The Ringer NBA Show - The State of the NBA With Bill Simmons and Haralabos Voulgaris (Ep. 145)

Episode Date: October 16, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Haralabos Voulgaris after a long hiatus from the podcasting world to discuss the biggest offseason moves (6:00), Oklahoma City's potential contender status (13:00), Kyrie's lacking defense (19:00), LeBron's exit strategy (27:00), the Warriors' unselfishness (36:00), the myth behind the Warriors' reinvention of basketball (44:00), and Ben Simmons's Rookie of the Year campaign (55:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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On the line. It's been a while. He disappeared. He was gone. He didn't totally disappear on Twitter, but he disappeared from the podcast Airways. I can't even remember the last time we did one. Haralabob Valgaris. How are you?

I'm good, Bill. How you doing? I think the last one we did was prior to game five of Golden State, Oklahoma City, Western Conference Finals. I think that was the last one we did. Oh, my God. So we're talking over a year? I think so, yeah.

Oh, well, over year, yeah. Do we want to talk about the story about why you disappeared from the airwaves for a year or were we just going to ignore it? I mean, there was no real, I don't think there was like a real, I just kind of, I would say we ignore it. I don't know. I didn't want to do any more podcast. Didn't really feel like I was up to doing any podcast. I had nothing to talk about. I'm not an interesting to say. Okay. I'm not sure that's changed now, but I guess we'll find out. Well, a lot's happened. I would say it was the most tumultuous summer in NBA history. The decision was probably more

tumultuous in 2010 just because, you know, it just LeBron switching teams entering the prime, all stuff. But for just sheer player movement, this is the craziest. What was the thing you were the most stunned by as you watched all this stuff happen? Chris Paul, I think going to Houston, I think it was probably the most surprising thing. I mean, Kyrie Irving was surprising. Actually, that's pretty. I mean, those two would be the most surprising, I suppose.

But yeah, the Chris Paul thing kind of threw me for a loop. I mean, I thought he would, I thought he would, I mean, he didn't seem happy. That's for sure. A team didn't seem like he was long for the Clippers. But I was just kind of shocked that Houston scooped him up. We were going to the same amount of Quipper games. And then I really didn't go that much the last couple years. You were still going.

You were sitting courtside for a lot of them. You kind of saw the seeds for the Chris Paul departure. pretty much most of last season, right? Yeah, they definitely didn't look like. I mean, some of it is just his competitive nature. I don't think the players hated him or anything like that. I just think there's different times where a change seems like a change is needed. And it definitely seemed like a change was needed there.

There's a lot of frustration on that team. That's a tough, that was a tough team to play for, I think. Just a tough squad. There was a lot of different, I mean, you had the DeAndre Jordan, thing, right, where he was supposed to go to Dallas and then changed his mind. And they kidnapped him and he changed his mind. Right. And then you just, you had the weird playoff collapses. I mean, the Oklahoma City collapse that they had. I don't remember that game where he basically they were up. That to me was like the most, I don't know if they ever got over that to be perfectly

frank. Between the combo. I never got over that. Yeah, the combo of that and then the Houston collapse the next year, I think. Yeah, the Houston collapse. I forgot about the Houston. Well, Houston collapse is different because it was over like an entire quarter. Yeah. The Clipper, the Oklahoma City collapse is like 20 seconds. It was like the craziest. I mean, I don't know what the odds were for them to lose that game, but they had to have been obscene.

Yeah. Given that score and situation. I wrote about him during the Utah series last April about whether him as this A-list basketball or place leave, if that era was over. And, you know, especially as he gets older and older, I didn't feel like he barely made through that series. He was running on fumes by game six, six. And, you know, the history of point guards

and how the aging process for them, all that stuff. He's going to Houston. Maybe this is the right time of his career to do that and be like kind of the number two guy to James Harden. Do you think he'll be willing to accept that? Yeah, I think so. I do too. I mean, the cool thing is, is that he can be the number two guy

by the way, I don't sure he has a ton of value as a number two guys, a spot-up shooter in that offense. Where he has a ton of value is they will always have one of those two guys on the court. And that will be, that will be, I mean, Chris Paul feasting on backups or hardened feasting on backups will be unfair. Yeah, I'm trying to think. What's been the, trying to think of other basketball situations that have been like that. I guess that when Miami that first year had LeBron and Wade, when Wade was really, really,

still at his peak and one of those guys was always out there. That was similar. I mean, yeah. I mean, I mean, you could make a few, I don't know that there's ever been two primary ball handlers like that. I mean, Wade was kind of a ball handler. LeBron obviously was their de facto point guard. But having two guys who have been so ball dominant over the course of their career,

share of the court is going to be interesting. And then, yeah, having them being able to stagger them. I mean, Houston will figure it out. They're a smart team. I'm sure they'll figure out. Or at least they'll try a bunch of different shit until they figure something out. I mean, they're willing to try different things, that's for sure.

It'll be interesting. I'm just not 100%. I've never been one of those. Hey, there's only one ball guy because I think we've been burned by that logic too many times. But it really is going to be interesting to watch Chris Paul in a situation where he's not the guy and where he's not making all the decisions.

Like even when he would defer to Blake on the Clippers when Blake was at his peak. It was always happening because Chris Paul was okay with it happening. He ultimately was the decider of where the ball went, what happened, who was okay to have it. And now James Hardin has been basically in the same situation for three years. That's the part I'm not saying it's not going to work. I just want to see how they resolve it, you know, and they're going to really have to have a partnership on a high level. I mean, you remember the first.

year with Wade and LeBron, it really took them that whole season and the finals lost for them to figure out what the partnership should be, you know? Yeah. I think the difference between these two players is both of them are just much better shooters from distance. Yeah. So there's a little bit more space. And then the other part that's kind of, I mean, people didn't really talk, I mean,

I haven't really talked or I don't really, people don't really talking about Hardens collapsed last year and versus the spurs in that last game and the and the and the tail end of the previous game before they got eliminated. I think he will benefit. I mean, look, he played the almost the entire regular season, had the ball play a ton of minutes, was was trying to win an MVP or whatever. I think he'll benefit from, you know, a lesser, a less of a load. And I think Paul can help him there for sure. And I think both of them suffered from the same issue, which was the predictability, the last five minutes, right? You always kind of knew what was going to happened in the last five minutes of a Cooper game.

