The Ringer NBA Show - The Raptors Reset and More Playoffs With Kevin O'Connor (Ep. 108)

Episode Date: May 9, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss Kyle Lowry's likely exit from Toronto (5:00), LeBron's demoralizing dominance (15:00), reasons to blow up teams with stars (25:00), Paul George's trade value (35:00), Wizards-Celtics (46:00), and the Rockets without Nene (54:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Enter the promo code Ringer NBA. Seat Geek will send you $20 once you've made your first ticket purchase. Download the Seatgeek app and enter the promo code Ringer NBA today. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.k.a. Blow it up.

Blow it up. A.k.a. Senior TNT, aka Dr. T.N.K.A. Dr. Explosive, aka Kevin Obama. Kevin Obama joining me on the show. Blow it up. That's a way better intro than you. you've ever given me, Chris. That was amazing.

You're welcome. So, here we go. Before we get into blowing up everybody not named the Cavaliers and the Golden State Warriors, let's talk about where all these series are right now. Golden State took care of business against Utah last night. Draman had

a triple double. Kevin, this was whatever the opposite of competition is, that's what we are getting in these NBA playoffs. And this was the most stark example. The Warriors were up by 20 or more points in 67 postseason minutes. They have been trailing for 56.

So they have spent 11 more minutes up by 20 points against their opponents than they have being down. What do we make of what took place between Golden State and Utah? Was that more about Golden State or more about the Jazz? What do you think? Just boring. That's what I make of it, man. Just boring. boring

like you you could be a fan like a hardcore NBA fan and you could be okay with not watching any of those first eight gold state Warriors playoff games because really like we're just waiting for the next round whether it's the Rockets of the Spurs who can be a true challenger to them and then after that

even then it could still be a sweep next round for that matter I just think you know it's more about the Warriors they have you know a borderline unstoppable roster four superstars who, you know, they can keep two of them on the floor at all times if they want to. It's all about them.

I mean, Utah's got a really, really good team, but it just shows how far separated everybody else is from the Golden State Warriors. And in many ways, it's amazing to watch. It's remarkable, really. In other ways, it's just kind of like, why bother tuning in last night? Okay. First things first, the fallout, I mean, right after the game, I even tweeted this, like, Sport Illustrated was like,

and the Warriors had beaten the jazz and did the Gordon Hayward's a free agent this summer. Did the Jazz just say goodbye to their franchise player? And I was like, damn, man, will you at least let them like handle the loss? Like if you're a real fan, you go through 82 games of living and dying with a team. And then you go to the playoffs. And this is the best jazz season in a long, long time. And it's like the buzzer sounds. And it's like, hey, your favorite player and your best guy may be going somewhere else.

like, geez, Louise, man, can I, can I just, can I just be upset about the season ending for a second before I got to think about maybe Gordon Hayward going somewhere else? What do you think? Do you think the way that that played out affects whether Gordon Hayward stays in Utah or not? I have a hard time, you know, with Hayward because I think, I think Utah is clearly, like, one of the best destinations for him. Like, you know, it's, it's obvious why staying in Utah makes a whole lot of. of sense. They have a terrific roster there with the ability to get better. They can still resign

Hayward and retain cap space in the future. They could get better. But at the same time, if you're Gordon Hayward, maybe you still feel the pole, you know, with your relationship with Brad Stevens. I've been reading recently. People say, oh, Gordon Hayward's been coached more years by Quinn Snyder than he's been coached by Brad Stevens. And it's like, yeah, but he has a longer human relationship with Brad Stevens that goes back to high school when he was going to They've known each other for years. And so I wonder, maybe is that poll, in addition to the fact that, you know, the Eastern Conference has a little bit of an easier path to the Eastern Conference finals, is that more appealing for

Hayward? Maybe. And then there's lifestyle choices. There's family choices. We don't know a damn thing about, you know, what he wants for him and his family as they really enter a new stage of their life. That's something that we can't even begin to speculate about, which I think really will be the factors that end up the decision makers for most free agents not just Gordon Hayward so I think Utah is

appealing but why wouldn't Boston be or like San Antonio for whatever reason they decided to make cap space for him like teams like that that we don't expect in addition to Boston who's obvious there's going to be other options that that appeal to him to okay let me ask you is it a hundred percent no-brainer on the jazz side that you just give him literally the maximum amount of money you can Yeah, I think it's 100% and it's 100% that they get to feed him the ball more next season. I think he can be more. You know, we talked about this before when I wrote the article on Hayward. I think he can do more when he's given more responsibility.

And I think they should give that to him in addition to the money. Why is this not? Let me play devil's advocate to your blow it up stuff, okay? We'll start this early. Why is this not just the way it all begins, the pre-stages of Kevin O'Connor is going to write in, four years that they need to blow it up. That it seems to me that your criterion is having the guy,

if he's not one of the best guys in the world, top five, top ten. And I don't think anybody would argue that Gordon A word's a top ten player right now. That you are locking yourself into your best player, theoretically, especially the guy that you give the most money to, being that level of player, like the George, like the Butler, like the Millsap, whoever you want to say, right? And so if I'm Kevin O'Connor, why don't I just preemptively say, well, hell, I'm not going to be able to win a championship with Gordon Hayward as my best player. So why am I even resigning him to a massive contract? So shout out to Patrick O'Brien, who tweeted something a little bit earlier, you know, kind of, you know, alluding to the same thing.

And that's a totally fair point, Chris. I think, I just think it simply breaks down to this. You know, I said this to Patrick when he tweeted me with it and I'll say it to you, you know, to compare them against the Raptors. The Jazz have a young core. The Raptors have an old core. The Jazz can even retain cap flexibility even after resigning Gordon Hayward. The Raptors can't. It's as simple as that.

That's one of the most important part of the, like the blow-it-up formula, if you want to call it that, is that can you retain cap and asset flexibility and the ability to continue building on top of what you already have? The Raptors are going to be really handcuffed against the cap. If they roll it back with their roster, the Utah Jazz can resign Gordon-Haward. And they won't be. Depending on the other deals they give other players like George Hill and whatnot, they might be against the cap. And then they could potentially be, you know, maybe they're in the conversation

where in a couple of years we are talking about them that they should consider blowing up. But I don't think so. I think that they still have a young core. Their guys aren't into their 30s like Lowry is. Hayward is still in his bid 20s. Rudy O'Ber is still in his low 20s. They have a young team that can continue growing and getting better. And I'm not convinced that Hayward's done getting better either.

