The Ringer NBA Show - The Suns Blow Out the Nuggets in Game 2. Plus: Small Markets and Young Stars Rule the 2021 Playoffs. | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 10, 2021

Justin, Rob, and Wos talk about the Suns blowing the Nuggets out in Game 2 of the Western Conference semifinals Wednesday night (0:55). Then, with most big market teams and LeBron James and Steph Curry eliminated from the playoffs, they talk about how the NBA treats young stars and smaller markets (21:41), give their postseason awards (44:02), and look ahead to Thursday night’s games (51:28). Finally, Jordan Ritter Conn joins Justin to talk about his new podcast 'What If? The Len Bias Story' on the 'Book of Basketball 2.0' feed (58:52). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Guest: Jordan Ritter Conn Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What if the Len Bias story hosted by Jordan Ritter-Kahn is the Ringer's latest narrative podcast. You can find new episodes every Wednesday on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. Here's a quick trailer. You've heard his name, Lynn Bias, 1980s phenom, second pick in the NBA draft. And then, cocaine, tragedy, one of the most shocking deaths in sports history. 35 years later, Bias' legacy is still making an impact. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, this is What If, the Lynn Bias story. I'm Jordan Ritter-Con.

Group chat, I am Justin Barrier, and the sound you hear are a million sports journalists typing up their Chris Paul is back profile. You might see some on The Ringer. You might see some right now, actually. Joining me tonight for this 9 p.m. Pacific edition of Group Chat, Rob Mahoney. Are we all Valley Boys now? I hope so. Big Waz, are you a valley boy? Well, I actually live in the valley.

So that's the thing. So because I live in the San Fernando Valley by de facto, I'm Valley Boy. So I'm getting a valley of the sun, Jersey. I'm rocking it on the next. But is this the group chat or the mismatch? On the next group chat podcast. All right. You're officially off both podcasts.

All right, we got a lot to get to you today. Only one game tonight, unlike last week when I feel like I was watching 20 simultaneously. We got to key in on this one. Unfortunately, the sun's just absolutely blew the nuggets out here. Later in this episode, I should mention right off the top, we have a quick interview with Jordan Khan. I talked to him a little bit about his new podcast. What if the Lenn-Bias story? So you'll hear that at the end of this episode.

We'll also get into some playoff MVPs and some other stuff. Look ahead to Thursday's games and whatnot. But I do want to start right with Chris Paul because, my God, he looks incredible. You know, I think a lot has been made of how Paul kind of manages games until the fourth quarter. I feel like this playoffs, he's doing it better than ever to the point where it's like he's Kaiser Sose and you think the game is one thing for three quarters. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh my God. He completely blew up in this one, 17 points, 15 assists, zero turnovers. Rob, as a Chris Paul aficionado.

Yes. Is this among the best, let's say playoff basketball you've seen Chris play in his entire career? you know, contrary to his reputation, that's actually a pretty freaking high bar. Like, playoff Chris Paul is usually a hell of a player. And this is definitely a different version of Chris Paul. This is still older, injured, as you said, game managing Chris Paul versus completely dominant blow by you, Chris Paul. So he isn't a different class in that way. But within the confines of what he is given, within the confines of a 36-year-old point guard,

I mean, he's throwing a near perfect series right now. It's important for people to remember playoff Chris Paul back when he was himself. You know, he still had at least some of the quicks before the major knee injury that he had. Where this guy was a fourth quarter closer, score, looking for his bucket in the biggest moments of the game for the clippers back when he was, you know, the guy that we know to be the point God. Like, you know, he did have that meltdown against O KC. I even think he was meltdown-ish in last year's OKC. The game seven, those last few possessions, I thought he was a little bit skittish.

But for the most part, Chris Paul has been incredible in the postseason. We remember that shot he hit against the Spurs in 2015. Like, he's mainly been an incredible crunch time player. I guess, you know, when you don't want a championship and you lose in heartbreaking fashion and, like, a few times, right? Like, it's happened a couple of times to Chris Paul. so he doesn't really get that rep, but he's always been a gamer.

Yep. So 38 assists over his past three games and only two turnovers. I believe he's had one turnover over these past two games against the Nuggets and the Western Conference semis finals. I mean, is it as simple, Rob is like the sons just compliment him in ways that perhaps other teams didn't. Like,

obviously Chris is going to get other guys involved and he's going to stir the drink and he's going to overmanage things to a point. do you think like whether it's the youth, whether it's the talent the sons have around him peeking at the right time? I don't know. Is this just to feel like things are aligning for Paul in ways that maybe in years past they weren't?

Yeah, I mean, well, the Rockets team he was on in 2018 was basically there. You know, they were all the way to the finals, you know, hamstring excluded. And so, you know, for this team, this is a really holistic effort. You know, Chris Paul has been awesome. He has been incredible in terms of initiating

in terms of drawing the defense. And really a lot of what Phoenix is doing comes from the way they've been able to overextend Denver's defense and then the weak side is totally open. You know, someone is just way late rotating out to a shooter in the corner or a shooter on the wing

and all those guys can drive. All those guys can move. And they start moving without the ball. Like if you just watch Cam Johnson on one of the possessions he comes into the game and what he's doing on the weak side, these guys are not standing still. They are constantly tugging on Denver's defense.

and pulling on them. And then you look at the ball, and it's Chris Paul toying with three dudes at once off the dribble, just with the threat of a mid-range jumper. That's all he has right now. He doesn't really want to take three still.

He's not going to get all the way to the rim. He has the threat of one shot, and that's enough. And between him and Book and the way they're able to play off each other, the threat of those things is enough to tease a defense apart. And I think that's what we're seeing more so than,

you know, Chris Paul being dominant in the way that superstars are dominant. And, you know, we can't forget it. It doesn't hurt to be playing against a Ptiolo on Denver, right? Like, that's not a terrible thing to have happened to you when you're 36 years old and you're Chris Paul. And the other option is Monty Morris or your son, your actual child, Austin River. Sorry, Doc. You know, that doesn't hurt either. And I'm glad that Justin said, sorry that Rob said that it has been a very holistic thing because let me be the first to say this, guys. This is my first time doing this on this pot.

I owe DeAndre Aiton an apology. A major freaking apology. Just the way that he's come out and, you know, whatever. Forget his hard screens and rolling hard to the basket and catching and finishing and running the floor. You know, Yokic did have his times where he looked like a plumber today where Aiton is just literally sprinting down the floor. Pass him. But his defense where he's making. it's so that Yokish can't just completely cut him and get to his spot as soon as he makes

his move. Like it's several dribbles. Nobody's moving on Denver. So Sons players are able to dig in on him. Whereas damn near five guys guarding Yokic, it seems like at times. So Aiton just what he's been able to do defensively in both series now, where he's making Anthony freaking Davis think about what he has to do, which seemed unthinkable. And now he's doing against Yokic.

This is serious business. And, you know, in defense of myself and many others who didn't believe this could happen, he has never shown this in his whole life before. So he's growing before our very eyes. And I do think Aten deserves a healthy amount of credit, which of course is before we even get to Devin Booker. Yeah, I think you're apologizing on behalf of all of us here. I'm fully ready to rename this podcast group chat brought to you by DeAndre Aden at this point. Like, we really have to give him an outsized proportion. we'll leave that to the pros.

But, yeah, I mean, there were, I think what's been a revelation for as far as Aiden goes in these playoffs as a whole is all of these little plays where earlier in his career, and even earlier this season, you would expect him to play smaller. You would expect him to pass out of situations or not rebound or not body guys up.

