The Ringer NBA Show - The Unkillable Pacers Storm Back Again to Win Game 1 of the Finals | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos record together in L.A. immediately after Tyrese Haliburton and the Pacers pull off another late comeback, and this time, they take a 1-0 lead in the Finals. They discuss how the Pacers continue to do this, what adjustments the Thunder can make, and much more. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakey, Victoria Valencia, John Richter and Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ ⁠⁠www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. This episode is presented by State Farm®️. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm®️ with the Assist. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. And hello and welcome to the NBA Finals. I am Justin Verrier and joining me live to tape at the Spotify studios in L.A., Rob Mahoney, Big Waz. What a game and what a game specifically to watch with Waz in attendance. I don't think anyone had more energy for this game outside of the guy with like the Thor Hammer that we saw in the Thunder Arena. Hey, man, look, it's the NBA Finals. We've come to the end of the road.

I always say, like, this is what, you know, watching Hornets games in November, like, this is the payoff, right? Like, for the stuff that we do as NBA people. And tonight was just a reminder of how magical this thing could be at any given moment. I still literally can't believe what we just watched together. Unbelievable. I actually watch Hornets games like that. I think you do as well around sometime. Yeah.

We do participate in all of that for this very reason. Yeah. to bring people behind the curtain. We're watching here in the auditorium together. In the first half, I would say, Obie Top and almost brought Waz to have an aneurysm. And then in the second half, Waz is rooting for mostly chaos

and close margins and crunch time. Like you're like, just get us into a winnable game for someone in the final match. It was at a certain point where I was like, oh, why are you rooting for the Pacers so much? And he's like, no. I'm just, I'm just rooting for basketball. He's like Rob Lowe with the NBA hat up here.

Just at a much more robust level. No, and the thing is, both of these teams present fun crunch time situations. Obviously, the paces have just been, I think they're 8 in 1 now in clutch games in the playoffs. Just ridiculous. That's insane stat, but the Thunder because, you know, they're still young and oftentimes throw up on themselves. And that is interesting to watch in its own right. And so this game gave us everything. I don't even know that they fully did that.

Like, this wasn't a Thunder meltdown. this was just the Pacers being on Killable. Like all you can really do with Indiana at this point, build the biggest lead you can, board up your windows, hope they go away and run out of time. Like other than that, I don't know what you're supposed to do.

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you could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners are just getting through the day. State Farm, with the assist, coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, and eligibility vary by state. I really don't know where to start because what the fuck just happened there?

At halftime, we were just counting the turnovers for the Pacers. I believe they had 19 total. And one half of basketball, the Thunder do this to teams, but not to that level. To storm back and even make that a game was one thing. To rip that from the hearts of the Thunder

in the arena where they lost, what, one game at home, that's unbelievable, Rob. Like, what the hell happened here? I think there's a bunch of things that happened. One, I thought they came out of the second half and they were just reading the thunder defense a lot with a different level of clarity. It was clear they had, I don't even think it was like they showed them some stuff on tape that was all that revolutionary.

It was like, please remember what we talked about in the week leading up to this game, like drilling down on their talking points and specifically getting to those corner threes. The Pacers are not a huge three-point shooting team. They don't really want to be a huge three-point shooting team, but the Thunder make you one. They make you take those shots. And so your best option is, how can we get those in the flow of what we do?

How can we get those for our best shooters? And I thought they were spraying out to the corners much more effectively. Obviously, they kept the turnovers down. I think in part because they stopped trying to hit guys like Miles Turner, guys like Aaron Neesmith, in the like 15 foot to three foot range on the cut. Just don't do it. Like don't force those guys to have to catch the ball in traffic,

dribble through traffic, make everything clean, make everything easy, make everything an endpoint. and then all of a sudden you're not turning the ball over anymore and this is a game and you're hitting threes and oh shit now you have a lead

Tyreys Halliburton coming up in the clutch again I just think they had all those component parts to get back into it. I think that was very beautiful and Alquim and Rob just diagnosed for us here

I also think why they just have big old testicles and they just keep happening all the time. They do though there's a toughness factor there's a Cajonase factor shouts of my god Bam McMahon

that like part of the part of what change in the second half was they were like, Nemhard, you get on the ball? Yeah, as they do sometimes. Like, instead of our superstar point guard, we're just going to give it to Nemhardt

and you create offense for yourself. And what I did like, too, is he started just attacking the paint relentlessly. And, you know, most teams want to put you in pick and roll. They want to put your defenders in conflict. Like, with the thunder, you kind of don't really want to draw the hell. Because they're so excellent at it.

And I thought Nemhard did a good job of saying, you know what, screw the screen. I'm just going to drive it right at the face of whoever's guarding me right now. And I thought that kind of helped them out because in the first half, they were having trouble getting any kind of dribble penetration, which most teams do against the Thunder anyway. It's just Nemhard really sticks out in my brain in this game because he did so much on the ball. You mentioned Obie Topping, like, yeah, the first half, there was a sequence where Obie Topping was playing so hard. horribly. They put Thomas Bryant in who had like three turnovers in one minute,

filed the guy, whatever. But also a corner three. In a manner of speaking, the Pacers won this game by a Thomas Bryant jumper. If you really want to think about it that way. That's right. They took Obie out because he was playing so horribly. Bryant comes in place even worse somehow.

