The Ringer NBA Show - The Top 25 Players of the 2019-20 Season Thus Far | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 11, 2019

We run down our lists of the 25 best NBA players so far this season, including Giannis Antetokounmpo and James Harden as solo shows, but also Anthony Davis and LeBron James as well as Kawhi Leonard and Paul George as duos in Los Angeles. Hosts: Justin Verrier and Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I think that was unpredictable. That's a really tough look for Trey Young. Not a good look for our guy, although, as you'll find out, he did make both Charks and Eyes. Top 25 players list, we'll get to that a little bit later. But first, get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected. Talk to a State Farm agent today about combining your home and auto insurance. The Bringer Ambien show is also brought to you by DrinkWorks Home Bar by Kurek, much like a premium espresso machine, but it makes cocktails instead.

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and Illinois with more states available for pre-seal today at drinkworks.com. Basketball is very good. The Warriors can still turn it around. Coach's challenges are actually good. The Pelicans are more fun without Zion. Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is the group chat. I am Justin Verrier.

And joining me on the line, the Devante Graham to my Terry Rozier. It's Jonathan Charks. What's up, buddy? I'm going to go deeper cut and say you're the Frank Mason to my Devonter Graham. Is that better or worse than Terry Rozier? So Frank Mason was ahead of Devante at Kansas, for like three years.

And Devonte is playing off Frank Mason. He kind of held him back. Now they're in the NBA and Frank Mason has a two-way contract of Milwaukee and Devante's blowing up. Wow. So you really just want to dunk on me is what that comes down to.

I'm saying is I have a new editor now, Justin. I'm flourishing. That's true. And also joining us looming in the background, Bobby Wagner, filling in for Isaac Lee, who was filled in last week

by Jim Cunningham. What's up, Bobby? What's going on? Isaac, where's he at? I don't know. He's in wherever people in Star Wars, are in. Is he big-timing you because you're just Terry Rozier? I guess so. Everyone is just like

looking past me and just trying to find the next Devante Graham. He's definitely big-timing us for sure. I mean, that's pretty clear. Well, I mean, he is pretty big time now. He has like multiple hit records at this point. Conspiracy theory, his birthday was this week. Maybe he's still recovering. Wow. It's tough. Just kidding. He covered for me yesterday. I'm miss mesh. Thanks, Isaac. Okay. So today, we are going to go through what has become a little bit of an annual tradition, both on the group chat podcast and on the ringer.com. We tomorrow, as a staff, we're going to put out our top 25 players list

of the first 25-ish games and a little peek behind the curtain, 25-ish. That is an editorial trick for, I can do this whenever, because it doesn't necessarily have to be on the 25th game. But we are going to do that as a staff. You'll see our aggregate rankings on the site tomorrow.

Really interesting stuff there because also our staff is bigger than in years past, And so I think you got a lot of different perspectives and opinions. And I think it's an interesting thing to check out. But before that, we're not going to blow the staff's ranking, but we're going to go specifically through charks and minds our individual rankings. I think there are some interesting kind of debates that came up and some differences of opinion. And we'll explore all that.

And then Bobby will chime in with Evan Fournier talk when is appropriate. I think so while the list in and of itself created a lot of debate and specifically the back hack of it, I think there are a lot of split opinions. I don't know if anybody has a really good feel of the league outside of the top 10 maybe. But number one was almost a unanimous pick across our site. I think there was only one person who didn't pick this guy. And that is Janice and Ted Accompo. Charks, was this an easy selection for you at number one? Yeah, I thought so. Just the way, it seems like the bucks are even more reliant on Janus this year without Brogden.

And they're absolutely smoking the whole league. I think they have the best record, the best net rating. They're just dominant on both ends of the floor. And he's putting up numbers you really haven't seen. So right now he's at over 30 points, over 13 Borge, over five assists. And he's the first guy since Will Chamberlain. And whenever you can say that, that's something. Right. So the first is Will in 1965-66. So what is that? Like 50 years? Fifty-four years, I think. It's pretty incredible. And like if you're the main like log line on your case for MVP is you won it last year and you're better in almost every way, it's really hard to argue that. And like the bucks have come up and pretty much they've papered over Middleton's absence. They've worked other guys in there without Malcolm Brogden.

Charks' best friend. And they're still just dominant. They're writing a 15-game win streak into tonight's game. That's Wednesday into New Orleans. And Janus isn't going to play in that game. We just found out, according to Shams Sharania, because of a sore quad. But I would still favor them in a game against New Orleans without Janus, which goes to show just like how good of a team they've assembled around him

and how much better they become with Janus. What Charks, I guess, is the most interesting thing to you about the progression Janus is made from last year's MVP to this season? I think the way is being used. So really, for me, with Janus, it goes back to that conference finals last year when Kauai kind of took him out of that series. And I think that was like the pivotal moment in his career, almost. I think that was like his first real, I mean, everyone thought you go to the finals that year. that was his first real failure. And he's come back,

and I think he's really kind of changed his game to respond to what happens. I mean, the most obvious change is the jump shot. So he's shooting five threes a game this year. And it's not like before where it was kind of hit or miss, but every game is getting threes up. He's had three games born and eight three-pointers.

Like, he's really just taking the shot every single time it's there for him. And here's a crazy number. He's actually shooting a higher percentage from three than Brooke Lopez. Jesus. That's incredible. I mean, Brooke is struggling this year, but it's still kind of a wild stat.

It's just really surprising because I think the one argument I was making over the summer against the case that Janus will hit another level next season. I think people looked at his age and he just turned 25, I believe, last week. And I think they assumed that he would keep progressing from here. The three-point shot was one of the big reasons, but just overall in general. And my case was always like, we just can't expect guys to just when they're already the MVP to hit another level. I think it was just, it was a lot of just reliance on just trajectories being linear and just constantly being exponential growth.

He is far outseated any of that and has made me look very dumb because he seems to get better just like by the game. I think the really interesting thing about him, which showed last year but it's showing even more, it seems like he really thrives and is driven by the idea of stepping on people's throats, which is weird because our first image of, him was of this guy who likes smoothies and he is adorable and says weird things and he has this really kind smile and all that other stuff. And then like he's kind of just while maintaining that sort of personality just become really just all about business. Like even the

other day when Blake Griffin kind of stepped over him and was being a dick, you could see that Yon wanted to react but he was also above that. And there's just like this kind of simmering like I'm going to dunk on you every single time I get, like, approach to him that I can really appreciate this season. Did you get to see the Clippers game on Friday? I saw some of it. And that's another example, right? Because they just blew them off the court.

Yeah. First off, it's crazy that game wasn't on national TV. We were talking about the NBA's ratings last week. You have Yonnas versus Kauai, maybe the biggest game with the season. And that's on league pass. But they'll put the bucks and the pelicans on national TV. So, last one here nor there. But in that game, Janus, he just came out ready to kill.

It was really interesting. So that one game, they had Kauai. They had Paul George. And the buck just blew him off the floor. And then at one point in the third quarter, Yonis actually guarded Kauai. And that was something that he didn't do last year, really, in the playoffs. So Kauai kind of guarded Yonis and Yonis hit off the ball on defense. But this year was like, okay, no, Janus is bigger and faster than Kauai.