He's gotten better every single year of his career. I don't think he's done improving either because a lot of it has to do with responsibility and opportunity. That's why I'm saying they're going to feed him the damn ball. I think he can do more with more responsibility. So I think they have room to grow. And I would not at all. I would be disappointed for them if they lost Gordon Hayward because that team has

growth potential. They're not at the best that they can be right now. It seemed like one of the ways that you were talking about, clearly an attaining an outstanding player was the idea behind just saying, okay, we're going to, and blow it up is obviously extreme, but rebuild, right? We're going to, we're going to take a step back in order to take five steps forward later down the road. But part of the reason or part of the way to do that in the theory that you laid out was by getting a high draft pick. But I just, I wonder if, like when I look up and down, and let's just say the Eastern,

conference, okay? Because you mentioned the Raptors. Let's just say the Eastern Conference. There's 12 players on the All-Star team, not in counting Carmelo Anthony's addition to that team. So there's 12 players on that roster, right? Six of them were lottery picks. Six of them were not.

So the idea, to me, it's about nailing the draft necessarily. And I understand that theoretically you should have a much better chance at getting a better player when you have a lottery pick. But it stands to reason that in the Eastern Conference, Janus was not a lottery pick. Jimmy Butler wasn't a lottery pick. Isaiah Thomas wasn't a lottery pick. Kyle Lowry wasn't a lottery pick. Paul George was on the very fringe.

And then Paul Millsack. He was like 11th or something. Okay, okay. So I take that back. George was. So it would be seven and five. Seven of them were lottery picks. Kyrie, DeRosen, LeBron, Wall, Kevin.

love, Kimball Walker. And then the other ones weren't. So even if I look at who were deemed the best players in the conference this past year, you know, half of them weren't taken in the lottery. So that's the other thing, right? It's so I think it, if the idea is to get a great, great player, it's hard to convince me that your percentages go up exponentially. by, that it's worth the risk of being really crappy because what we're finding is that

there's a lot of players that aren't drafted in the lottery that become the great players now. And I don't know if that was always so. And I don't know if people have gotten worse at drafting or what, but that's true, right? Okay. So a lot of those players you listed, so, you know, of those teams and of those players, I don't think all of those teams should blow it up. I don't. Like I mentioned in the article yesterday on the Ringer that, you know, there's teams, like I said with Utah Jazz, if they have growth potential, if they have caps based draft picks, whatever else, if they retain flexibility, those teams shouldn't blow it up.

There are only six teams that I think should blow it up or should have blown it up in the NBA. And the thing is, is like one of my main points, you know, with the Toronto Raptors is with the roster that they would have if they resign everybody, which they won't, Masai Ujiri said this morning at his press conference, like right before we got on. this that it's not realistic to bring back all the free agents. That's one thing he said today. And he mentioned needing a culture reset, looking at the, that the style of play needs a reset. And I think he, I think what he said today really backs up a lot of what I wrote two months ago in March with that article. But my point is, it's kind of, you know, bring this back to your question, is my thing is, it's like, you're not going to win a championship when DeMara de Rose or Kyle Lowry is your best player. I want to trade up from those guys.

I want to swing from, you know, a second tiered player to a first tier player, and they're 100% right, Chris. There are no damn guarantees. You could theoretically, if you're the Toronto Raptors, we sign Kyle Lowry, you know, bring everybody back, and then trade them all. And, you know, in January or February, theoretically, you could load up the next few years, get a ton of draft picks and not win the lottery any of those years. That's possible.

That's 100% possible. We've seen what happened with the Sixers. They got that franchise changing player in Joella Bede. and he just happens to unfortunately be an injury prone, injury prone, hopefully that he doesn't stay injury prone, but right now it appears that way. Ben Simmons,

I think he's a level below that, but he does have a chance to become one of those guys. They did it to an extreme level. I don't think teams necessarily need to go that far when I say blow it up. But theoretically, Toronto could load up with picks, and it wouldn't work. But in another world, maybe it does. And maybe you do get that player who sets your team up for the decade of, actual championship contention. And that's all I care about. I don't want to play a basketball game

to lose by four points every time I play. I want to play the game to win, whether it's a single game or a season. I don't care about anything other than championships. Okay, all right. And it amazes me that people do care about less than that. All it matters is winning championships. Making the playoffs like Masayi, Jerry said today. Making the playoffs means nothing. It's all about titles and championships. Okay, that's stupid. But, why is it stupid?

That's all that matters. I don't want to hang division banners. That's stupid. Hanging a division banner is dumb. I'm sure Maasai Jiri looks up at the banners in Toronto. He's like, why are we hanging those stupid-ass things? Because they don't mean anything.

Okay, they mean nothing. You can hang a piece of blank cloth. And it would mean just as much as a division banner. Talk to Toronto fans. Kevin, talk to Toronto fans. I don't know. I don't know.

I think you asked some Toronto fans, they would have been on your side that, yes, the Division of Banner is a sign that we had great success during regular season. It's not about a division. And then there's others who are like, this sucks. Every year we lose in April, May or June. Every year, this sucks. There will be fans who say that too. Because we have some fans.

They need to heed what their star told them, which is, hey, guess what? If we had LeBron James, we would have won two. I mean, wait. hell up, man. You're not winning with him in the conference. It's not happening. So now... Exactly. So blow it up. Blow it up when you still can and build for

three years from now. You're not going to win in the next three years. You're just wasting your damn time. It's all about to love you, man. Everybody in the conference is wasting their time, Kevin. Everybody... No, they're not. If every other team in the Eastern Conference says, you know what to hell with it, we're not going to put out a

competitive product because we can't beat LeBron anyway, where if I'm Toronto, if the bar is we can't beat LeBron, then so be it. All right. But the idea that Toronto could have been, it's possible, the second best team in the conference. Now, they had to draw Cleveland a little bit earlier. And we'll see if Boston or Washington is way more competitive with them. But it's possible that Toronto was the second best team. It's possible that Cleveland is that much better than number two, number three,

and number four in that conference. But this is an entertainment business. You look at it simply as a competitive business. But there are people that have to go to games. There are people that have to watch the product on television. And so the idea that anything short of getting a ring is worthless is just fucking stupid. All of these teams have to be able. You can't just say, hey, we're not going to be able to beat the Warriors.