Yanking for one minute just to put Obie back and say, you know what? Screw just the substitutions, thunder coming out in there, this new starting lineup, just so much going on for a game, one that you don't typically see.

Yeah, and once again, the Pacers just thrive in chaos. I guess the Thunder did as well because I keep coming back to this idea that the Thunder let this slip away. And I guess it does technically qualify as a choke. They should have probably won this game.

Sure. The Pacers just have a way of just ripping this away from teams. I think of three things, Rob. Obviously, Nemhart, just a complete, just master of the crunch time situation. not only just on offense, just having the balls in order to play the way he did,

but also going at Shea. Clearly, they have the experience being Canadian teammates together. They were going back and forth. He was letting Shea get to his step back. But other than that, he was making it pretty hard on him. Topin, as you mentioned, five for eight from three, basically counterbalanced what they got from door in the bullshit three department. And Tyreys Halliburtoned once again just makes these shots. He was just going right, going right, going right.

He seemed like the ball slipped out of it. of his hands even as he was going for the long two and it goes in and so at a certain point it's just magic. That's what I'm kind of circling here. I think it's magic and I think it's resilient. I think the mental toughness of the pacer's is just inarguable at this point. I don't see how you can argue that.

And like Obie Toppin is a great case study in that. Miles Turner is a great case study in this where he has five turnovers in his first 13 minutes on the floor. And what I love about playoff basketball is it's like, fuck it. It doesn't really matter. Like you keep playing, what can you do the rest of the way? He becomes one of the heroes of the fourth quarter.

Eight points in the fourth hits a couple threes. Crucial minutes for them in the same way that Obie Topin became a crucial contributor for them. In the same way that Andrew Nemhardt became a crucial contributor for them. And I thought it was really smart in terms of how they were controlling their offense down the stretch, going through Nemhart, as you said, was when you go through Halliburton,

he's a really good pick and roll player, but he's one who sprays out, who's looking to share the ball. It's a lot of side-to-side action. It's a little less controlled in terms of where the ball's going to end up. And that can break some defenses. But against the thunder, it also kind of leads into the chaos that they want you to play with. And if you play

with Nemhart and the pick and roll instead, which the Pacers do a lot. Like he's a really high usage pick and roll player for them. I would guess in terms of like straight pick and roll attacks, probably more often than Halliburton on balance. But it's also much more of a set, traditional, I'm going to drive into the middle of the lane and spray out to the angle that I know is there

and the teammate that I know is open. And we're going to just like work that over and over and over. And I thought that predictability actually really helped them. Yeah. I think unfortunately, on the flip side of this was, it seemed like the thunder outside of SGA getting his were struggling. And it almost seems like if you were to look back, flash back to the first half of the game,

even though they were having success, you can kind of see some of the stallouts coming to where it was SGA, Dorten his threes, and what else? Yeah. That was it. So I'm watching the entire game thinking the thunder are going to take the game. And I'm like, well, what's the story coming out of the game? and it felt like, look, the Thunder were world beaters on defense,

particularly in the first half. Like, I can't remember seeing something like that almost, you know, sometimes you go to a high school basketball game and the other team is so outmatched. And, you know, the team with all the athletes is full court pressing them. And, you know, they turn them over 20 times and a half. I'd never seen something like that in an NBA final game. They would have gotten mercy ruled if this was like a district playoff game or whatever.

And I'm just like, look, the Thunder played like World Beaters on defense, but they were not good on offense outside of Shea. And, you know, I was prepared to come in here and be like, yo, Shea came out and basically took 30 shots. Yeah. And it felt like he felt like his team was going to need him to do that. I was like, man, does Indiana have somebody that can come in and just force the issue that way?

Yeah. Like, will the series come down to the fact that they don't have players that it's in their nature to do that? and then lo and behold, they engineer a freaking full team comeback. Like, it's like one guy didn't spur this. Like, it was a team collective effort that spearheaded this comeback and, you know, making me a complete idiot, obviously. I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

Yeah. Six Pacers and double figures. No one with more than 19 points. The Shay part of it is fascinating. And it's a really weird game to manage in terms of the Thunder offense. You guys are absolutely right. The defense basically covered over the fact that the offense was not working outside of Shea and Dort.

She took 30 shots, as you said, was, I think there's a fair argument he should have and could have taken more. And some of the success of the Pacer's defense in the fourth quarter was kind of nudging the ball out of his hands a little bit in J. Dub's general vicinity. And look, the Thunder need J. Dub to be that guy. And he was not that guy. And I think the difficulty in games like this is how much do you lean into like

the aspirational side of the team building, of hoping that he can manifest in the way that, to be fair, he has at other stages in the playoffs. You can't be aspirational in the finals. Well, that's the thing, right? It's like, I think at some point, it really was Shea and Dort. And the Dort 3s are what they are and they're going to come and go. But like, Shea going one on one.

