The Ringer NBA Show - The Trade Machine Is Whirring: CP3, Jrue, and Bogdan Are on the Move. Plus: Possible Draft Pick Trade-Ups | The Mismatch

Episode Date: November 17, 2020

Verno and KOC run through the myriad gigantic after-dark trades that kept us all up last night, including Chris Paul to the Suns (1:27), Jrue Holiday and Bogdan Bogdanovic to the Bucks (11:34), and the fresh rumors that James Harden wants out of Houston (26:17). Then they get into some draft talk ahead of the NBA draft on Wednesday (50:29). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Kevin O'Connor on today's mismatch. Chris and I get into every single trade from this crazy day of NBA action we had with Chris Paul going to the suns, Drew Holiday, and Bogdan, Bogdanova's going to the bucks and the James Hardin trade rumors. One quick thing for the first 15 minutes, I had an audio issue, so you've got to hear my Zoom audio. My bad for that. So we'll talk about all that and get into the NBA draft at the end of the pod right now. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Climber, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'Candraterian, Kevin O'Candness, Kevin. Burdow, what's going on this morning after what a crazy night? What isn't going on this morning?

I cannot believe we have an NBA draft that is going on tomorrow night. Given what has taken place because it all just... feels so wild, there is a draft coming up tomorrow night, which we will comment on that. In addition to that, I got a mock out this morning. And it's like last night I was working on it. And then I was reporting out on other stuff. And then all these trades happen. And everything has to get swapped out and changed with the draft.

It's like, nobody else. Nobody knows. It's crazy. Well, one of the first things that comes to my mind, because we're going to get to the big trades first, is poor Dennis Schrooter goes to the NBA champions doesn't even get any amount of time before nobody cares about that trade

and I actually thought that was a great trade for the Lakers getting Dennis Schrooter but it's just so it's so far down the list that like when when the season opens and Dennis Schroeder comes off the bench for the Lakers people are going to be like Dennis Schrooter's on the Lakers

because within 24 hours, we found out, first things first, the Chris Paul deal. So Chris Paul ends up with the Phoenix Suns. Off the bat, I will tell you, I absolutely love this trade for Phoenix. I think this is brilliant. They did not give up extreme future assets. They did not give up DeAndre Aiton. They did not give up Miles Bridges. They didn't give up Devin Booker.

They gave up Ricky Rubio, which this is an extreme upgrade from Ricky Rubio at your point guard position. And they gave up Kelly Ubrey, who let's be fair. He wasn't in the bubble and they went undefeated. So they can obviously play without Kelly Ubray

and Bridges was great in the bubble. And I look at this and I go, all right, they upgraded a point guard. they can replace Ubre and this is this this turns them into a will they make a playoff team to I honestly believe a team that could fight for home court advantage. And I know that sounds insane on the surface, but I think when it's all said and done, if Chris Paul remains healthy and Devin Booker remains healthy, that this is a team that is

going to be extremely good as of next year. I'm just going to change my Zoom background for this if we put this on video on our YouTube page because right here on this photo shop I made months ago, I got 2022 NBA Aviance on there with Devin Booker and DeAndre and Holden trophies. Chris Paul adding him to the mix with Devin Booker and DeAndre Aiton creates a team that certainly could compete for home court advantage. And one of the reasons why I would say is because Booker, at worst, is like the 20th best player in the league. At worst, he might actually be like the 10th best player or the 12th best player or the 15th best player. And you had Chris Paul to

that, another guy who's a top 20, top 25 player, two top 25 guys in your team automatically puts you in that conversation to be a top 14 in your conference. Back to in DeAndre Ate, who gets better every single month. It seems like he's making progress on defense. Add Chris Paul's playmaking to what he can do offensively as a rim runner getting inside, scoring in the paint, scoring off dump offs, and has an expanding game shooting from outside. He started shooting threes in the bubble. Factor in all those wings you mentioned, McCale Bridges, everybody else they got. They still have the number 10 pick in the draft. They still have some flexibility to make additions, whether it's through, you know, their mid-level exception or whether it's through flipping

other guys in trades, they can get even better than they already are. This is a serious team that can contend for a top four seed in the West. Let me stop here real quick. If they want to unload that money, or let's say obviously they have the leverage of the pick, the Gallinari thing is a possibility. You know, I talked about where he could go. Could you imagine? And, you know, You mentioned Aiton. He is getting better. But to me, I look at this and I say, all of a sudden, it doesn't matter how good he is offensively.

Like, you're not counting on him being a 20 to 25 boy per game score. He doesn't have to be your second banana anymore. You know what I'm saying? Like, he's just a guy. And what you get out of him is an extreme bonus. I think Booker could average 30 points a game. I'm not kidding. I really do.

Playing next to Paul? I mean, it's ideal. It's ideal. Chris Paul makes you better. He throws you the ball in the pocket. Like, it's a dream scenario if you're Booker. I mean, he averaged 26.6, 2 years in a row. It's not outrageous that, you know, with more volume off ball,

that he could become more efficient. And this is why, you know, we've been doing the show. This is going to be our fifth season doing this. As long as we've been doing it, we joke around saying, bright future sons, you know, and how high I am on this team and how they, they've had different iterations. You know, everything that they had at the time when that started for us

during the 2016-17 season is gone, except for David Booker. Except for Denver Booker. But he was the source and the sole reason for that optimism because of the talent that he is. With Booker, I liked him in his draft back in 2015. And I thought he would be a star off-ball player, a guy who runs off screens for you and cuts and does a little bit on the ball. But what he was quickly turning into was a star on ball creator who was forced him to taking tough shots,

forced him to shot creating. And all that experience that he went through has turned him into a true top 10, top 15 caliber player. So you bring in a Chris Paul, a guy who is a proven star, one of the best playmakers the league has ever seen, and is still a very great player, as we saw last year in OKC,

We're going to see the best version of Devin Booker that we've ever seen because of what he could do off the ball. And Chris Paul and him can compliment each other so well. This is going to be James Hardin and Chris Paul, when those guys joined forces, people said, one ball. How is it going to work? It did work in the sense they went to a game six and a game seven against the Warriors. It did work in the sense that Hardin had some of the most historic offensive seasons we've ever seen. But I still think with Houston, the missing piece there was the lack of movement, the lack of passing and player movement off the ball, the lack of cutting.