We're not going to be able to beat them. so we should just abandon whatever we have right now because it's not good enough. That's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying now. Because who cares if we had success, we didn't have ultimate success. Some of the most beloved teams in NBA history were not champions. Teams that we look back at and we go, damn, man, that was fun, whether it is the area in Memphis. When we go back, I saw them honoring the Warriors team with Baron Davis and Stephen Jackson and all of them that won as an 18.

seed years ago. There's some of these teams throughout NBA history that were beloved teams. Those Knicks teams, those guys go back into the garden and people worship them. They didn't win. There's no banner hanging up for their championship that I recall. Is there a Knicks championship banner that I'm missing? Those teams are beloved. They are held up as a great thing that the Celtics team that last night, everybody tuned in for KG. They won one championship. They won't won. That was like... They won a championship.

If they didn't win the championship, it would have been a disappointing error. It would not have been a disappointing era. What do we talk? The disappointing era? Okay. Look, Chris, look, the thing is, is I'm not saying every team should blow it up like Toronto. I've only said that six teams should or could have blown it up.

There are other 24 teams in the league. I'm saying should continue pursuing, you know, their path to greatness. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying the Celtics. should blow it up. I'm not saying the wizard should. I'm not saying the bucks should. Those teams should continue building and trying to make themselves a championship level team. That's the competition. Those are the teams who remember. I'm only handpicking a couple teams based on a long list of prerequisites, you know, that I discussed in the article, but I think should blow it up

and try to have a better, stronger run three years from now. I'm not saying every team should blow it up because they have no hope. Team can be memorable. Raptors fans are going to look back on this era and remember it so fondly the demaraderos, Kyle Lowry era, is one of the best times in Raptors history because they made a strong run. But guess what? It's kind of fizzled out. It really has. No, no, no.

At this point, I think the side of Jerry's word. What I'm arguing with you is the idea that it was worthless. The idea that you don't care about it. It wasn't worthless. It wasn't. But going forward, yeah, it is. That's my argument. It wasn't worthless the last four years.

But it is, but going forward, I think you're just running into a. wall unless you make big time changes. Okay, here's what I would say. Looking forward, looking ahead, looking back, it totally wasn't. It was 100% worth it. And, you know, it'll remember these people have forever. But the next three years, I'll tell you what, if they get bounced three years in a row again, it'll actually be five years in a row because they lost this year and last year versus Cleveland.

If they get bounced by Cleveland, the next three years running back to team, Lowry and DeRosen, fans are going to remember this era fondly, but they're also going to think, shit, man, like maybe we would have been better, you know, pressing the reset button. So when Lowry wasn't 35 years old and DeRosen wasn't into his 30s, we didn't enter another long losing error. And that's the fear. That's the fear. One of the things Masayu Jerry said at the Sloan Sports Analytics Conference that I found fascinating was that, like, you know, you need to think about the now, right? You know, building the team that can be the strongest to win a championship now.

But one of the things that he said, he needs to think about long term. You know, if he ever leaves, you know, his job or you get to let go, he needs to put the team into the best position for sustainable success. long term. That means having young players and building young in the back of the roster. That's one thing he's done a good job at. But I think in order to really set themselves up for that post-Lowrie de Rosen era, which could be here in five years if they bring them back or sooner if they trade them, I think you need to think about big time changes moving forward to set yourself up for longer sustained sex success in the future. Okay, longer sustained sex was even funnier, by the way. I like that better than success.

that you needed to. Is that what I said? I like that much better. That seemed much more. That seemed much more. That seemed much more fun. I'm arguing. I'm arguing.

I don't have to just clip that, clip that those words out. I can't wait to hear that back now. No, you're, Tate, you're leaving that in. So here's the thing. I agree with you on Toronto in the sense that now there is a choice. Now there is a choice to make on Lowry and DeRosen, and running it back with Lowry and DeRosen might be an error.

And certainly with Abaca and Patterson, all these guys that they've got to make decisions on. Their big mistake, by the way, in my opinion, is Carol. That's the big mistake. Possibly Valen-Chutist now that the league's gone the way it has. But the big mistake is Carol. If you had a better player for that money in that spot, I think you could have a different situation.

It is a very difficult proposition for me, though, because the bar is LeBron, right? That's what you're trying to beat right now. And frankly, there's no reason to believe that that's not going to be the case three years from now. He just averaged 35 points. I'm sorry, he scored over 35 points in every game. And you went out in the off season and during the season and tried to get guys that could deal with him like a PJ Tucker. and it just couldn't be dealt with. And so in three years from now, if it's LeBron and Love and Kyrie or whoever,

because free agents are going to want to come there and play with him, then or are not mind being traded there, I still think you're, you know, for a decade, every other team that is building with the idea of trying to beat LeBron. And I don't know how I just, I'm still now at the point where how long does the view have to be where you're thinking, okay, we're going to be able to beat this guy. And so you build the best you can and Toronto now has to make decisions. I am, this is a very, very, very, very hard one for me. I am a way bigger Lowry fan than I am a DeRosen fan. I think you can win with

Kyle Lowry. Kyle's, I think he's 31 and somebody's going to pay him a ton of money, right? I mean, like, you're going to have to ante up if you want to keep him. But I think it would be, it's hard. He just turned 31, to be clear. So you'd have him until what? If you give him five years, good grief. I mean, you're talking about 36. That's not crazy, but diminutive point guard.

It's scary. Typically don't age very well. but I do like him more than DeRosen. I do. I'm higher on him than DeRosen. And I think it's harder to have a shitty team with Kyle Lowry than it is with DeMar DeRosen. That's what I'd say.

And I don't know what you do. DeRosen's tough, man. He can't shoot threes. I just don't know what you do. I don't know what you do if you're Toronto with the Lowry deal. Do you any up for Kyle? So in the article two months ago on the ringer, you know, should the Raptors blow it up or whatever, you know, my thought was like, you know, bring back Lowry and try to make other big moves this summer, you know, using your picks or whatever, you know, maybe you nail it with your, you know, your pick. But if you don't, you go into next season, you know, with the mindset, try to compete. But it's not, you know, you know, in the back of your mind, it's not going to be any different. So really, you're, you're shopping Lowry and DeRosen as soon as, you know, you can in January, February. And that, you know, there's, you know, It's a dirty thing to say, like a delayed sign and trade like that.

