The Ringer NBA Show - The Sixers Are ... Fine? Plus, More Knicks Drama, and Oh My God, Zion | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 12, 2020

Despite concerns surrounding Joel Embiid’s incendiary comments earlier this week, the Philadelphia 76ers defeated the Los Angeles Clippers; could this be the year the Embiid–Ben Simmons experiment succeeds (1:24)? Plus: The New York Knicks keep making headlines for all the wrong reasons, as their new brand consultant, Steve Stoute, publicly comments on the future of interim head coach Mike Miller (32:00), and rookie star Zion Williamson continues to amaze (41:35). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Chris Ryan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, it's Liz Kelly. We have a new podcast launching this week exclusively on Spotify with Chris Ryan and Chuck Gloucesterman called Music Exists. Here's the trailer. Hello, this is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at The Ringer.com. Hello, this is Chuck Losterman. I'm a friend of Chris Ryan and The Ringer. And this is Music Exists, a podcast where we talk about how we think about music.

Yeah, this is not a podcast where we tell you what music to listen to or we necessarily comment on what's happening in the culture. now or what you should be listening to tomorrow before your friends do. This is a podcast about thinking about music, even when it's not playing. Yeah, how does music shape the world you see around you, the world you feel around you? How does it make you feel about yourself? Yeah, particularly if the music that makes you feel things about yourself is Steely Dan or Black Sabbath. Or Radiohead. Yeah, that happens. That comes up a lot.

Music exists, a podcast about Radiohead. Available exclusively on Spotify. Spotify. Basketball is very good. The rockets need to go even smaller. The Spurs have the best Luca in Texas. The Clippers didn't give enough for Marcus Morris. Basketball is very good.

Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is the group chat. I am Justin Varyer. And joining me across the table, our very own brand consultant here at the Ringer, Chris Ryan. What's up, buddy? I'm the Al Hortford of this podcast. Well, that's not good because... Benched. Benched, but still

I have someone to take. I ran into Chris the other day. He's like, every time you have a podcast without me, you're always like, it was so great. Yeah. Chemistry was amazing. Yeah, no. This one you're definitely needed for. Thanks, man. We're going to, well, you're needed for all of them. Well, this one in particular.

I'm in a much better mood today than I would have been 48 hours ago about this topic that we're going to discuss. Right. Isaac is also here in case we need to talk about some Marcus Morris heat checks. Marcus Morris. I'd rather not. Really? I'd rather not talk about Marcus Morris. We'll probably get to it eventually. Charks isn't with us. He is spotting for the mismatch this week. You can catch him tomorrow, but first, we have a lot to talk about. Yeah.

About our guide, Joelle Embed. Yeah. Should I just run down the timeline of the past few days? I think for anybody who's been living under Iraq or following the New Hampshire primaries for the last 48 hours, you should just let them know what happened. All right, this might take about as long as Iowa to get the results back, but here we go. The Embeddead timeline reads as follows, after four straight losses, Embed was booed before a win Friday, Memphis. In Sunday's game, which is a win over the Bulls,

he was caught telling fans to shut up twice, one of which, I believe, after hitting a three, he said, shut the fuck up. So just to really put some punctuation to it after the game. This was in Philadelphia.

Not in Chicago. Yes, that's an important video. Thank you. After the game, he downplayed the moment. He's like, basically, I don't care how it looks. He talks about,

like, leaning into being a good asshole, which became the sound bite for the next couple days. I'm not really sure what it means, specifically, but I think he was trying to get to the point where he was going back to what he used to be. He was being the guy who just says things and put the Instagrams up and whatever, doing his Jewel and B thing. In part, because of that, the following day, even though he says

that this isn't a big deal, puts up an Instagram in which he has shown shushing the crowd in the photo and his caption reads, you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain, hashtag the process. You got to have nothing but respect for guys who quote Batman. Right. Yes. No one's ever done it. It's a very original move.

Always very poignant. Jimmy Butler, our friend, down in Miami, sees this. I had to comment, I know a place where villains are welcome shruggy emoji. Embed takes the bait as he's wanted to do.

Damn right. My brother. I like it. Jimmy was asked to follow up about this in San Francisco. I believe the next night and his response. Again, pretty great.

Bad guys rule. Ain't that right? And that takes us to last night going into the game against the clippers. Pretty big one, not only just for the scope of the regular season, but also for our guy, Joelle Embed. He heard booze yet again in pregame introductions.

They kind of dissipated as the game went along, but he was still getting booed, I believe, when he checked out in favor of Al Horford who got benched last night. Earlier in the game, I think it was a couple of minutes into the game. But by the end, he started playing to the crowd more. He actually performed well,

and they kind of welcome them back with open arms. So that brings us to today. The Sixers actually won, by the way, which is an important part. And Bede ended up with 26 points and 9 rebounds, 28 minutes. Beating the Clippers. Beating the Clippers. We're pretty big deal these days.

So, Chris, my question for you is, what the hell do we make of this? Okay. Well, the Sixers do two things. Okay. They beat title contenders and make drama, and they are all out of drama for this week, I guess. So, you know, again,

it's basically, Every time you want to quit on this team because they let the bulls back into a game or the grizzlies back into a game, and every time it just seems like this is just a colossal mistake of roster building, they do something like this where you're just like, they kind of had the clippers, like, stiff-armed the entire game. And they looked like one of the best teams in the league, which is exactly what they were assembled to be. In a weird way, I think that they look better and make more sense when they're playing against way better competition than when they are playing against a gris, a spurs, a pacer's, or whatever, a teams with probably lesser talent.