And he's going against one of the biggest, baddest centers in the league. And like, there was a possession early in this game where he caught on a role with Aaron Gordon in front of him. And rookie DeAndre Aden makes the pass to the corner. And this DeAndre Aden just goes straight up, totally confident for a little hook shot.

And it's not like a super impressive shot. It's not technically there's nothing amazing going on there. It's just a total difference in disposition between where he was and where he is. And frankly, where he is and where a lot of the bigs in the league are right now. And you know what I think happens a lot with that too, Rob? It's like when you see that move happen, that's a move that big men are basically taught since they're like seven, right? Like you're way bigger than everybody else.

All you do is lean on somebody and do a jump hook, and you're going to score for us every time and you do it at every single level, right? But then you get to real competition and you never get to use that move anymore because the guys are just as big as you are. And sometimes they forget, like, yeah, I know Aaron Gordon's a springy guy.

He's a pretty big guy, but, hey, you're big to him. Just go back to what you used to do back when you were nine years old. Turn around and shoot that hook right over your shoulder, and he's doing that. He's recognizing his mismatches. and like you said, he's playing with incredible force. Yeah, the issue I've always had with Aiton is that he became too enamored with his own jump shot,

which was hit and miss and mostly miss a lot of the time. Sounds like our buddy Zach Harper, if we're being honest. Sure. But if you look at his shot chart, just specifically from this game, every shot is clustered right at the basket. And that's all you need from him. He's a giant man, and especially against a team like the Nuggets,

who is significantly undermanned. That's really all you need. to do. That would be my counter though if we're given eight in love. We do have to admit that the Nuggets are not themselves. A lot of it is riding on one, the nuggets just to outscore this team. That's the only chance I think they're going to have in this series. But two, for Yokic to kind to kind of be the guy who does it because right now he's not getting a lot of support. Michael Porter Jr. His back, I guess, is flaring up. He did not look anything close to the guy that we'd seen all season. And then you're just like hoping that you get big games from Faso or Fasundo. What is it?

Fasundo Capazzo? Facundo compaso. Facundo. Thank you, Rob, for that glorious pronunciation. Aaron Gordon, who's, like, spending half the time fighting with Jake Crowder. Is it compazo? Is it compazo? Ooh, I've heard both on that. We need an official ruling for the other than I'm trying. Yeah.

But there really isn't a lot there to turn to, and I think that showed up a lot tonight. And they were doing, like, a mini, you know, build a wall in front of Janice type of thing, to Yokic. And that's the type of thing. You can't afford to have your whole defense sucked into the entire paint when Jamal Murray's on the floor, right? Like, good luck just letting Jamal Murray shoot practice threes all night against you. But when it's Monty Morris and Caposso and Austin Rivers, like, yeah, I'm sagging the hell off of you.

And like I said, Aiton is giving enough resistance at the point of attack when Yolkich starts his move. They can just send a nice hard double. And it's like, yeah, go ahead. Send it to Capazzo. Go ahead, do that. You know, they're building a wall in front of them. You saw sort of at the end of the half that he started doing more picking pops. And he's like, you know what, F this.

They're not going to let me get to the rack. Let me shoot a couple of threes. And, you know, that helped and it worked a little bit. But that's not a diet you can subsist on when you're counting on your team to score to win this series. Like nobody said Denver was going to come in here making a thing because they were strapping up Phoenix Suns. No, like you were supposed to come in here and score. And Phoenix has shut that whole thing down. Speaking of diet, have you guys seen these t-shirts that got printed off of Nicola Yokic's MVP win?

He was, I believe, Michael Malone was wearing one during the press conference he gave after the announced Yokic's win. But there's something. So it basically has a bunch of things that Yokic was nicked for over the years. And, you know, some of it's in bounds, right? out of shape, can't jump, slow, flopper. But as I'm looking over this shirt here, one says too skinny. That never happened. Did that happen?

That never happened. That never happened. And then also, who's buried here in probably the smallest print, the kid from Denver. So you have a lot of like, like barbs used against him. And then I guess like a nickname that nobody has ever used for him. Is that true? out a dig at LeBron? I'm just a kid from Akron. I think that's what that is. I feel like it's one of those things where normally after two or three of these, they would go et cetera, et cetera, but they felt

like they had to pat out the graphic. And so they ended up with the kid from Denver. I mean, I guess it's fine. Maybe back in the Balkans, he was considered too skinny. I heard people are pretty tall and girthy over there. So maybe back over there, culturally, he was considered skinny. You know, it's one of those things like when you live in L.A. and Miami, where like, size people feel like out of place over here. That might be the situation going on in the Balkans. So girthy in the Balkans is what your sources have told you. Okay.

I like sociologist Waz popping on the pod today. I'm here all week, guys. I do have to say, I'm alarmed with this shirt just how similar it is in design to like an, it's wine o'clock or a but first coffee kind of aesthetic of home decor. These are not the things you want to invoke. There's a Serbian flag in here, too. There's just a lot. Oh, and in the back, there's like a Joker.

Like, it's Yokic dressed up as the Joker with jokes on you. It's just like, it's too many things. If I was editing this shirt, I would say to just lose your babies, take out a lot of that and just focus on one idea here. Also, is Novak, Jokov, what's his name? Isn't he the Joker? Did you not ask your Balkan sources for the pronunciation guys? get back to you on that. Actually, let me get the sources back on that nickname.

Okay. So, yeah, it's been disappointing to see what's happening in the Nuggets here in the series. I mean, one thing I do want to say, though, is it does feel like the Suns, considering their age, considering their experience in the playoffs, which I guess it's only Chris Paul. And I guess Jay Crowder, they really haven't hit many speed bumps. They've taken care of business when you've expected, when they've needed to. Yeah, they played against an injured Lakers team and killed them. Rightfully so, by the way.

There's teams that would have went in there and be like, all right, no AD, who cares, we got this. They smelled blood and they stuck a knife in the Lakers' hearts. Like, you got to give them credit for that. And then they play another injured team and they're kicking their butts up and down the floor. That's respect. Like, this team is respecting their opponent. They're understanding the magnitude of the sort of moment and situation that's in front of them. Like, when the season started, you can't tell me that organization thought they would,

would see themselves in the conference finals, just no way. And now they have an opportunity to be in the conference finals against, let's face it, two teams on the other side of the bracket that nobody would consider to be anyone's version of a juggernaut. They got to be feeling good about themselves. And the fact that they're comporting themselves both effort-wise and in their execution this way, there's something to be said about that. Well, a lot of that goes to what you were saying earlier was about how they're treating

the other guys on the floor who are not Yokic. Like they have respect for the concept of what the not. Nuggets art, they do not have a lot of respect for Faku Campo to hit threes against them. And I think, you know, Portland tried something similar. Like they even mentioned this on the broadcast. Like Portland tried a similar approach. And I think what this series has indicated and really driven home is that

guarding a guy like Yokic is not about brilliant scheme. It's about the situational awareness of the guys you have on the floor. And the sons for, you know, having a team with an old point guard, for a star that was really flagged for being a one-way, player when he started his career, for having a bunch of young guys, they are reading these situations defensively, perfectly.

They are all over Yokic, they're all over the passing lanes, they're crowding the way they need to. Like, these dudes are just reading really well. Yeah. Is that the most surprising thing you think about the Sons this postseason? Not for me,

in the sense that they've been doing this all year. They carried over, and, you know, people are going to say, well, you're kind of beating this thing with a dead horse or you beat in a dead horse? or you beating the dead horse into the ground?

