The Ringer NBA Show - The Ripple Effects of the KAT Blockbuster Trade, and a Goodbye to Dikembe. Plus, Preseason NBA Power Rankings, Part 2. | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos begin the show with their thoughts on Karl-Anthony Towns getting traded to the Knicks. They discuss how this changes the Knicks' outlook, why the Timberwolves made this deal, and more. Then they share memories and talk about the life of Dikembe Mutombo, who passed away at the age of 58 (34:36). Then they continue their power rankings by discussing teams 25-21. Utah Jazz (39:18) Chicago Bulls (52:48) Toronto Raptors (1:02:18) Atlanta Hawks (1:14:19) Houston Rockets (1:26:59) Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey y'all. Sirot Sohi from The Ringer here, and I wanted to let you guys know about a new show that I'm hosting. The Ringer WNBA show. We're going to be talking about all the biggest personalities, breaking down and analyzing the latest happenings that make the W so fascinating, featuring some of the best guests and experts from around the league. Tap in with us on the brand new Ringer WNBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. To group chat, I am Justin Barrier joining me. As always, Rob Mahoney, Big, Big, was media days taking over the NBA. Trades are a happening. Players are acknowledging the fact that Carl Anthony Towns is a knickerbocker. There are partridges in a pear tree. Let's go. Rob, are you feeling the excitement? I'm feeling it, but I feel like you're coming with the requisite excitement, having just returned from Media Day yourself. Justin Vera, you're a reporter on the

ground. I don't want to just gloss past this monumental achievement in your career today. That's right. We're back. We're sitting in a seat. We're lobbing softball. all questions to NBA players on the dais. I went to Trailblazers Media Day. It was fun to get back in the mix. I'm out here recording this podcast a little later than the day. I have pants on. I'm a full-blown adult now. I'm feeling good. Wise, how are you feeling as things are starting to pick up? Just great, man. It was crazy to be, I was out at the Hollywood Bowl when this trade happened, watching Jungle and my boy Boss opened up for them. Great show. Great venue, Hollywood Bowl. Y-Y-O-B, like, can't beat that.

And legitimately, people were around me reacting to the freaking news that the NICs made a big trade. Like, I was looking around and people looking at their phone, like, oh, my God, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it was just kind of crazy. Like, that's never really happened to me before where I'm, like, in some, like, big public space where a huge NBA trade happened. So that was just, like, cool to, like, experience that. and, you know, the countless conversations I've had

with Nick fans in the past, like, three days of, like, varying degrees of, you know, the stations of grief of, like, Randall was the first guy to get here and make us, like, a serious operation again. And, you know, Dante was so big in the playoffs. And, you know, what are we going to do defense? And blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, and he's Italian. Blah, blah. Then eventually the tech start trickling in. Yeah, we're going to the championship. baby. It's just like clockwork with the Knicks when they make a move similar to this is like mourn the guys that were there that had some success and had some great moments in the garden and then have completely uninhibited, unbound enthusiasm about what's to come.

It's just hilarious. Well, in fairness, Knicks fans will do the we're going to the championship routine when Jericho Sims is the projected starter. So I don't know that a lot has changed. in that regard? 100%. But a lot has changed with the team, Justin.

Like the Knicks are going to be materially different with Kat for better or worse. Yeah. So we're going to have to delay part two of the preseason powering.

So apologies to the jazz fans out there. We'll get to you eventually. But it might be a little bit later in this podcast. First, we have to address the big honking NBA trade that happened

Friday night. So Carl Anthony Towns going from the wolves to the New York Knicker boxer, Drewis Randall, Dante Di Finchenzo, 2025, first round pick

from Detroit, going back to the wolves. This is one of the more fascinating trades that I can remember. Just because of the players involved, because of like the needs on both sides of teams, also because of the timing of it, not only just right before training camps break, but right after both of these teams had pretty historic runs for their franchise for different reasons.

But I'm glad we had a little time to chew on this because I wonder, Rob, if we're over-complicating this, as I was sat back thinking about this over the weekend, I'm like, the Knicks just got Carl Anthony Town for virtually nothing. I know Julius Randall, pretty good player. He's virtually nothing. Well,

Randall, I just feel like that's incredibly disrespectful to all star Julius Randall and important playoff contributor Dante DiVincenzo. Let's just be clear here. You hate Julius Randall. I'm not a fan. As a player. Yeah.

I'm not a fan of his game, but virtually nothing. Like, this isn't, this isn't nothing. In terms of like a return for a multi-time all-star level player who just helped power you to the conference finals was, I would have to say like just the return struck me pretty immediately. So the Julius Randall thing is interesting because he is on the lower end in terms of

guys who make the amount of money that he makes. That's why we can have this discussion about Julius Randall and why this. Like the quality of this trade might be like murky. It's because we all understand that in terms of guys who get legitimate Supermax contracts, Julius Randall is on the lower end of that pecking order. Right. And so this is not, you know, Shea Gilgis Alexander or Luca Donchich on the Supermax. It is not.

It's not that. But we can't like just fudge the fact that this is a. an all-MBA player, multiple-time All-Star, who is going to make a weakness better for the Knicks in terms of spacing on the court, in terms of having a secondary hub that isn't Jaylon Brunson, I was about to say Julie Sprandall, that isn't Jalen Brunson dribbling the hell out of the ball, probing the defense, trying to make something happen. Like, yo, those playoff games, dude, and God bless him, he had some of the greatest Nick playoff games I've ever seen.

That's not a sustainable playoff offense. And bringing towns in absolutely makes that way better. Now, I'm sure we're going to get into the depth issues, the financial implications, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you can't argue that having towns in the center position where, you know, some of the best offensive possessions for the Knicks in the playoffs last year was Hartenstein, who we love, shooting

a push shot from 12 feet. I see nothing wrong with that. Those were like great outcomes for the Knicks playoff offense last season. That's not sustainable, right? And so Towns makes them better in that regard. Obviously, he has his deficiencies and his weaknesses, but we

can't deny that this guy fills an obvious need for this team that has championship aspirations. Yeah, I don't mean to besmirch, Julie Randall too much. I think we actually fall probably in the same sort of space with him, which is not our best favorite player in terms of the way he approaches the game, but at a certain point, you have to appreciate the cold hard production that he's been able to do. And if anything, he looked pretty good in the abbreviated amount of time he had when OG and Anobie was in there.

I thought he could have been pretty good with spacing around him that the Knicks now have. And just having being able to capitalize on what they built there, just having another ball hand or, for instance, next to Jalen Brunson, would have behooved him. But I just think what Towns does to the rest of this team just rounds them out in a way, especially considering what they gave up. I think you do that trade 10 times out of 10, Rob. Do you not agree? I do agree.

Like, I wanted to push back a little on the idea that the guys going to the wolves are like non-entities. Like, those are real NBA players who are going to be meaningful contributors. And to your larger point about how weird this trade is, the idea that we're getting a blockbuster between two contenders is just not something that happened. So the wolves are going to have real basketball stuff to sort out with real players who are coming in and gave up, as you alluded to, as a really important piece of their offense,

what's going to be a really important piece of New York's offense. Also, towns turned out to be a pretty important defensive player for them in combating people like Nicola Yokic. That's something they're going to have to do without. I think for the Knicks, they did need this type of score and creator. Someone else who could do some of the generation you were alluding to us, someone else who could obviously create space.

One of the best shooting bigs in the league who's going to open up, up a lot. And also someone who I think fits as far as covering up his own weaknesses with OG and McHale Bridges, right? Like if you're going to try to build a stable defense with Towns at the five, something the wolves historically had a really hard time doing, this is the way you do it. You have two of the best defensive wings in the league, two incredibly versatile defensive wings where, look, if need be, OG could end up being the guy guarding fives and Towns could end up being the guy guarding select fours. You can play around with the matchups in a way that suits Carl Towns. His game suits the Knicks. All of it should make sense. I think the part that

I'm getting stuck on is less about Carl Anthony Towns as an offensive player or even as a defensive liability and more Carl Anthony Towns as a personality in a Knicks team that has a dramatically different culture that is a totally different approach to the game. And that's the thing I'm wondering about. And I think what's leading to some of the wait and see consternation among us media types is Like, what is this going to look like when you take a very successful and very talented player like Carl Anthony Towns who also can be very erratic, very thin skin, like very hard to place within an ecosystem like this? And you put him into the rough and tumble, run through a wall, play 48 minutes at all cost Nix. I just don't even know what that is. I don't even know what that looks like.

My favorite response to the trade was when Carl Anthony Towns put out just the ellipsies. And then someone replied, this might even have been. fake, but it was like, don't be bringing that bitch shit to the garden next year. And so to me, that kind of does crystallize exactly what you're saying there, though. But I've always assumed that Towns is such a skilled offensive big. I know, like, the whole best shooting big of all time thing got played for jokes. But like, if you look statistically, it's kind of true. He's a near 50, 40, 90 big man who's going to be able to provide space and basically play

five out on that Knicks team, whether or not Josh Hart shoots over his head like he did in the postseason, we'll see. But I just, I look at it for what he's going to be able to do to those wings that you mentioned and what the wings are going to have to do for him. I think offensively, he just allows a lot of those guys the extra space in order to move a little bit more freely. And so for instance, OG and Anobi, a guy you don't necessarily want isolating or attacking all the time. Well, it's like now he could do those bully ball drives against a mismatch because the court is spread. McHale Bridges, if you're worried about him being a secondary playmaker, it's like all of a sudden he has a little bit more space, maybe having Towns as a

release valve, someone to get off of that will help him a little bit. And then I look on the other side, it's like Towns at the five is obviously not an ideal outcome. On the other hand, they have probably one of, if not the best collection of defensive perimeter defenders in the entire league. And like, on the one hand, Towns looked most comfortable defensively as a four next to Rudy Gober. You don't make the Go Bear trade if you feel good about Towns as a five. On the other hand, they were the 13th best defense in the NBA that one year before Gobert where they had Vando next assume in the front court. Different player than OG, all that.

I just think, like, there's enough here offensively to just be average to above average defensively, and you have a pretty goddamn good team, even in the Eastern Conference, which is going to be pretty good wise. Yeah, I agree. And just to get back to the town's personality thing, that's another reason why I like this trade a lot for the Knicks is that he's the, what, seventh most important voice in the locker room after this trade, like after the coach, after Brunson, after Hart. after, like, he doesn't have any credibility in terms of voice.

