The Ringer NBA Show - The Seven Most Important Questions After the Trade Deadline | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos answer some of the biggest questions around the league now that the trade deadline has passed, starting with whether the Suns are the best team in the West (02:16). They also discuss the outlook of the Knicks and Nets (09:36), whether the Lakers or Warriors will be more miserable to watch (21:16), and whose on-the-margin acquisitions will matter most (29:35). Finally, they talk about the Mavericks (37:31), the buyout guy that will have the most impact (47:16), and which player or team will surge after the All-Star break (51:15). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Engineer: Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guide Pasha Higigee. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure it was time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league.

And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into Offguard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me, sitting in front of me, the most beautiful podcast duo in history. Rob Mahoney, big Waz. What's up, guys? People are saying that about us, Woss. Yes, but I disagree. It's a trio of beautiful men. So shouts to Justin Varyer in his hands himself, being in the building. Thank you. Only non-toxic masculinity around here. We're a very supportive

bunch. Of course. So this is the first ever group chat live, or I guess, live to tape. Yeah. For no one except for Isaiah and Eduardo and whoever is plugged into this camera that is recording us up on this big screen. This is weird. That's a little weird. But no, would anyone ever know if we didn't tell them?

I like to think that our banter is in person on point all the time. But maybe that's not the case. Well, let us know, I guess. Let us know if this is appreciably different. Yeah. No, it's weird. I don't have to, like, prompt you guys to talk. Usually I'll have to be like, Waz.

What do you think? about this. Yeah, we can just read each other's facial expressions and body language, which I think we're all pretty good at, you know? Yeah. Well, on today's episode, as I stare at, Rob, this is so weird. Hey, so we are now, what, about a week after the deadline? Yeah. See, I didn't have to even, like, set you up there. You just jumping on it. I literally just said, yeah. I just agreed with you. This is great. We have seven, count them seven questions after the trade deadline, talking about buyout guys, talking about other ripple effects. but first and foremost, the Phoenix Suns.

They're looking a little bit different these days, although Kevin Durant hasn't played there. Let's start with this first question was. Are the sons the best team in the West? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of caveats involved. If everybody's healthy, I believe they have the most talented team, especially obviously at the top end

after having traded their entire wing depth. and then the kitchen sink to get KD into their building. So, yeah, I believe that. And also, you know, I like that this is a deadline deal because when people talk about depth and lack of a bench and all of that stuff, that stuff carries you through the regular season, which is 82 games, folks.

After the trade deadline, you got about 30 games and then you're gone, right? So the depth becomes less important for a really top-heavy team as the games decrease, obviously. and I think in a series where you have, you know, a day or two in between every single game for rest and they could play their four guys

basically 40 minutes a game. Yeah, you gotta believe that they're the best team in the West right now. I think the thing about the depth part of it is, you're right, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Like who your 11th guy is does not matter. My issue with the Sons,

and I think what gives me some pause in calling them the best team in the West, is let's say they start, Paul and Booker, let's say Tori Craig is probably the other starter and Durant and Aden. Who else in that team do you trust? Period.

I think maybe Damian Lee is the closest thing to an answer. And that's a guy that the Warriors actively did not trust and granted. He's at a really good season. He's proven himself in a different capacity. But when I think about Denver, I see a team that like,

I trust Bruce Brown. They have a rock solid starting five and they have Bruce Brown. And now they have Thomas Bryant. And they're getting Reggie Jackson in the door. Well, let me ask you this. Do you trust the? the sun's depth more than the nuggets,

because even though the nuggets have been steamrolling throughout this regular season, I don't know if their bench is that much better. I think it's better, but I don't know how much better. But I think it's getting better, right? Like, you're... It's on the prospect that Thomas Bryant and Reggie Jackson are meaningful additions,

and I think they are in the context of this conversation. Yeah, and the stuff that Thomas Bryant and Reggie Jackson do, because I was watching the game the other day, and it was like KCP and Is Smith, and Thomas Bryant and Jeff Green, all on one lineup. And I'm like, this is not a lineup to score. You know, this is not going to be able to do it.

But like, as the game went on, they were sort of figuring out ways even saying, oh, why don't we play through Thomas Bryant? Why don't we do a couple of other things? And if it's Reggie Jackson instead of Is Smith, he's overqualified for that position. I just think in the playoffs where, you know, teams are going to beg,

KD and Devin Booker to just straight up beat them one-on-one. They're going to be well-equipped to do so. They're going to have enough spacing. Chris Paul is going to do enough as far as table setting is concerned. I think Aitin is actually going to have to do things. He's like actually going to have to do things. Critical. Yeah, like on offense too.

And so, you know, and I think that would make, will make him a more engaged defender. So, yeah, I think on the top end, I think they're the most talented. but obviously I'm the person who picked Denver to make it to the finals this year, drink at home. I think Denver is obviously a more complete team, of course. But being the most complete doesn't always mean that you're going to be the better team throughout the course of a playoff series.

I have two concerns here. One is obviously help. Kevin Durant has not suited up yet. He hasn't played for what? About a month. Obviously, Chris... Legitimate concern. Chris Paul seems like he's back.

He had 17 and 19. last night against the King. Seems like he's rounding back into form. Devin Booker is now back. But even like T.J. Warren, the other guy they got from the Nets hasn't been a paragon of health for the past three years, let alone. Even the seasons, he's kind of been in now. So the T.J. Warren thing is important. He was supposed to start training camp.

That's what he was. I actually saw him in the summer. And I asked him. I was like, are you going to be ready for games? Like, hell yeah. I'm ready. I'm good to go. He didn't play till like January.

Three months. Just for the people counting at home. He looked fine. Like, he's been okay. If he can be the Warren of old, I think, like, that would be a nice piece to have. Sure, but it's just to speak to his health, right? Like, this is a guy. They took it easy in Brooklyn.

They were really cautious about bringing him back. But, you know, he's a guy, Chris Paul. And I think the most, the thing that worries me is the Chris Paul part of it. Because I think, to be honest, I believe D'Andre Aiton is not better than Claxton. I really don't. I believe Devin Booker and Kyrie Irvin Archer. essentially of equal ability, especially in a playoff setting. And that's the Brooklyn team last year, right?

