The Ringer NBA Show - The Verriables: 2024-25 NBA Season | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos are together in studio for another edition of The Verriables. They start with discussing some of the rookie extensions that got signed today. Then they talk about four Verriables for the 2024-25 season (20:04).The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Victoria Valencia Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello football fans. Shield Capadia here to tell you that the Ringer NFL show is the best place to be for fun and in-depth analysis of all your favorite teams and players throughout the 2024 season. Join me, Stephen Ruiz and Deonté Lee twice a week for an insightful preview of the weekly slate of games every Friday, followed by the Big Monday Recap Show where we delve into our patented hot takes on all the NFL action. And don't forget about Wednesdays, which will feature me, a special QB segment from Stephen, a breakdown of the biggest storylines around the league from our own Nora Princiatti, plus much more.

You won't want to miss any of it, so make sure you subscribe to the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and follow at Ringer NFL on Instagram, TikTok X, and YouTube. And welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and standing before me on the eve of the 2024-2020-5 NBA season. season, Rob Mahoney.

I now have to crane my neck over to say hello to Big Waz. Your life is so hard. We are at the Spotify Studios. There's just a whole lot of people here coming into town. But here we are just grinding. Well, we get first dibs on studio space. We all know that. That's true.

Straight to the front of the line. There's nobody more important in podcasting than us. I was talking to producer Victoria just now. Today felt like the first day of school. Rob had his growth spurt. you know, Isaiah put on 15 pounds of muscle. Yeah, I have new shoes. Oh, yeah.

They look clean, though. This is a really cool feeling, man, to be back with you guys. Yep. And if you're watching this on video, maybe on YouTube, you could see me as I look over at Rob, and then when I look over at Waz, it takes maybe two seconds to get there. This is the most basic part of your job.

It's also something we've sat in this exact formation. I haven't liked it before. So many times. I've sat on this gripe for months. That's huge of you. No, exactly. Barrier has to let his pleasure be known. That's podcasting, baby.

I love it. That's the business. If you insist. So not only are we about to enter a new season, but today is also a very special day for the group chat podcast. Is it? Because it is part three, I think, of the variables. We're back.

What is a variable? I don't know. How is it felt? We still don't know. In fact, we spelt it the way you wanted to last time. I think we're going back to the original spelling this time. How did I want it spelled? I think you wanted the full barrier and then a ball.

Variarables. Yes, variables. I think it's a better bit if it's variables to me. But I think it's the same bit, especially in an audio format. I defer to your expertise as the leader of the variables. That's right. That's right. The core member of the variables.

So we'll get into four big old questions that might define this NBA season. First, we've got to talk about some rookie extensions. because as we were walking in here, we got some news coming in. There had been four leading into today, four guys from the class of, what is it, 2022? 2021. 2021, who had signed extensions over the summer. Those were all max extensions.

Now we're getting some of the more interesting ones, starting with Jalen Green. Three years, $106 million with a player option on the third year. He is 22 years old. So he could theoretically get back on the market 24, 25. years old. While it's kind of weird, what do you think? Super weird. Because I was thinking to myself, if I'm Jalen Green and how a lot of these high pedigreed players think of themselves, and we'll get to another one of these guys who didn't end up getting an extension, is like, you know, Franz Wagner went out and got $224 million. If I'm Jalen Green, I got to think, I can get 180, right?

I could get $1.90 if Franz Wagner, who he probably conceives of himself as a more talented player, can get all of that money. Why shouldn't he? The problem for Jalen Green is just he's never put that tape out. Like, he just hasn't put that much quality NBA minutes out. And the times that he did, it was like, it was March. It was late February. It's like three weeks, yeah. Yeah, like, you know, people who watch the NBA closely know that, like, that's around the time that all the teams that know that,

know their season is over, just stop caring. And so guys that are playing hard, playing like they have, you know, something to win, whether it be on the court or off, tend to shine in that situation. And it might not be indicative of like some greater trend for the player. And so Jalen Green has not done that much. But I think on his potential, not just where he was drafted, his measurables in terms of his athleticism and explosiveness. You know, he probably is a guy worth taking a shot on,

just not the kind of shot that earns you max money with max years. Well, the big difference, too, between the guys who are really getting paid right now and Jalen Green is those guys all have super well-rounded games. They're really good defenders. They're really good playmakers. Jailing Green, we're waiting to see kind of what the contours of his game are going to be. How good of a passer is he going to be?

Is he going to be more of a primary or more of a secondary or more of a tertiary or like hot guard coming off the bench potentially? He's a variable, you might say. perhaps. I think the other guys who landed the maxes also have proven enough at this point. Scotty Barnes, obviously, Kate Cunningham on the verge there. Evan Mobley was like a defensive player of the year candidate, even though we have gripes about his offensive games. These are guys who have clearly cemented themselves as players in this league. Green, we're still not sure. Maybe he could be a star. Maybe he could be a bus. I'm not sure. Like Woz said, he only had about

a month or so of good play there toward the end of last season. I think my thing is like if he does show himself to be a star caliber within the means, like, under this contract in the next two or so years, three years, because it's this year plus the next two. Then he just walks as like right in his prime 20-something-year-old player.

I can't remember the last guy who did that. The structure of this deal to me from a rocket's perspective makes it feel like a trade would be coming potentially. Sure. I mean, it's clearly not a long-term investment. I assume just because they couldn't agree on the dollar figure. And so up front, Jalen Green is not making as much money as perhaps he would want, but you're not getting

that long-term commitment. You're getting the potential opt-out. And from Jalen Green's perspective, you're getting a chance to come into this season, which anything could happen with Houston's rotation. He's going to have to find his place in it. They're going to have to sort out what kind of team they want to be. And if a trade does go down, he'll have a little time left to prove himself before he can hit the market again. I think for him, that's not a bad situation, considering the sort of rocky start to his NBA career. I think it's interesting that the Rockets and Jail. Gray are making kind like this somewhat opposing bets right um it's i think jalen green's admission that you know the maxy season that we got last year is not coming from him like i think he just like you

have to see it that way it's like oh i'd be willing to hit restricted free agency and somebody's going to max the hell out of me because i have a bona fide all-star season coming well but that's there's believing you are that guy and there's believing you're going to going to get the chance to be that guy again. And those are, I think, for the rockets, especially kind of different things. Yeah, and I think the rockets are like, well, I guess there's a chance. So let's lock them in for something way under that right now. It's just, those are just two competing ideas to me where it's like the rockets are like there's a small chance that it might happen. And Jalen Green basically saying there's none. So I'm going to take this deal right now

and bet that with two more years to show who I actually am. I can get a contract that's, you know, commiserate with my actual abilities. It feels also notable and relevant that Shams was reporting that the Rockets are not offering Alperin Shangoon, who's also eligible for an extension, max money. And so clearly there's some haggling to be done there. And I think some definition as far as like what the future of this team is. You know, maybe Jalen Green is the face of it. Maybe Shangoon is the face of it.

Maybe they're both there long term. Ultimately, we don't know. But they're not making the Franz Wagner, Kate Cunningham level commitment to Shangoon, despite the fact that he's one of the most productive players. in this draft class. Yeah, I assume the Rockets would go through this period without signing either of those guys in order to preserve cap space going into next summer and then extend off of that. Now it's a little bit more complicated where they're doing kind of a half measure. Maybe Green was like insistent that he get paid now and this sort of short term agreement is some sort of middle

ground between the two. It's just like, it's really weird. It reminds me a lot of like Joe Johnson coming off the suns and all of a sudden he's like a max player in his mid-20s. Like we don't see this in 2024, 2025 NBA. And so it's like a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, whole new wrinkle here. So I'm, I'm interested to see how it pays out. Honestly, I don't see where green like stays and becomes a star there long term, but I guess we'll see. Why don't we talk about the Warriors? Because they had two bits of news here. One, they did sign Moses Moody to three years, $39 million. He is presumably going to play minutes this year. We'll see. We'll see. We've been here before. I know. Jonathan Kaminga will play minutes.

We'll start, but he's not going to get an extension according to ESPN. So a little weird. it just shows you the nuances of the NBA business structure where a guy who gets treated as an aftermath, I mean, excuse me, aftermath, afterthought last year and Moody could get a deal done, right? Come in and the worries be like, no, we're going to take care of your contract. Like, let's figure this out. If Camingo wants to take three years 39 million, I imagine they would accept that. Sure. But they were like, no, we can get you done, right? Even though you were completely marginalized by the end of last season, almost to the point of, like, people are like, is this guy even going to be on the team next year kind of thing? Whereas Kaminga, you know, he kind of

pouted his way into a starting position on last year's team. And the Warriors don't make it a point to make sure they lock him in, which shows me that, like, I think they're obviously at an impasse in terms of where they think his value is. And I just think that's interesting. Like, the who has a definitely going to start, definitely going to get heavy minutes, can't get a deal, but Moody, who didn't matter at all, gets a deal.