And granted, that was also against a Pacer defense that was kind of giving the thunder some of their own medicine as the game went on, cheating in further and further off those role players trying to bog down She. So you can see how it happens. It's just they really, really needed J-Dub to be good. And he was not very good. So J-W. three for 12 through the first three quarters

I have him down. He had three Phil goes in the first three minutes of the fourth quarter. It seemed like he was just going to have the last kick as he has and passed. He had that nice little patient move where he scored in between the defense where he was feeling the defender on his back, waited and then went up. And I was like, oh, there's the J-dub that they need in order to get them over the hump here. But like, this is kind of his role, especially the way the Chet was playing was. I just don't know if J-dub can't give them that, like where they go from there. It's tough because it says 6 of 19

and I'm like I remember about half of those shots like it felt like everything was missing for them and you know you wonder if he has to become just strictly a jump shooter because his all for the dribble creation shots tonight were horrendous and I think it was different defenders

giving him hell too. It wasn't just Neesmith that was giving him problems Seaccom gave him problems like everybody was doing a good job. Chad I just could just not find his footing only played 24 minutes this game. Caruso played more minutes than him. And you wonder if I guess this is more of a Caruso series than a Chet series.

I thought Hartinstein was just frankly just better than Chet was in this game. And man, I just I'm just still shocked they lost this game. And again, you play defense like that. You expect to get the outcome. Like you got to. the stuff that OKC generally wants. They did it. Like they did everything except when.

Except when. This is a tough outcome. And also, watching that first half, like, we know Indy is a much better offensive team than they showed. Yeah.

They're just more poised than that. Well, obviously, we saw it in the fourth quarter, but they just looked out of their bodies in the first half in a way that disshocked me, quite frankly.

And that was just, that was one of the best finals games I've ever seen. It was awesome. And the other thing too is I'm like the whole time again, this is the fourth freaking time this has happened. The whole time I'm like, they're not actually going to pull this. I thought the same thing with the Knicks game won, the Cleveland game, the Yonis game and the entire time. But I'm like, yo, this is, this feels like one of the most surprising outcomes I've ever seen, but it's not. Yeah. I have two stats for you guys. Both of them from Karethika, you on Twitter.

Indiana has come back from down 15 or more five times the most in a single postseason. Tyresearch Halliburton is six for seven when taking a shot to tie or take the lead in the final 90 seconds of the fourth quarter or the O.D. in playoffs. I tried to tell y'all the greatest comeback run in playoff history.

You did? This is just what this team is. I think here's what I'm coming down to. Like, this is such a razor-thin margin. obviously requires Tyrese Hallibor and game winner to get there. The Pacers turn the ball over 25 times. 25 times. They might not do that again.

I suspect it will rain in some. Would you like to guess how many thunder points came out of those 25 turnovers? I'm going to guess 11. It is exactly 11 thunder points off of 25 turnovers. And some of that was a lot of dead ball turnover, side out of bounds, some shot clock violations. like they really stifled them

but not in a way that contributed to thunder offense. And it's like, again, if a couple of those plays go a different way, this is a thunder win. Yeah, I mean, I just, you know, I just think when a team gets like 20 more shots up than you do, you know, that's a difficult recipe to win again, unless you're just doing practicing the sorcery of the Indiana Pacers. Attention sports fans. We've got a big game this Sunday.

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for Shea Gildes Alexander. Could have been the whistle, but it also, I think there seemed like something the Pacers were doing where early in the game, in the first half in particular, seemed like they were getting to the rim, the Thunder were.

And I was like, oh, they're just kind of slicing up this defense. But if you look, they really weren't finishing a lot at the rim. They ultimately finished 43% on 54 looks inside the paint. And it just seemed like the Pacers, one of their strategies,

Rob, was maybe to come over and close hard, because it seemed like they can get to the paint of Thunder. Yeah. But they weren't finishing over anyone, even though that the Pacers minus Turner don't have like a true imposing rim protector. Well, this is one of the things about the Thunder

that again gets disguised by how much they're in transition, the turnovers and the way they convert them. If you look at the way they finish around the basket, She is a great finisher and gets to the line. J-Dub not really. Really good all-around player does not finish well when contested. Chet can be bodied and pushed off his spot unless it's like a clean alley-oop.

And other than that, They play mostly very small. And Isaiah Harderstein is the kind of big who doesn't really score directly around the rim. It's a lot of floaters in the lane and that kind of thing, unless it's an offensive rebound. So in terms of like first shot offense, they're not the best finishing team in the world if you care to contest them. And most importantly, if you're fast enough to contest them. If you can actually get there fast enough to beat them to the layup, I think you can disrupt them pretty well. Yeah.

Yeah, that fourth quarter down the stretch is funny. Like, if you've consumed any of the kind of finals previews, stuff out there. Everybody's line was, these teams are mirrors of each other, except one just has way better players that do it. Like, they have a similar kind of style. Disrespectful, but

yeah, but that's kind of, that was like the general consensus, but in the fourth quarter, the Pacers' defense did look like O'KC's. Like they were swarming and even when they did get nice looks and you're like, well, that's freaking Nemhar contested something at the rim.