And that's what Monty Williams and Phoenix has and what he always emphasizes. And so with Booker and Paul, Booker's not James Hardin as a player, but I think the dynamic can work even better with Booker and Paul, especially considering all the surrounding pieces that they have. Suns fans. I mean, Chris Paul might be old, but they should be ecstatic. I'm happy for them. Obviously, when we fought about that for all those years,

they pissed away season after season with Devin Booker who was already good. And they blew all those draft picks. It blew up. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, in theory, even if you want to argue that it was okay to keep on losing your ass every single year, whether it was Josh Jackson or Dragonbender or Alex Lenn or even go on and on, they just missed over and over again. hit on Aiton, even though obviously the Luca thing will always hang out there.

But I bring up the Gallo thing because, look, Paul and Gallo just carried Oklahoma City to a playoff spot. And I don't know how Gallinari feels about playing with Chris Paul, but I'd imagine he probably liked it okay, considering the level of success that he had. And so that's a possibility. That's out there. They got way better. I love the deal for them. Drew Holiday being acquired by the Milwaukee Bucks. Now on the surface. One other thing before we get to that. OKC getting what they did.

I mean, being able to flip, you know, being able to get all the first round draft picks you did, trading Russell Westbrook for Chris Ball. And then flipping Paul into more assets. I mean, kudos to them. Kudos to them. I mean, they played this perfectly. And Sam Presti.

I'm so excited to see what the Thunder do over the next seven years of all their picks. For those that aren't watching the video, you've got this background of a Booker and Aiton and you have these 2022 NBA champions pitchers on them. You need to get one with Sam Presti that says 2022 through 2027 NBA draft

because he has all of the picks. I think his end goal is that we're going to look up in like, in like, say, 2024, he is going to have every single pick of the first round. He's going to have all 30 picks. He'll just have the lottery. The Oklahoma City Thunder select the first 13 players of one of these drafts at some point. But he keeps on stocking up assets.

Sam Preston could get all three of these guys, Anthony Edwards, LaMobile and James Wiseman, if he really wanted to. Yes, he certainly could. Let's talk about Drew Holiday and the acquisition of him. Speaking of piling up traffic, they keep on doing it in New Orleans. David Griffin does. Drew Holiday gets moved. He, it is a huge call for Drew Holiday. It's a guy that has not been an all-star in a long, long time.

He is an outstanding player, maybe the best player, or certainly one of the top few players in the league that is a non-alleled. All-Star, right? He's kind of in that, for years and years, it was like that Andre Miller class, right? Outstanding player. Everybody knows he's an outstanding player. And I think a very good acquisition for the Milwaukee Bucks. That being said, I look at the hall that New Orleans got and I say this is great for their future. It makes them worse immediately, of course. For Milwaukee, this is what I'd say. I love this deal. And the reason I love this deal is because I do think Drew Holiday will make them better. But beyond that, most importantly, I think they will resign Janus because of these moves they've made. I think that if that's the cost of doing business, I think we have to put that into this equation. Because if you just look at the trade in and of itself, they gave up too much to get Drew Holiday. If they are going to sign Janus because of this Drew Holiday deal they made,

because of the Bogdan Bogdanovich deal that they made, then that is 100% a no-brainer. It's kind of like what we talked about last year with the acquisition of Paul George. Okay, the hall was too great. But if that means you get Kauai Leonard, then you make that deal. And I would look at it now, and I don't know how much. I don't know what percentage people would have put on it, but I bet you that within a couple of months,

Janice re-signs for the Supermax in Milwaukee, and we will look back on these deals, and they will say, it doesn't matter what they gave up. They kept Janus because they did that, because these players, they don't leave for funsies. They leave because they think they can't compete.

And if an organization goes out of their way, and they say, we are doing everything we can to build a contender, a team that has a chance at winning a title around you, these guys typically don't leave. They don't leave. It's when you don't. It's when Devin Booker looks up and he's played eight years in Phoenix

and he's not in the playoffs. It's when Anthony Davis has no chance at winning a title because they've been horrible building around them. This is what Minnesota is going through. or we'll go through with towns. Like you've got to build around these guys because after they're done with their second contract, yeah, they'll leave you.

But they're not leaving you if they think, if they think that you're doing everything you can to build around them. And so I think this, I think this solidifies that they will keep you honest. I really do. Yeah, I mean, Drew Holliday is one heck of a player. And he brings so much of what they need

with the defensive ability against multiple positions. He can defend guys bigger than him at a really high level as well as other guards, like in a series against the Brooklyn Nets, you know, having to contain Carrey Irving or against Boston with somebody like Kembo Walker, Drew Holiday is important. And with the complimentary offense that he brings is somebody who can do some playmaking for you and somebody who can play off ball for you and really is more comfortable off the ball with all his cutting and shooting, adding, you know, Bogdan Bogdanovich who they'll acquire any sign

and trade with the Sacramento Kings, as I, you know, reported last night that they were going for that. and then they got it done. They got it done. They got it done, but the Kings didn't get enough. The Kings didn't get enough. And that's weird. And I'm not sure what the logic is there necessarily. They get Dante DiGincenzo and second round picks.

I mean, whoopty do for Bogdanovich, who has won at every stage of his career, except in Sacramento because they can't seem to win. But he still managed to author some great moments. The game winner against the Warriors, the game winner against the Lakers, never mind all the titles and big games and awards, and awards and accolades he has from his career playing overseas this past decade.

Bogdanovich is a proven winner. And, like, Holiday, it almost goes without saying the impact that he can make with Bogdanovich, I feel like he's been an underrated player because he's been kind of just hidden in Sacramento. But this guy's a winner. Oh, I love him. He's going to have big, big moments for the Bucks this year. And like I said this last night to Bucks Rider, Bogdanovich is going to have moments this season that Bucks fans remember forever.

like he's that type of guy who just has those moments where he makes big plays. Like I say that I'm a Marcus Smart to all the time Bogdanovich is another guy. Like just some of those guys just have a knack for the moment. And Milwaukee got that guy.

I agree with you. And that's why if I'm on the other side, so I talked about, you know, if these guys feel like you're doing everything you can to build around them. So Booker now has that feeling. Janice now has that feeling.