They kind of can't win without him right now. Jonathan Camille's a really important warrior, and at the same time, true to this conversation, one of the hardest players, I would say in the entire league to peg a dollar value to, to say,

this is what we're comfortable paying this guy with, and even our system. His value is so very, God, I'm just stepping in it. It's so variable. You're ready for it. depending on your system. But even in a trade value context,

understanding like what other teams think of Jonathan Cumminga, the range is incredibly wide. Yeah, I mean, and also he seems like he wants to play more three. He's putting up more threes. I don't know how that's going to go. It seems like he's constantly in this battle of being the big man, like the hyper-athletic big man that he is versus the player that he wants to be, which is this is much more sexy wing sort of player that sell sneakers and whatnot.

I just don't know if he'll ever be that player. And so I could see those two things come into a collision over a contract. So I'm not surprised. Also, if you need to trade him for a star package this season, it gives the next team the ability to figure that out. I assume they'll just end up in the same place. But we'll see. As far as Moody, it's like $13 million a year.

That's like totally fine money. It's not even Ser's money, especially at the position he plays. And so again, like, I think you just take that just because it seems fine. That's less than mid-level money. Oh, yeah. Totally reasonable. And these are the kinds of extensions we see. It's usually the high-end guys, the clear stars, and then like what role players can we make something work on?

And that's why, you know, we're taping this a little in advance of the extension deadline. I would not be surprised to see Isaiah Jackson, Corey Kisper. Like those guys could get reasonable deals on extensions, but the kumingas are not, like not because they're not good players, but because it doesn't behoove them to lock themselves in. Last guy, as we record this, Trey Murphy, four years, 112 million. Pretty good. Yeah. So that's like $28 million a year. That could be of lower end of where he ends up if he does pop this year.

He is hurt right now, so we'll see. But I think the big thing is just Brandon Ingram. Like if you're him, I'm like, what the fuck? Again, nobody in their right mind would say that Trey Murphy III is a better player than Brandon Ingram. But because of how salaries are structured in the NBA, it's just easier to get this role player done. and the four-year commitment, no player options or anything like that. Like, this is good business.

I think at $28 million per, I think Trey Murphy could have probably, if he really wanted to fight and wait to hit the open market, he'd probably get like $35. But the security of locking himself in for four years was very tantalizing, so he took it. Especially a guy who's had some injury issues.

Yep. Not, you know, I get the bet, just from a value standpoint, from a security standpoint, lock in the money, see what you can do going forward. I think he has a lot of potential. Before the Pelicans play you at center.

Yeah. And, you know, these three and D guys who are more on the three side than the D, where, like, I feel like most teams is just like, look, if you could be passable on the wing and shoot the way this guy does, like, you are an extremely valuable commodity to any team that thinks they're trying to contend. And so, like, this deal makes all the sense. Yep. All right.

Next one on the list. Jalen Suggs, yet another Orlando Magic extensions. they're just making a rain out there. Five years, 150.5 million. Got to get that point five in there. So about $30 million a year. So less than Jalen Green per year,

still a lot of money, but this seems like a pretty reasonable deal for a guy who seems like he's part of their identity and core. Totally. I think when you put it in context, this is Devin, Vassell, Jaden McDaniel's kind of money. That seems reasonable for me

for one of the best wing defenders in the league. Like an absolute bulldog out there. really good offball playing the lanes defensively. I think showed last year, which was like his first remotely healthy season, that he still has some room to grow offensively. So I like the investment for him. Yeah.

One, obviously, that role of being the sort of head of the snake of a team that prods itself on being defense first, like he's integral to how their style of defense. They can be that aggressive because they have somebody like him at the point of attack. And I think this contract is a reward for finally making his shots last year. You know, he's close to 40% on threes,

which, like, his rookie year, like, I think we were, like, pretty bullish on him, but, like, it wasn't because he was showing any of the stuff on offense, and he finally showed that. And I think, you know, he's one of those classic, you know, nose for the ball, hard-nose, low-maintenance kind of guys. And he fits him with the crew. I get it.

He's super complimentary to the two guys that they've, already invested in as the future. And so it makes sense that it's like, look, he's going to be our starting point guard. And this is what starting point guards get. So stops to him. I think he's also quite as kept really important to the sort of like vibe and physicality of that team. And so if you want to keep the good energy going and the momentum going, this is part of what you do is you take care of the guys who got you here.

And yeah, if there's stuff to sort out later, you sort it out later. One of the rare guys who didn't live up to who we thought he would be pre-chaffed, but found like a nice little niche for him that is still super valuable. And if anything, this contract on a potential bargain might make them more valuable than Wagner making the full max, you know? And like if they ever get into a situation where they have to trade one, I wonder if that sort of financial difference makes a bit of a difference in who they choose one or the other.

Interesting. Last one here, Corey Kisper in Washington. This is what happens when you play good basketball for, a couple months. You get four years, $54 million. Obviously, looked more like the 3-and-D sort of guy last year that we all thought he might be,

or at least the three-part. I guess it pays to hit your three-point shoot. I think he's more than just threes, though. Like, he's actually a really good cutter. I think he can handle a little bit. He's just, like, showing enough other things to make me feel like he's not just a guy you stash in the corner,

or even just the guy you run off of screens into, like, off-ball jumpers. I think he's got enough going for him. And honestly, it's just like one of the more reliable wizards overall. And so for the sake of continuing anything that you had going, and especially because it's a really valuable player type, why not? Yeah, I just love that he was able to get him up at volume, especially on a team like the Wizards was not like there's a lot of guys

setting you up and putting you a position to get these quality looks off. And so that he was managing to get off like over six threes a game is crazy. and, you know, super accurate at that. And so, like, yeah, that's a valuable commodity. Obviously, nobody's going to ask him to, you know, dribble the air out the ball anytime soon. But, you know, he's a physical guy, too. He's like, he's not a small person for his position,

which helps, you know. So, you know, it's a great deal for him. He got Moody money, essentially. It's a little bit more, probably because he's more in line for a starry position than Moody, but, like, this is what shooters get in the NBA at this point. Moody money sounds pretty good. Yeah.

Do you guys want to rank the most reliable wizards? I mean, now that Denny's gone, that's... It's a bleak list. Drop off is fast. Valenus won. Kisbert Kuzm. I think Kuzma is the most reliable. Yeah.

I think Valentunis is too. What about Vukchavich? He's on the roster. Did you make it? He's still on it. This NBA season on Fandle, you can make every play, pass, and point mean more. America's number one sports book. And right now, new customers can bet $5 and get $300 in bonus bets if your first bet wins. Fandle has all of your favorite bets from who will win the game to

how many points a player will score. Plus, check out cool bets like number of dunks or assists or three-pointers in the next three minutes. It doesn't matter if you tap into Fandle before the game starts or after it has already tipped off. So we're waiting for tip off of the NBA season coming on Tuesday. And so we're looking at those awards odds. We talked about them today on group chat. How about this one? Kate Cunningham Most Improved Player of the Year plus 2,500. Those are pretty good odds. Cade already had a pretty good season last year. Obviously, the Pistons did not. So I'm thinking the Pistons play a little bit better. His numbers go up with some actual shooters on that team. Maybe he's like 25 and 8, 25 and 10, get some double doubles in there, get the hype train going. I kind of like

him because he's the type of guy who wins that award. So lock that in. And whether you want to ride with my picks or have a hunch on your own, now is the perfect time to get in on the action. Just visit fandle.com slash ringer NBA for your chance to win $300 in bonus bets. Have a ball, betting ball with Fandle, official sportsbook partner of the NBA. Must be 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C. First, Real Money Wager only.

$5.1.1.1.1 deposit required. Bonus issued as non-witrable bonus batch which expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply see terms at sportsbook.Fandall.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. All right. I think that's it for work. Extensions. We'll circle back if there are any as we're recording this. But I think now we have to get

to the matter at hand. Are you ready for this? No. Welcome to the variables. I wasn't expecting thrash metal. I got to be honest. I don't know what I was expecting, Look, you're a true takesman and a true artist because you come back every year, the vibe is a little different. The genre is shifting constantly under our feet.

I never know what to expect from the variables. I think I googled Deathcore drop, and this was among the options. Okay. Death core. So how are you guys feeling about the variables? Death core. That's for Shreddy.