Let's put him on Kauai. Let's kind of take the initiative. Let's kind of push the action. And it really just seemed like none of the Clippers could do anything on him. When the Clippers had this great defensive team, but then this seven-foot guy is just kind of scoring a will on him. Right. And that's something that you have pointed out in past articles, right?

That Kauai being able to switch on to Janus was like the prime example of why Kauai is so valuable in this day and age. And almost is like if you want to trace back to the point where he really perhaps like took over as the best player in the league, it was doing that and being able to do that, right? Yeah, it's that versatility. It's that to me, what I remember that series, it reminded me a lot of 2011. That was when Derek Rose won the MVP. And then that was Heat Bulls' 2011 conference finals.

And the Bulls win the first game. And LeBron's like, all, enough of this. I'm going to guard Derek Rose. And so in the fourth quarter of the rest of that series, LeBron guarded Rose on top of scoring like a billion points. And that's like the best player in the league can do. So he can kind of dominate on both ends of the floor. And that's where I think Yanis is moving.

to because the other thing he did in that Clippers game that was pretty fascinating. At one point in the fourth quarter, they had Janus at the five guarding Montres Herald. Right. Which is important because all of a sudden, the Lou Williams Montres' trail pick and roll is over. Because he's not going to want to pick and roll to have

Lou Williams going against Janus. That's stupid. Yeah. That is also where when we were doing this exercise, when we were voting on the top 25, the scales really tipped toward Janus. Because obviously Hardin is going to put up gaudy offensive numbers. LeBron is putting up peak LeBron numbers.

We'll get to that later on. Anthony Davis also has been a monster on the defensive end and also just playing better perhaps than he ever has in his career. But Janice has a very credible case for a defensive player of the year on top of having these offensive numbers that are Wilts Chamberlain-esque. And so it's really tough when you're looking at the whole body of work and we're in this era where like at the very least the public is much more away of the two-way effect of a certain player, Kauai being the prime example of that.

it's hard not to look at someone who is potentially at the very least top three offensive player in the NBA, probably the best even, if you look at the total package. And then also say he's the best player on defense. It's tough to really argue with that case. The number that jumped out to me when I was kind of digging into it,

so this year, Janus has played 80 minutes without any big men on the floor. So without any of the Lopez twins, without even DJ Wilson or Eliasova, The bucks are plus 33 in those 80 minutes. And that, to me, is what they didn't do last year. Yeah. And I've been waiting for like four years for that.

It's like, you know Yannis could play center. He's big enough. Let's go ahead and do that. Playing with four perimeter guys and just blow teams off the floor. And that's what I really want to see in the playoffs this year is those lineups. Yeah. So overall, his effective field goal percentage is in the 60s. That's better than at any point in his career.

And that's obviously because he's taking five threes a game. and he's hitting those at about 32%, which is respectable enough for someone who does as much as he does. The one and only kind of sore spot on his record or a blotch on his record

is the free throw shooting. He's shooting 58% from the free throw line, 59, pretty much. He's getting there almost 11 times a game, and while it's encouraging because all we talk about with Hardin, for instance, are the easy points

that he gets by generating free throw attempts, right? That's kind of like the differentiation between a great player and perhaps the MVP is they're able to get to the line and generate points just based off of that. But I guess the flip side of that is our teams putting him more on the line because they want to take advantage of its support free throw shooting. And my question for you, Charks, is like how much of an issue do you think that is going

to be going forward? That's a good question, especially down the end of playoff games, right? If they're force feeding him the ball in the fourth quarter, at some point maybe he's put him on the line. And I think the bigger question, I'm kind of curious for your perspective, I feel like there's been no Yannas pushback, right? Compared to like Hardin or E, LeBron or whoever, it just seems like he's been all positive for Yannis.

Even after he lost in the playoffs last year, there's been no, like, swing back the other way. But maybe if he wins two in a row, that might finally happen. Like, if he wins two MVP's in a row, they won the championship, I thought we'll finally see an anti-Yanish kind of the political turn on a little bit. Yeah, that's really interesting, because as much as we don't want to admit it,

Like the narrative is a huge part of how we vote on these things. And you would have expected if like the people were going to come for like the haters, I guess, or whatever we want to say it, whatever the millennials are saying these days, we're going to come for Janus. It was going to be because of perhaps the team struggling. And all of a sudden we're talking about is free agencies. Free agency looms over in 2021, the entire league. You can already see teams just like maneuvering their cap in order to have the available

resources that summer. Toronto has been the team long speculated at this point that has its eyes on Janus. It would make a lot of sense given, I think, his relationship with Masay Jiri and just Toronto being just this multicultural, like, hub and their model franchise at this point as well. That's probably the biggest thing to take away from there. But it really hasn't been a factor. I do wonder how much that is because Milwaukee is a small market. But it's also because they've taken care of business. Yannis has been better.

and the team, even though they let go of Malcolm Brogden, another thing that we could point to and say, hey, you were pinching pennies, this isn't the way to keep Janus. That really hasn't been an issue outside of maybe a couple of blips and nearly going, right? Yeah, and you said, like, the haters will come out. Does Yonis have haters?

No, and that's the other thing. Like, what is there to hate? It's just... I guess the only thing people will hate is, like, if he gets too much, quote-unquote publicity, but he's playing in a small market, right? Yeah, and he also seems like he doesn't feed into that. He doesn't do a lot of interviews. And I think the thing last year was that he ended up

becoming a bit distant from the media, not necessarily adversarial, but he just wasn't feeding the beast. And I think his brand, if we want to affix that to him, and I don't know how much of a conscious decision it is to begin with, it just seems like he does want to take care of business. And so it's hard not to just like respect that. And because he's not giving us anything else, he's not giving us drama. He really isn't giving us anything to nitpick beyond like a free throw shooting that we just talked about. The really, the only thing to focus on is the fact that he's just crushing. And so here we are talking about him crushing. Yeah, see, this is why, like, I hate to say it, but why I ever talk to the media? Like, KD., you know, Kyrie, all these guys. It doesn't, turns out bad at them every time,

it seems like. Right. Trachs is the reason why newspapers won't exist in five years. Well, I don't read them, so I guess you're right. Yeah, I know. I mean, I read them online. I have a couple subscriptions. Showsha Sor guys in the content minds, just grinding. But yeah, I mean, I think he was the clear-cut case. I think now is a good time to pivot to the guys perhaps that you considered, if only for a little bit, for the top spot. So which guy for you came up second or which guy do you think would be the biggest challenge to you on his for this top spot?

Okay, I voted LeBron second, but I'm kind of regretting. that now. Wow. I mean, I look at it like Hardin is in the double teamed at half court. Perhaps I should give them some credit for that. Yes, that's honestly why I was swayed toward Hardin. So I had Janus, Hardin, Luca,

Anthony Davis, LeBron James. And like you, as I now sit a day later, or perhaps even longer, and look at my list, it does, I probably would switch a couple things. I'd probably move LeBron up. Specifically about Hardin, though,

yes, I think the way he warps the floor on offense deserves just like a ton of credit. I know the scoring numbers are up, but even that doesn't even like give credit to like how much of effect he has on the entire game. And so it's almost as like a reward for what he's been doing. I put him second even though the two Lakers guys

are just like Janus and the bucks are blowing everybody out. they're also 21 and 3 as we go into Wednesday night's slate. And also, Luca is leading the best offense in the league. I guess for you, what was it that led you to LeBron in the first place, even though perhaps maybe you wouldn't do that again? I think it's just two-way ability. It seems like he's taking a step forward in defense this year.