I mean, the next one up is these guys like Deeran Fox and Buddy Heald, Bagley, if he comes back, you're looking around and going, what the, what the hell? You know what I'm saying? Because it's not just about if you were moving off of Buddy Heald or you were moving off of Bogdanovich because you're not going to pay both of them a fortune. Bro, you got to get more than that back. Yeah. You just have to get, I would have given up a first round pick for Baghdanovich.

I'm not kidding. I love him. I know. I know. I would too. And with Sacramento, I don't know if it's fair to even assess this without seeing what else they do. I mean,

like, did they want to keep buddy healed here? Did they have as buddy healed their preference? I don't really know here. Like, it's very possible. And as a report of last night, Atlanta was going to pursue him too for a restricted free agent and give him an offer

sheet. If the alternative for Sacramento was he signs a large offer sheet with Atlanta, of like over $20 million that maybe you don't want to match, maybe I kind of get it in that situation. But there's so much that we don't know that makes it hard to assess. But it's clear, like on the other side, for the bucks, why they do this. You know, it's unfortunate that they have to give up three first round draft picks and two first round picks pick swaps for Drew Holliday, who's a very, very good player,

but not an elite player. That's in a vacuum and outrageous return. and you do it 10 out of 10 times to keep Janus and increase your chances of resigning him long term because he's one of the greatest players of this generation. But it's just unfortunate that the market requires that. Like, if you're Janus, you understandably are so focused on today and now, but not having those picks down the line could hurt future moves.

It could. It's the LeBron playbook. It's just you do it every time. I'm just saying, like, in a vacuum, that's not what you give for Drew Holiday. Though I will add this, Chris, all day yesterday, the chatter around the league was that the Celtics were offering Gordon Hayward and their three first-round draft picks for Drew Holiday. That was the chatter all day yesterday until the Bucs landed him. So it's not like the Bucks weren't bidding against anybody. They weren't bidding against themselves. There was another team, I mean, and Atlanta, too, also wanted Drew Holiday.

there were other teams that wanted him. So there was a bit of a bidding war here where they had to go over the top. Well, and here's a thing, Kevin. That's what happens, man. I think you look at it and you go, you know what? This means we're going to keep Janus

because Janus now, I would imagine John Horst has been in contact with Janus about these things. Oh, yeah. Checking with them. Oh, John Vitchin Janus are buddies. Right.

Those guys are friends too. Okay. So two things here. Number one, if you sealed that up, you're going to be good for the next 10 years. Like, you just are. Like, I mean, if Janus is there, all right, fine. Let's make it shorter, six or seven, right?

So I'm not as concerned about those picks. Those picks are probably going to be 25 to 30 if I've got Janice on my team. Okay? So the first round picks, unless they were after Janus is done playing, like is the case with some of these guys, right? Like there's going to come a time where you can trade with somebody. Like say if Brooklyn gives up picks that are out a little further, like when after the Kyrie and Durant thing has run its course,

now all of a sudden those have extreme value. But you would have to give these out so far in advance for them to, for me to bet on those being anything other, the very low picks. Because if I've got Janus, I've got a chance at a title. The second thing is this. And just one thing with those picks, just we didn't say what years they are. Yeah. The picks are giving up the 24th pick in 2020.

No, so on Wednesday. They're also giving up unprotected first in 2025 and 2025 and 2027, as well as pick swaps in 2024 and 226. So they're giving up a lot. But, you know, and those picks are pretty far down the line. What are the chances that those aren't awesome? And what are the chances that those pick swaps even happen, that they have the higher pick than the belligans? And not to mention, let's say, Yannis leaves after his next contract

and they suck for the 2026, 2027 season, and that ends up being the number one pick. You would give up the number one pick to have another five years of Yannis, right? 100%. Yes. Yes, you would.

Yes, because as we know, and as the saying goes, you know, I heard Zach Lowe mentioned this, but picks are always great in theory. but it's like the car. The second you drive it off the lot, now all of a sudden, if I tell you,

hey, Kevin, I'll give you the number one pick. It sounds amazing. Now if I say, okay, we're making you a trade and it includes Anthony Edwards. That doesn't sound as good to you.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it just doesn't. Like, in theory, that pick. So here's what I'll say. A, great trade because I think this seals up, Yonis. B, look at the, those two trades, and I feel so bad for Sacramento fans, I really do, because look at those

two trades, okay? I don't think that the difference between Drew Holliday and Bogdanovitch is extreme. You know what I mean? Like, I put them both on that tier of, they're not all-star players, but they're outstanding basketball players who I'd love to have on my team, okay? And certainly deserve to be paid a lot of money. look at what the Pelicans got and look at what Sacramento got. I mean, it's different situations, but I understand your point.

I understand, but like, I don't buy that there was a competition for Bogdanovich. There was. So how the hell was that the best deal you can get? There's just no way. Atlanta, I reported that last night. Unless you love DeVincenza. The Bucks will pursue a sign of trade for Bogdan, Bogdanovich. Atlanta is also going to pursue a sign of trade.

What did they keep it up, though? That was the competition. Atlanta would have signed him to an offer sheet. So Atlanta wasn't going to try to trade for him. No, because they would have signed him to an offer sheet outright. And then Sacramento would have the choice, let him go for nothing or match the offer sheet. Keep him for whatever dollar value that money was. And by the way, Atlanta, right now, there's a lot rumbling, you know, around the league,

a lot of rumblings that they're going to throw money at either Dinello or Galanari or Contagius called El Pope or and or Rajan Rondo. because they, you know, they have a lot of pressure to get into the playoffs and compete for the playoffs. So they probably would have paid Bogdanovich a pretty penny. And again, this is why with Sacramento, we don't have all the information here. We don't know what Atlanta was going to try to pay him. They likely would have had to have paid more than what Sacramento would have wanted to give him.

And so for the Kings, yes, yes, they should have gotten more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they did get more than nothing. Oh, I agree. That may have been the only other option for them out there. That would have been, no, and I think that there's, if somebody set me down and said, look, man, we can't pay both these guys. Everybody knew we can't pay both of these guys.

And so we can't match their offer. Like, that's untenable. Totally get it. I would just argue, you can find somebody else that'll sign a trade for that kid. And you could have gotten a better haul than what you got. Maybe. But it is what it is. and you're looking down.

