The Ringer NBA Show - The Rockets Are Burning Out Their Fuse. Plus: Sleeper Draft Picks with Jonathan Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann. | The Mismatch

Episode Date: November 13, 2020

Verno and KOC get into the absolute dumpster fire raging in Houston right now with Westbrook forcing a trade and multiple role players expressing discontent (1:00), then get into other trades that could happen next week (26:45). Then The Ringer’s Jonathan Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann join KOC go team by team looking at potential late-first- and second-round draft picks (39:00). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Guests: Jonathan Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today's episode of the mismatch, Chris Vernon and I discussed the trade rumors of the week, including some of my recent reports on what's floating out there in the NBA ahead of what's going to be a wild, wild week for the NBA with trades, the draft, and then free agency. It's going to be nuts. And then after that, Jay Kyle, Mann, and Jonathan Charks join me in we talk NBA draft. We looked at contenders selecting late in the first round and the types of players that they could be looking for. All that next.

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Join me as he does every Friday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.k, Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Connor, A.K., Kevin O'Colk, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien, you posted your master's update video yesterday. One million views on Twitter. You know, I was just, I was talking with my producer about this. We've been doing those locally, those master's updates for years and years.

We just needed for it to go up during the crime. crappiest year ever. That's all. We just needed everybody, right? Like, just wanting to laugh, wanting to have something to smile about. I think, honestly, like in this bizarre way, I think that 2020 has just drained us all to death that anybody having fun, you know, could catch on, I think. I don't know. It's funny with that. Like, you know, that's why we're called a mismatch. Just totally different personalities. And with that video, man, Like you said, it's just good old fun. And for anybody who wants to watch that,

who is watching the Masters, go to Chris Vernon's Twitter. It's pinned on your page at Chris Vernon's show. It's really funny. Thanks, brother. Well, we've got a ton of stuff to get to NBA-wise because this is all going to come at us very, very fast, Kev. First things first, on Tuesday,

you talked on the show about the possibility of Russell Westbrook not being in Houston anymore. and the idea that Houston had talked to some people, and maybe Westbrook wants out. Shams Sharania later in the week said, in fact, Russell Westbrook does want out. And it felt like one of those. Now again, I don't know anything about the situation,

but it was one of those like, hey, who can get to the reporters first, right? Because you don't want to be shopped around, right? You don't want it out there that, hey, we don't want this guy who won't be shopped around. You'd want the narrative to be, hey, I want out of here, right? And so neither here nor there, right?

Like, yes, Houston probably isn't enthused about running that back. And you have the Westbrook thing. And it was shocking to see the first name that came about was Charlotte. Now, I talked about this a couple weeks ago. I was like, you know,

we kind of goofed where I was like, what do they have in Charlotte, you know, that makes people, want to watch or go to the games or whatever. You said PJ Washington. And so I think that question answered itself. Look, he's a Jordan brand guy.

It would be unsurprising to me if Jordan likes Russell Westbrook, certainly that kind of mentality, the fire that he plays with. And that has been a team that has not gotten a lot of attention for anything at a long time and they haven't you know they have certainly have not won at any kind of a high level and so i actually think it's a i actually think it'd be a fun fit you know what i mean i'd certainly pay attention to charlotte more and i don't know what their plan is going forward but um i'm always i i typically side with the if you can get an awesome player get an awesome player and i've also sided with people have gone way too far with the westbrook hate

Charlotte are making one of the biggest mistakes of the decade if they trade for Russell Westbrook, especially if they're giving up the number three pick in the draft to get him. And here's why, Chris. Oh, they're not giving up the number three pick. Well, you might be surprised. Wow. They, Charlotte, they right now, in my opinion,

I say PJ Washington kind of like tongue in cheek, you know, what are you watching them for? But they have some nice young players. PJ Washington had a really good rookie season. Devante Graham had a really good year for them. Number three pick and add another. guy. But to me, if you add Russell Westbrook, especially for trading the third pick and, you know, some other nice young player or whatever, you are missing out on an opportunity

in the loaded 2021 NBA draft. You are missing out on an opportunity and potentially the double draft in 2022, which could have some of the guys that we saw last night, Amoni Bates, Chet Holmgren, and many, many others for an opportunity to change your franchise for a decade plus. Maybe you don't end up with the number one pick. Maybe you have the number seven pick. Well, guess what? Next year's draft, the number seven pick is probably better than the number one pick this year. And for the Hornets, to me, the best thing to do is keep on this trajectory with Barago as your coach, with your young players, and focus on development for a little while. If you rush things to bring Westbrook in, who, by the way, yeah, he would make the Hornets way more exciting.

He would make the Hornets a team that I want to turn on and watch on a random Tuesday night. But what I wouldn't want to, when I look at that team, if they do that, I know they're just going to have a ceiling of like a seven seed or an eight seed in the Eastern Conference that's getting even stronger, even stronger this year with the Nets coming back with Katie and Kyrie, with Atlanta trying to push for the playoffs too. To me, don't push for that eight seed. If you're the Charlotte Hornets, focus on development and the long view here. Otherwise, you only feel this way, though, because it's Westbrook.

You do. No, I don't. No, I don't. I would say this if it was like Bradley B. I would say this if it was something like that. What? Let me rephrase that. Bradleyville's 26.

But if it's like Lamarcus Aldridge, 35 years old, if it's DeMardo Rosen in his early 30s, it's not just because it's Westbrook, it's because the position they're in in the league. They should not be fighting to be a fringe playoff team in the East just to get their ass kicked in the first round. They should be thinking about the long view here, the long term, because if you trade for Westbrook,

It's short-term satisfaction, and that's going to hurt them in the long run. And every Hornets fan that I've seen comments from, every Hornets fan that I've heard talk about this, they feel the same way. They feel the same way because they're sick of short-term satisfaction. They want to have a sustainable winner. And I'm not saying this because it's Westbrook. I don't care about the player name. I say Beale, and maybe I would say that if it's a large trade when they have no other avenue to get anybody else. fact is that Charlotte is making a mistake

if they trade for Russell Westbrook They're not if they could get Westbrook At somebody else You know what I mean? Is that somebody else? Well, but again, if you're a piece away If you got Russell Westbrook At another guy

Now, and you never know what's going to end up coming available Now all of a sudden You're a losing player in the postseason I mean, we've been through that a hundred times Speaking of losing. Like we can talk about Westbrook If you're trying to build a winner Adding another guy to Westbrook

To me like there's very few teams in the league if any, that I'd be happy to trade for Russell Westbrook. The Clippers, I sort of get it because the need for a playmaker, the need for a shot creator, but, you know, and plus you have championship expectations, you've got to bolster that any way you can. And Russell

Westbrook's obviously a good player. You know, I think he's overrated. We've talked about this a hundred times over the last four years. This is going to be our fifth upcoming season doing this together. We've been through it a lot with Russ. But he's still a good player. For the clippers, I get it. For the Hornets, I don't. There's just no

championship expectations there anytime soon. You got a focus on development. And I'm not saying tank. I'm not saying tank the next two, three years. That's ridiculous. I'm saying focus on development, focus on your youth, try to get better with your young players. And also, maybe on lottery night, you get lucky in the number one pick, maybe end up with

the number six pick and there's good players available because these next couple drafts, unlike this one, this one for over a year or two, we've been talking about this being kind of a shallow draft. The next couple of years, that's not the case. There's some real potential stars the next couple of years who can change your franchise, much like a Zion, much like a Jammer rant. That's what you're looking at in the coming years. Again, and this is why it's a mismatch, and this is why, and I am much, much higher on Russell Westbrook than you are as a player.