That's knee smith. Like, it shouldn't be that difficult. And J-dub, man, like, I don't know. I wish I could go back and look at the tape right now, but how many of his shots off of the dribble where his body was not squared to the basket, where he's taking a twisted shot? It's like, bro, that's not going to get it done. And they don't really have anybody else to do dribble on ballwork. Like, Chet will attack his big man matchup if he's, like, getting press. up, you know, from beyond the three-point line. Like, that's kind of been one of his favorite things from his rookie year.

It's like driving a hard drive against the big because he feels like he has the speed advantage. But outside of that, like, Case Wallace ain't going to be breaking nobody down off the dribble. We know that's not Caruso's game. And so, Indy just making these guys put it on the deck was that, that was something to behold, honestly. Well, let's talk about the tradeoff for the Thunder, going a little bit. but smaller than they have at least to start with in games.

Mark Dagnall, as he's on the dais here, apparently addressed that, says he's one of his biggest regrets was canceling out his big men. They were minus nine in the minutes. Both Holmgren and Hartinstein were off the floor in the fourth quarter. They went super small. Yeah. Toward the end there, Caruso, Dor, J-Dub, basically at center. But they also started the game super small.

Relatively small. Yeah. Smaller. Just with the one center. Small. I have to say, I kind of like the bull. of the thunder starting from the jump at a place where I think we all expected them to get to. What did you think, Rob?

Did you like being this tricky this quick? I don't even think it's that necessarily tricky. And here's the thing. If you want to criticize anything, it's not the way the Thunder started this game. They came out. Kaysen Wallace got targeted a couple times in terms of the Pacers trying to go at him with bigger players. They found their level. They forced a fuck ton of turnovers.

Ultimately, like, they settled into that first half really, really nicely. I don't think the reason that the Thunder lost this game is because they went smaller in that spot. Now, down the stretch is a different issue and a different question. And ultimately, I think Hardinstein played well enough in this game to be on the floor. Chet, not always.

And I think that's going to be kind of a pressure point for the Thunder in the series is how does Chet find a way to exert his will on it in some way? To me, though, I feel like a lot of the Pacer's best looks were when they were doing this high-low action and getting the ball into Miles and Siaco against essentially guards and wings. But that's going to be true as long as the Thunder switch.

And they're going to switch a lot even if they have bigs on the floor. I just, man, I loved the two bigs looking. Obviously Denver presents a completely different matchup. And so does Minnesota, like, these are, like, really big, beefy bros on that team. But, like, I just liked that they could be, you know, have Chet sort of weakside roaming. and letting Hartenstein body up with guys, I think it is important to keep big men close to the basket. And when you only have one of them in the game,

like, it makes the Pacer's job of getting your only rim protector away from the hoop a lot easier. I'm not saying this is why they lost the game. But, like, the fact that they didn't play them at all... Together. Together? I think that's a bit of a mistake. Well, I think the issue is who on the Pacers do you put your Biggs on

that will allow you to keep them close to the basketball? skit. Because everyone goes up in screens, everyone's spaces, everyone's like toggling out on the perimeter. He's going to put you in the mix. They're going to throw you out there. I bring up the starting lineup change. More to suggest something about how the series played out from the jump and also

how I think it might as we go through the series because it was kind of a statement of intent from both sides of it. Because not only did you have Kays and Wallace starting over Caruso, who I think we might have expected to get the nod considering how well he's played this postseason. But then the Pacers, all of a sudden, going to Ben Shepard, way early.

than they had. They basically kept them on ice until the fourth quarter to guard Brunson basically played off the floor and then they kind of went from there. We see Top and Nett Center, which another thing may be expected, but these are two coaches that aren't going to be precious about anything. And so I almost wonder, like, we're talking about,

oh, should they go too big? I wouldn't be surprised if Dagnol's, if he thinks that's the way to go. We'll do that from the jump in the next game. Definitely possible. I think the way in which they were both little precious is these are two teams that went basically 10 deep in this game. That will not hold over the course of the series, like the AJ Mitchell minutes will just kind of evaporate as you go.

Blue my brain. Especially if you're getting the two games off. Yeah. I was expecting to see fewer players, not this many. No one really stretched like that far minutes-wise. You know, Shea with 40, Tyrese Halliburton with 39. That's very manageable for both of those guys who know how to like regulate themselves over the course of a game and also aren't put in like high leverage defensive assignments

either for the most part. I just think over the course of this thing, you're going to see the minutes winnowed down. And that's where if you're getting really good OB-topping minutes, and that's what what the Pacers got in the second half. And it's like, then you don't have to lean on Thomas Bryant as much. Then you don't have to, like, you can control your lineup construction a little bit more. And the Thunder have their own versions of that.

They just have to figure out, I think, first and foremost, what they want to do with the Bigs and who they want to play them with and in what configurations. To me, like, Carlisle, especially against the Knicks, it was just like 35 minutes for Halley, 36 minutes. I'm like, bro. Yeah. Get that to the 40s. Same with Shea.

