The Ringer NBA Show - The Trevor Ariza Trade That Wasn’t, Then Was | Heat Check (Ep. 355)

Episode Date: December 17, 2018

A three-team trade centered on the Washington Wizards acquiring Trevor Ariza falls through in dramatic circumstance and is reincarnated in altered form (4:21): The Phoenix Suns receive Kelly Oubre Jr. and Austin Rivers while the Memphis Grizzlies keep the status quo (30:36). Host: John Gonzalez Guest: Joe House, Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of He Check is brought to you by Yahoo Daily Fantasy. Yahoo Daily Fantasy had such a great year. They are giving you a taste of what 2019 looks like. With a $1 million fantasy football contest, someone will take down $100,000 for first place. One in four people who play will double their money. That's not a bad way to end the year. There's a limit of 10 entries per player.

So play is fair and everyone gets a shot. Don't miss this contest. Go to yahoo.com. Daily Fantasy, use promo code Yahoo 25, the number 25, when you make your first deposit for $25 in free play. Welcome to Heat Check. I'm your host, John Gonzalez. Join us I am every week by our producer, Isaac Lee.

What's going on ice? We had our ringer holiday party. I saw you. You were very festive and handsome and well-dressed. I meant to tell you a story, though, at the party, and then we got lost because there's a lot of people. Right. So before the party, I was out in Santa Monica. I was doing a little holiday shopping, right?

And I'm walking across the street. And I hear, like, I have my headphones in, so I'm not, like, really paying attention. I guess this guy had been, like, calling after me. And it turned out it was a heat check listener. Oh. Who recognized. It's not a story about me being recognized. That never happens.

I had a Sixers shirt on. Celebrity Guns. I had a Sixers shirt on. And he was like, oh, hey, are you, John Gonzalez? And I said, yes. And so we started talking. And he wanted to give us some constructive criticism about the program. And he started telling me that, like,

he would prefer that we, I don't know where he got this. He goes, talk a little less Sixers, he told me, right? And he said too much on the NBA show, we have sort of an East Coast bias. And he mentioned Simmons,

and he mentioned Chris Ryan, and he mentioned, like, how we talk a lot of Celtics too. And I'm like, these are all fair points. And he started saying to me, he wants us to talk more Clippers. Okay?

And he, like, broke this down. He's got clippers season tickets. And he's going on about Jerry West and how, like, Jerry West is really smart. And SGA is good. and Tobias Harris is having a good season. And he's like deep diving into Doc's decision making.

Wow. Like this guy really knows what he's talking about. Did he just run into me on Santa Monica? It was basically you. So I'm like, okay, this guy like, he pulls me aside. He's making really good points. All of these are fair, right? So I'm like, okay, I'm going to take this all under advisement.

And he's on a bicycle, right? He's just leaning up on his bicycle. So he gets on his bike and he starts to bike away. So I shout after him, hey man, go Clippers. And he looks back at me, doesn't stop, just keeps going. But it looks back and he goes, oh, I'm not a Clippers fan. I'm actually a Lakers fan. And I'm like, I'm like, this is perfect.

That makes it even better. So shouts to Dave, Dave, Dave is his name. Dave had a lot of really good points. No shouts to Dave, actually. Dave, the actual Lakers fan. It's incredible. What the heck? It was incredible.

Way to go, Dave. I want to say to Dave, thanks for listening. Thanks to the rest of you for listening. please rate and review all of us here at the Ringer NBA show if you wouldn't mind. And also please check out all of our great content on the Ringer.com. We've got Zach Kram on what the NBA schedule tells us about who's real, what's real and what's not. We've got Palo on the three-team trade that didn't happen and the two-way trade that did happen between the Sons and the Wizards and the Grizz who got left out. We've got KOC's early primer for NBA trade season.

And this is not about the NBA, but I highly recommend it. Michael Bowman went and wrote about Gritty, the Flyers mascot, and everybody in Philadelphia is absolutely over the moon for him, as is the Internet. So please go read that. But we're going to break down all of the Friday night madness about the trade that didn't happen, and then the trade that did happen. Charks will be here later on in the program to do the Sons and the Grizzly side. But first, we need somebody to do the wizard's side.

And who else would we possibly bring in than the guy who's one of our favorites here at He-check. Let's do it. All right, joining me on the other line. As luck would have it, as Providence would have it, we had him scheduled already to appear on this program today. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, the NBA gifted us the perfect topic for him from House of Carves and Shack House. Everybody get ready for this.

It's Joe House. We are the champions, my friends. I mean, we, we, did you see what happened, Gonzo? I was, yeah, I was texting with you and I thought to myself, we're going to need, we're going to need to strap him down and maybe. As long as you don't want to put me in a straitjacket, as long as you're not trying to lock me up, put me in a room with soft walls. Yes, we were going to, we're going to have to like buckle him down because there's no way

that he's going to be able to do this normally. This is a lot. A lot of things happen with this trade that didn't happen with the Wizards and the Gris and the Suns on Friday. And then the trade that actually did happen afterwards with just the Suns. And the whiz, which one do you want to do first? Do you want to do the deal that didn't happen or the deal that did? Well, let's first celebrate.