Yeah. Nobody has to listen to anything he says. After my brain. After Clyde. Like, I'm just saying. After the Bing Bong guy. It's not one of those things where Carl Towns comes in and everything has to, like, happen around Carl Towns and his whims.

Like, he has to come and improve himself, right? Like, he has to come in and fit into an already established culture, which is hilarious to say. but like they've already established who they are and their identity as this sort of, you know, rough and tumble, hard scrabble Tibbs group. Like, I don't think Carl Towns gets to say in this. And I love that personally for the Knicks, right?

Like, I like that idea that his personality is such that, like, yo, bro, you got to get in line. And I think there's some positive to be taken from the last few years in Minnesota where he has very easily, acceded the leadership role in responsibilities to a dude is like six years younger than him, and had no problem with it. And that was it. And I think there's going to be more of that in New York. So I don't really worry about how that sort of places itself with this new team. What I think about

is, yes, I understand the idea that the sort of interior presence and talent that they had last year is basically completely gone when you consider Hartenstein's exit and Mitchell Robinson's bulky foot. But what I would submit to that is the Mavs played the NBA champions in the finals and their interior defense,

which was elite, probably the best in the league, did dick all for them. So that's not how you beat the Boston Celtics. And if that's your goal is beating the Celtics, you're not going to do it because you have the best interior defense in the NBA. And so that's what it feels like the Knicks are doing.

That's what it feels like loading up, even after already having OG Adanobe and say, let's give up the farm to bring in McKell Bridges. It's like, yo, we got to stop Tateman Brown. Right? We got to have people that can switch on to KP. We got to have people that, like, can scramble on defense. We don't need a bunch of rim-protecting bigs

that are going to save us from interior play. And I think another thing is, like, we don't take the Sixers seriously. that's what this trade feels like to me. Indeed is the Trump card though. That's the one team I would be worried about. But I think you're right. I think they actually match up pretty well with all the other teams that are in that

competition in that mix in the East, including the bucks like, you know, like Carl isn't going to be guarding Janus. That's OG's job now. And so like if they could just make that easier for him, especially on the boards, I think like they'll be okay.

Yeah. I want to put all this stuff in its appropriate buckets because them matching up better with the Celtics is a matter of primary. importance. Carl Towns giving the offense more juice and spacing, that is a huge benefit to the team. The fact that this team, I think, can come together defensively to be pretty good, is good enough to put them into the contending race, especially in the East, with the kind of mix of teams at the top there. Everything else we're talking about is more like the thought at the back of your mind. It's the secondary and tertiary and, like, really side effects of this deal,

as we're trying to understand what the ecosystem of the Nix is going to be like and all about, because, yeah, this is going to be a Jalen Brunson team. I think the clarity that they played with in the postseason benefited them and how straightforward it was. Everyone knew exactly what they were supposed to do. And that is going to change a little bit. I agree that Carl Towns doesn't have to be a huge voice in the locker room, but he's going to have to have a huge impact on the court.

And I think most importantly, he's going to have to know what his spots are. And I wouldn't say that's ever been a Carltown strong suit necessarily. He's had great games and great performances, even in this postseason, came up absolutely. absolutely huge in some really critical moments. He also has a hard time knowing when is it his time to bully ball in the post, when is it his time to space out? And on a team where Jalen Brunson, deservingly, has become one of the best players in the

league by dominating the ball, that math can be a little bit murky. Yeah, you would hope just the comfort zone playing back in New York and in the bosom of Leon Rose would have the same effect on him that it did for Jalen Brunson. Like, I think when Jalen Brunson signed that contract, no one expected him. to be this. And I'm still like surprised when he just adds new things and all of a sudden is like on the top 10 of our NBA player rankings. Like he keeps exceeding expectations. I do wonder if that comfort level does it. And I have to give him credit because I have been among the most vocal like people slamming him over the years because he does have that weird squishiness. And we saw that later in the postseason come to bear where he's just like kind of a nonentity. And it's like why is this the case? And it just seems like he he spirals in a certain way or like maybe tries to grip the serial too. tight. He did sacrifice, as was alluded to, to moving aside for Anthony Edwards. He did throw his body around on the perimeter in order to fit next to Rudy Gobert. And so, like, taking that and

almost approach and then just like kind of melding it to what the Knicks have, I think is actually easier than what he probably just left, if only because, like, I, I think he's been under Tibbs. He knows what, what the status about. And he, if anything, he kind of like still rises in the pecking order where he's probably what, 1A, 1B to Brunson now, or like if Brunson's the guy, then it's like Towns and Bridges on the same level. I just always thought that Towns was cut from the same cloth as Anthony Davis. And I thought Davis was behooved by going under LeBron's wing

and being the most talented guy but not the most important. I think Towns could be that in York. And if he is, they're pretty scary to me. They are scary. Like, this is going to work well. I don't want to mince words about like the Knicks are going to be really, really good. of the best teams in the league. The scary part for the Knicks, to the extent that there is one,

is more about some of the culture questions and the fact that by making this deal, which is a deal you make every time, this is a great value proposition, a great talent proposition, you get Carl Anthony Towns when you have the opportunity to do it. They are right up against the second apron. There is nowhere to go. They are hard-capped. This is the team. They will be able to maybe maneuver a tiny, tiny bit around the edges, but this is what you got.

And so the fact that there's no room for error, it does draw a little more attention to some of the stuff on the periphery, right? Because there is... You don't like campaign seventh man is what you're saying? Well, this is the thing. I think they have a very good 6.5 to 7 guys, depending on the health of Mitchell Robinson.

Yes, okay, yeah. So you got, you know, Jalen Brunson, Mikhail Bridges, OG, cat. Great. Josh Hart. Deuce McBride. Yes. I feel confident in all those guys. Yeah.

Mitchell Robinson, if he's able to be and stay healthy, totally fine and feel good about him being in the playoff rotation. Who is the eighth guy? Because right now it is maybe campaign. Campaign, precious at Chua. Give me Donna Cajummit. Landry, he's bad. Oh, yeah, I got one of those texts.

Landry Shamit is going to show you what he's about. I'm like, bro, we've learned this about Aunt Landry Shamit. He's not the one. Yeah, I mean, to me, like, if I'm Boston, I have no respect for the Sixers whatsoever. He's a little rude, but okay. It's Janice and the Bucks who are long in the tooth, but the injury struggles were so incredibly real last year,

but I think the Bucs are going to be pretty good next year. But, like, to me, the Nicks feel like the toughest match, up and it's because they got OG and Obie, man. As bad as Jason Tatum was in the playoffs, I've seen OG and Anobie make him look worse. Like, that's just a fact. It's just true, Rob. Can we

rewind as bad as Jason Tatum looked in the playoffs, dot, dot, dot on his way to an NBA title? What are we doing? I'm just talking about as a scorer. I defended Jason Tatum's record. Wind up where he's like basically doing the worm before he shoots a three-pointer.

Look, it wasn't pretty, but it got the job done ultimately. That's true. So, like, I like the Knicks roster, right? But to me, the biggest problem with the Knicks roster is that it does injure on OGN and Obie's health. And they're paying this guy

$45 million a year and he has to be healthy. If he's not healthy, this whole this whole thing sort of comes completely undone as a championship prospect, in my opinion. Because you no longer have that one guy who's out there,

chasing around the best perimeter players, then guarding Joelle and Bede on your team. Like, what if, and look, his health history is trash. So like, if I'm Boston, I'm like, yo, I'm betting on O.G. Ananovi's Achilles or not Achilles, excuse me, his hamstring or quads or whatever the hell he's muscle he's injuring to not hold up and everything will be completely just fine. I feel like you're just baiting me at this point. This guy's body is trash.

No, it's injury history. The injury history is a physical specimen. The injury history is bad, though. It's not promising. I think Waz is right there. It's weird to come away from the Eastern Conference semifinals where it was pretty much Dante DiVincenzo and then like the popcorn guy who were left on the court

in order to try to fend off the Pacers and be like, you know what we need is a six-player deep team. Like, I hope McHale Bridges can play 82 games like he's done throughout his career. But like, even Towns was an Ironman. Like, he's been hurt here and there over the past couple years. And so, like, playing under a grueling system, as Tibbs does, on the one hand, I feel like this is the ultimate challenge for him. And so he loves this shit as much as possible.

On the other hand, like, this could get pretty dicey pretty quickly. I guess in theory, like in theory, you could maybe trade Achua when he's eligible to because he signed over the offseason. and his contract for something. Maybe someone's interested in Mitchell Robinson if he could stay healthy and show something when he comes back. I don't know, but you're right.

This is like, it's the complete opposite of what the wolves are facing now, Rob's, where it almost feels like they saw an opportunity to build depth and a runway for the future where the Knicks are like, let's do this now. We have an opportunity.

Let's just go for it. Yeah, let's talk about the wolves part of this because the Knicks angle, I understand why this street is happening. Crown Anthony Towns to the Knicks. We've been talking about it for literal years. he is the kind of offensive piece they need. Makes sense.

Swing for a big star, make a run of the title. I get it. If you are the wolves, there is one reason to make this deal. It is because you are scared of Carling Towns's contract and specifically what the impacts of it

will be a year from now. And with that, you've taken a swing on Julius Randall of, as we said, a very talented player who may not be to our tastes, who also, I will say, just does not fit

with the rest of the wolves roster, does not fit what they do well. At all. All the beautiful spacing that you got from playing Cat at the four and making him into a stretch big, best of luck to you getting Julius Randall to succeed in that kind of role because it will not work. He's going to be at the elbows. He's going to be clogging things up. He's going to be taking away driving lanes in a way that I think is a little counterproductive to an offense that was already a little bit stagnant sometimes.

I like Dante DiVincenzo. Again, trading off some of the shooting. You're getting a little more shooting on the wing. I see how he fits there. He certainly can play at two and three with him and Edwards. that can work. There's a version of the wolves that go small now that I think makes even more sense

than it did last season. I just don't know, man. Like, I love Nazreid as much as anybody else. I get the bet on him and the fact that what he did in the playoffs was real. I understand those sorts of justifications, but it was already the kind of fit where you had to walk on a tightrope

to make it work on some nights. And now everything is clunkier and heavier and more stagnant. And what are they going to do with that on offense? Look, if you're a hipster, you love the clap, the cat flexibility, you love the idea that you can let, you can let Julius Randall walk if you feel like it. Hell, you can let Rudy O'Bare walk if you feel like it. You can do whatever you want because why, Rob, your best player is 23. That's what this trade says to me.

