you how much I would want a, like a GIF of you, full body in a photo studio doing those ghost crossovers, were just hitting us with. Like, I just need that on video, and I'm so sad we won't get it. But honestly, like, him operating in that way opens up so many possibilities. Obviously, their defense makes their floor so high. Cade, I think is even more kind of in command of everything that he's doing right now in a way

that is super impressive. And not just in terms of the point totals, but just his feel, he's in that space where he's kind of playing with his food in a positive way a little bit. If all that stuff is true and continues to be true, this. is a contending team, like, especially in the East. Like, this is a team that could win the Eastern Conference. And some of that is true because the Pistons are on fire right now. Some of it is true because the NICs have a lot to figure out.

Some of it is true because the Cavs have maybe even more to figure out. And so why not the NICs? If that's what the field looks like, and that's kind of their chief competition at this point. I'm sorry, why not the Pistons? Like, they are building credibility by the day as a team that literally everyone has to take seriously. So 11 in a row, Kyle mentioned it. magic, Mavericks, Grizzlies, Jazz, Nets, Sixers, Wizards, Bulls, Sixers, Pacers, Hawks. Four of those games were on the road.

And on the one hand, you could look at the names there and be like, huh, I don't know. Like, was there a real, like, rigorous contest that really stressed them all that hard? Not necessarily. I guess the Hawks without Trey have been pretty good of, like, coming into last night's game. And the other. To be fair, Sixers are a quality opponent now. See, and that's the thing. Like, you want to diminish it.

but this is basically the east at this point. So they're just beating everyone in front of them. And so especially if they're just stacking wins, it's just going to make them, it's going to give them more confidence in what they do. And also it's building a foundation so that they could layer on guys like Ivy and play through his injury, recovery, and whatnot and make it just that much easier.

And so they feel pretty real to me, Kyle. I don't know about you. Yeah, I just, I really think the space for Cade is really, I think you all nailed it that when I was watching them play the Hawks last night. I was like, man, is picking his spots more than he's had the luxury to in the past.

And this is, I think just having Duren create more of that room pressure and just creating more of those advantages that they can kick it, swing it, attack. I think you're basically just giving Kade's game a ricola. And I don't know, you remember those commercials? Of course. Well, he can breathe. You remember those commercials that where the guys like in the sauna with the rushing guys and they're like, breathe, my friend.

That's just kind of what's going on with Kade. And it's a relief. It's a relief to come from the trauma of him staring out into space because they can't give him any help. And people were like, is Cade good? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just kind of he's improving. And this pressure that they're taking off of him is just nice to say. And he's being a bully.

That's the other thing for me. Bullie Cade's my favorite Cabe. He had a phase where he was trying to be slinky and fast and stuff. I'm like, nah, man, be a bully. Love it. I think the trade stuff with them is also pretty fascinating because they're doing this as we mentioned without any of like the critical young guys that they're just kind of betting on. I mean, Rob, what would you do if you're the Pistons right now? Do you look at the success and be like,

we could play around with this because we're switching up the rotation so furiously and guys are in and now. It doesn't really matter. We have the foundation of something. Or are you like, well, we're 13 and 2. Do we really want to rock the boat, especially considering the recent history? It had been so bad so recently. Is it tough to just like take a part or mess with something when it's going so well and people are finally behind you. It always is. And especially because not only do you not want to rock the boat, you don't want to rock the developmental environment

that is making Jalen Duren this player in particular. I mean, I wouldn't say they're doing it without those young guys. Like I Star Thompson is still a critical part of this team. Ron Holland is still coming in and playing vital defensive minutes, revving things up, getting into guys. Like, they're still fulfilling the brief. They're just not the standout stars, those supporting guys, as of yet. I think if you're going to make a lot of,

trade, you have to be very careful, and it would have to be somebody who's actually going to move the needle in a serious way. Like, it would have to be for someone like Lowry Markinen, who also is lighting the league on fire right now. And so if you want to sort of reimagine what you're getting from the four spot, that's a conversation worth having. And especially if you can do that in a way that allows you to maintain this sort of kind of ball handling assistance at the two, whether that's Jenkins or Ivy or a player not on the roster right now, that's a conversation worth having. Everything else I'm kind of low to touch and I'm very resistant because they're coming on this strong. Yeah, they're still not taking a lot of threes. They're still not making a lot

of threes. And that would be my one sticking point, especially in the ease when you have the calves lingering out there. When you have the Knicks, you're going to have to be and attract me to a certain point, especially the way playoff basketball goes where just all of a sudden you're just trying outscore the opponent. And so I do worry about that as a sticking point, but that's a down the road sort of conversation. Yeah. Why don't we flip to the Hawks now, who were similarly kind of cooking without Trey Young, seven and three since he's been out.