It's such a rare occasion. I can't remember the last time I had this opportunity. My hometown team, the local almost bullet, won the NBA Friday night. That was our 82 and O. Can never be topped. The Bulls, the Warriors. You could talk about dynasties and legacies. That was the apex of the Grunfeld air.

the entire nation got to celebrate everything that this Washington Wizards franchise has brought to the table over the past 15 years. It was a glorious moment and I could not have enjoyed it any more, Gonso. It was incredible. You know how much I love the Wizards and their drama and they're never ending tomfoolery and how they can't get out of their own way. But this was an absolute all-timer. Let's just walk through it. We'll go through it chronologically. So on Friday night, there was a report that there was a three-team deal about to be done between the Wizards, the Grizz and the Suns.

the deal would have sent a Riza and a 20-20-second round pick plus a conditional 20-19 second round pick to the WIS. The Gris would have gotten Kelly Ubrae, and the Sons would have gotten, and here's the sticking point, either Marshawn Brooks or Dylan Brooks. Now, the Sons thought that they were getting Dylan Brooks, the Gris thought that they were giving up Marshawn Brooks,

and somewhere in there, the WIS were just like, I don't know. And apparently, according to Memphis, general manager Chris Wallace, he said that they did all their dealing through Ernie Grunfeld and the Wizards as the conduit. And the Wizards say that's not true. They say that between them and the Suns, there was no confusion. But the Gris say that there was very much confusion. And here's where it gets really crazy. Memphis General Manager Chris Wallace went on the record and said,

our front office also didn't have any conversations with Phoenix regarding the reported three-way trade prior to it leaking during our game on Friday night. We were floored to learn of the reports involving Dylan Brooks and the reported trade. We never discussed Dylan as part of this trade with Washington, which was the only team we spoke with concerning this proposed deal. Bus meet Ernie Grunfeld. Ernie, get under it because Chris Wallace just threw you there. It's incredible. I've never seen one general manager throw another general manager under the bus publicly like that. Well, this whole thing, this whole episode deserves an oral history.

I mean, somebody needs to really break this down. and there's going to be some forensics. We need evidence. We need investigation. Somebody needs to sit down and go moment by moment here because there is reported story out there that flatly contradicts what Chris Wallace is saying. Other entities out there,

the athletic has flatly reported without hesitation, reservation, equivocation of any sort. No caveats whatsoever gone. So they just flat out report that the Grizzlies and the sons were having conversations that preceded Friday night and that the name on the table was simply Dylan Brooks and that was it.

So somebody's telling the truth and somebody is lying unless the athletic reporting is inaccurate, but I'm inclined to give the athletic the benefit of the doubt for now. But let's quickly focus on the beauty. The woe's quote that really was so glorious Friday night, Memphis and Phoenix didn't communicate directly on the trade using wine. Washington as a conduit in coordinating the three-team deal. Look, Gonzo, using Washington as a conduit, that's how Philip Rivers has nine kids. I mean, what are we talking about here?

It's absolutely fantastic. This all led to Woj tweeting out, the deal is dead, which sent NBA Twitter into an absolute frenzy because at first it was, hey, there's a deal. And then it was, oh, wait, it's Marchion, not Dylan. and then other people reporting, no, no, it's supposed to be Dylan, not Marshawn, and how this might lead to the deal falling through. And everybody was like, no, no, no, it's not going to fall through.

I mean, like, they're not going to hold it up over which Brooks it was. And we're going to get to later on in the program when Charks joins us, you know, the difference in the two Brooks and how talented Dylan Brooks may or may not be and whether or not the Grizzly should have blown up the deal over it. But it all led, all this confusion led to an actual deal falling through. And then on top of that, all this, like, infighting, which is just absolutely incredible. I've never seen anything like it.

I've never seen a deal creator like this. I've never seen general managers go at each other like this. And then on top of that, you know, the Wizards obviously were hot after Areza, who they then go out and do an actual deal the next day. They cut the gris out of it. Fantastic. Love it. Super petty.

Excellent. They get Eriza for Ubre and Austin River. So the deal finally goes through. How do you feel about it? We're talking about the Wizards. So it's the most Wizards deal ever, right? It is taking an asset in the form of Ubre and trying to make a judgment about peak value of that asset because the franchise has already made the determination that they're not going to be able to resign him because of past sins, right? They can't afford to spend the kind of money that Ubre is going to command as a restricted free agent as he enters this upcoming off season, the 2019 off season.

He's going to get a deal sheet from somebody that. Wizards are not going to be prepared to match it because they have to pay guys like Beal and Wall and Porter. And Jan effing Mahinme who can't get off the bench now. Now, I'm not going to say a bad thing. This isn't about Jan. Because again, Gonso, Jan Mahemmi's Christmas display is absolutely marvelous. I went to the Lakers' whiz game last night. I made the folks that drove me drive by Jan's house on the way home so we could all admire that.

I want you to send me pictures of this because I think about it all the time. Tis the season. Tis the season. Tis the season. And that might be his biggest contribution to the greater DC area. Well, he can't get off the bench. It's Christmas decorations. It's his only contribution.

But because of that multitude of sins, Ubre was on the trading block this trade season, as it were, for the Wizards. And who knows whether or not the Wizards could have done better than Arisa in terms of value. The thing that this RISA deal amounts to is, again, a confession by the franchise, again, an indictment on John Wall principally, but really Wall and Beal and their ability to lead the team to be guys that are, you can galvanize a team around, you can build around. This is a move intended to bring an adult into the room because I guess Jeff Green isn't a forceful enough personality. well so the Wizards the Wizards obviously very excited about this trade go out and as you mentioned you were at the game

without Trevor Areeza just waiting for him to show up go out and blow the doors off of the poor Los Angeles Lakers got throttled by John Wall we've we've disparaged John Wall quite a bit on this program and the Wizards quite a bit on this program John Wall had a night 40 points and 14 assists and goes out there he's he's clearly just showing Trevor Arisa what he can expect when he joins the wizards who I guess you're going to win all their games now and go to the playoffs and be super good. And this is all going to work out because it always does for the Wizards. Well, that's exactly the game plan. And, you know, we have the early evidence that that Wall approves of this trade. I will say this.