I never could remember. But how do you beat something with a dead horse? You just, you fling it. You put it over your shoulder and you just like that. They play with high effort level. That's an NBA skill. They did it all year. I watched them do it all year.

And even when, guess what, the Chris Paul and Devin Booker thing didn't mesh automatically when the season started, it took a while for them to figure out how they were going to make the marriage work. And God bless them, they did. And it's carried over into the playoffs where everybody's given high level effort.

And, you know, I'm not surprised by them executing game plans, et cetera, et cetera. And I think Monty Williams was somebody who, you know, let's face it, hipster basketball corners and Internet didn't think very highly of him and what he brought to the table. And, you know, in his last style, and he's proven to be a damn competent coach

who comes up with solid game plans and gets his team to compete and execute. Yeah. I think what's surprising is not what they've done, but some of the way they've done it in the sense that Devin Booker had 18 points in this game. And it was a feeding frenzy. It was stops into runs, into threes.

And it was just, it was such an overwhelming team effort in that way where they don't need Devin Booker to be the next transcendent superstar. I think that's what the people who even had pegged the Sons for a deep playoff run, that's probably what they were banking on is, oh, you know, Chris Paul's sophistication in these games and Booker just being able to hit these incredible shots and incredible volume. And they haven't even needed to draw on some of that stuff yet.

Yeah. The one thing you heard a lot about Monty Williams down in New Orleans was just like what a good man he was and like how fostering he was. So you took that to mean he was whack, Justin. Be honest, you was covering the team back then. So you took that to mean damning with faint praise. Right. Well, he did get fired before I got there. That was one thing, although he did make the playoffs, and he was assured that he wouldn't get fired if he did make the playoffs.

And then Del Dents kind of changed his mind on the fly there, which is a whole other story we can get to it another time. But the whole thing was like he was a bit more like a college coach. I think a lot of the young guys really took to him. He had that whole experience with Ryan Anderson. When Ryan Anderson went through that tumultuous time in his life down in New Orleans, and like, I think a lot of people still view Moni very highly as a result of that. the guys who played for him there. And it feels like he's having that effect on the young guys, but he's also showing the other stuff on top of that.

And I don't know how much of that is just the Chris Paul effect because he's going to manage and just organize everything on the floor. It's another coach on the floor, et cetera, et cetera. But he seems to have merged both of those things in order to find the best version of like a team under him. He's made an incredible turn as a coach. Just in terms of the stuff that he runs. And, you know, like obviously there's differences in personnel

between what he had in New Orleans and what he has now. But really talented players in both spots and just the way he's able to leverage everyone on the floor at once, the way he has his team playing so cohesively. I mean, coaches improve too. Coaches developed too. And I think Monty, he's really put himself in a pretty distinct class in terms of game preparation, in terms of game planning, in terms of just like the way that they're looking to attack Denver specifically, this is incredibly high-level stuff.

You know, I watched Chris Paul on JJ Reddick's podcast one time because they were just on some hoops nerding out, right? Like both of them. And Chris Paul was explaining to JJ. He's like, yo, JJ, don't you hate the drop coverage? And he's like, it's not that I hate the coverage. He's just like, your coverages need to be matchup specific. You can't have one size fits all pick and roll coverage in this league.

The best teams are going to see what you do. every single time and they're going to figure out a way to beat it. You need to be versatile. You need to base your coverages off of who you play. And I think the highest compliment you can pay a team is that they base what they're doing on who it is they're actually going to play. And Phoenix has shown that throughout two rounds here in the postseason. And shit, man, that's fucking impressive.

Are you saying that straight to Mike Boodenholzer or should we forward it along? Oh, Lord. Oh, Lord. Oh, Lord. Now, I had the tweet. I hope Mike Boodenholz has still got his job interview voice. My black homies and know what I'm talking about. All right. Let's take a quick break here because I do want to get into some small market,

big market stuff and the bucks factor in right there. So let's take a break and we'll come back. So since the first round, we've lost a couple of our big market superstars, the Lakers, RIP. Earlier than that, we lost the Warriors. And I think once we got to the second round, the big thing you heard, especially around the interwebs was, oh, no, only the small market teams are left. I believe the stat that gets floated around here is that a team who hasn't won since 1983 will win a title.

And tonight's matchup kind of plays right into that. You have two, I mean, Denver's not really a small market, but they're definitely a market that doesn't draw a lot, especially amongst the superstar class. Well, okay. Phoenix probably in the same camp. Listen, listen, if you constantly worrying about the luxury, tax and reporters always talking about your owner worrying about money. You small time. You're a small fry.

That's what they are. This is the kid from Denver after all. Right. I guess Phoenix would be in that too if we're categorizing it by owners penny pinching. Well, I guess let's start here because I want to get into a little bit of this. But are you guys excited at all was that we're starting to see different teams make it farther, that we're getting exposure to some of these young stars in the league that we haven't before? I don't know if I'm excited for different teams making it further

more than I'm excited to have watched Devin Booker do something in a big moment, right? Like watch Donovan Mitchell do what he did last night against the Clippers, right? Watch Yokic, well, he's been doing it, but you know what I mean? Like, I love watching these guys be presented with opportunities to show what it is they can do

against the best players in the biggest spotlight with fans in the crowd now again. and delivering. That's what gets me excited, right? Watching these guys prove themselves, you know, in the crucible of the postseason. Now, individual markets, I don't get sentimental about that stuff. Call that my New York City bias. Yes, I'm a city slicker.

No, I don't care about you flyover country people. And no, I never will. But do I like watching, did I like watching Yonis get to the conference finals for the first time two years ago? Hell yeah. I want to watch the young guys prove themselves. And I think we've seen that this postseason. Even Luca, who loses in the first round again, he proved himself. Like, I'm a big time player.

You put the best people in front of me, I'm going to show out. And I think you've seen that countless examples in the postseason. Even Joel has just looked amazing, right? Not that he was, let's just face it, his postseason performances have lagged behind his regular season performances in the past. And this year, he's stepping up to the plate. Trey Young, same thing. I'm, again, I'm not, I don't know what I'm happy for the people of, you know,

Marietta, Georgia or Gwinnett County or, you know, Buckhead. But I love watching Trey Young do what he does because he's somebody specifically him who seems very in tune and in the moment, understands what it is that is happening before him. and he's embracing it both with his play and with his attitude. Well, even just for people on podcasts like this

and people who write about the NBA and follow the NBA, it's nice to get some of this hypothetical shit sorted out. We talk all the time, but who's up for this? Who can last in a series?

Who can make a deep playoff run? And because LeBron takes up so much airspace and wins so many series, you just don't get to see guys even try. And so that's what's great about this year is we're going to get

to see so many different guys. Like I said, like book, like Trey, tested in different ways that we just don't get normally. And so, like, to me, that is a huge boon. We can, the marketing thing is a whole different conversation.

We can have that marketing conversation too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so the inevitable thing that gets brought up is you will first see a wave of tweets saying, well, you know, the NBA is going to be really mad when they get the bucks versus Utah

in the NBA finals just because of the ratings. And then you get the backlash to that, which is, well, the NBA needs to market these teams, better so they don't end up happening there. And there's a lot baked into that. I do think one of the big things is exactly what you guys are saying. Like, this is our first real exposure to some of these guys. And so I don't know if you could really fault the NBA for like not getting behind John Morant or Trey Young guys who like have only been in the league two,

three years who haven't even had an opportunity to have these big moments. And I do think like the one good thing about sports is they do kind of like, there is a certain degree of a meritocracy because like the guys who perform best who do so in the most dynamic style who are the biggest celebrities tend to be the drivers. And I feel like that kind of sorts itself organically. I don't really need markets to do so. In fact, like we were talking about Oklahoma City just a few years ago. I remember this specifically, Katie doesn't need to be in L.A. or New York or by the Bay in order to sell shoes. Russell Westbrook doesn't need to. And that's why the Lakers who were on a down swing who didn't really, like, do things the right way.