I had this whole Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross speech written about Embed. Yeah. This is all bullshit. Like, this is all a distraction. He is, it's not about whether or not he's allowed to be Joel Embed. If he wants to be Joe Embedd, the ham and the drama queen and the guy who's like renting out space in Andre Drummond's head and talk. walking shit and making memes,

he's in the right place. Philly is not like Indiana, like Bob Knight basketball. Like, it's not like, hey, play the right way. Pull your socks up. Right. It's like Philadelphia loves villains and Philadelphia loves characters.

People are mad because they think MB's out of shape. And people are mad because he is not playing very well. He has good county numbers. But if you watch him even last night, there seems to be a degradation of his technique, honestly. Like, you know, I think that even his like go-to move last night was fall backwards into Montrez Harrell and throw the ball up in the air.

Right. So I personally think, without knowing anything about it, is that Joel Embed came back way too early from this hand injury because he wants to go to the All-Star game and participate in a lot of the stuff that's going to be happening around Kobe, and it's just going to be a very important time to be an NBA player next this week. You know what I mean? I don't blame him for that, but he does not look healthy.

He doesn't look like he's in basketball shape. He obviously is letting himself get taken out of games mentally on a pretty regular basis. And the crowd booed him. And that sucks because that's like Philly has a reputation for getting under the skin of their own players, which is not what you want. But at the end of the day, I think that the booze you hear, even like when there was a smattering of booze last night, That's not the majority of Sixers fans. They're just the loudest ones.

It's really, I think, a distraction from, like, the larger, more systemic problems about the Sixers, but it also tells a story about what an experiment, this whole era of this franchise has been, and how much scrutiny it's been under because it's an experiment. It's an experiment in tanking. It's an experiment in constantly rebuilding the roster on the fly. It's an experiment about when you give the keys

to a pair of guys who are, I mean, are they, they're not even 25 yet, are they? Like, Joel and Ben. I don't think so. Right. And say, we think you are, our LeBron and Anthony Davis. Ben Simmons and Joe Embed are not LeBron and Anthony Davis. It's not going to be all about them.

And what we saw last night was what this team can look like if Josh Richardson and Tobias Harris and Al Horford are used properly. Yeah, there's a lot of unpacked there. I think the biggest thing for me is what you said up top And Embed is indeed 25. We just looked it up. But yeah, still young. It just feels like

Embed needs these situations to get through his day, to get through the season. And that's what worries me. It was fun at first. The Andre Drummond in the head sort of situation. It kind of keeps things fresh. It's probably why in the Ben Simmons,

Joel, Embed civil war, if there is one among Sixers fans, it does feel like Sixers fans tend to lean towards Joel. He's the personality. He's the process. nickname. He's taken on that, like the whole identity of this

whole movement that Sixers fans have been a part of very long. Sixers fans have been, I'm not sure if you're aware, of tending to be a little bit cultish in how they follow this team. Good. There should be more NBA teams that have cult-like followings. Right. That would be better for the league.

Sure. And it's great. But I think this is where it kind of turns on him and them where seems like they don't know how to get through a season without this. And I worry if some of these things that were cutesy and fun to begin with now that the stakes are higher, now that the pressure is on for this to work, I wonder if these things start to become more nagging,

especially to someone like Brett Brown, whose job seems to be on the line pretty much every day. Oh, yeah, it is. It is. Because, like, I, so two things there. One, this is really a matter not only about, it's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of expectation setting. And I think that the expectation is that the fact that Kauai Leonard's, is based on the fact that the fact that Kauai Leonard's shot last year in the Eastern Conference semifinals bounced four times. Because it makes it seem like it was some sort of simple twist of fate that the Sixers didn't go to the conference finals.

Rather than Toronto was probably a better team. It's definitely a better team. They won the finals. I didn't mean that Canada. I just mean Toronto was a better team than the Sixers. But the bounces made it seem like, oh, a coin flip. Yeah. It could have been, it could have been us.

It couldn't have been, right? So that's, that's number one. Number two is you come out of that and you start to say, well, we're it not for like weird gravitational poles in the Rogers gym. We would have been in the Eastern Conference of miles. So we're final contenders is what we are. And we're going to do this. We're going to go out, trade Jimmy, get Josh Richardson, get Al Horford.

And we're going to say like we're going into the season with the expectations that we have built the team of Yonah. destroyers. Okay. So if you're one game worse than Miami at this point in the season, you're going to be viewed as a failure, and Miami is going to be viewed as a complete and total surprise and like one of the feel-good stories of the season. But what we're talking about is one game. So it's like that's what happens when you're so involved in your own narrative and you're so involved in telling the story to your fans and to the rest of the league that this is a place like you can win the finals here. Yeah. And the reality is that that

team that was there in the East semi-finals last year is no longer here. They changed critical elements of that team, Jimmy in particular, and also JJ Redick. It's not there. And you've definitely seen, especially earlier in the season, where they've needed a guy like him at the trade deadline, they brought in

Alec Berks, they brought in Glenn Robinson III, and perhaps that those guys can kind of fill that gap, but the shooting has not been there. And we've said this a bunch already. Like, this team kind of ebbs and flows based on when they're hitting threes. And as you saw on Christmas Day, when they blew out the bucks, they're hitting threes and everything's good. But when they're not, it just doesn't really work. And I think last

night, I think that's probably the biggest takeaway for me, for just the big picture of the season, is just Al Horford didn't start. And that is a pretty big acknowledgement that the team that they built, at the very least in the regular season, does not work. Right. At least the starting lineup that they've built does not work as well as it should. And I think that's the big thing to watch going forward. So they bench Horford. They started Kork Mazz who had played really well, of like, I think in the past few games, he'd had 34 and 31. And so just to get more shooting on the floor. And I don't know what to make of it right now.