And it was the same thing with the Rockets game. You kind of knew what they were going to do. And maybe now they'll be able to not be as predictable. Yeah, I am interested to see how that plays out because I do feel like Houston's offense, the structure of their offense, when the game bogs down, it isn't that. I mean, you know what they're going to do. They know what they're going to do, question of whether they can ask you. But when you take away their fast break stuff or their early offense stuff, they are a

lot easier to defend. That's true with most teams, obviously. But I guess my question is, will they be able to sustain more of a transition game for the entire 48 minutes because the load will be distributed more evenly? Maybe that's possible. Chris Paul's never really been a transition point guard either. He's been a kind of a pounding point guard, dribbling the ball. And it'll be interesting. The shot charts will be interesting to look at too, because here you have a guy who is pretty efficient, deadly efficient in the mid-range. And Houston's kind of abandon those shots. You know, they've got the Mori ball.

So it'll be interesting to see how they function with being able to use that extra little bit of real estate on the court where, you know, the three, the long two is no longer a dead, you know, terrible shot that they just avoid. They had a lot of turnovers last year by avoiding ticking those shots. I mean, you could say that their points per shot was a lot better and they're definitely a more efficient offense. But they all, there was also a turnover tradeoff by just basically playing hot potato anytime you had the ball in that area and refusing to shoot it.

So it would be cool. It would be really interesting. My guess would be Darrell and his whole crew has studied this over the summer because we all knew that this was maybe an issue and teams hadn't really gone full out to exploit it. And then the spurs, they put such a big spotlight on it. I don't know how you come out of that playoff series and don't try to tweak the system a little bit.

I'd be shocked if they didn't account for it a tiny bit, right? Yeah. I mean, he'll let him take long twos, I'm pretty sure. I mean, I know they will. They've said they will, and he's good at it. His long twos aren't terrible. It's not like, you know, Blake taking a long two. He's got that move, the right side of the free throw line.

Yep. Watch it 10,000 times. All right, so you may or may not have a model that examines some of these things. What is your model? Does it offer any clues for what Chris Paul and James Hardin would look like together other than the obvious of what both of them are on the course? one of them is on the court at all times? Yeah, I mean, the interaction effects are pretty tough to model between.

I mean, you can definitely plug in, you know, do some sort of model that accounts for just the player's value, but there is a diminishing return when you have two ball dominant players and there's only one. So that is the one thing that is a counter argument to the, well, I don't really believe in that there's only one ball thing. There are diminishing returns because there is only one ball. I don't know. I haven't actually, I haven't actually ran anything for this year to see how we're, I'm just mostly just relaxing and waiting for the season to start.

I don't really really get too too early on doing anything until the season actually starts. But I have a feeling that we will think that they are going to be a very good team. They might be the second best team in the Western Conference with maybe like another dark horse candidate. Who do you have as a dark course candidate? I like to keep that stuff to myself sometimes. Oh my God. Jesus. I had Oklahoma City as a real dark horse candidate before they signed Mello.

That it's not as dark anymore at that point. Well, I mean, I'm not even sure that they will be as good as they would have been. I'm not sure that Mello moves a needle for them too much. I mean, he might, but I definitely don't see it as like a slam dunk positive for them. I think there's, you know, people talk about, oh, maybe we'll get like Olympic Mello, Siba Mello, whatever. Yeah, maybe we will. Maybe we'll get a hoodie

Mellon who just lost to pound the ball for 18 seconds with no concept of the shot clock and refuses to play the four. I mean, this could go a lot of different ways. It's not like Wessel Westbrook has a history of really like, you know, making guys play to their best ability, right?

Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. I mean, I don't know. I think they're going to be a fascinating team to watch. I can't wait to watch him. And I think, I think Robertson is going to set the record

for most feet. defenses have constantly laid off somebody over the course of a season. It's got, nobody's going to come within five feet from, from him when he's in the corner. Why would you? Take it, please. I wonder, I wonder, I wonder if he actually makes more open shots or draws more or charges, gets more charges because he's trying to barrel into the lane, refusing to take a long shot. It'll be interesting. I don't know.

I don't know. I think my guess would be that it trends toward he eventually becomes unplayable because you saw it in the playoffs last year. He lost his confidence to the point that you almost couldn't have him out there, but they didn't really have a choice. At some point, they're going to have a better choice. I think, I think that he's, he, he, he's playable off the ball. He can definitely offensive rebound because people are, like, people are abandoning him on offense. So it allows him to roam for rebounds, allows him to roam for cuts. And he is a positive player overall because of his defense.

Now, can you really afford to, it's a lot easier to defend a team with him with someone like him. on the court when there's also like someone like oladipo and yeah subonis and all these other guys who couldn't really shoot either couldn't really stretch you know spread the floor now i think they've got a much much more balanced offensive attack and so maybe teams won't really be able to avoid you know back off on him and and make up for it too much we'll see i'm not sure where do you think where do you stand on paul george i mean i was the originator of the paul george i know i remember you you you formed the fan club, you built the bane wagon, the whole thing, but I did all that stuff. What about the last couple years? Is it affected it?

I mean, this guy went through a pretty, people like, oh, he's so inconsistent. Oh, yeah, I mean, he broke. What did he do? His leg almost got torn entirely from his body. Yeah. It took him a while to recover from that. I guess that's reasonable. He had a great playoff series, and he played for a team that was pretty much garbage without him. So, I don't know. I mean, he's another interest. one because I don't think you can really have a ton of success if he's your best player. I think, I think not now anyways, the way the game has changed a little bit. Yeah.

But he is a very, very good player. He has been historically an extremely underrated defender. And he had those battles with people forget the battles they had with the heat. Yeah. He had those battles with LeBron. I mean, he's a big time player. I just think that injury is really tough to, that's a tough injury. overcome. I mean, that was gruesome.

It's been funny reading over the summer, like, you know, and because basketball is a 12 month a year, every day you have to write about stuff and have takes and all this stuff. So people keep floating back. Paul George and Kyrie were to the catalyst for it of,

well, Kyrie's not a superstar. He's not. You're not winning a title if he's your best player. And my counter argument was, well, yeah, that's everybody in the league basically, except for three guys. It's like there's two levels of superstars. There's the LeBron level of if he's on your team, you're winning 50 games.

