The Ringer NBA Show - The Thunder Are Your 2025 NBA Champions. Plus, What’s Houston’s Ceiling With KD? | The Group Chat

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos celebrate the Oklahoma City Thunder becoming the 2025 NBA champions. They discuss the Thunder’s defense, Tyrese Haliburton’s heartbreaking injury, and much more. Then, they briefly look ahead to what next season looks like for both teams. They wrap up with the massive news from earlier in the day of Kevin Durant being traded to the Houston Rockets. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto and Jomi Adeniran This episode is presented by State Farm®️. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm®️ with the Assist. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Was, gentlemen, the Oklahoma City Thunder. Are your 2024, 2025 NBA champions, can you believe it? Are you going to buy commemorative gear, I guess, is the question, Rob. I think I can believe it without buying the gear. But you know what? I do believe now in 2025, something I wasn't fully expecting to say, defense wins championships. yet again, we're back.

He's right. Watts, how are you feeling? They won the battle of the planes, ultimately. I mean, I think O KC deserves all the credit in the world for how they acquitted themselves this postseason. Like, these guys met every single challenge, all of the hard stuff that we talk about, being down in a series, winning big games on the road,

you know, just being tested in clutch moments of said big games. Like they've come through with a myriad of players, right? Like, obviously there's Shea, who's their MVP, but Chet's had moments, J. Dove had moments, Caruso had moments, Lou Dort,

like, the collective will of this team to get them through this postseason run, I'm just super impressed, particularly because these guys are so young. Yeah. And none of them have really accomplished much in the NBA in terms of postseason success. So they just deserve a lot of credit, man,

for putting this playoff run together and meeting every single challenge. It's a really cool run for a really cool Thunder team. Like 68 wins, a dominant defense, a seven gamer against the best player in the world, a statement against Ant and the Wolves. I don't know why I thought you were talking about Hallibur. I was like, wait, what?

Also a cool run in his own right in Pacers and we'll get to them, the ups and downs of that. But a gut check win for the Thunder in a game seven in the finals, that's a hell of a thing under any circumstances at all. And I think for them to have the whole body of work they have, like it is pretty unimpeachable what they've been able to put together. Yeah, I think we're expecting this one to be ugly,

because as we talked about on our last podcast, game sevens of the NBA finals tend to be in the mud. I think so that was always going to happen to a certain extent. But the Thunder are digging games out of the mud practically his entire post. And so it's not surprising was that this game was a little dicier at times that you would expect considering what happened to Hallibor. We're going to talk about him and his God, like his tragic injury, quite frankly, historic injury, which is tough to watch. But like the thunder, they made it hard on the thunder, but the thunder yet again somehow found a way to just do a little bit enough in order to win this one. Yeah, I mean, by the time you're playing a team for the seventh time in a row, I think everybody kind of knows each other.

tendencies and you know that that fact alone makes it so that you're not getting off any of the fancier stuff that you have in your arsenal you've used everything you got by this point and it just becomes a test of wills and i thought the way that indy came out man um they were ready for this game seven um i'm just i'm look the thunder are the champs they deserve all their praise but I do, I am just extremely impressed by the makeup. The mental makeup of this Pacers group is, like I tweeted it the other day. Like, I'm going to be thinking about this team for the rest of my life, dude. Like, the way these guys just out tough every single opponent this whole postseason.

And it just doesn't feel like these guys should be in games, much less winning them. Yeah. And, you know, getting, pushing the thunder, everybody thought was going to, you know, dog walked them to the seventh game. That's how they came out in game seven. Like these guys were ready for this. I'm like, tip my hat off to them. The players, the coaches, staff, man.

Like, that's a whale of a team. I don't know how you couldn't admire this group and everything that you just laid out was. And the way that, like, even in this game, they just refused to die. They came up like about a quarter short just because they didn't have the scoring. They didn't have the manpower. They just ran out of time. They ran out of time. They did run out of time.

It felt like a real thing as they were. throwing out combinations of players who have barely played together all season because of Halliburton's absence from the lineup. The fact that they went into the second half with a lead, a remarkable achievement under the circumstances, truly off an Andrew Nemhard, now like trademarked step back from the left wing as to like just become one of his shots. And there's so many guys on this team for whom like we have our Aaron Neesmith moments and our Andrew Nemhard moments and our Miles Turner moments and certainly our Pascal's Yakum and T.J. McConnell. Like every pacer has actually.

acclimated themselves so wonderfully over the course of this run. Like you do have to tip your hat and salute and give those guys every benefit of the doubt and every bit of grace for the way that they've played throughout this whole run, but especially here in the most difficult circumstances in Game 7. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in.

With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need, you could focus on what really matters. whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer, ability and eligibility vary by state. Yes, so they were up one at halftime. We got the T.J.

explosion in that third quarter. And then we got the hold on to your butts moment late in the game where Shea has five fouls. They're out of timeouts. They're in the bonus already. And it seemed like the thunder were hanging on for dear life. Ben Matherin basically willed by getting the free throw line at will. a comeback in that fourth quarter

but they had to do that because of Halberd and we were talking around it we should probably head on just absolutely heartbreaking to watch just considering everything that's gone into this miraculous postseason run he is just such a like a wellspring

of joy and happiness even when he's like trolling other opponents like I got a little emotional I'll be honest when he started when he first hit the floor he was just like if he just had such a he's crying so hard and hitting the floor like that was tough to watch watch. Then when you see the replay and you could literally see his Achilles rupture, which is what we're assuming as we're recording this late on Sunday, we don't have official diagnosis yet,

but that's kind of the widely presumed thing. It was like my stomach dropped. And it's funny because like the Pacers went on and played really hard to finish that quarter. I got to the second quarter. I was like, what just happened? I couldn't lock in. I can't imagine doing that on the team. Yeah. It really felt like after after he went down, I don't, I don't know. it sounds like you had a similar experience, Jess. I'm curious if you did too, while it was like I was just like in a days watching this game. Same.

And it did feel like the Thunder kind of took a little bit to figure out what the terms of engagement were going to be with Halliburton out and like how did it exactly attack certain things. And they had to settle into the games on their own terms, but so did we. And I think that's, look, there are many reasons this is a devastating entry. To Tyreys Hallibert, most of all,

to the Pacers after the run that they've had to not get a chance to, you know, defend that run with the fullest strength possible. is a tragedy. It's a basketball tragedy in its own right. There's also something about a moment like this and one of the really special things

about a game seven is the way it's just like complete distilled presence. Right? Like we're not thinking about the off season. Everything is so contained. Everything.

The stakes are massive. The emotions are high. And you see all that spilling out from Tyreys Halliburton when he gets hurt, you know, when he's on the floor there. But the fact that all of that air just got let out from how pressure pack this game felt

I thought it was really unfortunate. and Jafi, you're right, it was an incredibly emotional scene watching him on the floor. I also thought it was an incredibly emotional watching him in the tunnel after the game on his crutches waiting for every pacer as they came off the floor. Like, I almost don't even know what to say.

Like, I don't know how you get a moment like this back or an occasion like this back. Like we were just all kind of robbed of something. Tyrese, obviously, most of all. Yeah, obviously, like, like I'm watching these guys just like run around the, court. And I'm, I'm also trying to put my mind in like Pascal Seaccom's mind or like,

how do you even just hope after this after you know your teammate, your leader, suffer such a devastating injury. But like all of those things you've mentioned that make it so sad, um, it's just tied into, you know, while we're watching sports in the first place. Like, these guys are hyper competitive guys. Like, they really care. Halliburton is out there on a bad wheel. He's got a strained cap. There's no way that injury isn't directly related to why he ruptured his Achilles. Like if it wasn't the NBA finals, he wouldn't be out there playing. And if you watch that game, this dude was going so freaking hard.

You know, like the level of effort that this guy was putting forth on that bad wheel, you know, and inevitably that's what ends up causing the injury. But, you know, at the same time, like I tip my cap to Halliburton for being out there. and going balls through, literally putting his body on the line, man, to try to win a championship for his team. So, you know, it sucks. I would have, you know, I think we would have got an amazing finish if Halliburton gets to play that entire game.

But, you know, at the same time, I salute the guy for even being out there in the first place. Like, it wouldn't have been, you know, he wouldn't have been like, oh, he's got an excuse. Like, honestly, it reminds me of the KD situation in Golden State. Literally the exact same thing. The guy was nursing. a spring calf.