The sample size is too small. But you definitely saw a huge tradeoff between when Joel and Ben were playing together and when it was Ben in El Horford. So the number is just to put into context, Horford ended up playing 28 minutes. He was a plus 10 in those minutes. And the 19 minutes without Embed next to him, the Sixers were plus 27.8 net rate.

rating, the nine minutes with Embedd and Horford on the floor, they were 10.2 net ratings. So not bad, but the offensive rating just dipped precipitously. Absolutely. And so that is probably the thing they need to figure out besides the Juel drama situation, which seems to do with Horford as an offensive player when Simmons is also on the floor. Yeah, they need to figure out the rotation. Yeah, right. They're clearly still tinkering with things, and it's probably as much a result of the deadline trades as anything.

Or sorry, when Embed and El Horford share the floor. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know what their best lineup is at this point. And I don't know what this means for the future of Al Horford. He's just going to be a 20 minute a game sort of player,

25 minute a game player, and he's more of a chains of pace. And you just kind of save him until the Buck Series when you need those two big bodies. I don't know. This will be the inflection point of whether Brett Brown is the coach or not next year. You know, I think that the expectations are still the same. I think that in the last week or so,

I don't know if you guys remarked upon it last week, but Elton Brand literally set out a new chain of command where he was like, before Brett and Elton were both reporting to the owner, now Brett reports to Elton Brand. That's like a subtle change. It may not make a difference to most people. But what it means essentially is that there is not like a separate chain of command here. And Brett Brown's job is not indefinitely secure in a Popovich kind of way.

Because when Brand was brought on, when he was elevated to that position. He was kind of seen as Brett's guy. Right. And Brett was functionally in charge at that point, no? Right. Yes. He took over in an interim capacity after Colangelo left. And then Brand came in and it was at least perceived that Elton and Brett were kind of running things together. Now, the reason why I even bring that up and bring it up in relationship to the Horford thing is that any place you work, you were asked to make the best of things. So I don't know whether Brett Brown was like, what we need to beat the bucks and what we need to beat all these other. to the Celtics and maybe a reconstituted Raptors.

What we need is Al Horford. Not Brogden. Not anybody else that might have been available last summer. And not Campbell Walker, you know, whatever. They got Al Horford in. Whoever's decision that was has to live with it. And if it was Alton Brand's decision and Brett Brown can't make it work, it's not going to be Elton Brand's fault this season.

Because Brett Brown's had a lot of time with this team. And even though he's had to basically coach four teams in two years, years, it's still, this is literally the referendum on whether or not he continues as a Sixers because I guarantee you as the Sixers coach, because the next guy in for a job interview there, he's going to say he can make Simmons and Embed work together. Guess what? The owners want to hear that. They want to hear that somebody can come in and fix these two possibly generational talents

and get them to play well together. Forget all the clutch CAA stuff. forget. Ben doesn't shoot. Joel pops. It's so stupid. Ben Simmons is one of the best two-way players in the league, and Joel Embed is one of the best big men in the league and one of the best players in the league when he's got his

shit together. So if you're a coach, you're not going to go in there and be like, I'll come coach you guys, but the first thing you've got to do is trade Embed to Oklahoma. Yeah. Fuck that. Nobody's going to do that. It's just crazy because this franchise has made so many transactions.

I know. Over the past, whatever, three years. to the point where they just had so many second round picks just lying around that they couldn't use that giving up three in order to get GR3 and Alec Berks from the Warriors, it was just like no big deal. And I actually think if we're looking at Elton Brand's resume, I think it's probably one of the best moves he's made, is getting two guys who give them exactly what they need

to fill out their bench, they're adults, they're not guys like Shake Milton that they're just throwing out there and hoping that they're going to be fine that game. Even QuarkMod's who's been playing well, didn't play well last night, to the point where they opened the second half with JR3 just to get somebody else in there.

It could be the new Osova and Bellinelli, which it feels like we say all the time, but they're exactly that. They add more shooting to a team that desperately needs shooting. JR3 is a 3-D guy. I think he would fit really well, and I wouldn't be surprised

if he starts playing Crush time, and you already saw Alec Burke's handling the ball a little bit more. Yeah. But, and we should say last night, a lot of the fourth quarter point guard duties were handled by Josh Richardson, and he looked great last night. Yes.