You know, if you sign Lowry to a long-term deal, the risk in doing that, however, Chris, is like you're saying. If Lowry does sign that long-term extension with Toronto, if you're another team, maybe you don't want that back. Maybe, maybe, you know, the other team looks at that and they're like, yeah, yeah, we're okay. You know, because a lot of teams have point guards in today's NBA, and maybe they're not so willing to give up assets. For that matter, maybe there's not even a team that's a viable destination. after free agency, because a team that may have been interested in Lowry may have signed another guy or drafted somebody. Maybe you'd be better off, you know, if you're going to blow it up, if you're going to go

that far, maybe you just do it during the summer. You let Lowry Rock or your trade to Rosen. The thing that fascinates me, though, is, you know, from Missai Ujiri's press conference today is that, you know, he mentioned they need kind of a changing style of play. And I think, you know, it's kind of obvious what he's probably talking about here. and what's obvious is the fact that they play a vintage mid-range game in an error where teams are winning by shooting threes and getting layups. And, you know, if you're going to change that, if you're Maasai, how do you do it? Either one of two things need to happen.

Either DeMarta Rosa needs to extend his shooting range all the way from 15 feet to behind the three-point line. He's like a 45% three-point shooter from five to 19 feet. But from outside that range, I believe it's like 26%. I forget the number I tweeted out the other day. around 26%. He needs to replicate his immense success from the low mid-mid range to deep mid-range and three-point range. And so far, you know, nine years into his career, however long it's been, he hasn't done that. He could do it theoretically. Other guys have extended their range late in their careers, but most of them don't. So maybe he's the guy you have to move away from, and maybe it's

retaining Lowry. But even that has risks because of Lowry's age and the fact that he'll be super old by the time he does reach the end of his contract. Never mind the fact that we don't know what DeRosen would return in a trade either. Blowing it up is such a difficult equation. I mean, that's one of the things I kind of clarified in yesterday's article is that, you know, I can easily say Raptor should blow it up. They should blow it up. But it matters what the return on value is. Like what can Ujiri get in return for Lowry if it's a trade? What can he get in return for DeRosen or any of those guys for that matter? That matters and that factors on the equation. Whereas with the Bulls and Pacers with George and Butler, I think they can probably

get a lot for those guys. They are a higher level star than I think Lowry and DeRosen are. Even though, yeah, and De Rosen, I mean, he averaged 26 points a game and he started the All-Star game and still, I think you and I are kind of on the same page, which is, I don't know if somebody's giving you like unprotected lottery and young stars and whatever. And that's kind of what you're, I think that's what you're wanting if you're Indiana or your Chicago for Bullitt. or George, right? You're wanting, you're wanting some kind of great pick, and then you're wanting some other pieces to go with it.

You know what you're going to find? You know what you're going to find, Chris? You're going to find a team that's willing to be you. You're going to find a team that's willing to just be the Raptors. That's what you need to find. And that's a harsh thing to say. But if a team is trading, like, let's say, I don't want to say a team make it sound like a rumor.

But let's just say theoretically, the Orlando. Magic won the draft lottery and they got like the number three pick, right? Let's just say that happened. You would want to target, you know, a team, you know, that has those top five picks and hope one of them is willing to give it up because they're willing to be mediocre to really good, but not great. That's what you need to find. And I don't know if that team exists. I think if you're one of those teams, if you're the magic and you win the lottery, I think if you get that pick, you probably should keep it. I think a lot of those guys at the top of the draft this year have higher overall upside than Doro's. I know the grass is always greener. You know, the probability is that

they don't end up as good of Derozen. But you know what? I think we kind of know who Derozen is at this stage of his career. And I would almost rather play the odds and hope Markell Fultz does pan into that superstar. Oronzo Ball totally transcends the point guard position and becomes the next great passing point guard. Or Jason Taney becomes the league's next great go-to score. I'd rather play those odds, even if it's more significant risk. If I'm one of those teams, rather than trading it for DeRosa. But that's just me. That's just me.

I would really do that. It's really hard because history will tell us you just don't get great return by trading great players. And we're kind of crapping on the Rosen. Is DeRosen a great player? Oh, come on. If you average 26 points a game. Well, I say great. I mean, great.

No. Great player. No. But when you start the All-Star game and average 26 points a game, come on. I mean. Yeah. If the Rosen's doing... I think one of the things is teams wait too long.

Teams wait too long to trade their stars. That's the other part of it. And I think that's why this summer makes sense for Toronto. I think it's a lot easier if you suck. If they wait two years, it's a lot easier if you suck, but it's a lot easier. Well, I mean, listen, I've lived through every different incarnation of this. From the team that should have blown it up to the team that didn't blow it up, to the team that tried to build around the second tier star, I've lived it, man.

Like I was, you know, there was a very young team that was built around. Pau Gasol and Shane Badiye and other young players. And then it morphed into, you know, kind of Jerry West at the time, built some guys around it, brought in some veteran guys, and the team became a playoff team. And then they got swept in the playoffs. And then they got swept in the playoffs again. And then the next year, they got swept in the playoffs with Eddie Jones and Chuckie Atkins and Mike Miller and all these different veteran guys. And then the team was horrible, right?

that that was done and the team was atrocious and pal gasol was the best player on the team i mean you're talking like a 20 win i mean they're they're on pace to be a miserable basketball team much like sacramento in the in the in this in the with the cousins thing and so they looked up and they said all right we suck anyway right so if you suck anyway and you've got an awesome player what does it matter right like you might as well and so they trade a pout and they got absolutely murdered for it on the return they got. Now, as the years went on, clearly Marcusol was great return on that. But Markisal wasn't a lottery pick or anything. They just, I mean, it just hit. And so the same way with Sacramento, I think it's a lot harder when you are pretty good because I, it's one of the things

I was thinking of when I knew we were going to be talking about this on the podcast. What if for a decade, Mark Cuban would have just said, it ain't good enough with Dirt Novitsky. It's not. He's not. Now, we look at Dirk differently now, but if we go back in time, and they were a number one seat that got knocked off, and they had a lot of really good teams, and they won 50 plus games over and over and over again.

And anywhere along the way, he could have just said, and while Dirk was considered a top 10, 15 players, the league. He could have just said, it's not good enough. But instead he said, you know what, man, I'm holding on to this guy. And we'll keep building different iterations. And then one year it hit. And they ended up winning the title. And so I wonder, right, if you've got one of those guys, it is just so hard to get them. And so if you are, if you've got Paul George or you've got Jimmy Butler or you've got whoever. And yeah, maybe you're not top tier. Maybe you're not fighting for championships right now.

