The Ringer NBA Show - The Pros and Cons of the In-Season Tournament | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 5, 2023

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan joins Justin and Rob to discuss their overall first impressions on the NBA’s inaugural in-season tournament. They share what they’ve liked and disliked about the first set of games and hypothesize what the future of the tournament could be (1:20). Later, they talk about the 76ers' early-season success, the positive influence of Nick Nurse, and the Kelly Oubre Jr. renaissance (44:24). Lastly, they discuss what has been working for the Mavericks so far this season and analyze what Kyrie’s role has looked like in Dallas (56:23). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney Guest: Chris Ryan Producer: Jack Sanders Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if you got scammed? Would you suffer in silence, or would you do something about it? Well, I got scammed once, and this is the story of what I did. I'm Justin Sales, the host of the Wedding Scammer, a true crime podcast from The Ringer, and for seven episodes, we're hunting a comment, a guy with a lot of aliases, a guy who's ruined a lot of weddings, and with the help of some friends, I just might be able to catch him. Listen to The Wedding Scammer on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

And welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier. Joining me, as always, Rob Mahoney. Big Waz is not here today, but in his stead, we have enlisted a tournament expert. And that's Chris Ryan. Hi, Chris. What's up, guys? Just got done with my bottomless mimoses. And I'm really happy to be here on Daylight Savings Sunday to talk about the long-storied history of the NBA in-season tournament.

I don't know what it is about you, Chris, but you struck me as more of a Bellini guy. Maybe it's like you have such a high sugar energy level as it is. I just kind of assumed. Espresso martini's before noon. So we asked Chris to join us today, not only because we enjoyed talking to Chris, but I think you're on the record at this point that you are pro in-season tournament, right? Yeah. That's nice of you to say we asked Chris when I said,

I would like to come on group chat to talk about the glories of the in-season tournament. No, I think it's, I'm very pro. part of it is my hipster European soccer fandom, European football fandom, and seeing like different competitions run parallel to one another. And the other is just like, it's just a relief to talk about basketball and not trade demands and, you know, cap space and all this other stuff. And just to have like a new actual on court, very much on court basketball thing to talk about And just getting out from under the hardened nightmare.

It's been, it was fun on Friday night to feel like it was like, was it March badness? It was not. But was it pretty entertaining and kind of worth multiple screens? I thought it was. Maybe not as entertaining as hell as Bill would have projected years ago when he came up with this. It was pretty good, though.

I think the average margin of victory between the seven games that were going on was like five points, which and there was some bullshit stat about like, oh, that was the fewest, that was the lowest margin of victory for this many games in a long time. I guess my question, Rob, is do we think that the excitement about the tournament, the thrill of the competition that the NBA has been selling us on, ad nauseum for weeks on end at this point, was what led to that, or did we just happen to get good games on a night when, on a Friday where there was just a bunch of them scheduled? Yeah, the causality, I think, is tough for to trace. There's definitely some stacking of the deck in terms of the matchups, the games. Like, these are good matchups for

a tournament kickoff kind of occasion for sure. But I think in those games, not only were the final margins tight, but we had big comebacks in a bunch of those games. And I think that, to me, is a testament of group play margin of victory being a factor, right? Like, the way you get out of these early rounds into the actual tournament is you can't get blown out by 20 points.

And so I think we saw teams in the late third, early fourth, like going after it in ways that if we're being honest on a normal regular season slate, maybe they wouldn't have. And some of it is that. And some of it is basically every star who was available actually played in these games,

short of Shay Gilges Alexander who was a knee sprain. He was really the only guy who was out. So the best example of that is probably like Luca and Kyrie staying in that Mavericks game to shave it down. I think what did they get within like eight or something?

They got pretty close. Yeah. And that was an example of like, I feel like if that was like a Wednesday and in December, they're like, all right, you guys are done.

But this was, this was actually pretty exciting. And I know the commentators, I think it was the national game. They were like, oh, you know, like the tournament beckons.

So Luca and Kyrie here, reporting for duty. But I, look, I'll take close NBA basketball games on a Friday night. Totally. I thought that,

like, you know, once I got over the migraine of the Bucks court, it was like, Probably the best looking of them all. Well, I mean, it's the least intense. Yeah, we can talk about that way.

Least intense, yes. I think I got very into the flow of it. And then like you guys are saying, like it just seemed as though neither like the gris and the blazers were like, I don't want to lose this. You know what I mean? Like, we'll go to overtime. Let's do it.

The grizzly's got 63 points from Desmond Bain and Jared Jackson and lost to the Blazers. Only in the turn. That is the tournament beckoning. in the tournament. Yeah, because they definitely wouldn't blow a game. They should definitely have won this regular season. Of course not.

Well, I think what was interesting to me is, like, yeah, I was excited for this new thing. Like, I'm very pro the idea of an in-season tournament. To me, despite all the, like, the pomp and circumstance and ESPN constantly reminding you of the stakes, the stakes never really seemed present to me during these games, despite the weirdo courts and some of the jerseys and some of the other things that were going not here, the aesthetics of it all. But like, as I was watching, I'll be honest, it kind of went out of mind to me that this was a group play game. It kind of felt like a typical, just competitive Friday night. Like, did you guys feel while you were watching it that something was happening

here beyond just like a regular season game? I actually thought the court helped with that. And they're weird and their technicolor and look, some ill-advised, to be sure, in terms of some of the color scheming going on. But, look, I think this is a safe space. for me to admit, I'm kind of digging the weird court experience as a marker for that very thing. Like, it felt singular. It felt different to me. It made the game stand out in a way that maybe it's just like us being weirdos in the weeds of this stuff where I'm just like constantly watching games literally every night. And so having something that is visually a different palette sets it pretty clearly apart. But I thought that was actually a pretty decent marker,

whatever you may think of, of the execution of those courts. I think of the first thing you said, Justin, about, like, the, or Rob, you were pointing out the, basically the point differential mattering here and having, and needing that for group stage standings did make a huge difference. You know, like, we have tried, we've tried armchair quarterbacking, like, a bunch of, like, rule changes for the NBA and ideas about how to make it more interesting. Take games away. Add this, add that. Take this away. Like, look, I mean, this was like a little bit of a wrinkle that I thought did kind of give the games a little bit more. As far as like the advertising of it, I think we have to acknowledge the fact that this is the first year they're doing it. Yes.

And if they were just like, eh, don't worry about it. We're just going to have another Friday night. And they're like, yeah, these are tournament games, but don't pay attention to that. I think we'd be like, well, then what's the point?

You guys aren't even advertising it. You're not even making a big deal about it. I did think it seemed like there was a clip on social media of Steph. He was running down the tunnel. And they were like, what night is it? And he's like, it's tournament Friday. And it was like,

Exactly. Did the direct deposit hit as the last syllable of what he said hit? Yes, but... I think it's the difference between selling it and marketing it and then just like cramming it down your throat. And I do think they've taken a step a little too far to the point where like, before every one of these games, it's guys in like basically hostage-style clips being like,

yes, I want to compete so badly to win this cup that I've never heard of before. And shout to Jimmy Butler on an ESPN article, I believe by Tim Bontems that he wrote before the tournament started, where he was basically saying the quiet part loud, which is like, I don't give a shit about this. I only care about the NBA title. Like, that to me felt more genuine. And at the very least, you're like kind of not lying to me outright.

