The Ringer NBA Show - The Russ-vs.-Harden Debate, and Anthony Davis's Unbelievable Season | Group Chat (Ep. 224)

Episode Date: March 8, 2018

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier are joined by Haley O'Shaughnessy to check in on the revitalized Cavs (3:20), DeMar DeRozan's MVP candidacy (10:45), and mid-tier playoff contenders, including the Pelicans and 76ers (20:15). Then Jason Concepcion stops by to talk Russ vs. Harden (37:55). Links: Kevin O'Connor on The End of The Spurs Dynasty Jason Concepcion on Russ vs. Harden Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show group chat is brought to you by State Farm. A State Farm agent has the knowledge and experience to anticipate your needs. And with State Farm, you get more than just an agent. You get a teammate that gets what matters most to you. Go to StateFarm.com to get an agent that gets you. Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show is also brought to you by Yahoo! You know what time it is! Bracket time.

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Before we get started with today's Ringer NBA show, group chat, want to tell you about a couple things happening on the Ringer. You should check out Kevin O'Connor's article about the Spurs and possibly being the end of this glorious run for the Spurs dynasty. This was a hotly debated topic in our office when Kev first brought this up. But, you know, with the Kauai stuff over the last couple of months and with somewhat of an aging core, some young pieces that are approaching free agency, it's a real turning point time for this franchise. And Kevin kind of breaks it down from every level, both what they

have going for them and what they have going against them. So definitely check out is the Spurs. Is this the end of the Spurs dynasty by Kevin O'Connor on the ringer.com? And if you want to keep up on the world of basketball, both pro and college, the Ringer podcast network is where you need to be. Ringer NBA show almost every day of the week. Draft class, heat check. Kevin and Vernon on Tuesdays. Sources say every other Wednesday and group chat, of course, every Thursday. And then March Madness is here and so are one shining podcast guys. Tate and Titus pretty much constantly. If they're not on video, they're on the podcasts and they'll be with you throughout all of the NCAA tournament to keep you up to date on what you need to know and what you need to think about March

Madness. So check that out. Now let's get into the ring. Ringer NBA show group chat. Basketball is very good. The Raptors are the best team in the east. Phil Jackson actually saved the Knicks. Mark L. Fultz will be an all-star next year. Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show.

It's group chat. I'm here with Justin Varyer. Hi there. Haley O'Shaughnessy. Is Louisville winning right now? We still have an Academy Awards hangover. We're just so obsessed with Get Out and Shape of Water. Yeah, I've just been banging out those rom-coms and those middle-tier dramas.

That's right. Middle-tier dramas for you, Haley. Are we still talking about the cabs? No, we're talking about Louisville now. Middle-tier drama. No, guys, come on. It's NBA season. Tanking season.

It's getting ready for the playoffs time. This is always a little bit of a quiet period for the NBA. You know, we were kind of like not quite independent race. Although seating is really interesting right now because you've got so many teams that are bunched up between like three and nine, three to eight. We're going to talk about a couple of those teams that are in that middle tier that we're obsessed with right now. They're not necessarily good, but we're obsessed with them. And we're also going to have Jason Concepcion who's going to come talk to us about his really awesome James Hardin versus Russell Westbrook. The argument is over piece that ran on Wednesday, I believe.

But first, let's get to a little bit of the more recent happenings in the NBA. And the calves are back, Haley. Are they back? Back? The calves are... Back to which calves. Well, this is my thing. All new calves.

A bouncy, happy, athletic calves. I still think they shoot too many threes. I'm starting to develop a theory in my mind that people are shooting too many threes. What do you guys think about that? I think that last week you just said how much you hated watching the rockets. I think you just hate math is what it comes down to.

Maybe I just... I think I've seen too many times recently people on fast breaks, teams on fast breaks, passing up, making an extra pass for a layup to get like an above the break three. Yeah. There are a lot of teams that are prioritizing just easier shots

for the added value of a three pointer these days. I think the math works out though that that's in better shot. I guess. Are we, so we're talking about this. Am I relitigating this? Well, in successive weeks,

you've talked about putting guys on the floor in hard fouls and now you're talking about not taking three. I have. Am I getting old in front of you guys' eyes? Kind of. Oh, my gosh. No, I want to talk about the calves who were just, they looked really bouncy last night. They beat the Nuggets 113, 101.

LeBron, incredible LeBron game. He's out of the MVP discussion, right? We're not, it's just too much hardened. They're probably just not going to win enough. And unlike Anthony Davis, even though the pelicans have about the same amount of wins, he obviously has the late momentum going for him. He had 39, 10, and 8 last night scored the last nine points. Larry Nance, Jr. is kind of negating the need for Tristan Thompson to be there.

and I was reading on Reddit today, there was some interesting stuff about how basically, after all of this, after Karii leaving, after IT for only a little while, after only a little of Kevin Love this season, that the Cavs numbers have kind of leveled out to where they should be

and where they were last year. And that, you know, the big thing is that last... At this time last year? It was basically since the trade, the 10 games or whatever that they've had, all these guys, that the metrics pretty much are around where they should be,

more or less, for Cavs basketball. LeBron last night told Cassie Hubbard that he thinks he's playing like he's at an all-time high in terms of how he's feeling. That's amazing. Yeah, great reference for his own play. Well, she did ask him. I mean, it's not like he was just like, I want to weigh in on the Black Panther soundtrack for the first let me talk about where I feel like I am in terms of how I'm playing.

That's his entire Instagram though, so we know that. You guys both watched this game last night. What did you see from the Cavs that you liked and is there anything you saw that you didn't like? It's funny that you already said bouncy twice because that was the first word that came to my mind when I knew that we were going to be talking about Nance. He's so much more energetic by himself than like anything we saw on the Cavs all season. Yeah. It is so much fun to see LeBron with young guys. I don't know why it wasn't a bigger push for that before.