I think Chris Paul, if he's the guy that we saw last night against Sacramento, he makes them infinitely better. If he's the guy we saw the last three, four games against the Dallas Mavericks last year, this team is imminently beatable. They're going to be really good. It's just a matter of how these things intersect, right? Like, if they're even missing one of those guys, It's a wrap.

Their depth chart completely changes in a way that is very concerning. And not only the guys we talked about, but they lost Dario Sarich, who's been an important piece for them. They're bleeding players in a way that we'll see if Darius Basley, who they got at the deadline, can do anything for them. We'll find out.

I would be very nervous. Obviously, if Kevin Durant isn't Kevin Durant, that's kind of a huge problem for them, given the construction of this team now. But even then, if Devin Booker's groin injury nags at him, if Chris Paul looks his age, it's going to hurt. They just don't have the ability

to compensate for those things. And that speaks to my second point, which is there really is no history of a move like this. Well, for one, being made at the deadline. Deals like this typically don't get made, although typically in recent years, we've seen more of them, James Harden the first time, James Hardin

the second time, and on and on. But there really isn't a track record of someone completely changing their team on the fly and succeeding in the playoffs. I think part of that is because you tend to strip your depth. And so you have to really make do with what you have.

And you don't have a full off season to add other guys. It reminds me of the big three heat where they finally got Shane Badiah in. That was the one guy they needed to get enough mid-level exceptions to like round out your loss. And guys internally got better. Like Chalmers got better. He became an important closing piece for them. And not only just like the Badiye types or even Birdman at certain points for the heat.

There's just a continuity thing that happens when people play with each other more where Bron and D. Wade gets smarter about playing with each other, playing with each other, Bron and Chalmers playing off of each other. So Chris Paul, Devin Booker, and Kevin Durant learning how to play off of one another will be important. But I think this year is going to be a lot of one-on-one shit. Yeah. Should we flip to the other side of the trade?

So the next question I have up here, who is the best team in? New York City. This is easy for me. This is easy. The team that's not paying Ben Simmons $40 million a year to be a cactus is the better team in New York City. I think, look, I like what the Nets did in the sense that wing depth is the most valuable commodity in the NBA, specifically to teams who are trying to accomplish things.

Wing depth doesn't mean anything to the Houston Rockets, right? wing depth doesn't mean anything to the Charlotte Hornets, but man, would the Lakers like to have some wing depth today? Absolutely. To that point, the Grizzlies reportedly offered four first just for Michaela Bridges. So there you go. The Grizzlies would like to have some wing depth today. Like the teams that are trying to accomplish stuff,

there's nothing more valuable, right? And so I like the idea that they have these assets that people will want. People are going to talk themselves into future first for Dorian Finney Smith. obviously McHale Bridges is literally one of the best value contracts in the league, and I'm going to steal a take from one of my close friends. This is why you don't take a team-friendly deal when they could trade your ass, okay? It's like, oh, I love being to Phoenix. I'm going to take a cheaper deal.

They traded you. Anyway, rant over. You want to be cost prohibitive in the NBA. Like, if you like where you are, get the biggest deal you can. And if you don't like where you are, like if you're Eric Gordon, for example, stop signing extensions at huge numbers. Like the money is good, but if you want to move on, you just can't do it. Yeah.

Even Cam Johnson, who I think, you know, his 3Dness is a little overstated at times. These are guys are going to be very easy to move if and when the time comes for it. Although Cam Johnson has to get paid first, which is tough. But these are guys, Finney Smith, McKell Bridges, incredible deals they're on. And, you know, Cam Johnson, they get them to. you know, at least close to market value, these are pieces that can move. I just don't think the team sort of makes sense as a whole.

But I like what they got. I think the Knicks are a more normal team. You know what I mean? Like, what I mean? R.J. into three. Like, you know, like, it makes sense. You know, it took me quite a journey to get here. But the Knicks are good.

Like, they're a good team. And certainly, like, Brunsanity or whatever is happening right now, doesn't hurt. Looks like one of the best guards in the league. But really over the last two, two and a half months, they've been on such an offensive climb, really into being one of the best offensive teams in the league

over the course of the season as a whole because of their play in those last two and a half months. They've completely changed their profile as a team. They're much more credible within the East as a result. They're certainly better than where the Nets are right now. Although I agree with you as a waste station, the Nets have lots of attractive players and they're going to do fine in the grand scheme of things.

But it's perfectly fine to say that the NICs are definitively better than the Nets and also if we broaden out, the comparisons are not so favorable relative to the other top teams in the East still. Like the Knicks are still in a different class from the Celtics and the Sixers and the Bucks and those teams.

Yeah, they went the complete opposite way of the Nets where they got Josh Hart, who is D and will occasionally take a three if you shoot him to. Although, yeah, he's now six for nine from three and the other night he had like 20-something points. Yeah, the Nicks are better now. I think that's clear cut.

The Nets, as you guys alluded to, basically breeders for three and D players. Like, I think they are only going to... Like a puppy mill? Yeah, exactly. They are only going to shoot threes and play D and no other basketball will be played in between that. And so, I think they've set themselves

up, well, they're kind of a modern version of what they were before Katie and Kyrie, where it's like, they have set themselves up for a star, when will they get that star? Who knows? But in the meantime, they could trade these guys. They could be fine and have the vibes and be

fun until then. I think the question though is in the future. Does that approach bear more for let's say five years from now than the Knicks who are good but as we're saying aren't great? Well there's also a cost to what the Nets are doing right now which is

not just that they're going to be a worst team this season for not having Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving, obviously. If you make this like 3 and D Nirvana situation what you are doing is actively making Ben Simmons worse. and driving his trade value even lower into the ground. I'm not saying you should orient your franchise around what Ben Simmons...

No, no, no. All I'm saying is... He's the worst contract in the NBA. And it's not even close now. Bradley Beale would like a word. No, no, no, no. No, Bradley Beal on a team that has championship aspirations could slot in and fit a defined role tomorrow.