He's dying to come back because he's a hyper competitive dude, dying to come back for the finals, and then ends up messing up his Achilles on that same, you know, leg. And so salute to Halliburton, man, he's going to come back. He's going to still be a great player when he comes back. It just sucks. We didn't get to watch him finish this game. Yeah.

And the unfortunate thing is this has been kind of a mini trend happening in the playoffs. That's far we saw it happen with James. We saw what happened with Jason Tatum. Jeff Stott's who runs the incomparable in street close, who logs a lot of this injury data. He says that this is now the most Achilles tears if this is indeed

an Achilles tear. So we're just on that caveat for now. This would be eight on the season. The previous high was five in the 14-15 season. And this is the type of thing where I wait for data and people like Jeff to earmark these sorts of things. So clearly this is happening league-wide and just is almost like an

addendum to this overall conversation. Like, this is something to take note of. Yes, Halliburton played through the injury. He played, what, three games after initially injuring his calf. And so he pushed through something. But clearly something is happening here. And my PSA would just be stop playing so many goddamn games.

It's almost always the games in every conversation we have about the NBA. And you can't say, if you're the league, that we care about player safety and health and we want our best players playing at the optimal fitness and yet still run them out eight two games and then a postseason. It isn't just like limiting the back. to backs. That's not doing it, right? We're seeing too many superstars get filled in the biggest moments and that's just going to hurt the bottom line, which is what you're after in the first place. So just as a sidebar here, stop playing so many goddamn games, please.

I mean, there's just so many areas of life in which we're abiding by rules that were made 50 and 60 years ago and expecting them to govern what is happening in front of us today. Like, the NBA game today is not what it was in 1965. Like, it's just not. And so expecting these guys to play that many games with this much movement, with this much dynamic action on both sides of the ball. I just don't think it's realistic anymore. And look, the NBA will have a serious conversation about that as soon as there is a financial recompense to offset whatever it is they think they're losing by trimming down the number of games on the schedule.

Maybe expansion is that. Maybe it's not. But like, this is getting untenable. This is getting dangerous for so many guys. And not just because it's happening in a game seven in what's supposed to be a celebration of the league. And what's supposed to be a celebration of the Pacers and where they're going and how bright Tyrese Halliburton's future is going to look. And you're right, he's going to come back. He's young enough.

We have every expectation that Tyrese Halliburton is going to be a healthy and effective superstar level player again. But now he's got a long way back because in part because of the rigors of the schedule that brought him here. And I think it's also kind of dovetails with the Thunder's overall perspective. If you look at Sam Presti's preseason interviews, like he has this one big. You can ask him whatever question you want in the preseason. I think after the season that goes off an hours long. He talks at length about they built depth specifically to deal with the rigors of the new NBA. Part of that is just the torque and the stress that is exerted on a player's body,

especially in the second half of the season when the schedule is a little bit more compressed. And so the Thunder have built their team in large part to avoid situations like this. It's just unfortunate to happen. on the opposite end in the biggest stakes and the biggest moments of the season. But I have to get the Pacers credit, like we were saying, Rob, like they looked like the team

that was able to withstand this more than the thunder because it took a half for the thunder to really be themselves. It really did that take them time to settle in. And again, I would just would have loved to see the alternate version of this game where both teams

are relatively healthy and can actually go after each other because Tyrese was hidden out of the gate. Like this looked like it was going to be an incredibly fun back and forth matchup. And ultimately, the Thunder were able to kind of rest control of it, as they often do, with their defense. By locking it down, I think Shea had a classic Game 7. But by that, I mean, it was hard.

And it wasn't always pretty. And it was effective in the same way that, like, Kobe in 2010 was effective in Game 7. It's like, I really don't care about the shooting percentages. I care. Do you have what it takes to get down everything that's required to win a game like this? And Shea absolutely lived up to that moment. And I thought J-Dub eventually found that moment. And I thought Chet in the second half, what he was able to do defensively,

just completely locking down the paint, change the course of this game. And really, if we're talking about kind of what was able to finally rebuff all of the adrenaline and all of the force and all of the connectivity that was fueling the Pacers to that point, I think a lot of it comes down to the Thunder defense and just everything that they were able to take away. Yeah, that third quarter where they forced, I think, about like seven turnovers. It might even been more. Eight turnovers in that one quarter. You just saw the full culmination of them just being like, look,

their best ball handler mover is out. We can ratchet up the pressure and not deal with some of the consequences that come with being hyper-aggressive that way. And they just took advantage, man. And then, you know, they got some shots to fall, which always matters. But yeah, that's to me, you know, when I think about this particular Pacer's team, excuse me, this particular Thunder team,

it is going to be the defense. It is going to be, you know, a group of guys deciding that they're all going to give a shit about doing stuff that isn't, doesn't get you cool points, you know, doesn't make sports center highlights. Like, they're not going to show a bunch of, they're not going to make a mixtape

for you on YouTube or Twitter video where, you know, you're making perfect rotations. You know what I mean? Like, that's not how that goes. But a group of young guys establishing themselves in this league and collectively deciding that, yo, we're going to make our name.

We're going to make our bones on the defensive side of the ball. Hat tip to the coach, hat tip to the players, San Presti, for identifying the kind of guys who will come in and give ultimate buy-in

to that structure of, you know, team building and being like, yo, this is what we hang our hat on. Like, I got a lot of respect for these guys. and especially because, again, I think it's a little bit easier when you're like, you know,

a sort of seven seconds or less suns type of team. Yeah, we fly up and now. It's easy to talk people into that. Everybody gets to shoot. Everybody gets to look cool, you know, like, but everybody being, you know, dug in, sacrificing themselves on defense so that you can have just a lockdown unit,

you know, big shots to them. That's to me, aside from She being Shea, and I thought, you know, he was excellent today. And some of the shots didn't fall, but he just controlled this game so beautifully, you know, 12 assists, one turnover. He was just excellent on that end. But I am going to think about just a group of young guys, you know, specifically young guys to just come in and be like, our identity is going to be defense. I admire that. Yeah.

Some of those Lou Dort Moonball 3s got a little dicey at times, especially when they were compounded with a stepbacks. He made that one from damn near half court, though. I know, but there was the other seven or so. It didn't look as good. So in total, Indy turned it over 23 times, and the Thunder scored 32 points off of that. They ultimately ended up with 14 steals. And I think the key stat in this game, Rob, Dort, Caruso, Wallace, your three stealsmen, all had three apiece. Like, that is what you want.

Maybe the offense comes and goes with those guys. But, like, that is the heart of this team, because as we've seen time and time again, the defense leads the offense. Totally. And you could see, as we're alluded to, kind of the thunder playing thunder basketball, as it has traveled all season, as they certainly have at home all season, and as has mostly held up in these playoffs. I think there were also the sort of trickle-down effects of T.J. McConnell playing more

minutes, Andrew Nemhart having the ball more, a bunch of, like, you know, bigs catching the ball in positions that they don't normally do. And then you see all the turnovers as sort of result from all of those things. And, like, all of that stuff cascading is just way too much to give the thunder. Like it's just way too much momentum. It's way too much offense. Like they're able to take every one of those turnovers and make absolute hay of it. And I thought, Kason Wallace is another guy who is kind of, to be honest, like, struggled to find his place in this series.

But you take Halliburton out of it and the way that changes the actions that the Pacers can run. Now all of a sudden, like, you're just asking Kaysen Wallace, like, how did T.J. McConnell full court. And now he's trapping. He's poking the ball loose. You can see him become more and more effective as the Pacers sort of change shape. And so, of course, any team that loses Tyrese Halliborne is going to be worse for it. But in particular, trying to solve this defense without your best playmaker is just kind of a fool's errand on a certain level. Yeah, it's one thing to be like, Kasten Wallace, create offense off of like a role.

It's another thing to be like, we just got to steal run a 40-yard dash and taking out lit pass from Isaiah Hartenstein, who was, by the way, pretty awesome in his game in his own right. But we should talk about Shay because it did feel like he took off in that third quarter as well. and part of it maybe Rob was just like seeing some light finally. He was like the distribution was awesome. We should mention the 12 assists was a career playoff high. I think his career

high overall is 14 and so he was getting it done. He has no space in this game whatsoever. We've talked at length about how Nemhart is basically just living inside of his body at this point, like a parasite. But I thought he was particularly

crafty working in tight spaces, especially hitting his big men off a roll, Hartenstein, Chet, almost with like three guys within like a hair of him. It just felt like he was hitting the pocket passes. He was just making the most of the few opportunities that Andy was given. I mean, he just showed why he has become one of the singular players in the league, like a one-of-one creator that is unlike anybody else out there because he can make the most of those, like, very slim, spatial opportunities.