I think because LeBron does not like playing it with young guys generally. Yeah, but I would argue, well, generally maybe, but this team he definitely does. He's so happy every time like he dished. it inside and like Nance puts it up for a huge junk. He's so happy every time Jordan Clarkson does anything. Like he's his biggest fan. Like they're all LeBron darlings now. And he's like, I just feel like he's really playing like he's happy again, which, you know, is good if you're LeBron James and you can do whatever you want. It's where he's gone from peers to protéges. Yeah. It's gone from like all my friends to all these guys who probably grew up watching me. Yeah, we know

that he loves that. You know, I don't think it was calling Kyrie like my son. You know what I mean? Whereas these guys are like, yeah, I'm literally probably old. And Kyrie's like, parenthood is just a construct man. Periods of Proses. That was beautiful. Thanks. Right top. Melonda Minsk over here. Yeah, I think we talked about it right when the trade went down.

Like, Nance just makes so much sense as a five next to LeBron in today's day and age. Just because he's so athletic, he's a rim runner. And you could see that they're able to do more defensively when he's out there. So they have been bouncy, if that's the word of the day. Sure. I'm still a little concerned. I think we're going through almost like condensed cycles of panic. It's two, two, two, two. Yeah.

And I was looking up just like who they've beat since the All-Star break. They've only won four games. The first three teams that they beat are combined two and 20 after the break and Denver's four and four. So I'm still waiting for them to beat a team of like, of worth.

Yeah. To really make me see like that they can compete on a level of the Toronto Raptors, let's say. But, you know, there are signs. There are signs that they can't put it together because of some of the guys that they got. I think all my excitement that I was just talking about and maybe Chris for you too is not that I'm like, oh, now they can get back to where they should be like one seed.

They'll make it to the finals for sure. I think my excitement is just relative because I kind of saw like all year Tristan Thompson wasn't really the rim protector. He was in a couple seasons before. And, you know, it was like confusing that Kevin Love was making more sense because not that it's confusing because he can't stretch a four and that's great. But like he can't play defense. So where are we going with this when it comes time for the playoffs?

and someone has to play defense in the front court. It was a catastrophically bad. It was so bad. And then when IT came back and we were like, this is the height. This is what we've been waiting for at the point guard position among all these old guys who play like 12 minutes each. So I think relatively I'm like, great.

Now you guys might be able to do something. They're watchable again, which is a huge step. I think before they were getting when they would lose, it was because they were getting their doors absolutely blown off by the opposing offense. And now it seems to be more like if the shots are falling, if they're hitting their threes, they're probably going to win. And if they're not, it's up to LeBron to completely create a win.

I think the biggest surprise is just that Larry Nance seems to be the best move Kobe Alvin's made in his entire stint, which is only a year now, but it has seen a lot of high usage from Kobe Alman. I wonder how the Brooklyn pick will play out. That's interesting. I also think the biggest question going forward is, like, where does Love fit in? Not only if they get the Brooklyn pick and LeBron comes back, but we'll know. Like, what about late in the season? Yeah, it's strange how the Cavs have sort of,

with all the awards talk, we were talking a little bit about MVP, if the Cavs make it to the finals again, I don't know when the coach of the years voted on. And it's not like I'm like enamored with Ty Loo necessarily, but LeBron and Ty Loo getting this team back to a finals, given what this team has gone through over the season, would be sort of unbelievable.

LeBron and Tyloo? Well, because if Tyloon can figure out what the rotation should be to bring Kevin Ler, love back for the playoffs and if he can figure out who we can trust in the playoffs. And the strange thing is that we haven't had I think there's been like one or two good hood games. But George Hull has been

scoring like, he's not like nine points last night I saw I saw some stuff from Hudd. From Hudd. What did you see? Not like great stuff but it was just like a nice ability to like pull up inside the lane, hit a jumper. It's just I mean in Utah I was like okay

either played too infrequently or they decided like we got to bring him off the bench, like to really see anything. But I understand why people are so high on this potential. I'm not personally, but like, yeah, he could definitely help. Yeah, that's kind of the book on hood, right? It's just like he shows flashes, but he can never put it together for an entire season. So we're talking about LeBron possibly being an MVP, like whether or not LeBron is,

is in the conversation for him? He's obviously always in the conversation, but is it too late for him to make a push? One person who never really, I think, got the due possibly because they share back court duties with Kyle Lowry, is the more to really? Rosen as an MVP candidate this year. He does one specific thing that is not highly valued except for people like me who don't like three-pointers and enjoy a shivering forearm to the lane.

I love mid-range jumpers from classic shooting guards. That's my new bit. The Raptors are obviously very real. They are the first team to clinch a playoff position. They would beat the pistons in overtime last night, 121 to 119. DeRosen had 42, including what should have been the greatest game-winning shot of all time,

a coast-to-coast. Kaylee didn't see this, so I'm going to describe it as if it's on the radio. I did. I did. Just not live. Newsflash. Damada Rosen goes coast to coast with a two-handed gem. But the Pistons took it to overtime. This is kind of sad because it was a sort of Blake's season in a nutshell. Blake played really well last night. It had like he had two game tying shots to keep the game going. And it didn't matter. Fred Van Vleet came through with that corner three. Speaking of peers and protégés, it's been really nice watching Lowry and de Rosen kind of become the elder statesman on this. on this Raptors team

and like bringing along some of these younger players just really exciting team the vibes are good also low key home game for them in Detroit right a lot of Toronto fans damn they really filled up this Detroit gym

way to go and I was like oh these guys are all cheering for the Raptors that new arena has some problems man they treated for Blake it seems like in large part because of that they needed to fill that arena there's nobody ever there I said to someone last night

like I bet you they had all the people from the higher bowl just sit in those pretty CMC just so it's embarrassed. There's nothing worse than when Phoenix is on national television and there's like 11 people in the lower bowl. I know. And it sounds like there are people in the gym, but it's just like nobody's in the lower bowl. Where is the Pistons facility located now? Because it was in Auburn Hills, but where is it now? Their arena is downtown. Oh, okay. Yeah. So all the people who actually like went to Pistons games live in the suburbs. Yeah. I think they have had trouble recently drawing, but I think their idea was we put it downtown.