Ben Simmons doesn't fit on any team. Brad Beal is like the number three behind Kuzman, poor Zingis, man. I don't know. Wow. Beal's making more for longer is the problem. He's a better basketball player, but I think the contract is worse. Ben Simmons is going to make like $35 million next season and he won't take a layoff. And he can't play basketball.

Then it's an expiring contract. We saw what happened to Russ, man. If Russ can get traded, Ben Simmons can be traded. Russ is a viable NBA player. Ben Simmons right now is not. And that's all I'm saying is if you're going to, like, if you're, have two of the best shooters in the world in Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving,

Ben Simmons is almost playable. If you do not, he's what we see right now, which is like he's trying to like pass off of layups to Nick Clackson through off, killing possessions. Yeah, he played 13 minutes against the Knicks, and Jacques Vaughn basically alluded to the fact

that he's going to have a tough time trying to work him into rotations now. It's a freaking quagmire is what it is. And I get, like, you don't want to move your franchise to accommodate that, but the direction they are right now, Ben Simmons is not going to be any more tradable than he was a week ago.

Thank God he wears cool shades on the bench. It's sad, man. I can't even bring myself to knock on Ben. It's just become a very, very tough. Very depressing situation. But no, to the earlier question was, do you think long-term the Nets are in better shape? I think long-term the Knicks are fine because they have their McHale Bridges' centerpiece in a type of deal, right? Like, you can make RJ the centerpiece of a deal.

and, you know, send ship away your draft future for somebody who's legitimately great. Who that is, I don't know. Like, I don't think the Knicks are good enough to do this for a Rudy Gobert type, right? Like, that don't make no sense for you guys. But somebody who is in their 20s and is a perennial all-star, they can make a deal for that type of person. Ben Simmons? Now you're just being mean. I know, I said I wouldn't do it, but I did it.

Let's put it on the clock. That was like within 90 seconds of you saying you wouldn't want to be mean to Ben Simmons. I also think that the Nets have an interesting little position here, almost like shorting the Sun's future. Because while I think the Sun's trade for Kevin Durant is a home run in the immediate, long term I do have some concerns there. Just because you're banking on 34-year-old perpetually injured Kevin Durant. Chris Paul is what, 37, and then we don't know what Devin Booker and DeAndre hate and want long term.

Maybe you can flip them into your future, but I think long term, I think that's a pretty dicey preposition. And thus, the Nets having those future picks could ultimately bear fruit in the way that having, the Knicks having their own picks maybe won't. Also, the thing about having even having Devin Booker, having DeAndre Aiton, which is also why I liked what the Cavs did when they, brought in Donovan Mitchell. They could trade them for picks too. We can just do this pick thing forever when you already have the guys in house. And so that's why I don't mind it long term at all when people are like, hey, man, they gave up their future drafts forever.

I saw the other day Ben Taylor thinking basketball, he was like, yo, man, I did the math on these picks and they ended up being in like the 17s. Is the average pick you get? when you do this and like 17 pick for KD? Seems like a no-brainer, right? And so like I think all of these teams are well positioned in this new NBA where like a team that's sinking to the bottom will just take on your future drafts to give you extremely high-quality players, then they're fine.

Yeah, I want to make that part of it extremely clear. We have rung our hands about the sun's depth. We're talking about how the Nets acclimated themselves pretty well. If you're Phoenix, you do this trade 100 times out of 100. It's not even close. You do not hesitate. I'm not fredding over a future first or a pick swap. I'm just not for Kevin Durant.

I mean, yes, on average, the future picks don't actually become what people think they are. That's just something that you could sell your fans, especially pick swaps, which are basically just like phony money. The problem I have is that this is being sold as Matt Ashiba riding in on his white horse, saving the day. And I read that story more as like maybe he overpaid more than he should have in order to win the day when he first jumped in there. And so I think there's like just a pretty realistic timeline where the future is really bad. But for the now, I think it makes total sense. And if we were a look at the suns going into the trade deadline, we would have said like maybe they could upgrade certain moves and they could make it to the West finals.

We wouldn't have picked them at all to get past that threshold. now they have a legitimate chance of salvaging this era of the Sons and being his final team, which I don't think we could have said before. I think this is what Waza is saying about like you can always just do this again for trade your guys for more picks. It just feels like it. If you like what the

Nets did right now, the Sons could do the same thing in three years. Yeah. You know, like they could be in exactly the same place and yes, their own future is leveraged much in the way that the Nets is, but you can flip very good players. Go take a flyer on, you know, the Lakers and Nix will

always exist. And you can take flyers on their existing drafts going beyond that. And, you know, to your point about the new owner and riding in on his white horse, if you're a Sons fan and the guy before him is playing grab assery with the women in his organization, dropping end bombs, generally one of the cheapest dudes in the freaking league. Remember when the sons would just sell first round picks just for the fun of it, right? Like, when they were hyper competitive, too. And you get this guy to come in and he's already all in on your team.

I think you should be happy about that. A lot of media for a guy Matt Ashiba. I'll just say that. I think it's Ishbia. Ishbia. All right. Ishbia. Yeah.

Look, Justin, you know how I am when the media gets universally behind some certain type of narrative. I'm just like, hmm, skeptical. But this feels definitely more right than what the wolves did by going out. grabbing a new GM with the ownership group that technically wasn't even owning the team anymore? I'm like, and then it's for Rudy Gobert. This in comparison just seems way more smarter. They got Kevin Durant.

Yeah. All right. Speaking of teams that are leveraged, let's go to our next question. Number three, which team will be more miserable to follow over the second half of the season? It's not even in the second half. It's like a third. 20-ish games, 25 games? Post all-star break, the Lakers with LeBron on extended PTO or the Steffless Warriors leaking more gossip than Chris Jenner.

Can you all of, can you all of gossip you're referring to with the Warriors? Because I'm not in the gossip mill. Well, for one, all of... Wait, you're not in the gossip? No, not with the Warriors, like the Bob Meyer stuff. The Bob Meyer stuff. And then all of the Gary Payton the second, we leaked everything before the Trailblazers had actually heard of a grievance. Okay, here's the thing, because I got some intel on the Gary Payton, the second stuff.