And then there's the next level. What are we calling the top level if they're not superstars, right? I mean, they're... Well, I think there's super duper stars and they're superstars. Like, Anthony Davis is a superstar, but he's 39 wins on a mediocre team, right? And we've had a million guys like this. I think the key is you want that group of guys that have proved... proven or have yet to prove, but you know it's coming that in a big playoff series,

when everybody's got their two or three dudes, you need two or three dudes and who can be those dudes. And Kyrie is one of those dudes. Paul George is one of those dudes. And he goes on down the line. But I don't think that doesn't mean Paul George isn't a quote unquote superstar, but he's clearly not. Like he had his own team in Indiana and they could barely make the playoffs. So I don't know what the word is. Whatever the word is. Yeah. Yeah. Kyrie was polarizing. Where'd you stand on Kyrie? I was, I mean, I was never a Kyrie Irving fan.

Oh, here we go. All right. I hate when we disagree. I mean, I never was. I'm not going to try and lie and pretend that was. I mean, he had a, he was, in the year they won the championship, he was easily their worst defensive player. They bum hunted him the entire game, posting him up, you know, trying to get switches,

his favorable switches and he was he was he was bad on defense he was really bad on defense that being said uh he did play very good on offense and moments he there's a certain ability that i think i and other people like me although i don't other people like me kind of underestimate and that's the ability to you know people are the ability to create your own shot that's always been like oh that's ridiculous that who can everyone can create their own shot but there is uh he definitely has that ability when the game is in the half in the playoffs and fourth quarter and someone to go one on one. He definitely has the ability to get a decent shot off.

He's a good offensive player, but he's a great score. He's a very big score. He's supremely gifted, but he's never, ever been someone who has been like a total positive to his team in terms of like just a actual like any type of analytical method of like whether you want to use something like just a plus minus or SPM or any of these other methods that people are using they show that when Kyrie is on the floor

and LeBron is not the team is worse with Kyrie on the floor than they are with them on. That is something that the math that those models are using has stated. Now that doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability to be great

at times. Doesn't mean maybe he wasn't playing his best. It just tells you that when LeBron was off the court and Kyrie was in court, Cleveland was not necessarily better with Kyrie versus off. Can I give you the counter argument to that? By the way, I'm not in the bag for Kyrie because even well before I even knew the Celtics had a chance to trade for him. Like I just couldn't believe everybody didn't want to trade for him. I think LeBron has such a hold over his teams because he's so great, first of all.

And then second, because of just the way he plays. And it's just like, this is LeBron's team. you all have to figure it, you have to figure out how to fit into everything he does and you have to become his chest pieces that he gets to move around the board. And when he just sits down,

I think it's really hard to adjust for that. And we've never really seen at any point of his career a team really be able to figure out what to do when he wasn't on the court because I think he's not dominating. It's not like a thing like Kobe in the mid-2000s where it's like Kobe just shoot.

every time and that's you guys just staying there um lebron just did everything and i think it's hard to figure out what to do as a five-man basketball team when he's not out there is that fair or you think i'm crazy no that's a fair point there's also just this aspect of i mean watching so i went to the finals the year they won saw the last game whatever watching kairi when he you know when they won if you go back and watch the video he wasn't looking for anyone he was looking for lebron and it was it wasn't like a teammate, it was like a little brother looking up to his big brother or even like a son looking up to his father. So there definitely is that level also where I think it was difficult for him to play just on LeBron's team and never really feel fully accepted at all times. Maybe by LeBron, I don't know. I mean, anyone who decides he wants to leave in that situation, you can argue that maybe he knew the writing was on the wall and LeBron's eventually anyway, so I might as well leave now.

Or maybe he wanted to be the star on his own team. I don't really know. I don't really care. but I do think you have a valid point. I also think that I don't think it was like a great deal for either team. I don't think like Cleveland really came out with a great team. I mean, Boston had to give up Crowder, which I think may prove to be difficult. I'm not really sold on Kyrie being like this guy

who's going to lead a Brad Stevens offense, but I could be wrong. I 100% could be wrong. I mean, who knows, in the right environment, you know, how people will react. All right, but we already saw with Isaiah last year in the year before, but especially last year, the way Stevens was able to use him and take advantage of the skills he had, right? I would argue Cleveland never thought about Kyrie that way other than this guy who plays off LeBron. And when LeBron's not in the game, okay, now you get to do stuff.

But it's not like they ever designed a whole. It's not like Tyloo was practicing. Wasn't like he was, hey, today we're going to work on developing our games and Kyrie's in there. Like, hey, he wasn't doing that stuff. I think Stevens is going to be so much more creative about it. And now it's on Kyrie because if he doesn't go up a level in this Boston offense, then everybody's right. He was who he was and he was lucky to play with the broad. You know, he should at least put up numbers that are relatively similar to what Isaiah was doing per 13.

36 minutes, I think. I think he's just as talented. And Boston found the one player who was, I mean, or I should say, Kyrie found the one point guard where he could say like, oh yeah, I'm a better defender than that guy. Isaiah Thomas is like the one player in the league. He could say like, oh, yeah, I'm a better defender than that guy. I know it would be like, yeah, you're right.

You don't think he was crazy. He's right. Isaiah's probably the worst defensive point guard in the league, just not having him there and having another really bad defensive player is an upgrade for them. He's five inches taller, so that's good. We got that going for us. He's got that going for him.

Yeah, big time. He's better than Dame Lillard, too. I think if you went head to head with him versus Dame Lurred, I would take Kyrie defensively. I think that he has the thing about Kyrie that makes it interesting is like he shouldn't be as bad a defender as he is.

A lot of it just looks like antipathy or just like apathy. Yeah. Yeah, he'd have moments where he really went at Curry and tried to defend him. But Curry, I think, and Curry's defense is also maligned from time to time. But I don't know, he's kind of cagey. He's not the disaster that even maybe I thought it was compared.

Curry can be a little cagey sometimes on defense in a good way. Oh, Curry's a decent passing lanes. He'll do stuff. Yeah, yeah. Curry's not a bad defender. He's long. He anticipates well. Yeah. I mean, Kyrie's like he's wearing soft.