We can we can kind of get everybody involved and they have a nice new arena. And, We could sell that to people, but really hasn't done much in that market. Even during Blake's debut, I remember being like... Yeah, it was tough. Yeah. To be fair, it was a little surprising. People might have to have plans on a Wednesday night in Detroit. They didn't know.

Didn't he come and then they had two days? Yeah, I know. I'm just saying, you know, in Detroit, you get a plan a week or two out. It's very, very Pelicans-esque where it's like they tried to rush the process a little bit. Yeah. And they just made a big trade, hoping that they can make an impact right away. But you look at the Pelicans crowd, they're still trying to like kind of adapt to basketball and that team. The Raptors are,

47 and 17 and they are, you know, are they three games? Are they just a couple of inches behind the Rockets on the Warriors? Or are they still in a different world? I think it's hard to compare the two. Is it? Yes. They play all the same. I understand what you're saying,

but I want to know why we can't conceive of them being in that group. I think actually part of it is that what we see the Rockets doing. Yes, that like both Chris Paul and James Hardin have had trouble in the, postseason apart from each other. But I think that seeing them play together so well along with Clint Capella is kind of like erase that stigma in my mind. Whereas for the Raptors, it's still very real. And that's actually like something that I'm hoping goes away for both of them because they

have played so well. Yeah. Better defense than both the Rockets and the Warriors. Oh, absolutely. It really just comes back to we've seen some stuff. Not to really like a joke Game of Thrones on you now when you're in your offseason. But like it's a classic Game of Thrones line. we've seen some stuff.

Oh, I was going to get there. I was setting up. We were looking to their eyes, Chris. I'm building dramatic tension. I'm sorry. John Snow, I've seen some stuff. Seriously, I've seen some stuff. I've got to glimpse into the next season's scripts.

Okay. But no, I mean, they have a great point differential, but it looks like their team overall is just built for regular season's success. When we look at the Warriors and the Rocket specifically, and even the calves, and we say, hey, they have, have the top tier stars and we know that's what matters in the playoffs. Like we spend so long in the

regular season. It's like what, six months, let's say. And it's just kind of a different game in the postseason. And I'm at the point now where it's like, that's why I'm probably so down on the Raptors is I know that it's going to be different enough to where like they have they have to prove that in that set. Why do you say that you think that they spent, they're too dependent on their bench? Yeah, there's a lot of that. And I don't think their superstars are as good as other superstars. Not to be super reductive, but to a certain extent, like the NBA does come down to your best players.

Yeah, and then especially in a seven-game series, you'll see that kind of thing. The margins is literally, is Lowry? Is playoff Leroy here, or is it regular season? I think I would almost argue it's more D'Mar.

I think we need to see, like, DeMarr do that. I just feel like I've seen something different from him, not only the killer instinct to do something like he did last night, which I think he used to be like this volume, mid-range scorer who would dominate the ball. And now I just feel like he has, has taken it. I actually do think he's taken the leap.

And I do think that seeing something like that last night of him going close to coast and yamming on Tolover is, you know, it's like a fun moment and it's a fun video. But it's also like, oh, like, you're not going to let them lose. Like, if you, if you feel like you need to get down the court in 4.5 seconds and jam it, like, to win this game, like, you're going to do that. And I'm really impressed with them. They're, all the numbers, I mean, they're just doing the only thing you can ask them to do, which is dominating their conference. They have a top, what, top 10 offense and defense, right? And they're, they're playing at the same level that the Rockets and Warriors are. They're just not getting any

of the respects. I completely understand the proved to me in the spring idea. I feel the same way about the Rockets, frankly. So, I mean, that was just me getting another dig in. There's also the, okay, you guys are playing against East competition most of the time, which is. I got to be honest, I'm not, that doesn't bother me as much this year. Me either. I, I, I, I, I'm not, that doesn't bother me as much this year. Me either. I feel like there's some crappy Western Conference teams or there's some teams in the Western Conference who can be crappy on any given night. I'm trying to be crappy.

Yeah. Like you got to see Embed, you got to see Yannis, you got to see whatever Wizards team you happen to see that night. And the Pacers are no pushovers. Like, I don't feel like the East is as like much of a doormat conference as it is last year. And I think that there are some teams in the Western Conference from like any given night

you guys can suck. Right. I think one of the interesting questions is like, what do we want from the finals? Like who do we want as just from a fan's perspective to represent the East. Is it better for a team like the Raptors, who's new and fresh and has something to prove against someone like the Rockets of the Warriors? Or do we want to see another?

And if it's Raptors, Houston, does L.A. get to claim it? Because of, like, DeMargo and USC, Paul playing for the Clippers, Harden coming from California. Is that like an L.A. finals all of a sudden? Yeah, absolutely. I think the Raptors would be fun. Yeah. I think in a weird way,

that's what I really want for the NBA finals this year is some new something new. Well just the consequences and the meaning of that finals would be so huge to have the Raptors playing the Rockets and to have it not be a LeBron and Curry-Durant finals. I'm fairly certain. I think the raptors are going to go.