And so I look at it, like, what the hell do you do all this for? You do this so that you could acquire a superstar. You do this so you could acquire a huge star. I'm from the Daryl process of this, right? Like, these are the kind of guys you can't get in Charlotte. And you can live this pipe dream of, hey, maybe we'll get lucky in the lottery and we'll be able to draft a guy. But if I know that I can go and I can get one of these guys, now all of a sudden I'm a lot closer to being able to compete on a high level than I am just sitting around waiting for three more years. He's about to turn.

He just turned 32 years old. He's making $40 million for the next three years. He has a long history of knee injuries. I mean, like, this isn't just getting a star. This is a past his prime star, Chris. Didn't he just average like 25, 8 and 8 or something? Yeah, he had a good year. He was leading the entire NBA and points in the paint before the shutdown.

He was also playing in Houston, their weird, funky system with a bunch of shooters around him. The system that has PJ Tucker and Robert Covington and Eric Gordon and all these guys disappointed, and they want to move away from it. You still got to beat somebody off the dribble and get to the rim and finish. finish. I don't care what system. You're in. I look. I mean, Ross, like I said, Ross is a good player. And like, we've been through this a whole bunch of times. He's a good player.

To me, he is past his prime, getting paid way too much money right now for the production that you're getting for the, you know, if you're Charlotte, again, it's not just star in Westbrook or youth in like the chance of the lottery.

It's, it's fundamentally and philosophically short term versus long term thinking and I'm taking the long-term approach here. To me, Westbrook, all right. Hey, how about this? Like, to me, Westbrook isn't a draw. Do guys, how about this?

Let's say they want to trade for James Harden. James Hardin is a higher level player. We're talking about, well, you know, all your shit goes out the window. Well, yeah, because Hardin's a top 10 player. Westbrook is like a top 40 player. Okay, so it is about Westbrook. It's not about this whole philosophy of they need to focus on development. They need to focus on building.

What are you giving up, though? It would be the same thing. If you're getting up the third pick for Westbrook. It would be literally the same thing. You'd get James Hardin and you would not be able to compete at a high level. And by the way, like with Hardin, it's also a deeper conversation. If you're talking about what other guy you're getting, it is different if you're getting Hardin. Because I think Hardin's a guy you can win with.

I don't feel that way with Westbrook. But especially with Hardin, is it worth giving up the 2022 or maybe 2023 first round draft pick and a whole bunch else like six first round draft picks to get him? with no guarantee of getting something else. I might say no. I might say no in that case because it may make more sense for them to focus on the long view.

But Hardin's a different conversation because he's actually a winning player. A winning player? Chris, I don't want to hear this like talking point again about him going to a game seven against one of the greatest teams we've ever seen. Going to a game six against one of the greatest teams we've ever seen.

They nearly beat the Warriors. Because of Chris Paul. Let's retire this idea. Because of Chris Paul. Let's retire this idea that Hardin can't win. It's because of Chris Paul. Let's stop. Hardin is an unbelievable player.

Are we going to act like Chris Paul didn't go out and they got their ass kick and Steph Curry emasculated him on his home floor? We're not going to act like that happened. Like that happened, Kevin. Yeah, it happened. Haunton's had some stinkers. No, no. He's also had some unbelievable performances and averages nearly 30 points per game

in the postseason and did it against one of the best teams that we've seen in our entire lifetime. So let's relax about James Hardin and not being a guy. who can impact winning. James Hardin is somebody who's one of the greatest scores of all time, who has improved on defense when for years, people say he's a liability. He doesn't care.

He doesn't try. He's become solid on that then. He's a fantastic playmaker for your team. He's also younger than Westbrook. And nobody wants to play with him. Nobody. I don't know about that. You might be surprised.

You might be surprised. Yeah, I hope I am surprised because what they'll do, they'll go play with him for a year and then they'll want out. Put it this way. There's a reason why a bunch of teams are trying to get them. Who's like to play with him? James Hardin? Philly wants him.

Hell, Ghanes wouldn't even take him in the All-Star game. You might be surprised. I guess we're about to find out, right? And like I said, it's very possible if you told me James Hardin was available, should Charlotte give up their first round pick this year and their first round pick next year? And, you know, a whole bunch of other other stuff. I might say no. Because I do think for them in their position in the league,

taking the long view is likely the better approach. Likely. And with Westbrook, it is definitely 100%. the better approach. And they are making a mistake that's going to hurt them for a long, long time if they do trade for Westbrook. And I would not do it if I'm the Charlotte and Hornets. All right. Well, we just have vastly different opinions of those two players, to say the least.

Let's move to somebody that you reported on, which is Drew Holiday. And the reason I was surprised by this is because Drew Holiday, you had mentioned the Celtics and the idea of moving up. clearly if the Celtics were somehow able to acquire Drew Holiday, would the expectation be that he and Kimball Walker then played together and Drew's more off the ball. And also, beyond that, that would signal the end of the Gordon Hayward era, right? Like, I mean, there's just no way you're going to have Kemba's contract

and Hayward's contract and Holliday's contract. You would have to give up either, Gordon Hayward, who obviously there's already been the rumors about, maybe him wanting to move on. The Knicks have interest I've heard. Indiana, I'm sure he has interest in going home there. But it also could be Kemba too. Let's think about Kemba.

In his 30s, a long history of knee injuries did not perform well at all in the postseason. Danny Aange and his past has never been afraid, never hesitated to pull, the plug on something that's not working. He just said earlier this week in a call with a local Boston reporters that he thinks if the team had been healthy, they could have been a championship team. They could have moved on to the finals. They could have won it all. And I agree with him. I do agree with him. Boston had that upside. And to me, Kemba, I really, really like him as a player. I really do. But the injuries are a real concern. The fact he is smaller and is more of a defensive liability, that is a concern

in the postseason. To me, whether you're flipping Hayward somewhere else or whether you're flipping Kemba somewhere else, to me, Drew Holliday is an upgrade. over the both of those players. The problem for Boston is they have those three first round draft picks, 14, 26, and 30. They have, you know, Hayward, Kemba, you know, whoever else you want to throw in there from their young group, you know, Robert Williams, it might be an appealing asset. The problem is it's finding the right team to trade up to. And there are so many other teams that are in on Drew Holiday, you know, there's some that

have been reported, you know, there's like the idea that maybe Dallas could be in there. I've heard Portland could be in there. There's a whole bunch of teams that are in on Drew Holiday. Drew Holiday. I'm not sure Boston can put together the best package to get him. The best package that might be worth it for him. So for the Celtics, it could be a pipe dream, but to me, this is the type of thing that makes a heck of a lot of sense of them to add him into your defense and add that playmaking presence that he provides next to some of the other guys in that roster. When I heard that this week, it sort of clicked for me and it made a lot of

sense. So for Boston, they should be in on him. Just those names that you mentioned, clearly when first you mentioned Dallas, that is an unbelievable fit, right? Like, that would be ideal. I can, I can totally see that working and working extremely well alongside Luca Donchich. The Portland one, though. What? What were we doing like four guards like Villanova did years ago? Like, is that what we're going to, is that what we're going to try with Drew Holiday, why would Portland be interested in Drew Holiday? Damien Lillard and C.J. McCollum ranked number one and number two in minutes per game this season, number one and number two. And if you're Portland, I think you've got to think about

alleviating that on them so they have maximum energy in the postseason. And also, you can push those guys off ball a little bit more. I want to see, I want to see Dame be somebody who relocates more often. And I think if you have those three guys on the court together, yeah, you're a little bit undersized. It doesn't make sense to me. You're a little bit undersized, but Hollidays are really great defender and he's also better against some bigger guys. Like he can, let's say against the Golden State Warriors, you have a Steph, Clay, and I don't know, let's just say they draft Anthony Edwards. You can have Drew Holiday defend Clay or defend Edwards in that situation. You know, you know what I'm saying? Or he can defend Wiggins, right? And to me, that could work.

with that trio of guards. We saw how great Oklahoma City was this year with Chris Paul, Dennis Schrooter, and Chey Gildes Alexander. All guards, all guys who are at best with the ball in their hands, and with Portland, it would be similar. Gilgildes Alexander is certainly bigger, though.