Yes. Yeah. They need more ball handlers on that team and why they didn't get a conventional ball handler like Derek Rose, you know, between Ben, between Josh, between Alec Berks, those guys, like, they could do enough of it, you know, Horford's a smart passer, they have really good passers on the team. But ultimately, all these transactions boil down to the Horford signing. That's going to be the decision whether or not that

kind of why this team works with Ben and Joel. Yeah, I think that if they need to deal him next summer and if they can come to some sort of conclusion about where he goes. Horford? Yeah, they'll probably get 75. on the dollar for that. That's the thing. He's old. He's clearly like laboring the season. He's been injured the past two seasons. It seems like it's affecting him. He's a very smart player and you can definitely see how Ben thrives next to Horford as opposed to Embed. And now this is the point where Sixers fans just get up in arms because this is the thing that drives them crazy, right? That we're driving a wedge between Joel and Ben. They can play together. They're fine. They're two premier talents. Just let them figure it out. The difference is, yes, they play well. together. And they played well together last night. I think they were just like a seven something net rating on the floor together. But when it's just Ben

without Joelle and it's Horford there who provides a little bit more stretch is a bit more deferential, Ben just is breathing fresh air. It's also... We've said this a million times. A thrill ride. Yes, it's just so entertaining. Perhaps that's coloring the perception a little bit

is that it's just, it's invigorating to just watch Ben just kind of just run around and set screen now and do all these different things, he's definitely leaning into this idea that he's not just who he was. He's being a little bit more involved in the flow of the offense, being a more willing

screen setter, he's cutting a little bit more. It's great to watch. The line forms to the left. I'm waiting for my Ben Simmons' apologies. Okay. Okay? Like, that guy has been my favorite player to watch this season.

I know I would say that. But watching him like bulldozed through the Clippers, attempts at screening him off of Kauai and Paul George and just like there was a play at the end of the fourth towards the end of the fourth quarter last night where he was just hunting Kauai across the floor

and Paul George like kind of half-heartedly tried to set a pick and Ben just like blew him up and they called an offensive foul because Paul wasn't set and it was like you could just see that Ben Simmons was not going to let the Sixers lose defensively. He was going to make sure that like if Kauai was going to get some four-bounce jumper, it was going to be over his dead body.

And that's like, it's really strange. Like the Sixers fan generally, like the fans are generally more emotionally invested in Embed and it's much more of a psychodrama. But like, I have not watched a game this season where I've been like Ben Simmons is sponing this in. Yes, and that was also a big part of it before, right? At the end of the day,

Embed was the more productive play. He only went to LSU for five minutes and has never played in a tough game in his life. It has no idea what it takes to win. I watched that guy, I've watched that guy like 30 times this year. I'm never disappointed by him. And if you want, we can go into like the code of the ESPN.com scoring system

and add an 0 for three and three-pointers every night if that makes people feel better. Because it doesn't matter to me. It just doesn't. He is a much better player, which is crazy to say because, yeah, we all talk him up all the time. He was a top 25 player. It seemed like when he finally played as a rookie or second year after missing the first year. Red shirt, whatever. Red shirt, yeah.

He is appreciably better, particularly on defense. He is a fucking, like, he's incredible on that end. And he just flies around. If you're going to build the perfect defender for 2020, it would be him because he moves so well,

particularly laterally. He's very athletic, but he has the body of what is functionally a center now. And he just, like, he switch on to anybody. He's the toughest assignment every single night.

And before... He guarded Paul and Kowah last night. And before you could say, at the end of the day, and Bede is so much better, right? He's more productive. His rim protection stats are just incredible. Right.

That even though he takes these wild threes that Ben won't take, he's just overall the better player. I don't know if you could say that anymore. I think Ben is basically coming of age. And I think not only is he becoming better, he's also more available. Outside of his first season that he missed, he's always playing.

I think it was 81 games his second season, 79th season after that. And like, he just doesn't miss as much time. And which is the big thing with Embed, as good as he is, he's just not going to be out there as much, and you have to hold that against him. Yeah, and so... He played 43 minutes last night.

And against Kauai Leonard and Paul George. Embedde played 28. Yeah. And I know he's coming back from this entry. That's what I want. Yeah. That's what I want. That is what it's supposed to be.

Joe Embedde probably won't win an MVP award anytime soon. There's just too much other shit going on in this league. And to play, like, that whole thing that they did with him last season, where they clearly were trying to make a run. at the MVP trophy and playing him in games where they were up 12 or 15 with two minutes left

and like him just trying like I don't say I wouldn't say stat padding but he was definitely out there way more than he needed to be and he clearly ran out of gas in the second half of the season and I think that that is also part

of what he's talking about when he's like I gotta be me I gotta be the asshole is like he's like I want to play the way I want to play now I don't agree with him going out there when his fingers stapled onto his hand

I don't think the six are going to get home court advantage in the playoffs. So I would rather have a very healthy, pissed off Embed on the road in the playoffs, even though the Sixers are dog shit on the road, then I would having a tired MBEed who gutted it out to get the three seed. And that's what I worry about Mbid, that he might not win an MVP in his career, but he clearly wants to,

or he thinks he should be in that conversation constantly. and if they're not winning as many games as he thinks he should, and if he thinks that's a result of Ben Simmons not shooting threes or whatever he thinks it is, or if he just takes his animosity out in the crowd, whatever. I do worry if the Miami's of the world are out there whispering in your ear, Jimmy Butler is getting in your mention being like, hey, you could win that here. I'll defer to you. We'll just, we'll figure it out.

Don't worry about Ben Simmons. Don't worry about Brett Brown. Just ask out, come here. And that's the thing with Embed. I think he's a bit more. it's weird to say of a loose canon. Like the things that make him so lovable, the personality, the theatrics, the antics, all this stuff,

it's also what makes me worry about him long term. So I don't know. And I also think it's present when you talk about like the split between home and road. Yes. So 25 and 2 at home. Yes. Literally have as many wins as anybody in the league at home.