Last season there was even kind of like a post-depression after the Warriors won. Even though they won and we were like, God, they're so good. It was like, oh, God, they're so good. And they're going to be there for the next four seasons until somebody decides they want more money. And so that was kind of like,

oh, it's not going to be as interesting next season because we know who's going to win. So seeing the rockets there would be huge. Yeah, I would love to see the rockets there, or excuse me, the Raptors just because of like it's a new thing and that'd be fun. I like new experiences. Also, you know that Toronto, like the arena of the city

would just be, it would be like at a fever pitch. It would be so awesome to see. see that happen to that city. A lot of bargains and coupons at Tim Hortons that people could take advantage of. Maple logs. But at the same time, I look back at some of the finals and like when one elite team wins a finals and doesn't face the other elite team from the other conference, we're always like, oh, they avoided that team. It's kind of a knock on their title. Astrocks. Yeah. And so I don't like that. So, I mean, if it was Rockets, uh, calves, just to see that sort of dynamic play out with the Rockets taking over the Warriors and kind of entering a new era, that'd be nice. All right. Well, we're going

to talk about some teams that probably won't make the finals. In just a minute, we'll be back afterward from our sponsors. Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show Group Chat is brought to you by State Farm with over 19,000 state farm agents nationwide. You can get an agent that gets you as well as Paul George gets Russell

Westbrook, which is the focus of the ringer's new NBA relationship goals video. Now, I thought this was really interesting because obviously the Thunder have had an up and down season, but on the fly, Russ and PG have sort of developed this incredible chemistry Paul George is the perfect foil for Russell.

He plays well off the ball. He's an incredible defensive player. His defense has been the bedrock of the Thunder's elite defense this season. And there'll be a really interesting team come to playoffs. We talk about that at the end of today's show. Be sure to check the video on the ringer.com or the ringer's YouTube channel. It's YouTube.com slash the ringer or the Facebook or our Twitter. And remember, like teammates on the court, a relationship with a State Farm agent sets you up for success off the court. Go to statefarm.com to get an agent that gets you.

And now back to the Ringer NBA show. Guys, we're back. Haley, Justin, Chris, group chat. We'll be joining a little bit by Jason Concepcion to talk about James Hardin and Russell Westbrook. But right now, I want to talk about a bunch of these teams that are kind of grouped together in their respective conferences between three and nine.

And in the East, I think that the bucks are going to have to lose every game to not make the playoffs with the eight seed, which makes them kind of a terrifying eight seed. Oh, yeah. And we can talk about that if we want. but I wanted to touch on a couple of these teams that are in that 3, 4, 5 range that you can't quit. There's something about them that you're just kind of, they're engaging and interesting on a nightly basis. Haley, you just got done writing about the Nuggets.

I think that that'll probably be up by the time people hear this pod. Fingers crossed. But why don't you tell me a little bit about what you were curious about about the Nuggets and what makes them so interesting to you? So I don't think they're going to make the playoffs. Even though Danny Chow pointed out to me that the rest of their schedule is relatively easy, they should have opportunities to get there. I think that there's conflicting ideals going on there, especially since Millsaps come back because we've seen how Yokic typically thrives, right?

And that's kind of playing fast, up tempo. He likes to freestyle. and uses high basketball IQ to, you know, create these amazing assists. He's really active and cutting and really good at it. He likes to back people down.

Obviously, that doesn't translate to great defense, which I think has crushed Malone a lot. All last season, he had to run with this. I mean, he inherited a very, a team that was built to be fast-paced. And so I think that, you know, last season when he was like,

okay, I got Millsap, I got Plumley. This is great. Like we can finally kind of adjust and do both. And so I think that in January, when Plumley was out, Millsap was still out, he said, we're going to, I'm going to let them have the reins a little bit more. I'm not going to play as many. I'm not going to call as many plays.

That's when they went on the 7-2 run, right? And then he started calling more plays again with Millsap. And he actually said, these are, I'm running these to play to Mil-Sap strengths. He wants him to, you know, post up. The ball's not running through Yokic as much. The thing is, it's like, I think that Yokic was trying in the beginning. They've played five games together since Milsap came back.

I think he was definitely trying in the beginning. And it's frustrating. And, I mean, he's down to, like, really weird, like, attempted shots, except for last night against Cleveland when he scored 32. Paul, yeah. Yeah. And I think that he became like really unhappy and distant. Paul Millsap did or Mike Mullen did?

No, Yokic. Oh. And that's why he was, I mean, he took like five shot attempts one game. He took nine another game. So I think it's really frustrating for him. And if you watch him, it's mostly like he gets the ball. He passes it away. Yeah.

I think they kind of embraced the uptempo we're going to outscore you identity right before Millsap came back. And it seemed like they had had. a mocko of success that way. It seems like like you were saying it played into what Yokic was doing. And now they just seem kind of at odds with each other. It certainly plays into into what young players are capable of. It's like, you know, like Gary Harris and Jamal Marie and Yokic are probably happy to see, not disparaging them personally, but are probably happy to see inflated scoring numbers, right? Like both for contract purposes and just for self like identity

purposes. And young teams typically, I mean, Ryan Roussell was just talking about this the other day about the Sixers, but like young teams just don't know how to play defense. The bad defensive teams in this league tend to be younger. They tend to be the teams like the Kings. They tend to be teams like the magic. No matter who's coaching them, whether it's Yeager or Vogel or Mike Malone. Yeah, Tibbs. Yeah, exactly.

Like these guys, it takes a lot of learned NBA defensive concepts to understand some of the more complicated ideas about helping weak side stuff and everything else. And, you know, you can have Sammy a Gundy's screaming form a fucking ball all you want, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to do it. And you're right. now they've got this more of a rigid half court situation going. Yokic might be the first unicorn

that I think needs another unicorn. You know, with all these other guys, and we're going to talk about the Pelicans in a second, you're like, this is going to happen. Like, this will, if he stays healthy and they get the right pieces around him, this will happen. This guy will be like an all-MBA player. Yokic is the one who I'm like,

you're really cool. But I don't know whether you, can be the best player on a team. Sure. Well, part of his, he's only playing half of the court. Yeah. Like all these other unicorn, and they have the ability to be defensive stoppers.