They played the Pistons last night. So in this 10 game stretch, Kyle, so 14th on offense, fifth on defense. Oh, haven't seen the hawks up there in defense that long. I kind of feel like whatever you thought about Trey previously, you could read into this 10 game stretch. If you're like, well, he's a sieve on defense. you can't really put together a high-level playoff contender when he's out there because they'll just get picked on. You could believe in that. Or you could look at the offense, which has been better than I expected, more democratic, more flow to what's going on there.

I imagine the passes per game are like off the charts at this point in comparison to what they used to be. On the other end, turnovers are spiking, a little disjointed. Jalen Johnson's been awesome, but it's just like can you really run everything through like all these bigger wings? Which part of that divide do you find yourself on? it kind of reminds me of what the Raptors have been going through where you have some guys who are sort of in this lane of have they graduated to trustworthy primary status and it kind of it's amazing how we know we've listed all these teams that had surprised us and I kind of wanted to go through and say like surprise took each of these teams from where to where but their hawks specifically I'd be interested to answer that question but yeah that's kind of what I see when I'm watching them it's it's which of these guys has I mean Jalen Johnson is that the guy that we came into the league? How are we satisfied with his? Because we were ready to

ascend him, level him up to dude status. Has he gotten there yet? Is he what mode of offense is he most? I throw that to the I throw that to the crowd for you all. I think he is a dude. And really the Hawks during this stretch are kind of experiencing

and coming to terms with everything that it means if Jalen Johnson is your best all-around player. And frankly, he might be even when Trey comes back. Like he's been that good and he's that good on both sides of the ball. That's a conversation worth entertaining. You also have to, like, you also have to understand the reality of what that means

and the limitations that come with Jalen Johnson being your best all-around player. And with this sort of democratic offense, like the flow and the process for the Hawks feel so good, but they run into some real lulls in terms of their creation. Like they just will have those possessions where they pass it around a bunch and don't quite accomplish anything that they need to.

And that's where you miss trade. That's where you miss a playmaker who's that dynamic. And there's no replacing that. There's no faking that. Like you either have that sort of creativity or you don't. Maybe you can win a lot of games if your defense is elite enough. And the offense is just kind of thinking about and going about things the right way. And Jalen Johnson sort of embodies that.

Is he going to get the hawks over the top in the east? I doubt it based on anything we've seen. And that's fine. Like he's an awesome player. But this is the reality that comes with a surprise. Yeah, I'm calling this kind of interlude the look how good Jalen is sort of era for the Hawks. And it's been a nice reminder because just the way he's been able to assimilate and like take on more playmaking responsibility so seamlessly and so quickly has been illuminating to me.

But there have been times where it's just like he's forcing things and it's just like it's not the ideal role. And so I ultimately end up not saying that they don't need Trey, but they need a more muted version of him, the one that's going to buy in. And I think that's encouraging not only because maybe it forces him to play more Hawk style and Snyder style more than them catering to him, which has been the problem in years past. But also, I wonder long term, Kyle, as you're talking about him not getting an extension and whatnot and what you're going to do if he decides that he just wants the money or you want the respect or whatever it is or he wants another opportunity. Like maybe you could hold the line because you can get by with some of the good things Trey does, but not necessarily Trey himself. What would that entail?

I mean, does that entail getting off the, like, we're just asking him to get off the ball faster? Because we've seen that he's not really super bought into moving without the ball. Like we were talking about, when we were talking about the draft and who they could target to optimize this. Is that the question? Because Trey just is one of those guys. Like, I don't know if, I think it would involve him having to do a little bit of both, right? It'd have to be him seeing if his pull-up action is there, seeing if his primaries read is. there and ejecting from that really quickly because I think if he does that, I think that that

could send Atlanta's offense into orbit in a way that I was watching them last night and I'm just like, I thought Detroit made them look a little skinny at times. It just seemed like they were, I thought like Detroit's process overall was just better. And it kind of seemed like Atlanta was like really spinning plates to try to create offense. And if you come in, you don't want to go full tray when he comes back. I think it would just have to be a middle ground. And to me, it seems like that's probably what it would be, like him getting off the ball faster, him moving without the ball a little bit. Detroit has a way because what they do is so streamlined and like efficient to the bone. Like it makes other teams look over complicated. And that's what they were looking like at time there.

I love Trey. I've come to appreciate what he does more. I think the problem also is like his shot has been gone for like over a season at this point. And so if you're moving him off the ball is that create more complications. I think part of the reason why he leaned into past first tray last year was, to his credit, I think it served the team best. But also, like, he kind of had to because when he had the ball, like, I don't think he was threatening as much. And I already think teams were looking at him quizzically because those deep balls that he kind of built his fame around to a certain extent, like hadn't been there by and large in the NBA. And so it's complicated. Ultimately, it's a good problem to have because you could basically say we don't need to live and die by your success.