This is a team and an organization is like, we have time. Our best guy who we think is going to be generational all. time, you know, all of those things. It's 23 years old. Maybe we could go out in swing four, you know, do another Rudy type deal sometime in the future. Maybe we could fear up cab space. Like, they're just, we're just more flexible and whatever. Like, guess what?

We still have legitimate, you know, Julius Randall, you know, fringe all-star, fringe 13 million, all-N-B-A. But he is that, right? We still got Rudy. We still got Connolly. We still got McDaniels. We still have a viable Western conference contender ostensibly. And we've set ourselves up with more freedom and mobility in terms of roster construction

for the future. You got to like the deal. But you can't do this if your best guy is in 23, right? Like, it's hard to stare into a future, quote, unquote, after the conference finals, man, and be like, you know what? Eh, who cares? Our second best player, let's get rid of them for a guy who, for a guy who, for a guy who like clearly

Rudy Gobert, Jaden McDaniels, and Julius Randall closing a playoff game on offense. That's not a thing. That's not a thing. And so like I'm not mad at them for this. Yeah, I even take,

uh, I slightly disagree with the idea that they're even more flexible or that much more flexible going forward. I think it gives us more of a runway because they chopped up the big old cat contract into two and thus, Like maybe you can make a trade with Randall. Maybe you could make a trade with DeVincenzo. But Randall has a player option for next year.

And if you decide not to retain him, then the money's just gone because you're paying a bunch of money to all these other guys. Gobertair is going to need another contract. Nikola Alexander Walker, going to need another contract. Well, what if he doesn't, though, Justin? Well, that's what I'm saying. It's like, we're saying like they have all these pieces. The results of trading, the result of trading cat is Dante Devenzo and Julius Randall walking out the door? Yeah.

And that's a success. The draft pick. Well, I think that's the most likely scenario is if they don't repack Drandall, that you just let them walk in the off season and you have the ability to resign some of the other guys. I think it's as much a bet on guys like Nas Reed filling enough of the void with towns and getting a very useful another ball handle in their light de Vincenzo. And plus the draft pick, which you could either spin into another young player like they did with Rob Dillinghan in the draft or you could use that to trade for another guy.

but to me this is the type of trade that begets other trades down the road, which is totally fine if you want to build a future for Ant around Ant. He's the guy. Don't worry about anything else. To do that on the precipice of the follow-up season to your conference finals bid, the first one in a very, very, very, very long time is super bizarre. I have to imagine maybe ownership came into play here. Or like, there's an other timeline to this where they're just like,

this is the ultimate fuck you to Carl Anthony Towns in a way that, like, I don't think that they are doing because it would be such a smack in the face. I don't think it's that necessarily. I think the part of it that worries me and that makes me blanche a little bit is the context of them just coming off of this run and having a very successful season

and really looking around the West and saying, okay, the Thunder look really good. The Mavs obviously had an incredible run, but they are subject to the comings and goings of Kyrie Irving's health and who's to say how things would go over a full season there. Maybe you feel like, if you got another chance at them

with Anthony Edwards coming a little further down the developmental curve, that you could get the better of them. I think that would be a fair position for the wolves to take. Denver looks vulnerable. And so why, if you are the wolves, would you look at this opportunity in front of you and say, like,

we don't have the chance we want with the team we just had? Because the problem with that team wasn't that they needed more depth. It was just that they needed a little more experience in those kinds of games. They needed to sort out some of the weirdness of their roster. And I don't think they've done that. They've just made it weirder. Carl Terrence is four years, $220 million left on his deal, guys.

Yep, that's why this deal happens. I don't, I don't, look, I'm, as much as anybody, I never buy the crying poor of these billionaires in quote-unquote small markets. But you can't discount that reality in terms of the wolves' dealings here. It's just like, bro, like, we're getting off of $220 million. to a guy, like we all have accepted just isn't worth that much money, man. And if you think that you can get 75% of that output, you know, for way less money around the edges and the margins, then you go around and do it. But I think that's just what it is.

It's like, yo, he's been here forever. We've ran his course. We had to trade for another $50 million player who plays the guy's same position in the first place, like, I understand, I understand the deal in that term. And, like, you know, there's a lot of people who would say that their championship odds have not been decreased by that much by making this deal. I don't happen to be one of them, but there are people that would make that case. See, I might, if only because I was probably a little bit lower than you guys were on the follow-up for the wolves. I think they were in line to have another very good season,

probably could have threatened to be in the conference finals yet again. The thing is, I thought the difference between them taking the next step was the difference between Anthony Edwards becoming a good playmaker on the rise to being one of the best in the NBA. And that leap I didn't know if he can make in a one-year span. And I do wonder how much that played into the calculus here, because Tim Connolly has been like a Danny Aange to the max style, like, let's just like balls to the walls, do, rip the, rip the bandaid,

rip the cord, whatever idiom you want to throw out there. In a way that, like, I can't believe, like, the Gobert trade was bold enough, but to do that after what the season that they had last year is kind of nuts in a way that, like, I keep thinking it over and over again, like, maybe it was as simple as the money and all that stuff, but, like, maybe he just thinks that they'll get enough out of Nasreed and a bunch of stuff and the depth that you need to get through an NBA season at this point, that it actually, they aren't losing much, even if Julius Randall is just supplementary to what that. they do, even if he isn't closing out games.

And to me, that's like a kind of fascinating gauntlet throwdown if that is indeed their goal here. I think it's possible that Nasri gives you a good amount of what Kat gives you. I just think having both of them is part of what made the wolf so good and the interchangeability of those slots and playing them together at times. But I also love to think, was that this was the level of discourse happening at the Hollywood Bowl, that you were just like looking out over the crowd and you were seeing like a version of Rob yelling at a version of Justin.

Actually, when you think about Nasreys' developmental trajectory, it works. No, it was more like, yo, this is sick. That's right. It's basically the reaction. And yeah, I agree with both of you guys, honestly,

in terms of, you know, maybe Nazre's enough and Julius Randall's enough to cobble together whatever it was that Carl Towns was doing for you. I just think, like, to me,

the most kind of darkly hilarious part about all of this is like talking to some people over there that, you know, had a decent understanding about where they stood with Carl Towns. There was an idea that like if they face planted, Carl Towns was absolutely out of there this summer. Like they were jettisoning that guy with the quickness. The fact that they went to the conference finals and it still happened. They did a handstand and he still got traded out of it. It's like, yeah.

So it's just the nature of the business, man. Yeah. Do you guys look at the title race any differently now or even in the conference divisions? Like, do you think the West is any different than you thought it would be? Do you think the East will be any different? I take the wolves less seriously than I did. Oh, same. I think by a little bit, but same.

And I think Nick's a better position to beat Boston. Yes. And I'm picking them against Boston, but I think they're a better position. to do so between the loss to Indiana and today. Yeah. I don't know that it changes the NICs positioning in the sort of like macro macro sense that much. Like we're going to figure out where to put them later in our power rankings. Does this trade move them?

I don't entirely know. I think there's still kind of a version of the same team, a little bit more dynamic, a little bit more interesting. But they match up with the best team in the East more effectively now and challenge them differently than they did before. That's going to be a new thing for that specific matchup. Yeah, I always thought of them as the first team up should the Celtics falter. Should Christops not be able to give them what they need?

Should Al Horford not be able to come back at his age and plug the hole until Christops is back? I think that's very clearly solidified now. I am very high on the Sixers, but I was also super high on the Knicks at the point where I think I was the only one among us to have them in their top four. And so, like, I was already pretty bullish about what this team could do. I just think, like, it's such a good opportunity for them. I just think they have enough to threaten that. And I do think the Celtics are, are teetering a little bit. The wolves, I kind of have them in the same spot, to be frank.

Like, I don't think this really moves them that much. But, again, I was lower on them, I think, than you guys were going into the season. All right, before we get into the power rankings, just wanted to acknowledge that right before we came on, Cambay Matumbo, tragically passed away at 58 years old, which is just absolutely heartbreaking to see someone such a giant in the game go that soon. I mean, as the older I get, I don't know if you guys feel the same, but like seeing 58 in bold numbers, that's just super young for anybody. Just absolutely one of the giants of, I think, the NBA as we grew up. And also a guy who went on to have just as much of an impact off the court being kind of ambassador for the game

in a way that I think was just as important, if not more important. So incredibly sad. And obviously, shout out to respect to all his family and everybody around him. Absolutely. A legendary humanitarian, a legendary sportsman, honestly, in terms of growing the game and promoting it specifically in Africa, but all around the world, working with all these international organizations to promote getting kids access to facilities, getting kids involved in basketball, giving them an avenue to have the kind of life that he did. On top of the fact that he was an amazing player. And I think what I love about Matumbo so much is that he's one of those guys where in your

mind's eye, when you think about him as a player, I could be thinking of a totally different to Kimi and Matumbo than you might was. Like I may be thinking about anchor for the Sixers, you know, finals run versus you may be thinking about him helping the rockets rattle off like 22 straight wins at 40. You know, like he had such a life in the game and so many lives even within his career. Yeah, I mean, Matumbo for me is like super foundational

as a certain set of guys were. And like, in my minds, I think of these people as like inside stuff people. Whether it's Matumbo, Gary Payton, Sean Camp, Carl Malone, you know, all of these guys from that era, like, that's how, I was introduced to them from trading cards to watching that show to, you know, the NBA on NBC

on Sundays or whatever. That's how I got introduced to them. And then, you know, as we start to get T&T three nights a week and, you know, we just are able to consume more basketball as the years going on. I know it's like hard for a lot of people to understand. It's like where we just watch NBA basketball every single night of the NBA season. That wasn't the case before. There was no league pass.

ESPN and TNT didn't basically have a game on damn near every single night of the week. Like, you basically got dribs and drabs. You got your local team. And then if somebody was in Denver as Mutumba was or Seattle or something like that, you maybe hopefully hope, the hope that they got one of the games of the week.

But he was such an outsized personality that he was in commercials, that he was in, you know, he'd get a dedicated segment on a Michael Jordan little mini-doc. come fly with me. Like he was one of those league personalities. And then, of course, you know,

he was a part of that Denver team that had the big upset against Seattle. That Hawks team that he was a part of with Steve Smith and Mukie Blaylock and those guys were, you know, very fun, charismatic Hawks teams. And then, of course, the one NBA finals of Alan Iverson, he was the anchor of that defense, right?