I could buy into this product you're trying to sell me on. And then I could be a little bit more like accepting of it. This is such a just an ass take. Yeah, I don't mean to be like Tyler Darden here and just being like all commerce is bad. But like, Jimmy, Jimmy Butler is the only guy who tells the truth around here. Give me a break. Jimmy fucking Butler.

Come on. Jimmy Butler's whole mentality is like grind mode. I get up before everybody. Mark Wahlberg taught me how to sleep. And you're telling me that Jimmy Butler is like there's no incentive for me to what. Play a regular season game. That's the thing that we have to stress is like these are regular season games. They're going to count against the standings until I think the semis, right?

Or there's the championship? I think when they go to Vegas for the semias, right? When they go to Vegas, that's when it's no longer. regular season games. So yes, feel free to keep scoring 16 points, Jimmy Butler, but like, I think that this is just like a different light layer to like put

down on the regular season. That's the smartest thing that they're doing. I think if they had been like, these are extra games or we tie this entire thing up to this sort of incentive package, which I actually find a little bit bizarre. It seems to be somewhat of a media

narrative of like, what is this for? Why would you even do that? Why are you even to try for this. $500,000 isn't enough or a million dollars is enough. It's like, I don't know. I mean, like, this works in Europe, fully, full on. Like, they play different cup competitions. There are certain teams that are better known for being better in cup competitions than

they are in their leagues. Like, you qualify for different ones. It's pretty entertaining for the most part. Like, when you see, like, a team that's like basically a Cinderella story knock off, like, one of the big six in England. Like, it's fun. Trust me. And I think it's the same way it is in March Madness when you're,

Like, oh, Duke lost. That's awesome. How much of that is because of the established history that these things matter? So we're on the ground floor of history, baby. Here's the big secret. The championship doesn't matter either. It's a fucking piece of metal that we decided mattered one day. And so if the players decide that this matters, and they're ultimately going to be in the position to do that, it will.

And if they don't, then it's going to be out of the league in five years. I think that's a good question, though. Does this have to matter to the players, or does it actually have to matter to the fans? And the more I think about this, I actually think the incentive has to ally with the fans. And I think the part of it that really, I'm kind of on the fence on at this point.

We've only seen the one that we haven't seen a second or third. So maybe all this stuff we're talking about get sorted out over the next few. I do wonder if the group play part of it is part of why it didn't signal to me, like the stakes that are just right in front of you. I wonder, what do you guys think about this idea? What if all of the games were knockout play?

Oh my God, Justin, like we would be podcasting 24 hours a day. I would mandate that because if it was knockout Fridays and like they did it basically over the first few months of the season where they had, I don't know, like a triple header of knockout games, I would be glued to my screen. And you know who else would be like going out of their minds? Portland fans because they did it for a group stage game against the Grizzlies. Like that was a really good crowd on a weird night with no serious. scoot, and they were going nuts in Portland for that game. And I think it had some special quality

to it, which is what you sometimes find when you're watching these cup games in football, where you see all of a sudden like a different vibe in the crowd. I don't know what it is necessarily. Yes, it's probably the history. It's probably the opportunity to have a little bit of glory in a season where you're really just playing for lottery position. I mean, give me a break. They have to play this game anyway. If they win five of them, they're going to be In Vegas, that's pretty sick. You could tell it matter to Choncy Billups. You could tell it matter to some of these guys.

It matter to Draymond to go to Vegas for free. Sure. Like, that's the thing is, like, I know that these guys can go to Vegas. Like, James Hark goes to Vegas whenever he wants. Yeah. I do think there's an interesting, like, walking of the line there with the NBA wanting this thing to be taken seriously, which I think is why you do the group play, right? It's like you don't want the best teams getting knocked out in the first round.

And then the final is, you know, Portland and Houston. That's not exactly what you're hoping for. That's the worst feeling in March Madness where you're like, nothing is certain, everybody's lost. And then you get to the final four and you're like, wait, Houston and this George Mason, like, where's dude?

So that's where it gets tricky in terms of balancing those motivations because I agree, like instantaneous elimination. Like that is a very compelling thing to watch. And I think that the NBA has not had at all. So grasping at that is nice. But that's where I think a little buildup to the entertaining as hell,

portion of this tournament. I think it works. Like, I think we're going to get the group play. Group play, as we've seen in Fibah and the Olympics, like, it's always, like, kind of funky in a way that's enjoyable. So you get some funky games out of the way, and then you get to the real stuff, starting with the quarterfinal in Vegas.

Like, I'm, I'm amped for it. I'm really amped to see how those elimination games go, to see the energy in the building at a neutral site, something the NBA doesn't have a lot of on its normal calendar. I just think there's a lot of newness here that works. And we're going to... No, no, go ahead, Rob, sorry. I was just going to say, we're going to see, again, how invested all parties involved are in it and making that effective.

And, you know, the incentive structures are going to be what they are until enough people grouse about it. But I really don't have much of a problem with the current setup, to be honest. It's going to be fascinating to see if any, like, it's not really even tactical as much as, like, philosophical things come in from Cup football about, A, like, there will be like must win group stage games because you're going to be. almost out of it, right? So there will be some random Friday night where the Pacers have to beat a team to continue in the tournament or they'll get basically mathematically eliminated.

And then I'm really curious to see whether or not you don't want to meet Spoe in a back alley in like an elimination game kind of stuff. Like we're like, if there are extra layers of like tactical preparation that go into these like random Friday nights, like that will be actually pretty fascinating if Rick Carlisle gets in his bag

and all of a sudden has a bunch of different counters for something on a Friday night where maybe he would ordinarily be like, yeah, man, just throwing in Miles Turner and wake me in the third quarter, you know? Right.

Well, I'm glad you mentioned the football part of it because I have now watched the David Beckham documentary. I watch occasionally, welcome to Rexum. So I am something of a footy expert. The one thing about the FAA Cup,

which I now know what that is in Vegas, what goes into it is it seems like the appeal to that is that there are lower level teams competing against higher level teams in addition to the history behind it and so there's like this added emphasis to it would you guys be more interested or less interested in this if there was that sort of wrinkle to this tournament that you involved i don't know g league ignite or just european teams like last year for instance if victor webb and yama happened to be playing against lebron james in the first round like that would be absolutely incredible i don't know what it would be this year.