the one other player who's like kind of been more interesting in this setup is a nekhangu who just feels more suited to this switch everything wings everywhere sort of lineup rob than even kristops who obviously played with a lot of wings in boston but is a little bit more not as fleet of foot okangu just seems unleashed when he's playing in this sort of setup here he definitely does he i mean he's such a hard player to pin down because there are certain matchups that just don't suit him where he doesn't have the size or physicality to hang with certain bigs. And that's where in theory maybe you would want, you know, a healthy rim protector like KP if he was out there or to play them together in some capacity. It's just

hard to know if he's going to ever be like the Bam otobio level version of himself. And that's kind of the gap, right? There's similar sorts of players, similar switchability, similar playmaking, although a little more muted in Anyaka's case. But he's vital toward that ultimate strategy. and that style of play. And I think if you're going to chart a way that bringing back Trey is a successful, you know, like really brings the Hawks to fruition

in terms of the best version of this team that they could be, a lot of it comes from a concoo. A lot of it comes from the activity defensively that a lot of these other guys are bringing on those switches, on their pickups. And it's a congou. It's also having like really active hands

from Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels and Alexander Walker, Keaton Wallace, frankly. Also like Mo Gay picking up and like, wreaking havoc. They have a lot of guys who are mucking things up defensively where you can see the hawks surviving,

you know, Luke Kinnard getting picked on. I think they can survive Tray Young getting picked on. It's just like, can you only have one of those guys on the floor at the same time and can you benefit from the way defense's respect Trey more than his actual three point percentage? Like,

I care that like no defender in their right mind is going to leave Trey Young open for a spot up three. That matters, regardless of whether he's hitting from 30 feet. So ultimately, Kyle, are you coming away from this stretch encouraged by the Hawks? Or do you think about them any, that's a better question. Do you think about them any differently now than you did before when they were kind of a little bit in the muck to start the season? Well, when V. Kredgey is playing this confidently. I tried to tell you all about V.

Creachie. You know, I got laughed off this podcast. Embarrassing. Not for me, but embarrassing. That's the last time we'll do that. I'll tell you that. I still think I'm just kind of in the middle. I'm definitely not as high as I was in the off season.

I think the idea of it was very enticing. Granted, we just need to see more KP. We need to see it all together, I guess. It's similar to you have something that is working sort of, that is a decent proof of concept that needs a little push in in the right direction. And what is KP? What is Trey going to do? what are they going to make this look like when they come back?

That just, I don't feel overly confident about that just because, I don't know, it just feels like we're still a step away, a move away. I don't know if that involves Trey not being there. I don't know. Where's your old's confidence level? I'm wishy-washy. I just feel wishy-washy about them. Can I ask you this question as a setup?

So I think we all kind of agree Detroit, Cleveland, Nicks might be where the power structure lies when it comes down. When we're in like April or something, those might be the, top three teams in the east. The other three, the other four teams kind of into the mix here, Raptors, Sixers, Hawks, Heat. I guess you could throw the bulls in there as well for five. Which of those do you like the most, Rob? It's a great question. I mean, I guess it depends on what you're asking. Because like the Hawks are a team who, they look like a good Eastern Conference team right now, but not a wild card Eastern conference team. Like, do I really think that the

Hawks, given everything we've seen so far, would be a real threat to those top three in the East? I don't. I just don't think that's been there on the court as of yet. Maybe it will be. So do any of those other teams pose that chance? I think that's where to go off the board a little bit, the fully actualized version of the magic might be compelling in that way. And they're sort of like just in the mix right now,

but are showing enough of what they could be that I still take them at least somewhat seriously. And most importantly, I think they defensively have the personnel to challenge some of these top teams in the East. They still have to do it. And they still have to score above like just a, purely putrid level, which has proven to be kind of elusive for them. But maybe they can do that. Maybe they can't.

Otherwise, I just don't see a lot in this sort of middle of the East pack to like that's that inspiring in a like end game sense. It's inspiring now in November. And those teams have all been kind of surprises in their own right. But the top three is the top three for a reason. And once the magic move Palo at the deadline. Okay. And realize, you know, I think they got another level to go up.

They've been looking spunky without him. I'm kidding. Obviously, don't hit me up, are you cool. You're kidding, but you're not kidding. Because this is who you are. No, Rob, you said it over Texas. It was like, you were like, well, here are his stats.

I'm like, yeah, both they are great. They're great stats, but it's just, had a great last five games before he got hurt, you know. We're just skimming over that part as we praise the magic without Palo Bencaro, a very good basketball player. It's just interesting. That's all. They've been fun as hell to watch when Apollo hasn't been there.

like Franz just plays so much freer. Tristan De Silva has been kind of a revelation in the starting lineup. I don't know in terms of like seriousness, but I do like watching them more when he hasn't been there. Oh, for sure. Like everything they do is easier when it's only one of Palo or Franz. The question is, is that version of easy going to get you anywhere? Or can you make something out of the more challenging model?

And like a lot of the contenders that we see are built in some way on a challenging model. There's something about them that kind of shouldn't work but does. Dremont Green can't shoot and yet he is the hub of one of the most potent offenses in NBA history, right? There's always like some crux of something like that at the heart of those teams. The magic have a long way to become the dynasty warriors. Same thing at all. Those two guys balance each other. I love the idea of it.