And so he had so many errors. Like, I even remember his New York Knicks era. Just related to that, man. When I was like 21 years old in my little club rat phase in New York City, the entire, I think it was when he was with the Rockets. The entire Rockets showed up to a club that we was at and Matumbo was seated next to us. And he dapped up our entire crew and chopped it up with us the whole night. I'll never figure he had a three-piece suit on.

We were wearing like ripped jeans and Ed Hardy. and Matumbo had on a three-piece suit and just regaled us the whole night it was just really cool like yeah, Matummo just had so many errors and he's been just like you guys said one of the greatest ambassadors we've ever seen. It's just a tragic,

tragic loss, man. The photo of him clutching the ball after beating the Sonics, absolutely iconic. That will never go away. The finger wag absolutely fucking iconic. And if anything, I would like the Hawks as a tribute to him to be finger wagging or even if that's the jersey,

patch. It should be a goddamn finger wag. Hell yeah. We'll never forget that. So RIP, DeKembe Mutumbo, we'll be back. We're going to take a short break, maybe change up the energy a little bit, and we'll come back with the power rankings. All right. So part two, preseason NBA power rankings. We're moving up from the bottom five to the next five, which if we were to call a tier, if we were to name it, might be the teams that I don't know what to do with.

Is that a editor right there? Yeah. But you know what? You spoke to a fundamental truth. I don't know what to do with a lot of these teams. I don't think they know what to do

with themselves, frankly. So I feel okay being unsettled with their fate and their trajectories because there are a lot of questions to answer. There are a lot of, is this guy actually our future franchise player kind of uncertainties in the air with this group? Thank you for that save.

That was much appreciated. So to me, the teams in this group kind of define our current NBA era to me in terms of the depth of talent in the sense that back in 2011, the sixth-best team in the NBA was horrible, like straight up. Like just a horrible team. You can chalk up a freaking W against these guys so long as one of the teams from the top half of the league was trying that night. And that's just not the case anymore. Like, as bad as we think the jazz can be this year, they could also be a pesky out if they dedicated themselves to being that. And it's just the list of teams that you could say that about in the NBA just was not this long.

Back when, like, you know, we started like really super paying attention to the league, which would have been like, you know, 2010, 2009, whatever the case may be. And so, like, this team in the middle defines that. And this portion defines, it's like, you guys are not going to be good. We can't stamp you into the playoffs, but you're also not going to be as horrible as Portland this year. That's right. And so I think the Jazz, who are number 25 on our list and the first team up here kind of

just like crystallized that entire idea where it almost feels like at times they need to stop themselves from being too good. And I think that came to ahead this offseason when they re-signed Lori Market in. I think that had to be done for a variety of reasons, one of which was like just the way the timing of it was they weren't probably going to get enough of the good offers because then they couldn't resign marketing in order to trade him before the deadline. And then maybe that led to different offers that they would have gotten. So I get that they did that, Rob, but now it's kind of like, now what?

Like, you kind of are who you are. And if anything, this team looks remarkably like last season seemed to the point where like they didn't add many new guys outside of the rookies that they drafted in the first round. No, I think the young guys that they already had will have chances to grow their responsibilities and grow their roles. County George can do more. And the move is not, you know, how do you shoehorn him to a role? But there's something obviously very duplicative with him in Conn Sexton and Jordan Clarkson all being a part of this team. Maybe one of those veterans ultimately ends up getting moved for any variety of trades. I think the jazz have a lot of different directions they can go in. But as you're alluding to as an anchor, they have decent talent. And fundamentally, they have Lowry Marketing and now locked in for the full season. Kenner. not trade him for the remainder of this year, that's a really high-level player to have as the centerpiece of your team, even if it's not one that's going to get you to the playoffs, even if it's not one that's going to bring you some great splendor, it is going to prevent you for being

too, too bad unless you outright shut a guy like Lowry Markin and down. And I think that is the trick with the jazz. They don't have a clear avenue to being worse than the Blazers. I think there's a chance that a team like Charlotte could jump them if Charlotte has a good season and the jazz decide to ease on the break a little bit. But otherwise, this is a lot of. going to be a decent team overall, if I would expect a pretty still embarrassing one on defense. Like, I don't see a way for the Jazz to be a good defensive team, but overall, I think they're going to be okay. So why don't we just get into that right there? Just the essential question that I have down here is who's the prospect to watch on this team. One of the guys I have down, Rob,

is Walker Kessler, who had a bit of a down sophomore season last year. Yeah. Everything there's saying out of Jazz Camp sounds optimistic, though. Sounds like he really worked on his game in his body. and all that. And it's like the type of things that everyone says about every player around this time of year. But I have more hope for a guy like Kessler who looked very good as a rookie and also was playing for Team USA. It seemed like he was on that trajectory to be like a marquee rim protector in the league. Do you see him with an easy path back to that first year? Or is it still a little bit more mixed considering the amount of bigs now that they have in order to jostle for minutes with it? Yeah, I hope he has that kind of rookie performance in him again. he is an anchor for the jazz lineup and their defense more broadly, it changes a lot about

the look of their team. What worries me is that there was no like one thing that went wrong for him last year. It was early season injuries, role uncertainty, getting into his own head about how to operate in space and what exactly he's supposed to do. You could just see him overthinking things a little too much out there and look, no like 22 year old big has it all figured out. But it would help them a lot if he could settle his game in a little bit. And so I'm worried less about did he add a corner three? Did he work on his game in the offseason and more? Can he find his way to a sort of stability within this role?

Because if he can be that five for them, it clears up their starting lineup. It clears up how the shape of the team can and should look. It clears up a lot about how to go about building this team. But if he's not that guy, that that's really putting the jazz behind the eight ball. I think as far as how to construct and even just fill out this front court minute to minute wise as they go through the regular season was. I think what's cool about the jazz and where they stand right now is that they have enough young guys.

And I think Walker Kessler still qualifies as a young guy that they can quote unquote experiment with these things, i.e. even if it's not working, you can still do it. Yeah. The John Collins special? Well, why I say this is because I just saw a clip not too long ago on YouTube with Jeff Teague talking about being on the Hawks when they traded, when they got Trey Young. And he was like, look, they told me they had a guarantee basically 20 minutes a game for me.

No matter how well I played, I was going to get 20 minutes a game because there's this youth movement that they're ushering in. And I wonder if that's the approach to jazz would take. It feels like that hasn't felt like the Will Hurst. party approach since he's been there. Like, he's a guy that's trying to win it all costs and he's not just giving young guys, you know, pity minutes or charity minutes. But I wonder, you know, where it's like, all right, guys, like at some point, don't you

need a top three pick? At some point, don't you have to bring in some blue chip level talent into this team to take a step towards, you know, ultimate contention? And, like, how else are you going to do that if you're not doing it through the draft? So I'm just fascinated to see the, you know, the mechanisms by which they achieve that. You know, is it going to be a Lowry, like, yeah, oh, we're load managing the guy. He doesn't need to play 82 games this year, blah, blah, blah. Is it a youth movement?

I'm interested to see how they carry that burden because they do need a good pick, no? Am I crazy to think that? No, I definitely think they do. And I think if you were to ask Danny Aange and some of the guys behind the scenes, they would probably agree with that, which has been so tough to, like, kind of reconcile this team where it's almost like they acknowledge that they need to be worse, but they can't help themselves, but be pretty competent. I think Markinen speaks to that most, first and foremost, but also Will Hardy, the fact that, like, I think he has been able to scheme their way to

victories that they probably shouldn't have, one, they picked up his fifth-year option, which is in 26, 27, just to show what a good job he's been doing. He's also younger, than all three of us, which is fucking depressing. That's amazing. Why do you have to say that? Why do you have to put it that way? It's just really tough. But here we are talking on a podcast about his prospects at he and here.

So we were living our best lives. Equally celebrated, I would think. Totally. But do any of these one prospects, Rob, in addition to Kessler, like catch your eye or you're like, oh, that's the guy I'm watching here? I mean, I'm watching all the guys. I have already... Of course, you're doing the work.

I have waxed extensively about Taylor Hendricks, who I do think is a guy, a guy who's coming along, still raw, but I think he will be a very good defender. And he has the kind of like size and athletic pop that this jazz team really needs in space. Also, as someone who admittedly, I'm not tuning into Pac-12 basketball.

I'm looking forward to getting to know Cody Williams and his game a little bit better. I have hopes based on what I've been told, based on what I understand about him, like big, rangy wing type who can make plays and work in space, that certainly seems like a Will Hardy player to me. Could he be less athletic Jalen Johnson?

Can he be a sort of connective tissue for this team that makes some of their guards make sense, that make some of the lineups make sense? Waz is right that Will Hardy has not been exactly handing out minutes like party favors to the young players on this team, but maybe there's a way to get him into some opportunity. And frankly, when you look at the front,

court, there's a lot of question marks as to who should be filling what roles, both starting and coming off the bench, in a way where if Cody Williams has a good camp, if he has a good preseason, he might find his way into some even early season minutes. Do you think he has that dog in him in the way that his brother Jalen does? I would like to think that dog is a family trade. Do we know if it's dominant or recessive? I don't. We'll have to ask him. Was, what guy are you, what do you have your eye on? I like Collier for two reasons. One, he's coming out of a completely horrible and bad shit situation at USC, which was just a mess. And they just didn't get out of the talent that they attracted over there, what they should have.

And two, because of what Will Hardy has done with guys who play a similar role as him in terms of Colin Sexton and Jordan Clarkson, right? Like these tweener kind of guards, they're not exactly ones. They're not big enough to be twos. but have talent and have ability. I would love to, I just love to see what Will Hardy's able to coach up out of that kid because he's a very, like, highly pedigreeed prospect, right? He's been at the top of these freaking recruitment boards since it feels like he was like 14 years old, right?

And so to get a guy with that level of pedigree in a situation with a coach who's gotten stuff out of similar guys before, I think that's something that's interesting to watch. It feels instructive that the naming some guys segment for the jazz is just all the segments. Yes. Yeah. They're nine guards. We didn't even talk about Keonté George, who was actually the guy I had on my list.

One of the most fascinating rookie seasons had three 30-point games, followed it up in Summer League by scoring averaging 30.5 points over two games. So clearly too good for Summer League. He also shot 39% from the floor last year, which is the second worst in the NBA. He might be my favorite player in the league as a result. Classic like, he's a bucket. But how do we utilize that? And it's tough because there's a lot of players that fall into that void. Jordan Clarkson, first and foremost, who also wasn't that much better on the field goal percentage leaderboard last year, just to point that out.