Or at the very least, he's existing in a scheme that's playing really well. He's not taking his main notice who plays off. And he's, you know, 6-9, 270 or whatever. So just the ability to impact both, ends of the floor. I think both the Lakers guys, and that's where I think the separation of Hardin is, which might be more of a playoff regular season discussion, but just to say that both Lakers guys can impact the game was so high on both ends of the floor. Right. And as I was doing this, I focused on Davis more than LeBron. And I think that's where I would probably switch

the order. I think at least from the start of the season, a lot of the success the Lakers were having we're on the defense event, right? And Davis is a huge part of that. As I started to dig a little bit more into LeBron's case, you could also start to see just like how damn good he has been this year. So this year he is putting up 26 points, about seven rebounds, about 11 assists, which good God. And 1.3 steals on 50, 36, 71 shooting splits.

his last MVP season, which was the 2012, 2013 season, 27 points, 8 rebounds, 7.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 57, 4174, and now 41% from 3. Like, I look back and like, wow, LeBron actually did that. But he also is jacking way more threes now, which is probably why the percentages aren't where they are. And 36 is actually pretty good, especially for someone like him who hasn't been a plus shooter in his career. And so LeBron is pretty much back to peak LeBron. And I wonder if I didn't give him enough credit or I guess that's the question. Like, are we giving LeBron enough credit for what he's doing? It's hard to say in the MVP race because he's playing with Davis.

It just feels very hard to put him the same conversation as Janice and Hardin. And I think maybe the problem is we viewed all through the frame of the MVP race. Right? It's all like who's the best player, who's the least amount of help. but is that really the most important distinction? Is it more about who's driving winning? And I think because we're so MVP-oriented these days, it's easy for anybody who's not, like, quote-unquote,

caring his team to, like, get kind of taken a step back. Though at Golden's sake the last couple of years, no one's talking about Steph and KD because they're playing together. Right. Yeah, the one thing that really, like, made me second-guess the Davis over LeBron pick was, like, the on-off numbers are very strange.

So, whereas LeBron, the Improhn's, is huge. When he's on, the Lakers are good, when he's off. It's set, like, the statistics suggests that the Lakers are, I think he had the best, or like, the Lakers were their worst when he was off their floor. That's the best way to say it. Davis, on the other hand, when he's off the floor, like, the Lakers were like a plus 11.6 net reading. And while net rating is a bit noisy and there's probably a lot more to investigate there, It's a big enough number at this point when we have about 25 games

of data to suggest that there's probably something going on there. Here's my thought about that. I think those numbers show that LeBron's running point this year. So when LeBron's not in, point guard either Ray John Rondo. And when Rondo was out, you're looking at

Alex Caruso, Quinn Cook, Avery Bradley-ish, maybe. I think that's really the drop-off, right? So Dave's playing a lot without LeBron, which means he's not really playing with a point guard because they don't really have a second point guard. And they're not really using him like a playmaking wingish role. He's kind of playing more of a traditional popping out big, getting his numbers.

So then when Davis is out, you still have LeBron running point. And you have Dwight Howard usually is in at center. And he's had a really great season, kind of playing a defensive rim running role. So it just feels like Davis's role in the team. I think that's where those numbers come from. I think Davis playing off having an awesome year. So I wouldn't hold it too much against them. but it feels like the way the team is constructed

it's kind of holding him back a little bit in terms of his numbers. Totally, yeah. We're splitting hairs at this point between like the five best players in the league. I guess like if we are splitting hairs though, the fact that LeBron is able to do that while as Davis, I believe there's a stat I saw today

by Owen Phillips, who is a stat head, who has a good Instagram account. He has these like visuals, these data visuals that he puts on there. And I think Davis was, second among the league leader in points of having the lowest usage rate, which means that he is being fed points. He is the point of the spear, not necessarily the person who's throwing it. And so, yes, LeBron is activating Davis.

Ooh, I like that. That's a good phrase, though, Jess. Point in the spear. I think I got that metaphor right. I think I got the metaphor right. But I can't wait for people on Twitter to point out the flaws in what I just said. So yeah, I think that has to be factored in. Although the case for Davis in that situation is that LeBron went through a season without an Anthony Davis in L.A. He played with these young guys.

And yes, he got hurt and that was a big factor for the Lakers cratering. They probably would have made the playoffs last year if LeBron didn't have that groinia injury around Christmas Day. At the same time, LeBron is able to play the way that he's playing now where he's more of a a distributor, he's the guy getting Davis involved, because Davis is there. And if LeBron has a flaw, especially like these days, it's on the defensive end. And Davis comes in and has been way more active on that end than he's ever been. And I've seen a lot of defensive possessions over my life with Anthony Davis. And there are times where he will just coast. It's like, it's a fact. And like there are reasons for that. The Pelicans didn't give him a lot of reason

to be engaged because they're often playing for draft picks. But at the same time, Davis, when motivated on the defensive end, is, if not the defensive player of the year, then, like, the second best defensive player in the league. And so I think that is a big factor in it. My only question is, do you think 80 says my life with Justin Barrier when referencing this is time in New Orleans? I would be surprised if he remembers me. I actually haven't been to a Lakers game since he's been out there or even like a practice

or whatever. So we haven't run into each other. but I expect a warm embrace eventually from my unibroad friend. I think that's wise. That way you can't live up. You can always have the idea in your head without the reality hitting you in the face. Right. It's like a breakup and you guys decide that a place that you used to go to,

like one person just doesn't want to go there anymore, like the coffee shop or maybe it's the gym that you guys both shared. Like, Staples Center is that for me and Anthony Davis. You're being the bigger man here. I'm proud of you to that. You really got to plan what you're going to wear for the jury. jersey exchange though. Oh, that's true.

I'm going to get that big Davis-Lakers jersey. Yeah, and then I'll give him one of my shalled, like, cardigans. I think that'd be a good... Your sombre. Shere. I have a lot of those. I think it should be... It should be more of the AVI exchange, right?

If you're going to be a... Yes. Somehow we can tweak that at it, like, the Twitter header exchange. I don't know. Right. Right. Well, let's wrap up this top five here just briefly. Is there anything more you want to say about Harding? in Luca and where you put them on your list?

Well, I was just thinking about it in terms of big picture. So if you had to make the list of the top five two-way players in the game, would it be Janus, the two Lakers, and the two clippers? I guess so, but then this gets into a discussion about Paul George and where we place him based on the number of games he's played. Actually, let's take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsors first, and then we'll get back to that question. Today's episode of group chat is brought to you by Roman, with two-thirds of guys experiencing noticeable hair loss by age 35.

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Well, here's the thing. I haven't been there before. He knows he hasn't. Yeah. Yeah. So we were talking specifically about the two-way guys and how we value that versus some of these guys like Luka and Hardin. It's interesting. I did factor it in more Charks. I think that's why I looked past some of the injuries. issues that Kauai had early on and perhaps like it's tough to just forget about what he did in the finals and what he really just like he grasped the

best player in the world belt and so you really want to give him his credit other than that though I didn't think too much about it if anything as I look over my list and perhaps this is unconscious like I put Hardin and Luca above both Kauai and AD so maybe there's

just something about just the you know just how aesthetically, like, pleasing those guys play? I don't know. That led me to put them to three. Well, it seems in the regular season, when it's all about putting up massive numbers and like being night and night out kind of caring teams, that ability to put up huge numbers on the ball to create each shots for yourself and your teammates, it does feel more valuable. But in the playoffs, right? In a playoff series, if it's Rockets Lakers or Rockets Clippers, how is that going to match up? who's the more valuable

that Paul George or James Harden. That to me is the interesting question. Yeah, I think I looked at the exercises specifically, this is the 25 games that we've seen thus far, and I didn't try to factor in how the playoffs would work its way into that. I think it's interesting, though, as I look at your list, you have quiet 11th. Is that only because of the games you missed?