But you're a lot closer to it if you got one of those guys than if you don't and you're just playing the odds to try to get one. And so anyway, what do you think about that? The idea that for years, the only other team that didn't have what we would consider one of the greatest players ever, forget the Billups thing and that Pistons team. You're talking about either at Shaq or Kobe or you had Duncan or you had LeBron or you had Curry and now,

maybe Durant, that the only other team that's in there that's kind of like the outlier, the one-off, is Dallas. And weren't they in this position several times where they could have gotten rid of Dirk, but instead they held on to them and then finally it broke their way once? I think you're largely making my point in many ways that. Okay. So I think, I think Dirk, Dirk Novitsky is one of those top 50 potentially all-time players. I think he had a case for that before the title.

I don't think that made him into a top 50 NBA all-time player. I think his prime came before that, and that's why you keep a guy like that. Dirk Novitsky are the guys you're trying to find. They're the only players, you know, historically besides that Pistons team, that you're going to win titles with. And those are the players I want to trade up and try to find. But I would tell you, he was not viewed like that.

He was not viewed like that. I know he wasn't. And he definitely wasn't in the draft. He went like, what was it, ninth or tenth, something like that in the draft? Those guys can be found, you know, they're not always number one, number two picks. But oftentimes, if you look historically at each draft, even that Pistons team, they had three top seven picks on their roster. They didn't have a top 50 NBA player or a top five player, but they did have three top seven picks on their, on their, and they're starting five. And with Dirk, he wasn't, he wasn't viewed by that by a lot of people, but he was by.

Others, too, though. If you look 10 years ago, I think you would find that a lot of people looked at him as just kind of the weird big man that can shoot threes. You know, he was different from everybody else in that sense when everybody was still playing inside for the most part. But Dirk still had a case for being that, that, you know, new age center, you know, the new age big man. And I think he, I think by a lot of people, he was considered a potential one of the greatest big men, you know, of this era. And those are the players that you need, man. You mentioned Paul. George and Jimmy Butler, I don't view them on that same level. I don't view them as that guy that you need to keep. I view Jimmy Butler is the guy you potentially need to trade up from. Jimmy Butler isn't going to be your best player on a championship team. Paul George can be, I think. We saw him average like 30 the last month and a half into the playoffs. He can do that, but he hasn't sustained that over the course of a full season. That's always kind of perplexed me in some ways. I wonder if it's, you know, it's one of the knocks with Paul George prior to the draft was that he kind of passive. And I think in a sense, perhaps maybe that's what we even still see now,

that he is a little bit passive and he isn't going to take that next step to that really, you know, next level player. And those are the guys that I want. So if any Indiana, you know, I would have tried to do everything I could to keep Paul George. But I think that time has passed with the threat of the Lakers looming and free agency next year and the fact that they could potentially maximize, you know, an immense return this summer. I think that outweighs the risk of losing Paul George. They've crossed that line, essentially. Then with Jimmy Butler, I just don't view him anywhere near the level of, you know,

Dirk Novitsky as like best player on a championship team. I think Butler's really, really, really, really good, but I don't think he's a great player like Dirk Novitsky. And I think Paul George has that upside, but he hasn't really quite shown it, which I wish he would. I wish we could see that more consistently from him. I just think the goal needs to be finding those guys. Yeah, I know.

with a 10 to 30 pick or you trade up into guys that are no da. No, this guy is a high probability of being that. And you might be right. You might be right in the sense that you can find that. I'm just saying there's a lot of revisionist history that goes on with Dirk. He just, he was the conversation of he can't be that guy until he was.

Right? We do this all the time in sports. You're not the guy. Should that have been the conversation, though? Like 10 years ago, should that have been the conversation? Well, I think we could be. That's my thing. It's like, should people have been asking that?

People ask that question about LeBron. Can LeBron win the big one? Can Alex Rodriguez win a World Series with the Yankees? That's what the questions people ask about. Can Peyton Manning win a Super Bowl? It's like, I don't know. These players are the greatest all-time players. It's their teams.

Like, I don't think a championship necessarily defines a player's greatness. necessarily. Like, in my opinion, I think it's more so the team's responsibility to put that player, you know, in a position where they can elevate to that level. And it's disappointing when guys like Charles Barkley, you know, they don't reach that level. I wish that they could all win titles, but they all aren't fortunate enough to play on those teams that can. And in Dirk, Derek had the wrong structure that worked eventually.

Obviously, the Bulls have done a bad job building around Butler. But here's two things. First, I wonder this. If Rondo doesn't get hurt, it's not implausible that the Bulls go to the finals. East finals, I mean. I mean that. If Rondo doesn't get hurt, I do not think it's implausible that they would have been in the Eastern Conference finals. So I have to take that into consideration.

There's just two games, though, man. Huh? There's just two games, though. We've talked about this like a bunch of times where, like, you know, it's hard to avoid. avoid, you know, falling into the peaks and valleys of team's success and failure, right? But with that, that was just two games. That's just my opinion. I think, I think, I think Chicago would have won the series.

I do. If Rondo doesn't get hurt. I don't, and I don't think that's the hottest take ever. They were up to Zip, teams that are up to Zip win an inordinate amount of times. So the second thing is, on the Paul George thing, it feels like it's gone too far. And yes, Larry Bird is, you know, walking away from it. I think that is a sign that he knows that Paul George thing and that airs over. There's already all the rumors about him wanting to go to L.A., etc., etc.

And so I do think you've got to figure out what you're doing with him and just try to get returned. Because I don't think he wants to resign there in the first place. It doesn't feel like Lowry particularly wants to resign with Toronto and run it back. The interesting one is the Butler one because I don't know what kind of, I don't know if you're going to get good enough return and you still got one of the best players in the league in his prime. And I know they're hamstrung in a lot of ways. But they're not crappy. They're not crappy.

And they could have won. I really think they could have. It's one of those where you can really make mistakes on this because if I'm wrong and they wouldn't have beaten Boston and they would end up, then the pitcher becomes much, much, much clearer. Right. but the fact that I've got that in my mind, that if they would have been Boston, I don't think it's crazy to think they could have won in the next round two. I mean, if you could go back and listen to our podcast after game two

of the Celtics and the Bulls. And you know what everybody was saying? God, man, should have seen this coming. Celtics weren't that good the last couple months of the season. The best guy on the court is Jimmy Butler. You got all this playoff experience. Dwayne Wade is knocking down every. three three, Bobby Portis is killing him,

Miritich is killing him, Paul, uh, what's his dick is killing him, right? I mean, that's what was happening after game two. Paul, what's his dick? What's his name?