I mean, come on. My point is not that Stefan Dremont don't balance each other. It's did Dremont and Kavanaughn balance each other? Like there is a contradiction in a lot of these teams that, overwhelming talent kind of puts aside. And that's always been the question with the magic. Is like, are Franz and Paolo together overwhelming enough to conquer that stuff? And we still have yet to see it.

Franz and Paolo, the comp has always been more Brown and Tatum, where it's just you need everything else, the context, in order to really make it work because they do overlap a ton. I should have brought up the magic in that kind of set of teams, bucks also as well, because the bucks are currently in 11th. and there are one and a half games back of third, which is the Toronto Raptors, because that's the Eastern Conference, baby. Why don't we talk about the Raptors?

Because they're one of our teams on our list, and we're already kind of circling them. They've been good, 9 and 5, but again, Rob, I just, I don't know what to make of these teams because on the one hand, like, I think just having two waves of solid-ass guys, which is literally the note that I have down here,

I think that has made the difference in the East and this early. going. It's made a huge difference, but as far as what to make of them, there are only a handful of teams in the NBA right now that are top 10 on both sides of the ball. And one of them is the Toronto Raptors, which is crazy to think about, but comes from that sort of balance. And I think we're seeing all of the virtues of it, right? There is, there's a hierarchy to the way that the Raptors play, but they are not overly reliant on any one guy or anyone action or any one type of shot. And I think sometimes we underestimate the impact that that can have on opponents, right? When

there's no one thing to zero in on in a regular season scouting report as you're whisking from hotel to hotel. How do you get this team under wraps? How do you, how do you really understand what it is they are and what it is they do? And I think the fact that they are kind of elusive and adaptive and always evolving is what makes them a difficult matchup at this point in the season. And so, like, I know there are natural questions that come up with any balanced team as far as like, what is this going to look like in the playoffs? How is this going to like fare down the line? We can get to all that. I just want to say like full stop right. now, this is awesome. No snark, no qualifiers, no exception. Like, if you're playing with this

kind of balance and being this successful, that is an awesome story. Is it just as simple as Ingram? Is this sort of a version of what Houston needed, where Houston needed, it's probably not, it's the same? But I just think, is it just Ingram buying in and playing better? I know we jeered him for the throwing and the frustration and stuff like that. He's not an, I always thought Ingram was a good passer. Like, he's, he's not bad. He's a good passer.

But it's like he doesn't ever graduate to full blown manipulative status where he's, you know, it's like, I'm either scoring or I'm getting off it. You don't see him like, I'm watching to see if guys are moving their foot and like rifling like a no look. He's not that type of passer. But the simple level of him buying in, I think has sort of,

tell me if you agree or disagree with this. I think it's sort of taken Scotty and RJ's sludge of not being, credible primaries themselves. I just think it's kind of set it into a balance that has, that has, it's not always the prettiest, even still. It's not that,

you know, that Hornets game the other night, wasn't gorgeous. But to me, that seems like that's what's going on, right? Even if it's not being brilliant, but he's being good.

And I think that's bringing, or balance to the force for the Raptors. He's being brilliant at the thing he needs to be brilliant at, which is tough shot making specifically from the mid-range, like just canning all of those shots right now. And so, yeah, the playmaking is there. And this is the part of the rapture.

that I have a hard time getting a hold on is like, how does a team that doesn't have like a sole dedicated playmaker that, as you just said, Kyle, like, Brandon Ingram is not the guy who is like passing dudes open necessarily, but he is reading and reacting in an intelligent way. How is a team that doesn't have that one guy this good at taking care of the ball? Because everything is so malleable and everything is so unpredictable. And so far they've been pretty good at keeping their turnovers down,

limiting their mistakes. Like there's just a lot of good players to your point, JV, about how deep they are, like good players playing within themselves has taken the Raptors a long way. And for Brandon Ingram, his version of playing within himself is like,

hit the shots that no one else on this team can hit, that you are uniquely good at. Yeah, I don't know if this is necessarily Ingram, like optimizing what everyone's doing so much as it is, it forces everybody into the better role, which by and large has been doing less. Like, I think Scotty Barnes' success this season, he's been quite good.

It's been awesome. I think the takeaway is, been like, actually, it's okay if you don't do everything. We tried that. It didn't work gangbusters. Maybe down the road. Maybe if you develop that end, we'll get back to it. But right now, you get your little Bosch time when Ingram isn't out on the floor, but you're playing more of a role when he's out there. And it kind of works. RJ's a similar thing. He does something really well. He's just a bull in a china shop, especially in transition. Like, go do that quickly. Just be a connector. Ingram even. Like he's had that amazing run.

with the Pelicans when he was the go-to guy and they just had, or we're getting by on just like spunk and verve and and just like piss and vinegar and all this stuff. But you saw when you tried to add someone as domineering on top of that and Zion, it kind of butted heads, right? But everyone else, there really isn't

that person that's going to insert themselves that needs to play like this way or that way. And so it all kind of works. And so it's one of the few instances, Kyle, where I'm like, you know, you want to pinpoint like the star guy. And I guess that's Ingram because like, like he's doing a lot of the ball handling, the lion's share of it at this point.