Yeah, that was just going off that. But I'm just talking more big picture. I didn't even have Paul George in there because I feel like these games don't really matter anyways. Let's give some credit to the guys who are playing every night by voting them on these little meaningless lists. Yeah, that was a tough one because I didn't know what the cutoff for that was. George played, I believe he's played 14 games thus far. A guy like Kyrie Irvin has only played 11. That seems like too few.

But I did end up knocking Paul George even though I included him for the games that he's. he missed. So I have him at 15th. And pretty much what I ended up doing is I slotted him in after the tier of guys. I feel like the top seven or eight guys or nine guys for me were pretty like clear cut. I wanted those guys in some order. And then there was a next tier of guys who have played, who've broken through. They tend to be ball handlers and scores on decent teams minus Bradley Beale. And then I put Paul there. almost as like that is his penance for not playing as many games. That seems fair to me.

Yeah. I like penance is a good word. It's truly a punishment. Right. I'm sure he's really feeling this as he's listening to this podcast on the way to the game tonight. Shout out PG. Right. Yeah, no, the other things with Luca, like, I think with Luca and Hardin specifically at

two and three, they have done things that have been significant. this early going. And yeah, part of that is narrative, I'll admit, but Luca is an MVP candidate in his second year at 20 years old

and is leading the Mavericks, a team that didn't make the playoffs last year to the best offense in the NBA and back into playoff contention. And not even playoff contention, they're going to make it. They're currently third in the West

as we speak. And then Hardin, yes, the Rockets aren't doing as well as even the Mavericks. They sit behind them in fourth place. but he doesn't have as much. You know, the team is really built around his success. Russell Westbrook has even fallen to a role

as we've talked about in many podcasts at this point into a role where he is ancillary to what Hardin is doing. And so there's only so much you can overlook with like how Hardin gets his points before you realize just the like sheer magnitude of how much the Rockets need him and how much of effect he has on the game. Doesn't it seem like this year,

Russ is almost a pair of brakes and it's Harden has to like work it's like Hardin is biking uphill with Russ in the game and he has to work so much harder because there's so many guys on him so this is where the on-off numbers really tell the story. So Harden without Russ is plus 14

Harden with Russ is plus seven. Russ without Hardin is minus nine. Jesus. I feel like we should do this every podcast. I mean, what can you even say right there? Just keep running track of those numbers. Because I think, yeah, this is at the very least like the third time we brought up these numbers and they don't get any better. Well, they actually have gotten better, but they remain bad for Russ.

It's just remarkable, really. I mean, so Harden without Russ is that offensive rating of 120, which I think would be the best of all time by a substantial margin. And then Russ without Harden is offensive rating a 103. Like sometimes it's like a science experiment. Oh, here's this variable. Here's this variable. Yeah. Let's see what happens.

You have a control and everything. Yeah. Well, here's a question. Would the Rockets be better with Chris Paul considering the way Paul has played this year? I think they would be. I think they would be. I mean, he's been healthy and he looks like, I actually have Chris Paul on my list of top 25 players. I have him at 24th. Just because of the way the Thunder have played there now, if the season ended today, they would be seventh, they would be the seventh seed in the West, which is incredible, even though they are under 500. And Paul is a big, like, huge, if not the most important factor in that about the way that he organizes the team. Did you see him snitch on Jordan Bell the other night? Oh yeah, yeah. That's the other part of this. Is that he literally won a game

by convincing a referee that a technical should be called about someone not tucking in his shirt. That's like, that's mind-effing stuff that just like no other player provides. And for that reason alone, he is on my list. And then he did it to mellow. Did you see it to mellow?

No, I missed that one. So, Melo was, like, griping about a call after, like, he was posting up someone on the Thunder and he didn't get the call that he wanted. And so he smacked his hands. And you could hear in the audio on the court, Chris Ball, being like, that's a technical. And they called it. Like, that's incredible. Like, he's literally just, he's debating these referees into getting calls. Like, that is, that is value.

That is nothing and not value. He is police for sure. I would say the Paul Westbrook swap, that was more about hopefully, that was kind of like Paul's is a safer play and Westbrook's like the long term, we need to raise our ceiling play. But I do think,

I wonder with this, something with Hardin, you compare Hardin to LeBron and Kauai, maybe we're looking at the wrong things in terms of who brings value to a team. So Kauai was recruiting Paul George and Hardin was recruiting Russell Westbrook. Maybe that's,

the bigger thing right there. Yeah, I mean, how much of the trade ended up being that Hardin just didn't want to play with Paul? It's kind of unknowable, but even as we go along this season, you could definitely tell from comments and specifically from Chris Paul in an interview with Mark Spears of ESPN definitely alluded to the fact that like, yeah, there were some stuff going on there. I haven't talked to James since then, yada, yada. And so for that reason, maybe to just like remove a cancerous element from the locker room

or potentially like a conflict from the locker room, yeah, then you're coming out as a net positive. And I guess if there's a case for Russ against Chris Paul, it's that Russ will probably be available in the playoffs. Russ before all of his injuries was just like the model, like, employee in terms of like showing up. And even as he's gone along, like he's still playing 81, 80, 73 games a year. And so that's the thing with Chris Ball.

As good as he is now, how much. much can you rely on him in the playoffs because he has a tendency to get hurt. I think, too, it's not as he's simple as saying, oh, if you had put Paul back in Houston, because Simicay was going both ways. Paul, I don't think, wanted to go back to Houston, right? He probably got tired of being, like, Hardin's understudy for two years, kind of standing in the corner of Hartman before he every night. Maybe not. Maybe not. I could see Paul considering just, like, how dog it he is and, like, where he is

at his career, finding a way to get over that. I mean, he would probably, he would be the one rubbing hard in the wrong way. It probably wouldn't go the other way. But Paul is, like, he has more motivation to make that relationship work, right? Just because of where he is and, like, how few opportunities. That was probably his last opportunity for a title last year, as sad as it is to say. Yeah, I mean, I wonder from his point of view, though, if he's like, if I could wind up with the Lakers somehow, right? Oh, yeah.

I mean, that would be incredible, but that would also mean giving up the $40 million or whatever he is owed in the future. and that like, and like he is himself to blame. Like Rob Mahoney wrote about this specifically for us in the ringer the other day. Just like Paul was the one who got that stipulation into the CBA as the CBA president in order to get more money on his contract that he's on now.