They're kind of potentially anchors for those defense. Towns, AD, Janus. You said potential, right? Yes, potentially. Yeah. I was like, cow. Not towns, but the other two for sure are definitely up there. But with Jokish, like,

he's deadlifting somewhere. Yokish might be always the worst defender on your team, and you really have to overcome that, which is why Millsap raises their, ceiling, but now they're kind of adjusting to that, where they had something that worked versus what something that could work better but isn't right now. Yeah, he, Yokic could be, like, upgraded Kevin Love. Like, he, he's got passing instincts that are essentially, like, you know, unparalleled.

To me, I mean, even Sabonis wasn't even this good as a passer, I don't think. In terms of, like, just as a, his court vision. Are you, right? Which Subonis. Arvonis, DeVonis, I have not spent that much time with the tapes, you know? But yeah, I think that he needs something else going on. His defense is also just like, who knows what it would be if he was really committed. But he is so not committed.

You know, he stands in the middle. He'll like walk over. It's like his arms go up after somebody already passed it. It's just like so rough to watch. And I'm sure for Malone it's like very frustrating. Yeah, you think he's because he's big, he's going to be a rim protector, but he's really like slow laterally. I don't know if he has much of a vertical leap.

Yeah. I don't know if he has great instincts on that end. So you're really going to have to overcome that. And if like you're built around a Yokic Jamal Murray team. Gary Harris team. Yeah. Like, but Murray specifically not that great of a defender.

This is the interesting question too. Is like you watch the Raptors over the last five years. They've obviously taken a huge leap forward this season by sticking with a certain core and tinkering around. I mean, even Valentinas is part of that core that they've had in place for a long time. If you're the nuggets, do you have the patience and, Is this team exciting enough and is Mike Malone a good enough coach where you're like, I think we can just grow with Yokic Harris and Murray.

And we'll have a Millsap type figure who are bringing in a good veteran every year. And maybe finally they can get some bench turnover where they've had guys like Farid and Chandler on that team for years and not done anything with them when I think they've probably all gone past their sell-by date. It's just an interesting experiment. Another team that is pretty experimental at this point is the red. hot New Orleans Pelicans. Hey now. Justin's wearing a King Baby Cake t-shirt, but I'm the big bird.

I went and saw the Pelicans play the Clippers live this week. And not to be smokes weed once, guys. Well, holy shit, Anthony Davis. Yeah, pretty good. I've never seen him live. Oh. And I was fucking impressed. Yeah, I feel like such like the wet blanket in the Slack chats.

I was like, oh, yeah, I've seen this already. I know. I mean, you basically were on the beat for a while. that some of some of his first two seasons. The past two seasons. The past two seasons. So I didn't know that he was probably, he was probably the best shooting guard

on the floor against the clippers. On the entire court, he was, and the thing that's really cool about him is it's not like, oh, somebody let the big guy dribble. Like he got like low to the ground and was like actually like looking at angles and, and his stroke, I think he could probably just take 10, 3s a game.

and make half of them maybe? Yeah, he's just, he's not as comfortable with it as like you'd expect, but he shot is perfect for it. Nice shot. And you're just kind of like, well, nobody could ever get a hand up. So like, why not maybe just do that all game? Yeah. This is now this wildly funky team. I don't, I mean, you know, Bill tweeted something today that suggested there was a Ewing theory

involved with cousins, I think. They've basically not, I don't think they've lost since Boogie went out, have they? I think they've lost, but they haven't lost since the break. Yeah, they're 12 and 5 since Boogie went down. So, yeah, that's right. I don't think it's 100% ewing theory, though. I think it's that Anthony Davis is like, you know what, I'm fucking doing this.

They're just going to them more. It's that. And it's, it's, it's maybe this is the offense gentry always should have been running. This is my favorite take. You do it. It's your take. No, no.

No, because I feel like it's like I'm like, I've showed up and it's like, you've been watching a band for 20 years. And I'm like, this band is awesome. Here's what they do. You can still appreciate the solos. Okay. Just go ahead. All right.

No, I think for the longest time, they had to make the DeMarcus Cousin's trade. It made too much sense. It also saved a lot of their jobs potentially. Yeah. It raises their ceiling to another level because in today's NBA, there's just no one that can combat

the AD boogie sort of dynamic. I'd still think that AD is at his best as a stretch five in today's NBA, especially if you look at him. I was watching that Clippers game from afar. He's big, man. He is very big. He's almost as big as Deandry Jordan these days.

And like, there were centers like Carol just bouncing off that dude. But if you do not make the Cousins trade, let's say, and you commit to Elvin Gentry's system and his vision for AD1 and for the team in general, now you're looking at, let's say they just tanked and they got another draft

pick. You're looking at, let's say Lonzo Ball, you're looking at Drew Holiday, a wing, Anthony Davis, and Meritich. And you still have buddy and you still have Tariq Evans. Well, you have to bring him back probably on the same minimum contract that he's on now. He could run that second unit. I even tweeted about this

that game, I think if they had a guy I like him. In that game, he makes perfect sense for that second. They had such a wild, like, there were some wild lineups out there. It was like Diallo, Miritich, Rondo. I was like, this is like the village of the damned. I can't believe what I'm watching. And when they stuck around when AD wasn't on the court.

And when AD was on the court, they just blew the doors off. That being said, there was definitely a moment where I like, oh, no, he just tore his abductor muscle. And that was during the Clippers game. And then last night, he went down really hard on his ankle against the Kings. X-rays were negative. If it's a high ankle sprain, I think they are like 99% to make the playoffs according to 538 or something like that.

I mean, they're high up there. It's high up there. So I guess they could almost, I don't think they could lose out, but they could suffer for a couple of weeks. I think that the Davis thing is always going to be, can he stay on the floor? And even when he has a season like he's having now,

you're just always afraid. And what's wild is that, like, I feel like he actually could do more. I was watching him against the clip run. He could block any shot. Any shot he could get to. And he just would watch a guy come off of like a screen on the on the elbow. And you could see him sort of tracking him like a panther.