Like, 40 is not, he got to play 44 minutes. This is the finals. Like, he has to up his minutes. And the stretch where it started getting away from them a little bit, I'm screaming at Thunder players like, guys, we get it. Throughout the course of the entire regular season, everybody's got a green light, you know? Like, Lou Doher, take a step back three if you want,

with 24 seconds left on the shotgun. Everybody, guys, this is the finals. Get the ball in your freaking MVP's hands. okay and I think they got a up his minutes man he got to be up at that 43 44 you know I'm not saying he should play the whole game I bet you if timidow was his coach he would but I think those minutes both Tyrese and Shay definitely gonna have to creep up it's just like a whatever it takes situation and the Pacers played more of a whatever it takes game on balance not not even just the minutes thing but 32 combined rebounds for Pascal seaccom Aaron knee Smith Tyrese Halliburton

granted the Thunder took a lot more shots but in order to save a game like this you have to pull down those possessions and good Lord Aaron Neesmith in particular who did not have the best game in the world even by his standards just in the fourth came down with monster contested rebounds

that you just have to get you absolutely have to get yeah in a lot of ways the pacers just kind of are who they were they made slight adjustments but ultimately the end result was the one that we've seen a lot of times in this post season but like when Dagnall went to A.J. Mitchell for a couple minutes

I think at the time I was like bold and inventive move from this. It's good for us sickos. We love A.J. Mitchell. We genuinely love to see it. We can't wait for him to join the Seattle Supersonics, our number two, three draft pick and the expansion draft that we did earlier this season. I like the boldness. I just like when coaches try things because how many times do coaches just fall back into their typical rhythms? Yes.

Looking back on it, though, I'm like, huh, maybe it's a little too much. Maybe we did a little too much in a game one where like we probably should have won this game. so funny because typically, and I guess it's just the way the league is changing. Like, a game one would just be like, both teams would be like, we're going to do what we've been doing all year in game one. This is a figuring

out, period. Like, it's one game. Like, we're going to show what we've shown all season and then take it from there. Like, the idea that they both would just like, no, rip it up. We're just trying completely new things in the first game of the series. I just think, yeah, like you said, it is a sign of some level of balls, man.

I think some of that from the Thunder perspective is what they have done all season is kind of this. It's been, this guy's been hurt, that guy's been out, we're going to play this way, we're going to adjust the starting lineup, this guy's going to play more now in this matchup, and then, like, that's really worked for that. Like, that's why they're so good is you can just play Caruso as a big if you want to and take one of the big Zadalina.

You can play Kaysen Wallace as a starter if you want to. It's just usually you get to the point where it's like, other team is making you do stuff. And I think we're reaching that point pretty early in terms of which players just like aren't as good a fit for this matchup over. Like maybe Aaron Wiggins just like isn't a great matchup here for the Thunder.

Yeah, that has been a little disappointing. Some of those like secondary guys, the Wiggins, the Joe's, I guess in this case, AJ Mitchell for the minutes he plays, they really haven't had much of an impact in the postseason. And these are the guys we all expected. If you just like roll the dice, one of them, was at least going to have a moment.

It just doesn't seem like Joe can score. I like so that was my thunder critique all years like look I love Shay as much as everybody but in the playoffs like Isaiah Joe Wiggins Kenrich Williams all these other dudes are going to have to step up like in major ways and guess what the first three rounds man again especially against Denver they had some wonderful contributions from role guys you know and it's only one game like I was still expected Thunder to play to pull this series out. I think they've shown they've got some level of toughness. They can play better than they show tonight. But like these I don't know if it's going to be because of the bench. I think

it's going to be because Shea and Chet and Jay will play better, like straight up. Yeah. I think we have to do a segment based off of the old NFL live jacked up segment. We have to do the step up. So hey,

Kaysen Wallace. Step up. Step up. Because I got to say, like, he starts. Yeah. And typically is a pretty reliable outlet. Yep. Unfortunately, not this playoffs.

And that was my one concern when they did start him. I asked you, my friends, I was like, huh, Kaysen Wallace over Caruso. And you guys are like, well, the shooting. And I was like, oh, okay, that's right. I just, he's not this type of guy in a high leverage situation, I think is going to nail those shots. And he's just like a little bit more iffy. I would say the Nuggets series would tell you otherwise. like hit some absolutely essential shots in a seven-game series.

When you have Alex Caruso, not only with the cool headband celebration, but just engorged testicles based off of what he's done this postseason? No, I agree with that. I mean, you know, look, I think if you feel like you need to be more offensive focused, you could make the case that Wallace is a better, more well-rounded offensive player, especially on the dribble, like attacking off of drives and stuff like that. I just think Caruso is a better player. He is a better player.

There's no question that he's a better player. You know, and so put your best five out there instead of being like, oh, well, we're going to be challenged in these areas when we have the ball. So let's let this guy sort of lift us up in that way. I just think, to Justin's point, Caruso's been so money, so nails the entire playoffs. He probably should have got that. And again, it showed he ends up playing. 28 minutes in this game off of the bench.