And that ultimately is made it tough for him to find another home with like even like a Miami Heat situation. And I don't know if it's going to come. I just don't know the team, even as we're sitting here today. in December who says to themselves, we need Chris Paul at this age with this

contract as we go forward. Yeah, I just don't think players think about cat mechanics like that as much. They're like, let me get my mind and figure it out. And that's kind of what I was going to with Hardin. I wonder, like, when you're at the level of a Hardin or a LeBron, a Kauai, these kind of like three or five,

top five players, you're almost playing like this game of shadow chess that goes on for years on end to get a championship, right? You kind of have to have like this big like little finger-esque view of the world. Like LeBron or you know you're moving guys for two or three years at a time. Whereas it didn't feel like hard and plays the game at that level. Oh, I'll put with Chris Paul.

That sounds fine. Actually, I don't like Chris Paul. Get him out of here. Oh, Russ is my boy. Come in Houston. But it doesn't seem like he's made the connection where, okay, I can get my numbers. But how do I find guys who fit my game? Like when he said, let me bring Russ to Houston.

Did he think, okay, Russ can come here. and then stand in a corner for 40 minutes while I get my 40 points because if that was his plan, it's just not going to work, right? Right. Whereas with, you know, Kauai and LeBron, they're kind of seeing the big picture of how do guys make me better on a team concept.

Right. It's that political element that honestly exists in probably every job, especially like as an executive or the higher up you get on an org chart. Or a ringer editor, right? Same thing. Right. Exactly. No, but like in the job description for top 10 player, it doesn't say being able to recruit your star friends.

And yet, LeBron has put that more into focus and has made that more of a priority. I guess the counter to even that argument would be that Kauai didn't even seem like the type of guy to recruit and it doesn't seem like, and again, this is just reading Kauai because we don't really have a good feel for him, he doesn't have good relationships or like tight bonds with a lot of these players. but because he was so good and he played a certain style of basketball and the Clippers would be a certain caliber of team this year

that he was able to convince Paul George, right? I think at a certain point, like just your play talks for itself. Yeah, and that's the question. Like, did James Harder make that phone call? I don't know that he did, right? Did he call Paul Jordan said it come here, play in Houston with me?

Yeah. I would assume that Mori, like, Daryl Morey and Houston exhausted all opportunities to get other players. But then again, I don't know how you sell to James Harden. Yeah, I got the wolves

like, I got Robert Covington and Jeff Teague for Chris Paul instead of Russell Westbrook, one of your best friends in the league and a former MVP, right? You can't sell that to Hardin. Yeah, that's the thing. When you're at that level of the game,

you need to sell the GM what you got to do, right? More than GM has sell you. Right. Like, no one sold LeBron Anthony Davis. told them what was going to happen. Right. Right. Same thing when he got in Kevin Love in Cleveland.

Right. He told them, okay, you have to do this. I have to do this. Then the next step. Yeah. And once again, LeBron was right. Like, as much as we wanted to talk about, like, how much the Lakers probably overpaid in order to get Davis, although the Clippers just far exceeded even that

package. Like, it is fascinating to see what LeBron can do with adults in the room. I think that more than anything last year was the biggest issue with the Lakers was just there was just a bunch of young kids and when has LeBron ever wanted to play with young guys? It's been like a Mario Chalmers here who he by the way yelled at constantly

and then there's been you know a Norris Cole or there's been guys on the calves that he took under his wing you know Chetty Osmond is an example of that guy that he like really took a shine to but like not his number two option not Brandon Ingram Lonzo Ball like he needs a running mate

and he identified Davis and while the rest of the roster is just kind of minimum contracts and other guys they picked up with the money that they couldn't give to Kauai, he and Davis is enough to win a title, especially in this era of the big two. So I think you have to give LeBron a lot of credit for that. Let's get back to our lists, though. Just to go over like our top 10, I'm going to give you mind sharks and let me know if you find anything interesting about this or things that you disagree with.

So I had Janice at one, I had Hardin at two. I had Luca at three, Davis, LeBron, Kauai. at seven I had Jimmy Butler, eight Carl Anthony Towns, nine Pascal Seacum, and ten was Joel Embed. What's the most interesting to you about that list? I wonder, I think it's 10 with Zimbab.

Because it just seems like he's not in a situation where he can really kind of maximize himself. And how good, I mean, he's probably the best pure center in the league at this point, best, most dominant two-way center. And like, how good can a player, like, be in this league and on this type of team. And you wonder like with Embeddon Simmons, are they destined to one day break apart and kind of rise up these lists on their own? Are they

holding each other back? Yeah, no, this is my favorite topic, chart. So I'm glad you're talking about this a lot now that I mentioned. No, no, I would talk about it any podcast. Yeah, I think it is interesting. And I think it's specifically interesting because I ended up leaving Ben Simmons off of my list. And we can get to that eventually, but it was in part because of that, like, because of these guys clash and I don't know if Ben is fully optimized in that environment. He's been much more engaged on the defensive end, but ultimately Embed is the one who's been shining on this team and they've been good, not great. And perhaps I subconsciously just like ding Ben for that. They are 18 and 7. They did beat the nuggets last night.

pretty handily. The Nuggets came back, but I thought Embed proved to be a frontline player in the way that Yokic didn't. Another guy we need to definitely talk about. Just looking at the rest of the list of our top tens, I think Towns is an interesting one as well. Just because I think I was privy to a lot of other people's ballots. And I don't think everyone was as sold on Towns as we are, perhaps because we both worked on a feature about how good he is that you wrote and I edited earlier in the season and perhaps I'm swayed by your convincing arguments,

but I do wonder if some people look at where the wolves are in the standings, not a playoff team at the moment, and then also the defense and like how much we should factor that in. Yeah, and he's kind of falling off

and that goes back to really for anyone out of the top, really anyone in the top five, it's like how much do you value individual play versus winning on a team level? Because you look at the wolves roster and it's, man,

it's hard to win 50 games of that roster. right. They're starting Jared Culver at point guard now, a rookie. They're starting, I think it's Josh Akogia too. So there's really no shooting on the floor. There's no real playmaking. It's just really tough. And how much talent, I think, is taking a step forward, but how much do you credit him for that when a team isn't winning really? And right, or right, even like you're on, for down the list, the guy like Devin Booker. I mean, has he really changed much from last season? Or does he have better players around him? So what are we really measuring with these things,

Right. Wolves are on currently a five-game losing streak going into the game with the jazz. And these are the type of teams that they've faced over the past five games that really are kind of measuring sticks, both for towns as an MVP candidate, as a top-10 guy, and also as the wolves as a team and as a legit playoff contender. They lost to the Grizzlies, which is a bad loss, the Mavericks, the Thunder, the Lakers, the Sun. So good teams, like you wouldn't expect them perhaps to beat the Lakers. You wouldn't expect them. to beat the Mavericks. But like the Suns, that's the team you need to be. If you want to be in the playoffs, the Thunder, that's a team you need to beat and obviously the Grizzlies. The other thing is, while Anthony Davis loves

chewing up Carl Towns, and like if there's one thing I remember for my experience covering Davis for two years, it's that if there's any game that he really targets on his list, it's definitely Towns, because Towns, I wrote a story about this for ESPN.com once where Towns just,

like, likes to talk crap. And Davis, like, ever since. I think Towns was at Kentucky and Davis was just in the league and Davis is a whole bad. That was our guy, Kenny Payne. Right.

Kenny Ben. That's right. The Kentucky big man assistant there. And so Davis has made it a point to really show him up every opportunity he gets. And then lo and behold last Sunday, Davis drops 50 on him. But like that's a game where like,

you know, Davis is going to do what he does. But like Towns 19 points. One for seven from three. And it's just like, ah, that's really one where I would like to see Towns compete a little bit more. It seems like I am fascinated in something that you brought up before in preseason, actually, is Towns's ability to stretch the floor as a three-point shooter. He's shooting eight threes a game at 42% from three.