And I think, you know, you're right that the third quarters were things kind of picked up for the Thunder collectively as an offense because of Shea's playmaking. But he was also kind of the only thing holding it together in the first half when J. Dub, before being totally honest, was kind of invisible, at least on that end of the floor. It's seven assists just in the first half alone. Yeah. Like all of that was kind of coming together in a way that was based off of the very simple and very direct, but also kind of unstoppable premise of put the ball in Shea's hands and good

things tend to happen. Like if that is where you can operate on offense and everything else is where you can operate on defense, you can live and die and come and go with the rest of the variables on the floor. You know, the three-point shooting, some of J-dub's more explosive games versus some of more muted games, some of Chet's more dominant games versus some of his kind of more pedestrian games. But they got enough of those things swinging in their favor in such huge ways and such huge

moments that they were just able to seize control, especially in that third quarter. I just love how deliberate he was. Like, yeah, he got up like 28 shots or whatever it was, but I think that's what it takes to get to Pacer's defense to be like, look, like we'd rather other people shoot the ball than Shea Gilgis Alexander. And, you know, he's just putting the defensive compromising spots. Nemhard guards this guy as well as anybody we've seen in the NBA,

but he still found ways to create opportunities for himself and his teammates. And yeah, man, like, this is what you're supposed to do when you're the superstar, when you're the MVP. It's like, put the ball in his hands and make him make it happen. it wasn't going to be these other guys making it happen in game seven that just wasn't gonna that that just was never going to be the case and so I'm proud of him I'm happy for him that he came out and showed who he was man like this guy is he's one of our best players he's still a young guy he's got a lot of he's going to do a lot more in the league and this is just this is just a dope coming out for him does it put too fine a point on it to suggest that the third quarter the thunder finally adapted to not having haliburton out there Because you wonder if the turnovers were a product of being a little bit looser with the ball. Obviously, the Thunder ratcheted up a bit. But it almost felt like in the first half also the Thunder's game plan offensively might have been to attack Halliburne a little bit more like explicitly than they had in previous games.

And I almost wonder if a young team all of a sudden like you have to change things on a fly. It took like a full half time in order to adjust. I think that was definitely an element. I mean, again, the pace of the game and the rhythm of the game are so different. And some of that starts with what Oklahoma City is doing defensively. Some of it, as you're alluding to, Justin, is like, who are you attacking? What are the actions you had kind of like written on the back of the card? And you were ready to go to at every opportunity, out of every timeout.

I think a lot of that stuff probably gets changed up. A lot of it gets thrown out the window. You saw, I thought it was really interesting that the Thunder started running in particular in the second half, like a lot more very indie, go screen kind of action with J-dub sort of like coming to feign a screen and then just brushing by for She. just get that moment of hesitation, the moment of miscommunication, and then someone like SGA is just going to eat every time you give him that sort of opportunity. Yeah, I love Matherin as a ball handler sometimes.

McConnell, obviously, you know, he's got a decent handle, but like, O.K.C. puts out a bunch of piranhas, man. They're going to make your life miserable. If you're not a Halliburton level handler, pacer, like it's going to be miserable. And, you know, by the time the third quarter came, somebody's like lazy throwing it over, like jump passes, that kind of thing.

It just wasn't working as well. And again, when OKC just knows they can kind of pin their ears back and just rush you, it's just a different animal. Like Halliburton can make you pay for being overaggressive, like his understanding of, of, angles and just his vision of the court, like his vision, um, will make it so that if you're being too aggressive, he's going to find the guy that you're cheating off of.

Like these McConnell and Nemhard and Mathrin aren't those level of sort of court vision guys. And so, yeah, man, they did the right thing by pressuring up on those guys and sort of breaking the damn. Yeah, really was Matherin having his moment in the fourth, T.J. having his moment in the third. But other than that, I can't really remember outside of the rare one play of some of these other guys, including the Thunder Taker who we thought Pascal Seaccom was going to pop in his game. At least I thought he was.

I wonder Rob of just having a little bit more attention on him and knowing that he would have to be the guy to probably power them through this was just a little bit enough, especially when the thunder were rationing up the pressure, as we mentioned. Yeah, it's not what he's best suited for. I did think it was telling, though, in the first half in particular,

the minutes where Pascal was on the floor were the minutes where the Pacers did feel most like themselves, even without Hallibur and where they were kind of holding it together. And you could see when he went to the bench, it's like starting to slip away. The turnover start piling up. They start just getting out of sorts.

And so he was kind of holding them together for a minute alongside T.J. and Nemhart and those guys. And I mean, honestly, it was a really collective effort. I almost don't mean to single out anyone in particular. But he just wasn't able to have the sort of like elevating star in this moment sort of performance. but that's not Pascal Seacom. Like he is the Swiss Army knife.

He is someone who's going to give you a little bit of everything, but he's not going to give you 27 shots like Shate Will. Like that's not his game. It's not how he wants to play. Honestly, even if he had, I don't think it would have been particularly beneficial to the Pacers. Like he's better suited playing this style. They just didn't have the overwhelming offensive element that they normally do,

which is Halliburton's playmaking, feeding all of these other weapons on the floor, Pascal included. Yeah, it just felt like a lot of the magic was that we've seen from some of the insulary guys. It's just like they ran out of pixie dust here. Topin in particular, we talked at length about like all of a sudden he seemed like one of the bash bros coming off the bench.

But like, good God, he had probably his worst games of the finals at the worst time. Yeah. And but we can't be surprised by that, right? When the engine gets taken out, they have to find different ways of being than they've been playing this entire postseason run. Like, it's all connected to me, right? Like, the idea that the guy goes down and everybody just collectively starts taking different pieces of his job, it doesn't really work like that when your role has been so defined

for this entire run. So, you know, I guess people needed to step up, as Bill would say. But, like, it, like, I can't begrudged, you know, Obie Topping. for not coming out and having his best game. Like it's game seven. The Thunder defense is so insanely locked in. And your best setup guy, your best pace guy is not out there. And topping in the best of days is not some initiator creator.

He's finishing plays off. Right. And so, you know, him not being able to rise to the level. I don't begrudge him that. Well, not just your best best set up guy too or your best pace. guy, but you're get out of jail free card. Like all of those traps and those passes over the top that we're talking about that started getting

picked off, guess where they go? They go to OB-top and for ducks. Like that's the natural outlet point. And so losing the mechanism to get out of those dicey situations, I think just killed the flow of the Pacers offense. And Halliburton had made, I guess, like three-threes

before he left the game. He was expanding and stretching that thunder defense out. Which, like, the further they got to out on a court, the more space these other guys have. And now you don't have that pull-up 28-footer, you know, option available to you. So, of course, the court becomes way more constricted. And yeah, it's going to be tough for these other guys to cook, man.

Like, is this hard for me to find reasons to be disappointed in a Pacer's effort, man? Like, these guys gave it everything. Yeah. I mean, Halliburton was pulling up from, like, 30 feet out and hit. him like Steph in the first what five minutes of that game hitting three or four of those and you're right we saw in game six how much just him being able to stretch and orchestrate from far out just added to everybody else's offensive game we should mention just like on the thunder side of this we're talking role players thought dort late was just completely harassing the hell out of guys there's

one series where he had two steals and then he forced the out of bounds play on tj i thought Hartnstein played an awesome overall game in this one, like finishing like physically with touch late or early, excuse me, but just like his ability to orchestrate at his size and like just the amount of like wood that he lays defensively, but still be able to hit guys off a short rolls and like, I think he had four assists in this game.