I don't have any problem with getting Alex Crusoe more minutes. I don't have any problem with getting your best five out there for as much as you possibly can. I would guess that the reason he came off the bench is because he's better than Kaysen Wallace. And because so in bringing Khruso off the bench, you're offsetting two things. One, now

when Shay comes off the floor, more of those are going to be Kuroso minutes where his ball handling is actually pretty important and his passing is pretty important. And Ludo is probably also coming off the floor for some of those minutes and Kurosos on ball defense is pretty important. So it's like you're almost asking him to bail out some of these other lineups when your important players are not out there. But

I think the answer to that is you just have Alex Cruzo play 36 minutes and not 28. You know, like, you can bring him off the bench, but he needs to be, he needs to play Monu Genobley minutes if you're going to do that. Yeah, obviously has had injuries not only in the past, but this season, maybe they're managing him a little bit more. It's the finals.

But it's the final. So Alex Caruso step on. And it brings me to my last step up. Alex Crusoe's ligaments, step up. Got to get harder. Chad Holmgren. Step the fuck off. Step up.

I got to be honest. A little disappointed. It seemed like the lines were a little too. This is our worst segment of the entire history of the five. He's the best. I think it's going to be on the highlight real toward the end. We do one shining moment for our bits. Yeah.

It's going to be me just, well, two for nine in this game. Just seemed completely out of sorts. It's really disappointing considering the way he finished the Wolf series. It seemed like everything was just working so beautifully. And he's a part of that. Like, J-dub, all-MBA guy.

Shade Gildrous Alexander, all-M-B-A guy. Chet is waiting in the wings, just waiting for that breakout. And I thought he was ready for that moment, but he did not, in fact, step up. Yeah. He's just straight-up has to be better. And someone has to be creative deployment. Like, you know, I think we saw that, especially, I would say,

over the course of the Minnesota series, like, where are you putting him on the floor to make him, like, best, to make the best use of his talents? It can't just be sitting in the corner. Like, you have to put him sometimes on the, baseline, especially if the Pacers are going to be this aggressive helping up top against Shea, overloading the top of the floor, you got to be coming from the backside of it. And that's a great place for Chet to operate.

He took one three today, which throughout this run, a lot of the times when it felt like the the, the most biggest backbreaking moments have felt like Chet three point makes. When the thunder have that sort of, you know, that in their hip pocket, it can feel like, all right, like, how to hell do I rotate against this team? when this kid's going to just splash threes on your head. And again, when he's making those shots, it sets up his drive game.

And, I mean, he ended up taking nine shots in 24 minutes. It's not like he was being timid. It was just bad. He just has to be just better than that. And look, Miles Turner, man, you know, he's been one of our favorites for so long.

He played an incredible defensive game. Just giving, like, great contests at the rim. Like the reason why Chet is looking like a pumpkin, like Miles Turner had this guy in the smash. And so, you know, like, we've come to think of Miles Turner as an offensive first kind of player. It was like early in his career. He was seen as like a defensive specialist,

but just crazy how that flips. But he kind of turned back the clock and looked like, you know, one of these big time kind of defensive centers. Had some huge contests, especially on some of those J-dub drives. Yes. Where if he's not there, then all of a sudden, that's a dunk. That's a really easy layup.

And instead, it's banging off the backboard and the pacers are going the other way. It's been a decade anywhere, man. You're going to find different versions of yourself. All of a sudden, hosting a podcast in front of this beautiful studio, you know? How are you feeling about that? I didn't expect to be here, but, you know, I feel like a much more complete player as a result of all the different options. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad to have seen the many versions of Justin over the years.

Are you? You know, from afar up close? I don't believe you. I will say when Chet is in there, in the smaller looks, it just seems like it completes them in a way that I think they feel they're most comfortable. Even toward the end there, he was like closing out on a live shooter on three point line. It's just like how does this mountain of a man,

not mountain, but like a stick of a man basically go from the paint to the three point line in the way that he does having his length out there. It matters. And so it is Kason Wallace being so important to that team. But on the same side, Chet not being able to give them what they need. is why they had to finish so small. The Pacers cut this thing down to six. Thunder end up, they cut it down to six in the third quarter.

And that's when I'm like, oh, okay, we might have something. Shea splashes a step back three at the buzzer, up nine. Thunder end up pushing, I guess, to like, 15 in the fourth quarter, all while Shea is on the bench. And again, like 40 minutes is a lot of minutes. It's not a BS workload, but like, pull the trigger on that quicker. Get these, you have to rip these guys' hearts out. Like, you literally have to do it.

And Shea ends up being plus three and 40 minutes in a game they lose by one. Like, your best guy, your MVP guy, like, y'all not going to win the finals because of, you know, all of this developmental projects that they have. You're going to win the finals because Shea Gilders Alexander is doing it for you. So that's what I would say to Dagnall, man. I want to see Shea out there more. So Rob, you're Mark Dagnall. Yeah. You got the team around you.

Hello, I'm Mark Dagnol. There you go. I sound just like him. It's clearly been working on that one. Yeah. You went to the University of Connecticut, so you are a champion in your heart of heart. Thank you. You have really cool photos of you and Alice Caruso from your G League Day.

That is circling, circulating. The suit looks great. Yeah. Haircut was great as well. What are you telling your team? What's like number one on the board? What's our first move? What's the one thing we're going to do better than this one?