It's like so fascinating to me that he could play that way. But then I also wonder, like, how much is that just like a novelty and like an asset, but not necessarily enough in order to lead this team? to where they need to get to. Well, I mean, you look at him, it's just like AD. Without that point guard there to kind of get him the ball where he needs it, it seemed like there's a kind of a limit. So those first couple games at start of the season,

Town was getting like 35, 40. And it was like, oh my gosh, he's about to have this like historic season. You know, our features are going to look really amazing doing it before the season. And then it feels like teams adjusted. They said, we're not going to let towns beat us. The rest of these guys aren't that good. Like we're going to hold, we're going to make him pass. basketball, we're going to hold his scoring down, and his teammates can't make us pay for that,

and they haven't. And you look at, it does kind of feel like unless Minnesota can make another trade can kind of really bolster their playmaking, are they kind of capped out with talent, Cat as their best player? It seems possible. Yeah, that's an interesting question, especially as we head into the trade deadline. That's actually a good point to take a quick break, though. When we come back, we're actually going to talk about a couple of ball handlers that are next on our list. So we'll hear from our sponsors and then we'll come back with sharks. The Bringer MBA show is brought to you by Fandual Sportsbook. You've probably heard me talk about Fandual Sportsbook for the past few weeks. So by now, you know about their simple, intuitive app that

makes placing your bets easy. But this week, I want to tell you about another feature that I really think sets Fandual apart from other sports betting sites. Same game parlays. A same game parlay is a parlay combining multiple bets from one single game. For example, you could parlay the over, the spread, and a player prop bet, or even three player props. Same game parles are a great option if you think you have a great read on how a single game is going to play out. Bobby. I am looking at tonight's game. This is Wednesday between the Rockets and the Cavs. The Cavs are reeling. I don't know if you've heard this, but...

It definitely are. Kevin Love wants out, it seems like. Nobody likes John Beeline, except for Tristan Thompson, oddly enough. And a bunch of basketball writers. Yes. This is true. So I'm looking at this game. Tell me what you think about this, because I'm not of huge better,

and so I need a little bit of help here. Okay. I like the Houston Rockets to win, first and foremost. I think bold. I think we'll get that one. The other ones I want to go a little bit more bold. I like Clint Capella over 15 points. Okay.

I think he's definitely rounded into shape here. I don't know what kind of effort the Cavs will give in this game. And here's the other one I want. I want Russell Westbrook to record a triple-t. double. So what stands out to me is Clint Capella over. I feel good about the Russell Westbrook triple double, obviously. And I feel good about the Rockets winning even more

obviously. Clint Capella over. Maybe he has a tough time with Tristan Thompson. It's a big body in there. But maybe, like you said, Tristan Thompson gets lazy, gets it done just by rolling to the rim and getting Hardin and Westbrook putbacks. Yeah, I mean, Capella hasn't scored over 15

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Call 1-800 gambler or in West Virginia. Visit www. W.1-800 gambler.net or in Indiana call 1-800-9 with it. All right, we're back. It's Charks. It's Justin. It's Bobby. So we were just talking about some of the guys in the top 10 in our list, kind of going down into the top 12 even. Next on our lists, at least for me, let's just make it easy and focus on mine. I have just this tier of score first guards, ball handlers, however you want to describe it. it just seems like, and a lot of these guys are guys who are having important seasons,

or having notable seasons in the big story of the NBA, if we're looking at the bigger picture, but aren't necessarily on the level of even like a Jimmy Butler, a guy who's leading the heat into finals contender status. So I have Damien Lillard at 11. I have Campbell Walker at 12. I have Devin Booker at 13. I have Bradley Beal at 14.

And I have Paul George at 15. I mentioned before that Paul George because of his injuries. That's why I dropped him so low. Charks, you have, after 12, so you have Lillard at 10, let's even go before that. You have Beal at 9, you have Lillard at 10,

and you have Donovan Mitchell at 13. And then Malcolm Brogden at 14. So a little bit different than mine. What led you to some of those guys? Let's maybe even focus on Beal at 9, just to start with. Well, I think with Beal, well, I was looking at it,

So these guys are all primary ball handlers, for the most part, Beal, Dame, Brogden right now. And I just, I find it hard to blame a primary ball handler for a bad defense, right? Beal has got the Wizards at a top five offense. He's putting up 28 and 7 on pretty good percentages. And the team isn't very good around him, right? Their second score might be a rookie, might be Hachamura. You have like Isaiah Thomas, the great Davos Bertans, obviously. But they're just not a lot of talent around him, right?

So to me, the Warriors are not winning games because they don't defend anyone. But you don't really ask a 6-4 point guard to be this tip of your defense. That's not going to be a defensive player. So I can't really hold it against him. They're not guarding people. So to me, he's having a great season. And I was thinking about it. And I think the thing between with Beale and Mitchell is very interesting.

So they're both 6-3-6-4 combo guards started off as two guards and they started their NBA career. And I think Beal's made the jump I want to see Mitchell make, where Beal is now the primary ball handler, the offense goes through him. And I wonder if Utah made the wrong decision to bring in Mike Connolly and move Mitchell off the ball. Because now you've got a really small back court that's not playing that well. Conno is a little older. And I just feel like both him and Mitchell need the ball in their hands. And I think their best version of Utah is when Mitchell has the ball and he's playing with big wings around him, as opposed to having to move off the ball and being a small. That's interesting.

Yeah, it's hard to argue with that at this point, just considering how much that Mike Conley has struggled. I guess the question becomes, has he struggled specifically because of the fit, trying to weave into a team where Donovan probably had the ball more. At the very least, it was a little bit more natural with him and Ricky Rubio trading off there. And also the pick and roll combination with Rudy Gobert.

There's been some griping from Gobert that perhaps Conley just isn't on the same page as him, and then maybe Conley is used to a different type of big and Gasol who could stretch the floor a little bit. And so I don't know. Is that a function of Conley specifically not being able to fit there? Or is Donovan Mitchell's future,

does it rest as a Beal type, as this kind of score for a guard who's handling and also distributing elsewhere? I don't know. Where do you think is future? I just think if you look at a, size and you're going to be an elite team, it's hard to have like a guy smaller than Mitchell. Then you have a really small back court, right?

You got a 6-1-6-3 against like, you know, the Rockets, got a 65-point guard. Then the Lakers got a 681. To me, Mitchell has to be at least on the ball. And then you have size around him to make up for his lack of size. So it's like, so you want to have a thing that goes 6-3-66-67-68 as opposed to 6-1-6-3. I think that puts you a big disadvantage against the bigger back. courts. And to me, like Mitchell, if he's going to be a franchise player, he has had the ball on his hands. He's not big enough to be an elite off ball player, I don't think. I don't think he's

like it, like, he's not a Steph Curry shooter anyways. To me, I remember there was that series against the Rockets a couple of years ago. This first series against him, he had a game where he had like 11 assists. Okay, now this is where Donovan is going to be a franchise player. He can get, he can score really easily, he can shoot off the dribble, and then he gets slinging and past other guys. Like, to me, that's like the ceiling. And then also he's still really young. So Mitchell is 23 this year, Beals 27. So I just wonder if like the whole thing in Utah

looking at it the wrong way. Like they should be looking at it like this is a three year build when Mitchell's in the prime of his career. Whereas right now I'm not sure how good they're going to. I mean, they're not being that playing very well. Right. Yes. And that is honestly that's the distinction I made between a lot of the guys in this year. This is when I really started to look at the standings

and started to wonder, how much guys have had an impact on winning. So I have Lillard at 11th, even though the Blazers haven't played well. But Lillard, I think, is, if things were to go well, I think is in the MVP discussion. His statistics are just as good as they were two years ago.