He was awesome in the middle. Like there was one conduit pass where like he got in the middle and he kicks it out for a three. I thought he was awesome. And then chat late. You had five blocks in this game. game. Once again, it took him until the fourth quarter to finally show up, unfortunately, for the most part, but he did ultimately show up. So I can't fault him too much. I think the Hardinstein part of that in particular, like one of the toughest questions for any

organization, especially one where you're kind of a young, up and coming team is when do you really push forward? When do you start making the big swings in free agency? When do you start trading the guys that you've developed and liked for other players? When do you start trading draft picks? When do you start investing in that stuff? I don't even know that the Thunder of like fully, fully done that. They still have a lot to work with. But the closest that they've come was timing it just right, which was this past summer, getting Isaiah Hardinstein and free agency, trading Josh Giddy for Alex Caruso, two guys who, they don't get to this point without the two of them. And they certainly don't win in the finals without the two of them. It just proved absolutely

instrumental. And I think that they were able to time that perfectly for a bunch of different reasons. The simplest one is like, She became Shea. And then all of a sudden, all of your other needs become a little bit more mood. You don't need. as much creation as maybe you did when you traded for Shay in the first place. J-dub coming into his own as an all-around player was clearly a huge part of that too. And then this sort of collective good, hardworking defense evolved into something historic. And this is one of those areas where I'm watching this title happen right in front of us. Every time this happens, you see the same pattern, which is every other team looks at Nicola

Yokic winning a title. And they're like, where do we get our playmaking big? You know, they watch Steph win a title. like how do we mimic this sort of motion in our offense? Like I don't know how you get a bunch of 24 and 25 and 26 year olds to play defense like this. Like I don't know how to do it. I don't know if it can be done. But clearly the Thunder were able to pull it off.

And so like I don't know what to what extent like a copycat NBA is going to be able to do anything with this Thunder team. Yeah, I don't know if it'll be a copycat NBA, but I think teams need to focus on. Yeah, this is the team with the target on is back now. Right. maybe they don't try to emulate the style of team that the the thunder are but they're like, all right, this is how we should try to maybe go about beating these guys and getting, you know, and gearing basically their player acquisition program around, all right, does this make us better suited to beating the thunder?

And I think that's another thing that's cool about the thunder winning this championship is that they're going to have to defend it next year as the under, undisputed big dog in the league. You know, everybody, they're going to, they're going to get all the newspaper clippings and magazine write-ups and sports center features. And they're going to get all of that all summer. The rest of the NBA is going to have to watch them get all of this praise. And, you know, people are now going to be like, all right, these are the guys we got

to take down now. And it's going to be cool to see them respond to that new role of being the, basically the hunted for the first time for this group. Yeah, we've talked at Lenthal. about the depth of these two teams and the importance of depth, pretty much from the start of the season. It was like earmarked that like this might be a thing and it ended up to the deepest teams in the league. I ended up getting to the finals together. They both arrived at it in different ways. The Pacers made a very considered and quick decision to just build guys around

Tyrese Halliburton, which is why they have so much flow and more ball handling at a time to we wondered where that would come from with the Thunder. The Thunder definitely built around Shea, but I think you would argue that a lot of their role players also fit an archetype what every team in the league is looking for. Those wing defender size type players who have a little bit more to them that they could build over time. And so you're seeing that right now

for the Thunder, bear dividends. Like, they won the title. This is as good as it gets. But throughout the game, I was thinking to myself, like, this is the start of something. And so you're right, Rob, because, like, yes,

they have what every team is after, but it's also going to, hopefully, you would assume, just get better over time because guys like Casein Wallace, even like Caruso having another year in this, system could add a little bit more offensively because I was out there watching this game

tonight. It's a lot of like when Chet isn't hitting, it's a lot of Shay J-dub creation and a lot of guys who are pretty narrow like Dord is moonball threeing like Caruso and a super intelligent player who almost finished a lob dunk in this one like a tip dunk that would have been the best play in the fucking game. But like Chet is you know you have to limit him to like cuts in the baseline and like maybe stretching out the three or Hartnstein is good passing, but, you know, obviously is a big man. And so, like, they're going to add offensive skills on top of this. So it's almost like this growing organism where it's like, oh, like this is Gremlin's one. Like, let's see in Gremlin's three, two to three years from now where these motherfuckers are just like, just have knives on their

hands and they're just like, I don't know, they look like Goro from Mortal Kombat. Well, let me tell you, Grimlins 2 is already fucking bad shit. So I'm ready for the Grimlins 2 version of the Thunder in which Kaysen Wallace becomes pure electricity over the course of that movie. I totally hear you. Like he is in, Kason Wallace is a natural evolution point in terms of right now a very confined role player who over time will probably handle the ball a little bit more.

We'll probably start to push a little bit more. I fully expect that from Chet too. I think right now, as you're alluding to Justin, like it's more cuts, it's more spot up. you're not asking him to create a lot. I think it's fully within his skill set to eventually get to that point. But the stakes were pretty high this season. And now they're going to be high again next season. The title defense is going to be incredibly challenging in its own right.

But you also know you can get there. Like you know for a fact that this team is good enough. And with that comes the freedom to do different kinds of experimentation. And we saw plenty of experimentation with lineups, with roles, with all kinds of stuff, with the thunder and their injuries over the course of this year. But I think developmentally, watching a guy like Chet grow into a different sort of offensive players

going to be really exciting. Figuring how like what happens if Nicola Topich is good? What happens if he comes in and he's like a really good rookie all of a sudden? They're just a team with an embarrassment of riches in terms of the development

in terms of their present tense. That was something that I think crystallized for me watching Chet have the defensive impact that he did in that second half, which you mentioned the five blocks, Justin, apparently a Game 7 NBA Finals record. No one has ever done that before

in a game seven of the NBA finals, that was not a flash of defensive potential. It was a showcase of who he is at this exact second and how he can change the course of a game with his defense. Now we're going to see how that kind of flips to the other side of the ball. And will Chet ever get to the point where he is someone who is expanding what a team can do offensively? Or is he going to be very comfortably an all-MBA level defender who also does some good

stuff on offense? Yeah, everything you guys set up. I'm thinking the same things in terms of their offense is going to become way more sophisticated over time, right? Producers A before the meeting was like, man, it was a lot of just Shea just pounding the hell out of the ball. And to be honest, that was their best option for who this group is right now. But they have so much foundationally to build on top of in terms of Chet, Shea and J. Dub figuring out how to better play off of one another and leverage each other's strengths to make their collective job, their individual jobs easier.

I think the only thing, not the poor cold water or anything like that, but like, you know, it's like cool being Casey Wallace for the first championship. But then people start getting in your air like, you know, if you were on another team, you have a bigger role, right? Disease and more. Yes. You know you could be getting like this, right? You know, like the pecking order, like they limit it.

you, right? Like, you know, like, and I'm not saying case in wildest individual, I'm just saying, like, the kumbaya stuff generally doesn't always last forever. Again, these guys are hyper competitive people, you know, like they want to challenge themselves. They want to see themselves as like upping their stature and status within the game, within the culture. And so that's the only thing. Look, it's early as one championship. We never happened to

No KC before. You're right. Yeah. Listen, you know what I mean? And so that's the only thing about like, oh, they got all this depth. Like, yeah, that's a lot of guys to keep happy. Yep. You know, especially after you get the championships, like, I'm already a champion. I could take this championship DNA somewhere else and beat a man. And, you know, like, that stuff becomes very challenging to deal with.

Obviously, it's a rich person's problem to be like, oh, how do I deal with having all these great talented players? What do you do? You know? But it's definitely something. to think about. You're right. The shuffling of the lineups, being able to take a guy out and start him another game. Like that stuff is, is tough, especially over time. Ultimately, the other guys getting more girls than you at the club. It's like, come on, man. It's tough. Yeah, Chet Stees Caruso, just getting after it. He's like, poof, this fucking guy.

I got to say, though, watching Chet chased around T.J. McConnell reminded me of, like, Rocky chasing after the chicken at times. And, like, There were times where TJ got him, but I have to give check credit, man, just watching him just his mobility and athleticism, just cracking him down and just still be able to stand tall and get some of those blocks. Like, we keep saying it, even though that chat hasn't really had a good finals, like five shots probably in total over the past couple of games. But like, there's something there.

So much there. Yeah. There's so much there. And the proportions there, as you're mentioning just are so unique. Like a guy who's that lengthy can switch like that. Like in the post game, when he was being interviewed by Lisa Salters and literally had to like crouch to have a conversation with her, just kind of like really laid bare the dimensions that we're talking about with this human being. Like you see him next to other centers. You see him next to other NBA players.

It's like, yeah, that's a long athletic player. But he's something really different. He's something really unique even within the context of NBA history. And yes, Victor Webb & Yama casts a long shadow. And I'm sure those guys are going to be dueling for a long time. But there's a lot here for the thunder to work with. of flexibility in terms of tapping into different strategies, different tactics, different lineups.