One of the fun moments last night, Sam Decker had a night, by the way. Sure. Welcome to Washington. Sam Decker. A guy who really goes to the whole hard, he, there was a moment where he was captured on camera turning the wall and like saying something like, wow, you're really good. that was an effing great player, something to that effect. And I need to take that thing and giff it and meme it.

But Sam Decker recognized that John Wall is a great player. That's a keeper. The thing about Wall, though, Gonso, I'll remind you, he played on Saturday night against the Brooklyn Nets in a game that the Wizards are now in a position where they can't afford to lose to bad teams. They can't really afford to lose anymore if they hope to get to 500, which seems to be the bellwether for making the playoffs in the Eastern Conference. They just didn't show up.

And in particular, John Wall didn't show up. And he said, well, I'm not really sure what it was. I just, I wasn't there for it. And I need to do better. Mother F for, you're the $40 million, mother effing guy. You're supposed to be the leader. You're the one that's out there carping about the disrespect that the franchise shows you and the team shows you.

Now, look, again, John Wall might be a good guy off the court. his charitable works have been recognized, his relationship with the young lady who passed away, that little girl who passed away from cancer. Like, he's got a big heart and he's got the right instincts in terms of some off-the-court behavior. But there's also off-the-court behavior that suggests that he has some poor decision-making around the partying and he can't seem to show up in shape for the basketball part.

But how about this? Showing up and playing hard against the Celtics and showing up and playing hard against the Lakers and not showing up against the nets, that's not effing acceptable. You're the mother effing $40 million guy. You want to be the face of the franchise. You were the number one pick in the draft a handful of years ago. Play professional basketball.

It can't be the case that Trevor Areza needs to be brought in to be the adult in the room. Oh, he's got a ring. And boy, he really made a great impression on us four years ago. Son of a bitch, go play. Play hard every night. Do you get a check for every game that you show up and play for? Do people take money out of their wallets and give it to the ticket? vendor and say, please entertain me, go play.

That's all we ask for. He's going to go play with a reason now. Like I said, it's going to be great. He's going to be thrilled. He's very excited. There's two different camps here on the, how did the Wizards do with this trade? I like the three-team trade for them a lot better because they got picks with it. No picks in this one.

But so let's, let's break down the case for and again. So you mentioned the Wizards record. They're 12 and 18. At present, as we record this, that puts them what, two and a half games out of the last playoff spot in the Eastern Conference behind the Orlando Magic. The back end of the Eastern Conference is really bad. So as bad as the Wizards were to start this season and as slow as a start as they got off to, it's conceivable that they can work themselves back into it. Areza is 33. He's on a one year, $15 million deal. As you mentioned, the Wizards believe that

it'll be easier for them to keep Arisa around and re-sign him next year if they don't move him again. And we'll get to that. And a quick interjection on that front, maybe they don't resign them. then they have the room, maybe that creates some cap flexibility. Yeah, they'd still have to move one of the other guys for it to really matter because they're still going to be capped out. You're right. But yes, yes. Potentially, if other pieces move as well, it could work out that way. But if not, it'll be easier for them to keep a reason around in theory than it would be for Uberie for all the reasons you just mentioned.

I guess in theory maybe like you've mentioned it on this program. Other people have whispered about it. Maybe Uberie wasn't super well liked in the locker room. Also, you get rid of Austin Rivers, which is always a good thing. Always a good thing. Where are you actually on Uber because there was a pretty hot debate in Ringer NBA slack

about whether or not Uber is any good? He's only 23. He just turned 23. Who knows? Who knows whether or not he's any good? For Washington, the key ingredient that never developed that we thought Scotty Brooks

might be able to deliver was some development of Ubre that translated into genuine basketball IQ. The single ingredient that continues to be missing from Ubre's repertoire is basketball IQ. He is a ball stopper for Washington. But, you know, who knows whether or not, Scottie Brooks was brought in part of the attraction to him with him by the franchise, not by me personally, because I still think, well, who cares what I think about Scottie Brooks? I think he stinks.

But he was supposed to have been a guy that could come in and nurture young players. And since we only had Ubre as like the leading contender to be to be nurtured, Ubre did improve during his time. here with Scotty Brooks, but he still like just misses fundamental stuff. He's not an efficient player on offense. And he never looked like a guy who was comfortable on the court who knew what he was capable of and was capable of taking games over. He was always just an energy guy, just a guy who could show you a flash defensively and a guy that sometimes had the right instinct to go to the basket, but sometimes took bad shots that bounced off the back of the rim. So he may yet be good.

Who knows, he's 23 years old. He wasn't going to get any better here in Washington, and there was no reason for Washington to make the investment to find out. Yeah, he had a slow start to the season. I guess he's been playing slightly better lately. But Areza, if you are trying to do something this season, I suppose that Areza is a better fit right now, 36% from three on the season, 35% from his careers,

compared to Ubre, who's about 31, 32%, respectively. and you get a bigger body defensively with Areza. But the case against here, if you're Washington, is who cares if they make the playoffs? We've seen, I was there last year. We saw them get in to the playoffs and, you know, flounder against the Toronto Raptors. Ubre is only 23 and he plays a position that is in much demand. Now, as you mentioned, it would be harder for them to resign Ubre because of all the previous contracts that they doled out under our boy Ernie Grunfeld. Ariza's older, you know, Houston didn't resign him for a reason.

it just makes me wonder about Ernie, who we've talked about quite a bit on this program. He's in his 15th season. He gave out the wall contract that is just going to be absolutely incredible at the back end of it. And I don't mean that in a good way. He gave out the Porter contract in a vacuum.