Zipser. Paul Zipser. Yeah. I mean, they're killing them. That was good. But that's what, that's what the conversation was after game two of the bull series.

And so that's why I'm a little torn on their situation. Plus, they were so much better in those first two games than they had been and like it was like out of nowhere like wait where did this ball's team? Was that our conversation though Chris? Yes. I feel I recall our conversation like whoa you know we we knew the Celtics you know team wasn't the greatest one thing ever you were done with them you were done no we weren't no we weren't we listen we can listen back to the conversation and the conversation was the same thing I just said to you it was just two games you know we'll see how this goes the rest of the series it can

turn around quickly. And it did turn around quickly. Was that because of Rondo's injury? A big part of it definitely was. That was certainly a big part of it. However, the Celtics also figured things out and, you know, gone into their groove offensively, got into a better groove defensively. So that series changed quickly. And maybe it would have with Rondo. Maybe it wouldn't have. I have no damn idea. We really can't know because it didn't happen. It's just all a big if. But I don't, I don't recall, I remember that conversation that was happening on Twitter and social media and the radio and everything, but I remember our conversation was a little bit hesitant. Like, this might be for real, but maybe it's not.

And, like, maybe let's let another game go by before, you know, we say, Celtics are dead, you know, worst one seed ever, you know, bulls, we underestimated them. I remember us, you know, kind of not taking a side there because it was hard to look at just two games and say, and say otherwise. Think about how, let's just, let's just hypothetical. Rondo doesn't get hurt in the Bulls win that series. think about how much differently we feel about the two franchises and the teams. I know differently.

Zero difference. None. Why would I feel any different about the Bulls? Why would I feel any different about the Celtics? What matters for the Celtics moving forward is the fact that they have max, can create max cap space this summer, and they potentially have the number one pick in the draft. That's what matters. They potentially have the number one pick in the draft next year too.

That's what matters for them. a chance in the Eastern Conference finals and they've got home court. Guess what? Guess what? I guarantee you. I would be willing to bet. I would be willing to bet that if Celtics fans were pulled, would you rather, if you

pulled Celtics fans, would you rather, and tweet me with this? I'm curious to know. Would you rather the team beat the Wizards or get the number one pick in the draft? What would you rather have? But that's not a choice to me. I know, but what I'm saying is I'm arguing in terms of importance and you're saying they're having a chance of the Eastern Conference finals. And what I'm saying is I think a lot of fans would rather have the number one pick.

If it's the fourth pick in the Easter Conference Finals or the one pick in losing the series, those two extremes. But that's not, you're setting up a scenario where you don't have to choose between the two. You can do both. Yeah. Yeah. We're saying up a scenario where Rondo stays healthy when he didn't. It's hypotheticals, man. That's what I'm saying.

In terms of importance. The idea that you wouldn't view the Celtics differently and whether they should, re-up on Isaiah Thomas for a massive deal, extend him in the summer, everything. I still think that. I still think that there's risk in that. The idea that you would not feel, you would not think differently about the Celtics if they would have gotten bounced in the first round by an eight seed versus if they make the Eastern Conference finals.

It's just, it's preposterous. What? What? I don't know if we're, are we talking about bouncing the first, how many games are we talking here. We're talking they get swept by the bulls? Are we talking they go seven versus the Cavaliers? Let's say it plays out. Let's say they win a couple of games. Those nuances matter in like in terms of how I would feel. If they get blown out the next two games and they get swept by the Bulls versus they go seven versus Cleveland, I feel different. But if they,

if they lose seven to the Bulls versus getting swept in Cleveland or whatever, I don't view it that differently. It doesn't really change my evaluation of them going forward. There's still risk in giving a five-year extension to Isaiah Thomas. There's still risk in bringing back the band, you know, with what they have. There's still risk in that, but it doesn't change the fact that the most important pieces on this team is their draft picks. That's the most important part. They are either the money that will get them that star-level player in return through trade

or using the pick or they will end up being, you know, players that you say, damn it, they missed on this guy. And depending on what happens in the lottery and the guys they have opportunities at, depending on what happens with the next year and what pick they get next year's draft in 2018. Those are the picks that I think really changed their franchise more than them winning a series in the 2017 playoffs. I think those are the things that set them up for a title more than anything else that could have happened this round or last round. All right, Kevin, we'll get back to everything after this, but first, a few words from our sponsors. Ringer NBA show today is brought to you by Sacks.

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That's Sacks with two X's for 20% off your first purchase. go to sacks underwear.com slash NBA. All right, we do need to talk about these other two series real quickly. First, Boston and the Wizards, it's game five. All right, both of these, I am a little bit shocked by this, Kevin. When you go to like BPI and you do like what percentage they have to win the series, I was kind of surprised to see Boston is a 63% chance to win the series. And the spurs were 65% chance to win the series.

And I mean, if I had, I know they've got home court advantage right now, but I kind of favor the other two. I've been more impressed, I think, through four games with the Wizards and the Rockets than I have Boston and the Spurs. But who am I to argue with a computer matrix? What do you think about that? That we're best two out of three. They've obviously got home court advantage, but that Boston is a 63. 3% chance to win the series and San Antonio a 65% chance to win the series.

So at one point BPI had the Celtics as a better chance of winning the NBA title over the Cavaliers. Maybe it still does. I don't know what the updated is and that's my response is at one point BPI favored the Celtics over the Cavaliers.

Okay, so we're just crapping on BPI. We give it no credence. I see that's changed now. I pulled it up. 49% for Cavaliers, 29% for Boston. That's more like it. I think that's much more accurate.

It even doesn't go far enough in terms of how much Cleveland should be favored. I just think, you know, it's remarkable how at one point, you know, Celtics were favored over the Cavaliers. This is what it comes down to is San Antonio in Houston, right? It feels like,

and I think the nay-day injury hurts. I actually think if Houston can beat San Antonio, it hurts more in the, the next series against the Warriors than it does right now against San Antonio. That being said, so I do think it is significant that they lost Ney-N-N-A, if they are to play the Warriors. That being said, it's abundantly clear. They're either going to hit a bunch of threes or they're not.