He is bigger, but Holliday defends bigger than his measurements. You know what I'm saying? So I think for Portland it makes sense, but again, with them, I've heard them mention maybe about a week ago, I haven't heard anything since, and I would be willing to bet

that's because they can't put together the best package for him. They're just not in on holiday. They don't have the number of assets like some of these other teams do to get a player of the caliber of Drew Holiday. But like again, with Portland, with Boston, to me, the logic makes sense. And it's good to hear that these teams are going for a player like that because they're going for it. They're trying to maximize this opportunity here that they have to compete in the postseason.

Poor man's Drew Holiday might be Eric Bledsoe. and they were the they were the number one seed in the eastern conference but you reported that Eric Bledso's name has come up around the league as somebody there no surprise there yeah i mean look we've we've talked at length about how this is a huge offseason a huge team building moment for milwaukee because you're going to have to deal with all the crap all year anyway with people talking about Janus and will Janus stay or go and is Janus going to stay in Milwaukee and maybe Yonis ends up here and there and everywhere else. So this is, you've got whatever it is, a few weeks to build out, you know, the version of

the Milwaukee Bucks that Janus is going to play with next year. And so doing that, this is going to gain a lot of interest around the league to say the least. And I was unsurprised to hear Bloodso's name come up, but could they, you know, you know, find a landing spot? Can you get anything for Eric so now? Well, I reported this week in my mock draft on the ringers 20-N-Ba draft guide that the

Bucks have interest and are at least trying to have discussions with the Rockets for PJ Tucker and Robert Covington. Tucker, of course, in that article reported this week by Shams, Sam Amick, and Kelly Eco on the athletic that Tucker has not been happy with the role in the

money that he's been getting paid. Last season he got paid $8.3 million this coming season in the final year his contract, he'll be making $7.9 million. Granted, he's 35 years old. That guy can still defend like anybody. He can still defend anybody in the league. And if you're the bucks, to me...

It's kind of shocking that a guy wouldn't like to be expected to play defense, guard big guys all the time, and then staying in the corner on offense and watch other people dribble. I can't believe that he would want a bigger, a different role than that. Well, I want to touch on that thought you just said at a second. But like for Milwaukee, Tucker makes a lot of sense for obvious reasons. Janice did a defender Jimmy Baller in the postseason. So you've got to have a guy who's going to defend a

Jason Tatum, who's going to defend a Kevin Durant. And PJ Tucker is that guy who can handle any of those matchups and would be tasked with doing that. So if you're, let's say, let's just say Westbrook gets flipped in a package for a for a deal that includes a Ford, a bigger guy, you know, that could fill that void, you know, that you might lose with the Tucker. Maybe then you flip Tucker to get Eric Bletso and other assets, maybe a first-round draft pick, whatever it may be,

in order to redistribute and rebuild your roster around Hardin. Maybe that's something that Houston could be thinking about. But for Milwaukee, to me, whether it's Covington or whether it's Tucker, I'd love any of those guys. And with Covington, they had previously had interest in him prior to his trade. Man, they won that series because of Covington. Covington, when it mattered most, he was there for it. I mean, my perception of him went up greatly because of how he performed on the highest level.

He was really good. And we're just one other thing with James Harden, you know, you poked fun at their system and not wanting to play that way. I saw like the top posts on Reddit today, on NBA Reddit. This is the headline on the top post today. It says this is from All Star Weekend two years ago. Steph Curry. I talked to James in the back, obviously complimented him on what he's done. First thing he says is it's fun, but I want to play different.

Playing by myself or whatever hero ball, he don't want to play like that. A system where they can actually play beautiful basketball. That's what he wants. He was saying that it was recorded talking to Mike Booden holes. That clip went viral a couple of years ago. It went viral again today on Reddit because, you know, I've heard the same thing. I've heard rumblings over the years that Hardin appreciates the system, appreciates what it does in terms of, you know, winning in terms of like playoff runs. But I don't think Hardin himself sees the ceiling as NBA finals champion.

And I asked Hardin about this after the game that they lost and then the, postseason this year and when they got eliminated, I asked them like, you know, you were awesome in your younger days in OKC cutting off ball, moving off ball, going off a screens. And in your first two years in Houston, you did a lot of that. Is that something you'd like to incorporate in your game moving forward? And he gave like a general, you know, media savvy answer. But he didn't say no. He said, yeah, like I'll do whatever it takes to win. That's been good for me in the past. And to me, when it comes to the Rockets, whatever their new head coach, Stephen Silas and stalls, if I'm the Rockets and I'm James Hardin, I'm hoping they take a lot of what they did with

Luca and install it with Hardin, but also turn the page way back to his OKC days because Hardin was awesome off ball. I watch him cutting off ball alongside Durant and Westbrook. He was so smart. The way he moves on ball with his footwork and the handle, that works without the ball want his hands too to get open. And to me, unlocking that would give him more energy in games and which would help in those endgame situations where we've seen him quote unquote choke.

He's also probably been burnt out because of the demand on his body. To me, that is the next step for Hardin, whether it happens in Houston or whether it happens somewhere else. Well, your Mr.

Blow It Up Crown got taken for a day yesterday. I don't know if you saw this. I did not. Kendrick Perkins. Oh, yeah, Perkins said, he said, He said, you don't just trade Russell Westbrook.

You trade both of them. And you just decide. You get as many assets as he possibly can. And you move on because it's not, it's not going to, it's not going to do. You disagree. I think you trade Russ. I would, I mean, the only reason. And Covington and Tucker.

I mean, no, I don't, I don't think so. I think I would try to trade Russ and try to get something back that would appease James Harden because he's the guy who originally wanted to play with Russ. and you give it a try. And if during the season, Hardin's like, you know what, F this, I want out, then maybe at that point you trade them. But to me, now is not the right moment to trade James Harden, unless it's so overwhelming, such a ridiculous return that you're like,

we have no choice but to say yes. There's no point in waiting and potentially losing the leverage. That's like the line for me is an obscene return. Like a lot of draft picks, pick swaps, young players, so on and so forth. He's the top 10 player in the league, a guy who won an MVP should have won multiple MVP's in my opinion. Hardin is that level player. You don't trade that guy, not just yet, but that time could come soon.