But they didn't have that leverage, though, is what I'm saying. Like, they couldn't say, we're going to sign and trade you to Dallas. What if Bogdanovich said, I don't want to go to Dallas? If that were the case, he would just sign the offer sheet in Atlanta. Yeah. Sacramento didn't really have the leverage here, Bogdanovich did. Yeah. And Bogdanovich chose to go to the bucks be a sign and trade.

I have a hard time knocking the Kings when we don't know everything, Chris. And like I said, it's likely he would have signed that. offer sheet with the hawks. And maybe in that case, the Kings would have been better off just letting them walk instead of matching it. So for them, we don't know all the details and at least they got a little bit. It's not great. We never know all the details of these deals.

Anytime a GM sits you down, it always makes sense. Trust me, I've lived this life. It's disappointing. Anytime there's a crap trade and a GM sits you down and then explains it away, you're like, oh, that makes sense. but in the end they didn't get enough for that kid in my estimation

and they didn't get enough and it's disappointing if you're a Kings fan that we can agree with for sure all right we got to get to the Hardin stuff because this was the bombshell that came out last night

about James Hardin and you had written an article about how Houston should not move James Hardin it seems like they don't have a choice anymore when a guy turns down well he turned down a hundred million dollars yeah they have a choice an extension.

And the message was clear, get me to Brooklyn. I heard Brian Winhorse talking about this, and it painted a much different picture than the narrative that has been out there. Evidently, throughout this offseason, James Harden has been working out with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant. These reminded me of stories of yesterday year

with LeBron and Wade and Bosch and these guys getting together. But anyway, that they've been working out together and that this idea came about. And he painted a picture that made it sound like James Hardin was not happy about what happened with the coaching search and ending up with Stephen Silas. Word got around that James Harden wasn't happy about all of this and that he was going to try to get out. And so Russell Westbrook jumped the gun and said, I'm trying to get out. you know, I mean, and there's no market really for Russell Westbrook, but we're going to find out what happens with James Arden.

And this is obviously an extremely tough spot if you are Houston or a Houston fan to hear about this. Because you have your star player turning down $50 million. So obviously he's not wanting to commit to you. He wants to go elsewhere. That news has already been made public. And then you have that whole thing about how you've got him working out. with the two other players, obviously being convinced that that's where he would like to go to be able to team up with them. I had never heard anything about him not being happy about the coach or Stephen Silas or whatever else.

But they got a thing going on there in Houston, and they got to figure this out. Because now I think, I don't know what the odds would be in Vegas, but James Hardin being on the Rockets next year, at least as of this morning, a recording, that feels like an extreme long shot. It's not a long shot. Why not? It's not a long shot. Because what's the incentive right here to make a deal now? They could wait during the season and potentially

have more opportunities to trade in for more than what Brooklyn can offer. What's the most Brooklyn can offer? They can offer all of their future first round draft picks, all of their pick swaps, Karas Levert, Spencer Didwitty, Jared Allen. That's like the most that they could offer.

And for Houston, I can see the logic because you know you're you'd be sending hard into a situation that yes would have championship expectations but it would also be a circus that has a high probability of just imploding with those personalities with kairie there with kate coming off a ruptured achilles all that like that has a high probability of failing and it's also a good year to suck because the 2021 draft has some serious potential superstar talents in it kate cunningham being the number one guy right now really everybody in the league has him number one jalen i mean there's next year's drafts this year you just said having number one doesn't appeal to you next

year if you tell me i have the opportunity to draft kate cunningham with the number one pick i'm jumping all over that with that said for the houston rockets is this the deal you really want to make right now or do you want to bring back a guy who is a top five top ten player in the prime of his career who right now today isn't unhappy right now today doesn't want to sign that extension but if you retool this team around him you make their smart decisions you make the right calls you have stephen silas revise the offensive system by incorporating some of what dallas did with lucca have a little bit more ball movement find a new a new actual big man don't have robert coverton there anymore now that he's been traded have a have a real big maybe in two months

James Hardin looks at the Rockets and he feels a lot better about where he is. If you're Houston, to me, before you blow it up, you got to give it a chance with Hardin because you don't just trade guys like that for offers that aren't no-brainers. And Brooklyn right now isn't offering a no-brainer. I got to do this. It's so overwhelming offer. It's just not there yet. It's got to be there.

It's got to be there. It's the Simmons, you know, our boss, his old, the four quarters don't make a dollar. Here's what I think. I think that maybe that Brooklyn deal, as we know what Brooklyn could include in that deal, right? And so that doesn't seem like a wise move if you are Houston. I think Philly and Daryl will come over to the top on this. That's my theory. Will Tillman for Ted to trade James Harden to Del Marry?

I've been told probably not. For Ben Simmons? I've been told probably. not that for Tito wouldn't trade you'd have to think about it you'd have to think about it I've been told probably not and I think more he would offer way more than just Ben Simmons but maybe but I've still been told unlikely that for Tito would trade him to mori that might have changed and well let me just throw this at you okay that might have changed after he turns down the 50 million and publicly says I want to be somewhere else you mean like two months from now no I'm saying I'm saying

that might have changed last night once Ward Janowski reports that. The other thing is this. Whenor said last night, he intimated, Darrell Morey knew this was coming. Of course he did. It's one of the reasons why he left. Well, that's why

it's Hardin wants out. Look, I don't want guys that don't want to be here. I don't. Yeah, but you also want to get the most you can get back for him. He has two years left on his deal and an option for another third year. I understand. You got to find the right moment to do it.

Are we likely heading toward a day in which we see a headline that Houston Rockets trade James Hardin? Yes, we're likely heading towards a day that that happens because everything I just said about building the right team around Hardin, it's very, very difficult to do with the lack of cap flexibility, the lack of assets. I mean, they're really up against it here. If Hardin wants to leave at some point, he's probably gone. but to me, I don't think this is the right moment to detonate the roster here unless there's that over the top,

over the welling offer. And to me, Brooklyn, the Brooklyn deal, it's good. If you get all of those picks, and I've heard they are throwing the kitchen sink at Houston for James Hardin,

all of it, all future picks, all pick swaps, and Laver and Didwitty. That's like, that's a really strong offer for a player who wants to leave. With that said, you just said how with all these picks the bucks gave up, you don't know

what that's going to be. Brooklyn would have picks in the 20s every year if this thing works. Yeah, but there's a, but that's a, A, it's a lot riskier and B, those guys are not the same age as, I agree. I agree. I agree. Right. Yonis, I look at that and I say, any picks within the next seven years, I'm okay, moving

off of. Bro, that thing could implode quick. And they could all end up going their separate ways. And so future picks from the Nets, you could have a, maybe not as extreme, but what happened yesterday year with the whole Garnett Pierce thing and you look up and the Celtics all of a sudden are getting unbelievable picks from the Nets. I mean, those guys are not the same age as Yonnes. And look, I mean, forgive me.