Wasbom? This is not a was bomb, but like, I have a pretty good handle on it. Joe Laker, Wiseman is his baby, right? However, the important guys on the team, the freaking GM, the coach, Draymond, Steph, Clay, they want to get good players in there. And there's that tension of just like, this guy can't help us. We want to win right now, but Lake up really being into the Wiseman thing. And so they go out, they get Gary Payton the second, right?

And they bring him in. This whole, their doctor does a physical on the guy. And yes, he has a lot of scar tissue from an injury that he sustained last year on Golden State that they already knew about. This idea that they're doing this hand-wringing, it's really just a doctor in-house that's just like, Look, like, you know, this was another guy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Laca being really mad about parting ways with Wiseman in the first place. Nothing untoward happened. You even see Josh Hart other players coming out and be like, no, we watched the staff be really careful bringing this guy back along.

Like, nothing untowards happened, which is why you just see them say, obviously we're going to go through with the trade and all of that stuff. But it's just Lacob really liking Wiseman, really on his life. light years. We're planning for the future while dominating thing. And, you know, that, the stuff in the media is just a manifestation of that. But again, they have no leg to stand on. This guy was on this injury in your building with your doctors last year. Right. And so that is just what it is. And then Bob Myers, that, I don't understand. I don't have any answers for what's happening with Bob Myers. Well, I think you just answered it, right? It's if you have an owner who is that kind of invested. to the point that it's hard to trade James Wiseman,

a player who to date has not been a very effective basketball player by any measure, if you feel pinched in that situation, I could understand why you might want to look at something else, even if it's being a podcast host. I mean, another reason why they probably went through with trade is their defense is awful. I don't know if you guys watched the game last night against the Clippers. And even if...

They couldn't stop a cold. Yeah, if Gary Payton has, like, no core. Like, if he is just like the top of his body, used to the bottom of his body, he will be a better perimeter defender than what they have going on right now. And that's partly why I bring up this question. The Warriors without Steph have been dreadful.

Are they worse than the Lakers with LeBron, who as soon as he broke the wreckers like peace, I'm just going to go on extended vacation? I don't know. That's the question. I don't know that being injured is extended vacation. Is he injured? I'm not in a position to doubt that.

They have a lot. The timing was curious, right after the deadline, right after the Calvary comes, and he got Russ a couple years ago specifically to play the minutes so he didn't have to go a full season and be full-time LeBron. But they have a lot to play for. If he's going to sit out extended time without reason, they are not going to make the plan. They're just not.

Do you think that's why Anthony Davis has been grumpy for now, what, five days? I don't know if you guys have checked in there, but it was after the OKC game and after the Portland game. He looked despondent. I've seen a lot of this everywhere. Bill talked about it. I've seen it in other places where people were talking about the AD thing and him allegedly not being happy that LeBron broke the scoring record.

I heard he told Lakers Media off the record something different, having to do with the guy that, you know, the guy that Dave McMinneman went on TV and people in the Lakers organization called a vampire, that guy, a blood sucker. Russell Westbrook for a reference to. Yeah, that dude. It feels like... We're not talking about Wenian Gabriel.

It feels like he was more upset about, one, the Russ thing that game, because by all accounts, Russ was being a very petulant child during that LeBron record-breaking game, and it feels like he was more upset about that. And also, he's coming back from an injury that took him out for two months. the fact that he's not great yet is not to be he wasn't playing before this because he was hurt so i'm not surprised by by anthony davis not being great right now when he just came back from a really extended injury i'll say that about ad as far as lebron and what he's doing i don't know i don't know what this sabbatical is although i think there's a way to read it where the guy's old

he exerted himself at like a playoff level to get that scoring championship that specific night. And I think he needs the time off because he's old and can't just exert himself at that level every single night. But, you know, I'm curious to see what he does when he does come back and how enthusiastic he is about playing with guys like Delo and the rest of the crew. Yeah, we'll have to see what that version of the Lakers looks like. To answer the question, though, the Lakers are fundamentally more depressing than the Warriors are, even without Steph. And I think the performance from the Warriors defense against the Clippers was a little misleading because when Draymond and Wiggins have been on the floor, the defense has been pretty good. Can they be on the floor? Is Wiggins going to be wound up in the way he was all playoffs long last year when it matters?

We'll see how healthy will Steph be. That's obviously a huge question. And like he's Dennis Rodman. I mean. Is the Wiggins revival tour? that's over, right? We're done with that? No, I think he's been...

He's been... He's been more or less the same player when he's out there, you know, maybe not quite as energetic. What's your issue with the Wiggins? Well, it seemed to the playoffs. Everyone was ready to anoint him as the playoff MVP.

They want the championship. I know he was good in the playoffs. He was great. Yeah, he was good in the playoffs, but now he's falling back into being like the fourth most important player on a team. I just like, I get so upset

about the warriors who need Hall of Famers at seven or eight positions in order to feel like they are whole. It's like... Yeah, the team is good enough to compete right now. Wiggins is making the max. Like, can you score 30 points a game? Like, or not a game.

Can you score 30 points like once or twice? Yeah, yeah, no, no, 100%. I think they're absolutely underachieving. I think a lot of it is flip switching kind of stuff. And that's concerning. But I think I just have a confidence that, they can play a version of basketball at a level that I can't see the Lakers. They are more, how people talk about the Lakers.