We talked about this a couple months ago, Chris. Didn't we say the next team to potentially blow it up? Was the Houston Rockets? Well, here we are. It's come a lot sooner than we expected, but that moment has arrived or it's actually a conversation. But I wouldn't pull the plug on Hardin just yet. I'd try to build around him for at least half the season before the time.

the deadline. Yeah, it will be fascinating with a, with a new head coach in Stephen Silas because they have not, I mean, it's obviously not going to look anything like it did with Mike Dantone going forward. Let me ask you about a few other names that have come up and were mentioned in your column. The Zach Levine thing, you know, they've got all new management there in Chicago. They've got a new coach on their sideline in Billy Donovan. And, you know, one of the things you're going to do is you know there's going to be roster turnover as there is any time new management takes over. We've discussed this many times. New management, so much of this can be politics and you walk in and you don't get credit for that guy. You don't have any stock in his level of

success. And so you typically turn around the roster. But with that said, you kind of line them all up on the wall and you say, all right, who do we want to keep? Who do we want to move? And it had been reported different places that they really liked Lori Marketing and they liked him more than Wendell Carter maybe. And then you have this Levine note. What are we thinking on who the Bulls are going to build around? It sounds like Kobe White for sure. But who they're going to build around and do you think there is a good landing spot for Levine if they were able to move him? There's a lot floating out there about them. It's hard to know know what's tangible and what's going to materialize or not.

The way it was reported in my mock this week was that Dallas has interests. And Zach Levine, I've heard that they've gone for Drew Holiday and Spencer Didwitty from the Nets as well. And with Levine, the thought is, you know, in some front offices across the league is that for Chicago, let's say Lamello drops to number four, which is a possibility. We'll see on draft night that they would take that player. They would take Lamello ball with the fourth pick. And if that's the case, you suddenly have Kobe White, Zach Levine, Lamello Ball.

in your back court. I don't think those three can work together. There's not enough defense there and also the offensive styles clash. And so Levine has the most value to flip. Yeah, but of those ones when you were talking about Dallas, boy, I would much rather have Holiday or Dinwiddie.

I really would. Next to Luca. Levine, that's not a fit. To me, that's not, Levine is not a good fit there. That's not who I would want. That's not who I would want to allocate that money towards.

You know what I mean? Levine needs to go to someplace like Charlotte and go put up a million points, you know? I mean, he's already did that in Chicago for a year. And like Levine is somebody I've hated on a lot in the past. I didn't like him in the draft. I haven't liked him in his young career, but he's also

a 25 point per game score. Yeah, but that's meaningless to me. They don't win anything. I know they don't win anything, but he's efficient for the volume and you can see the potential for him in a winning situation. Ball still is the defense.

He doesn't play much defense. And we mentioned earlier how James Hardin has gotten a lot better on defense. Who knows? Maybe Levine would in a winning situation, though I do wonder how much of it can improve. Like effort on the ball, intensity, focus, that can improve. But off ball, he's always been a guy that misses rotations or allows backdoor cuts. And sometimes that's just, like even Jalen Brown, another guy, a really good overall defender, great on the ball, but very bad off ball.

Right. Some guys just don't have that off. But I'm glad, but I'm glad you brought him up because, and look, I've done my share of Busted Up on Levine, but I am also well aware that Zach Levine is the perfect, in my estimation, the perfect example of what I've talked about for so many years, about how much of your career can be altered by opportunity and fit and where you go. And it is truly the difference between somebody like Jalen Brown and somebody like Zalyn Brown and somebody like Zathe. Zach Levine going into a great structure and a winning situation and a coach that's been there. Like the trajectory of Zach Levine could have been a much different story if he would have gotten drafted by a good franchise and being nurtured by a good franchise and then or maybe even early in his career moved over to somebody that's winning. But I think that you just end up picking up so many bad habits and you end up, you know, your context within the league. You get this different perception of kind of where you fit within the league because of that success you have on rat teams.

To me, he's, you know, all those flaws and all that. He's the right idea of what Dallas should be looking for is a secondary presence next to Luca. He, you know, let's say Dallas were to get him. He's clearly an upgrade from Tim Hardaway, Jr. So that helps there with a shot creation aspect, with a scoring ability next to Luca. And I think he's young enough. He was 24 this past season that he doesn't preclude you from potentially creating cap space to sign of Yanis next summer. Let's say Janus wants to go to Dallas.

Let's just say that's the case. You could flip Levine elsewhere at making $19.5 million being in his mid-20s quite easily. There would be a number of teams that would have interest in him. And you could also say the same. You could also try to flip KP if you wanted to as well, but that's a different conversation for another day. But I don't think trading for Levine with his cap number next year would take them out of the yana sweepstakes necessarily. So to me, someone like that kind of makes sense, even though he's not the perfect fit in the back court next to Luca, that's like a Bradley Beal. A Beal may not be available next year, depending on how things go with John Wall this season.

He may want to stay there and they might want to build that out. So that avenue to me is less likely. And I wonder if maybe that's why I'm starting to hear some stuff about them going around for a Dinwiddie, going around for a Levine, a Drew Holiday, because they might not see a path to get that guy who is ideal next summer. So why not get somebody now and try to bolster your team this year? Because by the way, Luke is an MVP candidate entering the season. He very well might win MVP. And if you're Dallas with a guy like that, you're automatically in championship contention. So maybe you should do everything in your power to maximize this.

season. But he's not the fit to me. To me, he's just not the fit. He's not perfect. That's for sure. This question marks. Rick Carlisle would be like, you got to start defending or you're not playing. Because Carlisle will have no tolerance for some of the defensive performances we've seen from Levine in the past. Yeah, and how

comfortable is he being the third banana? Probably. You know? I mean, look, I'm still high on Porzingis. A healthy Porzingis is a guy that you're going to be able to count on, I think. K.P., the question is, can he be can he stay healthy that's just not my big three i got to find something else do you

know what i mean i need i need to find something else to flank uh don't chigen for zingas that's a much better fit than zach levine and by the way like we'll even see if levine would be available we don't know where ball's going to go with level oh he very well like my my conspiracy theory is that so he had his workouts this week he had a private workout with minnesota at number one and then he had a workout with two golden state three charlotte and seven detroit it's funny that Detroit would be in that. I wonder if they're in that because there's a high probability that the pistons move up. Yes.

And the question would be where do they move up? Do they move up to one? Do they move up to two? Do they move up to three? Well, this is what we talked about last week. I said there's some of those teams that had really shitty seasons that didn't get the high draft picks. Yeah. Right?

It's like if you're Detroit, it's like, oh my God, we just went through hell with this season. and then we're rewarded with getting the seventh pick in the draft. It's kind of like how Knicks fans feel with the eighth. So any of those moving up, and certainly you have the ability, if you're some of those teams at the top, like a Minnesota, like a Warriors, even Charlotte, for that matter, I mean, they didn't have some kind of wretched season. Charlotte could trade down if they want to. They like a game of.

You can afford to if you're them, right? You can afford to if you're them because you don't need a franchise say, And I know we've talked. There's probably not one. But you still want to get the best possible player you can. And picking seven or eight is a tough spot if you just had a crap season. And for Charlotte, by the way, it's a type of thing where let's just say the top two are Edwards to Minnesota and Wiseman to Golden State.

At that third pick, it's very possible Charlotte would want to take on Yake A. O'K.L. Kong with a USC center. They could probably trade down to seven and still get him. There has been virtually no noise about him going. four to Chicago or five to Cleveland or six for that matter to Atlanta. And I don't think the team that trades up to six, my understanding is it wouldn't be for, Anya K. Ok Kong would probably be for Patrick Williams.

It should he still be on the board. And so you could probably feel good about getting him at seven if you're the Hornets. And that's sort of where I'm landing here, where we're a couple days away from the draft less of the week now, which is insane. but I think that we might see a trade on draft night with Detroit going into the top three because why else would they be in that workout? It's just, you know what I mean?

Like the seventh pick? Why else? All right. So let me ask you this because I know you and Jay Kyle, man and Charks are going to be talking a lot about the draft coming up. Last thing I'll ask you, is there anybody in the top five or 10 that you believe at this point will not exercise their pick in the top? top five or ten. I don't know.