But I wouldn't say that. This is a real like collective 60 win hawks thing where it's just like, but all five of those motherfuckers in the All-Star game, because that's what's working for them. Well, you just said it's not an optimizing. And then you just described how he's optimizing. I'm not trying to nitpick you there, J.B. Are you editing on the fly there? Roll reversal, baby.

Yeah, last five games, they're seventh in offensive rating. And Rob, you mentioned it, just taking care of the ball. I mean, just cutting down on the ball. wastefulness goes a long way. It's maybe not gorgeous. They're second overall in turnover percentage. So they're doing well on that. And I think there's just, they have enough athletes who, you know, decisively attacking whatever it is, a close out, a switch, and any kind of advantage. And then you get a little bit of, you know, Emmanuel quickly being a little bit more of who he's supposed to be, you know, get off it, relocate, hit a three. You know, they definitely, their second unit is kind of fun to,

with Mamu and with Grady Dick. And I was just entertained by the way that that was clicking. The combination of shed Murray Boyles, did we settle on a nickname from Murray Boyles? No, fuck it. I give up. I'm going to say it, but you guys can join me if you want.

Well, neither of those is valid at this point. Chonkosaurus. Did you guys see that there's a Choncasaurus Instagram account? That's probably what I got the inspiration from. It's all about like chunky boys, you know? Like, are you a follower?

I think I am. just opened up a mind shaft of, okay. So we got to pay the copyrights if you want to go to that extent. Apparently so. Shout out to the Choncasor's Instagram account, a source of endless fascination for JV. Justin came across just by mistake. But it got lodged in his brain. By the way, it's just nuts how much of like what I consume now is just being fed to me by just

like some asshole online. Like the amount of things that like I've been swayed by by like fart, fart munchers. 69 and just like whatever he's doing like what is happening just just just like he's like cutting glass AI like fruits I get a lot of that lately I want to I need a petition Victorian Isaiah can we next time the just next time Justin's Kiron comes up can we get it to say fart bunch of 69 please that's all I want just to recap just like it's amazing how much stuff fart muncher 69 feeds me on the internet what is happening you got on me for talking about Eddie Griffin What the fuck?

I'm just talking about the algorithm, man. It just takes you to dark and mysterious places, including chancasaurus. You were talking about the algorithm. I was trying to talk about Sandra Mamu Kelishvili. I'm crying. Honestly, just been one of the most, like, a real, an actual consequential pickup for the Toronto Raptors. And with that bench group that Kyle was talking about, there's just like a little of everything in a way that is very appealing and definitely works. But to what we were talking about with the hierarchy.

I mean, I think Scotty Barnes has been their best player. I think Brandon Ingram is kind of in that alpha mode by what he's asked to do. But part of the reason we are here talking about the Raptors as a surprising team is because Scottie Barnes has been a total badass on defense because I think he's been relieved of some of that responsibility of being a primary. Like he's guarding the big wings. He's guarding the Janus type bigs. He's guarding actual centers.

He's guarding lamella ball. Like he's kind of being asked to do everything and he's been so disruptive as far as getting in the passing lanes, denying those opportunities to some of the best players that the Raptors are going against. And they're here because of that stuff. And they're here because they kind of pulled the reins in on how aggressive their defense was earlier this season. Like they needed to settle down because there are ways to be aggressive without selling out everything you're doing. And they've managed to find that balance. Yeah, I think the key for Scottie is be more Pascal, not more Kauai. And I think there were visions

of grandeur when he first started. And I think there were a lot of comps to Kauai just considering his trajectory and just like potential and how he can go from A to B. Don't you think that's good advice for all of us? Like shouldn't we all be more Pascal and less Kauai? I would personally like to get paid for doing nothing.

So, no. Honestly, asked and answer, entirely fair. But yeah, I mean, it calls into question like, you know, you basically changed your entire team in order to just end up with Pascal again, but that's fine. He was great. Everybody loves him.

All right. All right, why don't we flip to our last team, the Phoenix Suns, who I saw in person last night for an 8 p.m. start. This game on national TV started at 8 p.m. Pacific time. Yeah. Who on the East Coast is like, oh, honey, I know it's midnight, but I have to stay up and watch the Blazers without Drew Holiday and Jeremy Grant and Scoo Henderson and practically half their team play the Sons. Sons are pretty ficing this year. Like, put the kids to bed. I'll be up all night. Like, why are we doing this? But do you think moving it to 10 o'clock Eastern would pull in that audience? Do you think the hour is really going to change anything? I think you would check in. Like, I'm up and functioning and like cruising through the TV at 10 if I'm an adult on a weeknight.