And even better than they were the year before, he missed some games. He's only played 23 at this point. But he was a type of guy where I really couldn't hold it against him so much that they weren't winning, just considering just like how many injuries they've had and also the like huge adjustments they've made on that roster.

On the other hand, I gave Kemba and Devin Booker the leg up on Bradley Beale specifically because of what their teams are doing. I mean, you look at Kemba, for instance, and let me put on my Yukon hat here. He's just like, I don't want to give into like the impact on vibes and like how much it is about like camaraderie and whatever because there's that whole Daryl Morey thing about that I...

kind of subscribe to. It's like just get the best players on the court and they'll figure it out. But clearly, with Walker and pretty much the same team from last year in Boston that Kyrie had, the team is just significantly better.

And I think either it's the way he plays, it's either, you know, just the type of locker room guy he is. It's just all of the things that were an issue last season, Boston just don't seem to be the case. And if anything, if there's like a point on his resume,

it's the fact that we both have Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum on our lists. And I don't think we would do that last year. And the idea that like as something happened with that team where those guys now look like the dynamic one-two wing combination that we all expected after that Eastern Conference Finals run, I think you have to give Kempa some credit for that. See, the thing is I look at it. Like what happened was Hayward got injured, Terry Roseir left, and Marcus Morris left. I feel like all those kind of variables open the door for Tatum and Brown take a step forward.

Sure. That's kind of how I'm looking at it. Yeah, it could be. Maybe I'm like ascribing too much. Also, Justin, I have a question for you. Sure. With your Yukon hat, is Kemba Walker the last great Yukon player? Oh, God. Charks, you're killing me.

Right? It's been a long time now. It's been pretty bleak recently to the point where they played a national TV game against Indiana last night. and not only did I not know that was happening until somebody in the office put it on, but like I also did not watch. It's just... I mean, they're going back to the Big East now at least. Maybe that can get them back going again.

Yeah. It's been... I mean, if anybody care about college basketball, I'll be a huge story, right? Yukon went from this NBA back powerhouse to just nothing for almost a decade now. Yeah, I think the last guy was... Last big prospect...

Chbaz. Yeah, last big prospect was Andre Drummond in the last actual like front line guy or first round pick, I think, was probably Shabazz, which is sad. It's been a significant drop off. And I don't want to talk about it anymore. Thanks, Sharks. How to go to that in there.

Yeah. Yeah. And so I have Walker there. He's also playing better. Like, his effective field goal percentages is just right up there with his career highs. And I think the way that Brad Stevens is using him, a little bit more off the ball. And like what he opens up by being that sort of versatile play. is enough to bump him above Booker,

who is also playing more with the traditional point guard, like Donovan Mitchell, and the sons have had success as a result of that. Let's get to the next couple guys on our lists here. So after 15, who I had Paul George there, I have Nicola Yokic. If you guys are group chat listeners, you will recall that I made a big stink

about Yokuch being perhaps the favorite for MVP. Soon after that, he showed up to Denver Nuggets camp, looking, I would say about like 20 donuts worth of overweight, which is impossible,

at the very least, improbable, because he played all summer for his country at the World Cup. And if anything, I look at my list now and I wonder if I should rank him lower.

Where did you have him? I mean, it's one of, I had him at 25, just because, you know, he didn't really show up in shape. He's playing his way. He's on the old Shaq diet, I feel so. Right.

I'll be fine by April. Whatever. I think the whole Nuggets team, it seemed, they've kind of made that step toward their note. They've got some playoff success. They're, I think, already looking at the playoffs. And they're having a hard time getting up for the whole season at this point, I think.

I think it's that natural kind of regression. So they had the big jump last year. They went from like fringe playoff team to winning a series, kind of being a quote unquote contender. And now it's just hard to get up for these games. right? When you know, okay, my season's coming down to what happens in May and June,

it's November right now. I'll figure, we have enough talent to win games. You know, it's okay. Right? Yeah. Nocuch is like the fans. He's load managing himself all playing. That's wonderful. I love that load management has just become the catch-all for when people just like aren't doing something.

Like when I just like don't do an assignment, I'll just call it load management now. Oh, can we do that? I got to start using that one. I shouldn't give you ideas. Yeah, I mean, I think last night's game was a prime example against the Sixers of where Yokic is right now. He's fine. Like, he is good, even at times.

His overall numbers aren't there. But this is also a guy that we kind of accepted, like maybe the scoring wouldn't be there as much as a lot of MVP candidates that we once had. And the fact that he's averaging 10 assists a game no longer feels notable, even though, holy shit, this like NBA center is averaging 10 assists a game.

At the same time, it is super disappointing when you expect a guy to keep developing. It's the reverse of the Janus thing. You expect a guy to keep going forward and changing his game and adding to his game. It just didn't seem like Yokic really got there this year. And if anything, he took things off of the table because in the playoffs, he looked super engaged on defense. he wasn't as much of a sieve as he has been in years past. You didn't have to cover for him as much.

And I just thought that would carry over into this season. I thought he would be motivated considering just how well he played against some of the best players in the league in order to really use that to spark a big run in the regular season. But maybe it's what you're saying. Maybe like he realizes the regular season isn't where, you know, seasons are really dictated. And now he's just saving it for the playoffs. I don't know what he's doing. it is disappointing.

I think, yeah, we'll be fine. It's all right. Like, his playoff numbers from last year, pretty insane. So last from the playoffs, he was 25, 13, and 8 on 51% shooting. Yeah, that's pretty good. That's like a top five player if he gets back to that. And he's only 24. So one thing I was saying in his defense, I was talking with folks in Dallas about that.

And they told me, Dirk didn't really kind of take his diet seriously until, like, the mid to late 20s. like he didn't really kind of buckle down and start okay like Jokic's is still kind of a young player and if ever there's a guy who really needed to take his diet seriously it's not like Luka like Luka did this summer

and you can see the big difference for him maybe for Yokic's will take a little longer to kind of get in shape. I don't know. Right, yeah and not the fat shame Yokic which actually happens and we probably shouldn't do it as much like he was in better shape last year like he just don't think he'll ever have the body

where he'll be putting it on Instagram and he'll just be like oh, cool abs, Nicola Yokish, you know? But at the same time... But it can't I'll be like you, Justin. It's a gift and a curse, I suppose. Yeah, right, right.

It's just, I don't know, man. Like, just, like, show up and just, like, want to play. Like, you could have been an MVP candidate. Just, like, take that. All right, let's just move along. I have Yokish at 16. I have Brogden at 17.