I don't know what else he was supposed to do. Somebody would have signed him if Washington hadn't. Well, Brooklyn offering him a sheet. It was the Brooklyn sheet that Washington matched. Yeah, that's what I mean. So, like, if I'm Ernie, in each of those individual instances, I don't know that I would have done anything differently.

but all of these things add up, and it requires more than just like short-sided, am I going to just re-sign this one guy in a vacuum thinking? It requires, okay, well, what is the sum of this parts here? And some of the parts from the Washington Wizards, as we've seen over these last few seasons, has not been good. So the idea of them going out and getting a Riza

and deciding, hey, we're going to make a run for the Eastern Conference playoffs again, okay, sure, but to what end? We've seen this play out before, and it doesn't end well. Well, I will take slight issue with that. And I wouldn't include Wall or Porter as kind of the faulty decision-making. I wouldn't have matched the Porter deal, but I understand all of the decision-making that went into the Porter retention. The true failure in analytics, in vision, in anticipating which way the league is going was the Mahimmy deal.

And that deal is a crippler. And that deal is the thing that is really limiting the franchise's flexibility because you cannot pay a guy who can't play. He can't play. He can't get off the bench for this team. And $16 million a year. That sunk cost is what crushes the franchise. But here's the thing. The point is to make the playoffs.

Is it? Yes. They have never won 50 games. They're not going. I mean, like, if they make the playoffs, what does that get them? Honestly, like, what does it get them? Opportunities. Reps, opportunities, opportunities, opportunities.

The playoffs are transformative. It is the thing. There's no teacher. There's no professional development like the playoffs. They won 49 games two years ago, and their record was not much worse. I think the records are pretty comparable through this stage of the season. I'll look it up through 30 games. I think that they were closer to like 14 and 16 maybe or 13 and 17 in the 16, 17 season

when they won 49 games. And then they went on a run and they won a whole bunch of games. And that was the season that they took the Boston Celtics to game seven of the Eastern Conference semifinals, right? They didn't make it to the conference finals. But that was a good team and that was something you could build on. It was the high water mark of John Wall's career. He jumped on the scorers table after making a three to win game six.

But look, the important thing to me, with this talent, with these guys, with these professional, you know, where the treadmill, the mediocrity treadmill that Washington is on, you don't know what they're capable of until they get to the playoffs. Wall and Beal especially. This is, we continue to see this. They respond to the limelight. They want to be recognized on a nationally prominent way. And the playoffs are the single best vehicle for that. And so you have to keep open. I will say this also gone.

So the only team in the east that I believe that the Washington Wizards cannot beat in a game in a seven game series, there's only one team. And you're going to be surprised to hear this. It's Milwaukee. I don't think the Wizards can beat Milwaukee because they just flat out do not have any kind of answer whatsoever to the Greek freak. That doesn't make them unique. Lots of teams in the East don't have an answer for the Greek freak,

but it's a poor matchup for the Wiz, the Bucks. They could beat everybody else. I mean, you know how much I love you. I love having you on the show. This was maybe of all the crazy rants you've ever had on the heat check, that might be your craziest. What the hell are you talking about? There's no what.

Listen, if they make the playoffs, it gets them exactly nowhere. You talked about the best performance they've had is Game 7 in the Eastern Conference semifinals. Jesus Christ, you can't see it right now. I'm taking off the hat I'm wearing, and I'm putting on my Kevin O'KKee. Connor hat and I'm pressing the blow it up button. The Washington Wizards should not be trying to squeeze in as the eighth seed in the

Eastern Conference because it doesn't get them anywhere. And the idea that like the bucks are the only team they can't be, they're so far behind the Raptors, the Bucks, the Pacers, the Sixers, the Celtics. The Washington Wizards is currently constituted and as organized by Ernie Grunfeld are a team that is just fodder. Put them in the cannon and blow them out and nothing's going to happen with this team. Like I don't understand it. I don't understand what they've been trying to do.

like I get again individually in a vacuum putting this core together but it doesn't work in actual execution maybe in theory it makes sense but in reality we've seen the results we've seen what it happens and like adding Trevor a reason is not going to do shit for them I don't know me personally one I can't believe Ernie's still around I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy but I don't get it it's year 15 and bless his heart he's GM in perpetuity I guess it's a lifetime appointment but I bring in I I'd clear house on everything just reset the the whole damn thing. Well, it's still a possibility. The trade deadline is February the 7th. We're going to see if they write the ship between now and February the 7th. And they've

acknowledged that everybody's on the table. Now, if they go off and win 15 of the next 20 and put themselves back, the rightful place for this Washington team based on talent and what is yet to be determined with the roster, because they only have 13 players right now. They still have to get a couple more bodies. And there's a auto porter's undergoing an MRI today. And Dwight Howard is a sunk cost. We need another big body. There's a, there's a gentleman named Thomas Bryant that is the starting center for the Washington. Which, are you familiar with Thomas Bryant? Sure. Yeah. I guess our backup center is. He got 28 minutes last night. And he deserves them because he works his ass off. He hustles. It's such a departure to see a guy like that running up and down the court.

Listen, when you've got Thomas Bryant on your team, I guess you have to make a push for the playoffs. You owe it to the Wizards when you've got a guy like Thomas Bryant to do all you can do to get into the playoffs. But look, there are deals to be had out there. Keefe, I'm ready to, you know, his expiration date is coming on as far as I'm concerned. If there's something creative that could be done with Otto Porter, I'm fine with it. We need another big body or two. I think that there is another highly cynical, radical move out there for this Washington franchise.