Like, I can't even name, like, the next Euro prospect. But does that, Chris, like, appeal to you as an NBA fan? Yeah, I mean, I think that there's something kind of neat about the FA Cup where it's, like, basically a Sunday league team can, like, advance far enough to play Manchester United. Like, that is, that is pretty awesome. I will say that, like, I think the more we try to make this, like, an international or, like, if you start introducing G-League teams, you're going to, then you're really,

going to get into, okay, this needs to be separate from the NBA season. And the needle that they've threaded here is, look, treat it as the tournament or just consider it like Friday night and will Dallas stay undefeated. Like, that's, it's the same thing. So for as long as they can kind of walk that line, I think that they can, they can basically be bulletproof to this. They can be like, look, it's just Friday night NBA basketball. Feel free to enjoy it as a different thing. Or feel free to just be like it is, it is like a normal, regular season game. I think that once we get to the later stages of the group stages and the eliminations, it's when it's going to really come to life.

And that's also when, you know, I think that the fan bases and the teams that maybe are like, look, best case scenario, we're looking at a plan, worst case, we're in the lottery or like, you know, and then we're basically essentially only of interest to people because of what we're going to do in the draft. Like, that gives these teams like a much different lease on life. And I've seen, like, with my own eyes,

I mean, as everybody else has, like, a cup win in Europe can really, like, be like something to hang your hat on. And on top of that, let's say Denver goes out and wins it. And Denver goes out and they win last year's finals, this year's commission, this year's in-season tournament, and this year's finals. Like, I think that's pretty impressive. I think doing the double, which is, you know, very, if you've seen the Beckham Dock, they do the treble in 99, Manchester United. Like, if the Nuggets were to somehow go on a trophy run right now, how cool would that be? Like, we would really have to start talking about that team and in more wide historical context. Yeah, that's where I would definitely push back on the idea of incorporating non-NBA teams to the G League.

I agree, just like waters down the ultimate product. And as far as the international teams, when there is a Victor Web and Yama, it's interesting. But the reality is that most years, Real Madrid is just like Sergio Rodriguez. And it's like, all right, welcome back. I'd love to see that guy. I'm not opposed to it, but I don't think it's going to give you the juice that you're looking for. I think overall, the tournament product right now,

there's not like a very easy, elegant way to explain it, right? The group stage, into the out rounds, into Vegas, what's with these weird courts? There's a lot of legwork that needs to be done to kind of pitch it, which is part of why I'm fine with them selling it as aggressively as they are. Like, you kind of need people to understand what's happening. And I think the worst-case scenario for the league is not, that the tournament games are bad,

it's that people don't know what's happening at all. And so the fact that we're on these tournament Fridays, the games are competitive, the court looks different, these are players you know in situations you know.

I think that's a meaningful thing. When you say people, do you mean Bones Highland? I'm not sure what Bones Highland is or is not aware of at any given point in time. They asked Bones about it. He was just like, I have to admit, I have no idea what's going on.

I just look at the schedule and there's a trophy next to some of these Friday night games. Truth Warrior, Bones Highland. Just, we'll say the, the hard truths about Nicola Yokish and the in-season tournament. Aren't you guys relieved, though, to be talking about this rather than, like,

who's in poll position for the MVP in early November? Yes. I'm ready to talk about Sixers' like trade scenario, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. No! No, I mean, yeah, it does give you something early on in the season. Actually, that's a good question for you guys. Rob, do you think this is too early to do something like this? Because I is like a regular NBA fan. I'm still getting a handle.

on some of these teams. Like the Blazers, as Chris mentioned, like, I'm still getting a grasp of Shaden Sharp and what he can do and what this team really is and how far they can go with that young team. Do you think it's, like, good to give them a stage for that? Or would you rather this come a little later in the season? I think if it goes later,

then it gets into what's the point territory. Because you already have the playoffs to signify that. I like it as a getting to know these teams. The idea of the tournament as an introduction to the new look bucks and the growing up thunder and whatever it is that the Grizzlies are doing on a night-to-night basis, right? It's not meant to be definitive.

It's just meant to be competitive. And if you can offer that, I like it as a welcome to the NBA season before we get to the Christmas slate where a lot of people start watching. So in England, they do two-cup competitions domestically. They do the League Cup, which pretty much plays out along the lines

of where the in-season tournament is for the NBA, where it's like basically first half of the season wraps up, I think, in December. I can't quite remember, but they're in like the quarters, the quarterfinals now. And then there's the FA Cup, which goes across the entire year

and has its final right around the end of the Premier League season, I believe a little bit after. And sometimes you can see if a team is safe from relegation, they basically stop trying in the league to like make sure that they will be all healthy for the FA Cup final and stuff like that.

So I think that for the purposes of the NBA, this is actually perfectly scheduled because this is right at the point where people are like, there sure are a lot of basketball games on every night and everybody's two and three. So I will check in once football, my football team is out of contention or whatever.

Like the average sports fan is probably like, that's basketball overload. And there's a little bit of a lull after that first initial burst of interest in the NBA that goes honestly until Christmas, if you're casual, and then you're like, now I'm watching.

And then what happens on Christmas is you tune in and like four of the 10 stars you wanted to watch aren't playing. So this gives people a little bit of something to hang their interest on, I think, up until that Christmas sort of early season climax.

Yeah, I guess my only feedback for the NBA is I wonder if it could lead into Christmas and like the semis or the finals could be on Christmas. But I guess if you're looking at it more from a business perspective, maybe the NBA doesn't want to co-op something that it already kind of has territory over.

Yeah, and I think also like having every single person involved in the NBA, possibly having to work on Christmas much harder than they already do is tough. You know, I mean, it is Christmas. Football would never say that. This is NBA fucking soft shit. They all play on Boxing Day the day after Christmas. That's true. I see. Well, plus that's where the uncertainty really works against you, right? The idea that you're going to play a Christmas without LeBron, without Zion, without Luca, you know, without Nicole Yokic, like, you're just going to write those guys off to potentially have, again, like two random ass teams, the final, which would be very fun, but not exactly necessarily what, you know, you and your dad and

your grandpa are signing up for when you have to, you know, explain who Shaden Sharp is to them. Can you imagine having to go to your significant other or your family and be like, I would really love to have Christmas with you, but unfortunately the Thompson twins are squaring off in the in-season tournament championship game? Honestly, it's not all that different to when I have to explain what I'm doing on Christmas for the past 15 years. And it's like, oh, I've watched the Xbox game at 10 o'clock in the morning. Yeah. Well, I do think how this plays off of football and, like, the targeting of it all is pretty

interesting, if only because we're going to be watching this shit regardless. In a lot of ways, we're probably the worst people to ask about this because we're sickos and we're going to be watching these games if they have no stakes to them. I thought it was interesting. I think, Chris, you brought this up earlier, that a lot of guys who had been on the injury reserve list are just out for a little bit all of a sudden pop back up into our lives, the calves in particular, all of a sudden had their entire team that they hadn't been playing for the past couple of days and weeks. Now, that's great for Friday in those games. I do wonder what

it means for the day after when the sons are trotting out like the C team at this point, because Dem Booker has a different injury and isn't like spurring himself to play in these. Like, do you think there could be like a bad causality here where the Friday night in-season games are really good, but maybe some of these in-between games get worse? And does that mean? matter to you at all. Are they even worse? Are they just kind of the same as they were before? To me, NBA fans are already very used to the idea that every game is not the same. They are not worth the same. They don't matter the same. The NBA has basically said this as much with its player participation policy, right? Like, if you rest on national games, that's when you get in trouble.