I have Donovan Mitchell at 18. Actually, should I pause to talk about Brogden? Do you have anything more to say? about him? We've probably hit that one enough. Okay. Yes, Charks also wrote about the Pacers earlier this week, so

you can go read that for yourselves. At 19, I have one Bam out of bio, a guy who not to reveal anything about one, Kevin O'Connor, but we were slacking last night, and he was quite upset that Bam didn't end up higher on a lot of people's lists. I think he

would put him above Yokic and some of the other big men that ended up getting considered. You didn't have Bam. What are your feelings on our guy in Miami? I think he's really good. Honestly, I kind of ran a steam at the end of these lists, much like this podcast. Right. Yeah. Like, at a certain point, past like 17 or 18 years, kind of nitpicking, like picking right,

to me, Bam has been great this year. And if you have him up there, I have no problem with that. He's been, he's been great. That's the other thing. And that's what we should talk about. So on our, on the staff's list, I think there were only 20. 12 guys that ended up making it on everyone's ballot. And I think that's indicative of kind of where the league is right now. Where, yeah, we know the top five. I think the top five is probably similar on almost everyone's ballot.

Maybe Kauai gets in there. Maybe Jimmy Butler. That would probably only be the differences. And then even like the top 10, same guys, Butler Town, Siakum, and B, Lillard, those type of guys, Kemba even. But then it's like, it's really hard to distinguish because there's also been injuries. we don't have everybody available. Paul George has even been injured. Kyrie Irving, as we mentioned before.

And then there are like a couple guys where like guys putting up stats on bad teams. I didn't know what to do with Rudy Gobert because the Jazz's defense hasn't been as good as in years past. But his rim protection numbers all seem like in line with years pass. I also had just to keep going through my list here at 20, I had Brandon Ingram, a guy who's putting up numbers and is like kind of solidified. himself as the go-to guy in New Orleans while Zion is way. But the Pelicans have been a train wreck, especially on defense. Shrey Young, same thing. Big numbers, bad defense

at 21. I have Tatum at 22. I have Brown at 23. Chris Paul, 24, Rudy Gabbar at 25. So how did you kind of like separate these guys? Is there anything like maybe you looked at a Tatum or a Brown and you said, hey, this is like, this is the more important quality or like even Ben Simmons? Like, how did you kind of separate those guys? I think for Tateham and Brown,

I thought they've there been the two engines for the Celtics, and it's kind of hard to separate them, but I looked at just for shooting efficiency. For as good as Tatem's been, he's bricking a ton of shots. He's really, and it just feels like Brown has been way more judicious with his shots, and maybe if he was in a bigger role,

that would kind of flip. But I think I had to give credit for Brown for actually making his shots as opposed to Tatum. And I think from a big picture perspective, I'm looking at this list, how many guys over 30 are even on it anymore? That's a great point. It really feels like this is kind of,

this last year or two has been a real sea change in the whole league where it feels like it's become more of a young man sport. The way, with the way the league is officiated, with the spacing and this floor, it's all about speed and shooting and ball handling. And it just feels like it's a young perimeter player sport these days. There's almost no big men on it.

And I'm looking at the list, over 30, you've got Jimmy Butler is 30 LeBron obviously I think Butler's even 29 isn't he? No, he's 30. Oh, he's 30. Yeah.

That's it. There's no one else on. Kamba might be 30. I'm not sure how old he is exactly. Dame. There's maybe three or four guys over 30 years old in this list. Yeah.

Isn't that crazy? That's nuts. I guess we realize it, but we don't really. But like, really the only guys left from the old guard, the guys that really had been at the forefront of the league for many years are LeBron, obviously.

Chris Paul, who he himself has been relegated to just like a team that we're not expecting to make the playoffs and a small market team that just like we don't really pay attention to now because they're kind of in this weird limbo state. And then our guy Carmelo Anthony. Like, mellow is just somehow still there. And that's really it. I mean, even like a Lamarcus Aldridge, I didn't really give much. consideration to, De Marda Rosen.

Those are some of like the older guys that are still. I guess the other two is Katie and Steph. That's the thing I always turns out too, looking at this list. I'm not having, and Clay too. And Draymond. And Draymon. Right. Right.

Right. Yeah. No, they represent that kind of middle bridging the gap between the younger guys and some of the older ones. I mean, it was their sport for like three years. It was the war. And now they're just gone for that. And I look at the ratings like,

Golente was to face the league for so long. And now all their guys just boom, boom, boom, boom. right, they're all hurt. They're all off this list. And that's what I... I think for me next year is going to see how that how plays. Like, where is Katie on this list

in this era of the league now? I don't know. Yeah. Steph. Yeah, it's a great question. I would expect all of those guys to be up there along with Kyrie. But even, like,

even some of the guys who were all stars who were nipping on the heels of like, you know, top 20 status, whatever. Kevin Love, like, for instance, is just like he's not there anymore. Blake Griffin hasn't played well since he came back from injury. Andre Drummond is putting up big numbers

and you might even see him on our... You know what it makes me wander, Justin? So they were talking the other day about... I reading an article about load management and someone was like pointing out, oh, it's funny because back in the day, NBA guys were like, you know, close-lining each other and now these guys are real soft.

It was a John Hollinger article. And he was saying, no, actually the league is much harder now because you're doing so much more cutting off the ball and you're moving all the time. It's harder on your knees, it's harder on your joints. And it adds up over time. And then you look at these guys in the early 30s

you pull out of miles in their body, they're all breaking down, right? Kevin Love, broken down. Blake Griffin really broken down. All the Warriors guys are hurt. Kauai's kind of slowing down. And that's what you want or two is like in terms of being a young man's league.

Like the toll on these guys' bodies, it's deceptive because it seems like it'd be easier, but it's actually gotten more and more difficult. Right. We know way more about the science of the body, or at least other people do. I definitely do not. I've seen you

Justin, you look great. You're declared doing something right. Thanks, buddy. I actually went to a workout rowing class yesterday. That's my new thing after CrossFit didn't really go too well. We know more about that. And that's probably why, like, maybe a guy like Dirk who didn't take as much care of his body earlier in his career,

like, it probably didn't affect him as much. Maybe he could, like, just take the weight off during the middle of the season because not everybody was, like, in Cabo doing like workouts in this gym that they transported from like Seattle or something. I don't know what people do these days. Uh, so there's that. There's also the pace and the pace is pushing, is at historic highs. It's requiring people to run more. It's requiring people to be, uh, you know, play more in transition and, like, get back on defense more and all this other stuff. And also just like, people aren't playing as many minutes, right? And so you really do need to

maximize those minutes. And so I wonder if people go, harder in fewer minutes than they would have gone just like coasted a little bit more in more minutes in the 35, 38 sort of things. So it does feel like the league is harder. Yeah, that definitely checks out. Which I guess to top it all off. It makes what LeBron does all the more amazing. Totally. You know, he's turning 35 in a couple weeks. Right. By the way. He's still at the top of the league. Yeah, this is also turning into the most old guy question or conversation right now. It's basically like a bunch of 30-year-olds being like day and stuff on there. We're in our 30s now talking about these young guys, yeah.

Yeah, right. All right, let's wrap it there. We will be back next week for a little pre-holiday group chat edition. I think Charks is going to be traveling next week, so I think it's going to be me and Chris. But until then, for me,

for Charks, for Bobby Wagner, and from Chris, somewhere out there recording podcasts about other topics, perhaps music, perhaps movies. He's a very eclectic. He's just load managing, Justin. It's a long season. Indeed.

All right. We will see you next time. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.