And I thought after game four, which is the one that, I'm sorry, game three, which is the first game in Houston, the one that Spurs won by 11 points. I'm watching that game and I'm watching the Spurs run them off the three points. line. I'm watching them guard the rim well. I'm watching Lamarcus Aldridge look like damn Akeem Elijah on. They're just throwing it in and he has got this. You watch games like that and his talent. It makes you so frustrated that he's not better than he is, even though he is remarkably skilled. But he's getting buckets. And it feels like that lanes open. If they wanted to go hit some jumpers, if they wanted to go hit some little runners that they could do it. But they just, they're

going to live and die playing the way they play. And there's this extreme randomness that is possible when you play like that. And sometimes you mash the team and sometimes you look terrible. I guess the question was always, can they do it four times out of seven times? And so now they've done it twice out of four and there's three games left. And so what do we think? I kind of think they will. I kind of think the Rockets will. They're clearly going to do what they do. And do and it's either going to work or it won't, but I think the Rockets are going to beat them. I said Rockets in five before the series, which was really dumb. That ain't happened.

That was a dumb thing for me to say. Hey, just say Rockets and Six. Yeah, Rockets and Six. There we go. Off by only one game. Only one game. I agree with you, Chris. I think, you know, look, I don't want to say things change.

in game four because things also changed in games two and three, right? You know, things can swing back the other way. I just, you know, I'm fascinated by the series in the sense that, you know, San Antonio is baiting them into mid-range jumpers by staying home on the three-point shooters and by, you know, really packing in, you know, the restricted area. They're baiting them, daring them, double dog daring their rockets into taking mid-range jumpers, and they won't. It's not part of their offensive system. It's just, it's kind of, funny to see this because it's it's so unlike anything we've seen before with the Houston Rockets do, you know, with taking the amount of threes and layups that they do as

compared to every other team. And so San Antonio in some ways might be laying a blueprint defensively. You know what it's like? You know what it felt like? Because, of course, I thought the rockets were going to win. And so I'm sitting there screaming at the screen. Like, will you please just go into the lane and take eight footers? Like, could you do that? Like, this is just stupid. And you know what it felt like? It feels like if we were watching a football game and a team put eight men in the box every time and you just refuse to throw the ball, right?

Like we're not, we know you are going to, you're going to bring everybody up to the line of scrimmage, but we're running it. We don't care. We're running it. That's what we do and we're going to run the ball. And then when it, when the success rate is pathetic, you're like, why wouldn't you just throw them? the ball, right? That's exactly how game three felt. And then you watch game four and it's like, well, I mean, geez, they're either just

going to hit 23s or they're not. And if they do, you're going to have a really tough time beating them. But they're just, they're going to do them. They're going to be what they are. I am surprised. You bring up an interesting point, Chris. I like the eight man in the box analogy there. It's fascinating.

It's just fascinating. Like Hardin will drive and, you know, instinctively he probably, you know, would take that pull-up jumper. That's probably the way he's played his entire life until he got to Houston or until, for that matter, this season to an extreme extent or last year. That's probably instinctively what he knows to do. That's what he probably in some ways maybe wants to do or feels like is instinctively right. But, you know, looking at the analytics of the numbers, their style of play asks their players to, You've not taken mid-range jumpers. Look at their shot charts, and you see little dots from mid-range occasionally.

But for the most part, everything's at the rim. Everything's behind the three-point arc. And that's what they seek out regardless of how the defense plays them. And that's what they got in game four. They got them. They got those open shots. They got open threes, you know, despite the fact St. Antonio was baiting them into taking mid-range jumpers.

They still got the shots that they needed. After watching calmly just make hay from six to 12 feet the entire series, I'm like Hardin's going to destroy these guys because, I mean, if Mike Olin could get there and just that runner is available, that little floater. And of course, he could shoot it with both hands. But if that floater is available, like Beverly can hit that shot and Hardin can hit that shot. And, you know, Gordon, if he gets to 12 feet, he can hit that shot. And they just, they'd rather just jack it up. I don't get it, but whatever.

I'm surprised. I can't blame him, man. It's all about the numbers. I know nothing has been competitive in this series. I think what, the closest game was 11. Was a little surprised to see Houston a five and a half point underdog tonight. I kind of think Houston's going to win tonight. Five and a half?

That's kind of a lot. Right? There's got to be close games coming. There has to be, right? These teams, there has to be, man. And that's one of the big disappointments of this year's playoffs. It's just nothing's been really that close. We've had some good games, you know, Celtics Wizards went to overtime.

That was close. But at the same time, it still ended up, you know, a big differential within the overtime. There wasn't a buzzer beater. And the second round is just really bland, really bland. And I hope the Rockets and Spurs and the Wizards and Celtics can really provide some serious, real, real entertainment for their final three games of the series. I want some buzzer beaters, man. I do too. grind it out overtime games.

And Rocket Spurs would be the best for that just because of their just different styles of play. It's such a remarkable series on paper. How about any game that's in the balance with five minutes left? I take that at that point. Anything that has not been decided by the time we tip off the fourth quarter or by the time that there's five minutes left in the game. But all of these games seemingly are decided by that point. Half of them you can turn off by the time the fourth quarter starts, and the rest of them you can certainly turn off by five minutes left,

and you're not going to miss anything. That being said, you've got the Wizards and Celtics, and they're not going to play game six. This is a long break, is it not? I mean, for them to be playing on a Wednesday after they hadn't played since the weekend, is weird, but whatever. They're going to play game six tomorrow night. And much like I was talking about with the Rockets and the Spurs,

though the Wizards are the underdog right now in that series, it is not a super heavy underdog. And I look at it and go, they're up double digits twice in Boston. And they couldn't extend that momentum or hold on to those leads. But even in game two, it went to overtime. They had two shots to win it. They should have won that game. And it took that 53 out of Isaiah Thomas and that ridiculous fourth quarter in overtime for

them even to get to that. point. After four games, I know the bench is still a big problem. I think the wizards are better than the Celtics. I do. They have the best player in the series, John Wall. I think that matters. I think it's very evenly matched though, Chris. I think one of the things we saw in the first two games of that series is just how much Boston's bench production needs to matter. They need to get an edge over Washington. The Washington's bench is relatively weak, especially compared to Boston, which can be strong. And it was really bad that the last two games in Washington for the Boston Celtics. And that's something that can't happen. Because the wizard's starting five, you know,

you can make arguments that the Celtics are better. But I think there's also a lot of arguments to be made that Washington has a better starting five. And perhaps it's one of the big reasons. It's just an inherent talent, you know, conversation. And that's why they're getting off to big leads early in games. I'm not sure I totally feel that way. I think a lot of it comes down to execution for the Celtics. I think a lot of it comes down to a lot of lack of familiarity with some of the guys. They're putting Gerald Green in the starting five one game than Amir Johnson the next. In some ways, I wonder if you just need to pick something and stick to it. I'd like to see them put Jaylon Brown in the starting five and have a little bit more energy and speed and

athleticism to start off games. I think that could be more helpful, more so than Gerald Green, who can't defend and Amir Johnson who can't move anymore. I think that might be a potential solution for them. I don't know if it'll solve the problem, but it might help. But the big differential for the Celtics needs to come on the bench because Washington in many ways has really closed the gap by making slight tweaks to their rotations, which has allowed their bench to, I think, not have no wall

and no beale on the floor at the same time. Do you think that tomorrow night's game will decide the series? Maybe. I think it's going seven at this point. You do. So no. So no. Not really?