Honestly, what is the first thing? Like, I would point to all of the ways in which this was a winnable game. Like, this was in your hands. The Pacers, if I'm not mistaken, their first lead of the game was on Tyrese Halliburton's jumper. I didn't know that. First lead to the entire game. They led the game for 0.3 seconds. Yes.

Oh, my God. And so I think my film session would be all of those. the kinds of runs was just outlined, where you're pushing to 12, you're pushing to 15, and then all of a sudden at yo-yo's back to 4 or 6. Like, what are we losing in those moments?

Because that's where we've seen throughout these playoffs, the Thunder pull away from so many different teams. What is it that's separating us and this one from everything we've ever done before? And I would bet if you go back and look, it's a lot of Aaron Neesmith coming up with 50-50 balls. It's a lot of not converting some of those contested drives

around the basket. It's like not playing with force in a way where you need, not just force, just playoff force, but NBA finals level of force. Like it is a totally different threshold of the energy you have to approach these games with. And you saw players like, Oby Toppin, not ready for that. Like came out

was not ready for the intensity of this game. I think the Thunder by the second half, maybe it was somewhat that they thought they had it in hand. Maybe they felt because they had forced so many turnovers in the first half, because they disrupted the pacer so much, we've got these guys. Like we have their number. We know how they execute. We can get ahead of them and they let go of the rope

a little bit. Like I don't have any way of explaining it other than to say the Pacers didn't play that way in the second half. They came out with a dramatically different tact because they're the Indiana Pacers and this is what they do. And if you do not kill these guys, if you do not slit their throat on the hardwood, they will win. Double tap. So, but like to me philosophically, it's interesting because, you know, on the one hand,

you have the Celtics who go up by 20 against the Knicks and take 18 threes in the third quarter of that game, right? And it's like, this is what we do. Like, if you're diagonal, like, some of this offensive recklessness, that's what y'all do. So does he come in and say, look, guys, we have to play a more deliberate form of half-court offense than we have in a regular season. Like, yo, like, Lou Doort, maybe pass up a three or two. J-dub. Yeah.

Like, he, some of the shots were just so quick. maybe we need to be a little bit more patient in our offense. Maybe some guys need to have a little bit less of a green light because, again, we're playing for the biggest stakes in our sport. But you wonder if that can be the message. Like, that's kind of like the coach's dilemma. It's like, do you change who you are based on situation thereby being like, oh, well, coach doesn't want me to shoot.

You're like sapping these guys of a certain level of confidence. It's a tough balancing action. Tough balance, but I personally would like to see the thunder like with a little bit more of a hierarchy on offense. I really do. I know that's made them invincible all season, but like this is it, man. This is the championship is on the line.

Here's what's tricky about that. Like, I don't disagree with you. And I do think Shay could have pushed in this game a little bit more. He shot 30 times. Like you said, Rob, he probably could have shot 37. Yeah, like I, and I think that might have won the game. If he had been a little bit more pushy in some of those situations. Look, when you've shot 30 times, it's hard to do that, even if you are a superstar.

It's hard to push that far out of that volume. Guys have to kind of mentally click into place to do that. That's the reason they lost this game is because the Pacer scored 35 points in the fourth quarter. Like, that's why they lost. The 25 probably would have been good enough if the Thunder defense had been the Thunder defense, but it was not. They got overwhelmed in the way that basically every other Pacer playoff opponent has gotten overwhelmed over time. that's incredible, that's impressive. I also want to salute Rick Carlisle,

who we have not talked about yet, not just for the mechanics of altering this game in the second half, letting these guys play on the final possession, trusting that they would make the right plays, especially Tyreys Halliburton. That's how you get a look that is that clean, relatively speaking, even if it is bobbled on the way up,

like it was a pretty clean pull-up. That's how we do it here too. We just let the ball loose and we just play through it. Yeah. Just like that comment. Paces. Pacers over the course of this game, 20 in the first, 25 in the second, 31 in the third, 35 in the fourth.

Yep. They just got stronger and stronger as the game went on. And, you know, to that point again, I'd like to see Hallie take more than 13 shots. I know they won. You know, he got up seven-threes, which is a nice amount for him. He could probably get up a little bit more. But I'd like to see him sort of hunting his shot. And I know against this team with these defenders,

it's a tougher road to, you know, sort of slay. But, like, I think, I think Halley has to be more aggressive as well. I think the other reason you see some of that, one, like, he usually has Lou Doord on him a lot of the time. And that's another reason you go to Andrew Nemhard sometimes is, like, let's go around this kind of, like, really thwarting defender. That said, I thought the most heartening part of the game for the Pacers, other than fucking winning it on a game winner, was when Halliburton got a little aggressive in the mid-range, when he started pulling up a little bit, getting even just the sliver of daylight. That is the threshold against the thunder. If you get a sliver of daylight, it's probably good enough.

And you should, if you're, how are you salibur, and you should take that shot. So I just looked it up. Shea has taken 30 or more attempts in a game four times this season. Now, a lot of games were kind of out of hand for the Thunder because they do have a tendency to knock teams out early. Three in the regular season, once against the wolves in the previous series, the big game where, was it game five, where they wanted the distance. Yeah. What's weird about that, too, is it's not like they. laid him to shoot. It's not like

the Pacers zeroed out all the shooters and dared Shade Gilgist Alexander to beat them. In fact, I would say in the second half they did the opposite of that and tried to overload on him as much as possible and he still got 30 shots up and he still looked really good doing it. Like he still looked like the MVP basically every step of the way.