But if it's like 11 and then 12, like, give me a fucking break. This is ridiculous. Justin, you are in the favorite time zone here. And you're complaining about a late tip off. and you also complain about our early podcast. It's like, what is the acceptable range of daytime for you? This is a weekly. It's becoming a weekly thing.

I know. Yeah. At 10 a.m. is the perfect time to podcast. 7 p.m. is the perfect time to basketball. Okay. God forbid it's at 8 p.m. I mean, how will we ever recover? I was falling asleep halfway through.

And it didn't help because the game eventually got away from the Blazers. The point where like they basically put you asleep. But also like just last thing on this, like the NBA wants to talk all, like we hear all this course of people complaining about soft tissue injuries as they should because there's a lot of them right now. I can't remember the last time we've seen notable guys just be out for short-term injuries at this point in the season. And it's something we need to be tracking here. Switching up the time isn't going to help you. Like just randomly being like, oh, all of a sudden, we're going to switch up your calendar and how you do things. Everyone's so programmed in order to so they're optimized

at 7 or 7.30. Oh, 8 p.m. It's fine. We don't give a shit. I don't think the calf strains are coming from an 8 p.m. tip. I'm going to be honest. I think the science on that might be a little fussy. The through line there is we pretend to, the NBA pretends to care about the health and wellness of the players, but they don't. They're just catching those sweet, sweet NBC checks. They say one thing and then they have them play at 8 p.m. It's just unbelievable. It's just unbelievable. I told you all, I feel like when I look up at the ticker at the top and or whatever it's called, the car run at the top and it says East Coast time, it says, okay, you know, this game's tipping it. at 1030. I feel like I'm looking, it's like interstellar and I'm looking on the horizon and I see

that wave coming and I'm like, I'm going to drown. I can't do this. It's so daunting. I have a complaint though, if you don't mind. I tweeted about this. I despise the 2K overlay thing that NBC is doing. They got to stop. I love you guys. I'm excited that you're back. but I don't need a constant label on Denny Avdia as he's going. And then it turns red when he catches the ball. Well, no, obviously, I saw that. I don't need that. Like, there were plays last night where the graphics were so big that it was over top of

Denny when he was shooting the ball. Like, it's just, let's just, I don't need it. Do you guys agree with me? Am I just, or at least put the names under them? Like, what's it for? I don't get it. I don't know who it's for. There are some things that just don't need to be.

innovated. Like we honestly like higher definition cameras once we hit H-1080P like we're pretty good as far as broadcasting games goes. Like I don't know that you need to reinvent the wheel here. And yet every every new broadcast team, every new like content provider with the NBA tries to do some version of this thing. You say that, but we're literally being sent new fancy 4K cameras just to be on Netflix. But that's because our product can be optimized, Justin. We can be better, faster, stronger. I mean, I don't know if you looked back at a 2020 NBA broadcast, maybe a bad example considering the setting of those things.

A 2018 NBA broadcast, was it so flawed? Like, was it, was it so unwatchable that we needed a prompt as to who was holding the ball? Watch the game or don't, but the play-by-play guy is going to tell you who has the ball. Let him do his job. Let him do his job. And that's what it is, Kyle. It's AI taking human jobs.

And we don't support that on this podcast. That's right. Yeah, there was a point where Shaden drove to the basket and for, I'm serious, a fraction of a second, a 40% thing popped up. It's like, oh, yeah, 40, I think it was 40% from, he was moving so fast. I'm just, I just don't, I don't need it. I don't need the 2Kification of every broadcast. It's just, it's not necessary. Was it 40% at the rim? Because these kinds of, but those 40% are all dunks. So, you know, it is exciting. They are all several. I'll forget about the other ones. So our big surprise is the three. of us being cranky. Yes.

Well, let me bridge the gap here to the Sons who they, of themselves, are surprises because they're nine and six somehow, some way. It does feel like they have streamlined what they're doing, and it just feels like it just works. You guys talked at length earlier this season about the defensive pressure of the Portland Trailblazers and how much success that they were having with the wings, the one score, and the big old guy at the rim. The Sons look pretty similar.

last night on the court. It just so happens that the one guy and the one score is Devin fucking Booker and so it helps in that regard. But it's funny because we talked going into the season about all the consternation about the defense and the war awards between Matt Ishpia and actually Michael Pina.

But it seems like they had, they built their entire identity around defense. Yeah. And it's actually working to a certain extent because they're just overwhelmed with these three and D sorts of guys. And so it's working. I don't know the viability of it when the con, competition starts to kick up because they've had a pretty cake schedule thus far.

But I don't know, Rob, like, I think they can only be so bad because the outline is just one that we've seen work time and time again. The outline does work. And to your point about what their defense is, like just having guys like Dylan Brooks and Ryan Dunn, making it harder for opponents like the Blazers who even get into their stuff raises the floor significantly. And a lot of that comes from something that is not even the structure of the team. I think it's the spirit of the team. I think a lot of, and maybe those things are related, depending on who your personnel is.