And I'll just go ahead and tell you, you know, as you look at the, trade deadline and look at teams that are in distress and duress and that might be in a mode to blow it up. The most Grunfeldian move out there is something like a player that fits the description of Hassan White Side. Sure. That's the kind of move that you expect. So you would have a Riza, Wide Side, Wall, Beal, and then, you know, Jeff Green, Decker, you know, something that fits that. We need a backup point guard and we need another big body to help poor Thomas Bryant and the 30 minutes a game that he's out there running his ass off. I want to amend my previous statement about how they should blow it up and all that.

That was my earnest take. My general heat check, I write for the ringer take is I love the Wizards and I hope they never change. And I want Ernie Grunfeld to be in charge forever and ever. Because for the rest of us, it is incredibly entertaining. You hit it on the head at the beginning of the program when you said, you know, Friday night was an all-timer. It really truly was.

I love it. I mean, like, they are endlessly entertaining. As a Wizards fan, though, how do you feel about your owner and your general manager? Do you feel good? No. What are we doing?

What the hell is going on with this franchise? Here's the thing. Here's the conundrum, right? They gambled on wall. When they offered the mega extension to him, what they had staring them in the face was a body of evidence of the level of player, a level of excellence that they've seen in front of them,

the gamble was whether or not he was going to turn into the kind of guy that could be a number one guy, like a leader kind of guy. And they lost. They lost that gamble. He's not a leader. He's not a guy that is going to show up. He had every opportunity and incentive this offseason to do what DeMar Rosen did when he got his big deal from Toronto two years ago, which is to go out on the beach and be running up and down the dunes and to be pushing the giant tire up and down and flipping the tire and all that kind of stuff. then show up like a bad mother effort on day one, game one, and start kicking ass and taking

names. I will always respect Amar de Rosen for what he did when he got his money. He showed up that very first Rafters game. He went on a tear. He was like the player of the month, November and December in the East. He was an incredible run. That's what I want and expect, honestly, from John Wall. And he hasn't delivered it. And that's the gamble that the Wizards made. And they lost. were effed as long as he's here. Why do you think that your owner Teddy ballgame, the last one before I let you go. Why do you think your owner Teddy ballgame has,

I mean, is he just distracted by hockey? Does he know what's happening with the basketball team? Like, at what point do you just look at the way that the team is running the decisions that have been made and you go, oh, maybe I should make a change here. It's 15 years. I really don't have a good answer for you. Some of it for sure has to do with the success of the hockey.

and what I think he learned as a sports owner from hockey in terms of like, you know, stability and continuity because the caps have only had two GMs during his tenure. And the experience that he had when he arrived, the very first thing he did with the caps when he arrived in D.C. was signy Aramara Yager to, you know, he went free agent hunting and brought him in, signed him to a giant contract. Now, he had the great good fortune. He had the good sense to go ahead and let that team blow up that caps team. and he landed Ovechkin. And then he was just willing to ride or die with Ovechkin, his number one pick in hockey.

And Ovechkin has proved to be a transcendent talent. There was a version of that. You know, he inherited a pretty disastrous situation when became the owner of the Whiz. And, you know, continuity as the order of the day and the, you know, the rebuild around Wall and Beal and Porter all has its sort of merits and the decisions in a vacuum at the time. Those decisions were made.

but there is like a long range kind of value assessment that seems to be missing. Like in terms of the decision tree, it feels like we're making a lot of decisions in a vacuum without a good sense. And some of this is analytics. Like I'd be curious to see what the analysis, the sheets were, the book on Mahimmi. Because the Mahimmi crime is the one that can't be solved, right? They miscalculated how the cap was going to behave in the future. and they grossly misapplied a value to Mahinmi. And yet more Christmas lights for the community.

God bless him. A wonderful addition to the community with a beautiful Christmas lights. Way overperformed on the Christmas decorations, so maybe a push. It's really fantastic. I love the Wizards. I hope they never change Joe House. Enjoy it. It's going great.

Well, look, if it just goes like it has so far this season, it's going to be a very, very rich and enjoyable Washington Wizard's season. Thank you, Gonzo as always. From House of Carbs and Shack House, it's Joe House. You're the best. Happy holidays, homie. Thanks, buddy. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. See ya.

All right, that was Joe House, incomparable. And now we bring in Jonathan Charks for the other side of the trade. Boom, Shakalaka. He's heating up. All right, joining me on the other line. He's a staff writer and a member of the Corner 3 podcast on Friday. He's very talented. It's Jonathan Charks.

What's up, Charks? Not much, but how are you guys doing? Excellent, my friend. So we just went through the wizard side with House, which was quite an experience for everybody. I'm sort of leaning up against the wall here trying to catch my breath. House had a lot of things to say, as you can probably imagine. The Sons were involved in the trade and the non-trade. We'll do the Sun side first.

So they get Kelly Ubre and Austin Rivers in the trade that was actually executed. We'll get to the side of the trade that wasn't executed in a little bit. How do we feel about Kelly Ubre and Austin Rivers going to the Sons? Where are you on Uber? because it was kind of divisive in ringer NBA slack. I mean, I like his potential. I feel like it's one of those things where I'm pretty sure everybody in Washington looks worse than they actually are.

Of course, the question is, did he wind up in just as bad situation as he left? Yeah, I mean, and also, like, how's the fit with the sons? Because I look at, I mean, the one thing, oddly, everybody in the league needs wings, but the sons have a lot of them somehow. They've got T.J. Warren and Josh Jackson and Bridges, and now they've got Ubre as well. And I wonder, like, how do you think he fits there? I mean, I think there's still plenty of minutes.