He never lifts his legs up. It's like the strangest thing ever. So I think with that Cleveland, trade as the weeks pass and we get little tidbits here and there. It's pretty clear that I don't know if Isaiah comes back until February. I mean, he might not even come back to all season for all we know. Who the hell knows? But it seems like getting that Brooklyn pick and being able to kind of wield a little

leverage over LeBron about, hey, we can trade this pick for more help. If you agree, you're going to stay. you know yeah i'm not sure lebrons ever no he he won't ever yeah i'm not sure he's ever you can ever wield leverage over him i mean he is unless he's like 45 years old and barely able to play

and even then he'll still be a huge attraction and a ticket draw i don't know that anyone's holding any leverage over that's the same thing about the NBA it's just it's not just i mean these owners have a lot of you know they're they're billionaires and they own the team but the players control the star

players, the super duper stars that you talked about earlier are the ones who really control the league. I agree with that. I mean from a leverage standpoint, since he got there, he's been like, you're doing this, you're doing that, you're paying money for this guy, you're going to spend money there, you're trading your first round picks. Like, they basically gutted the team and spent an insane amount of money to make them happy. And this is the-

championship, which- And they won a championship, so it worked. But now they're in a point where he might leave. and everybody in the league seems to think he's going to leave. And I think Kyrie Irving thought he was going to leave. And the consensus seems to be he's going to leave. But he hasn't really come in and said that. And you think he's going to leave and I think he's going to leave.

But he hasn't come out and said he yet. And they at least have this chip now right around January, February, where they can go, we're not going to trade this pick because we think you might leave. And it's not, I leverage maybe is the wrong word, but at least it's something that if he leaves, It's not like the last time where they're just completely screwed over and they have nothing. Sure. Well, I mean, if they decide to trade the pick for some player and then LeBron still leaves,

because LeBron's never going to sign a contract middle of the season, and so he's not going to be like, okay, yeah, I make the trade. I'm going to resign right now. I don't think that's ever happening. I think he's going to wait until the very end. Which is why they're going to keep the pick. Sure. But then them keeping the pick, I think just basically just gives them a chance to rebuild in some ways.

Who knows this Brooklyn pick may not. even be that. I mean, the lottery balls could go any one of a number of ways. It could be like a four or five. It doesn't have to guarantee to be a top top two or three pick. Yeah, and we're not even sure Brooklyn's one of the five worst teams. I think that was one of the reasons Boston did that trade, especially like you see, I hate preseason and I get frustrated with the millennials that they really, really value Summer League in preseason now for some reason. I just don't understand how we ever crossed that invisible line where preseason mattered. but the Russell stuff's been really encouraging.

I think the one thing you can learn from preseason is like who's an awesome shape this year, whose team is really gearing their offense around a certain guy, like little signs. I think Russell, who I always felt like was talented, he was clearly in a disaster of a situation from the moment he got to the Wakers, but he is talented. And I don't know, maybe Brooklyn can get out of that top five. We'll see. Yeah, they're going to be horrible. I mean, he's talented, but he's also very young.

They're going to be horrible. You think they'd be worse than the Bulls? They should be worse than the Bulls. The one thing that the Bulls have going for them is the Bulls are incentivized to lose and Brooklyn isn't. There's seven teams like that. There's seven teams that there's four in the East and I'm including the Knicks. And then there's at least two in the West. We don't know which two, but just law of averages.

Phoenix almost definitely. And then one other one. but the West is not going to have all good teams. It's impossible. Like they have, maybe a team like Dallas who, if they started out early and somebody got hurt, and then all of a sudden they're 8 and 22,

you know, they would, I think, audible pretty quickly if they had to. But, yeah, they're definitely in a rebuilding. It seems like,

there just isn't, I mean, there's just so many teams in the East that are just terrible levels and that are just like absolutely. Yeah. You mentioned the Knicks. You got the hawks are going to be terrible. The bulls are going to be terrible.

The magic are going to be terrible. The Pacers are going to be terrible. The Pissons are probably going to be bad, but they're not going to try to be bad. Except one of those teams by default will actually end up being mediocre just because there's so many other terrible teams. Yeah, and they're going to be playing a bunch of other terrible teams. It's going to be good for gambling, I think, this year. I think we'll know around February who's going to be making. It's almost like people have to announce it.

All right. We're making our run. Last year, tanking. They're in our hats in the ring. Here we go. It'll be interesting to see how the commissioners requests for actual injuries versus rest. I wonder how many teams will just start making up injuries versus just D&P rest. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

How does the rest fit into your model for when you're trying to, shall we say, anticipate the goings-on of the league from week to week? It's a variable. I don't really know, to be honest. you can definitely it definitely recognize i mean there's lots of different models that are separate that just focus exclusively on rest that'll identify like high you know high probability for injury games or you know i think some some someone i can't remember which maybe was espn really some some article about how these teams are never going to win these games because of tom hebristrar i think was talking about it yeah schedule losses so the model identify i mean any any good model or any model

where if it's salt will definitely identify those situations. The cool thing about the NBA is there's always been a change. So there's always some level of subjectivity as well that you want to incorporate. You can kind of tell when teams have hit a wall. You can just from watching the games, you can kind of tell. Yeah. And by the stink eyeing each other, stink eye and the coach, there's, yeah, there's a bunch of little sets. Yeah, or just like sometimes they just give up at the end of the game.

The coach isn't even trying to foul when they're down five. they're not tanking. They're just, the coach just realizes this team doesn't have it. There's no point. So that stuff is interesting. I think they'll always be, you know,

uses for models, but I think they'll always be also always be uses for people who are just tuned in and watch as much as possible and really, really try to watch and consume as much basketball as they can, you know, with their eyes. How are you feeling about the Lakers?

I actually went over, we did an over under WINS podcast with them with House and Kevin O'Connor and Jason Conner and Jason Goodsepteone. And I actually went over for the Lakers, which people thought I was, trying to reverse jinx them. I think they have a lot of talent, and I think they're going to be good at home.

What was the number? I think it was 33. It seems high. Yeah, it seems a little high. I don't know. I just liked it. I think they're going to be good at home. I think the crowd is so desperate to have a fun Laker team again,

and they're actually going to have one this year. It'll be a fun team to watch, and I'm a huge. I love Wanzo Ball. I think he's the best player in the draft. Yeah, you loved him. You were saying that during draft. halftime. You couldn't understand why he wouldn't go first. Yeah, I think he's a very special player. I think that he reminds me. There's no real basketball corollary for me. I don't really,

I can't remember. I mean, Nash maybe in terms of just getting his teammates going. But he reminds me like of someone like Gretzky, where he just always seems like he's ahead of the play and he knows what's happening ahead of time and he's anticipating stuff. And he's one move ahead. And I think There isn't really a way to measure basketball IQ. There isn't like a test for that. But if there was, I feel as though he would be off the charts in that sense. Well, the cool thing about what you just said is that's why stats are never going to be able to tell everything in basketball. And that's why the perfect blend of it is a little like what you do.