Like we're going to see over the course of the next couple years, does he need an Isaiah Hartenstein with him on a recurring basis? Or is he going to be a full-time NBA 5? I don't know. But right now he's a full-time NBA champion. Like he just made it here on his terms, as did the rest of these guys. Yep. So OKC ends up being the youngest title winner since the 77 Portland Trailblazers.

And let me tell you, always comes back to Portland. Yeah. There are hats with 77 on them. There's like things are 77% off. Like people, if this is the only title that they get, okay, see, we'll remember this until like all those people die. Uh, so that's one note. Uh, also we should put a final peg in this one. Three teams, four instances previously of 68 wins plus the title, two Bulls teams in 96 and 97, Lakers in 72, sixers in 67. And now the Oklahoma City. thunder in the first year of what could be a pretty dominant run here. And so I don't know, we've been talking about it for a while and we kind of expected this at a certain point,

but like, this is pretty fucking historic. And so I have to wonder like, could we talking about like regular season wins records? Like what's on the table here at this point? I think everything's on the table. Like this could be this, as we've alluded to, the start of something really special and historic and lasting. This feels like, you know, the Warriors in 2015. I'm not. I'm saying they're going to have exactly that sort of dynastic run. And one thing we need to contextualize here is it's just really fucking hard to repeat now with the way that the NBA is set up and you're seeing this parody for a reason. And we've seen just how quickly things can change with one calf strain and one, then one Achilles injury that results. But they have all of that set up for them.

They have a financial outlook that is as accommodating as one could possibly be in today's NBA. And they have a superstar who is doing more earlier than basically in, anyone in his class, certainly, and more than in many players in NBA history. Like, since the merger, guys who have won the title and the MVP before they turn 27, very, very small list. LeBron didn't do it. Michael Jordan didn't do it. If you'll allow me one more blazer comparison, Justin, here's the list.

Bill Walton, number one with a bullet on that list. Tim Duncan, Steph, Janus, and now Shea. Like, quite a launch pad for whatever it is that he is going to become. and whatever it is that the thunder are going to become. Yes, it's all on the table. Definitely, I mean, again, this is already a high effort group. Maybe they, you know, they spend their summer and freaking Turks and Caicos and and Majorca and get fat.

I just have a hard time believing that happens. I see them coming out and wanting to kill people again next year and having an absolutely amazing regular season and just be ready to take. on all challenges. That's, again, that's the fun thing about sports, right? Like, that was as much as I hated the Patriots and, you know, didn't really care for the Duncan Spurs and some of the other dynasties that we've had. Like, that's half the fun is like seeing if anybody could challenge these guys and actually

beat them. And so the thunder trying to make themselves into that type of team that the rest of the sport measures themselves against, that's going to be really exciting to watch as well. So on that note, we should talk about the guy who built this team, won Sam Presti, finally gets his one ring. Was, did this make you want to run out and buy some, like, just clear frame glasses and just make that your new look? No, but I did maybe want to check out some hip-hop jazz.

Oh, yeah. I don't know if you guys saw Pablo's special. This dude dropped a freaking jazz rap album in college, which I thought was just fascinating. Yeah, I've said it before. I wasn't like a skeptic like, oh, is Presti good at his job? But I thought sometimes in the media it would get a little ridiculous about how great this freaking San Presti is.

I'm completely on the opposite side of that. I think this guy is just incredible at what he does in terms of his ability to see a vision, to have a vision that's bigger than one individual thing. It's all of a piece, right? All the kind of guys, the mental makeup, up, the kind of team that he builds organizationally, the culture they're trying to foster. It's all of a greater thing, which I think is really hard to do in professional sports,

especially in this day and age, you know, with soft-ass zoomers and, you know, all of the, all of the guff they get on social media. And like, bro, it is tough to achieve this. And the way he's gone about building this team, like, he deserves out all. ultimate respect and praise for it. Like he's legitimately an incredible executive, man. There are a ton of people in the NBA who can tell you, that guy's going to be good, that guy's not going to be good,

that guy is an actual good shooter, that guy's not an actual good shooter. This guy can guard, that guy can't guard. Scouting is obviously more art than science, but there are a lot of people who are very good at it. The list of people who actually truly see and understand the connectivity of things in the way you're talking about was is not a very long list. and it's a reason why you'll see some executives, a very, very small group of executives

be very successful over and over and over through adaptive philosophy. It's not just, we play this one way, or I only scout this, or recruit this one kind of player, or I only get these certain kinds of guys. Yeah, like lots of general managers have a type that does happen sometimes. But the reason why Sam Presi is successful

is not so different from the reason Rick Carlisle is successful. Like immaculately prepared people who understand how to move and adjust and Bob and Weave with whatever is in front of them opportunity-wise, right? Like, this is where we are in the draft. Here are the range of players available. Not just like who is going to be good, not just best talent, not just best player, but like what is the talent that makes a cogent kind of sense for Thunder basketball?

What is the kind of person who is going to defend the way that we uniquely ask people to defend when they are 22 and 23 years old? That's like a bigger picture mindset that I think the Thunder have fucking nailed. Not just this year, not just last year. But for years and years and years now, it is a comprehensive, cohesive thing there. It's a reason why I do drink the San Presti Kool-Aid a little bit. If you're going to believe in somebody, believe in somebody who has a vision for something. And I think Sam Presti has always had a vision for what he wants the thunder to be.

And it's proven out time and again to be a quite successful vision. I think a lot of people in our business see themselves in Chris Paul because they are type A. and the way that he is able to manipulate things, but often like hold it too tightly, I think speaks to a lot of people that we know. It speaks to me, first and foremost. But also, there are a lot of people, I think, like me, who appreciate the almost logistics porn that happens with the thunder,

the way that things interconnect, the basketball side with the interpersonal stuff, with like the cap management stuff. It all kind of like comes together and press the, I think is the shining example of like building that out and also kind of instituting it across the organization. So there really is top down just like a clear vision, everyone on the same page that like me as someone who is like constantly tracking the trends and how all of these things overlap and come to a head in order to build a championship winning team. It's just like,

it's just so hard to do so many of these separate things to do all of them and get them to coalesce is like it's it's kind of a miracle that it happens every year and so Presti deserves all the respect in the world. He's clearly the best in the business at that. And I mean, this is why they're on the precipice here, right? It's because of Preston. I mean, those miracles are made because players like Shay, like not randomly, they become the MVP through hard work, through talent, through like a natural and singular focus, like become that sort of player. Those miracles are also made because you signed Aaron Wiggins to a below market contract at a time where everyone should have been looking at Aaron Wiggins

and being like, I would love to have that guy. It's locking up Lou Dort into a long-term deal when no one believed in his shot, except the Thunder apparently. And they believe that if they stuck with it and Lou stuck with it, that he over time would net out as a good shooter. And Moonballs be damned, he has. Like, percentage-wise, he has become that sort of shooter and has always been that kind of defender.

And so it really is the sort of like, yeah, top-down approach in which you're getting all of the big picture things right, but you are getting those logistical details. You are nailing down not just like let's grade this transaction, but how do all these transactions fit together on a sheet in a way that makes actual lasting financial sense? Having said that though, there's also something to be said about a team that fucking takes the table, flips it over and just gives everyone the bird. And that's basically what the Pacers did. So I have to give them a salute because this postseason has been absolutely magical. Magical. Watching every single.

single round them severe expectations. Basically throughout the finals, I feel like every two games, we were shocked by the fact that they were still having this in them. This is one for the ages. The fact that, like, I'm still, my head is spinning, trying to grasp where we ended up with this team. And so I just have to give one last big old salute to this team because we spend an entire season trying to convince ourselves that we know what will happen.

Right? The NBA, more than most leagues, kind of met. out as the regular season predicts. But the fact that the Pacers completely blew that up is exactly why you watch sports, right? But we watch all those games for something thrilling, unpredictable happening. And the Pacers did that unlike anything I think I've ever seen covering basketball in almost two decades.

It's just a real shame you were listening to podcaster Rob Mahoney on a podcast in like January. You know, like you could have been ahead of this stuff, but I don't know what to tell you. The championship pie. The worst thing is like we cheated them out of their pie. If anything, yeah, right. We cheated them out of their championship five for that episode. But yeah, and, you know,

Halliburton's not going to play next year. But, like, from what I've seen this postseason, man, if any team could weather that storm and still put out a more than respectable basketball product, I think it's the Pacers. I think they could still be a good team next year.