Like, oh, that's, like, Justin, I know you've said this before. The team that you wouldn't want to see in a seven-game series, no matter the circumstances, to me, the Warriors are that team. Like, I don't want any part of Steph Curry in a playoff series. If he's even remotely healthy and out there. I'll say this. The other night, DeAngelo Russell was like, yeah, it's going to take time to build something. and it was the most reasonable comment

I've heard out of a Laker in a long time and then I realized DeAngelo Russell was the one who was saying that. Was the voice of reason? And I'm like, this is probably rock bottom for this franchise. So we'll see. Number four, who's on the margin moves

will matter the most? I would say outside of the top line trades, Kevin Durant, I were Irving. We got a lot of fringe moves. I wrote a couple down here just to go over them. Jay Croucher the Bucks, Mike Mascala,

the Celtics, the Clippers, trading for like four different players so that they're now 15 player deep. Thomas Bryant to the Nuggets, as we talked about earlier. Jaylon McDaniels on the Sixers, Gary Payton the second eventually for the Warriors. Anyone else or someone from that group, Rob, that stands out to you? Even though we haven't seen him play, I think it's Jay Crowder for the Bucks. They were just so in such desperate need of a guy who they could trust in big moments.

And we'll see if his shot holds up, but defensively you can trust him in a way that the Bucks just do not trust Grayson Allen, for example. I think that's a meaningful change in an east that's for as good as the Celtics have been pretty open. And the bucks have been surging a lot lately. They've been playing great. I like that for them a lot. And if we're talking about which marginal move is actually going to move the needle in the championship race, Jay is the guy. Yeah, I like the Gary Payton the second trade, not just because of the on-court stuff, but we just talked about how the team was feeling about the guys.

who are getting minutes, who are seen as franchise priorities, who can't help them win. I think the removal of that. And bringing in a dude who, when he got in during the playoffs last year, changed how they played. You know, like, they played with more force on defense when Gary Payton came back last year. So I think when you add the sort of team morale aspect of it

as well as what he brings on the court defensively, I think Gary Payne is going to be a big deal. And, you know, Thomas Bryant, I know people have been talking about this guy for two years now, two and a half years being an impact-level kind of guy, even going back to when he was in D.C. I just think when you watch Golden, not excuse me, when you watch the Nuggets play, their bench has been such a, like, held to skeletal situation. I have a big who's going to do the dirty work sort of nitty-gritty rebounds, actually be a paint presence.

He's not some like eraser type of shot block, but he's going to be in the right spot. And every now and again, he could beat somebody one-on-one in the post. That's going to be big for them because Yokic, a lot of times when he goes out of the game, the spirit of what the Nuggets do changes so dramatically,

it's like, all right, what do we do now? I think Thomas Bryant is a big pickup, man. On the Gary Payton Front, too, to your point about the spirit of that movie, and the impact in the locker room, those guys love Gary Payton. Like, go pull up a quote from Draymond Green or Andre Godala about Gary Payton.

Justin has never said anything that nice about me before. No. No, not a single thing. Never. Well, you know, chemistry doesn't win podcast awards, you know? I think it actually does. Is the thing? Well, maybe that's why we don't win them.

I'm going to read you the bench lineup from last night's Clippers game against the war. Warriors, Bones Highland, Eric Gordon, Norm Powell, Nicholas Batum, one of the Palmlays. Which one is this? Mason. Yeah, yeah. Come on, sure. Miles has been in the NBA for a minute. I know. I always confuse Miles and Mason. The Plumley family needs to switch up a little bit. Note on that front, Mason Plumley, been pretty good this year. Pretty good, yes. Can this lineup, if this was the starters, could they beat the Rockets? Yes. It's better than the Rockets, right? Yeah. Yeah. Of course. better than the Hornets? It's a game.

This is like the new, is this team better than Kentucky? Or can the Kentucky beat this NBA team, right? Could the Clippers bench beat your team? I think their second unit is better than some NBA teams. And like, I wouldn't want to be Steve Balmer having to pay for this. But if he wants to just add as many capable NBA players as possible, I think at a certain point it's going to work, you know?

I don't want to trust the clippers, but when I look out there and they just have so many good players at a certain point, like, you can't fail. I disagree. I think if Kauai can't get at an elite level, you can have all the nice rotational,

ancillary, others as Shaq would say as you want. But Kauai has to be elite. And he has been. And he has, last night, he was freaking incredible. He's Terminator games. Let's circle back to that idea. I think there's a Kauai discussion to be had here.

Well, why don't we have it? Okay. How about this? Since January 1st, Kauai Leonard, 27 points a game, 52% shooting. The Clippers are 11 and 5 in that stretch in the games that he's played. How many games did he miss? He honestly has not missed very many.

He's not missing a lot of games. He's good. I think he's missed a total of four games during that stretch. It's pretty good. Yeah. Played 16, missed four. That's a tough team to beat. Like Kauai Leonard, Paul George, a very solid starting lineup,

and that bench attached to it, that's formidable, you know? Like for everything we've said about the Clippers to date, their chemistry has clearly not always been in the right place. But the talent is going to be there. Yeah, look, he can't just be good. He has to be great. And if he's that, then yeah, they're going to be really hard to beat. They finally, because the shooting became such a problem,

especially early on in the season when Kauai was. missing games. But Bones Highland is like developed a reliable three point shot. Really good shooter. Eric Gordon is. Anything else doesn't go in. But yeah. Yeah, well, you know, he's still a young guy. He's still developing the craft to finish and do all the other things. And, you know, he's got other issues. Um, but Eric Gordon is one of the best shooters in the NBA, in my opinion. And so, yeah, I like that they're getting back to, you know, that 2020, version of the clippers where they just were offensive juggerna and they could figure out the rest on defense.

Not that they're getting back to that, you know, they were breaking records and three-pointers made and percentage in those seasons. And so not that they're getting back to that, yeah, I like what they're doing. But Kauai got to stay reasonably healthy and he has to be Terminator Jordan, predator enrolled into one again. I laughed a little bit when they got Eric Gordon at the deadline because it reminded me of the heart. Oh, yeah, it definitely warms the heart. Like, if you love the pre-Christ Paul Clippers, if you had any, like, interest in that team, if you watch Blake Griffin dunk on people before

they became in vogue, like, yes, it's great to see him back there. But I laughed in part because it seems like they just have multiple of the same player now. It's like those, have you ever seen it's popular on Instagram where it's like four generations of the same family? And it's just like the grandma, the mom, the daughter, and then the daughter's daughter's daughter. and they all look sort of alike. And it's like, so Norm Powell, Eric Gordon,

Terrence man, Bone silent. I'm just like, how many of the same player you can get? But I will say Eric Gordon fits what they want to do. Luke Carnard was shooting the lights out

and I think he's a good pickup from the Grizzlies side of things. But I think Gordon's ability to switch and clearly like he has something left because if you watch last night's game, Gordon was playing with an extra pet that he hasn't played with in like four years. Dude is a perpetual sourpuss, I'll say.