Like, they're giving Jamal Crawford, like, 25 minutes a night at, like, 40 years old. Yeah. So there's no, I mean, there's no shortage of spots for talented players in that team. So I think they'll give him plenty of opportunity. The Ubre Jackson thing is pretty interesting. Yeah, I think so, too. And I think you're probably right about, like, everybody in Washington looking worse and then maybe they are.

But I do have, I have my doubts about, Ubra, he is only 23, but I wonder about him. There were also whispers about how he fit into the locker room chemistry there to the extent that Washington had any positive chemistry. Maybe he wasn't part of that. So maybe going to the suns makes it easier for him, better for him. But I just feel like he was kind of maybe misused in Washington, but I just also wonder about, like, is that going to be better in Phoenix?

Well, he's one of those, like, theoretical players you all fall in love with because, like, he's theoretically really good. He's got the long wingspan, the athleticism. And then his shot, looks good. But you look at his actual numbers, he doesn't shoot all that well. Yeah. An insistent defender. So it's like, what role does he actually have if he's not knocking down shots? He's not a primary ball handler either. So he's one of those guys who's like, man,

you want to believe in Kelly Ubrae, but it's more you see flashes, but the actual consistency just hasn't been there. Do you think he's worth resigning for the Sons or do you think that he's on the move again? Because with the CBA, they can't package Ubre with another player, but they can trade him by himself immediately. I mean, I think he's one of those guys where you figure, I guess the idea is like if you have enough of these like streaky wings, one of them will turn out. I mean, what do they have to lose? He's 23 years old. He has talent. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like bring him in, kick the tire, see what happens. Maybe he, you hit on something and if not, no harm, no foul type of deal. It seems like, I mean, you want to play him off

Devin Booker, basically, and hope that makes him a better player. That's, that's the idea. That's like, Booker's like a, I don't know he's better than John Wall, but he's more, it's more of a natural fit maybe playing him off Booker than with Wall. So the deal that was supposed to happen was going to involve the Grizzlies. And the reason why it didn't go down was because the Grizzlies didn't want to give up on Dylan Brooks. They thought they were trading Marshawn Brooks. And there was also some debate in Ringer NBA Slack about the quality and talent level of Dylan Brooks relative to the other players in the deal. I thought the whole thing was goddamn hilarious that the deal would blow up over either Brooks.

I just think all of this drama for the players and the level of talent that was in the trade didn't make much sense to me. Like wherever you land on Ubrae or Dylan Brooks or Trevor Areza or whatever, for all of that to happen, like, didn't make any sense. It was just too much drama and too much unintentional comedy for the level of talent that was supposed to be in this deal. Yeah, I mean, no one's probably talking about this trade if it's like a normal NBA transaction where everyone knows everyone's name and they just see it.

Like they're not going about the same players. they're not playing telephone. It's probably like, oh, you know, it really finally got traded. Okay, that's cool. But the fact that it just got so out of hand and apparently Mbe for an office don't know the player's names,

like that's what made it such a spectacle. It's so great. So where are you on Dylan Brooks then? Because this was obviously a sticking point and like Dylan Brooks was fine last year, right? I mean, I think like that's part of why this became a thing because Kevin Pelton wrote about this too. And I'm totally in agreement with him.

I think he kind of got like overrated last year because he had what, like the third most rookie starts after Ben Simmons and Jason Tatum. And he's just like league average from three. He's below average and true shooting percentage. Like he's, I guess, okay, fine, a little promising, but I don't understand like blowing up a deal over this. Yeah, it's one of those things. I think if you compare like Brooks to Ubre, Brooks is a better shooter than Ubre. So he has a higher floor.

Dylan Brooks. We should probably do this. Let's stop him to this trade, I guess. They kept saying Brooks. Yes. So, we'll say Dylan. Dylan is a better shooter than Uber so he has a higher floor

but he has a much lower ceiling because he's not as good an athlete and last year he played a lot on a really bad team and so he wasn't awesome either he just kind of eight minutes for a bad team so what does that really mean and then this season he only played

11 game for hurt his hamstring he's not for like a month and a half so he's definitely kind of like he might be a guy who Memphis has fallen in love with because everyone loves drone young players but if you look at their roster like they're not going to trade for someone he better come back and give them something

because they're not playing all that well lately. Yeah. Again, wherever you land on Ubrae versus Dylan, is there's deep in the weeds now if we're talking Ubrae versus Dylan. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like at what point,

this conversation must have been amazing between these three teams. Like truly, truly amazing. I keep coming back to Chris Wallace throwing Ernie under the bus. So I quote earlier in the program about he had only talked to Washington for this deal. But then he went further.

And he said, he came out and he told reporters, what happened Friday night was unfathomable. I've never experienced this before. It forced me to do something I've never done in 30 plus years working in the league with seven teams, is to drag two players out of a locker room and tell them they've been traded. And then eventually have to come back and tell them, oh, no, you haven't been traded. Marshawn actually did pretty well with this. He's like, look, it's a business and what are you going to do and blah, blah, blah. Marshaun's happy to be in the league, based in China last year.

He's like, all right, whatever, as long as my check still goes through. Yeah, but can you imagine if you're Marshawn Brooks because you just found out that your team doesn't want you and that nobody else wants you either? I'm saying Marshall. I was in China last year. He knows the deal. He's like, give me get an NBA check, got an NBA pension. Like, he's not worrying about it too much. I don't think anymore. He's been on the block a few times. What does this mean? So obviously the Grizzlies are trying to add on the wing and they should. They've been trying to add on the wing forever and ever and they haven't been able to find anybody good for quite a while. And Uber, in theory, on kind of what you see. said about how he was a theoretical player. In theory, he would have been a theoretical fit for what the grizzlies are looking for. But does this indicate to you that they're trying to add and they want something else and they'll have to just go find it somewhere else with somebody else now?