No. So no. You did not. But maybe. But no. I mean, well, then that means you think Boston's going to win. Because you're expecting that Washington's going to win game six at home. Yeah, I think Boston will win the series in seven.

I still give them the edge. I still think they have the better overall team. And usually that team wins. Washington might not. Washington might rise to the occasion. John Wall might keep playing unbelievably. I think a lot of things he's doing for that team go beyond the numbers. He's putting up good numbers, but so much of what he's doing just comes from the pace

and the energy he's playing with. When the something's miss, Wall is just turboing up the floor. It's ridiculous. Well, and let me just say this. Okay, from top to bottom, talent-wise, I think Boston is superior. But there are sometimes where just having the best guy can elevate it the most. and Wall has just been so absurd that I think it is elevated them to the point

where I just think they're better. I do. I think they're starting five is just immense. Now, once you get past that, it's trash, but he's just so good. And I think it's possible we'd just go, he was the best player in this series. And he, you know, he lifted their boat that high.

And the other part of it, you know, for the Celtics, versus the Wizards, The Wizards are getting help from their complimentary guys. I think Otto Porter had a big game for, whereas Evie Bradley's playing hurt. He had a hit pointer. He hasn't been producing. Jay Crowder had a very bad game for the Celtics,

not just offensively, two for nine from the field for six points, but defensively he had some really poor moments on that end as well. Those guys are, you know, we talk about with the wizard's depth, you know, they need help from Otto Porter. They need help from Markeith Morris alongside Wals. Ball and Beal, the Celtics can't get everything from Isaiah Thomas. Earlier, you mentioned he had to score 53 points for them to win in game two. That inherently is a problem when, like we talked about with the Thunder, when everything

needs to come from one player, you need it to be distributed, I think, to sustain success a little bit more so over the course of a series. Because Isaiah, if he scores 53 again, it would be a miracle for the Celtics. If they need him to score 53 again, I think you might be in trouble because he could score 50 in a loss too. Because if he needs to score 50, it means that they're not getting enough from others on the team. And that's really what they need.

He is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin Obama. Go read everything on the ringer.com that Kevin is pooting out about the playoffs as he runs around town with his lighter ready for any team that might take a potential

playoff loss. Blow it up! Anyone that falls short of a championship ring gets flushed down the toilet and their franchise gets lit on fire. It's all, hey man, all about winning titles. I just want to win.

Just want to win, Chris. You speak like somebody that has grown up in Boston, Massachusetts. Just want to win, Chris. Hey, it must be nice. The rest of us have had to enjoy sports our whole lives, not having a damn parade every friggin' spring

for somebody. It's all about, it's all what it's about, Chris. I'm aware. I'm aware. Kevin, we'll catch up with you next week. Thanks, brother. Oh, no, no, no, hold on. One more thing. I listen to your draft podcast. Oh, fall sending. Yeah, yeah. I got to get one more. Let me pull out the AK real quick. I got to get a couple more shots in. I listened to the podcast, the draft podcast. I really liked it. You and Charks, the draft one, right? Thank you. Let me just do a little pet peeve here. Let me do a little pet peeve here. And this is not about you. This is about me and about everybody that covers the NBA. This is what we got to stop doing when it comes to draft analysis, okay?

We got to stop talking about guys can be like Draymond Green. Because being like Draymond Green is, I think, even more rare than being like a super duper star. And we keep on saying this with all of these guys. And I think it in some ways, it devalues the rarity of him. He is elite at almost everything you can do on a basketball court. He is a tweener who's got these freakishly long arms. He had a triple double last night in a closeout game. He had one of the great finals games in history that was only overwhelmed by Cleveland

winning that game seven last year. And I feel like because we don't view him as a super duper top five player in the league star, that the comparisons become easy. Like if we were to say, oh, he can be like Steph Curry. People are like, get the hell out of here. He's not going to be like Steph Curry. But we do it all the time with Dremont. And it's like anybody that doesn't that we don't think is going to be a surefire 10-year superstar.

But he could be like Dremont. And I think it just devalues what he is. I'm guilty of it too, right? But he is. And I think trying to find a Dremond like player is just a fool's errand. I think there's literally one of him. and for whatever reason we feel like he's the attainable type of guy, but he is no more the attainable type of guy than a superstar.

What do you think? I think, I think, you know, to defend, you know, Charks' article on Friday, in many ways what he means is like that player type. I don't think he means that they can become Jermond. He means like that mold of a player. However, I agree with you that, you know, a lot of the stuff out there is like, he can be Draymond. He can be that player.

And it's like the thing that separates Draymond Green is, I said this on yesterday's podcast, is that that dude is an ass kicker, man. A lot of what he does comes down to personality. And I don't think there's many guys in the league who have personality. I think, you know, we make fun of and we knock Draymond Green for some of his dirty plays or some of the things, like wild, crazy things that he says. But I think the other side of that, what kind of relates to that insanity in some ways is that's what makes him just who.

he is as a defensive player. He's a maniac on defense. And that's what makes him so elite in many ways. He's just he is always grinding at 150%. And the guys that we talked about on the podcast yesterday, Jonathan Isaac, O'GN and Obie, those guys can become great defenders

and they can sort of play that role. There are other guys in the league who can do that too. But none of them have Draymond's mind. And Draymond Green's mind is what makes him into the defensive player the year that he is. Kevin, we'll catch up with you next week. Thanks, buddy. Talk soon.

Kevin O'Connor. Thanks for listening to another Ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing. Take a little time. Go give us a rating and review on iTunes. And we will talk to you on Thursday.