And so on the one hand, the jazz had been very good at utilizing. these players kind of unearthing something about them. Colin Sexton, prime example of that. We thought he was probably more of an energy score. We didn't know what to make of him. Really seems to have re-rided his career under Hardy. So I like George. I don't know what he is right now.

But I think, like, if anything, they should be leaning more into him than maybe some of the veterans that we've already mentioned. I think they will. And with him, I think the big step is going to be, you mentioned like, what do we do as the jazz with a player like that? I think he's still figuring out what to do with his talents and with his skill.

And really in particular, he can get to his spots. He's already a pretty decent pick and roll player. Feels pretty comfortable. Getting into a mid-range jumper, getting into a floater, has a nice in-between game, all those things are true. But what is he doing to make defenses uncomfortable? What is he doing to twist up the kind of principles of their system and make them, force them into compromises, make them make the rotations they don't want to make?

He hasn't really been able to do that yet. And so that's kind of the key if you're going to be a lead ball handler type is how do you actually carry offense in that role. And he's shown more of an ability to get his and get buckets than necessarily do that. I would love to see some growth in that regard from him this season. Will Hardy, man, take the reins off. Let this guy cook. Any other guys we need to mention?

I feel like we've mentioned their entire roster. Drew Eubanks, perhaps, Rob. If we must. They did bring in Patty Mills, who is not an impact player anymore, but just a tremendous vibes addition for a team that is going to be stuck in the middle. So you could do worse as a hang than, signing Patty Mills. Okay.

All right. Number 24, the Chicago Bulls. I have to say, I can't remember a single team that's done so much to change the calculus of their franchise and their roster. And yet, I don't think any differently about them. If anything, they're exactly where I would have put them in their previous iteration. Josh Giddy's in. All these other guys, Lonzo Ball might be playing basketball again.

DeMarter Rosenz. Can he stand on one leg yet? I have no idea. You sound like you've just come back from Bulls Media Day. That's what you sound like. The Kool-Aid has been served to Justin Barrier. No, but I just don't know what to make of them because they're rebuilding, but they're also doing it from the middle, kind of.

And so that's where they find themselves number of 24 in our rankings. I'm just fascinated by a team that watched OKC play in the playoffs last year. and said to themselves, let's make this to Josh Giddy show. I believe. I'm going to say it. You believe in the Josh Giddy show? I do.

Well, to a certain extent. Exactly, yeah. I do think the playoffs kind of warped the perception of what was otherwise a fairly good start to an NBA career. I think the thunder just had the luxury of being so deep in all-star MVP caliber players when we're talking about Shea, that they just couldn't finagle what Giddy does to fit what they have, right? Giddy is not the type of player you fit around guys.

He's the type of player you've fit around. I don't know how good of a team that can be ultimately if you're built around Josh Giddy's ball handling. But he is a good, large playmaker who shows real knack with his vision. Clearly the shooting is coming and going. But like if you put enough shooting around him, maybe you can get the best version of him. what you're describing is a plane simmons

okay okay like this idea of a guy who's clearly not a star yet you need to build stuff around him in order for him to quote unquote flourish and I don't know why that's attractive right like even my type let's let's just say the bulls found the way to nail the construction of a team

quote unquote around Josh Giddy. Why? What is that? What is that doing for you? Why should a Bulls fan be excited about the prospect of the Bulls getting that right? They shouldn't. And I would like to say Bulls fans,

we are sorry. We wish things were better. I'm with you, Justin. Even though this team has been shaken up considerably, they're just going to be worse, I think, by wins and losses, maybe even worse to watch, I think as a young player

and a young playmaker in Giddy who's going to have opportunities to flourish but also opportunities to fail is going to be thrown into the fire here in a different way. I'm not uninterested to see how he does with that kind of role. I just don't think the Bulls are going to be

near the top of my league pass rankings. I don't think they're going to be a very good team. And I think they're going to miss a lot of what Demar de Rosen gave them in terms of the meticulous creation of offense. And frankly, you now have to replace like 3,000 forward minutes. that DeMar de Rosen gave you.

And all of them have caveats. Even the Josh Giddy minutes have this huge kind of red flag attached to them. And that's your best option. I do like the way that Giddy melds with Kobe White. Because White,

I don't think you want just dominating the ball there. I think he did a really good job of kind of getting the ball moving and getting the off and sparked. And then he would run around, find his spots, cut, and all that other stuff.

And so I think there is some synergy there that I'm excited for. So like the backcourt, at the very least, makes sense to me. But you're right. the rest of the team is kind of a mess to the point where like we don't know if Lonzo's going to play.

Patrick Williams apparently isn't fully healthy after being injured last year and banking a shit ton of money. Thank goodness you gave him that player option. You know, like he was a real flight risk, I think. If you hadn't really given him that little treat there. But I think ultimately it always comes back to our friend Zach Levine who is just waiting

desperately hoping someone will trade for him to the point where like you read some of the prezies material and it seems like everyone is on board with it. Like, oh, he's being a good vet. Like, he's going along with it. But everyone knows where this is going to end. But nobody's out there trading for him wise. And so the question I have down here is the one that we've been asking, God, three years now, two years, whatever. What the fuck are they doing with Zach Levine?

So here's the funny thing about all of this, right? is Zach Levine actually is a good Josh Giddy fit, right? Like, he makes sense as a player to put around, you know, trying to make Josh Giddy

be the best version of himself. Yes, offensively. But like, offensively, yes, offensively. Well, just think about what we know to be true about Zach Levine and his own opinion of himself

and coaching and management comes up to him and says, you're going to be true, be a nice guy that we that we put around Zach, that we put around Josh Giddy. That sounds completely mental to me.

But like, you know, between the injuries and the contracts, I'm not going to lie. I'm kind of surprised that nobody's been on this job, this Zach Levine thing. But like, he's been on the block for so long that the fact that it hasn't happened

makes me feel like it's not going to happen. I mean, you know, world where Carl Anthony Towns is getting traded away because of his contract, and that's a guy who was invaluable to a Western Conference Finals team. Why are you compromising and risking your team for the sake of a player who I like when he is healthy, but is not healthy enough? It's complicated. So he's got 43 million on the books for this season, 46 million the next year, and then 49 is a player option year after that. I think you're right. I think we didn't get into this with Towns really, but we're starting to see the signs of like the new CB.

creep up. And it's like guys like Zach Levine who might be talented and could take your team to the next level. No one's willing to take that risk just because if he's not available, that totally torpedoes, whatever you have going on there. Yeah. I don't know what to do. Just think about Golden State and where they're at with Steph and the idea that they

need to upgrade that talent and they let Clay Thompson walk out the door and nothing out of them for Zachless. me nothing. There's no smoke. There's no, oh, they can't, they want nothing to do with that guy. That's, that's kind of all you need to know about where he's at in terms of perception around the league. People just look at him as poison. And that's the exact market of team that you would think would be in the running. If I'm, if I'm a team that has a player like Zach Levine or like any kind of good veteran who could help a team that's trying to win now, I am eyeing that six to 12 range in the Western Conference, right?

All these teams that are going to be fighting tooth and nail to get in the play in, the warriors, the kings potentially, the Lakers potentially, the Pelicans, like those are the teams you're going to want to dangle these players over. And the fact that Zach Levine doesn't move them, or at least hasn't yet, I agree with you, Oz. I think it is pretty telling about how they think of him and what they think about investing something so significant in the idea of a player like that and a player who has the injury history that he does.

Yeah, we'll see at the trade deadline. I wonder if enough teams are desperate. Like the Warriors definitely jump out there as a team that wants to win as soon as possible just to make the most out of Steph Curry's timeline. I do wonder if the desperation plus maybe Levine logging some good games, like over two months, for instance, might swing things. But like, then he has to play for two months. And that has been difficult over recent years.

So I don't know. Any other guys we want to mention here before we move on? I mean, Matas Buzellis for sure. That's not even a laugh line, boss. That is a genuine comment. That's the number 11 pick in the draft. That is an actual take. Honestly, I would have...

Well, look, in the flip side of the Josh Giddy thing, like, I don't know exactly where he fits. I guess we'll see how healthy Pat Williams is, how many minutes at the four he ends up eating. I just want to see him in a real NBA ecosystem. I want to see him alongside actual playmakers. And so if there's a way for him and Giddy to play together, I think that could work nicely.

Maybe him and Kobe White to play off each other. That could work nicely. I just don't know. I don't know what the opportunity for him is going to be. And if I'm a team that's in the Bulls position, I would like to think that I would be prioritizing opportunities for guys like Matas Bezulus rather than, you know, regimenting him to come off the bench and get along wherever he fits in.

Like he should be more of a priority for their team for where they are right now, but they are perpetually stuck in the middle. Cut to Tori Craig playing 37 minutes a game. He's gonna, you know? He definitely is. Josh Giddy, by the way, do a rookie extension. That was the one real tough part about that trade. You have to pay him immediately.

So never a good thing to be on the other end of a same Presti trade. And that's part of one of the reasons why they got rid of him. Why don't we go to number 23, the Toronto Raptors, a team, I don't know what the fuck to do with. They have turned the page officially on the old school Raptors. Yakum is gone. And so Barnes is the guy. And so we got a little bit of a flash. of the Scotty Barnes Raptors.

Barnes, let's just say, had a very good individual season last year, was an All-Star. The playmaking seemed to pop. Also seemed to be playing with more confidence, especially earlier in the season when the shots were starting to fall. On the other hand, I'm left at a loss here, Rob, because I don't really know what level of star Barnes is. I think that says a lot about what they do with the rest of the team

and how good they could ultimately be. I think Barnes will ultimately settle in as a very good big playmaker who's going to be very effective on defense. But if that's the case and he's not like a high level score, then it's more incumbent on guys like quickly and the other guys you're building around him to be that. But then those guys are kind of in that mid-tier range where I'm not quite sure that they'll be able to provide enough punch. And so like I'm stuck in the middle with this team and I'm kind of confused in how they make their way out of this outside of landing a key draft. pick this year and just looking into that guy. Yeah. Do you want to just jump straight into the essential question?