It didn't matter. You didn't have to go to the Lakers in order to do so. And so I don't know. I'm a little confused as why all of a sudden there needs to be a rush. There needs to be an active decision by the NBA to get behind something. Well, I want to drill down on something you said there when you were talking about the way the NBA pushes guys like Jha or Trey, for example. Is the problem with Trey Young that he's not popular enough?

Like, Trey Young is a phenomenally popular. basketball player. He is. Yes. And like we do see these with individual talents. My bigger question is just like when we talk about marketing and we talk about the NBA and market size and who gets attention and who doesn't, it's a lot about how the NBA itself, this is what the conversation centers on, how the NBA is pushing these guys. When to my mind, I'm not sure the NBA ever really pushed anybody all that successfully. It's been a lot of transcendent players, big time brands, brands like Nike or Gatorade getting in that mythology in a different way. And, and the league growing at times in which they were tethered to the success of the Lakers and the Celtics

and the Bulls being on basic cable television for everyone around the country, almost by coincidence because WGN is in Chicago. These are not like marketing problems to me, at least in terms of the trajectory of what the NBA has been. From here on out and how the NBA continues to grow and promote the game in these markets, I understand why that has to be a part of the conversation. I just don't really see it as that big of a problem right now. Yeah, and I think part of what people need to understand, and I've said this over and over again, is that we're in a sort of reset mode as far as NBA stories. And, you know, it's not just the NBA.

How we understand life is basically via through stories and storytelling. And the NBA right now doesn't have a great story. We're sort of coming out of the Golden State, LeBron, et cetera, et cetera. And we're building new stories right now in the moment, right? And as far as how guys were getting marketed before, like there's no equivalent to a Grant Hill Sprite commercial. And I know I'm dating myself, guys, by both mentioning Grant Hill and Sprite commercials.

But like these things were culturally relevant in a way that it's hard for somebody who spent six hours a day on TikTok to understand. Now, if Sprite was going viral on TikTok all over the place and Instagram and Twitter and all of that, then sure, maybe they could make their people more powerful. but the way culture operates is a lot different. You know, when I went on Bill's podcast for the first time, he said, how come you're not a Nick fan?

I said, yo, like, I was propagandized by Nike, McDonald's, Gatorade. Like, these are marketing media machines back in 1993, right? Like, they were inescapable as far as their brand reach. That's not the case anymore. And also, I would argue that it's kind of on the players to market themselves. And, you know, we talked about Devin Booker earlier. He's doing a great job of that. He's dating a Jenner.

Okay, this is the ringer. We can talk about it. A lot of people would not know who that man is. But for the fact he's dating a freaking celebrity. And guess what? I would also posit why I am very bullish on the NBA and their ability to market themselves is the fact that the Devin Booker of baseball cannot date a Jenna.

The Devin Booker of golf cannot date a Jenner. The Devin Booker of quarterbacks cannot date a Jenner. Okay. Like, it's the NBA that is special in this way. So as far as marketing of the league, man, I think that's the one thing they're pretty freaking good at. I think the stories that are very sports related will come back, that are on court related.

Like, we will build these stories around what's happening on the court when it comes to Luca and Booker and Janus because he's about to get cracked over the head again and we're going to build those stories. But all of that other stuff, like you can't count on Gatorade to push people into millions of homes anymore. Yeah, I think the market-sized thing is almost too narrow

because as was saying, the greater arc of what the NBA is and needs to be, needs to come back to the basketball at some point. And that's the big question is, how does the NBA get people to care about games? I don't know how they do that. I don't know if Brooklyn's going to help the way to tell you that.

And this is, you know, Ethan Strauss wrote about this recently, and I thought one of the things he pointed out that they really resonated with me, and this goes back to what you were saying, too, was about just like the Sprite commercials for Grant Hill, or you want to look at like Little Penny

or whoever it is, these marketing campaigns in different areas. The emphasis needs to be more on fun. It needs to be more on the fact that this shit is incredible to watch, that these people are fun to watch, perform. Yeah.

And we're getting a little heavy in terms of how these guys are understood and the stories we tell about them, understandably. Like, we also want to wrap around our heads around them as holistic human beings. Like, I think that's important, especially in any, like, internet world in which anyone can be pilloried at any second. I think it's important to understand these people are human beings. But this shit needs to be fun. And it needs to be understood and marketed that way.

Well, aren't the players culpable more than anyone for that? Because I do think to a certain extent, like, players can do whatever they want. I don't care that players are teaming up or are being mean to media members like we were used to it at this point. But I do think at a certain point that's going to turn off the casual fan that like the Nets are a prime example of both things that you're talking about there, Rob, where they teamed up and they look like this colossal juggernaut on the one hand.

And so it kind of depresses the momentum going into the playoffs or in a regular season game where if they're just going to mow everybody down, I do wonder like how much interest there will be in the game. And also, like, if KD and Kyrie are just being dicks to everybody, like, that is, again, within their right. But I think it does, to a certain extent, turn people off. And so I do wonder if, like, things have gone too far. I do think, like, that is the central issue, like, how teams are built and how players are interacting with the public these days rather than market size. But to me, that's a celebrity question. That's, like, an individual versus team in terms of how we understand it, connect.

with the NBA. Like, Kyrie Irving is going to have an immense number of fans, whether the nets are winning games, whether they're kind of mediocre and he's still, you know, showy and awesome and an incredible highlight package all to himself. Like, the guys on that team are going to be marketable and successful in the way the NBA needs them to be almost regardless of what the nets do. And I mean, it's tough, it's tough to dig into this stuff because we go very quickly down the spiral into like how we understand history through like great men theory kind of stuff. Of course the NBA orbits around superstars.

I don't want to go quite too far down that rabbit hole. But it only has so much power to change the fact that we are a celebrity obsessed culture, that we are a celebrity-focused culture. I don't know that that's changing anytime soon. And, you know, we've gone this long in a conversation without even talking about the fact that because it's the NBA, the elephant in the room is always race. It's like a bunch of fucking black dudes. and you're trying to sell this game to a overwhelmingly white audience, right?

And from the very start in the 70s, where they're calling it the Cocaine League, the NBA's been battling a perception problem, quote unquote, from the start because it's considered to be America's Black League. And, you know, we can't ignore that question in that we're even asking it, right? Like, we asked it of baseball for games that lasted four and a half hours, right? It wasn't like, yo, why don't people like Roger Clemens or something or, you know, Mike Trout or whatever? With the NBA, it's like, is Kyrie 2 Dower? Yes.

You know, yes. Could he be a little bit, you know, nicer with the public? Sure. but I've also like I've heard those same qualities be looked at as virtues when it comes to people like Tom Brady or Aaron Rogers. You know what I'm saying? Like we have to acknowledge that that's part of the NBA. That's always going to be a crutch that the NBA has. It's that the perception of the league is that it's the black one.