I think there are two silver linings for the Thunder. Yes, they forced 25 turnovers, but they didn't get a lot of points out of it. They could get 11 points out of so few turnovers in the next game. That could balance itself out. score more on those, right? This is just what they do. Maybe they could be in more as a result of it. On the other side, they kind of had their bad three-point shooting game.

The numbers don't look awful, but other than Dore, other than Shea, nobody really shot well. And so if those guys are chipping in a little bit more, all we're talking about is the slim of margins. So maybe they had their bad game, and this was just a result of it. It was just going to burn a little bit more than it. It's entirely possible. I think this is the danger with the Pacers is there have been a lot of teams along the way who were supposedly better than them. You lose one of these games and the whole series looks different from that point. This is, this was the other thing going back to the Knicks series. I was like, the Knicks were in serious trouble because if you don't win game two,

you're out of this. You're done. Their backs are against the wall. Yes. They have to win this game. Have to. Yes. especially at home.

Must win game two. Must. Her senior staff writer, Wasney-Lam-Franes. It's a must-win game too because you're going back to Indiana and now you have to win four out of five games

against these dudes. Really? Really? It's tough. Like, they have to come out and win all Sunday. This is what the Pacers do to you, though. Because you come out in the next game,

if you're the Thunder. Say you have a great first half again. It's in the back of your head. We did this. and we lost. Say you build a double-digit lead and it's in the back of your head. We did this and we still lost.

This is the most remarkable thing I've ever seen. Do we have a name for the Pacers? Yeah. The Indiana Pacers. We're not running with the yes sirs. It's terrible. The Unkillable? The Unkillables?

Pacers. Yeah. We can't be the zombie Pacers. No. The bulletproof Pacers? The thing is they're not zombies, though. It's not like you've put them the ground. The problem is you didn't quit them.

You left them for dead. And you thought yet they are unkillable. That's zombie properties, though. I don't think so. Yeah. That's the undead. Rob's been reviewing the last one for us. He's just differentiated between zombies and undead? No, I'm saying the zombies are undead and therefore died

and then came back to life. I'm arguing that the Pacers never die. I see. That's the thing is they don't die. So they're like Superman. You can't kill them. Yeah. The Super Pacers? They're too many pieces? They're like resputant, I think. we're like Rupert Murdoch sure

if you're past few Pacers look I got nothing better for you didn't have poison handy

I think this is one area we can throw it to our loyal listeners if you have an idea of what we should call

the Pacers a snappy nickname of some kind email us at ringer group chat at gmol.com I think that's

our email address you're the only one that looks at it I'm pretty sure it's ringer group chat

at gmill dot com or just you know hit us on social media whatever okay yeah we're a little

overloaded with plant help. We could use some actual things of the show. It did occur to me. Do you think the reason the Pacers won this game is because the spirit

of your corn flowed through them? Your corn sacrificed themselves to carry Indiana to a game won victory. Well, gentlemen, I'll tell you before I left Portland to be with you guys here in Los Angeles.

I was in the garden a little bit, setting up the automatic sprinkler. I looked across the horizon, but also at my garden bed, which was right in front of me. And I looked at the ground where the corn bros once were. Yeah. It's all a little sprout in the ground.

You can't kill the corn. Okay. Corn's back. You cannot kill the corn. I mean, look, it's a little on the nose, but maybe there's a children of the corn thing here. We can play with. I'm just saying, like, we're just going to workshop it. See, I don't even know what the lore of the children of the corn. I don't remember the lore of that. I think they were undead

children. He used to come on Cinemax all the time. Yeah? And like the mom and pop. What else were you watching? What was it? Emmanuel in outer space? Jesus Christ. You're talking about Jesus Christ You guys like your camera angles

For this podcast? I don't even know what they look like I didn't look at the camera once But there I am Great angles How do you feel about yours? I got a glimpse at it on the big board Right before recording

I told you guys I just don't think it was the most flattering look Why are you calling it out? I'm honest with the people That's my thing In an industry with some of the most Vain people On planet Earth

Justin manages to be the most vain of any of them. There is one diva on this podcast. Oh, come on. We all know who it is. All right. Hollywood Mahoney over there. I see you with that light stubble. They're like Hulk Hogan out there.

Thanks. I don't know how to take that one. It's ultimately a compliment. Oh, thank you. He lived a long career before he just went up to deep. Yeah, he just haven't gotten to that part. Well, I look forward to the snap. All right.

Why don't we wrap it there? We'll be back after game two. Late Sunday, Monday. We'll figure it out. But thank you to all the people on the production end. Isaiah Blakely, Ben Cruz, as per usual. Victoria Valencia. John Richter, the whole crew here in LA.

We'll be back for game two. Talk to you then. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in D.C. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. Call 1-88-78-98-9-77-7-7 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MD-Gamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline, ma.org or 800-327-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts. Or call 18778 Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.