But I watch Kyrie Irving turn Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum into people that a lot of smart basketball people stopped believing in nearly as much as they did prior to. I agree. So I am unmotivated to believe that it's a no-brainer it would work because I watched that happen. I watch that happen with Kyrie Irving. And I get it that these are those friends and whatever, but they're all moody dudes. All of them are moody dudes. And beyond that, just the basketball thing,

like Jason Tatum was one of the best five to ten players in the entire NBA during the playoffs in the bubble. And we are a year removed from people talking about Jason Tatum trades. And like maybe he's not going to be what we thought he was going to be. Those people shouldn't have been talking about Jason's chain of trades. That was happening. That was happening.

You know what I mean? But like I said, this is the logic in doing it now. The logic and doing it now is that you're betting on Brooklyn to fail. You're betting on the fact that Katie, you know, post-Aquillies, Kyrie, James Hardin, and any supporting pieces they have around them being a horrible defense. That team would score a lot of points, but it would be hard for them to build a good defense. You're betting on that team imploding. You're betting on the fact Katie's coming off the injury.

You're betting on the fact Kyrie has a long injury history. You're betting on these things. Yes. You're Houston. And like I said, the incentive that nobody's talking about is the fact it's a good year to suck. This is a good year to tank. This is a good year to try to be bad. I've heard some teams out there that are on like the fringes of the playoffs are leaning

towards thinking maybe we should suck this year because of Kate Cunningham because of Jalen Green. Because of some of these other guys, you could see them rise into top five picks. and Evan Mobley, as I hear as Aaron Williams, there's so many guys in this year's draft that have appeal to be superstars. And Kate Cunningham, like I said, being probably that number one guy, Oklahoma State point guard. He's like sort of like a Ben Simmons style player. He does it all on the court for you. He's an awesome defender. Six, seven long can switch. Unbelievable passer can score. Cunningham's going to be a really good player. All right. Let me tell you this. But like that's what I mean. Houston, if you want to, you don't have to tank to get the number one pick because

of the new draft lottery odds, but it still benefits you to be the worst because you have the higher odds. So for Houston, I'm just saying, like, that's that you would get, if you trade him to Brooklyn for pick, a pick oriented deal rather than like say Ben Simmons, you're getting more than what you actually get in the trade. You're getting the, the privilege to suck. Well, and I, I love, I love Leverd. So, I mean, I don't think Levert is enough. thing. You know what I'm saying? I really do. He's not. He's not. Okay. And neither is Dinwiddie. Like you, if you wanted to, if you wanted to flip Dinwiddie during the season, you could.

Yeah. He's a solid player. And Karis LaVert is, you know, I mean, he's, he's a good player. He's 26 years old. He was awesome in the bubble. Yeah, good player. Yeah, good player. And he was their best player. And when he wasn't playing with Kyrie Irving, imagine that. He was even better. Um, so here's the thing. And you are going to go ahead, and like hold on to something, hold on to your chair or whatever. Because I am, I think there are going to be, look, there are going to be a lot more teams, like I said,

competing to win, and especially if your opportunity at being a playoff team is expanded to 10. There will be a select amount of teams that do what you say, okay, which is just suck on purpose in order to get a high draft pick, which I am almost, in fact, I'm almost across the board, never in favor of. That being said, if there were ever a year, and it is not because of, you know, the promise of Cade Cunningham and Jalen Green and whatever, if there were ever a year where I would say, you know what, go ahead, it would be this one.

Because you ain't shitting on your fans. You are the ones that want to watch you on TV, but nobody's going to be at these games anyway. So your home fans that spent money on season tickets, they don't have to endure this and be miserable every game night of their life. And your fans that are fans of opposite teams don't have to watch a miserable punting product for no reason. If there were ever a tank year, this is it, Kevin. And I would actually say, hey, go ahead. There's nobody. It's going to be spending money on this anyway because I have always thought,

that yes, it's terrible for culture. Yes, it's terrible for acquiring players. But beyond that, I hate the idea that your fan base typically has to endure that, right? People that really care and love. And a lot of people, you'd be surprised, a lot of people don't get it. I've been in an arena for a 20-win team, and they're still mad. And the little kids walk out upset that their team lost, and they don't understand that they're losing on purpose.

And I think it's a terrible message to send. But there's nobody in the arenas this year anyway. So who gives a shit? Go ahead and lose every game. I was in Houston, New Year's Eve, 2016. And James Harden scored like 58 points with like 17 assists and 16 rebounds. And yeah, I know it was New Year's Eve. But out in that arena, I never would have felt that he was having such a historic night.

The arena is not always packed there, even when fans are allowed. and that's with having a guy like James Harden. I think that's, you know, if you're a hardcore Rockets fan, like, you know, my good friend, Sean Yu is who works at the ringer and works on our video staff. Like, if you're a hardcore Rockets fan, you look around the crowd and it's like, why are there empty seats when we have a guy like James Hardin? Why? And for them, I feel like the hardcore fans understand.

And I get a casual fan, you know, a young fan. They might be like, you know, this is disappointing. But I've always said this to you, Chris. This is where we differ in our views on, like, fandom. Growing up, rooting for the Celtics, the 0607 season still remains one of my funnished years watching the Celtics. And that team, I loved watching the development. I loved watching Tony Allen get better.

I loved watching Rajan Rondo's rookie year. I love seeing all these guys improved. I loved watching Ryan Gomes. I loved watching Alan Ray before the year, a year before getting Ray Allen. And I liked seeing Paul Pierce, you know. even though there was a possibility he would be traded. I just liked watching the Celtics that year. And I liked the idea of the potential of getting Greg Oden or Kevin Durant and the draft.