Those are the ones that matter. These games matter more than the other ones on your schedule. It's the reality of playing 82. And so I don't think you're really going to make every game count unless you're willing to significantly shorten the schedule, which the owners certainly have said they are not willing to do, and that's fine. But just because you can't make everything matter doesn't mean that you can't make more things matter. And this makes more things matter. It makes more games meaningful, at least so far it has. We're one game in, but that's the theory behind it.

That's kind of what the NBA is aiming for. And if that's the result, I think that's a win, even if it results in some of the other games being normal, ho-hum, December regular season basketball. I don't think we have enough of these things, honestly. Like, it's Sunday morning. I'm going out of my mind because it's Eagles Cowboys in a couple of hours. Like, I have been looking forward to this for three weeks. The other games have not mattered as much.

Like, Eagles commanders did not matter to me as much as this game coming up. I want to get excited for Luca versus Yokic. And if this gives them a little bit more incentive to like make sure that both of those guys are there, that's fine if they also then take off the Sunday game or something like that. I think that that's totally normal. normal. And on top of that, I think because they are making these part of the regular season, we're not going to get into a Devin Booker had to hurt his ankle in an exhibition game. It's like, it's not an exhibition game. He's welcome not to play. Like, they're actually

in these cup competitions, many big teams play their bench and their kids in the early rounds of these cup games, assuming that they can probably beat lower competition. And we might even find that Popovich or somebody is just like, I don't really give a shit, I'm going to rest my guys tonight. You know, like, they are free to do that. But as we've seen in this first week, small sample size, it's okay to care about basketball and have a good time watching it. We're just a couple of grown men looking for things to care about, you know?

I don't see anything wrong with that. It's just weird messaging, though, because they're saying, hey, we want to make the regular season matter more, right? But in actuality, what they're saying is we want this percentage of the regular season to matter and this other part of it to matter less. But that percentage is still greater than what it was before. Yes. Like I, we, we all have just like been banging our heads against the wall for years now being

like, God, this is hard when like it just doesn't feel like it has any juice except for like the random close game or some spectacular individual performance. the idea that maybe one game on a Friday night might matter a little bit is actually like really, really enticing to me. I also think the difference is an approach that you talked about, Chris, with the European clubs, like some playing their younger guys through early stages, that could be fun too, right? I'm here for it. Let's do it. If the Warriors decide like, this is Moses Moody time and we're going to showcase young talent and see what they can do in games, again, that actually matter, I think that's a data point of interest

in terms of who Moses Moody is, how competitive the Warriors are, you know, with the various permutations of their team. Like, I'm all for that stuff too. Yeah, I think we keep saying, like, in games that actually matter. I'm not totally sure if they do matter yet is my concern. You know, like, I think it's still TBD. I think, like, the, like, markers aesthetically and whatnot

and what the people are telling us are that it matters more. I think it remains to be seen whether or not they matter more. But it's more, like, we can tell that it already matters more than the All-Star game or, you know, like, it has like something to it, even if the fact that, like, we're talking about it, which ultimately is, like, me demanding that we talk about it. But like, we are talking about it. It is a point of interest. And it's a point of interest that I think is basso-c ball-centric, which is really nice because usually, before you have a big enough sample size to start saying definitively, like, this team's got it or this team doesn't, a lot of what we talk about is like, what can they do a January trade? deadline. And are we sure Darrell Morey's safe? And like what, what it's going to happen if Hardin and Westbrook can't get along? Like, all that stuff is like ancillary. Like, this is actually just like a cool new way to look at like the regular season. And yeah, I mean, I suppose the last bit here that we haven't really figured out and no one else has really is the incentive part. Um, you know, I think it would be great if like there was a massive cash reward to every player who

participates in this, I suppose, like, I'm all for that. But I'm not really sure how to do a la carte compensation, um, where it's like, you start getting into just like, oh, you want me to try on this night? Well, then that will be extra. You know what I mean? Like, I think at a certain point, like, everything we're told is that these guys cannot like walk three feet without getting into a race with one another. Like, it's competitive all the time with NBA players. These are professional athletes. Most of the coaches used to be professional athletes. Like, these guys are all like in the upper 99th percentile of competitive people on this planet.

I don't really know that there needs to be a ton of financial motivation to want to be like, hey, we won. I actually like the team level benefits that have been discussed. You know, the Tyrese Halliburton Amendment. You know, he gave us a quote to Yahoo about this, about like, what if it was an automatic playoff berths?

That might be extreme, but I like the kind of leveling up idea of, say, if you win the tournament, but you finish 11 to 15 in the standings, let's give you an automatic play-in birth. If you finish 7 to 10 in the standings, let's say you automatically advance out of the play-in into the playoffs. If you finish 1 through 6 in the standings,

automatic home court advantage or something like that. Let's give you a bump up from wherever you finished based on the fact that you won this tournament. I like that better than the draft compensation kind of conversation. Even the money stuff is nice, but honestly, one of the ideas that I saw on Twitter that's been kicking around my head that's really growing on me is what if you use the money

and through the entire city a pizza party of the winning team. That's pretty good. That kind of rules. Shout out to whoever came up with that one. So anything on a team level or a civic level I'm in favor of

because I agree, like the players, I think they're going to be more juiced by the idea of the competition and if they imbue this thing with meaning, then, oh, I can get 500K out of this. I actually don't give a shit if the players want to give more effort or not. Like you're contracted to do this.

Isn't that what we're talking about, though? Isn't that what we've been circling this whole time, whether the players will care? Well, no. I actually think that's sort of priced in to NBA basketball for me. I just expect them to give as much effort as like they typically do. And I think it, like we were saying before, I think it remains to be seen whether or not they are giving more. But I think you're right, Rob.

I do think the incentives have to lie on the team level. If only because of what I was talking before, I think this needs to appeal to fans more anybody else. And so if like my team like has an option to like get a extra draft pick or like get a little bit farther in the playoffs or get to pick their own opponent if they make it to the playoffs, like I will care more about this Friday night game than I typically would have. So that actually leads to my my amendment, the CR amendment. Yeah. I think they should take a lot of the finance. I mean, just just this is just an idea, but you take a lot of the financial compensation that's being kicked around. And I think that the,

tickets to these games should be $10. Ooh, I like that. And you get absolutely rocking stadiums of people who may be ordinarily, like, this is a Friday night, you get to go to a game on like a more of like a 1980s price point. And I would even go as far to say to really get super European football with it, like, teams should charter a plane to let, to take visiting fans to games. And there should be like a visiting fans, like, a way end and like start to really give the atmosphere because that was the thing.

I noticed about that Blazers Grizzlies game, which is a game I honestly would never in the million years of thought to watch unless it was part of the tournament. And I was like, you know what? This Blazers crowd is like pretty pumped up. This is pretty awesome. And I was thinking like how amazing it would be if there was like 800 Grizzlies fans who had been flown there like on behalf of the Grizzlies to like support their team. Like yeah, there are lots of ways going into the third quarter. How cool would that be? I mean, I just think that there are there are ways in which they're, there's still like, there are still creative ways to execute this. Should we light fires indoors as well?