Right. And they're selling it to a majority white audience. And it's like, yo, we want to promote them as individuals. But let's face it, a lot of black individuals turn white people off. Like, they're always going to be walking this bit of a type rope. But I just think it's on us as media, as fans, to just concentrate on the shit that we like and big it up. You know, like this, like, I don't remember ever talking to my friends about how much I hated watching Derek Harper play for the Knicks. I just talked about Jordan all day.

I never, ever, ever brought up Charles Oakley not having a jump shot out to 10. feet that did like it didn't come up right you just talked about the brilliance um and i think we do need to get back to that because there is a lot of fucking bitching and moaning by the way james hardin prime example the amount of bitching that media people did about james harding get into the free throw line was insane dude it was insane we need to just get back to big enough what it is we actually like about this game well don't the nets present an interesting problem though because you can't look away from the things that you don't like there. And I don't want to diminish the race parties.

I don't be the white guy being like, no, it's not a racial problem. Certainly that's baked into everything that's happened. But I do think the nets are on a crash course at this point to being the most high-profile team in basketball. And these guys are actively antagonistic about a lot of different things to the point where KD is like telling Jared Greenberg in the walk-off interview,

like ask better questions and stuff like that. And I think that is, I think it's a marginal difference here. And so Rob was talking before about, celebrities. I don't think KD and Karee are celebrities on the same level that you would need to be in order to make like a global huge impact because LeBron is on another level from everybody else. LeBron's peers are like the queen of England and Drake. And like he's literally like a one-of-one celebrity global icon in this world. And I don't think KD. Kyrie ever get to that level. And like maybe they wouldn't anyway because Katie has had a long history. He had the KD Nike

issues for so long and they just never really hit. Maybe he just doesn't have the right personality. I have no idea why some people are cool and why some aren't as evidenced by me just being myself. But I do think like that is that little difference between KD's level celebrity and LeBrons is the difference between the NBA kind of having this next win post-Lebron. Well, yeah, there's the question of who NBA fans talk about in the league and who is recognizable out there in the world. And that is an enormous golf, to your point, Justin. Even with someone like Janus, when he was an MVP,

he took a huge jump in public appeal and recognition when he was on 60 minutes. There are all kinds of audiences and constituencies that the NBA just is not hitting for whatever reason with some of these guys. But I don't think it's an NBA pushing problem. The reason LeBron is LeBron and the reason Steph is Steph, obviously they have to have the basketball stage and the notoriety and the skill and the talent and the market ability to do it.

But it's not because the NBA put them in a bunch of matinee games on ABC. That's not the reason that Steph is Steph. Also, our white guys are an American. That's tough. That's a bit tough, right? Like, Luca and Yokic, not being from Indiana and Idaho. Like, that's kind of tough as far as the push is concerned. And I don't think those dudes are interested in being huge media stars.

It doesn't do interviews. I don't understand that. Like, does he have a body buried somewhere in Slovenia or something? Because he completely, like, runs the opposite away from media opportunities. More so than, like, even the one-of-one superstars like Zion and some of these other guys. He does nothing. I think it's the language barrier. I really do.

Because if I was in a foreign country and that shit was my second language, I don't know that I would want to get up there and be terrible at it. I don't think that I was, honestly. I don't care about how confident you are. Like, if you know English is your second language and you're still working at it, you don't want to say something funny and then they make fun of how you say it. Like, you know, like, I can think of my own experiences like going with my family to Haiti and I speak Cache and Creole like decent enough. And like that feeling every time you say something off and they go, say it again.

And then you do it. And he's like doing that. He's having that happen to him all the time. Like, why would he want to get in front of a camera? and do that and be not good at English. Like, that's what I think, honestly, is happening. And, you know, I don't think Janus is completely media shot, but he's also put it out there that he doesn't want to be the face of a league

that he's never won a championship in. You know, like, these are real human issues, right? And again, like, I don't know that there is a genius marketing campaign being pushed behind those things that make Janice or Luca or Yokic unique. You know, we just mentioned at the top of the show that piss poor t-shirt that they made for the man who just won the fucking MVP of the league, bro. And that's what they came up with for this guy. You know, I don't think there's enough creativity being put around making these guys as interesting as that as I think they is. I think Luca's super interesting.

Same with Yokic. You know, the Brooklyn guys, I'm not going to lie. I don't think Kyrie or James Harden specifically have anything. interesting to say in public. You know, I think KD's a little bit differently. I think he's a lot more thoughtful than those two. At least he's been in his public statements. But, you know, I think that's something that, again,

Devin Book is doing his part. Lucas got to do it now. The Jenner's taste in the opposite sex. Yeah. I don't know. You got to try something now, y'all. But this is where it all comes full circle. because we were talking about, you know,

all these guys getting their shot in the playoffs for the first time. I think there's been a lot of angst, not that shot, a different shot. You're just going to say. There's been a lot of angst over exactly what was just talking about with Yon. It's like, who's going to be the next face of the NBA after LeBron? I mean, let's give these guys a chance to fucking win first. I think a lot of those questions are going to answer themselves based on who is in the conference finals every year.

Who is making those deep runs and as a star and wants to be involved in the league in that way. those guys are out there. Yeah, it's not going to be a state farm ad that, that, like, punches the ticket of the next face of the league. Like, to Waz's earlier point, I think Trey, just the theatrics that he's displayed on these big stage, those are the type of things that we're looking for. Like, Trey has always played a particularly vibrant style of basketball, but now we're seeing him a win, which people love.

And we're seeing him do it in, like, the most balzy, like, fuck you style. And that's just, like, he has Hutzpah. He has the things that, like, differentiate him from Yokic. If you want to say, like, why Yokic isn't a star and Trey might be, it's that. It's, like, it's honestly, it comes down to being cool, which, like, I don't know what the, like, the mathematical, mathematical equation for that is. But, like, Trey kind of has that and Yokch doesn't. I don't know. That, like, fake turnaround jumper into a pass to Will Barton down the lane today was pretty fucking cool, to be honest with you.

Yeah, and, you know, the funny thing about Yokch is, like, all my life, All I've been told is how amazing fundamentals and passing and triple threat and all this shit is. And he does all of that. So, post moves and all of it. He's shooting. He does every single thing that you're supposed to do when it comes to fundamentals, which I might add, since I did already racialize this, just as a tangent, varier and Rob. So is man-to-man defense and keeping your man in front. I noticed white dudes never mentioned that as a fundamental,

and I wonder why that is. But we keep going. Did you just ask why white guys don't play one, like, man-to-man defense? No, I said why they never mention it, keeping your man in front of you as a defender, why they never mention that as a fundamental of the game. I'm just curious as to why that never ever comes up. I'll let the listeners come up with some answers in my Twitter.

I feel like we're paging Luke Ghanard right now, Rob, as you were saying, about Yokic. Yeah. All right. Let's take a quick break and we come back. We're going to talk about our playoff MVPs and look ahead to some of these series on Thursday. All right. So at ESPN, David Thorpe used to do this stick for every postseason where it was postseason MVP.

So not just the finals MVP, but the MVP of the entire playoffs, which used to do once. every week. We are borrowing from that liberally, which is to say we are stealing it completely. I think it's particularly interesting after the first round, as there's still a lot of different options. By the time we get to the finals, it's pretty much whoever plays the best in the finals. Right now,

though, there's a lot of candidates for it. Why don't we start with number one? Rob, who do you have first on your ballot? See, I don't think there are a lot of options. Not to undercut the bit, because to me, there's Kevin Durant and there's everybody else. And accept no substitutes as far as this stuff goes because, you know, like we've seen

amazing games from Kwai Leonard. We've seen amazing games from Luca or Joel Embed. Yokic has had a great playoff so far. A lot of those guys, there's questions of, okay, are they going to pop into this moment? Are they going to elevate their games for this stretch? Are they going to deliver for their teams in this particular way at this particular time? And Katie is just kind of living at that level the entire way, making unblockable shots. all the time, doing things nobody else can do.