I'll always remember the disappointment on draft night of not being of the lottery night, not getting that top pick. But that year was still exhilarating for me as a fan just watching players get better. And if you're, if the Rockets do blow it up here, I think those hardcore fans who are so plugged into the team understand why. There's disappointment and sadness that you're losing a star like James Hardin. Because at the time when I was a Celtics fan, you know, I had Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker in my life with the good Celtics teams. Those guys aren't the level of James Hardin and Russell Westbrook or James Hardin and Chris Paul.

They don't love him. It's not the same connection though with that fan base. It's really not. It's not like peers. And it's not like there are. There is a fringe. I mean, I had a I had one of the big sports. Because the Celtics drafted Pierce when he was a kid. You know, Hardin was traded for.

To wit, about three years ago, I had one of the biggest sports talk host in Houston on with me. And I said, who is the fan favorite? Who is the most popular player on the Rocket? And he said, Patrick Beverly, it's without question. That's the one that the fans, you know what I mean? Don't you feel like Rockets fans would respond well to a young team that's, you know, competitive? It's not like they're losing games on purpose. No, I didn't say they wouldn't respond.

I just don't feel bad. I just don't feel bad for fan bases that are losing because it's like there's still a lot to root for with development. I feel bad for I feel bad for fan bases that are losing for a decade, you know, with no hope because they have bad management. Those are the, those, that's what I feel bad for. And Houston could turn into that because of Furtitta. They could, but they're not that yet. If I'm a Houston fan, I would say the hardened things run its course. I'm fine.

I would. I would say it's run its course. We had a lot of good years. I have some good memories. I have some memories of him. going two for 11 and getting beat 114 to 75 on his home court. You hate hard and everybody gets it.

Everybody gets it. And I hate that we have tried to pair him up with a million players, all of which he ends up. I mean, they've done everything they can for the guy. Everything. Okay. It's run its course,

but it is now the moment to take a deal or do you go into the season? Give it a try. Because it never goes well when you trade a top five, top 10 player in NBA history. It never goes well. do you give it a chance and then still probably take that same trade that would still be on the table two months from now? Yeah, that's what I would do. Even if it means one less first round pick or one less pick swap, I'd rather take it into the year.

You think you'll get better. The deal could get better. That's what I'm saying. You've got to go into the year. The deals could get better. There can be more teams that throw everything at you where you have your choice to pick what you want to do because you don't have to send James Harder and where he wants to go. You don't have to send him to Brooklyn. You could send him to the highest bidder.

He has two years left on his contract. And then a third year with a player option for $45 million. You don't have to send him to Brooklyn. The player empowerment era has created this perception and media and with fans that are you got to do what the player wants. No, you don't. That's not how business works. That's not how the NBA works. What's going to happen is the player, the player Hardin wants Brooklyn.

The question will be, do all. teams, do the other 28 teams on the league decide, we know he wants to go to Brooklyn. Should we try to trade for him now? Like, okay, see, for Paul George, even though we wanted to go to L.A., like all these other teams are over the years, that's the question that's going to be asked. We'll see what happens. They should trade him to Charlotte. Houston should play it slow, in my opinion.

I mean, I get it. I get the logic of taking the Brooklyn deal now. Like I said, it's a great year to suck. That's an incentive. Brooklyn could could implode. That's a good incentive. I wonder if you're leverage. But to me, you can get better deals.

You can get better quality if you wait. I wonder if your leverage does go down, though. You know there is that possibility. Not with that money time left on this deal, I don't think. Maybe not. I mean, with Kauai, there was a year left. With Kauai there was a year left. They clearly did not get great return for Kauai.

Oh, I'm saying. Dude, the spurs got DeMard Rosen. And they gave up, Dini Green. the deal too. They got Jacob Pernel and DeMarter Rosen compared to what all these other teams are getting for 80, Drew Holiday, what we're talking about. That's what I'm saying, but life

is leverage. Unreal. They blew that. And once you, once you decide that this is untenable, you know what I mean? And word gets around. This guy wants out. This guy wants out. I'm not sure the deals get better. I'm not sure they

get better. If everybody knows you need to move him, that there is this level of discontent and there's these headlines hardened wants out. I'm not sure at that point the deals get better because we saw the deals get progressively worse with Kauai because people knew he didn't want to be in San Antonio anymore. You know what I mean? And so that's what I'd worry about. I think he's going to get traded. I do. I think he's going to get traded. I feel you on that. And I think there's a point, there's a point where the deals do get worse. And I would bet that's after the trade deadline.

I would bet the deals would get worse next off season than they are right now or that they would be at the deadline. I would bet on that because then there's only one year left. Right now there's two. Do you get this season and next season plus possibly a third season because of the player option? The deals do get worse at some point. I'm just not sure that point is there right now.

You know, I don't think that clock starts when the season begins. I think that begins after the deadline passes. So they have until then to maximize a return. Let's turn back the clock just for a second on this last thing on the trade thing, because I did forget this in our discussion about the bucks. And it has to be mentioned. So, Kev, like, if we turn back the clock a year, okay? And I tell you that the Milwaukee Bucks,

because this test, I'm telling you now that I think that the Drew Holiday and the Bogdan Bogdanovich acquisitions are going to ensure that they keep you honest. That's great. And of course, it's a no-brainer at this point. But we do need to take a step back and say, would you rather have Malcolm Brogden or Drew Holiday? It's a question, right? I mean, you'd rather have Drew Holiday.

But it's a question. It's not. The real question is, would you rather have Malcolm Brogden and a whole bunch of first-round draft picks or Drew Holiday? Yeah. That's the question. Yeah. It's probably Malcolm Brogden.

I've got a whole bunch of draft picks. So, I mean, they could have kept him. They could have kept him. You know what I mean? I mean, this was necessitated in the, oh, God, we've got to build around Janus. We've got to prove to him. We're doing everything we can to win. But you did have a good all-star caliber defensive-minded point guard that was on your team.

All-star caliber is pushing it, but I feel you. Didn't he make the all-star team? Or he was right on the cusp. I mean. Brogden? Brogden's a hell of a player. He's a good player, but all-star caliber. I mean, he's good.

He's one of few players in NBA history that went 40, 50, 90 for a season. He's a good player. Really good. I love Brogden. Yeah. I mean, he's Drew Holiday level. He's true holiday level. He's not true holiday.