Like he was like, I got you. Like you're just not going to score. Harold, I mean, like, and Harold had like a career night. And it was still like, Anthony Davis could do anything you wanted against him. What team could he do more in, in your opinion? If he goes to Boston, I will quit participating in the NBA conversation. I will not watch any more NBA games because that would be

for me personally as a Philadelphia if it'd suck it would also be like direct move against Embed and although Embed AD for the next five years if either of those guys could stay healthy that would be like going back to like

true true center basketball that I really love you know I would love to see AD I love seven footers banging down low I was gonna let that one go I mean as a basketball fan. I can't wait until AD plays with like just four other amazing

teammates. Just he's going to go to another level and like we're already talking about this guy as a Hall of Famer based on his production thus far. Like you look at, you project him out. He's just on the same line as like Shaq and some of these other guys. It's insane. But get him with like Kyrie Irving and Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown

and holy shit, this dude is going to be amazing. Speaking of the Sixers. Why did you tell me a little bit about why you can't quit the Sixers? I just think they have what a lot of the other teams that we're talking about in this middle tier don't. They just have an identity one. And they have the type of elite talent,

young talent that's still kind of growing into themselves and playing around each other's. And it's really starting to come to fruition. We're starting to see, like we put something in Slash the other day. I forgot who tweeted it out. But a lot of the projection systems of Vandmetrics are projecting the Sixers as the three-seed in the Eastern Conference. You also said Markle Fultz was dunking before the game the other day.

So they've got that to look forward to. Yeah. I, one step at a time. But this has been, they did a subtle rejiggering of their team. Their second unit was an adventure every night, you know, and it was, there was times where you'd be watching and you're like, wow, they're really, Trevor Booker's getting a lot of time out here, you know, and I think that the, adding Ilyossova and Bellanelli, it's not, that, that's not the kind of thing that makes new fans, but it's the kind of thing that wins more games,

probably. Yeah, sure. And I think they have on the good side. they have someone like him B and who is guarding him in the playoffs. Do the Raptors have a guy to counter him to the Celtics and the Cavs have anyone who can counter him at his peak and healthy? On the other hand, Kevin O'Connor wrote the other day, which is a good piece just comparing Ben Simmons and Brandon Ingram.

And there are still questions about Ben Simmons in the half court in the fourth quarter, simply because if he can't shoot, the whole team becomes way more predictable. And you wonder what's going to happen in a playoff setting. So they're very intriguing just for that reason. Ben Simmons right now is like Rondo of Rondo dunked it every time he got to the hoop. Big Rondo? It's that same time.

It's that same thing where you're like, you have a wide open shot, you have a wide open shot, you have a wide open shot. And then Rondo goes under the hoop and does like a crazy pass to like skip pass to the other side of the court. Ben Zimmons just dunks it.

And so that will be interesting to see what happens if teams actually start shutting off those lanes or contesting his shots a little bit more at the rim. I also just think his court vision is so unbelievable that it changes the geometry of the court. What do you think about how the Sixers have been playing? Well, I think I just can't quit on them. I can't quit watching them because I don't feel any need for them

to get the three seed or to get out of the first round or anything this season. I'm like watching these guys who are going to be amazing in a couple years next year. I mean, they're already amazing. And I really watch the Sixers like these two are. at the future. And it's very exciting because I'm like, they're both going to be there next year too. Yeah. Chris, where are you at it? Like, do you want them to get the three and like, is it important to you at all?

Um, I would love that for them to not have to get the LeBron steamroller treatment in the first round. So right now that they're the six and Cavs are the three. I think it would be an incredible achievement for them to get the third seat at the Easter conference for sure. So just so they could sell it to LeBron like you're the missing piece. Yeah, or it's just so that, yeah. I mean, he caught me. I think it would be exciting to see them compete against a wizards or a Pacers in the first round. I think that that would be a winnable series for them for sure. We're going to take another quick break to hear from our sponsors, and we'll be back with Jason Concepcion.

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it's group chat and now we have a bigger group because Jason Concepcion's here what's up applaud that man applaud him because he wrote a banger column this week I appreciate that

Jason wrote about Russ versus Harden which is an argument that has torn the ringer apart for so long now I feel like there's nobody else on my team except for like maybe Gallagher

about just like where I still defend Rust I'm here Okay, thank you. Well, you're not very vocal about it. I know. I take a lot of slings and arrows in the Slack channels. What's the argument?

Let's distill it down. Because I need Sean Fantasy to like me to speak clearly. You really don't. Yeah, you don't. I got you. Don't worry about it. Defining the argument is important, I think, because to me, the debate, my position is the debate is not a debate anymore.

Hardin is better than Russ, right? I think even Russ fans are like, yes, I agree with that. In the sense that if you define better as easier to build a team around, has a game more predicated to the way the league is trending, right? And makes guys better in a fashion that is commensurate with winning? The third one is the most important. If you want to win basketball games, James Hardin is your guy. Yeah, that's what I'm...

How about if you want to feel good about watching basketball, though? You're all about the experience. That's another thing. If you define it as that, like, that's fine. I love Russ. I love watching Russ. Do I think that he's the guy that you go to the championship with? Maybe I think it's harder to assemble that team than it is around James Harden.

I don't think there's anything romantic about watching Russ fail. That's not what this is about. And I actually think that up until Kevin Durant left, that it wasn't really a consideration. Yeah. It wasn't like he didn't fail very often. He went to a conference, he went to an NBA finals. They went to the conference finals. They were basically a Clay Thompson hot streak away from beating one of the great all-timore

time NBA teams in the conference finals. I adored their, like, the Kevin and Russ friction because I thought it was so nakedly, like, psychological. When you watched it, you were just like, oh, who's going to, these two great players who obviously like each other, but are obviously bad for each other, what's going to happen here? And, well, it's not like, Kevin Durant wasn't bad for Russell Westbrook. I think Russell Westbrook was, it didn't make Kevin as efficient as he could be.