I just don't see a thing you can do with him when he's hitting shots at this level and when he's moving as well as he is and even just kind of doing things that aren't necessarily characteristically KD, you know, great helpside defense, great cutting, like, I mean, he's just being a complete, complete basketball player in a way

that I don't really see anybody measuring up to right now, to be honest with you. Yeah, the one thing that we had worried about going into that series with the books was whether or not the bucks were going to be too big in that the nets were over-reliant on a Blake Griffin, Kevin Durant front line, and they have really just completely blown that out

and it's not even a question. I think a lot of that is a credit to Katie. I mean, Kauai is doing a little bit of this too, like pretty much gang rebounding against Bobon and like just crashing the boards and like getting into the mud, basically. Katie's doing that and then some where he's practically their center and like rim protector

and a lot of those lineups. And so he's not only being this just incredible offensive force, but he's also being a pretty good defender and a pretty lynch pin to what they have going on there. Yeah, Was, who are you feeling for this? I mean, I hate to sound like the guy who voted for Russell Westbrook in 2017,

which we now realize is unjustifiable. I did, by the way. Like literally, I had a ballot that year. I voted for Russ, so thanks. Right. And I think part of why he got that award is because he did the most individual work. And I think to me, in the postseason,

has been Kauai. He has faced the toughest challenge of anybody so far in the playoffs, as far as carrying his team offensively with individual brilliance and defensively. He was the guy at the end of games that it was like, guys, we got to put you on Luca. Not only do you have to create one-on-one on the other end with no help from anybody to set you up, we're leaving you on an island on Luca Donchich, and he got it done. So I think just for the volume of output, he's put on the actual floor this postseason, nobody's faced more than him yet. And maybe that's just an indictment of how horrific the bucks have been. They're scoring at 97 per 100 processions on offense.

They're horrific because the nets are making them horrific. I guess, man. I guess, I guess. I guess. I mean, even Boston wasn't doing this. Come on. I mean, Kawai has been awesome. 31 points on 60% shooting right now.

It's same. Unreal. Yeah. So I didn't have Kauai on my three-person ballot here because I wanted to be a completis. I mean, he's been great, but then I put this together right after that jazz loss, and they didn't look particularly good in that one. I have at two, Joelle Embed, who unfortunately comes runner-up again in another MVP ballot.

He had 40 points and went over the Hawks the other night. I think it was a playoff career high for him, which breaks his pre-year-reveve. previous career high, which was, I believe, done in the previous game he had played. He has the highest plus minus in the playoff, 16.2. And pretty much the Sixers crater whenever he's not playing. I think that's a really big credit to him. And the other guy was Luca. I mean, good God.

What an incredible accomplishment. 77 points created in game seven, the most ever, which is pretty good. Anybody else that they're out there? Pretty good. Yeah, no. And again, like, Luca to me is my number two. You know, it's not to be denigrate guys like Finney Smith and Tim Hardaway Jr. But maybe to denigrate poor Zingis.

But like this guy was doing it by himself. He was. The opportunities that were created for Dallas, the entire series were created because Luca made them so, more so than anybody else. A KD can't claim that because obviously Kyrie is doing a lot for them. Even Joel as a big man, he's not the guy sort of creating these. opportunities for himself. I just think Luca was just to be all and end all

of everything Dallas could do. In a series, man, a guy who's making 3.5 mil on the team because Mark Cuban once went to a fantasy camp with him and fell in love with him. That's a true story, by the way. Bobon was being relied upon,

right? In a zone defense, just they were, shout out, incredible coach. I heard people in Dallas chirping about, oh, Carlis. Like, what the? they had to play Bobon big minutes at a certain point. This roster, if you want to kill anybody, kill Cuban and Nelson.

Rick Carlisle was incredible. I'm just saying like on a team where Bobon is being relied upon for quality playoff minutes, Luca Donchis had the clippers on the ropes because of his individual brilliance. So to me, he's number two. So the Waz Ballad is one Kauai, two, Luca, three, Rick Carlisle? No, it's Brad Stevens because, remember, you would never want another. NBA player besides Brad Stevens.

So even though he got bounced, you see he got the promotion because you would never want another NBA player besides the one the kid Brad Stevens. Yeah. There you go. Rob, who do you have on yours if you were to have a ballot? I mean, I think it's KD1. I think I would go, I think I would go Kauai 2 and B3. And I mean, like this, again, this is tough to leave Luke off of this thing.

I feel, I don't know how you don't make room for him, but those other three guys have been incredible. and specifically, you know, like, I think Embed would be kind of the flex spot, right? Like, if you were going to kick somebody out for Luca, it would probably Embed, but he's been so amazing in spite of his injury. Like, I mean, he's not even really jumping at this point.

He's just kind of lunging himself into Klincapella and scoring and drawing fouls and being utterly dominant. And his jumper is now completely wet, by the way. Like, that thing, you got to, like, run him off his jump shot at this point. Make him put it on the floor. His jumper so reliable now. It's incredible.

I also like that DeAndreau. Hunter also Torah Miniscus and he's all of a sudden out for the entire postseason and meanwhile Joel Embed misses one game. Like I'm actually like a little bit worried that Joel is probably pushing a little bit too hard. Maybe he sees the opportunity to make the finals and like a year from now will be like, oh God, where are his knees? But for now, like it's been incredible just watching him out there. All right.

Let's turn the page to these games tomorrow. I guess it's today when you're probably listening to this. Let's do one question for each one. Netsbox, Clippers and Jazz. for Nets bucks. Here's my question, Rob. Are you ready to welcome your new very online overlords, the Brooklyn Nets? Do we have a choice?

I guess not. I guess my actual question here is, are you just convinced that the Nets are going to steamroll their way to a final slash title? A lot of what we do is going in between games and figuring out adjustments and saying, like, okay, what can Coach Bud here do here? Like, who can he plug into the lineup? What can you do differently? I honestly don't know.

Like there's the obvious thing schematically. They're like, okay, they can not drop quite so much. They can look for offense in slightly different ways. They're isolating too much in a game that they're destined to lose.

If you want to ISO against the Nets, they're going to beat you doing that. Even if you do everything right, if the Nets play the way they did in games one and two, they will win. They will beat anybody. So good luck.

And I do welcome our new overlords. I guess we're just all going to watch episodes of the boardroom nonstop now. Like, this is the life we lead. is Brooklyn Nets basketball and its subsequent umbrella companies, but they are that good. And to me, at least they're still in the interesting phase of that good.

You know, we got into the whole conversation earlier about at what point the Nets rolling over people will be boring. I don't find this boring at all. I am very interested to see just the particular ways in which they demolish opponents if they keep playing this way. Yeah,

I think particularly as Hardin seems to be cooked for a minute. Like, I don't see how he comes back from a ham. me, especially one that was already injured very soon. So this particular version of the team, I find it hard to believe that nobody's going to be able to play better defense than the bucks have. Like, where they just said, we're not going to take anything away. We're going to, okay, we'll start bringing the guy to the level towards KD and leave

a wide open lane for Bruce Brown to catch. They kept calling it pocket passes. These were, I don't even know, like, 4 or 5 highway. Lane passes, dude. There was no resistance. There was no pressure. Bruce Brown is getting the ball going downhill. And you're toast.