You have all the models, but you also go to the games and you study behavior and you rely on the eye test a little bit. And I'm with you. I think like, you know, the Celtics traded down from one to three. They got this extra pick that's going to be great. And I think it was the right trade. I felt that way at the time. The guy that as the summer passed, the guy who I got scared of more about them passing wasn't false. It was Lonzo.

Just because his ceiling is so much higher for what you said, he might be Gretzky. I don't know. I mean, it's really rare. And you know it when you see it, the guys who they're. such good passers and playmakers that they eventually everyone they're playing with starts kind of emulating it and it just doesn't happen like lebron's a great passer but he's not a great passer it's not like when people play with him every day they don't start seeing crazy passing angles and stuff like that the list of guys is just short i think you do see i think you do see that with

lebron i mean there's definitely videos of him like passing the ball where it loops out of bounds and spins in bounds on the baseline and the players just like hits the player in the hands and he's like what i think lebron is a great pass i mean maybe when i said gherky i mean i don't compare him to lebron because lebron just does so many other things but lebron is definitely a great probably the best passer in the league i would say yeah he's a great passer but he's not bird and magic level passer you know what i mean oh yes he's not no he's not no all right i'm being the old guy now i don't know i mean i i i uh i don't know how you get a team with four players who can't do anything but shoot open three point shots and the opponent

knows this and you still manage to get them wide open three point shots. I just don't know how it's possible without being a great passer. I mean, he's... I said he was a great passer. I'm saying there's another level. It's almost like the super duper star superstar. Like magic and bird. I think Nash... Magic was a fancy passer. I'm not sure that and a great passer, but I don't... But there was something about the unselfishness of how they did stuff that got everybody playing that way. And I've never 100% seen that from a LeBron team where like LeBron. Yeah, I mean, there's now you're comparing like being an unselfish player versus being a great

passer. But that's all part of the same thing though. It's like I have the ball. The ball's moving. I'm finding the open guy. That guy's open. I'm getting it to him. And you're just doing it over and over and over again. And eventually like I always read about Kevin McHale with with Byrd. Kevin McHale is a black hole who somehow became kind of a relatively unselfish passer as his career would have long. Just because bird, he was playing with bird every day and he just, you, you, it's like osmosis. And that's what I see with Lonzo that I think could happen. Sure. Yeah. I'm, I think it's, I think that team in Kuzma is exciting.

Kuzma. He's really good. Uh, I don't really like a lot aside from those two guys, but I like those two guys a lot. Brandon, Ingram, no. I'm a huge. Eh, maybe. I don't know. I mean, I haven't seen. He's very young. He's very long. He's lean. He just. definitely has the prototype for someone who has a lot of potential to be great. But I'm not as super excited. I'm not super excited about him or Randall. I don't think those are like pieces that you are sure are going to be, you know,

guys you can build around for the future. I'm not convinced. I mean, he could be, but I'm not at that point now where I really believe that. I feel, I'm not even really that point with Coosma either, but I don't get, I don't get super excited about Brandon Ingram and even Julius Randall to, Although Julius Randall, when he decides to develop like an offhand, I feel could be scary in some ways. I'm not giving up by Julius. For the same Paul George Broken Leg thing you talked about before, they had a really bad injury, you know, and that takes two years.

And he's on a bad team last year. That's possible. I feel like for me, I try to have like a better idea of how I think a player thinks about basketball, how he plays. and, you know, is he selfish? Is he not selfish? Right. I've never, I'm not saying that Julius Randall is selfish. I don't know him, but he, when I watch him play, I don't think, oh, there's a guy who cares

about winning. But I could be wrong. I don't, I just don't, I don't get that from him when I watch him play. He might have missed his era. He might have been better off in like 1993. Yeah, when I watch him play, he seems like a guy who wants the score, not necessarily make the right basketball play. Yeah.

And there's no shortage of players like that in the NBA. That's for sure. Some of them are valuable and some of them aren't. I'm just not really sure where he's at. Some of these guys are also really young. Who knows how they'll change over the years. We never talked, at least on a podcast since last year's finals, when the Warriors, like what you're talking about about the unselfishness

and just trying to do for the greater good of the team versus like going for your own shot, stuff like that. The Warriors were like the embodiment of that in the playoffs. What was it like for you as a basketball fan watching that team? Boring. Really? Okay. Boring. I mean, it's just not fair.

I'm probably biased because I've never, ever been a huge Kevin Durant fan to begin with. I always respected his game, but I always kind of thought. So what are the reasons? That I was another Kevin Durant fan? Yeah. I don't know. I think like, it's probably because when I was in L.A. sometimes, someone told me like, yo, Kevin Durant really wants to meet Dan Gillesering.

Do you anyone who didn't introduce it? And I was like, why don't fuck with Kevin Durant? who's like a world famous person. He's so interested. And so maybe that just kind of, and I'm not going to have a problem with Dan Belerian. It's just something I was like, wow,

this guy's like one of the greatest basketball players of all time. Yeah. Why the fuck does he care about meeting another celebrity on who's a celebrity? It didn't make sense to me. So maybe that colored me in some way. I don't know. But just that, like that,

like real anxious to meet someone where he was really, really, really, really wanted to meet and hang out with. I just felt like, dude, wouldn't you be in the gym or something? I don't know. It seems interesting to me. That, and then just the fact that he left.

I don't know. I don't see it as like teaming up with the enemy. I don't see it. I just feel like it just seemed as though it was a cop-out. Like you have a right to play wherever you want to play. And if you weren't happy where you're happy, that's cool. But I don't know, going to play with the team that just beat you in seven games. And I don't know.

And then like that team already is a huge front-running team where, you know, they reinvented basketball through Silicon Valley techniques. with all that other bullshit they talk about. It just became hard. It just became hard to like that team. I don't know what else to say. I know some of the people on the team. I've met with the general manager is a nice guy.