I think they have to. If you look at there right now, they're tied for the eighth spot with Sacramento and Portland. They're only, they're basically at a zero point differential. They've got no depth. They're counting on Marcusol and Mike Conley in their mid-30s to stay healthy all season, carry them on offense and defense. they're stretched pretty thin, like they're overachieving, and they're 16 and 13. So they probably have to make a move at some point, I would think.

The nice thing about it, too, if they trade it for Ubre, he helps them theoretically now and gives them a young piece with Jaron Jackson going forward. Because right now it's just Jaron Jackson, a bunch of old guys. So they're kind of caught in the middle. Yeah, they are super thin. I mean, like their first three guys are really good in Conley and Gassal and Triple J. But as you mentioned, two of those guys are older, and two of them, have had health issues, and I think when those two guys are healthy and right, the grays are

right in the mix is exactly what we're seeing right now, this season. But when they're not, and they leave, like, we saw what happened last season when they just absolutely cratered and went in the tank. So, yeah, they need more bodies. They're kind of in a sixers situation in the same way that the Sixers need more, but not to, I know that we don't talk a lot of Sixers here. It's always about the same. It always goes back to the Sixers. But comparatively, yeah, like they need some warm bodies in the same way and it would be nice if they went out and got some but listen you can't trade Dylan Brooks I guess

so you just can't do it I mean when you when you have a second round pick who's played 11 games this season you've just got to hold on to that if you have a guy like Dylan Brooks you have to hold on to him at all costs no matter how embarrassing it might be for your franchise you gotta burn all your bridges

burn them all down throw every general manager under the bus it god it was an all time I've never seen anything like that charts for him to go on the record and talk about the other GMs like that is just crazy town to me that never happens. Yeah, I don't know the mechanics

I was just surprised that they wouldn't have talked to Phoenix. Right. You know, like, why would you not make the phone call? Hey, you know, just to see, hey, how did, you know,

like just to talk about players and draft. It's just bizarre to me. That was never even, that grunfell is in the middle of that the whole time. I don't know the mechanics of trade. That seems weird to me too. Well, I mean,

somebody's lying here because the sons and the wizards dispute that story, right? So either Chris Wallace is on the record throwing them under the bus and being like very heated about it or he's lying. Somewhere along the way in this game of telephone, something got fucked up and somebody's just not telling the truth about what actually happened, which is kind of crazy. But like the sons aren't absolved here either because Robert Sarver and James Jones, they don't come away looking great out of this either. Like, because there was a report that Sarver didn't want to deal with the Lakers. Like at what point when you have a Riza and he's going to be a really useful trade chip for you,

do you not like really shop him around? Like Ubre and Austin Rivers is the best deal you're going to get out of that, really? I mean, he's like a 34-year-old wing, right, on a big old contract. So, I mean, it kind of makes sense. Now you've turned him into a cost-controlled, a young one you have under his contract for a long time on Ubre. So it kind of makes sense. It just seemed like with the Lakers, Sarva was like, I can't trade to the Lakers again if I let's Tyson Chandler go.

Like he's so obsessed with how it's perception and not like just making his team better. You're the sons. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. We're trying to build a new stadium apparently. Do you see that? That whole thing going down in Phoenix? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, like, people want them to stay. Sure, yeah. And they think he's potentially going to move them and he keeps saying he's not going to move them. And people are all heated about it. But that's like the most animated anybody's been about the Suns in like quite a long time. My point about Trevor Reza, though,

is I think he's a more valuable piece than you're giving him credit for. Yes, he's 33 years old. And he's, the Houston Rockets said goodbye to him because they didn't want any part of his $15 million deal with the Sons, but it's a one-year deal that's expiring. And also, he can help a team that's potentially a playoff team. I guess the Wizards think that they could be, and maybe they can be, but as I said to House, I'm in the East, why not? Right, but as I said to House, like, what does that

get them? Who cares if the Wizards make it into the playoffs just barely? They're not going to go any way. Well, you know who cares about that? Gons? Ernie Grunfeld cares about that. Clearly, God bless Ernie Grunfeld, my favorite general manager in league history. But I just think, like, if you really did your due diligence and shopped around the NBA? I think you would have got more bites than just, hey, let's do this right now because we can and we'll ship them to the Wizards. I think you could have probably done more. At least you could have gotten maybe a pick or something out of it.

They almost did. Yeah. What? The picks would have gone to Washington, right? It's just hard to keep track of all of it. I believe in the original trade that the picks have walked on to Washington, they would have gotten the two guys from the Grizzlies, Seldon, and the unnamed Brooks. And Brooks to be named later, right.

I don't know. I just think that it's not a terrific look for the Sun's front office. It's certainly not a good look for the girls' front office. It hasn't been a good look for them in a long time. It's incredible. Godspeed to all seven Suns fans that are left. I hope it works out with Booker and Nathan because beyond that, it's kind of crazy over there. All right, before I let you go, because you have a lot of things going on. You want to talk about other NBA things? We have the Kings and the Knicks come to mind.