Yeah, it's just if Scotty Barnes is a guy, capital A, capital G, shouldn't this team be a playing team? Yeah, I think he is a guy on the continuum of guys. He is a guy. Not a dude. Not yet a dude, but definitely more than a player, you know? So I think he's in a good range that the Raptors can feel good about. And this is really the first chance in fairness for him and us and them to see what a true

Scottie Barnes team looks like, starting the year knowing this is your guy, this is the core of the team, everything is oriented around him in some capacity, and to whatever extent you want to incorporate quickly or RJ Barrett or wherever else you consider to be part of the core here, this is a Scotty Barnes group. And there's no like lingering Pascal Seaccom trade rumor to sort out when it's very easy to forget, he didn't actually get traded until January. So we're getting a clean slate for the Raptors in a meaningful way. I don't think they're very good right now. I also don't think they are 25 wins bad, which is what they had last year. I think they wound up stinking because everything piled up, especially at the end of the year, the way it did injuries, personal tragedies, all these

mid-season trades. That just was not a team that was like equipped to win much in March and April. They take the shit out of the end of that season. Let's just be honest, because they were trying to keep their pick. And they ultimately didn't, which was real, real dark. These are the motivations. It's like, you look around and you're like, this is not a team that has a lot going on right now. might as well fight to try to keep the pick and ultimately, like, not be able to do that. I do think they can be better just on face than they were in terms of performance last season. And then you're hoping for some, again, continued internal development and growth from these guys. And I think there's reason to expect some of that.

Like, RJ Barrett as a Raptor has already been a meaningfully better player than he was as a Nick. I think he's shown a capacity to be a more diverse and versatile driver with this team. That's like a little less predictable than he was. And if you get those sorts of improvements from quickly, from Grady Dick, who's going to be a key member of this team, like it or not, that that's the kind of upward momentum that the Raptors ultimately need is like, Grady Dick's got to be really good. And I don't know that he's ready to be really good.

Was, you're excited for Dick? I'm always excited for Dick. But what I would say is, clip that audio. Just put it out in the world. What I would say is, RJ, like you guys said, looked good at the end of last year. Canada flamed the hell out of the Olympics.

Not his fault. He was one of the few bright spots of the team, man. Like, he's just looked better, looked sort of like he's just been unburdened by not being in the New York spotlight. Where it's like, when you get drafted directly behind Jha and Zion and these guys have shown all-MBA, All-Star MVP-level, you know, flashes in their career and RJ's been RJ. And I think that drug down his perception, man, because of the people that were allegedly

his peers in terms of where he got drafted and his age and stuff like that. In Toronto, it's not that, right? Like, he's just able to be the best version of himself. And I think that's dope. IQ got paid. God bless him. I'm happy for him. I thought he was slightly underrated

in his role in New York. And like the way Tibbs was sometimes like jerk around his minutes. Now I'm like, eh, did we pass the threshold of underrated into perhaps he might be a little bit over his skis a bit? So soon. I'm just saying it's something I'm watching out for

because I was a big IQ, you know, apologist back in his New York days. I just don't know why this, like, what is the reason this collection of players should be like some serious team this year. They won't. They won't be a serious team. No, but that's probably the answer is like this is probably a bridge year.

It's just like the future is closer than I think you would expect given where they are and that they're changing kind of the makeup of the team on the fly here because by going out and getting quickly and Barrett, two guys now heading into their fifth and six years respectively, like those are veteran players. And so we are kind of farther down the path a little bit. And so you don't probably have many opportunities to change things dramatically down the road. That's why I say, like, the draft pick they get out of this season probably is going to be one of the last main building blocks unless they go out and swing a trade. But, like, there's nothing wrong with that.

You know, this is a totally solid team. Maybe on the right nights, they'll be a little spicier than usual. But they're also a different team, Robin, that, like, they're kind of small, like a little guard heavy after being like the rough and tough Toronto Raptors of old. and so, especially with Bruce Brown now out, and we don't know what's going to go on him. He underwent surgery on the 20th, and so he's out at least three weeks. We'll see about that.

So a little bit of a different team type of team, but maybe a little bit more refreshing after playing volleyball for so many years. Yeah, and it can feel refreshing just to turn the page a little bit and get some clarity as to like, okay, this is our young court. We're investing in them.

We're going to run with them. We're going to see how far it goes. Honestly, that can be an exciting time for a franchise. All of that said, we like Scotty, we like RJ. Otherwise, I think this is one of the worst wing rotations in the league, at least one of the most unproven. Maybe Grady Dick ends up becoming a great player. Maybe Jacoby Walter, who they just drafted at 19, winds up being like a rookie sensation. I don't know. Bruce Browns. A lot of guards, not a lot of wing, actual wing flexibility. And even the guards, again,

all have problems. Like, they traded for Davian Mitchell, who has his perks, certainly is a great pressure defender, but a huge liability in terms of the exact sort of spacing that they need. Like, this is a team that lost one of its best, if also Sterekeous shooters and Gary Trent Jr. Doesn't have a lot of floor spacing to go on, at least traditional floor spacing otherwise. Like all, some of the core guys can hit at a decent rate. I think Emmanuel quickly, historically especially. One thing I would watch that I would like to see more often is just by the timing of when the Raptors traded for Kelly Olinic and when Scotty Barnes got hurt, they didn't actually

end up playing very much together. I would love to see more Olinic at the five with some of their core guys. Like just for the spacing. Like that's one of the best pure knockdown spacer bigs in the league. Let's get a little pressure release out there. I think that would go a long way.

The Raptors are lacking for spacing. I've never heard of this before. I know. That's never happened. Well, if they don't start Dick, which they might not, like it gets pretty cramped pretty quickly. I think who would you start? Yeah, who else would you start?

I think it would be Abaji if you wanted the defense. David Mitchell, perhaps for the same reason. but also pretty small. So like the Jenga is like, Chris Boucher, no love, huh? Well, Boucher's out there, but like,

outside of Hurtle, like, their centers aren't centers. Yeah, Boucher's getting a little long in the suit there. You're right. Like, it's a linic and it's Boucher backing them up. And so, like, it gets pretty thin pretty quickly. So, yeah.

I don't know. There's also the weird wrinkle to this where the team, I guess, sold completely to Rogers because both Rogers and another company had equal parts in the company or they shared ownership. And now it seems like Maasai's position might be a little shaky because he had, he was aligned with one part of the company and now it's going to the other side that he wasn't as aligned with.

I don't know. You can read about it. It was in the athletic air cream. We're a good story about it. So that's all playing out behind closed doors, which is a whole other issue that might disrupt everything. I think the sea leaves were exposed when they basically. finally caved and traded Siakum for what wasn't the absolute perfect deal.

Like, if you remember, Maasai had been steadfast and the same with Ananobe, like, steadfast and stubborn about the guys and who he traded and what he would be willing to trade him for. Remember OG Ananovi was like seven first round picks or something stupid like that that they had to give. Once you saw those deals get sort of rammed through, I think that was like an indication that Maasai doesn't have this ironcloth. had authority over things in the way that he used to. And maybe that's a good thing, man. Because honestly, like, I look at him and Danny Age as two sides of the same coin,

where it's just like, we only do the perfect trades. And similarly, their teams are stuck in this, like, neutral position where they're not in great position to bring in sick young talent. And they're nowhere near to being locks for the playoffs, right? And so, you know, I think those approaches have their downsides and upsides. And I think we're seeing the downsides for both teams right now. I think when you're in these transitional spaces as a team and you clutch on to your best players a little too tightly, you end up with that like to your window where nothing really happens.

Like maybe you get to the playoffs, but you're an easy out. And then maybe you don't even make the playoffs at all. And then when you finally do start to turn the page, it's like now there's urgency. Because you can't go five, six years without doing anything. And so you have to start accelerating a little faster than you might like. People do get heat and pressure in management positions and coaching positions as a result of that. You can see the, like, the toll it takes on a franchise when you hold on to those kinds of stars a little bit longer than you probably should have. Yeah. And if anything, this team probably needs Missize Magic Pixie Dust for finding guys on the fringes that turn into ultimately starters and contributors,

fred fervently. Even Chris Boucher was one of those types of guys. So like finding the next wave of those guys seems more important. than ever and to not have him potentially down the road might completely alter whatever they have already in the house here. So we'll keep track of that one. Can I name one guy before we move on? Absolutely. I don't want anyone to forget.

I don't want this loss to history that in the illustrious Davion Mitchell trade, the Raptors also got back Sasha Vizenko from the Kings, who gave back his entire $7 million salary because he wanted out of the NBA so badly. incredible shit incredible you wouldn't do that just to go back to Dallas give up seven million dollars

yeah just so you could be back on the prairie just just leading the horses through whatever someone leads horses through no just think about if you if you're willing to put up with the one year how much seven million dollars like how much water burger that will buy you

you know I can wait I can wait all the institutions are going to be there I'm willing to bide my time. Okay. Waterberger, sponsor this show. Hell yeah. Let's go.

All right. The Hawks number 22. I think we can go straight to the essential question on this one because I think it organizes everything with this team, which is that are the Hawks stuck being a Trey Young team for better or worse? Because I've been thinking about this. They really did kind of with the Dejante Murray trade this offseason, revert back to the team that they were in 2021, right?

after they made the Eastern Conference finals that year where there was like slightly disappointing, but you still had hopes that like, oh, a team powered by Trey could be something. And I find myself wondering, one, who the fuck is trading for Trey Young? That's a whole other conversation that we could add if you guys want. But number two, I think we've had it, first of all. I think we've had that conversation many, many, many times. Yeah. Well, I actually think the Lakers would be pretty interesting with Trey.

I'm going to say that's a whole other issue. Is it that bad to be a Trey Young team if you've set up everything else to take advantage of what Trey does? Because he is still a fairly electric offensive player who is a very, very elite level playmaker, has the deep shooting, which is kind of like a mcuffin that just opens up space. It isn't really good at it, but I'm glad that he does it. It's really fun. But now they have all these like three and D wings around him and guys that he could just feed. and I almost wonder if this just reverts us back to the whole team where it's like I guess that mixes a high level playing team

as opposed to a low level playing team but maybe it's better. Was, what do you think? I'm not sold on this as an idea. I've been saying it for almost two years now that I think Trey Young with the Hawks with this ownership group like him having been made the, you know, the golden boy of the franchise,

the quote unquote savior and all of that, like, I find it hard to believe that he will ever change in any material way how he approaches the game. And I think the way that he approaches it right now is very limiting to, you know, creating like team first all for one kind of mentality within a group when one guy just basically operates on his own planet and we, or his own son, I should say, and everybody else is a planet orbiting it. And, you know, basically lives by that dictate. I don't think that's healthy for a team.