But he's a professional, though. He's going to be good there. And so I think the clippers, dare I say, could be dangerous. We just got to get you off reels. You're spending too much time on the gram. I do some weird stuff in my free time. Let's not get into that. Number five here.

Are the Mavericks ellipsies better? Rob, as our native Texan, wearing a cowboy hat as we speak. Yeah. I mean, the offense is definitely better, no? Yeah, of course. And I would say not only better in the way that, you know, we're going to look at the before and after numbers for the trade and it's going to go up over the course of the regular season, but it's more playoff solvent, right? Luca only in the playoffs does leave you a little exposed. And I say that even as someone knowing that if you trap him, he's among the best passers in the game, he still can create a lot of offense around that stuff.

But the idea of if you force the ball out of Luca's hands, it inevitably is going to end in like a Dorian Finney Smith prior to the trade, Tim Hardaway Jr. or like Josh Green. three is a little rocky of a place to be if you're talking about we want to win three or four playoff series in a row, which is what the Mavericks are ultimately playing for. So the idea that you have Kyrie to balance that ultimately. And clearly they have some kinks to work out in terms of the your turn, my turn stuff with that. But I think ultimately we've seen really good early signs from Kyrie in terms of being a part of that offense, willing to defer to other people, trying to set other guys up, trying to play a role within what they do. And offensive, they're going to be off the charts. The numbers are already really encouraging.

Defensively. What's that? I don't know. I don't know about that. What's half-court defense? What's point of attack defense? Look, I'll say this. It's funny because I felt like I was in the twilight zone. I talked to Habistrow on my part about the heatles. And I remember like a constant theme was, who takes the last shot? Yep.

And I saw that shit on ESVN. Just this morning about Kyrie and Luca to continue to LeBron and Luca parallels. What I think is I don't know that this year's team is necessarily better than before after the Kyrie Irvin trade. I think they are better positioned to be the type of team that wins championships with Kyrie Irvin and Luca Donchage in their building. Rather than Finney Smith and the spare parts that they shipped out to get Kyrie. Right now, they might not be better, but they're better positioned to add somebody who can provide a reasonable facsimile of whatever it is that Dodo did for the team, right? The 3 and D, whatever. That's easier to find than 28 point per game shooters.

I know we like to do the thing, and it sounds virtuous to be like, well, defense is half of the game. No, the people smarter than me have done studies on this. It's harder to generate quality offense than it is to generate. generate quality defense. And so for that reason, they are a better position. While maybe right this second on, you know, the day after Valentine's Day, maybe not a better team right now, Justin. It helps, it helps too that Josh Green is kind of, forgive this phrasing, like a proto-dodo.

You know, he's really shown some things defensively this season. Much more controlled offensive player. looks like a guy the Mabs are going to be able to count on for a couple of years here. So we'll see what his role ultimately shakes out. He reminds me of Grimes

and not just because they're both light skin like Zay. The singer? Don't drag Zay into this. Where are we on calling players by their nicknames? Because when Waz says it, it sounds like natural

but if I was like, hey, Dodo did not make the three today, I just sound... She's got to do it every day. His practice, his reps, my boy. People call Brandon Ingram B.I. and I'm like, that's a step too far.

First of all, that's a bad nickname. It's a terrible nickname. But you're not friends with them. You don't get to do that. I always felt this way when people would call Kyrie Kai. Yeah, never done it. I don't know about that. Never done it.

But, you know, I'd never called Katie the surgeon either. But that's just me. Do you think he'll bring that back to try to appeal to the... To the Arizona set? The Scottsdale set. That will go over great. In the place that didn't want to give Martin Luther King a holiday, I think. Yeah.

I need to flag that one. Yeah, let's fact check that, please. No, it's true. It's true. That was like a big thing in Arizona. They were like one of the last places to make Martin Luther King Day like a thing. I'm not making that part up. That's facts.

They've come a long way, I'm sure, since, though. I'm sure. We love the Arizona. So about the Mavericks. I'll say this. It's fascinating to watch. I have tuned into probably every game since Kyrie's been in there. And he's looked good.

In particular when Luca and Kyrie have played alongside each other, just watching them, like, who is going to take the shot. It seems like Luca, to his credit, is deferring, but you could definitely feel that Luca is deferring. It's a very conscious effort, and it feels almost unnatural to see him passing the ball off to someone. to the point where they're almost playing hot potato toward the end of their most recent game

against Minnesota Timberwolves where it was like I don't think they've figured this out. But, you know, it could be decent. By the way, man, like, I love Luca just as much as anybody, but we have to raise the expectation that he can make himself a player who's useful when he's not dribbling.

Like, I think he could do it. And, you know, he comes out of the damn Eastern Block, you know, played professionally in Spain. Those people play continuity offenses. He comes out of those systems. So this idea that he can't access that because he's come to the NBA and embrace this whole heliocentrism

where you just dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, and hog every single possession. I think we can expect more out of Luca and expect him and his greatness to be able to accomplish the feat of moving without the basketball. Seems reasonable to ask of a guy that's supposed to be an all-time great.

dare I say that Kyrie Irving should be a model of behavior for literally anyone. But honestly, I was very impressed with Kyrie's ability to do that with the Nets. He was always willing to play off ball with them. He would defer to James Hardin when he was there. He would defer to Kevin Durant, obviously. I think there's something there in terms of showing Luca. This is an elite shot maker who can get a shot whenever he wants. Look at the way he's willing to.