I don't think they'll make another finals run without Halliburton. He's their best player. However, like, I think they could be just fine in the regular season. They've got a distinct style of play. They can try to replicate some of it. They're not going to duplicate what Halliburton brings. But, yeah, this run, the moments they delivered from round one, two, three, and in the finals,

like, I'm talking about some of the most improbable, crazy, just absolutely fun NBA playoff moments of my life in one freaking solitary postseason. dude, like, you know, the craziness with the Knicks game one of this finals, delivering a freaking buzzer-beater, like, against Yonis. Like, it was just crazy, man. And, yeah, just gained a shit ton of respect. Like, you know, I don't, like, we all knew OKC was really talented. Everybody thought they had a decent enough chance to win a championship. You know, favored in the West, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like, they kind of fulfilled their promise that everybody expected of them. You can't say that about the Pacers. Like, nobody saw this coming. Like, a straight-up finals run. Incredible. Game seven against a 68 win team. And even then, it's like your best player has to go down for you to get, like, actually beat me. You know, like, bro, hat tip to this crew.

I thought it was, you know, obviously anytime there's a huge injury in the NBA, you'll see other players come out of the woodwork, you know, with shock, with condolences, with prayers. with prayers up, all those things. I did think, you know, like, maybe this is me seeing a signal in the noise a little bit, but like I thought it was very telling that some of the first guys out were the Knicks. It was like Kat and Josh Hart and Jalen Brunston. It's like, I think there is an admiration for Tyrese Hallibor and certainly an admiration

for this Pacer's team. Like, how do you play against Aaron Neesmith? And that be like, that guy fucking has got something. You know, like he's got a kind of juice that we want all professional athletes to have. not just NBA players, not just role players, anybody in any line of professional athleticism, like you want that level of fight in them. That's who the Pacers are. It's who they've become.

And this was a team that for years and years was not athletic, was more of a finesse outfit, did not have these kinds of dogs. And now they have found like a perfect meshing of all of those things, of skill, of motion, of fluidity, of all of that force, of all of that enthusiasm, of all of that buy-in. Like, you know, everything that we said about the Thunder defense and getting those guys to play that way, you're right, wise, that like the seven seconds left suns is a pretty easy sell. The Golden State Warriors kind of motion style offense is not necessarily an easy cell. We've seen lots of players come to motion systems and they just like flunk out because they don't really know what it takes to do that. You cannot say that about any Indiana Pacer.

Like those guys will cut and move with no intention of ever getting the ball because they see what their role in it is supposed to be. And we're going to see how that evolves without Tyrese Halliburton probably for all of next season, if it does turn out to be the Achilles. And with that, it sucks. Like, the Pacers are going to be on the board in a different kind of way than a reigning Eastern Conference champion would be. And we should talk about sort of the greater instability in the east, which is getting more and more rickety by the second, it seems. But, you know, there were also calls earlier in these playoffs for Andrew Nemhard, like, how cool would it be if he was running an offense? Like could he be a lead point guard? We're about to find out.

And he's going to have the sort of developmental chances and opportunities that he would never have playing alongside Tyreys Halliburton full time. And so we're going to see Ben Matherin. He got to try to get paid next season. Well, he is certainly going to try. And we have seen the part of him that awakens when he feels he is needed. And clearly he's going to be needed a lot for the foreseeable future in terms of that scoring.

And there's lots of guys with the Pacers who are in those circumstances. And I can't wait to see what they've got next season without Tyrese in the mix. Yeah, it's a bummer for a variety of reasons, first and foremost because of Halliburton and where he is in his career and where he was expecting to go next season. This was supposed to be the start of something, and we expected the Pacers to walk into next season and be the presumptive favorites in the East. They earned that right. And it seemed like they were going to be on a run similar to in some ways to the Thunder. It will be a different type of follow-up for them. I guess, if anything, it will be a stress test for this system that Carlisle has built to see if Nemhart and all these other guys can plug the hole until.

Hill Hullburn, let's cross our fingers, can get back later in the season, maybe in the playoffs. And we'll see from there, but I'll also have to see what happens with Miles Turner. He's a free agent. Will he look elsewhere now because next season might be a little bit more mixed? We'll see about that. But the Pacers have something. And we didn't expect that minus Rob as recently as two months ago when we started this journey in the postseason. So it's a miracle.

I'll say it again. It's just like it's a fucking miracle where we ended up here. Can I circle back to two elements of the Thunder celebration I would like to ask you guys about? One is Shea Gilgis Alexander the first NBA champion to ever do heart hands from the podium? Is that an NBA first? Definitely. With shoes around his neck? I like the shoes around the neck.

I kind of like that. I got to be honest, it worked for me. Bro, did you guys see this? Rachel Nichols tweeted Plenty of celebrating and cheering going on in the Thunder locker room But if you're looking for a crazy champagne-soaked celebration Well, it hasn't happened so far

Quote They're not old enough to drink Sam Presti just told me I mean they are literally But Emotion You think they're going to Brahms and getting some milkshades Instead and going to bat

I hate the idea that these guys are going to go get frozen in yogurts and not go to Miami or Vegas to celebrate. Like that just pisses me off as a notion, but whatever. What do I know? I'm a washed up, you know, damn their 40 year old. I think they're just doing a bit, you know?

It's just, it's no different than... I pray to God they're doing a bit. They're just highly talented athletic nerds. Yeah. What more could we empathize with than that? But... Minus the talent in the athleticism. Yes. I have to ask Waz specifically, Mark Dagnall, on the championship podium for his

interview. You know, you've discussed his kind of like even keeled nature and how you wish you could see some fracture in it. And I have to say, I thought the mask slipped ever so slightly. And it looked like we might get Mark Dagnall actually breaking down and showing some emotion. I'm curious if that impacted you at all. Did you, did you react any way to it? No, the whole team like legitimately, you could tell, like they are elated to have achieved this. As a group, they seem to like each I wasn't surprised that Dagnol actually had a human moment after winning a freaking championship. I mean, like, God damn, what a low bar to freaking to go over.

Like, yeah, man, he definitely showed some feelings and showed some humanity. I'd just like to see all of these guys doing that more often. Bring the people in, folks. Please. It's surprising to see a Yukon grad in touch with his emotions? It's shocking. got to say. Based on my personal proximity to Yukon grads, I'm not familiar with this concept. But we are winners. I'll say that. That's reliable. All right. Why don't we flip now to a shining

example of a player who has been stuck on perpetually unhappy teams for what seems like half of his career at this point, because before the finals happened, Kevin Durant finally got traded. What's funny is before last pod, which was on Friday, we talked about like, oh, should we talk about certain things. The Laker Sale just happened. I was like, Katie, thing. I don't really feel a certain way about it, if anything, and it almost made me feel like J-Lo getting married again, where it's just like, these things just kind of happen. You know, like wake a week when it sticks for longer than two to three years. But the one thing we did talk about was like, I don't know if it's going to affect the race that much. But Rob, you said the one team where it would would be the Houston.

in Rockets, which is where he ultimately ended up. Are you surprised first and foremost? This is where we ended up. And what do you think about the return overall? I'm more surprised by the return than the where. This is not the most overwhelming offer I've ever seen. I understand all the caveats with Kevin Durant. I understand that he's someone who's going to be due for a big money extension,

that some franchises might not be super eager to pay at his age. All of that is totally fair. Still Kevin Durant. Like, he's still one of the best individual scores we've ever seen. he's still coming off of a historically efficient season. And I think in this case, he lines up so perfectly with exactly what the Rockets need that I am hard pressed to say this is not like a meaningful move. Like I think there's lots of teams out there who could have traded for Katie and it'd be like,

okay, he makes them better. But does he fix the Miami Heat and everything that is ailing that team? No, he does not. Does he fix the Houston Rockets and the slog that we saw of their half-court offense in the playoffs? maybe not every bit of it, but a damn well, a lot of it. And I think of the version of Houston that we saw in the playoffs against Golden State with Kevin Durant, granted minus Dylan Brooks, minus Jalen Green,

who your mileage may vary on, that is a really dangerous team. And it's a really dangerous team, even to an opponent like the Thunder, who just proved everything that they've got over the course of a championship run. But I'm looking at the rockets in a different light. I don't know how you couldn't adding a player of that caliber,

and specifically a go-to half-court score of that caliber for a team that just did not have one. I definitely think they got better. There's no two ways about it. And, you know, all that it needs being what they are is just for me, it feels like KD is going to be carrying this offense. And he's 37. Like, I don't know if that's what you want to do. And I don't know that Houston feels like a team that's going to score efficiently against O.K.

in the playoffs next year. That doesn't feel like that's what happened today. But I could be wrong. I'd love to be proven wrong. Maybe they play OKC in some hyper competitive series that will love. I didn't get, that wasn't my first reaction. It's just the age is like, man, when you just stare at that number, it's like 37. Like, that's old, bro.