Certainly that plays a part, but last season the suns carried themselves like a team that had already won. And now they carry themselves like a team that has to earn everything. And that is the fundamental difference in their play. Like sometimes basketball is as simple as understanding how hard you have to work to win.

And this is a team that is working their asses off all the time, to the point that every role player who stayed on from last season looks better and more comfortable. And some of that is the flow of the offense. Some of that is the like slap the floor kind of energy of the defense. There is just a collaborative spirit there that really, really works. And I think the depth has been part of that pleasant surprise too. Like it all just kind of clicks together in a way where they are a high energy team

that feeds into being a high execution team basically all the time. They're going to make you earn it for 48 minutes. I credit Matt Ishbia and his scrappiness on Twitter. I think that tweet motivated them. You think so? Lit a fire. I think it lit a fire and I think it's just been, it's rippled out from there. If you look at their big man rotation last year, it was Plumlee, Nick Richards, who love him, but come on.

And then use of Nerkich. So not exactly, you know, an iron curtain around the basket. And this year, I mean, like, you know, Mark Williams jumps at a lot of stuff. He gets a lot of stuff. He's froggy, but he's at least a little bit more of a springy body. We'll see if Milowatch can come along and contribute. He's a longer term kind of a thing. But I think they just improve their room pressure.

I think it's more of a balanced beast. Whereas last year it was all pull-up shooting, not as much rim pressure. It's just a more competent team. You know, let's celebrate the little wins. You know, like you were saying, I don't know that it's necessarily going to hold up against the scrutiny of the top stuff in the West. But to go from where they were, which was very depressing, it was very sad to watch my Phoenix friends online to slowly descend into depression.

And this is a step in the right direction for us. Yeah, they've definitely been a big surprise for me. Dylan Brooks now has had success with three separate teams just by galvanizing them by how much of a psychopath he is. And it's gotten to the point now where I'm starting to reconsider Memphis where it's just like, I think we all probably agreed he was the fall guy for a lot of things that were going wrong there. But, you know, Brooks doesn't help himself definitely a lot, you know,

in a lot of different ways. But what he does is successful for as much, as you need it. He's the guy that just like set the foundation and then after you have two years of them, you go tired of him and then he moves along. But he's doing it again. And it feels like if anything, he's kind of the emotional totem of this entire team. And you're right. It just feels like there's just so much effort and there's a gritty mentality, which compared to last season, which is just moody complaining and just people trying to go for their own shots. It's like, it's tough. Like Kevin Duran is an immaculate basketball player, but like he sucks as a teammate by and large if you rely on

him to be the one spurring you. Like he's not the type of number one who's going to trickle down the energy. And so it works, man. And then just like, I'm surprised even saying it out loud, but like Brooks is, he deserves his followers to a certain degree. I even think Kevin Durant sucks as a teammate might be a little extreme, but you're like, you know what I mean? Just like as the emotional focal point. Yeah. Yes. And like for for us, talented as all those guys in Phoenix. Where, like, Devin Booker is in that category, too, an awesome all-around player, but is not a galvanizing force.

He's not necessarily, I mean, he's vocal in like a chirping shit talk kind of way, but not necessarily vocal in a raw, raw, I'm going to raise everybody's level kind of way. And that's all right. Like some superstars, some stars are not that sort of player, but you have to find that energy from somewhere. And the Dylan Brooks honeymoon, which, look, will run its course, as you alluded to. It's like a year and a half to two years. that is about the timeline.

This is the fun part. This is the part where you're, it's all sewing and no reaping as of yet. And so where the sons are is exciting. And I think the question with a Dylan Brooks type of team is like, how do you keep that going? How do you harness this into renewable energy? And like who are the other guys who are going to get you riding the same kind of wave?

Dylan Brooks is sort of like his career arc is turning into one of those like anthology TV shows where the stranger comes to town and there's like a story arc. And then at the end of the season, waving at them as he leaves town. I just feel like that's just kind of what's happened. Just the real Boyd-Holbrook type, you know, just a mysterious presence. Right. Well, it's funny because in Portland, we have discussions about why the Blazers drafted Yang over Cedric Coward probably every day. Do you? I still, well, people kind of talk at them or at me when they're talking about. I still think Yang, we have no idea. But Coward has been

awesome. I do wonder if the better question is why did they draft Malawatch and not Coward? Because the Brooks trajectory is like, yeah, it will run its course, but you're also wondering after you get to a certain level, like, how do you get higher? And what they do need are ceiling raisers long term. And if they didn't have Malawatch is not playing, because as Kyle alluded to, the center rotation is fine. And Malwatch just kind of looks like a mess. He was getting to actually brutalized by Yang and G League the other night. I think they need that one guy in order to, you you spark them because they're missing the offensive pop. They've been fine when Booker's off the court this year because Colisey's been good and Grayson Allen's been very good. Holy shit. Grayson.