Like, some level of resistance and something. Like, make them do something that they kind of don't want to do at some point in the freaking playoffs. This is the NBA playoffs. Like, it can't be stated. The bucks have been an embarrassment. Like, it's just been embarrassing. And you can say, oh, the Nets made shots.

I don't want to hear that, dude. Like, this shit looked like a clinic. You know, obviously, Blake Griffin's not going to rain threes on your head all series long. But the way they got into their offense, it's like they could see what Milwaukee was trying to do and dissect it seven freaking plays away. So I got to believe that somebody, anybody, please, for the love of God, you know, present some type of resistance to what the Nets want to do on offense. Yeah, the Bucks have to be a lot better. but I think the infuriating thing about playing the Nets is there a team where it makes sense

for you to leave Joe Harris wide open in the corner to go chase after Acadie or something. Like all of the decisions are bad decisions. Yeah, it's funny how the Nuggets lose Jamal Murray and it's like, ah, better luck next time. We'll see down the road. They're young and they'll figure it out. And the Nets lose James Hardin or like a MVP

who's still in the prime of his career. And it's like, all right, we'll just be the best team in basketball. That's fine. I do want to ask just really quickly here, though, Rob. Like, is there a adjustment? you expect to see from the bucks. Like if Bud were to actually seek outside counsel, would he act like, do they go smaller?

Can they go smaller now that they don't have spicy ragu in the lineup anymore? Yeah, expect is always a tough word with the buck specifically. I think the obvious move would be to play Janus at the five more. Just because I think, you know, Brooke has given them something in terms of an interior presence they can lob to, but they also turn the ball over a lot doing that. They're just getting bad position on some of those. they're not getting enough out of playing a big

to not play Janus there. So I think that would be the go-to adjustment if you're talking about lineup stuff, is play Janus more at the five. But yeah, without DiVincenzo, it's not like they have a surplus of wings they can plug into those minutes. And PJ Tucker, who, God bless him,

is doing the best he can. He's not looking great, guarding KD at the moment. And if he's not guarding KD, I don't know that he's given you a ton. Yeah, it's tough watching Bogdan play against the Sixers and not wonder, like, if Woj didn't have that one tweet, like where they would be right now,

because he would fit this team perfectly. Just flipping over to the next series here, Clippers Jazz, my one question was for you. So the Clippers found something, as we were a Luton team before, going smaller against the Mavs. They tried to do that against the Jazz. They had some success in that first half, but it seemed like they just kind of ran out of gas.

Do you think that they could still do that against the Jazz and have success? I guess is it fatigue that led to their loss? in that first game, or do you think it's a tactical thing? I think it's tactical. You know, they dust it off Zubb because I think the thinking being if our small lineup is our best one and we can't just use it all game. Because, you know, teams get better at playing against it. Your own guys start to wear it down by, you know, sort of positioning up at every single spot. Then we can steal some minutes with Zub.

And I think what we realize is that that's not the case. You're not going to be able to steal minutes with Zub. and they are going to have to use that lineup. And it is their best lineup. And I do think they have to go offense first. And which is honestly, Taran Luz, that's been his sort of M.O. as a coach is I'm an offense first guy. The guys I'm putting out there is because they're going to get me buckets.

I think he's stuck with Reggie Jackson in the last series because he was giving them some juice offensively. I think that's going to be fine. I just think defensively, they need to be. to realize that this team presents completely different problems than the Mavericks did, right? Like, Kauai Leonard, you know, as good as he was on Luca because he's so big and rangy, you got to have quick feet against Donovan Mitchell. That's not really Kauai's thing anymore.

The shooting is of a different caliber on this team. Like the way you have to get out on shooters is something that they got to sort of get used to, and I think they will. but this series which is why we like the playoffs styles make fights this is a completely new style that they're gonna have to adjust to

yeah and if they're gonna be this small can they find somebody who can freaking stay in front of Donovan Mitchell I don't know that's a different question what God knows it's not Luke Canard I'll say that or boogie

like man when he pulled the boogie card I was like this is getting grim it worked for a little bit and then he got like three files in the span of like three minutes it's like, all right, it's a bit too much here. All right, that's it for us. We have an episode of the boardroom to get to.

I know Rob's favorite show. What you will hear next is my interview with Jordan Ritter-Con for what if the Len Byest story, his new podcast on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. For us, we'll be back same time, same place. Thank you, Sasha Ashall. I got to write this time. We'll see you next time.

All right, joining me now from the ringer.com and the ringer podcast network, I guess. and whatever platforms we do these days. Jordan Ritter-Kahn. What's up, man? Justin, how's it going, man? Glad to be here. It's going well.

So you have a new podcast. Officially today, as we're recording on Wednesday, it is called What If the Len Bias story? It is seven episodes long. The first two, as I mentioned, both dropped today on the Book of Basketball feed. How are you feeling just overall about the project? I'm sure you've been in the weeds a little bit

with Len bias and everything for a while, now? Yeah, it's been, you know, we've been working on this. The idea came up about a year ago. And so it's been, it's been something I've been thinking about and talking to people about and eating and breathing every day for a really long time. And, you know, it came up at a time when we were looking ahead and seeing that this year was going to be the 35-year anniversary of Bias's death. You know, for me, I'm 36 years old. I think you're of a similar to me where we kind of grew up, if you're a basketball fan, never having really watched bias play, because you're too young, but I can't remember a time when I didn't know who he was.

He was always this figure and this tragedy that kind of loomed over these stories that we would inhale about the history of the sport. So to spend the past year kind of looking at the legacy of his life and his death on the basketball world and outside it, I mean, that's part of what makes his story so compelling is that you have this massive hole that he left in the game in the NBA, but also these ripple effects that go into our criminal justice system and, you know, led to some laws that are still on the books today that are, in many ways, pretty draconian. But just so you have this, this young man who dies at age 22 and leaves an impact that 35 years later, you know, feels like his story still has resonance in all of these different

spheres of our culture. And so, you know, to spend a year with that, with that story and talking to people about this one person's life has been tough at a lot of times, but also a lot of fun. And, and yeah, really, really excited to be able to kind of share this story, you know, now that it's finally here. Yeah, no, you usually hear him talked about just the significance of his death. But, like, one thing that jumped out to me, among a bunch of other things, was just about him the player. Like, I really don't have much of a reference point for him. And you talk to a lot of people just about his game. He has some old clips in there.

You have lefty Giselle talking about him, which I always find is interesting that, like, coaches of a certain age can't remember, like some of, like, the broad details, but they could always tell you when, like, some random player hit a baseline jumper in some game that was inconsequential. But what was it like maybe experiencing bias, the player? Maybe I assume for the first time.