Sometimes just position himself in the corner, but also cut. Also move off the ball. Also add these other elements to his game. his sort of coming off of screens, catch and shoot stuff. Because again, like, with the ability to dribble. And, like, it's one thing when you are like,

oh, I'm willing to, you know, take a hard dribble towards the paint and try to finish. There's another thing when you actually can do it. And defenses have to react to how great you are at finishing. And what that could mean for everybody else. Like, I just think Luca just needs to, like,

all right, maybe he's not going to do it tomorrow. But, yeah, I'm willing to do things. when I don't dominate possessions. Yeah. Kyrie has a typical young player trajectory where he left LeBron in the hopes of kind of being his own guy and then has ultimately settled into this

realization that he's probably best is the number two. Exactly. Let's get the music sting under that, please. One thing I'll say, though, is there seems to be a big talk about how Kyrie doesn't want to discuss his upcoming free agency. And so there is this, like, looming issue

in the near future. On the other hand, though, seems like that just gives Kyrie more motivation to really be on his shit and actually play and figure this thing out, at least for the next couple months. Yeah, I mean, you know, as much he said some pretty, I don't know if you guys have been paying attention. He's been saying some pretty crazy things.

Shocked. Yeah, he said it was from day one, from year one, he's behind-the-scenes stuff from the Nets. He was putting things in place for this to happen, allegedly. Oh, yeah, by the way, have you seen also the James Hardin victory tour? Like, maybe sit that one out, my guy. He was basically like, yeah, like, I got out of there and this is why. Oh, Chase Hardin is doing that right now?

And I was like, we don't need this. Yeah, you do not need this, James Hardin. Yeah, just the guy who quit on two teams in a row and put out a contract demand on Christmas needs to probably chill. The reason why I don't mind Kyrie not want to talk about his deal, It's obvious. If the Mavs offer him a huge deal, he's going to sign it. There's nothing to really talk about here.

If they offer me a substantial deal, I'm going to sign. What more is there to say? I'm out of Brooklyn because they didn't. If the Mavs offer me a deal that I think is worthy of my talents, I'm assigned here. What else is there to say? Well, I mean, the suns come up and the Lakers come up. Like, you could trade, Chris, you could sign and trade. There's ways to make it happen.

What is Kyrie? going to say about that that's telling, or how would he even know between now and the end of the season for the maps? No. I mean, yeah, he was never going to be honest. What's he going to say? I'll be willing to take a weak-ass team-friendly deal. What is he really supposed to say

right now? I took that to mean that he very clearly has eyes elsewhere, but we're just going to pretend like this is fine for the time of year. That may very well be the truth, but I think it can also be true that it's like, I'm here, I'm going to bust my ass. I really want to get a big deal.

you know and what's the point of even talking about anything else not that i would ever pretend to know what kairie irvin is trying to say sure all right number six year which buyout guy because we are very much in buyout season my favorite god bless part of an NBA season where we pretend like guys who haven't played in weeks and months are going to make an impact on the title race uh number six which buyout guy if any will make the greatest impact over the stretch run I think it's Reggie Jackson, man. I really do. I think he's so sure.

He's legitimately can drive offense, especially against second units. And the non-yokage minutes where Denver's constantly trying to make sense of what they do on offense, Reggie Jackson does that. And I think, you know, he's not great at it, but he can play off of guys. He can play off the ball if you do ask him to be in. rotations with, you know, Yokic and even Jamal Murray. I think he slots well next to Jamal Murray even because he's played with Paul George, Kauai Leonard, all of these ball dominant sort of guys. And so I think Reggie Jackson is going to make a huge impact on what Denver's trying to do.

And he's got a chip on his shoulder. He's going to play. He's going to be important. And I think to our conversation about the sons earlier, Terrence Ross, surprised son, you know. It seemed like he was going to be a Maverick for a second there. he could be the answer to who can you rely on on that bench. Terrence Ross, though, has been the potential answer for like so many things for so many years. Yeah, I don't know.

And there's a reason he was not, ultimately. He's a guy who, like, again, Will Barton is in this category two of productive players over the course of their careers. Do you want them being the fourth or fifth guy in a lineup with other stars where they are going to know exactly what their moment is and is not? We'll see. I think there's some hope there. But ultimately, those guys are going to be important. And I don't know if he'll get bought out. But if Kevin Love hits the buyout market, he could be important for a lot of teams.

There are a lot of teams who could use one more rotation big. There are a lot of teams that could use one more shooter. We'll see if he's ultimately available or not. Yeah, so I have this list separated into two groups. One was the guys we aren't sure we'll be hitting the buyout market. That's Sarisorich, Derek Rose, Nerlin's Noel, Kevin Love, who hit his 11th straight D&P, which that was such a fun. Kevin loved on this list. He can play.

Yeah, it was such a fun story. So why's he not playing with Cleveland then? But you don't think like he would play for the heat? You don't think they would have room for him? I think there's enough teams that are like clogged up and need a little bit of spacing. Maybe Memphis could use him in a buyout. You know? They've got enough athleticism to surround him with where his inability to move his feet can be mitigated.

But man, this Kevin loved it. Remember when he was beating basketballs at his teammates because he was demanding a trade that never came? I think it's for a reason. I don't know. I think Derek Rose is actually, because business-wise, it makes the most sense to stay on the Knicks

and not take the buyout so I could see him actually just staying in New York. Dario Sarich, I have a weird relationship with because, you know, he's asset. He was one of the reasons why Sam Hakey was allegedly a genius. that he ended up getting this guy on the Sixers. And he drafted Dario Sarich and I'm like, oh my goodness.

And ever since then, people have been trying to convince me that he is just going to be a meaningful guy on a real team and now he's a buyout candidate. You got to let the pass go once. I will. You got to embrace the now. I'm over. I let it go.

Bygones v. Well, I think you have to actually go the opposite of that route. I want Patrick Beverly back in Minnesota. Can we get him on top of a table? rallying this team back to what they used to be. Now, I should say that the Timberwolves would probably have to cut a guaranteed contract in order to add Pat Babs. So based on current reporting, it seems unlikely. But I do feel like he is the type of player that the wolves need.