Yeah. Where do you hype? Oh, yeah, I'm super fired by the Death Corps. Where do you want to start? All right. First and foremost, a wide open MVP race. Have you ever been a metalhead of any kind?

No, I wouldn't say metalhead. No. We know about your sky era. Yeah, Screamo, emo, that sort of vibe. Of course, yeah. So I was like, I wore the studded belt, but then I had American Eagle on top of it. Oh, my.

So it was like... The full mall set. Hot topic, but also American. Yeah, it was just a little glimmer of edge, you know? kind of describes me, wouldn't you say? I would say so. It's very accurate. Okay, so MVP race.

Obviously, Yokic is going to be in the mix again. Indeed, probably not because he won't play enough games. But I assume voter fatigue will set it, and especially for Yokage. And so I'm expecting what could be a pretty thick MVP race. I assume it's going to be somebody different. Do you guys feel the same or do you think like Yokic still has a chance? Because he's won 3.4 at this point. I think he's one of four guys who I can actually see winning it.

Okay. And I would say the list of guys who could be on the ballot is much deeper. And that's where it gets really thick. But in terms of guys who can actually win MVP, Yokic, though I think overall the voting will be a little reluctant to give him another one, especially if the nuggets aren't as good as they were last year, which we don't expect them to be. Shea, Luca, Janus.

I think those are the guys who I could see it. Anyone else I kind of need to be talked into a little bit? Yeah, I think the fringes of guys, It's the kind of guys who have finished fifth in the past, the Tatum's, the Jalen Brunsons, the Jiamerantz. Those guys, I think, are on the fringes of the conversation for obvious reasons. Like, they just don't put out the sheer production that the top four guys that you just mentioned do. But if they have the right kind of magical season, I could see them, you know, vaulting themselves to the top of this list. It would be tough.

Yeah. You know, a lot of things would have to go wrong for the guys that are in front of them. But, you know, if the Knicks somehow went 62 games and Jalen Brunson is like, you know, the Pied Piper of all of that, like people, like the narrative swell around it, man, will be unbearable and unstoppable, you know, like I don't foresee them winning 62 games. But if everything broke right for them in terms of injury luck, you know, you could see that happening potentially. And same with John Morant, right? if Memphis comes out and just completely reestablishes themselves at the top of the West, and obviously that's going to be because Jai is playing incredibly well, then the same thing can happen. And, you know, the talk out of Boston about the FU season coming from Tatum because he didn't

play over LeBron and KD in the Olympics. We didn't even play over Derek White. Sure. But they play different positions, but I'm just saying, like, we've heard that talk coming out of Boston. So maybe Jason Tatum has that kind of season. and Boston as a team has an FU season goes out and wins 67 games or whatever the hell it is.

And yeah, like if they do something like that, I can see people be like, look, man, we've disrespected Tatum enough. You know, Boston media going nuts, and I can see that happening. But those guys are on the fringes. I think the guys Rob mentioned are at the forefront of that combo. Well, so it's an FU season, but also words are just words, guys.

That's right. They have no power unless you give them power. There's no pressure as well. There's no pressure. Because we're all going to die soon. Joe Maz has been on a heater. My favorite bit of that press crumb was he was saying that at his funeral in 40 years, none of the reporters are invited.

I want you guys to know in advance you're both invited to my funeral. Okay. I just want to get that out there. If I don't attend, would you be mad? Well, I mean, I'm dead. Well, you know, haunt me from the grave. You never know. So I think Tatum, yeah, it has to be at least mentioned.

I think Brunson is the one if you want to enter him into the top tier. I just think like the pathway there is so as you think New York is a buzz after the Liberty's title. Just wait until the Knicks get there. It would be insane. I do think, you know, what we're talking about these is like these four guys and then maybe Brunson cracks or maybe Tatum cracks it. I don't even mean in the sense that those guys would end up at fifth on the ballot.

Like Jalen Brunson could be third on the ballot by the end of the thing. I think he could win it. Especially with the injuries, especially with McKill Bridges not being able to shoot anymore. He needs to score 50 points at this point. We got to talk about that. I think that. The broader conversation as far as these guys go is who else can kind of storm, storm the party, storm the ballot. Obviously, Brunson and Tatum are among them.

I think there's a world in which like AD or LeBron, if the Lakers have an amazing season, would have their reputation to do it. Like, there is a certain voter demographic that is waiting to vote for LeBron. Yes. And he will get votes for that reason. And he's a fucking awesome player. Like, he's a really good player. And if they're any good, he will get votes. I think there's a world or wimby gets votes this season.

as like a fifth place MVP. That's right. We mentioned Jha. I think there's a world where Steph gets votes. I think there's a world where KD gets votes. I don't see those guys

winning it. Sure. And Embed, honestly, it would be very fitting and kind of funny if the year he really doesn't care about winning it.

He ends up winning. He like plays 67 games. Right. Because he doesn't hold on to it so tightly. Yeah. So who are you guys picking? No.

I'm picking Luca. Yeah. I think they're going to have close to as many wins as OKC. I know everybody thinks OKC is going to come out and blow the doors off of people, especially in the regular season.

But I think Dallas is going to be a really good regular season team, hungry off of the finals. And I just think his sheer production and output is going to outpace Shays, it's going to outpace even Yokic's, right? Even Yonis. And so that's why I think he's going to win the MVP this year. The win total is going to match it

plus his own production, which is always, sky high anyway. That's the thing. He already met the criteria to be selected and just hadn't been selected. And so his case in a lot of ways is the most straightforward. The production is unimpeachable. The record, I agree, will be better and will be a little more commensurate to what MVP's usually are coming from, which is a top four or five seed, you know, like with a really good win, like a competitive win total relative to the top of the conference. Yes. I think he's got to be there. So in NBA history, there are only 15 instances of 27 points, eight rebounds, eight assists.

Luca already has five of them. Wow. And he's actually getting better as he goes along. He's scoring more. Like, Kyrie hasn't cut into his numbers to the point where that's a concern. Yeah.

I think if they win enough games, he wins it. Since we're doing just awards ballots, who do you guys have? Do you want to do most improve? Most improve is kind of bullshit, but it's always kind of bullshit. I have giddy down just because I think he's going to be pretty good there.

Interesting. He's who I think I want to win, but it typically just goes to a player who scores more. Yeah. And so I think Cade Cunningham might actually win it. I can see that. He just puts up 20 and 10 every game.

They win enough. They're like, oh, Cade's a guy again. His numbers are already pretty good, though. He's already close. It's just like the game total wasn't there. Yeah, I picked Mello Ball. If he comes out and he drops like 25, 26 a game, which is completely possible on his horrible-ass team,

I can see Voters being like any plays. Right? Like, if he plays the 67 games, averages 26, you know, is obviously, you know, like a fringe all-star. Voters are going to be like, oh, my God, he broke out. And really it's like he's playing, actually. And so it's such a wonky award. That's why I had Mellow Ball because I could see the production actually happening from him this year.

It's super wonky. I don't like picking young players for this, but I think we're going to be talking about Jalen Williams very differently at the end of this year. Sometimes you can just kind of feel it in the air a little bit. And he had moments in that Dallas series where he'd kind of got lost, lost in the mix. But overall, I think still played a really smart playoff overall,

still played a really solidly all throughout, good two-way player. I just think he has a lot going for him. He's the type of guy who wins it. Yeah. So I could see that. Defensive player of the year, we all have Wembe. So I said if what I had, no, what I had, what I had put down, I was like, if I had any balls, I would pick Mowbli, actually.

Because I could see that getting the Cavs being. He's your guy now. You're taking it. He's not my guy. It's just, I just know. how voters think, and if the Cavs have a dominant regular season finishing the top two, say,

in the East, and, you know, they continue to have one of the better defenses in the league. I could see voters being like, look at all of those wins. They're going to win way more games than San Antonio, right? And them saying, like, Mowbly is the anchor of the defense, blah, blah, blah, blah. He is the anchor of the defense. They're not just saying

it. It's true. I know. I get it. I'm just literally just talking out loud with voters do. But then I was just like, who am I freaking kidding. Like, it's not even just that Wembe is a great defensive player already. It's that he's already getting the national TV looks. He's like, the narrative swell around him is already happening.

So it's definitely going to be Wemby. But if, you know, if I was like going to put some money on it to get some like nice, expected value in return, yeah, good odds. Yeah, good odds. It'd be, uh, Mowgli. Okay. It's going to be Wemby, though. Yeah, I think Wimby might win the next 10.

Do you guys remember simpler times in the summer of 20s? 2003, when Waz bravely camped out on the corner, that Wemby was not going to be good. That never happened. I don't know what they're talking about. I don't remember that.