The assistant general manager also a really nice guy. The owner when I met him seemed like a nice guy. I don't know. They all seem like, but just you didn't invent, you didn't reinvent basketball. You didn't come up with some new techniques that you learned in venture capital world of Silicon Valley, by the way, the dirty secret between what venture capital is and Silicon Valley

is just, let's just take a bunch of fucking money and throw it out the wall and see what sticks. It's not like they're, not like they're incubating these great, you know, they're not Ehrlich on Silicon Valley and incubating these people and really like nurturing them. They're just using a shotgun approach. And they're using their leverage and connections to, by and large, take advantage of some of these really, really talented programmers. I've never really thought that Silicon Valley was a bastion for genius in the venture capital world. they're just capitalist who took advantage of a situation.

So, I don't know, we, I'm a little bit of a segue. But it's hard for me. So when I was watching the games, it was hard to separate from the fact that this team was good enough to win the previous year. And they didn't, and they didn't need to add this great player to their team to win the next year. Now, not just win, but to completely obliterate the competition.

The league is ruined. I'm rooting for some other team to join up and take all the other players and beat this team, because I just think having one great team, like this in the way that they, not in the way they built their team, but in the way that they crowed about how great their team was and then added, and then went and added another superstar player just seemed a little bit offensive to me. It sounds like you're ready to hop on the Celtics bandwagon. That's how I took that whole monologue. It sounds like you need Brad Stevens in the Celtics to fight the good fight for you.

I feel like when I talk to my dog, the only word he hears his ball, no matter what I'm saying and I feel like when I talk to you, the only word you hear is Celtics. I was just trying to spin that turn the Celtics. Yeah, yeah, you were. I'm going to say this. I don't have a team that I'm on the bandwagon. I guess if I was going to be on the bandwagon with a team, it would be like maybe the Celtics, but I don't know.

I love Brad Stevens. He's my favorite coach. I think he's awesome. Oh, tell me, Lord. Yeah. Yeah, I love that guy. I spend hours upon hours watching clips, making streamable clips to share with my friends. Oh, look at this one that they ran.

Look at this play that they ran. He never runs out. He's a fountain. He's a fountain of game winning plays. You know, I love him. But I'm not a huge fan of their team. And like, I like Gordon Hayward. I like Al Horford.

I just don't think, as they're presently comprised, that they present a challenge to Golden State. I think there's two or three other teams that are better than them that could conceivably beat Golden State. I think you're right. I think they're still one piece away. I think they're, they moved in a direction that they needed to move to,

which is if you're going to play Golden State. in a seven-game series, you're going to have to get to 120 points. And most of the decisions they made were based around that. They added three awesome offensive players. I'm including Tatum, who the hell knows. But on paper has a chance to be an awesome scoring forward. Hayward's already a very, very, very good offensive player. And Kyrie's on the short list of dudes who can in any playoff game put up 45.

But what you were saying about the Warriors, I agree and I disagree because, and I'm with you, they teut their horn too much. And the famous New York Times Magazine, Lake of interviews speaks for itself. I think they get credit for three things over everything else. They fired Mark Jackson and they knew they had a problem with Mark Jackson. They also hired Mark Jackson in the first place. But that was, I think that might have been the previous owner though. Or if it was the new owner, it was right in his first year. Yeah, every NBA owner, when they take over a team,

they don't know what the hell they're doing for three years. Like, look at Steve Ballmer, thought it was a good idea for Doc to be the coach and GM. Like now he probably wants to punch himself in the face when he realizes how dumb that is. But when you own a team, when you take it over, you just don't know. But they went and they got Steve Kerr, which was really smart. You know, and I think Steve Kerr was available.

He was out there, and they were the team that ended up getting him. they backed out of not backed out but they they decided not to do that clay thompson kevin love at one point it was like clay thompson draymond green and a pick like all these scenarios to get kevin love and the old way of basketball thinking would be like you're crazy go get kevin love i certainly felt that way but they they really believed that the game was shifting toward a different style of play see i read that i think they're better off you know you think that's bullshit no i think that's bullshit i think first of all it wasn't Silicon Valley, if you read like the accounts of what happened with the Kevin Love, whatever

trade that was aborted. It was Jerry West and like too. Jerry West was about their incubating Google and investing in in Instacard or whatever. This wasn't a Silicon Valley thing. I'm not saying it was Silicon Valley though. I'm saying as a franchise, they came to the decision that they were actually better off with the team they had. How many times have we seen teams not realize that, you know?

I think they get credit for that. And then the third thing is... I'm not trying to take away credit from them. I mean, look, they had the best season, the regular season history. I think a lot of, I think like there's credit. They deserve credit. And they also deserve a little bit of like, okay, what happened here? Well, we got, we hired a coach.

We didn't know this guy was going to be a great coach. Turned it to be a great coach. That worked out really well. I'm very lucky that Stefan Curry, A, fell into our laps during the draft. B, got injured, was injury prone his entire career that was willing to sign for a reduced amount of money that allowed him to. They also. had the CBA thing that happened in such a way that allowed them to now, you know, and allowed

them now to build their team in the way they did. That was a once in a lifetime thing that happened. They got lucky with the lottery, the Harrison Barnes lottery. Well, they tanked to get there. They tanked, but they still weren't guaranteed that they would be able to keep their pick and they lucked out. They did luck out. So they made a lot of great decisions. Look, I think the thing that a lot of people, and I've definitely been guilty of this, I'm nowhere near the level of success that, you know, some of these Silicon Valley guys are the, or the owner, you know, but I'm not a billion or I'm even close. But I think a lot of people confuse, you know, actual how much, how much role luck and just happenstance happens in life.

And if you're going to be that way and you're also going to be that way in sports, I mean, there's so much luck in sports that goes unruly accounted for. People confuse, I mean, look, they won the championship the first year. That was an amazing year. They got, you know, they got unlucky to lose the one the next year. They could have been three-time champs. Maybe they didn't get around if they win the next year. There's lots of things that could have happened. What they've done is amazing putting together that team. But I don't think that, you know, people are saying that they recognize the three-point shot ahead of their time. That's bullshit. I don't think they did that. I definitely don't think that. I think that what they did realize was that maybe Curry and Clay together was a

better asset than any other available option out there. You know what I mean? Did they, did they realize that Draymond Green was better than David Lee because that didn't happen until he got injured. Well, you talk about luck. Like, Raymond Green falling to them is insane in retrospect. Whether people thought he was ever going to lose the weight or not, like, it seems stupid when he went as late as he did. And I think even like the bulls passing on him was kind of incredible.

He's like the perfect Tibbs guy. I will say this. Bob Myers is a great general manager. I agree. She's a humble individual. You don't hear him talking. You don't hear him talking about how great he is. You don't hear about him talking about how great a team he put together, anything like this.