Drew Holiday is one of the best defensive guards of the last 10 years. Malcolm Brogdon's not. Brogden is probably a better offensive player. So, I mean, they're different, different offensive player. I don't think it's an extreme difference between the two. And they could have kept them. It's maybe like the 30th best player and like the 55th best player, something like that. 55th.

Come on. Yeah. 50th best player is really good. Yeah. The league's deep. Who's like else in that category? Like I think I'm higher on Prague. Like Deeran Fox, Shingiel just Alexander.

I mean, that's probably in that general category. I mean. I just don't think that the difference is. I don't think the difference between those two is extreme and it does at least, you know, the fact that you had him and didn't get, and he just walked a year ago and now you turn around to try to get a point guard and you have to give up all of these picks to try to prove you're willing to win with Janus. To me, it at least has to be mentioned because that was, I thought the Brogden thing was a mistake. It was a mistake. It was a mistake. But I do think that what they did now will end up ensuring that Janus stays in a buck's jersey.

Let's talk about the NBA draft because that is so far on the back burner now. It's crazy. Like NBA fans are just eating up all of these rumors and talks and everything else because this feels like the trade deadline. It really does. And then we're about to have a draft go on tomorrow night. And it's so like it's just. been so overshadowed by this player movement so far. What are you hearing on the NBA draft, your new mock draft? It seems like, you know, boy, that Lamello thing got big for about half a

second. Now he's a little bit lower in some other drafts. But if you had to bet, do you think that when Adam Silver goes to the podium that he will say Anthony Edwards is the number one pick? I bet on that. Who knows? I mean, I bet on Anthony Edwards, and that's sort of the assumption that they'll go with him there. He makes most sense from a positional fit standpoint with the Angela Russell and Carl Anthony Towns. He makes the most sense from a potential standpoint as a versatile wing, as a guy who's a score-first guy for you, can get to the rim. He can't. He can't.

He's allergic to free throws. Edwards, to me, should be the guy there, and I think he will be the guy. the question is is what happens with the variable of trades is there a trade that tries is there a team that tries to get up to number one will charlotte try to get wiseman at number one it's gold and states interested wise minute at number two just a smokescreen nobody knows nobody knows like let's let's be honest here like everybody i talk to around the league they don't know they don't know what's going to happen because the variable of more trades like you just said chris i would love though who was your guy a couple months ago, the best thing ever would be if Adam Silver walked to the podium, it said with the first pick, the Minnesota Timor will select Killian Hayes, France. Who knows? We do think we know the first three picked.

We'll see what order. Maybe. No? You don't think so? Maybe. We, we, this, this draft reminds me so much of 2013 when Anthony Bennett went number one. And nobody knew where Nerlans Noel was going to go. Nobody knew where Victor Oladipo was going to go.

That was a weird draft. No certainty. This year, like I said, I've been saying this for months. Is there a prospect that ends up shocking everybody and goes in the top three, top four, top five? Because right now in my mock that's up today on the ringer.com, you can see it at NBA draft. Theringer.com. I have pretty much the same top three that I had last week with Edwards to Minnesota, Wiseman to Golden State, Okongwu to Charlotte.

And then I have Lamello to the Bulls at four. And then I have Denny Avdia to the Cavaliers at five. If Lamello falls to four, or even if he is at three, there's a possibility that Charlotte trades up. There's a possibility that New York trades up. There could always be a sleeper team that trades up into that spot, whether it's for Lamello or for James Wiseman or for Deni Avdia. There's just so many variables right now that we can't.

find the answers to because those that works itself out on draft night when teams are on the clock and they have a deadline and they have to make a choice that's when stuff happens right now it's just all you know rumbling and you know this kev um you bring up that that draft with oladipo draft that morning i i remember this vividly a lot of the mocks had ben macklemore going number one Yep. A lot of them. I remember that too. A lot of them had been McLemore going number one. And I've covered, whatever it is, 20 drafts. All of them have had something happen where you're like, what in the world is going on. And sometimes, look, the year that Westbrook went for, that shocked everybody. You know, they said with the fourth pick, the Oklahoma City Thunder or Seattle Sonics, whatever it was at the time. select Russell Westbrook number four because he went, Kevin Love was, I believe, the next pick. He was the next pick, right?

And O.J. Mayo had gone right before. But the Westbrook thing. I remember the Jalen Brown thing, shocking everybody. Like, people couldn't believe it. Like, if you go back to that day, maybe right leading up the people in Boston had gotten word that that might could happen. But you go back.

Brown pick, right? I actually went back to the mocks. Well, you got tipped off. Maybe, maybe not. I went back and looked and most of those mocks, they had like Chris Dunn or Dragon Bender. Almost none of them had outside of people in Boston had Jalen Brown anywhere before like 8 to 10. Anybody could go back and look up the mock drafts, which I have before. But there's always that Westbrook, Jalen Brown, some kind of, a moment where it's like, oh, wow, this is a lot different than the mocks. And so it could happen where tomorrow night we look up and they say with the third pick, the Charlotte Hornet select Tyrese Halliburton, Iowa State or something. And everybody would be like, whoa, hold on now. Like, this changes everything. Like, I don't know what kind of odds you could get on getting the top

five right, but I would say should be a million to one because I, no idea. I just pulled up Chad Ford's 2013 mock draft his final one. He had neurodial. Orleans, Noel going to the Cavaliers. Wow. At 7.15 p.m. So 45 minutes before the draft. Like, that was a day where nobody knew. Yep.

It was, it no well, you know, like he even right wrote in there. Noel has been my top pick in every mock from 1.0 to 7.0. The cavaliers have yet to tap their, tip their hand, various theories about Cleveland's attachment to Noel, Alex Lan, Anthony Bennett, Ben McLemore, Auto Porter, and Victor Olipo abound. And it doesn't that sound like Golden State at two? where we're hearing about all these different prospects that they could take. Doesn't that sort of sound like Charlotte at three where it's like, is it Okongru or a Wiseman? Or could it be Lamello?

That's what it is. What Chad Ford wrote in 2013 for Cleveland at number one is what it is for every team drafting in the top five right now. It's that. It's that uncertainty where we don't know and there could always be a surprise pick, whether it's a Patrick Williams, whether it's a Tyrese Halliborne or Killian Hayes. I mean, I'm going to, my final mock is going to have Edwards. It's going to have, it's going to have Wiseman number two. And I might be wrong. I'm okay with that.