I do not remember that. I said it was possible. I didn't say I was betting more. I said it was possible. Now, you camping out on the corner that maybe Josh Giddy wasn't all that, you might be right. Listen, Alvin might be right.

We'll see. I was a pioneer in that. Listen, when Josh Giddy has 16, 8, and 8 this year on a really bad team for the 23rd ranked offense. Let's go. Can I just tell you guys something? It's just the three of us here.

I kind of like the Bulls this year. Oh my God. Did you see Lonzo ball back out there? The Lonzo vibes are good. But it also like when he plays, they make sense in a way that they did when he last played. That's true.

He just like automatically, almost like by muscle memory, ran like a little pick and roll with Levine where he gave him the ball. He instantly rolled and was open. And I'm just like, holy shit. Even Levine seems more dangerous when he's doing that. He's just like constantly moving and when you have all

of those guys, Levine, white, giddy, those are just like big wings who move and move the ball. I see the theory. I don't think it's necessarily going to work on a high level, but like it could be a playing team. High level playing team. Well, I mean, look, the threshold in the east is pretty low for that

kind of thing, so I'm not totally ruling it out. I just, I don't love the roster. I do love Lonzo. I do love elements of their team. Love Lonzo. I'm interested, to see what they've got. Honestly, I'm interested to see what Josh Gidey has got. I'm talking down to him a little bit, but I think we're all curious to see what he could do if you give him

a lot of leash. Yeah. I just am not convinced it to play in team. All right. Sixth man of the year. Wallace, who do you have? Again, I had my balls take, which was Deuce McBride.

Yeah. That's what I have, by the way. But I think he's going to be... What's this like split take? Like, you've got to pick a guy. That's what we're doing. I'm saying, like, I have the ability to be interesting, but ultimately... Be you. Be interesting. Ultimately, I'm thinking Malik Monk.

I think, like, he's just such a proven... He's, like, this era's Jamal Crawford in the sense that no matter where he's at, what the context is, like, he's going to get buckets, period. And that's what this award always comes down to. It's, like, non-starter who's always scoring, and that's Malik Monk. And so I think he's going to win the award again. I think he's going to, like, far outpaced Deuce McBride in terms of output. So, like, I don't even think it's close.

I don't even think the New York overhype factor can even help Deuce McBride here. What if I said to you, this was the one year we're not just going to give it to the reserve that scores the most points? I would say, good luck. You're right. But I want to believe in a future where that's true. I want vengeance for, like, the Andre Iguidala non-vote. I did my part. officially and unofficially,

Andre Aguadala should have been six-man of the year. It's ridiculous that he never was. If we as a society have evolved to the point and we haven't, but what if we did that we could get Alex Caruso six-man of the year? If you're a first-team, all-N-Ba defender who's shooting 40% on threes, as he did last year, we'll see.

For a contender, I just don't see how you're not one of the best reserves in basketball. Yeah, so I think Caruso is the kind of NBA player who could buck the normal train. What do you mean by that? I think he's got a lot of admirers amongst our media

cohort. Myself included, by the way, I've been driving a Caruso train for freaking four or five years now. Fellow bald guy? They have a strong union? I just think Caruso definitely is the kind of guy who could buck that trend, especially if he plays on a team that just outpaces even their own expectations, right? Which is like, you know, close to 60 wins. if they get in a high 60s somehow this year,

and he's that spark plug guy off the bench, he could definitely do it. Here's my concern with Caruso. Will he start too much now, especially if Hartenstein is hurt? We'll see. That would be that. I also think there's a chance that Dort,

like his shooting just falls off a cliff, probably supplants him in the starting lineup, probably more of a playoff thing than a regular season thing, but like, you know, Cruz is a more reliable option, so I could see that, but that's a good pick. I have Deuce McBride.

We've talked about this in the past. I just, I think they have six good players. the Knicks two. Some of whom might not be able to shoot now. And so I think McBride's going to play probably 30-ish minutes and he's going to be relied on to be one of their best scores.

Yeah. The pathway's there. Rookie of the year, I think we talked about this last show. Zach Eedy. You guys have Eiddy. Eadie. I have Shepard, support the stash.

Coach of the year, Rob. I actually think Joe Mazzula can get it. I don't see what the team is that's going to have the huge win-total jump other than Memphis. And that's not really a Taylor Jenkins. issue, although I think he's a solid coach. And so if you don't have the huge win jump,

usually it's almost more of a retroactive award. And I think there is a growing consensus around the work that Joe Mizzou did last year, obviously. And if they can get through this season in one piece, managing all of their various injury concerns with Porzingis out, with Al Horford's minutes, with Drew Holliday's minutes, all this stuff going on, and still be the number one seat in the East,

I think he's got a really strong case. My pick is Kenny Atkinson, Just because the calves, like, it's the only change that they will have made. Have you seen what he's doing with Evan Mobley? Which is to say, like, actually letting him do stuff. Oh, actually letting him be a basketball player? Yeah, letting him cook. I think we're in for a good time with Evan Mobley and the Cavs.

The Cavs, like, it's difficult, right? Because they made so many improvements when a lot of their guys went down. But a lot of their guys didn't play, like, close to 30 games. Like, each of their three best players missed, like, a right? 28 games last year. And so, you know, just the idea that those guys would play more and the team is going to improve. And that being the only change that happened this offseason is having your guys actually

play more and just changing the coach. I think Atkinson will get a lot of the credit if they do improve upon the team. So, yeah, that's my pick, Kenny Atkinson. Atkinson's a good one. You're right. Like, it's tailor made for him to win it. Because if they do better, it's because of him. Yeah.

Max Trues out for a couple of. weeks. Did you feel it? I was thinking about putting on a jersey. Just seeing if I could just sneak in. Like the fake clay Thompson. I have Spoh. Yeah. Eric Spolstra has never won coach of the year. And so much like Greg Popovich before, I'm going to predict and then vote for him every year. Because he deserves one. He's probably one of the best coaches of the past decade. I think he could make some magic happen. I think that he has some stuff to overexceed expectations that the expectations are playing. I can see them as like, the sixth seed and you'll see.

Maybe that's not enough wins. It typically goes to the best team, not the best coach, but I think he deserves recognition. But I think if they end up supplanting one of these other really good Eastern Conference teams, like the calves or the bucks or the magic,

like I think you would have to tip your cap to the work that Spoh was doing, as we often do. Yeah. All right. Next one, make or break teams. For someone who's engineered this bit, You have not head banged a single time.

I got to mean into it more, is what you're saying? I think you got to. I've been doing the Sabrina Ayanascoe, like, the face like, I'm so mad. That's the face you make when you go one for 19 in an elimination game. Or amid the variables. Yeah. All right. So the team's kind of out of crossroads.

Who wants to go first? Speaking of the Milwaukee Bucks. Yeah. First and foremost. Yeah. I think they got to be there. This quote from Janus popped recently. from an interview with Sam Amick.

If we don't win a championship, I might get traded. Yes, this is the job we live. This is the world we're living in. It's everybody. I don't know if that's true unless he wants it to be true. Why does he keep doing this?

Because he did this with the times, right? Before they traded for Dame and then you got the extension locked in. He's just a little too coy. And I don't think he's doing it intentionally. It just seems like a weird guy. He's not weird. Do you think he's a weird guy?

He talks about like his leadership. sex with his wife all the time. He talks about having like boners like very publicly. He's the maturity of like a five year old. He's great. I love the whole smoothie bit, but. I think Janice's leadership style is weird because I think it's in tension with somebody who knows that he's supposed to be playing a part but just isn't great at it.

Yeah. Right. And you know, like I've watched a little bit of the starting five. Like LeBron is so good at it that we all know it's fake. whereas Janice is like just not good at it at all he knows there's like certain things that he's supposed to say

and that he's supposed to project and he tries it but like when he's like there's no such thing is failure what's failure? Yeah he doesn't do the political theater yeah he just he's just not gifted at it

and him coming out and saying like I might get traded I think his recognition that like the core of this team is not a secure one yes and he's right like let's just say AOKC comes out and somehow

loses in the first round this year. Nobody's going to be like break up the thunder. Like it's not happening. Like they are who they are. Same with Boston at this point, especially after the championship. Some fluky thing could happen. Nobody's going to be like,

these guys have to be broken up finally. I know we did it for years, but we're not doing that. I think the bucks are not that. If this does not work this year, a lot of people are going to have questions to answer, the age of the team. And then the superstar,

is like, you know, he did re-sign with Milwaukee two times, but there was all kinds of buzz around him before those signings that he might be packing his bags to get out of there. And so there's definitely make a break for them. Well, Chris Middleton play? Not opening night, apparently. Oh, I missed that. Yeah, ruled out for opening night.