And so we'll see. That's us again. Old to be carrying that office. And, you know, again, like, they have young guys that presumably are getting better, you know, like Jabari and, you know, hopefully Reed Shepherd can actually sniff the court this year. And, you know, obviously Shangoon was the sort of anchor of the offense this year. Like, they have guys that are capable of improvement, but they're going to have to, like, Katie's going to need help to springboard this offense. It's not just going to be him by himself, like in the good old days when he was an MVP kind of guy. And so that's why I'm like, yo, it's a great move for the Rockets.

I do wonder if it does just elevate them from first round exit to the Warriors who, like, we love them as a team. But like, I don't know. Did we think like Golden State was like some sick team? I don't know. I don't know. I'm happy for them. But I'm like, I don't know how much better ultimately they're going to be. See, that's kind of why I like it, that they practically swapped the go-to.

score a role from Jalen Green to Kevin Durant that even in his old age can get some stuff done. I think he would have probably been at least third team all NBA if he had played enough games in order to be eligible. Definitely would have been in the mix at the end of the season there. And while Dylan Brooks has been helpful for that team, I ultimately always saw him as sort of a starter pack until they could turn it over to some of the young developing guys. They're basically on the same track, but they're just handing over the duties of score. forward to a much more accomplished, like, steady hand. And I think the good of this is that you're giving more to the Tarin-Bari

combination at the four. One of them will presumably start. I think Javier will probably get the first crack at it. But all your younger guys are still rearing. And if anything, the young guys that got benched to the point where they weren't even playing, Cam Wittmore and Reed Shepard in particular, now they get to be integral parts of the rotation, or at least cracks at it. We'll see if Imi Adoka can bring himself to play Reed Shepard,

actual minutes considering his defense. So I like it in that regard that they're still on track. And then like the big like long term thing is like what if they just saved all their powder for Janus or anything else down the road where they could easily flip any of their better young guys like Shengoon or or Jabari or Cam or Reed? Like all those guys can be packaged together with the 90 million picks they have in their coffers for a Janus. And so like I don't know.

I like how much this just bolstered what they have. as opposed to just completely rewrote the trajectory of the team. Yeah, I think what you said about kind of swapping out the first options, Justin, like, Jalen Green and Katie basically take the same number of shots. One of them is just much better at taking shots than the other. So I think, I think, yes, Katie in the playoffs will be stretched a lot. Like, if he can get there healthy and be the sort of half court influence that they need him to be, that will be an incredibly high usage role.

The regular season, though, the Rockets are a powerhouse offensive. rebounding team. They want to get out and run, not unlike the thunder and forced turnovers. They want on Man and Tari like creating, like wreaking havoc. And they're going to alleviate some of that pressure in a way that, to be honest, Phoenix never could. Like the Suns always felt like the stars kind of trying to hold up a team that didn't really work because they never really had the connective tissue and the surrounding pieces to make it make sense. Houston has all that stuff. I almost hope, Justin, that they don't make a Janus type swing or kind of swing for another start.

are in the near future. Like, I want to see the development of this young group who has just been missing a Kevin Durant type to sort of complete the picture. Like, I hope they get a couple of cracks at this to sort of figure it out and fine tune. And for someone like Amman Thompson, for example, to blossom into whatever the hell he's going to be. I honestly have no earthly idea, but I can't wait to find out. Yeah, that's the X factor to me.

Like, how much better offensively, specifically, because he's already an insane all-world defender. Like, how much better is he going to be a defense? Like, it's the offense that we want to see him take a jump. If him in Jabari take a jump, then, you know, I'll be singing a different tune next season, right? But ultimately, we know what KD's going to be for this team. And I don't think if those guys remain at the level that they've been offensively, the young guys, that that's going to be quite enough. Now, if they develop and show themselves to be like, yo, especially at men, like, I'm an all-star kind of player,

then shoot. Then now we, you know, we kind of cooking with fish grease. Yeah. I think Shen Goon is going to be kind of in the spotlight here a little bit. You would hope after kind of a pretty disappointing finish to that first round series, he had like a moment or two, but ultimately just couldn't score at the lever that they needed in order to get out of that first round series. They probably should have won that series against the wars considering Steph's injury. I think he's going to be the guy where it's like, all right, we got you KD. can it unlock some of your special qualities. And he did have an all-star season.

And to his credit, the defense was light years better than it had. It's funny when you look at him versus Jabari. Jabari is often talked about it as like, the young guy, we'll see what's happening, but they're literally the exact same age from the same draft. And so, but ultimately, can the wing defenders do enough in order to not expose him as a rent protector because it's not going to be his forte?

We'll see about that. And so, like, I think that is a big question for them. But you're right. Like they still have options. It is going, but they're like almost using this as another petrious season just with Kevin Durant kind of weight in the wings. One thing I will say is in addition to that, I like the Spurs as an option specifically for the same reasons. I like the Rockets where it's like Katie is glomming on to an established team with an identity that is going to be able to take more off of his plate. And at this stage of his career, he should be in the, not necessarily Chris Paul at the Spurs, but Chris Paul with the son's era of his life cycle.

where he's like just feeding the rest of these teams and he's showing up when you need him to, not every goddamn night like he had to be on both ends with the Suts. Yeah. I mean, the bad news with either of those options and especially with the way things turned out with Houston is you're still in the Western Conference. You still got to deal with the Oklahoma City Thunder.

You still got to deal with the 10 teams who were ahead of the Sons in the standings last season or I guess now the nine because you joined the Houston Rocket. So a lot of that group is going to expect to come back better. And there are some question marks there. Like what is Denver do with their off-season? and there's a lot to sort out. You know, like ultimately, what state

will some of these teams be in with their injuries? Will the Lakers be able to add meaningful improvements to their roster? Who knows? But I think a lot of those teams have reason to believe that they will be better.

And so the Rockets coming back and winning around 50 games again is probably not going to be enough to be the second seat. Like, you're going to have to actually take a big step forward. And this is one way you do it, is you get a big boy superstar

who has done all of this stuff before. And I think also meaningfully can guide some of these younger players on defense. And Kevin Duran is an incredibly versatile, incredibly accomplished player who has had success in all kinds of systems. I think he has a lot to teach these guys. Contrary to how kermudgeoning, his reputation may suggest that he is or difficult his reputation may suggest he is.

Not to say those things aren't true in their own right, but they come with his other stuff too, which is the wealth of experience that someone like Katie has at his disposal. It's because his curmudgeoning doesn't mean he doesn't love them, you know? It means that he's just being hard on them because he sees more in them that they don't see in themselves. I love you too. Wise, if you're looking at the West, though, just quickly,

if we're seeing the Thunder, maybe on a tier on themselves, like where do the rockets stack up against, say, the Lakers, the nugs, the clips, the wolves, the warriors. Like, are they in that second tier, are they in the third tier behind some of those teams? I mean, if everything breaks right, then they're right there with Denver as the teams that can give OKC problems, right? I don't see the Lakers as being in that.

Maybe they'll have some incredible offseason. You know, my man, Rob Pinckett just got re-up. So, you know, he's such a good executive. He might just have just a great offseason. But, yeah, man, the West is so muddled. And I think matchup specific as well. I think Golden State is going to be really good next year, you know, health permitting. But talent on paper.

you know, outside of OKC, they can say they're as talented as any team in the entire Western conference. And that's just an amazing position to be in, to be honest. Rob, do you feel any sort of way about the West? A lot to see now.

We have a whole offseason to go through, but as it stands. I think the Rockets feel like a second tier team to me. A lot of these teams are going to be in a similar place. And this is an off season. We're going to get into it, the full kind of look ahead,

free agency and coming out of the draft and all those things. but a lot of these teams are one or two role players away. You know, like maybe they have their core, but they need, you know, the lot of threat big. They need the wing who can play playoff minutes. They need the real backup point guard because their starter is getting a little older. Like those are what a lot of the needs look like.