I mean Atlanta. You feel strongly that they will move down. Atlanta is most likely. But anything's possible, man. Anything's possible with this draft. There's so much stuff floating out there. It could be a wild next couple days. Things could change by Tuesday when we record.

And things are definitely going to change on Wednesday night of the draft. So that's what makes this draft so hard to predict. And that's why there's no team, no GM, no. executive that I've talked to out there who was operating under any assumptions about this draft because we don't know which teams are going to pick where and it changes every week hell I look at the mock draft y'all have up right now you got edwards going one now that we've had edwards i think won a while now it was wiseman just as of last week right no we had edwards one for consecutive mocks really yeah oh okay i thought i thought wiseman had moved up there when when we had

last talked about things. I think I've had it was like three or four in a row, something like that. Three or four in a row? Yeah. Oh my goodness. Not looking at the draft draft got enough, Chris. Come on. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. I'm, I'm, I, I am, I'm resenting this because I, oh, I believe that Wiseman was number one. I think they snuck it in on you and then they moved it back down. I hope not.

All right. You guys are going to be talking a lot about the NBA draft on the other side. Kevin's going to be joined by Charks and Jay Kyle. Man, four is too many. So I bid a do. And I'll talk to you next Tuesday. See you, Chris. And now we bring on Jonathan Charks and Jay Kyle, man. How are you guys doing today?

Great. Thanks for having us on. I just have to say first, Kyle, you released a video breakdown yesterday on La Mello Ball. And I got to say, I think it's probably the best video that you've done with us at the ring. It's perfect. fair analysis and it's funny the clip with Dort people are going to watch this go to

the ringer's YouTube page it may be laugh so hard that I have a pause of video and go back it's really good man I mean the pistol Pete stuff that was legit yeah really good it's really good micro comment on that but I wanted to also say that like you guys you guys look really tan and fresh

and revived from your trip to Europe you look good I'm impressed I don't know about me but for Charks looks good I look very pale Charks, I also just want to shame you. You have a young child. And especially in a pandemic, you don't need to be going to Europe and traveling all over the continent. Shame on you.

Yeah. We did a Euro trip video that's also on the Ringer's YouTube page, breaking down the international prospects and a producer Cory McConnell did an awesome job on that. But anyway, yeah, for sure. Today we're not talking about, you know, the top prospects. We're talking about guys outside the lottery, you know, with teams that could be going to some contenders in the middle to late first round. talk about the decisions that they'll face on draft right they can take some home run swings or maybe find guys that could contribute right away and for some teams the drafts not free agency could be their avenue to find that early contributor so what we're going to do is match a team to a player and some of the things that we say could apply to other teams that we might not talk about today so

Kyle let's start off with you who's your team and who's your prospect for them well the first team that I wanted to talk about was Denver and, you know, kind of looking at Denver's situation right now, you know, they, they kind of overperform my expectations for them in the playoffs, but they're a team that I see as needing, you know, they're going to have offense going forward. Like, that's not going to be an issue. Honestly, they're going to have to figure out a way to sort of evenly distribute those shots, I think, between, you know, Porter coming along and things like that. But I, they're, they're in that typical situation where they need some flexibility and depth defensively on the wing, I think.

I'm kind of leaning between two different guys, and I think that your mindset would dictate who it would be. The main person that I think of at that spot, and this makes a lot of sense because he's a Colorado guy, is Tyler Bay. Bay's a long, you know, a lanky, bouncy, just a guy that can cover a lot of ground quickly. He's coming along kind of his feel as a shooter and a score,

but I think that he's somebody that could come in and give them with later rotation. There are multiple clips where you can go and watch Tyler Bay guard the ball handler capability, switch on to, you know, and dribble handoffs onto a score. I was watching a clip a minute ago where he rotates in one play does this and blocks Zieg Najee's shot like tippy toad and Zieg Naji's a big guy. So that's one guy and the other, if you wanted to think more long term, a guy that could give you more

in the future would be Jemias Ramsey. So I was kind of flip-flopping between those two dudes. Ramsey, I think, has more upside as a score. We'll talk Ramsey in a second. Okay, all right. I'll set the table for you, then, Charks on that one. So the nuggets are kind of set everywhere. They have a lot of ball handlers, Yokic, Murray, Will Barton, Morris.

They get Fords, Michael Porter, Jr. They want to bring back Jeremy Grant. And at Big Millsap and Plumley are free agents. They're both in their 30s as too. And of course, you got Yokch there. I've heard, you know, it's interesting you mentioned Tyler Bay, Kyle, because he's more of that versatile, switchable, modern style big. And the names that I've heard them connected to, you mentioned him in passing there, Arizona, a freshman big, Zeke Dagi. And I've heard they also like Washington Center, Isaiah Stewart.

Those guys sort of fill that more traditional big man position more so than Bay. with this type of roster charts, like you're always like about small ball with a guy like Tyler Bay is somebody like him a better overall, a smarter fit for what they can be to maximize what they can be in the postseason long term rather than maybe one of those more throwback bigs

like Naji or Stewart. Well, to me, I can find a throwback big anywhere. I can get a veteran at the minimum. Like I'm not too worried about that. I think what's interesting about Bay is this. And I'm curious what you all think philosophically, right? Because Bay, you're drafting Bay to fill that, you know, the role everyone wants, that 3-4, swing forward, 3-&D guy. And the question with Bay is the jumper.

So then when you're following these kind of 3-D projects, do you want the guy with the surefire defensive stuff with a questionable jumper? Or do you want the guy with a jumper who has questionable defense? Or do you want the guy without a strength in either category, but kind of is average at both, right? It's like that to me is the question from like 20 to 30, maybe even 18 to 30 is like, what kind of 3-&D guide do you want? because all these teams need that 3-&D guy. Yeah, and I think that he's a fun sort of a, like, when you have a playmaking genius who can pass from every conceivable angle,

you want to just give him toys, basically. And Bay is a great athlete. I think that he could develop into a pretty good cutter and get easy ones and then give you, yeah, I just don't think a whole lot offensively is going to be asked from him in terms of like creation. So to me, he makes sense for the short term. Do you believe his jumper?

Because I want to give Yokic space. more than toys, he needs his space to get his buckets. That's true. That's true. I mean, it depends. He kind of gives me some Rocco vibes in terms of like, I think he could get to a passable point. It's just kind of a question of how quickly or how much you want to believe in that. And Bay did show progress as a shooter this past year. He's somebody that if I'm a team, I'd want to see him in workouts and see how good I feel about the shot mechanically

and how translatable will be to the NBA and, you know, high level basketball in the playoffs, because that's what they got to be. They want to think about that time. Charks, let's move on to your first team. Okay, so I'm going to go with Utah, I think they're right after Denver. And really, I also want to talk about Ramsey. This might be a case where, like, we've had too much time

to evaluate the draft. I'm going over guys again and again. But Ramsey, to me initially didn't stand. Oh, so James, is it James Ramsey? I always forgot to say his name. Jemias, James. Okay, so he's a Texas Tech freshman, 652 guard.

We're just going to go right on through it. His name is Ramsey for our purposes. Okay, so, so Ramsey, Texas Tech freshman 6-5 wing. And the more I watch him, I just love that I don't really see any holes in his game. To me, like the two Texas Tech guys, so he had Zaire Smith and Jared Culver, both those guys just haven't been able to shoot. I look at Ramsey, and I see a guy who knows defense, who has a good body, a good feel for the game, and I like his jumper. So I just think like he checks all the boxes. He's a freshman.