You know, maybe we'll see him sooner than later, but the rehab continues at pace. If this season doesn't go well from Milwaukee, you would have to think Middleton, Brooke, Dame, all those guys could not be long. for being in a Bucks uniform. Beyond that, you could see Doc getting fired after a season like this. You could see John Horst, who's engineered a lot of this being out one way or another.

And yeah, you could see Janus, whether by his, I imagine it would have to be by his choice, by his call. Moving on, if he wanted to do that. Let's play it out and see how they do, because ultimately, they still do have a dominant starting five. I really like the fit of some of the guys that they brought in. I think Gary Trent, Jr. makes a lot of sense there. But they're dicey. They're really shallow. You could absolutely see them having a worst-case scenario season and a lot of people losing their jobs

or losing their spot on the team because of it. What do we think would lead to a mass change? Would it be not getting out of the second round? Because I think we probably all agree that they will probably be decent enough in the regular season to have maybe top four, top six seed, right? I think if they get bounced in the first round, yes. But if they make it to the second round,

that seems reasonable considering the way the east is stacked, but I don't know what's reasonable for Milwaukee. But there's reasonable and what's reasonable to Janus. And frankly, what's reasonable when you have a player like Janus? I think it's going to matter how it looks. Yep. If it doesn't look dysfunctional and they lose on the second round and it's like, you know, a team is just playing better than they play,

but they were competitive and all of that, I think it'll be fine. But if they look like none of these pieces make sense together, the way that they did at times last year, then it's going to be like, We gave this two years and at no point did how we conceived of this come to fruition. So we got to do something else. That's what I think is going to be the key.

How does it look? Or if they look like they can't stay healthy. I think that would be another thing to push them over the edge. Any other teams to mention here? The sons. Yeah, the sons. You know, their new ownership came in, spent a bunch of money, talked about how money is no object and we don't care and all of that stuff.

But the bottom line is money matters. It even eventually mattered to Steve Balmer, who's Richard and every owner in the NBA combined. And so the idea that this dude's going to come in and be fine with spending money for a product that consistently underachieves, like that's going to come into question. And then, of course, as everybody knows,

they have the most mercurial superstar in the league. This guy is very fickle about how he feels about his situation at any given time. And so, like, this idea that you can count on KD being happy no matter what the results are, okay? Like, we're talking about coming off of, you know, championships. He was coming off a back-to-back championships in Golden State. And I was like, I'm not feeling it. In Brooklyn, a situation that he basically single-handedly orchestrated in terms of superstar teammates and a coach and an organization that just countdowns him at every second.

I was like, yeah, I'm done being here. I don't want to mess with this no more. So the idea that he's with the Sons and he's going to be like, I'm just at home in Phoenix right now. Like, there's no reason to believe that. So I think the Sons are definitely a make-a-break candidate. $235 million roster, not including the tax. That's this year.

That's this year. You know what next year is? How bad. $253 million. And so the Celtics, who we've talked about, they're so expensive that they needed to literally break, up the team or sell the team in addition to that, 278. Well, the good news is the sons might be Lehman Brothers.

They might have to just go away. Nobody looked too closely at the books over there. The good news is they don't have young players that are waiting to be paid. You know, there's no like extension waiting to burst. The money is on the table. And we're going to see if the money is good. I kind of think they're going to be a really good team this year. Yep.

They have the makings of it. On the other hand, Katie, also a free agent after next season. So notable for sure. That's an added wrinkle there. I also have the heat down here, if only just because all the Jimmy stuff is very messy. I also have the calves. I think we're all pretty high on them. But I think if we're like sticking to the make or break definition, if this doesn't work,

they're going to have to trade people. Sure. And so they will break at least parts off in order to form a different team. That makes sense. Anybody else? I think the Sixers are worthy of note, not because I don't think they're in danger of breaking anything up yet. A lot of it is still so new.

Are they just breaking the will of their families? Maybe. Were their tendons? Joel M. B is 30 years old. And if you're not contending every year that your MVP caliber guy is in his early 30s, it's kind of a failure in its own way. So there's a lot of pressure on them, even if they aren't necessarily a make or break candidate.

Here's my question just overall with some of these teams. Do we think help is coming for teams that need like an extra move? Because I was thinking about the Warriors in this regard, clearly kind of biting their time with some of these mid-tier options, body healed, etc. until they can land a superstar for Steph. It seems like they're very much in that market or at least want people to think

that they're in that market. I just don't know with the new CBA. It seems like things are going to get more restrictive as we go into the season because as we saw the Knicks played cap gymnastics pretty successfully in order to get towns. Now fewer roster spots. It's just like it seems more difficult.

And so I wonder if like the big help is coming at the deadline as teams tend to like talk themselves into at this point in the season. Maybe. I don't know. It's an interesting question. Yeah. Unless that big help is a Zach Levine.

There's that, too. Like, who's the guy? Yeah, that's what the problem is to me. It's like the guys that are actually available have been available. You see it coming. Yeah. And even with towns where it was like, you know, I think it was surprising that the NICs are the ones who ultimately pull the trigger. But I'm not surprised Minnesota traded him.

No. He was always going to be the first person out of town whenever they felt like, yeah, we can move on from this iteration of the roster. And so nobody's coming out of left field with some, I don't even know the contours of a trade for like a remarkable player. It's just not going to happen. Kauai, if he's healthy. He plays five games.

Get the fuck out. Zach Kram said, okay, see, he should try to do it. They got an up-depth. If they were like, look, man, we only need you for 15 games in the playoffs. Jesus, cry. That's some mercenary shit that honestly would be like, inspired bosser is so not the way they don't operate like I'll tell you what

I'd rather the pick that they're getting this year oh yeah that's that's bleak sorry Kwa who's for some reason in a pretty prominent NBA commercial for this season wasn't the best odds on you is a player in the NBA that's for sure that's for sure all right number three

breakthroughs that's that's better That's better. You're leaning in to the appropriate degree. So we're talking about players now on the verge of a breakthrough, and we're going to segment this into four separate tiers. Thanks to our friend Rob for bringing this to the table.

You're welcome. So our scale is dude, guy, player, thing. And that's from best to least best. Yes. A dude is, I mean, you're that dude. You're that dude. You're a guy. It's pretty good.

You're a guy. I think my threshold is like dude is all NBA kind of caliber Yes Guy is all-star Maybe ranging down into like Really good playoff role player Really good starter

Guy you can depend on in huge moments I think all that qualifies A player A decent guy in a rotation Who's gonna be able to stop up minutes Who's worthy of note on the radar And a thing is like we're just starting to kind of blip You know? Oh isn't that interesting

that this prospect got minutes for the first time. That's kind of what I'm thinking of. As we're talking about things, do you want to quickly pour one out for your guy? What was it? Marvin Levy? Malify Leones. Yeah. It's tough.

But look, I'm hoping this is ultimately an en route to get him to the OKC Blue. Oh, I was about to say, Ken, do we even, what happened to him? I missed this bit of news somehow. He got cut. Oh, tough. I potted about him and he immediately got cut. It's a tough one. Arrevoir.

Our friend. You know? Our Dutch brother. Really? Aren't our true friends the guys we named along the way? That's true. That's a good point. Do we start with dudes?

I think you start with dudes. So it's like a guy who could become a dude, right? Yeah. So I looked at it a little differently. Like, dude, I thought was like top 10, 15 players. That's all in the A. Yeah, but I'm talking about like if you're doing a player ranking. Like for instance, Jalen Williams, good test case.

I have him as a guy, not a dude. Oh, I have him as dude. But he could become a dude. He's already a guy. But I think he's going to be an all-star, not all-MBA. So maybe that is the difference. This is the distinction. I think we're on the same page. Okay.

Okay. But you guys have him as a dude? Dude. Big major dude potential. I thought about him as a guy who could become a dude. Right. For sure. I think that's kind of the air he's in right now.

Yeah, because OKC has one guy who can be like their ball-dominant show-stopping creator. And that's Shay. He's like, obviously MVP can't. Like, Shay's, like we already know all the superlatives. But they need somebody else to take those duties. Like they're not trying to be a Dallas Mavericks type of team or, there I say it, Atlanta Hawks type of team where we have the one guy who does every single thing on offense and everything revolves around and everybody sort of orbiting around it.

They want to be more dynamic than that. And the way, the fastest way to that, besides Chet getting some more on-ball stuff, which I think he's deserving of, it's got to be. Jaylon Williams, who turns into that quintessential secondary guy, the, you know, Jalen Brown to SGA's Jason Tatum, right? That's what they're counting on, I think, when you see the construction of the team. That's another reason why they was like, say, Ina, Josh Kitty, you ain't that guy. You're not even close to that guy.