Yeah, you know, it was, I think what's fascinating about him is that of a sports fans of a certain generation, you know, the generation above ours, the moment they get the chance to talk about this guy, they just jump at it and their eyes light up. You know, we talked to, you know, Michael Wilbon covered bias for the post. And, you know, just the way that the, how animated he got just describing, you know, a 15-foot jumper that bias would take was like, you know, not what you expect when you're describing a mid-ridge jumper, but just like this level of incredible enthusiasm. Scott Van Pelt, he was obviously a Maryland

guy just going on and on about, you know, the physical experience of being in the arena and watching him play and seeing this talent that, you know, you know is something special. It's been, it's interesting to think about him in the context of today's game. You know, he's six eight, played power forward built when you look at him he looks kind of the way that LeBron looked when he was really young just thick

extremely powerful athlete but then he had this skill set that was especially for that time incredibly rare you know people talk about his jumper as if it's the most gorgeous jump shot they've ever seen and people include Clay Thompson in that discussion and they're talking about this guy

who was shooting at a time when that skill was not nearly as as widespread in the game as it is now. And so thinking about the way he could have translated to today's game, but also thinking about what he could have been back then. You know, he was a contemporary of Michael Jordans. He was a couple years behind him. He was seen as somebody who could, at the very least, be a rival to Jordan for, you know, a decade

or more could be that Durant to Jordan's LeBron that Jordan never had or the will to his Russell. And so kind of teasing out what that could have looked like was one of the really fun parts of this. And getting to hear people who saw him firsthand try to make you feel what they felt when they were in that building was a fun exercise. Yeah. And so not to spoil the entire podcast, but as you mentioned, it goes in a bunch of different directions. Some insignificance he had just in terms of the NBA and just like cocaine and how we perceive some of those things. Is there something that like really jumped out to you is something that you didn't expect to be a part of this story or something that maybe uh you know the layman the lay fan wouldn't expect to to really

uh be a significant part of his legacy i think there are a couple of things one is what i just touched on um you know that i i don't know i i don't know if you're you're similar but sometimes when i hear stories of players who died tragically who i never got to see play I always assume they're a little bit exaggerated. And so with him, I had always assumed that, like, okay, he was really good and he died young. And so maybe we talk about him as having been better than he actually was. But to really kind of get into that with people like, you know, like Wilbonne or Van Pelt or Bob Ryan, or people who played with him or against him, like John Sally, you know, a four-time NBA champion who insists that if bias had played, Michael Jordan probably doesn't win six rings.

The Jordan comps were very strong here. And you see those tossed around a little bit. But like people's, the conviction they talked about those with were surprising. Yeah, it's fascinating. And like, and to, I don't know,

to just be able to sit in that argument for a little while was, you know, it was kind of surprising. And it left me thinking, okay, like this guy really, you know, this is a loss that really changed the shape of NBA history.

I mean, like if Lynn Bias lives, then maybe we're talking about Michael Jordan differently. And if we're talking about Michael Jordan differently, maybe we're talking about LeBron James differently. You know, there are all of these ripple effects that are still with us 35 years later. So that was one piece of it. And then the other was the, you know, we have two episodes that are really heavily focused on kind of the history of cocaine in this country. And bias is death as kind of an inflection point, right?

As, you know, powder cocaine is going from being this ubiquitous drug to being kind of replaced by crack cocaine and the crack panic of the 80s. And kind of digging into how his death lined up with all of that was fascinating. I mean, he was, he died in 1986. There was a midterm election in 1986. And both parties kind of seized on his death as a winning issue, like using his death as a way to get really, really tough on drugs and past laws that were passed without a lot of forethought and without a lot of, you know, kind of the typical process that we expect from our elected officials. and because the national panic following his death was so, so high, they saw this as a winning issue, and these laws are still on the books today. And, you know, one of our episodes focuses on one of Bias's friends who ended up spending, you know,

spending about a decade in prison because of these kind of mandatory minimum sentencing laws that were passed in the wake of his death that are now seen as racist and unjust. And so that's, you know, these are all things that, like, I knew the broad strokes of, of those pieces of his story, but then really, really getting to dig into them, you kind of realize, oh, no, this is every bit as impactful as I'd always been led to believe it was and even more so in a lot of ways.

And I think it's a story that's been told to different generations at different times, but now 35 years later to see the ways in which these effects are still here was really, really fascinating. So you obviously talked to a lot of people for this podcast. Bias's mom is in the first episode, and she has some particularly haunting things to say, I think, is fair to say. And it was very enlightening.

Is there one interview that jumps out to you is something that, like, really informed the entire piece or was particularly interesting or funny or something you didn't expect? Yeah. I would certainly point to Bias's mom. And she was the first person I interviewed, and it felt really important to have her be a part of it. it and have her, kind of have her blessing in order to tell this story. But then also I would say Lefty Drusel, you know, for those who aren't familiar, lefty Drusel is a kind of legendary coach at Maryland in the 70s and 80s. He famously, you know, he was hired when John Wooden was at UCLA and promised to make Maryland the UCLA of the East, which he never ever did, but, you know, he at least

turned him into a competitive program. And he is this like just one of those larger than life characters with this really, really thick Southern drawl and just this kind of like this bluster and cantankerousness. And for him, you know, it was really clear that the wounds of all of this and what happened, not only biases the loss of bias and bias is death, but also what happened to Lefty in the aftermath and when there was this search for someone to blame, the wounds of it are still very much with him. Now that he's, you know, an old man in his late 80s. We have, I think that's the fifth episode of the series focuses a lot on him and he he got pretty testy with me.

He was not thrilled by some of my questions trying to kind of dig into what exactly happened in the aftermath. But all that really showed that, you know, it's been 35 years and the wounds of this are still really, really deep. And the impact it made on the life of someone who's a legend in a sport is really, really significant. So that that's probably one that really sticks with me. So this is now your second narrative podcast, which I think officially makes you a multi-hyphenate. I'm curious, now that you've kind of been through the process and the second one, was there anything you did differently

in this one? Was there anything you approached with the knowledge of having one of these under your belt a little bit differently? You know, the challenge of this one was the pandemic. And so for months and months and months, we were doing all of these interviews over Zoom. And I think as everyone has now realized in their own capacities, like doing things over Zoom can be a somewhat effective replacement for being in the flesh, but it's just not, it's not the same. And then, you know, at the end, like obviously we're releasing this in early June,

but finally in May, after having done almost all of the reporting and most of the writing, you know, I finally got clearance to travel and do some reporting on the ground. And so I went to Maryland for, ended up there for a couple weeks after thinking it would only be a few days. But I think there's just something, it was a reminder that being on the ground somewhere, even if you're reporting on something that happened 35 years ago, being able to walk around a town and talk to people who may or may not have known about the person who you're there to do a story on, to see the places where he lived his life, to see the place where he died, and to kind of sit in rooms with people who were impacted by him, you just can't replace it. Like, no amount of Zoom interviews is ever going to account for, you know, the impact of just

being there in the flesh and being able to, you know, a lot of my time there was spent knocking on the doors of people who did cocaine with Lynn Bias on that night, seeing if they would talk to me, not fun at all to be showing up at a stranger's house to ask them about one of the worst nights of their lives. But it was a reminder that there's no replacement for if you want to really understand a story, just kind of be there in the flesh again. So that was, yeah, that was a really meaningful part of the process for sure. Imagine doing Coke at a party in college once and then like 20 or how, what was it, 30 years later? Yeah, 35. The guy is banging on your door wanting to ask you about that. I guess we could only be so lucky, right? In some senses. I mean, it is a wild thing to be,

you know, I feel for those guys to have this one night in your early 20s in many ways to find you to the public for decades to come. Is a, you know, just an experience that I can't fully, I can't fully fathom for sure. Sure. We don't get that a lot in the blog world. No, I don't think anybody's going to be asking me those questions. Right. All right. So you can catch this podcast at the Book of Basketball feed. It's called What If the Len Byest Story, seven episodes. I've heard the first one. I can't wait to listen to the other ones. Jordan, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks so much, Justin. Really appreciate it. All right. That's it for us. We'll see you next week. Same time, same place. We'll see.