Yeah. Yeah. And you look at the talent they assembled. They have three MVP candidates, three guys that will probably ultimately win MVP on that team and Sir Jabaca and Thalsephalotia, but whatever. Yeah. And you're Collison, Ben. The fact that they only went to one finals is disappointing, especially when you look at what Kevin Doreen is done outside of Russ and what other guys are doing outside of Russ now. Jason brought it up in his piece. Like, look at Ollipo. Look at Ennis Cantor just eaten in New York. Like, there's something to be said about that.

Oladipo's personal style really requires him to have the ball a lot more than he ever would for us. A lot more than he ever would with a couple other point guards too. Well, that was the hope with Paul George. I don't know if we can necessarily put an asterisk on this season just because Roberson ruptured is Patella.

You know, I mean, like, I think that they were on a hot streak there. Yes. I don't. They were elite defensive team. They were, yeah. And they had a certain big game attitude.

that was very terrifying, I think, for some of the bigger teams. I think that that defensive intensity that you're talking about, and yeah, they would lose to the wolves. They would lose to the kings here and there. But like, they would be, they could, they beat the Warriors first times, a couple times they played them. Having said that,

we always used to talk about this during the thunder debate of 2000, early, late 2017, their identity was on defense. Yeah. And Russ didn't contribute to that. He was actually the worst defender on the floor for them. A lot of the times, it's very Derek Rose-esque, where it's like, now that we value both sides of the core equally,

or at least close to that, you have to factor in that he's not a big part of the best part of them. For me, it's like it's about margins, you know. No one's saying Russ is bad, which I think is like what people who are critical of like the pro-harden stance would say, especially on Twitter where people are normal. It's like, you know, the way Russ plays will win you games. Will they win you all the games you need to win?

Not all the time. You know, it's like it comes down to at times that final shot, passing to KD when he, you know, instead of passing to KD, he takes a pull-up three, you know, like early in the clock. Those decisions lose you playoff games in the long run. What was this stat that you screenshotted? Or that you had a tweet in there was a screenshot.

It was something like when Rush shoots over 17 field goal attempts, they're like sub-500 team. And when he shoots less, they're like 12 and 1 or something. And that's sort of, this is the problem, is that I don't think anybody, even somebody like Sean, who doesn't like, you know, who really laid out his argument last year and against Russ, this post he wrote for the site,

that it's more about what he does to the players around him. Yeah, that's the thing. And that he's sort of doomed to be this great player on a 500 team rather than the leader of a team that's going to the finals, right? Yeah, I also thought what you said was interesting. And I think that it's a product, of last season and a little bit the season before, they're just all of a sudden extremely pitted against each other.

And so much so that you can't just admit that both of them are good. It's like, no, this one's superior. And you have to make that choice because of how much, especially last year, Russ won the MVP. A lot of people thought Harden. But even before that during the season, it's like you can't just say, like, no, Russ is still very good at basketball. You have to say, like, Russ is not as good as Hardin.

They're interlinked in a way that, like, Curry and Russ aren't, you know, because they were all in the same team. And it's hard to escape the seemingly more, it's seemingly more obvious every day that Presti had three MVP level players and kept the worst one. Yeah. Worst. Okay. So very good. Like, here's the counter that.

Yeah. Is there anything that, is there a way in which maybe the thunder never evolved past the obvious athletic? that team is constructed around and that Hardin and Durant have both gone to teams that have seemed to seemingly unlocked a next level of basketball. I mean, they play, one plays for Mike Dantonie, one plays for Steve Kerr, both of whom share a lot of the same offensive like philosophies. They have general managers who are seeing things in a different way. Presby's really good with what he has. But there is a degree to which he's almost like Billy Bean. He is, he can't really attract a free agent to Oklahoma City.

And I don't even know if he has in the past because, I mean, there was that whole thing when Durant, one of the reasons why Durant was also like, I kind of have to leave Oklahoma is because like, what was it, Powell Gasol wouldn't even consider coming to Oklahoma. And it's like that was Powell Gasol. He wanted to go to the theaters in Chicago. Yeah, he was like, I'd rather go lose in Chicago and live in Chicago than win in Oklahoma. Same. Is it?

Yeah. Chicago versus Oklahoma. Wow. I mean, I'm sorry. like Powell also has chips so it's like you know yeah he's got a ring so he's like yeah right

Hiliosha's friend of the Midwesterners just tearing them down well it's not necessarily tearing them down it's just like Chicago is very appealing not that Oklahoma doesn't have appealing things oh I thought you were like Oklahoma City is as nice as Chicago

yeah that's what I thought you were going for oh no no I mean I think you make a good point about just the environment and the fact that they've almost gravitated coaching wise toward task managers and like the type of college coach, like the Nick Sabin of NBA coaches.

On the other hand, what coach in the world is telling Russ to play differently? If you have Russ and your team is built around him, who's saying like, no, I sell ball isn't the way to do it. Who has the juice to do that? You need to pass it to double step. So that's what I wonder, is if you have, if Russ plays for pop,

if Russ plays for Stevens, if Russ plays for Spolstra, you know, we're not so far removed from when we used to imagine Russ on another team. I'm wondering what the sliding door is like what it would have looked like if he had ever played in a different system. He is Oklahoma City now. This is kind of, it does kind of remind me what happened with Iverson after the finals years where it was like they just brought in a cavalcade of Larry Hughes type guys to pair with him and it never worked out. And so you sort of wonder now back then in the early 2000s, you were just kind of like, guys got signed to like six, seven year contracts.