Yes. Hell yes, we can. Yeah. I love the idea of making these for the people, though. Really, the idea of paying the players more to compete, that's real trickle-down economic stuff. We need to bring up the common man. Because that always works.

That's what I'm saying. I agree with our overall idea, which is like if the fans are interested, if the culture of the sport is interested, the players will be interested. Everybody who works at the Ford plant gets to go to the Pistons game. How about that? You know, like, that would be cool.

Like, it would just be like, it would just be like, it would just be like, it would just be like people go into a basketball game and it not costing $400 before you get out of the door. Well, in the interim, we have these fucking courts, which, Rob, you play basketball fairly regularly these days. Have you ever said to yourself as you're going and playing in these lunchtime games against like other adult professionals? man, I really wish I was playing in a river of blood right now. In the river of sticks? This would just really up my game. It's good for the vibe, you know? It's an intimidation factor.

I can't say I personally have craved playing on such a court. But look, there's some weird-ass playground courts out there. There's some weird aqua and teal kinds of courts you will find yourself playing on from time to time in life. As to whether they bode well as an NBA product, I don't know. We haven't seen some of the best ones yet, to be fair. Like, I think the jazz have kind of a lavender number. Have you been scouting this out? Please, you haven't seen the full layout of all these courts?

I've seen a few of them. I know you've seen the Pelicans court. The fucking bones, like the glowy bones. Yeah, I'm really into that vibe. I think it contributes to the air that I want in group play, which is weird as hell. Funky shit, the NBA doesn't do anymore. Visual markers that this is something different.

and if that requires a river of blood to do it, so be it. If the elevator from the shining needs to open and then they play on that in Portland, that's what it needs to be. It's just the Thompson twins coming out of it. Yeah, it was weird that they went so hard on it. It's like, so the Bucks core, if we could circle back to that. I don't think it was, like, for any other reason

that the Bucks colors are some tan and green occasionally. But like, if it was a little bit more muted like that rather than completely taking, over the entire court with like some neon color. Did we watch the same game? Wasn't that like, I felt like I. That's the worst one.

I had a cluster headache watching that bucks game. Yeah. Well, the tan yellow reminded me more of like typical hardwood. And for me, that just like scanned is hardwood. Maybe my TV is just bad. I don't know.

No, I don't know what the bucks are doing with the whole like lake motif. They try to work into some of their stuff sometimes, but it's not working. Like we got to stop with the blues into the bucks color scheme. Yeah.

I prefer the blood red court to that. I prefer, you know, the, like, bright Lakers gold that we're going to get coming up soon. Like, I'm fine with that stuff relative to just these, like, weird clashing colors that some of these teams have going on. They had Cassie Hubbard talking. She was doing, like, a courtside report, and she had spoken to people who had been part of the design of these courts. And, like, as she was talking, I was like, this is one of those things that I actually feel like they shouldn't have explained at all. A, because it would have just been like, why is this happening? But B, her being like, yeah, and then the middle of the course,

court just painted the way it's painted because it's the runway to Vegas. Oh, no. You can't do that. I can't come up with like what would have been a better solution than what they did. It definitely was very eye-catching. I feel like the understanding of the like the, or the least like the chatter around the

in-season tournament went up like 25% when they introduced those courts. Like all of a sudden everybody was like, what is this? but it was, it took a while to get used to it. And I wonder if some of the players were like, what? Did you guys see the KD video? Like, they basically were showing the courts to all these stars.

And most of them were dutifully being like, that looks sick. Can't wait. Tournament Friday. And Katie was like, we're playing on a purple court in the NBA. Yeah. I would also note that like Tyrese Halliburton definitely took a spill pretty early.

And they were wiping that thing down, a lot in Indianapolis. This is worth talking about because I can't tell if I was seeing guys slip because of some kind of like confirmation bias in my brain that they should slip on these weird courts. Because Terry's Halliburton slipped on a similar spot on the court like a few games earlier first play of the game. Like I slip all the time.

Are they slipping because it's normal NBA basketball and some of these arenas are built on top of ice? Or are they slipping because it's a weird court surface? I don't know. I don't know. I'd stop being able to see anything because I've watched Joe Joel Embed fall to the ground for 10 years, so it always seems like it's slippery out there.

Also, if you watch last night's Hornets Pacer's game, there was plenty of slippage there as well. It's probably just the court itself makes you kind of more attuned to it. It's interesting with the color scheming, too, because I agree there are these crazy, bright colored courts. The majority of them, though, are like earth tones and neutral grays.

And your mileage may vary on, like, you know, the Nets had that kind of all-gris. race scale court a couple seasons ago. I'm not sure if that's your thing or not, but the majority of these are not really as in your face as the, you know, the aquamarine Pacers court that we were debut, you know, the tournament made its debut with.

I think like a sticker or two probably would have done the gist. It's in part because they're also trying to play up like the city jerseys that they all created for this whole occasion. But that part of it is confusing to me as well. because they have these cool new jerseys that everyone's so excited about that they're wearing on these Friday night games specifically. But then the opponent, the visiting team, is not wearing those jerseys. And then I turned on the TV on Saturday and some of the teams are wearing it there.

And so, like, they're sort of related to the tournament, but not. Like, the editor, like, and me is just like my mind is, like, going crazy because, like, there's lack of conformity. There's obviously too many branding cooks in the kitchen over there where they just like they have lost like the touch like there are some legitimately awesome like NBA like every NBA team should have a home and away and a third and like I really do think unless there is like a huge influx of money coming from some part of the world that's buying up all these city additions and it's a huge cash cow for the league like it was like cool three years ago and it was like oh

that's a really sick that that mile high one is cool or whatever you know like but now we have gotten so far field of it that like on it takes me like three or four minutes to figure out who's playing what team i'm just thinking about the schedule makers too who have to juggle you know all the the concert dates at these arenas all the various closures and openings and travel for 30 teams in the league and now they got to think like wait does the visiting team's fourth alternate jersey clash with the nix orange court yeah this is where we are well the jerseys i do want to talk a little bit more about because one of my favorite things of every NBA season now is just the release of these jerseys, if only for the ad copy, which is getting more and more insane as we go along. I think at a certain

point, like around the time when Oregon was like making all these crazy jerseys and then it sprung all these like neon ones in college football. There became this like fad where the jerseys represent something about the area that the team is playing in. And it was like great when it was like a national like treasure or like a statue that's been. in the town for thousands of years. But now they're reaching so hard for this. The point where, Rob, did you know that the Mavs jerseys were supposed to honor Leon Bridges?

Yeah, I think he was a collaborator on it or something, maybe with the design. I saw this. I don't know who Leon Bridges is. And so... He's a soul singer and he would know him probably... Did you watch Big Little Lies? Some of it.

He was featured prominently on. iPods on big little eyes. Okay. I saw that the Mavs... I saw that the Mavs jersey has like a moody gray color. I assumed to reflect the moodiness of Leon Bridges music. Holy shit. I can't believe you just said that because I have the ad copy in front of me.