There's 23 usage percentage points that have to be redistributed. Jaylon Williams will get close. He'll get a lot of them. And I think the fact that he plays at his own page. in a way that's very hard to speed up and very hard to take him out of it makes me think he's really qualified to continue to do that at higher dosage

and higher usage. He's also a guy who you're starting to hear the rumblings around the league among other young players that are like, I'm watching J-dub tape. I'm trying to see what that guy does because I want to incorporate those elements into my game.

And to me that suggests like he's a guy who, I mean, has already taken a certain leap but really could take another one. Yeah. 54, 43, 83, 81 efficiency last year. It sounds like... Pretty fucking good.

It's unreal. Yeah. Other dude I have in the mix here, Zion Williamson. Maybe already a dude. Yeah, to me, he's already a dude. A dude-do-place? Yeah, you got to prove your do-do place. So that stretch of possessions before he went down in the playing game, he was just dominant. He was playing on the floor.

Exactly. Like, to me, he's already shown that he's that guy when he raises his competitive level and he's actually on the court. Like, to me, Zion isn't, like, questionable dude material. To me, who's, like, who I'm like, is he a dude? Is he a dude? Like, oh, dude territory for Franz? But doesn't he have to be, though? I haven't meant to honorable mention for the guys.

For the guys. No, he's already a guy. Come on. I don't know if he's a guy. They've paid the hell out of him. Yeah. If he's not a guy at this point, like, what? I think he's a guy.

I think it may be, to your point, kind of on the borderline in to guide him. We need something in between guy and player. Well, that's for next time. Like a maybe guy? I just think if you give him, if you give him his absolute max in years and money. Sure. And you're already, obviously, we know Palos, the other guy. Like, by default, that's what he is.

If you take this core of this team seriously, which I think Orlando is signal that, like, we got our core. Sure. Right. They pay everyone, though. Like, they, like, some of that's the model. They've re-signed a lot of their guys recently. You've had the, the Goga Patzzi's, the Mo Wagner's. Like, they want to keep these guys in-house.

And a lot of them have, like, team options on the back end of it. You would think because when it's time to make trades, those guys will be important to. But Franz is the kind of prospect you invest in. And among the players of this caliber, he gets a lot of run on the pick and roll. He has a lot of chances to create. I think the bump for him and Paolo both is going to be, can the magic offense hit a higher level with them in the lead because they have the opportunity

but Paolo is trying to prove he's a dude and I think Franz is trying to really cement himself as a guy because Franz has the ball a lot but their offense is very Franz centric and I think you know a lot of that is because of the roster construction they don't really have guards

who can soak up these you know initiation duties right their guards are guys like Jalen Suggs who's like, look, you're a point guard in name only. Like, realistically, you run around and, you know, basically try to get scraps on offense and you guard the hell out of the other teams lead ball handler. And so, you know, you got the money, you're going to get the opportunities. You got to show and prove. Yeah. Franz.

0 for 7 from 3 in preseason. The shooting has to come around. You don't love it. It has to come around. If you're going to hit that level, it has to come around. But another guy to dude candidate, Tyrese Maxie. Oh, sure. I just think the number of players who shoot like he does

and have the burst that he has, it's incredibly short list. And if you have those two things, how scalable your offense is just off the charts. Like, you could always do more if you can do those two things. And you fit that around a dude like Joelle Embed, who defenses are like glued into? Right, and rightly so.

It's crazy. I compared him to an electric car. one of the blurbs that we did. What's the pitch? All go, no torque. He's like, he can round a corner though. Yeah, well, still can elect your car, I guess. You ever turn on one of those bad boys?

I'm a Texan. I'm just gas guzzling. Okay, diesel. But I think he's notable in the way that he already is one of the best pick and roll players in the league. He literally just won most improved player. And I think he still could make another huge leap this season. So you're saying guy who could be a dude? Yes.

Okay. I'm for that. He's firmly in my dude category. Yeah. He's already a dude, too. Yeah. Facts. Any other dudes? I had Zion, who by the way, has,

he played 21 minutes in preseason, and he took 21 shots. So that's my belief. I was looking at him more as like MVP. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, we'll see about the center stuff, but I think if he plays enough games, like, and he will put up a lot of points in small ball.

So that's why I have, I mean, I had Wembe, too, but like, I guess he's already a dude. He might already be a dude. Yeah. So those are my dudes. For guys, I had Jalen Williams. as Shaden Sharp? Wow.

You think Shaden Sharp can be a guy. Well, he's already a player. Is he? Yeah, for sure. I think he's closer to a thing than a player. You don't think he... A thing. No, I think Shaden Sharp at this point in his careers.

He's a rotation player. He is ephemeral. He has an idea of a concept of a basis of a plan. He, like, levitates. You know, so that makes sense. He certainly does. Shadden Sharp played on a real team where he was asked to, define his game, I think he could find it.

But on Portland, they're asking him to be like, you know, franchise player kind of guy. Yeah. And so I ain't seen that. But like in terms of, is he a player? Like, I think it's obvious he has, like, tools to where, like, if he's so toolsy, like, if he was asked to work around, like, great players already, I think he'd be well positioned to do that.

It's just, that's not what's being asked to him. And so that's where I think the confusion, um, comes in, but like, yeah, I'm not in guy mode with him. I think what makes me nervous about him is he has the air of a player who might get lots of minutes eventually and put up a lot of points, but would end up with like two rebounds at game and not be a playmaker. And being like maybe okay defender in the grand scheme of things. And that player type does not appeal to me very much. He's also currently out with the same injury he had as a rookie, which is a laboral tear.

So he's currently not available. So this is a bit of a stretch. but I do think things are working so that he would be the guy to pop there in Portland but we'll see I mean this could ultimately just default to Anthony Simons being the only guy there maybe like whereas Scoot neither him or Sharp

really pop but I think Sharp is ready I think there's more playmaking there I think they can run them off screens a little bit and also like he's so athletic and toolsy defensively like there's sometimes he just kind of falls backward into plays because he could hang so high in the air like I just constantly think about him with the block in the corner on a three where it just seemed like he was literally put his Mario Cape on and did that.

And so I think there's guy potential there. I have a candidate who is of a piece with Shaden Sharp, and that's Brandon Miller. I think Brandon Miller's a player already. Already. Really good season. I think he could be a guy. And I think it's in part, he's kind of already an NBA player defensively. Like, he's really guarding the hell out of people.

He's really trying hard. Yeah, there's some things you have to pick up as a young player in the league. But if you already have that foundation, and now you're playing with a real point guard for the first time in your career, all due respect to a silly meat. chitch. I just think that the lid is going to be lifted off his efficiency and I don't want to overreact to preseason shooting numbers, but he's shooting the hell out of the ball from through, just nailing everything. That translated so quickly and easily. Completely. I think he had among the most three-pointers made as a rookie, I think he was like top five of all time. Yeah.

So yes, the shooting is there. He just needs to get a little bit better in isolation and I wonder having Mello there to bail him out will help. But true to someone who is, as Paul George, you can see the kind of Paul George arc of coming in and having to kind of get your legs as more of an offball force to begin with and then slowly rounding into being more of an on ball element. And I think he has that in him. Yeah, just elite feel in terms of especially somebody his age, to have that great a feel, have all of these physical gifts and already be shooting it. You know, last year as a rookie, I think he proved like, all right, this isn't some bust or whatever. Like, he's clearly a player. And yeah, I had him, um,

transitioning in the guide mode. And my other two guys are guys that I've mentioned before because I'm just in love with their games. And that's Derek lively and Jalen Johnson. I think lively, again, young guys showed he's a player already starting in NBA finals games and like holding his own, even though at times he got exposed. But I think he's going to be ascending into, you know, guide mode and Jalen Johnson, I just think the world of.

And I wonder, you know, how many opportunities he's going to get to explore the outer reaches of his game. We mentioned what Mowgli's being allowed to do on the Atkinson. I wonder if Quinn Snyder is going to try to incorporate more like, all right, Jalen Johnson, you also too get to touch the ball and meet the, hey, ball, Johnson. You think they need to be introduced. Yeah. And so. Set up on a date. Yeah. Trey Young, like, get off of it every now and again. That's what I think is important. And like, I think just, you know, these are the kind of guys that get

people fired, but it also, they're the guys that make your career, right? Like, Jalen Johnson or Derek Lively, like, or Brandon, Brandon Miller, it's, like, sometimes GMs were around all their whole careers waiting for these guys to pan out, and they don't. But, like, there's a reason why people are so tantalized by those dudes. Completely. What is the Jalen Johnson's CV at right now? Like, it is through the roof your stock.