They never went anywhere. where, you know, for Oklahoma City, and we've talked about this a lot, maybe it's a broken record at this point, but a lot of these smaller market teams are going to have to consider selling high on their stars to do these kinds of rebuilds. And one thing that we've seen from Presti

is a certain amount of aggression and a certain amount of, you know, risk-taking. And I wonder whether or not, if Paul George leaves, and they're stuck with Carmelo, Stephen Adams and Russ, and you can't really do a whole lot with that. Like, what do you do?

You know, Russ has, what, two more years after this on his deal before he can opt out? Oh no, he just sent that big extension. But isn't there an opt-out in it? I'm not sure. I believe he's locked in for like four or five more years. Okay.

All right. I mean, to me, I can't see Presti being the guy who moves him. Because if you... It would have to be Resbrook being. And I don't think Westbrook would ever believe. I don't think Westbrook would ever not say, like, I can do it here. I feel like, because then the judgment on Presti is, I think, pretty dire once he ends up trading Westbrook.

And now you're left with nothing. You had these three MVP guys. one of the most promising teams in the league. They went from like 30 wins to 50 wins, like in a season. The trajectory was sky high, and then you are left with, like, nothing. They're so influential. There is such an influential team.

When you think about all the other teams around who are like, well, we could try and do what the Thunder did, we can get Janice and two other guys who we can pair with him that we draft and we control and we could get on manageable contracts. I mean, he had three home runs and a triple in consecutive draft. Yeah, it's amazing.

Katie, Westbrook, Hardin, Abaca. It was just like, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then Adams later on, who's very good. I mean, that's the dream. And then basketball changed too drastically for them to adjust. Yeah. One of the interesting things I think about Hardin in this year is that he's better. He's better than last year.

He's like significantly better. He has a PR over 30, which is like. Leading the league. Michael Jordan-esque elite level. And I think it's interesting because he's no longer chasing triple doubles in the way that he was last year, clearly. But on the other hand, his usage rate is higher. So you could also say he's playing more like Russ,

but maybe his teammates are just a little bit better, and he's getting more guys involved. This fascinates me about basketball right now because we've been told, like, for the last decade plus, like, iso ball is bad. Now, through analytics and just seeing different looks, having a better awareness of the way possessions are used, it's just all about context, right?

Yeah, everything's relative. And if it works, if you can score efficiently in an ISO, then do it. And if you have the most efficient ISO score in league and surround them with shooters and just let them work. Yeah. You know, it's really,

it's really amazing how the perception of the league has changed in that way. It is, it's, so many teams would love to play the way the Rockets do, where you have Ryan Anderson, Eric Gordon, Gerald Green,

whoever you have standing out in those spots. And you just have one of the two elite ISO players in the league, grinding up clock and then drawing all this jump, this sort of gravity towards them. And if you've got, guys who can 35 footers, it's unbeatable.

And imagine who would have thought that Hardin's usage rate would have been higher with Chris Paul. Yeah. That's absurd. Yeah. That doesn't make any sense. And it makes me think, okay, none of us believe that Chris Ball said he wanted to like spot up and not have as many responsibilities. But he was being earnest. Yeah.

And it's honestly like it is another check in the Hardin's category because everybody thought there's only one ball. Hardin breaks under pressure. What's you going to do the first time Chris Paul tells him not to go out on a Friday night or whatever? And honestly, it clearly hasn't mattered. And Russ was dealt a pretty winning hand this year. And they haven't been able to make it work. And I don't know whether it's because Billy Donovan's playbook isn't good enough or I don't know whether or not there is a playbook,

but Russ breaks it every time down. Obviously, there is a game plan in which Russ doesn't take that many shots in the Thunder or a better team, but he's not going to do that. Danny Chow put something in Slack the other day, which I think is pretty fascinating. After AD's big performance against the Clippers, he said, where would AD, this year's AD rank in last year's MVP race. Yeah. Well, and that was Tate's tweet from a couple of weeks ago where he was like,

but by any metric hardens the MVP. He is already the MVP this year. But if we're using the like emotional narrative conversation that we had last year with Russ, AD is the MVP. And my response was AD is just doing what he did last year. It's just his teammates are a little bit better. And then like my head exploded because then you're getting into this slippery slope where it's like, well, how much is context matter? How much is this person's like, we always say like, like, oh, Russ won the MVP because he carried a team that didn't have enough guys around him. But then, like, why wouldn't AD be the same thing last year? It's just like, ah.

But also emotionally, it's like, oh, my God, boogie went down. And now he's doing this. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's an incredible debate. I think, you know, I, we, you can look at it just simply through the lens of like, what do you want your team to look like? And how do you want your team to play? Or you can look through the lens of, like, what do you care about when you watch basketball?

And I have an emotional reaction. I have an aesthetic reaction. when I see the Thunder play versus if I see the Rockets play. The Thunder can be grindingly unentertaining to watch and really frustrating but there is something

naked about the way that they're like they play. 100% agree. There's a there's a counterculture element to them of like oh this is how you're supposed to play with the spacing the past, fuck that.

Yeah. I'm gonna dunk on you. I'm gonna dunk on you. Go as hard as I can. Right. And then I'm gonna scream in your face. Yeah. And then what?

That's great. It's dope. It is dope. I react to that on an emotional level. It's kind of hard when you watch Shame Harden. Go to line and go to the line and go to the line and goes to the line and goes to line. And then he grinds up. It's another wide open three for somebody else.

Yeah. Grimes up 18 seconds of the clock. Like it's 1996. I mean, really looks like the 90s sometimes out there. And it's so based on, well, here's the most efficient ways to score. And I'm just going to lean on these things. And I don't care what it looks like. I don't care about anything else.

That can leave you cold at times. Same time, it's like, do we want to win or do you want to be entertained? It's like those things aren't mutually excuse me. Well, we'll be having this conversation again because it's very possible that this could be a first round playoff matchup. Which will be pretty exciting. Until next time for Haley, Justin, Jason, Jason Ketsefzion, thanks for joining us. I'm Chris Ryan. This has been group chat. Talk to you next week.

Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.