First of all, they managed to get the pun. It's a bridge from the past to the present, which... Bravo, my friends. And then the next graph literally is the uniform features a dark, moody palette. it. This is to channel the dark, edgy, honest urban music filled with tough times and despair that was explored in the 19th century. However, this music transformed the listeners' hearts with warmth, hope, and inspiration, the genre we know today as the blues. I think they nailed it. So when you look at the Mavs jerseys, Chris, do you think, wow, this is a moody, dark blue song?

It didn't occur to me at all. Honestly, this is hilarious. Well, when I see Luca Donchish, I think the blues. That's my first association. Can I read you one more? Please. You're a man with a passion for ad copy. We all know. I can't wait to fucking, like, not do this job anymore.

So I could just like, break in a ton of money, do a ton of drugs and just like fucking just throw shit against the wall and pretend that it's art. The Lakers, who went a little less formal for theirs, uh, we went with the all black uniform. Because when we first got to L.A., we didn't know who we would be. the only idea of what we could be was the picture we had in our heads when we closed our eyes. Who's the we in this? The Lakers as an organization?

It's you and I, Chris. It's Angelinos. This is true. This is really every L.A. story when you boil it down. And we were extra thoughtful with the purple and black trim detail. The trim goes from purple to black to purple

as a nod to the sky after a California sunset. It's part of the day, day after golden hour, no idea what that phrase means, when you can't help but reflect on what you want and how much further you have to go. This was so obviously done by an out-of-work screenwriter. Who like cornered genie bus at a party and was like, let me just tell you about my vision for the day after golden hour.

Yeah, the day after golden hour. It's golden hour and then it's the sunset after, like, the sun's, The period after Golden Hour where you're reflective about your place in the universe. I'm not going to read the Wizards one, but I will just say that it's based off of ostensibly the 1790 Resident Act allowed by President George Washington.

Wow. Is that true? Yes. To locate a 10 by 10 mile diamond plant of land donated from Maryland and Virginia along the Potomac River to form the New Nations Capitol. Okay. this gets at the underlying problem of these jerseys,

which is every major city in America has like three interesting things about it. And once you get to the fourth and fifth and six things that are supposed to be distinctive, they are not the basis for basketball jerseys. No, you get into fucking plots of land. Yeah. I mean, we've already come up with incredible jerseys. Like the vice jerseys for the heat are some of the best in all of sports. But now we all of a sudden can't use those because we need something new.

then we have these monstrosity heat culture jerseys that we have. Anyway, do you want to talk about the Sixers? Sure, yeah. I mean, there's nothing to talk about. They're just like, that that's the best part about it, is that they are a completely normal basketball team now for the first time that I can remember. Chris, what are you doing with all your time and your mental overhead

now that you don't have to worry about them, like, imploding it every second? You have to understand, man. Like, Sixers beat the Suns yesterday in a game that, was like the platonic ideal of a victory where you're just like, oh, we're winning. They're coming back. No, we won.

That is how you want to feel as an NBA fan. And nothing is more representative of like the newfound, shocking kind of stability of this team than Kelly Ubrae. Because the Sixers, traditionally, over the last like eight years or whatever,

are not a place where players come and get better. Like, they disappear, they forget how to shoot, they sacrifice them their money, they do whatever, like they thought they were going to be the second option and they become the fourth option,

like all these things, but it's rare that you find, like, they go to Philadelphia finishing school and come out like a radically better player. And the UBRE thing is fascinating because this is a guy who's been on five teams and 10 years,

basically. And yeah, it's the honeymoon. I'm sure that there's a lot to come. But he's just like, guys, he's like 75% of what Hardin was. Like, I mean, like, I don't know.

Like, he's, he's really good. And it is, like, obviously this, like, stable platform for him to be like, I know exactly what the coach wants. Yeah. I'm going to do it. In this weird post-hardened moment where there's not a huge pecking order situation,

like, I'm getting my shots. And I think he's also old enough to be like, this is probably my last chance in this league to, like, stick with. with a team for more than a season. And the idea that Philadelphia would be that reclamation project, like, that they would be able to, like, take somebody and be like, I don't think that they've gotten the best out of this dude yet.

We can do it. It's something that I used to associate with San Antonio or with, you know, maybe Oklahoma City or whatever, like teams along the way that seem to be very process-oriented. And ironically, Philly has not been process-oriented. Philly has been, like, this huge roster turnover, trying to find the right guys around Embed. And so there's something really pleasant.

about watching these guys who have basically been kicking around the league, your batons, I mean, he hasn't played yet, but like this collection of players they have around Embed, I do not think as a title contender, but is definitely going to lower my blood pressure. Yeah, I think there's a lot of beneficiaries

of the kind of more democratic way they're running their offense. Ubre is one of them. Maxi is obviously one of them, Tobias Harris, one of them. Your mental health, clearly one of them. We're all for all those things, but UBray in particular,

they just so much needed someone who could soak up usage, right? Who could just take some of these shots because whatever you may like about Nick Batum and Rob Covington and even some of the role players that they had previously, they don't really play anymore, that Daniel House kind of types,

PJ Tucker types, those are not guys who are going to press and take shots who are going to go off for 16 to 20 points on a night where you don't expect it. And that Ubre has that in him on a nightly basis, I think is hugely important for them. I think it's funny and appropriate that even,

even during this Tobias Harris Renaissance that we're going through that Kelly Ubra is still taking more that Kelly Ubray is still taking more shots than him it's like there are shots available he's going to take them this is the Jordan Clarkson Utah role they're just like if you're on the floor this is what we want you to do

and that actually gets to like I was uh I wouldn't say I was ever Nick I was a agnostic about Nick Nurse I mean obviously he won the title but like that has a lot to do with Kauai I've heard, you know, people smarter than me about, like, the tactical side of basketball, lawed him, but it also seemed like he left Toronto with a bunch of guys being like, I'm happy to have a new coach, right? Like, so maybe he burned some dudes out. But after 10 years

of Brett Brown and Doc Rivers, with all due respect, it is really interesting to see somebody who is trying a lot of different things and is obviously trying a lot of different things that there's rotation and has already improved two of the three-star players that the Sixers still had in Maxie and Tobias in just five games. Now, that's a really small sample size. Everybody can come back down to Earth, but that is music to the ears of Sixers fans.

It's just to have like a stable, now four-in-one team who have not really beaten anybody particularly great yet. But honestly, you beat who's in front of you. And they got the Celtics on Wednesday and we'll see where we're at. Yeah. Ubre would not have had an opportunity to do this on former versions of the Sixers.