So I say, not only that, I think he has a pretty good feel for the game. He was their secondary ball handler behind Moretti last year, 15 points a game. And I just say, okay, size check, field check, jumper check, defense check. And I see that many check marks for a young player. And if I'm a team like Utah with a good player development system, it's like you've got a really strong foundation. And if you can just push them forward in each category, I think I'll have Ramsey in my top 10, this is all said, done.

in your top 10. I think so. Wow. Okay. So I'm glad you say that because I'm curious here. The last three years the 23rd picks have been Darius Basley, who's been a promising young player for O'KC, Aaron Holliday, who's already a pretty competent rotation point guard with Indiana. And then OGE

and Ovi, who's, you know, awesome. And he's a champion and still probably getting better too on the offensive end of the floor. Does Ramsey fall more into the reliable, you know, he's going to come in right away and contribute bucket like a holiday? Or is he more of the upside player

like a Beasley where you're drafting for long term next to Mitchell with him. See, the reason I like him but I think he falls into both. I think he could play relatively quickly while also having upside as a shot crater four or five years down the line from now. So like you have him top ten, Kyle,

why is he not in everybody's top ten right now? What's holding people back on him? What charks see something that others don't? He missed some time this year, I think. But he also was one of those guys. Charks was he, RSCI like 30 range somewhere in there. Yeah, he's about 30, yeah. Yeah, he's one of those guys that you have to kind of pay attention to. He's not going to be thrown in your face, so he's not like a

buzzy kind of a guy, something I like too, and I don't like mean anything by this, but if you choose to go to Texas Tech, their reputation is established, you know, so that kind of tells you about, they're a team that for people that don't know is like a really strong team defensive teaching. Like, that's what they're about. And I mean, I like that. That's kind of a good sign. That's me reading into that. But I agree, like, lockstep with Charks about. In the short term, I think he could give you some shot creation. And like we've said before, he's built like a truck. He's got shoulders like really, really broad shoulders.

I think his wingspan's like, is it's pretty long, isn't it? I'm pretty sure. I haven't seen his measurements, but I think physically he holds up. And I'll say this. So I was doing, I did a profile on Zier Smith, which feels like, which was like last summer, which is maybe like three years ago now, basically. As I was doing that story, I was talking to Texas tech people. And they were already talking up Ramsey back.

then. They were like, this guy's a for sure one and done, hold this name, just watch out for this guy. So it's been my back of my hand for a while. And I think, I think like if tech had made a run the tournament, we'd be talking a lot more about them, but they didn't. And, you know, obviously, that didn't have a chance to happen. For what it's worth, Kyle, Ramsey measured at the NBA draft combine at six, two and a half barefoot with a wingspan of six six. So not super long, but, you know, not bad by any means. And, you know, with Ramsey, he's somebody I've had a hard time with. there's a lot to like. The streakiness is a shooter, the shot selection I do worry about,

but the upside there is undeniable for sure. And that kind of leads us to the first team. I'm going to choose here, the Portland Trailblazers. They have the 16th pick. You mentioned Ramsey as an option for 23. For Portland, there's a big group of guards that they could choose from here or that a number of teams can choose from, you know, whether it's Ramsey or Tyrese Maxi, Cairo, Lewis, Tyrol Terry, and so on and so forth.

And for Portland, I think you can look in this. one of two ways. You can look at it like, I mentioned this Daverno earlier in the pod that this season, the players in the NBA who ranked first and second per game in minutes were Damien Lillard and C.J. McCollum. So they need another guy who can contribute and alleviate the minutes that those guys and demand that those guys have. And I wouldn't knock them for taking a guard there. However, I'm not sure that need outweighs the need

for a wing. Are you really going to get by the lake or clippers with 35-year-old Trevor Areza and 6'5, Gary Trent. I don't think so. And that's why at that 16th pick, to me, their ideal pick is Villanova's Sadiq Bay. Bay is 6-8, built for the NBA physically and mentally, plays hard, he's switchable, hits threes for you, understands his role, good decision-maker. And if his handle improves, to me, there's some untapped upside there. Casey's interesting to talk about that

because I'm curious what y'all think about and for any Simons. This is a guy, I didn't watch him in the draft, so I've never got a great feel for him. I don't really quite know what he is yet. And talking about getting a guard there, they believe a lot in Simons. Do you see that for them, for him? Simons did not make the

progress last year that you would have hoped for. I wouldn't give up on him. When you drafted Simons, if you're Portland, you knew you're getting a project, you knew you're getting a guy that's going to take time to develop. And part of my thinking here with going for a guy like Bay or one of the other wings in the middle of first round of Neesmith from Villanova is that I think it's harder to find a good wing in free agency

this year than it is to find a guy who can come off the bench and get just some minutes and handle the ball a little bit for you. And plus with Simons, I wouldn't give up on him. I think he can still contribute and I'd want to see him get more opportunity this coming season to be able to do that. Yeah, it's interesting you said Sadiege Bay because over the past few years, they've kind of have had somebody in that role in that sort of archetype like, you know, they had Evan, Evan Turner for a little bit. And then they, I think they kind of expected Bayes more to sort to create or contribute that on like a lower level, but he didn't really, didn't really deliver in the way they wanted to, I guess. Let's not forget Rodney Hood. He had a great playoffs for them

two years ago before he tore as Achilles. And he's a guy that's counting on a lot next year to come back and give him something. Bay is one of those guys where I think every year there's somebody like, like, Charks, I appreciate that you have Ramsey in your top 10 because every year there's somebody that I'm like, I want to rank that dude higher. And I just can't find, you know, a good reason to. Like I had Mitchell 10th and I loved him. I wish I had him high. I liked OG, Charks, you had him top five.

You went all in on him. I wish I ranked him higher than I did. Sometimes you get that right. Like, you know, with those guys, I would have been right to have him wrong. Sometimes you get him wrong. I also wanted to rank Wesley. I wanted you higher. I didn't, which turned out to be the right decision.

But, you know, is there any other players? you know, in this middle of the first round that come to mind as somebody that you're trying to find a good reason to put them higher because Bay, to me, is that guy. I think there's untapped potential for him off the dribble. He's a good decision maker. He can handle a little bit for him. He's not

quick, but he makes smart decisions. And I think, too, like, we got to say, he's a Nova guy. I mean, I know this is kind of lazy, but Nova guys don't bust. Last five years, like Jaylen Brunson, Mikhail Bridges, Eric Paschel last year, Dante DiVincenzo. All these guys drafted mid

to late the second. Nova guys know how to play. Nova doesn't really recruit guys who really think too highly of themselves who won't fit in a role. They're very system-oriented. Like, they have a system. They teach an NBA concepts. They come in right away. Coaches love them. So I think with Bay, the floor is just so high. Because we're talking about this range of players, three and D guys. Most these three-indy guys, man, it might work. It really might not. But Bay, you've got a pretty strong confidence. He'll be an NBA player. Yeah, the schematic stuff you're talking about is really important, I think, is that like these types of players interface with what the NBA is doing super well, like, because they run a lot of stuff where interchangeable ball handlers, you know,

multiple guys can can fill the same role. And it's, it's a situation and a system that sets you up to, uh, to, to be ready for the learning curve of the NBA, which is people underrate that, in my opinion. It's an easy team to scout it from an NBA perspective. Uh, Charles, let's move on to your second team. Okay. So I'm going to say Dallas at 18 here, but really, this is a guy, I think every team in the late first has to look at. And he's kind of the opposite of Sadiq Bay. And that's Robert Woodard in Mississippi State. Ah, I like it.