They're tied with Milwaukee. Yeah. Have a better record because Milwaukee's also lost three at home. nine and 19 away from your home court that's unbelievable and right now they're not like it doesn't seem like

they're going to get home court advantage in the playoffs and I'm very worried about what happens if that doesn't happen and a trickle-down effect toward going into the off season because if they can't win it on the road in the regular season

I don't know how they're going to do this against I don't know whoever they play in the first round Miami well I mean if they had season ends of today it would be they'd be visiting the white widow, man. It's just, and I think it just feeds into this idea that they kind of need to, they need to feel

the third rail, and beat in particular. Like, they need the crowd, they need the drama. They're a blackjack player that needs to be down 200 to feel like it. Right. Yeah. They like to lose, like they feel losing more than they feel winning. Yeah. And that worries me.

Having said all of that, let me play devil's advocate here. Okay. I'm going to heel turn on my heel turn. Great. I'm going to face turn. You're going to body slam yourself. Is there a world where last night they figured it all out, that last night is the recipe for what they can do to win big in the playoffs.

So Embedde plays 20-something minutes. You use him less than is ideal, but probably better for the rest of your roster to get guys like Horford in to allow Ben to have his bend time. And Horford comes off the bench. Is still productive. Again, you're limiting his minutes. and he's getting older, and so perhaps you want him in shorter bursts.

And yet, at the end of the day, if you need to get to the finals, you need to get through Milwaukee, most likely. And you will have that too big approach that could potentially turn that series in your favor. The only problem with asking guys to take diminished roles like that or to play within a very controlled rotational system like that is that it has to work.

If they lose, if they lose another four games in a row sometime in March, it will get bad because those guys will be like don't fucking blame me I'm just sitting here on the bench with Alec Berks they're going to say that

because it's like it's one thing if they play 38 minutes and they just get beat and it's just like you know well I mean in that case they probably just blame the offense or whatever they blame whatever tactically is going on

or Ben not shooting but if everybody is like I mean you hear that all the time you hear that in every sport I'll play my role if it works If it doesn't, you're going to hear me chirping about it. So it really is a wait-and-see thing.

I know. And it just seems like the rest of the league, the dynamics are starting to build that might put external pressure on the situation. So there obviously is enough within the Philadelphia organization in order for this situation to boil not only the Joe and Ben thing, that seems like it's always kind of at a slow simmer.

People need to get a grip. Because you need to understand what basketball was like in Philadelphia between Ivers, in it now. And I have a plenty of amount of affection for Drew Holiday and Andre Aguadala and everything that happened kind of in between there. But people need to realize like these guys, it's going to be very difficult for this ownership group and for Elton Brand to be able to look anybody in the eye if they trade one of these guys. And it better be for, it better be for somebody like in the same class because I don't think that they're going to be like,

hey, we got the 2022 number one pick, man. That's, pretty cool, right? We just did that. So you're saying don't trade Embed for Montrez-Harrel and Landry Shammett? Yes, I'm saying that. This really drives a snake into my heart. But no, I think this is interesting, though. Do you think ultimately they'll have to split them apart, though? I'm not without a new coach. Not without a whole other

if, let's say they lose in the semifinals of the Eastern Conference again. And let's say it's not to Milwaukee. Let's say it's, you know, let's say someone winds up being one of Boston, Toronto, Miami. me. If they lose in the second, I think Brett's gone. And I think whoever comes in does something different, whether it's like, and that's one of the weirdest things about coaching right now, the coaching scene right now is like, I don't know who the heir apparent is anywhere. I don't think that there is a, you know, you could make the argument about Jay Wright or Tony Bennett or somebody like that to me. I've, I've no idea. I don't know if there is like a absolutely blockbuster

assistant just waiting to get their gig. I don't know that Fisdale coming in like changes anything here. So it's really weird. I mean, like, I do think though that those guys are probably looking around and seeing the Taylor Jenkins's of the world and being like, huh?

Okay. Like, yeah. I mean, Taylor Jenkins also has an easier job because the stakes are so much lower. Sure. And he does have like the best one, two, who fit perfectly together. Yeah.

No, but I think that's a good point though, because look at John Beeline, You're just like picking off one of the better coaches in college. It didn't really work for them for the Cavs. Right. I mean, they have a lot of issues and believe it more so than Philadelphia, but it's not as simple as that. And that was probably the best case for keeping Brett last off season, right?

Like who was the next guy? Right. Yes, Brett isn't perfect, but like who are we going to get to fix this situation? Right. Is it Ty Lou, is Tyloo fixed this? Monty Williams would have been interesting. He's done a good job with the Sixers, and it does feel like he's kind of created order within that team.

You don't really see, when's the last. time an NBA coach left one job for another. It's been a while, right? I feel like there's a very obvious example of this. Yeager did it with the Kings, but it usually involves some animosity or something driving the coach out of the situation, probably more than... No, but I mean like a guy being like, I am currently employed, but leaving for a different MBA job. Almost like signing in free agency? Yeah. It doesn't really happen because a lot of the best coaches get signed to extensions as they're doing well. Right. Like Dan Tony, for instance, he's going to be free agent this summer. This is probably his last dance with the Rockets if they don't win a title.