And I feel like he, if anything, is underrated as a general manager, as an executive. And then the adverse of that, the opposite of that is their ownership group is definitely overrated in terms of what they've done. I feel like the truth is somewhere in the middle. But no, you have the original question was, do I enjoy watching them play basketball? And the answer is, no, I don't. I don't enjoy going to, you know, I don't, I don't read the plot summary on a movie to find out how it's going to end and then decide to go watch it. And I feel like when I go watch their basketball games, I already know they're going to win. And I don't really think that they're really doing anything really special.

There's not an exciting about seeing them hit three-pointer after three-pointer. There is a certain level of it that is you can stand back and appreciate. But for me, I enjoy everything. I think everyone enjoys watching competitive basketball and watching, you know, the uncertainty of whether or not a team can be. them and I haven't ever felt I never felt at one point during last year that they were possibly going to lose a playoff series to someone and not win the chance to me it was a foregone conclusion at the beginning of the year when they signed him and it turned out to be a foregone one I think that and that for me is not exciting from some people it might be but for me

I don't enjoy that I felt the first three rounds they basically ruined it was just I've never been less interested to watch the one-sense in the first three rounds of the playoffs. I will say, I love the finals. What did you ever about? I really, I really, I just thought the, I've talked about this before on Pod, so I don't want to repeat it for the people,

but just the quick thumbnail sketches. I just thought the shot making and the playmaking and the offense was exceptional. And, you know, I went to three of the games, but just the level of offensive basketball was just about, the highest I'd seen since the heyday, like the 80s, which of course, didn't really, nobody really use the three-point line at that time.

But I was just amazed by it. That was the pinnacle of basketball offense as far as I'm concerned. I can appreciate that, but it doesn't make, I guess for me, I just wasn't excited to watch it. I feel like that'd be something I would be excited to watch highlight tapes of on YouTube, like years later or even after the game's over, but watching the entire game from start to finish. The one thing that was interesting with the finals is like, is Cleveland absolutely obliterate? It's like, Boston.

Yeah. So it kind of gave you this, this like hope that maybe they could compete, maybe they're going to be really good too. And then you watched game one in game two when you're like, nope, but the thing is they really should have won game three,

which we can say, you can go back to every finals and point to, I mean, we have an Orlando Magic fan in our office, Kevin Clark. And, you know, he genuinely feels like that series

should have gone seven against the Lakers. And he's probably right. There were two plays that if they flip, It's a seven-game series. Game three, Cleveland, J.R. hits the three, they win. If LeBron hits- Is true. Huh?

What you're describing is true, but I think if Cleveland wins game three, maybe they don't win game four. Maybe they don't win game four. Maybe they probably just rolls through them in game four, yeah. Or if Jemond doesn't get suspended the previous year, Golden State wins in five, and then Durant never goes there because he's not joining the champion. So you talk about Golden State luck.

in a weird way they were lucky that they didn't win in 16. Sure, they deferred. Yeah, they deferred one championship. They passed it out. They passed it out. For like five, for however many they're going to get until some team. I still,

I love watching excellence. And I really enjoyed watching, like when they figured out the Durant Curry, little high screen thing they were doing, when they just kind of subtly moved it to the corner a little bit, moved it to the right. shit like that. It's just it was like next level stuff that when you think about where basketball was 12 years ago and how those pacer's pissed and rock fights. You mean when they figured out how that they should run more pick and roll like every other team that's already figured out basketball. And they figured that out mid-the-year. Yeah. Well, but the way they moved it made it so that the spacing was perfect. I liked it. I enjoyed it. Yeah, great. They could have done anything and it would have been everything would have seen perfect.

Fair point. They could have been posting up KD 45 times a game taking the most inefficient shots in basketball and they probably still would have won wouldn't have made a difference. Well,

don't you feel like they have one more level though? I think they go up a level this year. I think they were just starting to figure it out last year. Sure, but it doesn't matter because the regular seasons are going to be a joke. The first three rounds of the playoffs are going to be a joke just like they were last year. And then they're going to play some crappy team in the East

that's also going to be a joke. So whether they have another level or not, I don't know that they'll ever be pushed enough to use it. I don't think that'll ever happen. What if Cleveland trades that Brooklyn pick for Boogie Cousins? No. Cleveland would have to trade the Brooklyn pick for Jesus Christ. And then I think they'd be able to make,

I think they'd be able to make it a six-game series maybe if they had him. I'm not sure. I don't know. There could be some players, maybe not Boogie, but maybe AD. I don't know, maybe in a healthy AD. I'm not sure. or maybe you could combine. The team can be beat with the current,

you know, current other teams in the league if they all decided to somehow build a super team, they can be beat. The question is, is there any team that's a few moves away? And the closest team to that is, I don't know, I don't even think there is a team that's close.

There isn't one team that's not multiple moves away from competing against them, not one team. If you were Indiana and you had Oladipo and Sabonis on the table for Paul George. Or just Kevin Love. Just flat out, here's Kevin Love. You can have them for Paul George.

Or even Boston, Avery Bradley, Jay Crowder, and two non-Lottery picks. I mean, what trade do you take? They got for Paul. The deal they got for Paul George was absurd. I mean, look, the guy was leaving anyway, so their leverage diminished as the days went by. But what they got was a joke.

And they've got two players who aren't even arguably above average basketball players. So I don't know how anyone could look at that trade. That's the guy who, by the way, completely crushed the offseason, is Sam Presti. I've never been a huge supporter of Sam Presti. I've never been like, oh, he's the best. I've never really had the opportunity to think that. But this guy crushed the offseason. I agree.

Added Patrick Patterson on a really good deal, got Paul George, got rid of the pile on on defense for Carmelow. He's made some great, he made some great trades. He did a great job. And then did that in response to Katie leaving the year before, which had, you know, he had to just been catching his breath after getting hit in the stomach for a year. Yeah. I got to say everything they did from the moment, yeah, from the moment Katie left, even,

even just kind of selling their souls for the Westbrook MVP can. campaign and being like, fine, do everything. We support you. We want you to win the MVP. Go for it, man. You're the only guy allowed to rebound mis-freythrows. No one's allowed to put it on the bulletin board. No one is allowed to rebound mis-rethreathrows.