I'm okay with that. I'm not trying to get this 100% right. This is the hardest one to predict ever. Yeah, it's constantly changing. We also didn't see any of these guys. You know what I'm saying? The opinions are much less people were asking me, are you going to do your, your can't miss thing?

And I was like, you know, like, I didn't get to see conference tournaments. I didn't get to see the NCAA tournament. I mean, there is so much less sample size on this than ever before. Because I did always like to see these guys in their biggest games. And, you know, with that season getting cut short like it did, I think it is a harder evaluation, certainly, than in the past, because usually guys do rise and fall a lot based upon what happens in conference and NCAA tournament play.

if there is one of these guys like that does the Jalen or Westbrook or whoever that just totally crashes the party, do you think it is like a Halliburton or, I mean, Patrick Williams obviously is skied up there or an Obdia or like, is there anybody that you would, you would think is more likely to crash that top three party than. Yeah, I think those guys, maybe Obie Topping. Interesting. The Dayton big man, somebody like him, you know, I could see those guys. Maybe. What's happened? I don't know.

Maybe like a Sadiq Bay goes top eight, you know, like, like, I'd be surprised. I think he's a late lottery guy, but who freaking knows, dude? Well, you'll love this story. The first draft I ever covered. The first draft I ever covered there was. Don't need yourself, Chris. Don't age yourself. I know.

The team had just moved. Memphis. The seasons, they're about to have their 20th season. They had just gotten the team. Oh,

were 10 years old? They made a trade. Yeah, I was. I was 10. They made a trade for Sharif Abdulaheem to Atlanta.

Okay? So they moved off of that and they acquired the number three pick. And they took Powell Gasol. And I remember us all being in the room

going, who the hell? Because it was like, no, because at that time, it's a different world now. It's a different world. Nobody goes who the hell now, right? That is forever ago. It wasn't the same in terms of information and mock traps and everything else. You probably

didn't know how to pronounce his name. No. It's like, I was like who because. Like gasoline. Well, and. Power, Po. That's what you would be saying back then. Now he's a household name. Now Alexei Pokushchevsky. Everybody knows how to say that name. Fifth, fifth, fifth pick was Jason Richardson and the sixth pick was Shane Batier, which was actually the Grizzly's own pick, which they, so they took Shane Batier. Everybody knew Shane Badier, just been player of the year, won the national title, all that kinds of crap.

But that's, you know, 20 years ago, and that was, I will never forget that. Like, you just got in a team, and it's like, who? They just took a 19-year-old guy that didn't even play a lot of minutes for FC Barcelona or whoever. I mean, it was crazy at the time. But the information was so lacking.

So, I mean, this stuff has been happening for a long, long time. But now we have so much more information about all of these guys. It will still be mega fascinating. And if somebody crashes the party, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. You know, I mean, we are more educated NBA fans. We are more cultured American basketball fans now. And it's a type of thing where the drafts, it is something that people eat it up, man. And like, I'm thankful for that because it's something that I always loved growing up.

It's something that I built the NBA and NFL draft. I was always plugged into, you know, through my, you know, even really since I was like 12, 13 years old. And it's so cool to see the amount of interest out there that people have in learning over these prospects before they ever at the, and before they ever entered the NBA, before they ever do. There's nothing more fun than rookies. It's just, you know, the ones that,

the hope springs eternal on this stuff. And, I mean, there I was on Sunday in the afternoon with my son. And we are locked in to dolphins versus chargers. Like in what world

would that ever happen? Except that we're watching to a tug of Ilova and we're watching Justin Herbert. And it is so fun because you only get to do that, right, one time. And then, you know, everybody starts, once you do everything as a rookie, then you move, as time goes on, you end up, you know, poking holes in all these guys as time goes on. I will tell you that the only thing I did post a little, a couple notes about the draft yesterday.

And I do have to mention this because we're not going to get to talk about the draft. you know, I went back and I queued up a show that we did in April where you and I talked about four prospects and we told people to go look them up and I went to go see if those guys had moved up. Now, two of mine are not even in the draft. They went back to school. Two that I mentioned. The other two were Grant Riller from Charleston, who I think is still entirely too low on everybody's list. And the other one, and he did not move up. And I am shocked.

And so when you hear his name in the draft tomorrow night for everybody out there, I did mention this guy in April. I have not heard anybody talk about him or write about him, nothing. The guy amongst all the YouTube and everything videos that I watched, where I went, hold up phone. This guy is so much better than the people I've watched before him. Is this guy from Barcelona and Argentina? Leandro Balmorrow.

Yeah. I love him. I really do. I think this guy is a much better basketball player than, I think, I'm looking up now. You've got him 26 on the mock draft. 26? I think he'll end up going a lot higher. No, I mean, should have, should have gotten a lot.

He won't go a lot higher. In the end, he, he, he, that'll be too low. 6.7 playmaker. Yep. size and shot creation ability. The question with him is going to be what level does the jump shot reach. I also had somebody call me last thing

a couple days ago, so keep an eye on this name. And we have never talked about him, so I don't know if you like him a lot. But boy, they really convinced me on Malachi Flynn. Oh, yeah, Malachi Flynn. First round pick potentially. San Diego State, solid, steady, reliable, veteran-esque rookie, you know, with the style

he plays with. I mean, in the dreams of the team that drafts the same. In the dreams of the team that drafts, it is new core. It is funny. When San Diego State, he was all defensive team, all this crap. And I was like, hey, maybe he's the new Kauai. Who knows? All right.

I can't wait for tomorrow night. And obviously, things are going to get crazy over the course of the next 48 hours. Either way. Kevin, we will reconvene on Friday. And I think you're doing a draft show on Thursday, right? Yeah, Chris. We got a lot coming up this week. on Wednesday, I'm going to be going on the ringer's Instagram live at noon Eastern answering

draft questions. And then we got a live draft show before the draft with me and Ryan Rusillo. And I believe we're having Bill Simmons on with me and Ryan. After like the middle of the first round, maybe around pick 20, something like that will be going live. And then Thursday morning, me, Jake Almanan and Jonathan Sharks are going to be doing a draft reaction show. and it's probably going to be like a trade reaction show too because we're definitely going to get some moves that night. So then we'll be back on Friday. God,

we've got it a time. Thanks to producer Sasha as always, and we will talk to you on Friday.