Okay, so Woodard is like, he's your classic project. This is a guy with this massive wing, like he's built like a freaking truck, great athletic ability. And you're just asking yourself, is that jumper for real? Can he develop as a ball handler? He's very raw. This is like a ball of clay kind of guy that if you hit on him, he's got the frame everybody wants. He's got that big six, seven. and six, eight frame.

7-2 wingspan, 230 pounds. I mean, it's just the physical tools thing with him. And then I remember he actually played Sadiq Bay in a game early in the season. This one I first picked up on him. And he had like three or four like monster dunks. And you're like, what is this guy? But his shot is streaky. He had a small role in offense.

It's a total roll of the dice. And this is a guy, I think Woodard is a classic boom bust. Either he's going to be awesome in five years or his jumper never comes. He's in the G League. I think at some point in this draft, you got to take a guy like that. I don't know where it is exactly. Just to give those numbers, what you said, some context. He attempted only 73-pointers this season as a sophomore at Mississippi State.

Hit 43% of them, but again, only 70. And the free throws are low, too. Exactly. And it's a stiff-looking jumper, too. What's your confidence level with somebody like Woodard, especially in the first round here, like at that pick for Dallas at 18, it's important they get this right. And Woodard is somebody who has that upside to really be an important. player in their rotation. Is there any logic to them looking for one of those secondary creators

or maybe even finding some depth behind Chris Stapps with his health concerns moving forward? Like a Jalen Smith if he's available. Is there any logic to going in a different direction there other than wing despite the importance of a need for wings in the league? See, I would say for the Mavs, you look at it like this, it's just going to be very, very hard for them to find those wings, right? For agency, I can find big somewhere. Secondary playmakers, I I can throw some money at a guard. But like a six, seven, two and 30 pound wing who can guard Kauai and LeBron, like, you're not getting that guy unless you get lucky or you develop him in the draft.

That's my thought process. It's just, it's purely about scarcity and finding that physical specimen because it's just so hard to find. Yeah. I mean, well, what's your confidence level in Woodard as like a, as an attacker off of the, off the catch and the spot up situation? He's shown flashes, but like he's got to have something closing out on him. If they're closing short on him, forget about it.

He's got to have that hard close. So, I mean, you look at like Dorian Finney Smith, and that's the hard part of these guys is like Finney Smith's become a good player, but it took, he was a senior, and it took him three to four years to really develop. And that's just the hard part about it is like that 3&D polished guy you need. It's just so hard to find and it's just hard to develop. Like, there's no great answer there. Charks, we're sending you away because you have an interview to do for a story you're working on.

So we're going to close us out with just me and J. Kelman. Have a good day, Charks. See ya. I don't believe him. Charks known liar. I mean, Charks doesn't lie, Kyle. We know that.

But let's move on to your next team. My next team is the Milwaukee Bucks. The Bucks are, yeah, there's just laughing gas in the air today for some reason. Yeah, the Bucks are in a situation where we all watched it unfold in the playoffs

and we wondered if this was going to happen again. And lo and behold, it did. you know, Kevin, you saw this coming from like 100 miles away that the heat were going to be a terrible matchup for them. And they were and they exposed a lot of their problems. So, you know, the Bucks are in a situation too where they're going to need to, you know, Bledsoe is sort of a really big question mark. And I know you had reported that that's like a fluid ongoing situation. A lot of Bucks fans, I know under the impression that Bledsoe is just kind of. Yeah. Bucks fans want him gone. They want him sent away and Bucks front office would like to trade him. Yeah, they're going to have a parade to the airport. Poor guy. Sorry. Sorry.

Social distancing for the parade, though. Yeah. You know, some of the things that have hurt them in that sense are that, you know, if Bledso can't hit a shot in the playoffs, you know, Janus needs people around him that can hit open shots and create, at least at some level of competency. And otherwise, teams are going to drop into the gaps and sort of negate the things that power Milwaukee's engine.

So, you know, they need to add secondary playmaking. and you're going to be in a tough bind here because teams saw what happened. Everybody knows what happened. So Bledso's leverage, you know, their leverage with Bledsoe in a trade sense is going to be harmed by that because teams know that they don't want to keep him. So in the draft at that spot, you know, they're picking at 24. I don't think that you're going to be able to just one fell swoop make a pick there that's going to solve their problems. I think, in my opinion, you know, they're going to try to split between. some off season moves.

I mean, who do you think is most likely to end up there? That's kind of a, that's kind of an important piece of the puzzle here. I reported this week that they have interest in acquiring either PJ Tucker or Robert Covington from the rockets. Will they be able to get either of those guys? I don't know. But that at least indicates their thought process as we approach the off season starting up next week, that they're looking for that type of wing forward guy. Because by the way, Yonis didn't defend Jimmy Butler.

He did not defend Jimmy Butler. They need a guy who can handle that matchup. So they're clearly looking out for that, whether it's through the draft or free agency or a trade. Yeah, I'd heard people talk about Patty Mills, too, which I thought was an interesting one. Sixers like Patty Mills from the Spurs to Bucks as well, possibly.

See, I said Patty Mills to the Sixers back around the trade deadline, and people were like, what? I thought that made so much sense. And now Sixers fans are into it. Come on, Sixers fans. I also said the Sixers should draft Shea and keep Mikkel Bridges. But we're not going to go. there, Chris Ryan.

So he loves when I bring that up. So, yeah, I'm thinking that you need to draft the most competent, well-rounded, you know, really just kind of like a ball handler that can run some pick and roll, can hit open shots, can get into lane, as good an athlete as you can get. I think you need to just pick the most versatile offensive player that you can that's ready to play. The guy that I've kind of been leaning towards here is Malachi Flynn. I feel like he's a guy that's going to be ready to play in the short term.

he's going to be a guy that can shore up some of your, you know, mid to late rotation minutes. And then, you know, like I said, you're going to be kind of pairing, replacing what Bloodsoe did in the aggregate a little bit. So there are a lot of guards who could end up in this late 20s to mid 40s range. And just to rattle through a couple of the names. There's Nico Mannion, Devin Dodson, Malachi Flindoo you said, Ramsey, who we just talked about, Trey Jones, Madar, Winston, Riller,

Peyton Pritcher. There's a lot of guys in that group. is Flynn, you know, we already talked about Ramsey. So besides him, is Flynn the guy that you feel the most confidence in to be a successful NBA player of that big clump of guards that we're going to see late first, early second? I'm not going to act like I'm like a stand for him. I think you just kind of situationally are looking at it. And like we were saying with Verno a couple weeks ago, it's like that's the most competitive spot in the world. So if you're going to take somebody there, you need to have some pretty high confidence in them.

But a question would be Malachi Flynn is like 22 and a half years old. Nico Mannion is like just a little over 19. You know, if you put them in the same age bracket there, if they're the same age and consider where Mannion's going to be, Maine's a little bit bigger, I think actually, maybe a shade taller. I don't know if he's the same level of athlete, but what do you think about that? What would you feel in the future? Just looking forward. Flynn is somebody who has certainly risen through this entire six-month pre-draft process.