Like, Trey Young being the focal point of every single thing that you do as a team is not proven to be some fruitful endeavor. There's just no proof that that's going to work. And so I don't know how you get excited about just being like, all right, we're reverting back to, you know, extremely heliocentric Trey Young offenses. and praying that the guys around him are cool with that enough that they're given there all to mask his vast inefficiencies on defense, guys.

Like, it's his shortcomings that these people have to, you know, basically taper over in order for the team to work while also just never getting the ball. It's like, I don't know why that's supposed to work. I don't know that we can be certain they're going to be as heliocentric. trick as they were. I think it will naturally, so long as Tray Young is playing basketball for this Atlanta Hawks organization,

there will be a degree of that. And trading DeJante Murray away opens up a lot of airspace that I'm sure he will absorb some of inevitably. I don't know that I'm thinking it's going to go right back to the way it was. And I wonder if there's some wiggle room there with some of these guys

who they have on the periphery of this team. Like Jalen Johnson is a great example of a guy who plays in a flow and plays in a space. Dyson Daniels, who they just acquired, also can play really successfully in that style and in that way. Bogdan Bogdanovich, that is how he is best suited to play.

Is there a way to accommodate a few more of those supporting guys while also letting Trey do his thing? Because I want to say in all fairness, like in the big picture sense, I don't think anyone can look at the Hawks and where they are right now and just love the vision

of where this franchise is headed. But I do think it's worth saying that Trey is the kind of star that actually can carry good offense. This is a team that was a good offensive team last year, even while no one was really paying attention to them, even while no one was really buying them

as an actual contender of any kind, he can carry a good offense, he's more accomplished than players who have much higher approval ratings than him, and he makes plays that other guards cannot make. Yes. All of those things are empirically and undeniably true. You just have to wrestle with what it means

for your larger organizational factors, like in considerations, like how much do you want to beat that kind of trade, Tray Young team? And I think to the larger point of your question, Justin, how much can you even avoid it? Like, can you even trade him for something that is meaningful and advancing your organization right now? I don't know.

Hell yeah. This is what I'm talking about. Resigned acceptance. That is what the Atlanta Hawks do. I think you're right, though. I think, like, the guys that they have around him are a little bit more complimentary to the way he is going to dictate that the team plays.

Even Risha Shea definitely never going to live up to the number one billing. On the other hand, this guy is a giant ball move. who can shoot theoretically. In theory. In theory. All the asterisks in theory. Apparently he's still like growing. Like he's like 610 now.

I don't know if you've seen photos of this guy. He's like he's 16 years old. Yeah. Of course he's still growing. But everything you hear about him is like he plays the right way. He wants to be more of a connector type. And so if you're setting up a Trey Young team, like that's exactly the type of guy I want around there.

Can I make the most out of Kinkkepella, whatever he's going to give you in his final year under contract as a vertical spacer. Great. If not, you got Jalen Johnson to run pick and rolls out there. You have a Congo. You have other guys. And so I don't know, it just, it makes sense a little bit more than it has in the past. And so while I'm not saying like they're going to compete with the Sixers for like the three seed, I can see them being better and more enjoyable, most importantly than they have been over the past few years. That's myself. I think theoretically, right? Larry Nance, Jalen Johnson, of course, uh, Dyson and Danes.

These guys are all Tray Young players, meaning they're going to be complimentary. You know, Dyson Daniels specifically as a defensive player and eraser. Same with Jalen Johnson. These guys are going to be complimentary, you know, gangly, hyper-athletic guys around the problems with Tray Young. I don't think there's any doubt about that. I think the problem is that if this team were functioning correctly, Jalen Johnson would be allowed to touch the ball. He does touch the ball.

He'd be allowed to be a meaningful creator on this team, Rob. Like, it'd be more than just the occasional dribble handoff around Trey Young, right? Like, they'd be leveraging these guys in a more effective way. And so, you know, we'll see. We'll see how it goes. We'll see. But, like, I was kind of excited for. the Jalen Johnson thing when I thought

Trey Young was going to be out of here. Now I'm just like, like, look, they're just going to turn him into a way better, way more qualified John Collins. Isn't this just going to be John Collins redux?

Am I wrong about this? I think he's better than Collins. He's way better. I think that's probably true. Yeah, he's more, he has all the supplementary skills that he's not going to stop him from being marginalized, though. It depends on how he feels about that sort of role and his place in the flow of things was John Collins never seemed thrilled about.

But it's again, it's like all these things are kind of true. Like maybe they do wind up being like slightly better. I think that's a weird thing to say after trading away someone like Dejante Murray and punting on that experiment. But it's possible or at least you could feel a little better about the momentum of what the team is building. I just think ultimately all of this feels like a slow motion tear down. and it feels like an ownership group that is loath to actually rebuild and in doing so it's just sort of refusing

to acknowledge that they actually need to rebuild and so yeah it leads to this sort of this reluctant acceptance for us Justin where here's to another season of us going through the motions and ignoring our flaws and just like barreling head first into a new day along with the Atlanta Hawks. It's almost like an

arranged marriage but then you find out that your partner is like kind of cool you know it's like oh this isn't someone that I would have like maybe married myself, but we're in the situation. It's like, oh, I could get down with this. This is basically the plot of the Mr.

and Mrs. Smith series. I don't know if you guys have checked that out. That's effectively what it is. I did like that series. I thought it's criminally underrated. Maybe it goes well. I will say one red flag. I don't know if you guys have seen

Tray Young's beard lately. It looks like a guy who's going through a lot. Rogaine? Looks like, no, I just think it's it looks like a man who has been on a walkabout and has really been thinking about a lot of things. And he's come back from the wilderness and I guess he's ready to play basketball again.

Just thinking about ways to throw his new teammates under the bus. And we'll see. The flip side of this is they could just become the tradeway station for the rest of the league if they do continue down this path where they're tearing things down in addition to maybe trading tray. Like they got way too many centers on this roster. Capell is an expiring. A congaw is there ostensibly the future at the position.

Larry Nance, I thought, was really good as a small ball five in New Orleans. Cody Zeller on the roster for whatever reason. Also, would like good things for Bogdan Bogdanovich. Like, we never got him to Milwaukee and then he took this side journey to Atlanta. Like, can we get him into the mix where he's like a seventh man for a very good playoff team? I don't know who that is, but like they can make some stuff happen if this doesn't go right, which I think is also to their benefit. Yeah.

On the Bogdan front, who would you start at the two for this team? You know, Bogdan has tenure. He's the better player. Dyson Daniels might be the better Trey Young fit, and certainly is the new guy in the door, someone they're investing in a different kind of way. Like, what would you do with that spot? So if they don't start Bogdan,

does that mean that Dyson has to be my backup point guard? Are we giving that to Buffkin? I think they're both kind of the backup point card. And Buffkin will play and handle some, but I think Bogdanovich and Dyson Daniels... Yeah, they'll kind of be the backup point one way or the other. I think this is ultimately a Dyson Daniels question and what his future lies because I don't know what he is on offense.

I think he's a potentially destructive force in a good way for your team defensively, but he's still kind of finding out who he is, and he played a little bit of backup point guard with New Orleans. I wonder if that behooves him to continue down that path. And so is pairing him with Trey Young making his lack of shooting and everything else, does that mitigate that? Or are we not developing some of the other parts that we need to develop? I don't know.

Yeah. Anything else here? Any other guys? I know there is a steady drumbeat for the Hawks to move on from Clint Capella and look, I get it. I think we're all on the same page as what's happening there.

His hands aren't great. The defense is slipped. These are the realities we have come to accept. He was also far in a way the best offensive rebounder in the league last season. And for a team that settles for a lot of jumpers, that's a thing that actually matters. And so I will say,

in a way, be careful what you wish for. The day that they transition from Clint Capella to I love a Kangwu, much smaller player, not the same factor on the glass, totally different style. If you're playing a Jalen Johnson, a Kangu front court, there will be rebounding and defensive problems that come with that. And that's all I will say on the matter. I don't think Clint Capella is perfect,

but he provides a role for this team that is actually kind of important. If I'm a Hawks fan, just the side of Capella and DeAndre Hunter are just reminders of the Hawks thing not working at all. And they're just holdovers from the idea of this team from years ago. It just hasn't worked. Like DeAndre Hunter, like, talk about disappointment. There's a reason he hasn't come up until now.

Yeah. So, like, it's just tough to see in Capella still on this team. It's crazy. Too many guys back then. So we should now flip to the team that is too many guys right now. which is number 21. Your Houston Rockets. There are teams with a lot of guys.

There are guys with too many guys. This has a potential abundance, historic amount of guys on this roster. I cannot think of a roster this just bursting at the seams with interesting young players. Just to name off a few. Jalen Green, Alperin Shengoon,

Jabari Smith, Amend Thompson, Reed Shepard, Cam Whitmore, Eason, all play for the same goddamn team. If your team had one of these guys, he would be the guy that your fan base absolutely loved and would be be beckoning to play more minutes in the same way we used to with like, say, Jonathan Kaminga. This team has all of them, Rob, and I don't know what to do with them.

I think there's like a powder keg of internal development that could go off at literally any time. A powder keg of guys, a cornucopia of guys. I think what's interesting about that list is not only would they be like the favorite young player on your team, you could tell me that basically any of those guys has a monster season coming up. And I would believe you. And it's going to be a function of who gets the opportunity. And I think a function of what kind of team are the Houston Rockets and what kind of team

do they actually want to be? Yeah. And man, I wonder how they manage the minutes situation. Perhaps, you know, some trade. Because we know they want to be good right now. Perhaps some trade to, yeah, yeah, they're a good team to upgrade. in terms of a veteran, you know, you might have to give up a young piece to bring in some, like, you know, immediately, like, really sick upgrade will be out there.

But save for that, they got to find ways to play, you know, Reed and Green and Whitmore and all of these guys who are guards, all these guys who, like, want to have the ball in their hands, you know, like, this isn't some, like, Steph Curry-Clay-Thompson situation where both guys are off-ball, like, beasts. and whoever can handle the dribbling duties, like they're still going to be a threat. Like, these dudes want the rock, man. Like, they want to create for themselves. And so I'm interested to see how they manage it.

I mean, for me personally, I never sold my Jalen Greenstock. And so I still think this guy has, like, high-end, all-star type of talent and potential within him. I wonder if this is the year that he ultimately cements that, as his reality or if he just becomes one of those guys that just like, man, it just never quite came together for him.