I mean, are you arguing it? No, I'm saying, like, you must be proud of. I feel great about it. Put a couple bucks in there, and all of a sudden, you're a goddamn millionaire. I've been out here trying to tell y'all about Jalen Johnson. I will give Rob credit the first mention probably on any podcast about Jalen Johnson. Very proud.

First week last year. Picked him up in fantasy as a result. Had a great year. You're welcome. Yeah, that's right. Anymore guys you guys have? See, I think I looked at this a little differently. I had Evan Mowgli too, but he's already a guy, it seems like.

Yeah. I think he's well above that. Especially now that he's on. Well, no, he's not a dude, so I think he's probably a guy. I think he's a guy. Now he's on the Atkinson diet. Should we do that? How long even weighed to bust that out?

Waz was saying that. I also have Keegan Murray. I think he's one who isn't a guy who could be a guy. We talked about it before. I think they need him to play defense. They need him to shoot 7 to 8 3s a game. Yeah. Classic young player situation where he's shown all of the discrete elements at various times

and never all of them at the same time. But if he can defend the way he did last year, shoot the way he did the year prior, continue to explore not just his open floor game, but in the half court some creation too, that's a really good player. Players now. But Trace Jackson Davis.

Hmm. I like it. Started four of the Warriors' six preseason games, including the last three. I think Golden State is increasingly, just based on my view of watching them and the quotes coming out of there, coming to terms with the fact that playing Draymond Green full-time at center is not a good idea for their immediate term. Like, that's a bad idea for trying to win this season. So playing Trace Jackson-Davis is a good idea at the five.

for long term, I think you want trace and pods on the floor as much as you can possibly get them. And so why would you not be investing in a player like this at this point in time? And he's almost the anti-Kuminga in a way because he's the way, the flow he plays with is such a Steve Kerr style. Totally. And they need bigs, they need size, they need that flow. I see a Trace Jackson day of season. The only problem, and I like Trace Jackson, I think you're right. He fits what they want to do.

He's a thumper, even though he's a little undersized. It's just, if he's playing center, Draman's playing the four, and then Kaminga's playing the three. Welcome to the Golden States roster, my friend. And then Mellon, who's a good three-point shooter, low volume, though, like Steph might have to take 50-3s a game,

just for this team to compete. What's old is new. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, my player was Jonathan Kaminga. Is he a player? I think he's a player. I think he's in the maybe guy territory now. Maybe guy.

Oh, okay. Again, they need him to be a guy. Yeah. But I think he's more of a plus. He thinks he's a guy. He thinks he's a dude. He thinks he's a dude. I think they need him to be a player, first and foremost.

You don't think he's that level? No, because he hasn't defined himself yet, Rob. Like, you're not a ball handler. Ish. Okay. Like, you can't, he has, he has his nice go-to stuff where he likes to. where he likes to get like 14 feet from the cup, create some space, you know, rise and fire.

Like, that's a cool little thing that he does, but that's not what a game is based off of for anybody who's calling themselves a dude or a guy. Like, it's not based on, oh, I create contested 14 footers for myself all the time. Like, that's not a thing. Still hasn't shown he can shoot it. Obviously, we know he's not an on-ball pick-and-roll type of dude.

So basically, he's. He's not a wing. I think he is a decent enough creator from like second side opportunities. If you want to give him the ball and say run our offense, you're going to go straight into the ditch. But if the ball moves and finds him, I think he creates advantages pretty well and milks the advantages he has pretty well. Fine. But wouldn't he become such a more valuable commodity if he just was killing people

on defense, crashing the boards, transitions. Garbage pale guy. Sorry, like, highly, you know. Are you reading Steve Kerr's text right now? We all agree. So that's what I'm saying. Like, he's in between types right

now. And, like, in between type is not a real rotation guy for a team that's actually trying to win. Sure. Right, like, if he's not going to embrace the qualities that would make him a consistent contributor to this team, where he's just like, no, I just need the space, you know, to F up all the time.

It's like, we're not there with you, Kamenga. Like, we can't have those minutes go to a guy who's exploring the outer reaches of what he can do. So that's why I'm like, is he even that right now? I think they will still give him the opportunity to explore those outer reaches just because there's so few warriors who can do anything resembling that. There's a lot of guys who can play their roles in very tight space. your buddy heels, for example, your Kyle Anderson's.

Like those players have a use, but I think when you need wild cards and you need juice, someone like Cominga can be helpful. But I take your point. Like, if he were a more clarified player, the Warriors would be a more clarified team. They would have a much better idea

of what they're trying to do. And it seems like they're still reaching for that as much as anybody. I have Julian Strother down here as a potential player. Really good preseason. You think he's already hit thing status? Oh, he's definitely a thing.

I mean, you guys talk about him. Like he's a fucking... Well, we talk about everybody. candidate. We're talking about lots of guys. That's a CP candidate. I think he's he could be a rotation player

for the Nuggets at a much needed spot. And thus, I think he's on the already a thing, could be a player. Yep. Yeah, people over there were excited about what he might could do last year. He just never got the minutes. Mike Malone was just like screw that. I'm not playing this kid.

Obviously, with the departure of even more veterans this off season, he's just going to be thrust into more minutes. And so, you know, hopefully he does become a player for them. They absolutely need one of these guys to hit in that way. I think the weirdness of some of the Russell Westbrook experience, too, will make it an easy hook on some nights to be like, we just need more shooting.

Like, we just need something a little different in the mix tonight. And Strother, as much as anybody, could be a beneficiary of that. Any other players? I think Cam Whitmore could be a player. I just don't know if he's going to get the opportunity to prove it. Like, we've talked many times. Houston is so clutter. They have so many viable prospects.

But if he was on a team or if the rockets are this kind of team that could give him even more consistent run, I think he could be a player. Pretty telling that he's the first rocket when I think the entire roster we're trying to figure out what we named him as a player. But we're not talking about green or shangoon as dude Zing does. They have a lot of guys who could be something. Yes. Things now. Things was the hardest one because we already kind of did this. Yeah, we've named a lot of guys.

I want to circle back on a guy I did name who hasn't really been on the radar. I think could be a thing, and that's Taylor Hendricks of the Utah Jazz. Justin and I have talked about him at length. It should surprise no one to know. I just think Utah is in desperate need of some of their guys. Sorry, some of their people on their roster to become things. Yeah, I'm so confused. Yeah.

You know, the terminology is a little loopy here. But I think he's going to get real minutes. It seems starting at the four. They need someone who has the kind of quick twitch, defensive instincts and ability that he does. And ultimately, I think your read on Taylor Hendricks comes down to, do you think he can actually shoot? And I do.

And because of that, I think he can be a thing. Saw him in a preseason game the other day, and I was startled by how big he is, but how proportional he is. He looks like a wing on the court. Yeah. But if you see him up close, he's a big. And I always love those guys.

You sound like a baseball scout right now. Like one of Billy Beans, the old school guys. He's got a hot girlfriend. I have no clowny down here, a guy that I targeted a thing I targeted last year at the end of last year. Now he's actually playing games. I think he'll get a good run as being that sort of like switchable, toolsy defensive guy. We'll see what he could be on offense, but I think the defense is going to hit here. I also have, and this is a borderline candidate, again, Jordan Hawkins, who's been playing pretty well for the Pelicans.

Can he get some minutes because he can hit every shot he takes, pretty much? I feel like he could be, if there is some kind of Brandon Ingram trade in the offing at some point, he feels like a guy who could step in on the back end of the rotation if a couple of guys end up getting moved in a deal like that in fine minutes, or maybe he's attached in some way to make that a three-team trade, to get some sweeteners, to make everything makes sense. But wherever he goes, I want to see him get a chance to cook because the limited doses we've gotten of Jordan Hawkins have been really promising. Yep. My thing is Luca Garza. Hell, yeah.

Yeah, my boy, shout to my boy, John Krasinski, who just did a feature on Luca Garza. And, you know, what I thought was great about it, it just, again, exposes you to the different NBA lives that there are where this guy, you know, drafted on the fringes, dominant college player. There were no rotation minutes for him. Whenever they bumped them back to the G league, he smoked everybody. It's just like, this dude is averaging 32 points in the G league. doesn't belong here, but couldn't scratch the, you know, couldn't scratch the Timberwolves' crowded front court rotational minutes, but a night of two ago, he stepped in and started against Yolkich and drop 30.

Yep. Right? And what I like about him is one, obviously, he's a high motor guy, but he's a skilled big. He's got some floor game for sure. Yes. And he's not going to be asked to physically overwhelm and beat people. They have those kinds of players on the. already. He's going to come in and just fill in blanks when he's actually asked to do that. I think he's capable of doing this. He's an older dude, which I tend to like to, just in the sense that like, yo, they're going to go out asking to execute something and it won't be above his, you know, his mental faculties in terms of understanding what's going on out there. And so, yeah, I think he might be a thing this year. Are you into older guys or? I'm a step right by that one.