Where did this Grayson Allen come from? He has these moments. He had it like his first year in Phoenix, but I do think that... This is like weeks on end of him being just like a legit almost 20 a game score. Yeah. But I think that's going to run its course eventually and they are going to need a number two, like a proper number two next to Booker. And the one thing that's unfortunate is like, if they had Coward in there instead of Malwatch, that's like the type of franchise changing sort of pick difference that would make a difference.

It could be. I would say a couple things. One, Cedric Howard is off to an amazing start. We have raved about him all season. Like, we are fans of what he is putting on the table right now. Who's to say who he's going to be in two or three years? Who's to say, like, where the ceiling is going to come down? And like, we just don't know.

And as far as like moves that could, transform the team, I think there's an argument that if you think the sons are going to be good enough to compete in the present tense, the guys you should be swinging on could be more projects, could be like, okay, we have a rotation that we like, we have a lot of role players we like, why not see what Malawatch can be? Why not see if he can be the sort of big that opens things up for your team long term in a way that maybe you believe Mark Williams will be that guy, maybe you don't. I don't think anyone believes Nick Richards will be that guy with all due respect. So it's like maybe he could be transformational in his own way, even if he's not

Cedric Coward. Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about why they wouldn't have taken coward. I mean, maybe they just saw the need. And it was sort of a bet on, you know, Reshir Fleming. You know, I didn't believe in Rochir as much as other people did. Maybe they saw those two guys and thought value, not that, you know, values better in a distance between those two players. It's not as we don't think it's that big. Maybe that was a bet on that. The other thing that we haven't really even talked about here is the Jalen Green of it all. I mean, you're talking about an offensive pop. Is he going to be able to be contained and bottled in a way that's going to be conducive to helping it without spilling out and, like, corrupting the whole thing?

Because that's sort of been the Jalen Green talking about narrative arcs of a career. That's been his so far. Yeah, what does history tell you, Kyle? It says he'll probably be waving as he leaves town or just peeling, peeling out as he leaves town for the next destination where he gets the opportunity to be a star, quotes. I want to give him a chance with this team for sure because they could use some of what he brings to the table without a doubt. Justin, just zero, we don't know that. He's due to be out for quite a while even still

and coming back from a hamstring even when he does always worries me with a player like Jalen Green when you had that kind of like soft tissue mobility restraint because the best parts of him are driving parts of him. They are agile, they're athletic, they're explosive. Who is he going to be even when he comes back in five weeks or however long he's supposed to be on the shelf. So it's like there are layered concerns with Jalen Green

compounded by the fact that like they can be a good defensive team with him on the floor, but they're probably a better defensive team without him on the floor. Yeah, they've developed structure without him. Jalen Green, as we've seen, just breaks structure pretty routinely. The two games that he played were fine. You did okay. Wasn't a lot of passing on his end, but like they need the scoring juice.

I think they're going to need it as the season goes along, even though right now their offense is better than their defense. at least from the rating standpoints. But, you know, we'll see. If he's just splitting time with Booker and you're largely relying on him to run the second units and he's playing mostly against second units, it's not an awful role for him,

but ultimately you're going to have to overlap those guys and finish games with them because of what is just reputation suggests. But at this point, I'm more optimistic about the Suns than I ever imagined I'd be at this point. So this is all found money, regardless of what happens with him. This is just a legit play-in caliber team. and that was not something we could just pencil in in our preseason power rankings. I think we had a lot of skepticism about almost every element of this roster and how it was going to play out.

And I hope we get a version where Jalen Green brings out something totally new in them. And we're talking about them a month or two months from now as a team that's even taking another step forward. I think our only hesitation is because they've been this good, because Colin Gillespie and Grayson Allen have been as good as they've been, if those guys had been disasters, we'd be begging for more Jalen Green for a chance. team like this. And so because the overall operation is so stout and so deep and so successful in working off of each other, this is another case

where I almost don't want to shake things up too much because I'm so impressed by what's going on there. And credit to Jordan Ott, who we haven't mentioned here, just two championship winning coaches tried and failed their hands at trying to bring some sort of semblance of consistency or anything to the Suns previously. Completely

different task here with like younger, hungrier guys, but he is the right coach for this team. And it seems like there's a symbiosis going there. And so credit the suns. Fun and exciting. Haven't said that since the finals run, maybe. Because that's when they ate and stuff originally soured.

A sobering thought, but I think you're right. It's been a long time since they've been both. And so that they've been so successful while also been just like so energizing to watch, a welcome addition to the league pass rotation to say the least. Yeah. Just they say about this podcast, fun and successful. I hope they say that. We are certainly both of those things.

No one can argue it. We'll see a fart monster 69 agrees with you. I think it was fart muncher. Can we get a correct? Bart, fart muncher. Okay, yeah. I can't keep it.

I can't keep up. Shouts to my guy, Bart. All right, we'll be back on Sunday. We'll continue the good vibes and marking some of the successful teams with our one month awards, which we typically do after, believe it or not, one month.

We'll do that on Sunday. and then we got something special for you for Thanksgiving. Check that out. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll talk to you next time. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino

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