You know, obviously there are the teams out there too who would love to get another star, but I think a lot of these things can sort of be accomplished with the limited market that's out there, which is not the most loaded free agent class you've ever seen, but has a lot of good work-a-MBA players who I think, could make sense for some of these groups. Well, the Sons are one of the teams that I think has a lot to figure out this offseason, especially after this trade. I'll give them this.

I'm going to play devil's advocate right off the jump here. Like, it was always sunk cost that they wouldn't get anywhere near what they paid for KD. Like, I see a lot of people comparing the two trades. There was no way. They were even getting half of that, 75% of that. I will say, I will give them credit at the very least, in addition to getting their own pickback, which is number 10 in this upcoming. draft. We'll see what they get out of that. I think that range will get them a pretty decent player. It seems

like they at least targeted players that don't box them in long term. Because if you had gotten back, for instance, Julius Randall and gave him a new shiny extension for four or five years, then you're the Julius Randall show with Devin Booker. And I don't think that's where you would want to be. At the very least, you have Jalen Green on a two plus one contract. We'll see if they re-spend him somewhere else. Dylan Brooks, whatever. He does what he does until you need to be a team and then he goes on to another team right he also is on a shorter term declining contract bradley beale is on a one plus one finally they keep leaking reports as if they're going to get rid of him like anyone plus one meaning so he's got two years left on his deal because he's picking

that option not be real about that one which is still better than where he was previously but like sure they are they have they're not boxed in for five years at the very least it's like the next two years are going to be probably pretty painful. Yeah. But then they might be able to come out of it. That's myself. Do you guys, does it convince any of you guys? Come out of it with what?

Because they don't own any of their future picks. Like, so these couple years of being bad, they're going to be, I think, not very good at minimum. Maybe they're able to strive for a certain kind of mediocrity. But like, where is the upward momentum here? Like, where are you getting the vault into the next star who's going to play with Devin Booker or the next promising prospect? like where's that guy coming from? And the thing that's tough is that like there's just no free agency anymore, right?

Like if they could be like, look, we're gearing up for a year, whatever, for free agency, because we're going to get some big player. No, you're not. Every player just signs extension. So it's like the cab space. Like, you know, you can use cap space to get stuff from teams like renting out your cap space and teams getting off of guys facilitating trades. Like, they can take that approach, but that's like a patience and a like, like a methodical approach that I don't know that Matt Ishvia has the makeup to endure.

So I don't know. I don't know. I ultimately agree with you guys. I think they're in for tough sledding. I would be looking to get rid of Devin Booker for whatever reason. He seems like he wants to. He's a son for life. Yeah, exactly. And so I think it's incumbent on them to at least try it. But at the very least, this gives them more wiggle room than instantly importing a guy who's going to be saddling him for the next couple of years. Maybe you swing green into a first and you get a first back that way. Maybe you swing Brooks if he plays well enough to a contender that just like needs a three indie wing at the trade deadline. I don't know. I'm trying to put like a brave face on this. But that's where we're at with the sons. Like you're just reaching because they most likely are going to be like one of the five to.

of seven worst teams in the NBA next year. I just like this new rosy Justin Barrier. Just looking for the sunny side. I'm always trying to look at the angle. Glass half full, huh? It's true. Mr. Optimism. Mr. Bright side.

How do you know, I actually take the more optimistic side of thing, if only to play devil's advocate, more than you guys realized, I think you were just, you were anchored in your beliefs, unlike me, was looking to explore new ideas.

Mr. Flexibility. Okay. I love it. Like Stephen Hawking out here. Drawing on the board. Love it. And also, like, all these people saying, oh, the hall was terrible. Katie's 37.

He's got one year left on his deal. There's no leverage. They have no leverage. And everybody knows that there's no fixing it. They can't credibly say, oh, no, we're going to be completely fine with KD coming back next to you. No. Like this was the best they could do and I thought I was like pretty

decent man like it was fine. This is really I fully acknowledge that they don't have to leverage but also I just don't like any of the stuff that they got really as like you don't like the number 10 pick? It's fine. You're not a pick said? Not that kind of pickset. Not that kind of pick said. We're about five seconds. That's Jay Crowder money right there. That's like what you gave up to swap Chris Paul for Brad Beal in addition to four first round pick swaps or whatever.

I support them replenishing some of the picks that they've sent out in all of these other transactions. But here's what it comes down to. Like if you're going to trade Kevin Durant, I want one thing that I feel really good about. It doesn't have to be a great all around package. It doesn't have to hit all the boxes that you want for trading a superstar because, yes, he is the age that he is. And yes, he's on the contract that he's on. And yes, he has all the Kevin Durant-shaped problems that we know and love.

I just want one thing. And that one thing could have been Reed Shepard. if you're a believer in Reed Shepard. That one thing could have been Cam Whitmore. If you're a believer in Cam Whitmore, I'm just seeing like Jalen Green, a player that I don't like very much, and it has proven out to have not much of a trade market.

And maybe that will change. Maybe they're going to flip Jalen Green into something magnificent in a month. I will believe it when I see it. I just wish they would have gotten back one thing that feels like, okay, here's the tent pole of this transaction that I can feel confident about. The tent poll is the 10th pick, Rob.

That's what they're going to tell their franchise. They're going to be like, Did you just watch the NBA finals? J-dub was the 12th pick or 14th pick or whatever the hell he was. She was a late, you know, lottery pick. We're about to get our Shay or J-dub this summer, Rob. That's what she's not realized. That's on his own.

That's right. J-Dub and Shea are going to carry water for mid-first-round picks for a long time. What we do. Do you know who that number 10 pick belonged to originally, by the way? Well, it's It's not the son's own pick, isn't it? It's the son's own pick. Oh, yeah, yeah, of course, yeah.

This has gone all the way around and back. So it is a real cruel last, like, dagger twist to be like, oh, yeah, you could have your own pick back. That's what you get for all that hassle over Kevin Doria for two years. The KD thing, that was never going to work. Also, the fact that they ended up getting another shooting guard is fucking hilarious. You were already overloaded at one position, and you traded Kevin Durant for another guy at that exact position.

No, because Jalen Green or Bradley Bittler, wholly capable of playing the one. Everybody knows this is true. I want to speak something into existence right now. If Jalen Green, Bradley Biel, and Devin Boker are all on the roster and healthy for the first day of the regular season, the Phoenix Sun's regular season, we as group chat need to go and cover it in person.

Like that I need to see it. I need to see it. I need to experience it. Every time a guy just jacks up or pull up three. You're not going to detect that over the broadcast. Yeah, can we get like a booth in like the stands like they do for the finals? We'll be like live on the scene. Jalen Green just took his 13 three from about half court.

He's one for 13 on the game. Have the sons hired a coach yet? They have. Yeah. Jordan Ott. Yep. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

So they're leaning younger. I don't have much hope. Good luck. Or the president of the Phoenix signs. We're going to find out. I guess you have options. So there's something. All right.

Let's wrap it there. That's it for the season, brothers. Crazy. We're on to the off season, including on Thursday. Rob's favorite time of year, y'all. That's right. The off season, like, do you have to wait to talk about Katie? Here's the thing.

We're doing that in the second half. half of this pod. We have to talk about the title game first. You have to wait. I appreciate you telling me to hold my horses. With the record, I don't mind the actual offseason. I just don't want to talk about the offseason in January.

That's what I don't want personally. So now that we're here, guess what? We're here together. And I have to say, it's been a fucking treat, you guys. This has been such a fun season. I'm so glad we get to do this. I'm so thankful for Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz to have been rocking these late nights with us all throughout the playoffs.

And honestly, for the groupies out there, too, you guys have been showing up in ways big and small all throughout this season. The inbox has been flooding. I appreciate it sometimes. Sometimes I don't. The message is really very in there, but some of them are really great. Variables just based off of the emails. Oh, yes.

I mean, honestly, here's the thing. Should we outsource new variables music stings for next season? Is that a thing we should do? Do we have a, like, a music contingent? like we got like artists in the in the listenership who do you think our listeners are was i don't know accountants and dentists i like to think that someone out there is doing dental surgery with their earbuds in and it's just us talking about the cleveland cavaliers let's talk to daniel eck let's get like uh let's get chikira out here something okay Spotify cares prove it

uh all right so we'll be back Thursday recap and some stuff that happens on night one of the NBA draft. Hopefully there will be a lot of trades because we don't wish about the draft prospect, but we'll figure it out on the fly. We'll talk to you then. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Excuse me.