I don't want to get trapped into age difference discourse. That seems like a really bad place to be. I'm just, I'm shocked that you brought Luca Garza to the table. Rob's never been more proud of you. I've never been more proud. And I think in the name of guys who could become things or prospects who could become things, I do think there's more of an opportunity there for him now. We were talking about the wolves.

Like there's some gaps in terms of their front court rotation and they're going to have to shuffle some things around to make all the pieces fit. Why wouldn't he get a chance at some point this season? All right, last one on the list. We have parody. Have you ever heard of Pig Destroyer? You've been really hot. This riff just kind of reminds me of pig destroyer. Pig Destroyer.

Shout out to all the group chat fans who are Pig Destroyer fans. I think that's a small Venn diagram, but I bet there's somebody in there. I never asked you, did you ever have a metal face? No, I have not. But my brother is a genuine metal head. It comes by it honestly. He's in deep. Was?

You? No, I can't say that I have never had a metal phase. Not even like a rap rock? No. I mean, I enjoyed Lincoln Park. I kind of enjoyed Limbiscuit to be honest. You know, as cringe as that sounds, I enjoyed these guys when they, that they run. Look, I'm not even ashamed to say that I've enjoyed Kid Rock before.

I think you should be ashamed. Especially these days, yeah. But yeah, no, heavy men. metal, heavy metal death stuff? No, I've never really been into that. Maybe this is your entry point. Yeah. Maybe dying fetus. I think they could be for you. Appreciate you guys. Dying fetus. Let me go over that. Just do a quick, Google.

Who do you guys have for finals picks? I went chalky. But I think this is an era of the NBA we're repeating. It's going to be genuinely hard, if not kind of impossible. I just think the Celtics will still get to the finals. And I think when they get there, they're going to lose

to the thunder. I went Mavs versus Celtics in the finals. This kind of reminds me of the 2016 season, where the defending chairs are going to roll through everybody. Again, they're going to get to the finals, and they're going to have a rematch. And I think the MAMS will be just a year smarter and hungrier

about taking this team down. And I think even Luca with the LeBron parallels, Which, funny for me, I was thinking about this. Luke is now my third next LeBron. First, I had Janice. Yeah. Okay. And I had Yokic.

Huh. And now my next LeBron is Luca, honestly. I just really do think that, like, the way they got so pants in that finals, like, they just looked. Celtics made them look bad, man. Like, they just dominated them in a way that a lot of it was execution, lack of folks. It's just not taking it as seriously as the Celtics that I think this year will be much different It's going to be a series that comes down to the world I don't think they're going to beat up the Celtics like that's ridiculous But I can see it going seven and yeah man the Mavs because they will have the best player in that series and it's actually going to matter this time

The best player playing his best because Luca again didn't play his best in the finals last year I think just a really close NBA finals, the Mabs barely pull it out. I think the Mavs are better, like if that series does happen again, the Mavs as they're constructed now, are better suited for it. And some of it is, as you mentioned, like young players going through that kind of experience for the first time. Not just Derek lively, but like P.J. Washington and Daniel Gafford and even Lucas played in some really high-level games, but not quite like that in the NBA. Not a big finals level. Very different thing.

Now you're a little more ready for that. now whatever Clay gives you or doesn't give you defensively, like that's a threat. You have to guard on the weak side in a different way than anybody they had in that spot last year. I think things open up for them

a little bit against Boston. Like, it's still a really tall task to get past even the first line of defense that the Celtics put up. But I think the mads are better suited to do it now. Also, there's something too that I think in the modern era.

It's like, there's something to actually reaching a mountain top on the Celtics side where it's just like, ah, we don't win this finals. Like, our careers aren't being questioned anymore. The very logic of

our team's existence isn't being questioned anymore. It's like, ah, relax. I can put my feet up. Everybody's gotten paid. Everybody's got their ring. Like, I'm good. Yeah. Play Peyton Pritchard. I cannot say that fucking name. Play Peyton Pritchard.

Yeah. More than usual. Sure. No? I have neither of those teams, unfortunately. Whoa. I have the Thunder over the Knickerbockers. Wow. And I have to I'm sticking with this pick because it's going to be in print, if not already on the Ringer website, but soon this week.

My confidence has been shaken. Very much of late. By what? The fact that precious Sachua is out, the fact that they couldn't even keep Landry's shamit healthy, and they had to get rid of him because of the money that he would have been owed and they just can't pay that because they're right up against the second apron. Also because McHill Bridges, as we've referred to a few times, 0 for 10 from three in a preseason game the other day. The shot looks, janky is all hell. I say this as someone who myself have a bit of a trebue shay jumper.

I feel very qualified to comment on this. It's not great. In terms of your release time, in terms of the consistency of that shot, Mikil Bridges has been a really good shooter for a long time. Yeah. I know that there are always guys who, if they just don't attend to it,

you can develop these little quirks in terms of your motion. This feels and looks like something that was more deliberate than that, not just like a hitch that developed, but a hitch that was purposeful trying to fix something, and it didn't fix it, whatever it was. Yeah, those, I saw those clips running around Twitter. The only thing I'll say about...

Did you see the clip of Anthony Edwards commenting on McKeel Pritch's shooting free throws and be like, that guy changed his shot? Yeah. Yeah, I did not see that. That's not great. The only thing I think is the saving grace is that he's not going to be asked to create three-point shots, which I think a couple of those are like off the dribble. But he has to hit them.

He does have to hit them at some consideration. I just think as long as he can make a decent amount of standstill threes. Not when he takes a dribble to the side and pulls back up or, God forbid, it's like running a pick and roll and it's like, y'all I'm just going to pull up off the drip. No, I don't think he should be doing any of that. If he makes a decent amount of standstill threes, completely left in the corner three or completely left by yourself, time to shoot, time to gather, threes, it'll be fine. But anything more than that? No. This is when it helps to have the support of your bros, though.

It's true, right? It might be Daddy A time sooner than we think. Is it? Let me tell you, Daddy A, don't like that. I just want to leave. Oh, God. Good Lord. But I want to know what is your case for the Knicks

over the Celtics triumphing over the Celtics? It's the same one I have been making. It's just like, I don't know if Horsincus is going to be healthy. And if anything, I think the odds are that he's not going to be. And if the door is open, I think the Knicks are set up. in order to win a series. But if they themselves can't get to that point, then it gets nicer,

then I think the Celtics are the much more likely scenario. And I think that's a bummer about all of these playoff prognostications. It's like the injury factor has just been so prominent or just felt that way. More recently, where, like, you know, even like somebody like the Cavs at the end of the playoffs last year, like they had nobody playing, you know? That's not to mention the Knicks, same thing, right?

Right. And so I don't know. I think if all things, if everybody's healthy, I do believe the NICs present the biggest problem for the Celtics. I just think the Celtics are just, you know, because they're deeper, they can withstand more problems to their roster than everybody else. So I got to give them the edge there. And one way to look at it is depth. And you're right. If you miss a guy from your rotation, obviously if you have a good reserve who can plug in, that's helpful. if you have that top line versatility, I think that's really important. Because if you're losing key players, you just need guys who can all of a sudden shift their roles dramatically and everything still works somehow. So I think the Celtics are going on.

So like the Celtics, right? I keep thinking about daddy. Let's just say. No one else is trying to. Drew Holiday or Derek White. Or one of those guys goes down. I feel like they're still going to be pretty well positioned to do what they do.

if Bridges or OG go, like it's over. Yeah. Like, it's not happening, right? And we're talking about the fourth, fifth best players on themselves. They could lose them and still cook people. Where's the Knicks, man, if they lose their fourth and fifth best guy, it's completely different. Celtics are, are and should be the odds on favorites. I just think, I'm hoping that this is a little bit of an early season scare where it's like,

oh, this is bad right now as we're making these picks, but as the season. season goes along if that starting five is as bulletproof as we think on offense. Like, I think they could be pretty damn good. And so Thunder, I mean, we've talked about a bunch. I think they're going to be very much in the mix. Western Conference finals at the very least, I think is the reasonable expectation. Yeah, I think so. Okay. Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz sitting and staring at us this entire podcast in the couch in front of us. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. And if you are around on your couch watching NBA basketball on Wednesday, we will be recording live

after the first game, first national TV game. So check in with us. We'll send out a link and whatnot. So follow Rob on Twitter for that. Oh, thank you. Until then, we'll talk to you later. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C.

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