That's okay. I don't know, man. This doesn't surprise anybody, but it does feel like the situation is going to come to a head. Seems like it's going to happen this offseason if they don't make sure the finals. I do think it's interesting to watch all the external factors happening. Not only Jimmy Butler and Miami, but all of a sudden, Joel Embed's agent is now in charge of the Knicks. So I do want to talk about that, but let's first take a break to hear from our sponsors. Today's episode of The Ringer MBA show, group chat is brought to you by Zorro.com. If you purchase supplies for a small to mid-sized business, Zorro.com, Zorro.com is your go-to resource. At Zorro, you'll find all the things that keep a business running no matter what kind of business you're in. Zorro offers tools, safety equipment, cleaning and maintenance supplies, office and shipping, automotive, industrial equipment, and more, including the specialty items you can't find anywhere else, whether you're shopping for,

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visit z oro.com slash MBA and sign up for Z-mail to get 15% off your first order. That's Zoro.com slash MBA and sign up for Z-mail for 15% off. Zorro.com all you need to make your business go. And now, back to the show. All right, we're back. It's Chris. It's Justin. It's Isaac. Let's talk about the next. Okay. That'll make me feel better. So as bad as things have been earlier in this week with the Sixers,

seems like it's been much worse for the Knicks. It seems that way? Well, it always is, I guess. So our guy, Steve Stout, who Chris is very familiar with from the New York rap scene. Yeah, man, he used to be Noss's guy. Yeah. When I was just a rap critic, I suppose. You were hanging out at the 40-40 club with him.

I never got into 40. I think I went to 40-40 once for like a record release party. Was ESPN on the screen? Probably. It's disappointing that I missed out on that. Okay. So Steve Stout is not. now the, in quotes, brand consultant for the New York Knicks. He was hired to that job at the end of January.

Basically, to try to make the Knicks cool again is his job. And I don't think the Knicks have been veiling that at all. They've been very upfront that they need help, which is actually some progress. If we're going to give them some credit, they have a problem and they're trying to address it. It just seems like in a very dole and move, he tends to pick people who just like are more interested in probably taking his money or just like not like appropriate for the position that they're in. Sure. So our guy, Steve, in his media tour, decides to go on to first take on Tuesday. During the segment, he says the following couple things.

He admits that the biggest thing for the Knicks is getting free agents. Sure, right? Doesn't seem like they have a plan there. A lot of their draft picks don't seem to be working out. So the best way to get better, just lure people to MSG to the big market of New York, come play for one of the biggest franchises in all of sports. Makes a lot of sense. he keeps going on though unfortunately

compares to the Knicks bringing him in to the Raptors bringing in Drake Ah yes I see what he's going for there In his mind he's probably some sort of rap Luminary I think it's just about making the Knicks cool Because I think that that Jay

And the association Jay had with the Nets And then the subsequent rebranding of the Nets And the opening of the new gym And everything like that Like that was supposed to be And it worked because they got Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant. If that's the goal is to get guys who put butts in seats

and legitimize the franchise, it worked. Fortunately, I don't know if Steve Stout is that guy. And unfortunately, he has a habit of saying things perhaps a little over his head. So he goes on basically insinuates that the Knicks need a new coach. Unfortunately, he is not authorized to say such things. The Knicks a few hours later after he goes on first takes, issue, press release, it was a joint one with Stout, so he's involved in this.

Sure he was. Basically saying, Stout does not speak on behalf of New York Knicks personnel and basketball operations. Sounds like a real co-author job. Well, I think it's important, though, because while they are making it clear probably for their head coach, Mike Miller, who has done a pretty good job, basically he's trying to set him at ease and say that, like, he doesn't really speak for us. Don't worry about this dog. It does feel like Stout has sway within your organization. And I think the biggest example of that is that Leon Rose, leader of CAA, one of the biggest agents in basketball, is now set to be the team president.

Yeah. So things are happening and it seems like things are going stout's way. And let's be honest, Mike Miller probably isn't coming back. Yeah. I mean, did anyone think Mike Miller was going to be the coach of the Knicks for 10 years? No. It does, I was disappointed that they didn't take the opportunity to form a Mike Miller, Mike Miller front office regime. That is true.

Yeah. That would have been cool. The Millers. Yes, it would have been a sitcom on ABC as well. Here's my thing. I'm going to go contrarian on this one. I think Stout's in a good place, and I think he's right about all of this. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know. He's taking a lot of shit, and I just don't think that in the big picture he's wrong. I think going on first take, and I think being incredibly candid, it doesn't dissuade people from thinking that the Knicks are a Clancho. So that's the first thing. It's like if he had done this in a vacuum, I think I would. have been bad, and I think it would have been bad that he was like Mike Miller, rent, don't buy. But if it weren't for the last 20 years of Nick's bullshit, like, we probably wouldn't even

be like, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. But it seems almost like the garden is haunted. And it seems like no matter what pivot they try to make to fill, to Scott Perry, to youth, to contract flexibility, roster flexibility so that we could always be a player in the free agent market to firing Steve Mills mid-season putting all the pressure out there, like, or all the leaks that it's like, it's Maasai, and then it's like, actually, it's not, it's Leon Rose. Which is fine. You know what I mean?

Like, this is seemingly worked in a couple of other instances where a guy's come out of the agent field taken over a front office, and it's worked out pretty well, case and point, the Lakers this season. Yeah, I think the idea is a good one. I think, especially in recent history, the Knicks haven't had a lot of good ideas. They've tended to just kind of try to pick off the top guy in the market. Phil Jackson was the prime example of that.