There was a Nick story, and then Dave Yeager in Sacramento made some more news. Oh yeah, I saw if he shouted out my guy, Luca. He shouted out your guy, Luca. Can you imagine if they had Luke on that squad right now? I can see why he's upset. Let me give you the quote here. So this is pretty fantastic. In the same way that I was sort of floored by Chris Wallace going on the record and saying what he said,

I was similarly floored by Dave Yeager going on the record and saying what he said. If you missed it, King's head coach Dave Yeager on Luca Donkich, quote, perhaps there was an idea that there was a ceiling on him. I don't see it, unfortunately for us. but he's great for them and he's great for our league. I'm going to translate on this one. That is not only just shouting out Luca, it is really giving heat and roasting both Bagley

and the King's front office at the same time. Yeah, I think Yerger must be planning his exit. He's thinking, okay, me and the King's front office, we're not doing too well. We're doing well, so if they have a good season, right, he can get a job with somewhere else, they fire him. And it's like, look, man, these guys didn't draft Luca. If I had Luke, imagine they had Luke and Dearon Fox in the same team.

That'd be a really interesting squad going forward. It would be fantastic. I would love to see them together. Hugh obviously would love to see them together. He said the quiet part loud. To say that on the record is, I mean, you've got Bagley on your team, and you've already had a dust up with Brandon Williams in the King's front office where you tossed out the assistant general manager from your practice

and it had dueling, leaked source reports to different publications. things in Sacramento could not be more dramatic and uncomfortable right now. Yeah, I think if you're the King's head coach and you've got a good season going, you're like, let me cut bait while the thing is good, like Mike Malone, right? I'm going to go on a high note, get a job somewhere else. When you have a good season in soccer, I'm going to get a job somewhere else out of that. And then let's just get out of here for this thing collapses on me. I mean, I respect Dave Yeager.

I think he's done a really good job. I think he's a good head coach. When you say, let me get out of here. and he's, I think you're right that he's sort of angling to get out of there. But if he does, if you're another organization and another front office

and you see the way that he's handled this situation, doesn't that give you a little bit of pause? Yeah, I mean, to give y'all a way back, when he was in Memphis, he would always bring up that they drafted Jordan Adams over Rodney Hood, which like looking back on it now is also kind of funny, like, okay, it's great.

Right, what are we talking about? Oh, man, that's fantastic. Yeah, I mean, I guess he's just thinking, he's thinking one job at a time. But yeah, you have to wonder about a coach who's that willing to air out his own front office for whatever mistakes they made. All right. Last league thing here that we should probably just touch on real quick. There's a big, big piece on ESPN about James Dolan. Did you get through that?

Yeah, I saw it on stock we've been talking about today. Honestly, it sounds kind of hilarious. Like him playing the guitar on the team plane as they're like leaving, and they lose games. Like, I'll do whatever heck I want. Like, that's funny to me. Yeah, yeah. So there's any number of anecdotes in this story that are interesting, and I recommend that everybody go and read it. The one that Charks is referencing there is that there's a story that even after losses on the team playing,

that James Dolan would be playing his guitar, and people would be like, what the fuck is he doing? Now, he denied that, but I thought it was pretty fantastic. He had quotes in there about his former friendship with Harvey Weinstein, about his support for Donald Trump. There was a thing in there that I found fascinating where, like, so the Knicks forever and ever have been, to pull back the curtain on the reporting in NBA circles, the Knicks have been notorious for their, let's say, dicey, uncomfortable relationship with the media. And there's a story in there that says that Dolan confirms

that his PR department does keep clip-file dossiers on those who cover the garden and its teams. He says he'd recommend the same to all CEOs so that they don't unwittingly invite any foxes into their billion-dollar hen houses. For that story, a garden official, listened in on all interviews conducted with Dolan executives and associates who were made available to comment on the record.

Like, Nick's paranoia with the media is legendary, and they're like, yeah, man, it's all true. I mean, on some level, like, Dolan's not, he's like, I'm an asshole. Like, he's just a billionaire son, I guess. He doesn't care. Like, I kind of respect on some level. Like, I miss an asshole. That's how it's going to be. He said that, like, he basically, like, when he's out in New York, people will come up and say,

like, nice things to him. but frequently they'll like yell crazy shit at him too. And then just scurry off. He said it happens all the time, even at dinner and it's not fun for him. He didn't rule out selling the team, but he did hint that like, you know,

somewhere in the $5 billion range for the next would be what he's looking for, which is, I guess not crazy because they're the Knicks and they're in New York. I mean, the Clippers went for two or the Rocks for 2.2. I mean, look how much press the Knicks get for being terrible. Yeah.

Like imagine if you could sell them on being a good, right? You know, Gond's better to be lucky than good. If you get born to owning the Knicks, you can make a pretty good amount of money on that. I wouldn't tell me if he sold it eventually. That's a crazy story. I hope he does sell for Jason Concepcion's sake and all the rest of our friends here at the Ringer

who are Knicks fans. For the rest of us, though, I hope he doesn't sell because just having him around is amazing. And the same way that having Ernie Grunfeld around is amazing. I want him to be the owner of the Knicks in perpetuity. Well, I mean, we know Grunfeld would be in Washington. So who knows. Maybe they can form a super team again.

What else are you got going on? You got anything you want to plug? Yeah, I'm working on a thing on the Bucks for this week. And then I'm headed off to the G-League showcase to see the go real deep on some fringe players. That's like right in your wheelhouse. I can't wait to read that. Listen to him on Fridays on Corner 3. Read him all the time on the ringer.com.

He's Jonathan Charks. Charks. Thanks for doing this. Absolutely. All right, I want to say thanks to Joe House. thanks to Charks. Of course, thanks to Isaac. Thanks to all of you for listening. Please remember to rate and review us on Apple. And of course, you can catch the mismatch on Tuesdays. Sources say alternating on Wednesdays group chat on Thursdays and Corner 3 on Fridays. Heat check will be back on Monday. See you again.