So Jalen Green is still the guy for me. Reach Shepard, seeing him at Summer League for one freaking game. No, it was two games. I saw him at Summer League. Felt revelatory. It felt like a religious experience. It was an awakening for you.

Yes, it was. But I'm still most excited to see what Jalen Green does this season. Yeah, this brings us to the question we have down here, which is do the Rockets need to make hard choices to take another leap? Or are they too talented to fail at this point? And Rob, you can kind of take this a bunch of different directions. Like, the big picture is like, well, do we need to orient our team around Alperin Shungoon? One, do we, what do we make of the late season run with Jalen Green out there

and the team kind of running a little bit more freely? And even beyond that, like, how many minutes can you steal for certain guys and certain combinations? Like, how much is Reed Shepherd going to play? Like, how much is Fredman Ville? still going to be oversized serve an oversized importance for this team. So it's like, it's hard to really wrap my head around it, but like, I would assume they need to consolidate

at some point into a veteran or do you see a pathway perhaps with the existing talent? They just need to maybe pick and choose. I think if they kept all their talent, they could make some steady gains and be a winning team for the first time in the post James Hardin era. That would be nice. But to make the big leap,

the actual lap, they're going to need to pick a lane. And that's where I think Schengun is, it's unfortunate that it's positioned this way, but it is kind of like a Schengun or all of these other guys kind of prioritization. Yeah. I really like Schengun's game. I just think that the open style that they fell into playing Jabari at the five

at the end of last season suits more players on this team. Like that is definitively the best way to deploy Alman Thompson, which I'm very keen to do. Tari Isson, Cam Wademore, those are guys who play better faster and play better with space. We saw what it did for Jalen Green. I'm kind of in the middle was relative to, you know, you held onto your stock. I'm probably willing to sell my stock, but also invest the team in his future, if that makes sense.

Like I don't think that guy who he was in April is exactly the player Jalen Green is prepared to be. But in terms of the overall scope of the team, I think they probably do need to move in a more open and space direction. And some of that is this, which is I like Shangoon, I like his skill level, like everything he brings to the table. How certain are you that he can be a guy who anchors like a top 10 offense? Granted, he's 22. I don't want to overstate all the on-off stuff, but it was it was kind of striking the fact that they just didn't miss a beat offensively without him. Well, then, and how good is your defense going to be ultimately if he has to play center for you? There's a real, like, I recognize how much value he has as an offensive hub. Like, he was practically

an all-star last year. If he goes down this path again, if they don't change anything. He might be an all-star again, or he might be an all-sor for the first time this season. I do wonder, can you sacrifice as much as you sacrifice defensively with him out there if he isn't a Yokic-level creator on the other side of the ball? And if he's just a very good offensive hub as opposed to an elite historic one, can you make that much of a trade-off? And then do we have to start thinking long-term about where he fits in the mix there? For me, with Shingoon, what I asked myself is how amazing were the, best, you know,

Al Jefferson-centric teams. That's the question you're asking to me, right? Like, this guy is clearly, like, individually of all the young players, he so clearly has his shit together in terms of his gain more than everybody else. But what does centering your team around that ultimately do? Like, don't you want to make the bigger bet

that these things work out with these more tantalizing, you know, more athletic, more conventional NBA kind of players. That's the ultimate question you got to ask you to jazz. And I think me personally, I'd probably rather shoot for the moon than go with what I know to be this steady, like drumbeat of production. I think the big difference there is the passing relative to the Al Jefferson types. He can actually be a hub of an offense. And an offense that is pretty functional, it can work,

and especially work with these sorts of veteran players around him, guys who know how to move and know how to cut, know how to play within that style. I think what's impressive about the Rockets right now is they do have all of this upside and all this upside to play with. They also, because of what EMA has been able to do there, have a very professional culture where they have a really strong shell defense, right, a top 10 defensive team last season.

They take care of the ball in a way that young teams do not characteristically do. And so they have these sorts of like steadying factors. and yet when they do kind of fluctuate in performance, it's usually because of this identity crisis. It's usually because when you move from starters to bench or from starters to replacement starters when Shangoon is out, you're going through these radical swings in style. And some teams can manage that and some teams can't.

I find personally younger players have a hard time with that sort of like mental gymnastics of like, oh, my job with the starting lineup is to stand on the corner and my job with the second unit is to run like a fucking gazelle. Like that's a hard shift to make for something. guys when they're just trying to find their way into the league. But maybe they can figure it out. Like maybe they can balance it.

And I understand given all the talent involved, and Shenkoon is very good, why you would want to give it every opportunity to succeed before you start dealing guys. Yeah. And then if you go away from Shangun and prioritize the young Feng version, like just full time, is there enough size there to really make a go of it

against the Western Conference? There's a lot of big opponents out there that you're going to have to combat. And so it's a very complex situation where it's like I like every single player on the roster. And I think that they could be quite good if they just continue down this path. But I ultimately wonder if they're best off if none of these players ultimately is their best player down the road. Is if they import the Kevin Durant style of player and they are set up probably better than any other team in the league at this point because of their abundance of guys to make that trade.

If they get him in and just fit the right guys around that. because I just don't see like a top 10 sort of talent on this team. Like Green might be the one who has the most chance of getting there, but he's already kind of far down the path of his career. And I don't know if he'll ever get there. So it's a fascinating situation. Like I can't think of anything like it. And that's the thing too.

Like I feel like a lot of people in our profession are always like, yo, go out and chase the ping pong balls and get the young guys in. Like they've had four nice cracks at it. like Jalen Green, Amin Thompson, Jabari Smith, Reecher, these are freaking highly drafted players. And we're still sitting here like, eh, I don't know.

They're the opposite of, remember when the magic would tank, but then just not be in position to get the actual guy. They got like, oh, Aaron Gordon, as opposed to someone who went on to be a multi-time all-star.

They're the opposite of that where they always luck into the right pick and now they're just piling up on top of each other. I guess it's a good, problem to have in contrast to that. But Rob, what do you think? Do you think like the next star for the Rockets is on this team?

Probably not. And it's interesting, too, that as we're kind of debating these versions of the Rockets that could exist, Jabari is a guy who's like a rock solid piece of that puzzle. But I don't think anyone is looking at Jabari Smith at the Five and being like, that is an amazing NBA center. It's like he opens things up for other people and is an enabler in a way that they need. And that maybe it would be great for Jalen Green's development or I'm in Tom. development, but it's not because he himself is a potential top 10 player.

And so that's where I'm kind of along the same lines as you, Justin, where there's a lot of really good players, but it's a lot of potentially second and third best players on a team, unless Jalen Green takes the step that, Waz, I'm with you on the talent. Like, he has it in him, but maybe it's more of a fringe case in terms of actualizing that talent at this point. And yeah, if you're the Rockets, if you're looking at the Rockets, you think to yourself, the team that's nailed this kind of thing is OKC. And who's the Rockets J-dub?

Who's their Chet? Like, they don't, like, much less the freaking, you know, much less the freaking Shea, right? I don't think they have anybody of the caliber in terms of their roles, right? Like, J-dub is clearly, like, the secondary star guy, right? And Chet's going to be, like, the anchor of the defense and whatever.

Like those guys, their roles are so defined, and they are going to project to be elite in those roles. Who is the guy here that we can project to be like, yo, he's going to be elite in whatever role he ultimately fulfills for this team? I don't think we see it yet. Yeah. I will say, I do think that they could still be pretty good this season if they just stand pat, which I assume that they will do, unless they pull some sort of Carl Anthony Towns thing before they get going here. for me, the decision came down to in terms of how to rank these teams between them or the Spurs. And for me, the Spurs having Wembe Nama is like a surefire. I know I can count on him game in and game out as long as he's healthy in order to drive results.

That was the differentiator for me to put the spurs who we haven't talked about and thus are in the next edition of our power rankings over the Rockets for that kind of like 10th spot in the Western Conference. What's wrong? We did not do this. You have the Spurs lower? Yes. The Spurs won 22 games. Yeah. The fact that the Spurs aren't part of this group is hilarious.

The Rockets are too good for this. Oh, I think they're on the same basic level. If anything, I will say losing the cell to start the season is probably going to get them off to a bad start. And I do worry about them as a result of that. But the idea that the Spurs wouldn't compete for a playing spot is kind of, absurd. All they have to do is basically be around 500. We don't have to get, this is turning into a spurs. All they have to do is win 19 more games than they won last year.

Yeah. They have one good player on their team. And they have a ton of solid vets now. I mean, that one player is quite frankly the best 20 year old we've ever seen in NBA basketball, but okay. Not better than LeBron. Sorry. You've been Wendy Pilled. This is, this is disrespectful to the Rockets, I think.

And as I, by the way, as I look at these rankings, Waz had the Spurs. above the Rockets. Was? Did I? Yeah, you did. That's clerical error. Yours is a philosophical problem. That's clerical error, clearly.

More of a rockets conversation, though. Like, I wonder if that means a lot. Because the West is going to be highly compacted. I do wonder if, like, getting off to a rough start for the spurs, like, that opens the door, for instance, for the rockets to sneak in there. Kauai, for instance, who we'll talk about the clippers eventually here, like, he's not going it seems like be ready for the start of the season, opens a door for the Rockets to take in there.

So just having the abundance of guys will actually just be a benefit because they have guys to play that they can count them. They could find their way in, potentially. I think they have that in them. I think they're already a really rock-solid team. I think if they played in the Eastern Conference, they would be a playoff team. But, you know, maybe we can get it.

Can we move the Houston Rockets to the Beaumont Rockets, fudge the Eastern Conference line a little bit? Let's get them in that seventh or eighth seed. You hit the spurs below the hawks, by the way. That's just, that's a travesty. The spurs are not, like, they're not ready for, they're not ready for a 20-win jump. They're not. Feel the revolution, my friend.

Feel it. Revolutions are slow and bloody. I hate to break into you. This guy. All right, why don't we wrap it there? We'll be back Thursday because our new days are Monday and Thursday. So we'll check in with the new edition of the power rankings. Also, one last thing before we go, Justin.

as we recorded this pod the New York Mets clinched a postseason birth let's go Mets Yes sir That just happened like five minutes ago Wow Congrats

So what does that mean they play At least three more games No They're just the wild card team Oh okay So not even that Yeah So not even that

Congrats on your extra game then Thank you Potentially Yeah Potentially All right. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Thursday.