I always thought that the Phil move made a lot of sense in theory. And it showed, after all these years of Dolan meddling, that he was at the very least willing to concede that he doesn't know everything, that he doesn't have the answers and he needs someone in there to fix it. Unfortunately, just picked the wrong guy. I'm getting somewhat I'm getting those vibes again

with this decision. It seems like in theory it makes a lot of sense. A lot of organizations have had success with that. Not only the Lakers getting in Rapalinka, Bob Myers also notably from the agent ranks. There have been other examples of this. Bob Myers, I think, had a couple

years of like sort of understudied at Engelden State as an understudy before he became the guy. And that's the big difference. It just seems like they're doing what has been successful in other places because they're just following that model, which, sure, at the very least,

you're recognizing that model is successful. Unfortunately, it feels like this move just might lack the nuance that some of those other moves had. In particular, Myers actually learning just the infrastructure basketball organizations before he goes about that. On the other hand,

if I'm playing devil's advocate for my devil's advocate, yet again, the Knicks have so many advantages. They have all the money in the world. They have MSG. They have New York. They have just the history. And I bet guys, even at young ages, like young Jewel and B, want to go play on that stage and revive the Nix franchise.

I still think that's a thing. LeBron. You know who talks about that, that kind of thing? Mm-hmm. Guys like us. Well, okay. So, LeBron, despite- You know who cares about that kind of shit?

Guys like us. And I, you know. Cool guys is what you're saying? Important guys? Bill has been saying for 10 years on his podcast. if this person wants to cement their legacy as one of the greats, the thing that they should do is save basketball in the garden. And every single guy has been like no thanks.

So that should either tell you two things. One, a lot of guys don't remember John Starks and Kenny Skywalker and Pat Ewing. And if they do, they don't care. And two, it must be so bad there that it's not worth it. And so not to reset expectations, but you can go on first take and say, we got to be a destination for free agents. This has to be where we have to get in the honest sweepstakes.

But ultimately, like, we're running out of runway where people still care about this thing. You know, like, Knicks fans care about it, and Knicks fans are one of the great collection of fans in, like, pro sports. I swear to God, like, I love my Knicks friends. They love basketball in a way that's, like, I wish every fan base was like that.

Sure. But there's a point where you can't just keep saying like, because 30 years ago the garden was eaten or 50 years ago it was like that. It's not going to work anymore. Yeah. And if the nets are good next year, watch out. Okay, so that would be my counter though. Although I guess we said that about the clippers and look where we are.

Exactly. I do think like there's only so much history that you can ignore. And I wonder, even if Kyrie plays well, if Durant comes back healthy and that team works and they're just, they're at the top of the East next season, are the fans going to matriculate over to Brooklyn? Because they've had every opportunity to do so and they haven't really done. You got to keep in mind, New York is changing a lot too. Like the city has changed a lot over the last 15 years. And I think that there are a lot of transplants there. And I think that there are a lot of people there where there's like a pretty big.

disparity between haves and half-nots, like there isn't every American city. But there is not like this deep, I don't, I can't say demographically or like historically how long everybody who's living in New York now has been living there. But like it's changing. And so for better or for worse, I think you might have a lot of people open to the idea of getting cool seats at Barclays and being seen there as they are at the garden. Though the Getty images of the garden are still like awesome. Like when you you look up celebs at the garden and the court side. It's still cool. Yeah.

I'm just saying like the cities change, man. They're not just fixed in amber. Speaking of historical things, can we talk about Zion before we go? Sure. Holy shit. He's pretty good. Holy shit. All right.

So Zion last night, as we were focused on Philly and wondering whether or not the crowd would boo and bead and all that stuff, Zion was having a bit of a heater, as they say in soccer. As I know, I'm a huge soccer fan. So he ended the night with 31 points, nine rebounds, five assists in 28 minutes. And they absolutely blew out the Trailblazers on their floor, 138 to 117. In particular, he even made his free throws, which has been like the one thing that has been a concern throughout this amazing run he's had. So I'm just going to throw a few stats just to kind of speak to just how fucking incredible he was and how great he's been. he's the only 19-year-old

in NBA history with 13, 9, and 5 other than Katie, LeBron, and Luca. So probably the three most important players of recent history or Luca soon to be. And the status from StatMews six teenagers have recorded

five consecutive 20-point games. They are LeBron James, Carmel Anthony, Kyrie Irving. Jonathan Bender. No, unfortunately not. Andrew Wiggins, close enough. Luca Donchich. Is that a Pacer's reference?

Yeah. Wow. And Zion, Zion is the only one who's needed 20 games to do so. I think it's fair to say that Zion is everything that we expect him to do.

Just stay healthy, bro. Here's my thing that I love about watching him right now. He brings the lane back into play. It's so exciting to watch him you expect him to go to the rim and you expect him to take contact and you expect him to use that

contact as like a disruptive force, even if he doesn't get a foul, for the rest of the, like the, for the rest of the floor, because so much of the lane now is basically a trampoline to get the ball back out to the arc. It is. It's like, you know, and I'm not, this is not even rocket slander. It's just like so many teams use the lane as a kind of like play action play. You know, like they're like in football where they're like, we're not really going to go to the rim. We're just like trying to get the defense to look away from the arc for a second. But with him, you can see the way the pelicans are orienting. I love the, like, just inside the top of the key stuff that he does,

where it's like he gets the ball from a drive or from they rotated into him. And you just see the defense, it's just like, oh, shit, is he going to jump into me again? And then that, they cave, but even if they do cave, he's just like, I think I might just dunk it on your mind. You know what I mean? How about that? And that's just like, we've just, it's like watching, it's like watching, I'm Iverson in Barkley's body.