Tobias Harris clearly did not have an opportunity to do this on former versions of the Sixers, which I'm just glad we let Tobias off the leash. He's not a system player. He is the system, and I'm here for all of it. Tobias was bawling out yesterday. Tobias had, like, there was one fast break where it was like Tobias had, like, KD, basically,

between him and the rim, and he was just like, I'm going right by this guy. And, like, KD is not Rodman, but, like, it was interesting to watch the Sixers just go right at the Suns, who obviously are dragging around the team that it's not the team that they were promised right now. But Tobias being able to take advantage of that is big, right? If he gets Grayson Allen on him in the post, the Sixers will now post him up. In transition, as you're saying, just because he's not incredibly fast, but he's so big and

he doesn't lose his mind with a live dribble, he's going to get inside and score a lot. this season already, Tobias Harris is getting more shots in the restricted area than James Harden did last season. This is just a more downhill team. It's a team that plays with a different pace, like more at a maxi pace than a hardened pace. Joel is still putting up MVP numbers, and yet they have all this stuff clicking for them. I think Nick Ners deserves a lot of credit for macro stuff, for micro stuff. I agree that he's kind of on that like Tom Tibado-esque expiration date around year three or four. things start to get a little testy,

but the early days are really good. And you can even look at stuff like, you know, when Pat Beverly was on the floor, he's guarding Kevin Durant and Rob Covington is playing help. Like, that's just a guy who like understands

what those players do well. He's watched some tape, yeah, right. He's crunched the hell out of that tape. Can I just say also, Justin, you know, they did some uniform shenanigans yesterday at the end of the sun. So for whatever reason,

I thought we had moved past this after the bubble, but the entire coach staff of Nick Nurse decided to wear bright red like, you know, quarter zips on top of black pants. And it looked like Santa and his elves because Nick Nurse has like a 12 person staff. So at the end of the bench,

there's just like all these guys wearing red quarter zips, like standing sitting like uncomfortably in chairs. Were they Nick Nurse branded? That's the next step. Right. God, why is Nick Nurse not the jersey sponsor for the Philadelphia 70s? Sixers. That would be really funny. That's free money right there. Yeah. I mean, the vibes are just incredible with the Sixers right now. Like, it kind of reminds me of like when you have a long

relationship and you break up and you start reconnecting with friends you haven't seen a lot of. It's like, you know who makes me laugh Tobias Harris? And you know, it's like, it's really, what a guy. It's really nice to go to the mall with Paul Reed and like pick out some distressed jeans, you know? Like, there's just like, it's so low stakes and like it seems like everyone gets along. I wonder how long that's going to last. And I guess, Chris, that's the question for you is like, how much is this going to be fun until your eyes start wandering to the next superstar that Daryl can maybe go out and get? I mean, I don't really know what superstar that is. And I don't know if this team is really, if this team is the third team in the Eastern Conference, the third best team

in the Eastern Conference or something like that, I do not think that Zach Levine is going to make them the second or the first best team in the Eastern Conference. So, if, Embedee is patient and Embeddy's like, this is where I want to be. And we go into next season with a ton of cap room. And there's a bunch of draft picks that they can use to trade for disgruntled stars because it's not the most dazzling free agent class. Or at least it's not one where I think that a lot of guys are going to be like Philly is my first stop. I think that that's like that's the ideal right there is like the idea that this is more

of like a two year team rather than a this year team. And in the meantime, how about just not having every single question lobbed at your new coach your breakout guard or your MVP be, what do you think about James? What do you think James is thinking right now? What do you think James is doing right now? Do you want James back? Do you want James to leave?

Like that stuff is being in the rearview mirror is so much of a relief that I will take maybe a little bit of a lowered expectation. And also, there's a little bit of why not us to it. You know, like there is a little bit of like, hey, I know it's the Raptors twice, a busted up Sun's team, you know, like a close bucks game,

but like they could just keep winning. You know, like that also might happen. We're going to talk about the Mavericks. That's kind of been what they've done this season. Yeah, and I think the Why Not Us gets amplified when the Sixers are playing this way when Joel is off the floor. Like the signature thing about the win you were talking about Chris with the Sons and how like low pressure it was, Joel didn't even have to come back in the fourth quarter. Like this has never been a thing he's experienced in Philly where the team can actually hold leads and build leads when he's out of the game.

And if they continue to do that and that's going to ride with Kelly Ubrey, shooting and whether Maxie can keep this up over 82 and all that kind of stuff. But if those things hold in any meaningful way, that's a relief. Like that is pressure off his shoulders in a way that means something. But you know, like I actually think Daryl is probably best suited to fill in the gaps of this team with like marginal moves, maybe better than anyone. Like he's kind of gotten away from what made him such a good GM when he was like just starting out with the Rockets, which was basically finding the hidden gems, finding the Daniel houses, getting Kelly on a veteran minimum and basically rehabbing him and giving him an opportunity to play this role

that he's on. It's like, it's almost like he was like doing too many big, he got foisted into the big budget movie like sort of system when he's actually probably best on, on independent movies. And I also think that's the type of team and GM and style that I think fans are most likely to gravitate toward. Like I care more about the guy, the Austin Reeves ties who came out of nowhere, but I've been tracking him since he was playing five minutes a game and like, look at him now just thriving. Like, I could see why there would be much more of an emotional attachment to this team and more interest in this team, quite frankly,

than, like, sludging through the James Hardin fiasco. Yeah, and maybe it was like, Horry needed to get the Hardin thing out of his system. Because I think, like, Mori is still probably better than most GMs who could have that job. So I would rather he not lose his gig over the Harden debacle. And that's what it was. But, like, now that he has that out of his system and he can't train. for him again, you know? Although I guess never say never.

But like presumably that whole thing is over. Okay, so like what are you going to do now? Like what's your next move? And that's like giving Daryl that kind of carte blanche with like some assets to play with, some expirings to play with and that keen eye for like this is the dude that we need for this role right now. And if he's got a coach that he's in like pretty close communication with, like and he and nurse have this preexisting relationship going back to G.

league stuff. Like, I think there's a lot of room to grow there. I just didn't think we were going to get to Daryl Morey as like Chloe Zhao Zhao, you know, like get him out of the Marvel machine. Yeah, he just had to make the Eternals. And now he's going to. Okay, before we go here, I want to talk about the Mavericks quickly because leading into Friday night, they were four and O.