Teams, I mean, I remember months ago, nobody really talked about him as a first-round draft pick. And now I feel a lot of confidence that he will be a first-round draft pick. It's just a matter of where. And with him, it's understandable why. The reason why I wanted to talk about this today is because there are a lot of teams drafting in the late first that have an opportunity to get somebody who can contribute right away, somebody who can help their rotation and bolster what they want to be in the postseason. And Flynn is one of those guys. He plays hard on defense. He's such a smart player. And not a big guy, you know, only six foot one,

not a long wing span, but he knows how to defend. He knows how to facilitate for you on the offensive end of the floor, can deliver accurate on target passes for you, can shoot from the perimeter as well for you. He's not going to be a star, but he does fit the idea. of what a Bucks need, what a Sixers need, what even a Lakers could need if they were to lose Rondo. And that's why somebody like him has risen up the rankings here, because these teams drafting in the late first see somebody who may not be a star, but can help you early on. And there's a lot of value in that to have somebody like that on a rookie deal. Yeah, definitely.

And I think if you watch the Bucks, especially against Miami, what they ran up against was Miami was just an insanely flexible team defensively quick. And they just, they made, they made Milwaukee look slow and old, honestly. You know, you would get a situation where Janus would drive into a wall and then they would, you know, kick, swing, swing, swing, and it wouldn't be an open shot. So you've got to be in a situation where if you're swing, swing, swing, and somebody is not open, you have to be able to attack right there and, you know, attack that imbalance as the defense is rotating. And I think you need somebody confident in that spot.

You mentioned they looked old and slow. they kind of were. You know, Brooke Lopez is in his early 30s, George Hill is in his mid-30s, you know, Kyle Corver's in his late 30s, West Matthews and is in his 30s. A lot of older guys on that roster. And for the Bucks,

it's going to be fascinating to see which direction did they go here. Like, do they package that pick, you know, with Bledso for a Tucker type of thing? Is that what they end up doing? Like, where would you go here if you're in the Bucks front office And John Horace asks you, you know, like, Kyle, what should we do here?

So Janus doesn't leave us in a year. What do we do? I mean, like, are you trying to make a win now move for Tucker? Or do you think taking the long view here and finding a younger guy and finding another home for Bletso is a, is a, would give you a better opportunity of keeping Janus long term? Yeah. I mean, that's the other way that I think you have to look at it is, you know, you got a title window here. And they, that's just kind of looming over the situation. you know, probably the second, I would say the second best player in the history of the franchise.

Well, you know, Oscar, Kareem, Janice, you can, we can argue about that. Let's say of this current century that were right. Yeah, I brought that up. Since 2000. I was like, oh, that's actually kind of a hotbed discussion. But, yeah, I mean, this guy is, you know, critically important to the franchise, to the city, if we're being honest. So I could, that's the other way that you could look at it is, you know, do we feel like we can get enough bang

right here to, and do we have the luxury to wait for somebody? You know, I don't think that you're going to be waiting around for Malachi Flynn to become something. I'm not saying that that's what they're going to do. I just think that they need to take the most offensively versatile player there. I think whether it's a PG type, whether it's a wing type, you know, the best, most versatile player. And yeah, I don't know that you're going to have somebody at that spot that can fulfill your needs soon enough. So I could see why you would think about trading the pick in that scenario. We'll move on to my second team and the last team we'll talk about today. And that's the Los Angeles Lakers. The reason why I wanted to talk about them is because it's, you know, we've heard the

rumors about Rondo possibly getting courted by the Clippers. You know, he could potentially leave. He could get paid somewhere else. And, you know, it's critical for them to find shock creation behind LeBron James, especially if Rondo does leave, you know, one of those guys, like a Malachi Flynn that could contribute right away is Oregon Senior Point Guard, Peyton Pritchard, who I've heard, this came as a surprise to me this past week. I've heard from two different sources that Pritchard has a promise in the late first round. And I don't know where it is. I have him to the Raptors in my current mock drafts. Maybe it could be the Lakers. Maybe it could be the Bucks. Who knows? But to me, Pritchard is another guy like a Flynn that fits that same type

of thing we're just talking about where he's somebody who's like a Fred Van Vleet style, 6-2 on the smaller side, but this dude is a winner. The way he plays, he hits tough shots, makes smart plays, plays super hard on defense. And if Rondo does leave, or even if he stays, despite all the intangibles that he has, I'm still not convinced despite all we saw. Like, I don't know if he's going to shoot 40% from three again for you. For long term here, you know, when LeBron gets older, when he needs more help. When he's ready to dig on Rondo? Is that what you're, are you, shots fired? You got to have a younger point guard in there and Peyton Pritchard, somebody who can come in right away on his rookie deal. And you can rely on him to come off your bench and, you know, give LeBron a breather here and there.

In addition to Caruso, though, you think. So that's who he would, would he be battling with Caruso? Yeah, I mean, Cruso to me, I mean, like, I love Caruso. I love Caruso. You know, we made that big video on him for the restart during the summer, way underrated. And I'm glad he proved himself in the postseason. But he's still not like that facilitator type. he's best suited in that off ball roll cutting you hope his spot-up shooting improves but he's not like

a lead creator off your bench and to me that's where pritchard is one of those guys of that group we mentioned you know maybe it's trey jones maybe it's devon dotson maybe it's nico mani yamadar kashis winston or malachi flynn it's that type of guy that makes a lot of sense for me at the lakers pick at number 28 yamadar is an interesting one that you don't hear people talk about enough another Israeli kid. He really showed up to me when I was watching closely the Israeli national teams and watching Maccabi play.

I forget Yom's team in the Israeli league, but there was this little wiry, long kid checking Denny full court. I mean, wearing his butt out, like really on him. And I was like, who is, what is going on? And that was like the first time that I really paid attention to Yamadar. Do you have sort of a flying 35,000 feet view of his game? What do you think about him?

I mean, with Madar, you mentioned him defending Avdia. The defensive ability for him is, I mean, he's intense. He really bust his butt on the defensive end of the court and he can pass. He's intuitive on the court. I think he has great vision. You know, there's certain passers that are better, you know, distributing the ball to one side of the court. I think he has sort of that 360 vision and the ability to manipulate defenders with his eyes and his movements. The question with him will be, what level does the jump shot reach?

He shot 27% this past season on a low, you know, 86 three-point attempts, but he shot above 80% from the free throw line. Again, only 85 attempts. But there are positive indicators for his jumper. I've heard he's a hardworking kid who loves basketball, like genuinely loves basketball and wants to be as great as he can at the game. And there hasn't been a lot of talk about him as a first-round pick, but I wouldn't be against it, not with his foundation,

with defense and playmaking. If the jumper, you know, develops for him, he's going to be a good player, a really good player. Yeah, first round's pretty high. I think somebody could snag him, you know, a second or later. But yeah, yeah, he's a player that you don't really hear people mention very much. I was curious to see what you thought about it.

Like motor like a jet engine, that kid. Oh, my. I mean, that, that dude hustles constantly. And this sort of is what makes this draft to me better than it gets credit for. There are a lot of guys in this draft that we're going to look back, Six years from now, I'll be like, oh, yeah, this 2020 draft had a lot of good role players that contribute to winning. And whether it's Yamadar or Malachi Flynn or Robert Woodard, you know, I think a lot of those guys are going to develop in the NBA and turn into something. Kyle, we'll be back next week after the draft.

I'm not sure which day our pod will go up, but we'll be talking about everything that we see throughout the week and draft and I look forward to having you on. It'll be fun. Yeah, can't wait, man. Thanks for having me. Thank you, everybody, for listening today's episode of The Mismatch with me, Chris Vernon, Jake Allman and Jonathan Charks. And thank you to Sasha for producing the show. Please give us a rating, a five-star rating, if you're listening on iTunes,

and be sure to follow us if you're listening on Spotify. See you all next Tuesday. Have a great weekend.