Those are Russell's missed-rethrow rebounds. Right. We're telling our bigs, if you're going up for rebound, back off right now. But, I mean, it worked and he won the MVP, and then they made these trades that were, I think anybody would agree. They were just hijackings. and then Russell stayed. I mean, the cherry on the half-farch Sunday

is that all the stuff they did from the MVP campaign to the trades, to the Patterson signing, all the stuff, they convinced them to resign with them, which I think when Durant left seemed inconceivable. Sure. They looked like they were just going to be

the tumble weed of the NBA. Yeah, it was going to be 2011 Cleveland. Yeah, it was 2011 Cleveland multiplied by five. So, yeah, They can get Paul George to re-up for another contract instead of jetting off to the Lakers. That'll be interesting. That'll be really.

And then it'll be a, I mean, whether he stays or not is irrelevant. They've already done well. But now it'll just be even more impressive. They can somehow convince him to stay. It's going to be a fascinating year. I'm really excited at basketball back. And I'm excited, I think more than anything other than the Celtic stuff, I'm excited for the rookie class. It really seems like we might have hit the jackpot with this rookie class.

from different types of players and late first round guys, a couple second round guys. It just seems really deep. And guys that are fun to root for. Like, I really am excited to watch Darren Fox. I'm excited to watch Dennis Smith, you know. I think mock on the Hornets is going to be really fun. But just go down the line, this has a chance to be.

It was a really deep draft. I think people, I think, you know, thought it was going to be super deep. Then the talk was, ah, it's not that good after all. and I think history will prove that this is a really good draft. I remember doing some work going through some of the prospects and was kind of like blown away. Like, wait, this guy, he's good. Where is this guy projected to go?

Oh, five. Oh, interesting. He's quite good. So, yeah, there's going to be a, it'll be, I mean, the rookies for me are always kind of like, I've always go in with zero expectation, knowing that the best rookie is probably not going to be above average, regardless, but there might be some flashes.

And I think there's, there's definitely a chance for some of these rookies to have some flashes and have some... The good thing is they all seem to be on teams that are also kind of exciting to or in interesting situations that kind of adds to the mystique of it a little bit. Yeah, I'm a little worried. Falsa is the one that worries me

out of the top guys. Just situation combined with the way some of the last few months have played out and changes free throw shooting and I'll be interested to see how he does once the season starts. And then we have... We also have the Ben Simmons rookie, right?

He's a rookie too. Oh, he's... He's a lock for a rookie of the year, I think, unless Lonzo goes to another level right away. But it seems like Ben Simmons is going to have the ball almost all the time. Yeah. And unless he shoots like 32%, which isn't inconceivable. I'll take the other side of your lock for Ben Simmons to be a rookie of the year. You got me.

What is it? You can have, I don't know. You said he's a lock. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Lock is wrong. I shouldn't have said lock. I'll take the rest and you can.

I should say he's. No, I definitely don't want to do that. I love how you're thinking. But, no, I would say he's a lot to be the favorite. I think the, Tate, aren't the odds? He's the favorite, right? I think Dennis Smith is another one. Just if that team's bad, he just might be able to have the Tyreek Evans King season.

Sure. He seems like a good player. He seems like he might be the steal of the draft. You know, we're basing it on Summer League, but he definitely looked really good in Summer League, I will say. He does seem, it even felt in the moment. I wasn't a huge fan because of the Steve Francis. potential. But then when he fell to nine, it just seemed like, oh, man, I've seen this play before.

The guy falls a couple spots too low and he falls to the perfect team. And, you know, I think, I think Monk could potentially haunt some teams too. And then, you know, Kuzma's going to the Hall of Fame already. Definitely. It's the greatest, greatest three-point shooter in the history of basketball. But Lanzas can be fun. I think the fun thing for, for me just as a West Coast basketball fan is that we actually have a fun crew of West Coast teams this year. Even Phoenix is watchable. You know, I'll flip on Devin Booker and all those young dudes, you know.

You'll watch for the 73 point Earl Watson. Let me get Devin Booker as many points as possible type games. He gives up 78 on the other end. Yeah, I think that stuff's exciting. He got that. The Sacramento team is this bizarre blend of older borderline washed up guys and then young guys who haven't arrived yet and they're just kind of all thrown together.

They did sign a couple good mentors like Zach Randolph to really guide those young players in the right direction. So after what things you can move on to after your sports career is over, you've got some different business opportunities. I feel like a guy like that can really mentor some of these young guys.

Yeah, let's leave that hanging in the air. And then the two LA teams and Golden State, I mean, it's Portland will be fun. Yeah, let's end on the Quippers because we got to go. The Quippers are like a fantasy team. It's like they just sign me up for Milos and Danilo Galanari and whoever else they can add to that team because I'm a Clipper. I'm going to be a Clipper fan next year, I think.

I'm going to enjoy watching that team play. I'm excited to go to Quipper games again and not hate the product that I'm watching and not hate how miserable everybody is and how it's the same groundhog day offense over and over again. Now it's going to be unpredictable now. I'm excited. Yeah, it's going to be, I mean, I love that type of what you described to me. Just sounded like having people miserable all the time, you know, complaining that to me is, that's my sweet spot right there. But yeah, they're going to be a fun team to watch for sure.

Did you see some of the underhand passes this guy was following? Oh, my God. It's ridiculous. I don't care how bad that guy is on defense. Yeah. He is going to be a plus player in the NBA, I think. My guards up only because of the history of these guys. coming in late, these legends, these point guards, oh, wait, do you see this guy? And it never really

seems to happen. But his passing really does seem special. Yeah, his passing is ridiculous. And there you have a pretty unselfish team. If you look at, if you look at, if you look at the other guys around him, they've added, you know, Blake's never really been a selfish player. DeAndre just doesn't do anything, but his role, Danilo has always been an unselfish player. And they just need to add one more. You know, Beverly got an unselfish player. I just need to add one more. You know, Beverly got an unselfish. But I just need to add, you know, one more guy off the bench, I think, and they can be a little bit more, have a little bit.

I think they're a playoff team. I heard that Doc might work 28 hours a week this year. So that's a bonus. I mean, he might. That is a bonus. He's going to put in more time. That'll be fun. He might not play 36 anymore during the season.

We'll see. I definitely see. All right. So we can follow you on at Heralabob on Twitter. And you're not going to be a stranger. No, definitely not. Thanks for on me on, Bill. I appreciate it.

I had a good time. A pleasure as always. Talk to you soon.