It seemed like they might be the big surprise of the early season in the NBA. Unfortunately, they ran into a giant Serbian. who can just do magic on a basketball court. Chris, what do you think about the Mavericks as currently constructed? Because I think, like, I personally was a little optimistic about this team. If only because they'd risen the floor, if only because they'd risen the floor of some of the role players around Luca in order for him to do his sort of magic. Do you see this type of team as a type of team that could ultimately push a Denver,

or are they going to land in somewhere in between in the middle and the west? it didn't seem like that they could push at Denver but I have to say I would love seven games of that I know that that is like a cliche at this point like give me more of that but like just the amount

of energy and emotion that was on display in that game made me feel like this is like a rivalry that could get really really spicy down the line and part of that obviously was just like I think Great Williams was brought to Dallas primarily to distract from how

annoying Luca is to watch. So, like, Grant's number one job is to make more of a, like, spectacle of himself than Luca does with refs. And it's kind of working. I was like, Lucas seems pretty happy compared to Grant Williams, who should have gotten, like,

tossed out of three games in that, during the Denver game. I do think, though, that they have, not unlike the Sixers, found a equilibrium by maybe taking a step back talent-wise. It seems like they've kind of been like,

what we need to do is get a bunch of guys in here who know what they're doing and know how to play with Luca and Kyrie. How long the Kyrie is just content to kind of be in third gear and do what he's doing? Like I thought he played well in the fourth quarter against Denver and he seems like maybe pacing himself, but is, you know, still a competent,

competent, I mean, he's Kyrie Irring. He's really good. But I just don't know where he is. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there doesn't seem to be that footprint that he usually has. But yeah, Rob, you would know better than me, obviously. Well, I just, I don't know where the natural space is for Kyrie in that offense. Because, you know, with most teams that have this kind of like two-star system, you know,

you have like your Janus and Dame, right? It's like Janus is doing ideally heavy lifting throughout the game. And then Dame is kind of closing it out for you. Maybe you want Kyrie in that closer role, but honestly, Luca's just better at it. Like, he's just going to take it from him. He's not going to relent that role. No, and you could see in this game against Denver,

like, Kyrie trying to, he's trying to pick his spots as best he can. He's trying to play off to the side and play off of Luca. But then you get possessions like he gets a one-on-two fast break in transition, and he's just going to go for it and airball a layup, like something we don't see Kyrie Irving do very often, that to me represents, like, maybe pushing a little bit, maybe pressing on a situation that in other cases he wouldn't.

But overall, the roster around them makes sense, a way it hasn't in a long time. I don't know where the overall talent level is in Dallas relative to previous seasons, but I do know the collective athleticism is up. The collective feel for the game is up. And to me, those are the things that make you an actual high upside team and not just a fake

interesting team. Not just like, oh, they have Luca. Luca could go for a 30 point triple double and therefore they're dangerous. It's like, Derek Lively could beat you in this game. Josh Green could beat you in this game. Their starting lineup hasn't really worked yet, but most other combinations of their guys are looking pretty good. Yeah, they're deeper than I can ever remember a Luka team ever being.

I think that matters because, like, as we're seeing with some of these top heavy teams, they're trying to aggregate stars, just making it through the regular season, getting a good seed in the playoffs has been proven way more difficult, especially in the West, which is looking mighty fierce to the point where, like, a team like Dallas might end up in the play in where they could easily be a top four seed maybe in the east. But like you guys, like Kyrie just felt so insomely. in all the games that I've watched thus far.

And I think it's actually an interesting question, not only in terms of roster building, but roster building for the Mavs specifically, because they have defaulted to a Kyrie type with a Spencer Dinwiddie, a secondary playmaker who could theoretically run the second unit. You could stagger them, yada, yada, yada. I do wonder, though, like,

when it gets down to it in crunch time, would you rather just more of a role player who could play more of a defensive role than Kyrie? Or, like, Rob, do you think, like, having the juice when Luca does pass it, which let's be honest, maybe does like two times in the fourth quarter, is it better to just have Kyrie as the safety valve there? No, you can't just play like Dante Xum over Kyrie Irving. If that's what you're proposing.

Like a good 3 and D solid option as opposed to Kyrie. So a player who's not currently on the roster, like more of a role player type is what you're saying. Right. Yes. I see the virtues of it, but I think there is a tremendous value to having Kyrie on the floor,

even if it's as a distraction. I don't agree with the Kenyan Martin proposal that Kyrie Irving is the best player on the Mavericks. Like, that is insane to me. But there are enough players in the league who think that way and who treat Kyrie as a primary, like this is the biggest threat on the floor. We need to guard, we need to face guard this guy

to make sure he doesn't get the ball in crunch time. That's valuable even if he never sees it. And so I think the gravity of Kyrie, the threat as a second side guy, the fact that he is going to hit huge shots at points in this season, he is going to have amazing moments of shot making that, like, Brewera shot making that no one else can do. Those things do pay off. I still think the model overall of those two guys bouncing each other out offensively

is going to work just fine. They're one of the best offenses in the league. I just, like, are they ever going to get enough stops to compete with teams like Denver to compete with the class of the NBA? that's a much bigger question. I don't think we have answers to yet. Yeah, but I also think that there's so many unfinished, like there's so many works in progress in the Western Conference right now

that Dallas just being consistent and Dallas being able to weather a Kyrie injury, a Luca injury, or whatever, rest in, like, be able to go out there with at least one all-MBA caliber player. And then this really competent deep team that surround them with is a lot better off than where, like, the sun's are right now, you know? the sons who are going to have to learn how to play with each other even when they get Beul and Bookerback. For sure. Like the three guys could be on the court together and the first night they could drop 150 and we can be like,

oh, see, super teams work. But there's something kind of funny going on this season where I'm just like, I kind of wonder whether or not there's like a, hey, why don't we take a step back to take a step forward? Like it would be better if we were a little bit more evenly distributed across this roster, especially for the regular season. And even though it wins the, it wins the headline and it wins the new cycle to like, like accumulate this much top-end talent. Like, I say from experience, like,

it's much less stressful, honestly. You know what I mean? Like once you, and it's more and more that, like, what you're looking at, I think, with these marriages between like your Janus's and your dames and your

Katie and Beal and Booker or, I mean, take your pick, like the new, the newly constructed clippers. This is like, there's just like a lot of chemistry that needs to be fixed there

and a lot of stuff that needs to be ironed out in real time. Whereas like, when you have one or two stars with a bunch of role players, yeah, maybe the ceiling's a little bit lower, but Justin, do your point, the floor is much higher?

That could be the kind of thing that we talk about this way in November, and we talk about a very different way in January, right? When those teams have a chance to actually play and get their feet under them, maybe they look dramatically different. And some of that's individual players,

like guys like Dame Lillard, for example, it's not a coincidence that every January, we're talking about the eight-game stretch where he scored like 45 points a game, right? Like, some guys just peek at different stages. And I suspect with a lot of those super teams, we're going to think pretty differently about them later in the season. The question is for the Philly type teams,

the Dallas type teams who are on the other end of this, can they sustain? Can they sustain and keep building off of this early success, this early chemistry? And I think both of those formulas for those two teams are strong enough that they could. Yeah. And then you had the Lakers who went for the floor raising

and then got nothing of either sort of build. Right. But I think if you look at the teams in the finals last season, and I would rather have two stars and a deep team than I would three stars and Drew Eubanks. Yeah. And unfortunately for most of the league,

the Nuggets have both of those things. They have continuity and they have like a clear-cut best player in the league. And they have God. I love this part of our podcast every week now where Justin has to come to his senses about the Denver Nuggets and reluctantly admit that they're just rolling over basically everybody. Rob, you are hunting for a social breakout right there.

Yes. That's true. I'm not going to take the thing. But I did pick them for the NBA finals. I will just point that out. Turn the TikTok camera on, Jack. All right. Why don't we wrap it there?

Chris, thank you for joining us. My pleasure. Thank you to Jack Sanders on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back next week. I think on Wednesday we'll do a little what's real, what's not in the NBA so far. We'll see what.