Like, I don't even know what this is, but it's, it's so exciting because he just makes watching basketball like a little bit more of a three-dimensional technical experience than it has been a little bit this season. I think the most amazing thing is that he's really not doing anything super intricate yet. This literally only seems like he's hustling. Yes. And not even in a full lot of movement. Does he know Gentry's offense, really? Like, is Gentry, like, stand there?

A lot of times all he's doing is just running into guys. and they go flying as if he's like fucking Superman. Whiteside did not want anything to do with that last thing. And this is like the worst possible matchup you could have against Zion, which is a plotting center who just doesn't try. Right. Because Zion is not only incredible and athletic and smart and a very good pastor and very skilled and all this other good stuff,

but he tries so hard. Yes. And watching some of the highlights of this were just laughable because Zion was just like over, like jumping over him essentially in White's eyes just standing here, just complaining to the refs the whole. whole time. It's also like little things where it's like on offensive rebounds, you can kind of see,

you can kind of see Blazers looking over their shoulder like, is this guy coming over my shoulders? Right. Is this guy going to like basically vault off of me to dunk it? Like people don't, it's rare because I think so much of it, the league is shooting now. But there is a little like poster paranoia right now. I don't think people want to be at the receiving end of a Zion highlight reel right now. Right.

And you can tell that the pelicans know it because they are like they have homing beacons on him on the break. Like JJ bypassed up a couple of like pretty open laps to like contort his body to find Zion just in case he wanted to dunk Gary Trent Jr. Into like a complete oblivion. So it's it is it's great because between him and Luca and, you know, a couple other people in the league, it really is like it's nice. have a must-see TV team. This is what we were hoping for in the beginning of the year. Yeah, and it's not just us.

Last night, the quotes from some of his teammates were just as glowing. Yeah. And I think the theme of all of them seemed to be, they didn't even realize how many points he put up

because he just does things so effortlessly. It's so efficient. They're just like, they look up and all of a sudden he has 30 and four or whatever it was at the time, but he's just doing pretty routine moves. It's just he's so much better

at everyone else at them. Yeah. So I'm really excited to watch him. develop. You know, you can kind of see sometimes when he's making some passes. He made a really nice one to Nicolomelli on the move when he was at the top of the key. And I can't wait for him to develop more of that

when he's playing more point center because a lot of the draft guys who we all love and trust about this stuff were basically saying that that is his ultimate future. He's more of this some sort of like hybrid 0.5. Clark wrote about that for us last year. He hasn't even really tapped into

that. He's basically just jumping and catching over bigger guys and just like maneuvering around them. That's incredible. It's incredible. Interesting to watch. The Pelicans are now on a three-game winning streak. They're playing the Thunder on Thursday right before we go into the All-Star break. So that'll be an interesting one to watch.

Please, please give a sign LeBron in the first round. Oh my God. That'd be amazing. I just keep forgetting about that. I think that that would actually be one of the most anticipated sporting events in the last like five years if that happened. Yeah. I'm pleased that the Pelicans didn't do anything at the trade deadline. I think there's a lot of buds, especially as they went into it, as they were losing a couple games,

as they were readjusted into Zion when he came back from injury, that Drew Holiday might be on the block. Fortunately, they didn't trade Drew Holiday. And now in the past, they've done this, and it hasn't worked out for them. They've held on to all their guys. They pearl clutched Ryan Anderson, yada, yada, yada, and they just assumed that they would have a chance, and it didn't work out for them. To Marcus Cousins, they traded for him, didn't make the playoffs that year.

this time, it seems like everything is aligning for this to work out. Do you think that's, have you noticed or have you anecdotally heard about whether or not, like, the arena seems to be more full? Because that was one of the things we were sort of noting when he first came back and there was still a lot of empty seats there. Yeah, I think slowly but surely, I think people are starting to take note of it. I think the opportunity is definitely there for them because there's no saints. There's no LSU. There's only really two-lein baseball, which sounds crazy, but that was a draw that pulled people away from

from, you know, Smoothie King Center at the time, LSU baseball also big. I remember the running joke I have with some New Orleans is just like they used to get bumped off the front page by LSU gymnastics. Yeah. Oh, God. Or the sports page.

And like that seems like a jab, but that's literally true. You can go back and look it up. I think everything is aligning for them to make this push. And 538 even like has them as better odds over both the Grizzlies and the Blazers to make it, I think because by their 38, model incorporates players and individual talent.

And I think the Pelicans have the best roster there. So we will see if that works out for them. So we'll wrap it up there. First want to say one thing before we get out of here. Yeah, we just wanted to dedicate, obviously, this podcast to Kevin O'Connor, who lost his father this week. I'm sure many of you have read about Paul O'Connor. Over the months, Kevin has done such a beautiful and honest job documenting what he and his

family have been going through. And we will miss Paul. And we love Kevin. And I know that you guys are all sending him your best wishes. So rest in peace, Paul O'Connor. Yeah. All the love to Kevin and the family. We're definitely thinking about you. So until next week, we're going to sign out for Chris, for Isaac. I'm Justin. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.