In part, and this kind of brings me to our next question, which is which player team will surge after the All-Star break. I almost feel like the wolves are just one guy away from really turning this around. Like it feels like they kind of exercised Delo at the trade deadline. And then you got the now they tell us stories all about how Delo didn't want to pass. Go bear the ball. And like what an issue that was. It just feels like. The notebook dump.

Yeah. And now it just feels like this team has completely like switched its focus and now has become the Anthony Edwards team that was destined to be. And I just have renewed hope for this team in a way. And I wonder if Pat Bev would buoy that get us back. to the vibes in Edwards and Fun and Jaden McDaniels that they kind of were on the path toward last season. I think the issue with Beverly for them is, do we have any reason to think that Pad Bev is a better player right now

than Jordan McLaughlin is? And that's, I'm not saying that doesn't mean that Jordan McLaughlin is great. I think he's a little better than, but I take the point is taking that. That's my ultimate point. Is he an upgrade? Because Pat Beverly is an outsized personality, for a extremely marginal player at this point. Yeah, but if they're playing the Lakers in the play-in,

you know he's going to do some shit. And it might torpedo the wolves, but it also might swing the-in. He's definitely going to fall out. They're not going to play. They're not going to play in. They're not going to play in because the Lakers aren't going to make the play-in. Oh, Lord.

Tough. Not a problem. It's tough. But what do we think about the wolves in general? Like, are we buying the turnaround here? Yeah. They're on the upswing, for sure. Yeah.

You know, I'm as high as in. anybody on the Conley deal already paying dividends with Rudy Gobert immediately. So Gobert was nine for nine in the first game with Mike Conley. It reminds me of someone who buys a Peloton but then doesn't buy the subscription for it. So like you just have the bike and it's just not as useful. They finally got the thing that you need to make the high-priced item works. So Gobert is the Peloton machine itself. Yes.

And Mike Conley is the subscription. It's like if you had a very expensive guitar, but you didn't have the right amplifier to play it on. Right. It wasn't making the right music. I would stick with the Peloton. If you get the Peloton and you're just in your garage or whatever, doing it by yourself without the instructor, you know, the instructor, you know, jams from the 90s, like it's just less useful. And Mike Conley is that Peloton instructor.

I thought this was pretty good. So you're saying, no, I'm not bad at it. You're saying for the last couple months, Rudy Gober has been like a clothes rack. basically in the Timberwolds living room. Exactly. When you don't want to put it in the dryer and shrink your clothes, you just lay it on the peloton. But no, I'm a fan of it.

And also, I'm just a fan of it because it's going to allow Ann Edwards to do more. Conley is so good at sliding in between table setting and playing off a guy. Like, he already did it for years with Donovan Mitchell. And so that's why I think the Conley move is so beautiful, because it's going to allow Ant to become a better version of himself, just much more so than Delo. And I've said enough about that, dude, we did a breakout video of my opinion. I watched that breakout video the other day.

I was like, damn. Oh, my God. Somebody just saw this and nothing else. It's just like, oh, did this guy have sex with my girlfriend or something? But no, I really do think that they're going to surge this season. And another team, and they're already going to. that direction with the seven-game winter street, but I think the calves are going to fight for a number one seed

because not only are they starting to blow teams the hell out, they're in striking distance, and their guys are coming back, and as the season is sort of settled, and they had that little low where they were like 29 and 20, guys were out with injury, and I was like, damn, like, are they not going to, like, really fight for this top three seed that we thought when the season started and now,

it's just like, no, they're rolling. And I really do think legitimately, especially with the Celtics, finally catching the injury bug. And, you know, the bucks being the bucks, I really think they could get snagged that number one seed. Yeah, Cleveland's basically tied with the Celtics for the lead in point differential. Overall, the entire NBA this season. And you know who should be really happy that Kevin Durand is not in the Eastern Conference?

The Cleveland Cavaliers. That is a team that was not equipped for a mid-range heavy office. Oh, Dean Wade was up for the task, man. It's less than. That and more like, the virtue of having these great defensive bigs is protecting the rim. And the nets, as previously constructed, weren't really interested in getting there. But now, you know, I think Cleveland matches up really well with a lot of the top Eastern conference teams. They're not getting out of the second round.

But we could pretend. We could say that the calves are great. The bucks of 11 straight and we're like, oh, the calves. It's not the bucks I'm worried about. Really? Who are you worried about? Well, save that for another podcast. so coy in person.

Rob, who do you have for this question? For me, as discussed previously, it's the Clippers. I think they are moving in the right direction. Kauai, I am only more and more convinced,

is ready to perform at an elite level throughout the playoffs. I like the moves they made, not just because, I think they actually walked the line really well between kind of consolidating but not giving up the meaning of their depth. Right?

Like they switched out some of the names some of the bodies, some of the skill sets. They're still one of the deepest teams in the NBA, but there's a little bit more clarity to what they do and who's going to play. All right. That's the podcast. That's it.

In person. That's how we do it. Sick. Rob didn't even use his notepad this time. Didn't need it. Should you do more of these? This was fun. Absolutely.

Rob need to move to L.A. We'll do it every single week. You're going to pay my relocation fee? We can work on it, brother. We can work on that. We can work on that. some people. Look, Bill wants to put me up in the guest house we can talk. All right.

That's it for this episode. Hey, just quickly next week we're going to be running a special edition of the Ringier NBA show, I believe on Tuesday in which Jordan Ritter Khan goes and travels to the Balkans in order to figure out what the secret is for all of these players

who have come over, including Luca Donchison Nicola Yokic. Did he find out why we can't just do this stuff in places like Indiana? You know, like, why can't we reproduce this in a America. We are a broken country, as the answer was. Listen and find out.

The address is just that. I worked on this with Jordan. It's a really great audio feature, and there will be a component on the website as well. So check both of those out. Also, next week, we will not be back. We're going to take the week off to improve our wellness. It is Wellness Week at Spotify.

So we're going to take some time to chill post All-Star in order to charge the batteries up to hit the stretch run running. you know. Is that what they say? Literally no one does. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. He is also here with us. Great to see Isaiah. Eduardo Ocampo.

It's also somewhere on this big old screen, just doing stuff in the background. We'll see you next time.