The Ringer NBA Show - The Warriors Are Down Bad, the Rockets Are Good (?), and the Zach LaVine Derby Is On | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 19, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos join to discuss the Warriors' sixth straight loss, which occurred against the Thunder, and dispiriting performances from Steph’s supporting cast at the start of this season. They also explore some potential trade options (3:00). Then, they talk about the surprising start to the Rockets' season, the impressive development from their young star Alperen Sengun, and the structure Ime Udoka has installed within the organization (23:07). Later, they examine the Zach LaVine sweepstakes and consider the most realistic destinations and trade packages (37:19). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Jack Sanders Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if everyone said they heard your trailer a hundred times? You'd probably make a new one. I'm Justin Sales, the host of The Wedding Scammer, the ringer's first ever true crime pod. We've been hunting a con man for a few weeks now, and our hunt is coming to an end. Schemes, Heartbreak, How to Put On a Wire. We've covered all this and more, but there are still a few surprises left. Binge the Wedding Scammer wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to group chat.

I am Justin Barrier and joining me to talk about some MMA chokeholds and maybe some basketball. Rob Mahoney, big wise. Rob, the question I have for you is, have you ever been choked? Good Lord. Is that a loaded question? You didn't say no. You know, can't confirm nor deny that I've ever been choked or not. The idea that we have 50 shades of graying Rob's marriage is just absurd on the side.

Monday morning at that on the Lord's Day that we're doing this. Did not know what I was walking into today. Holy moly. Praise him. What about you? Maybe street fight got a little, got a little feisty. I mean, there might have been some belts involved. It might have been, you know, just collar or two.

You never know, you know. New York City, we're pretty, I don't know if you know, one of the most liberal cities in the world. We get pretty, we get pretty out there, you know. And just so for the folks that don't know at home, I became single at the peak of Tinder in 2014. What a time to be alive, folks. Have you actually been in a fight fight, though?

Yes, yes. Like brawls. I don't think I've ever been in a straight-up one-on-one fight. Only like we're at a club, at a bar, at a whatever. Somebody gets into it with somebody. and then, you know, inevitably, all of us have to be involved. Rob, have you ever been in a fight? Absolutely not.

No. Yeah. I've only gotten punched in the face once in sixth grade. I think I've told this story before. Tim Barlow. I just kind of like mess with the wrong guy. Holy smoke. Oh, well, I don't know if he's listening to the Ringer NBA show group chat today.

But if he is, shouts to you because you won and I lost. But only once. Only the once, yes. Is it surprising to you? I mean, you're Justin Barrier, the man with the most punchable face. I just would have assumed you'd at least get like, you'd have some repeat customers, is what I'm saying. I would say I've gotten to a lot of passive-aggressive, like, tiffs,

but no actual punches thrown. That makes sense. Well, I mean, we could change that here. But otherwise, on the docket today, we're going to enter the Zach Levine Derby. We're going to get into the Houston Rockets, but of course we have to start with the Golden State Warriors, who, as of this recording, have now.

lost six in a row. They're now 10th in the West. Rob, you're higher I think on the Warriors going into the season than the rest of us. Has your confidence wavered over this losing streak? Of course. Of course. They've looked terrible. And yeah, they've lost six straight. Hard for

the confidence not to waver when you're losing six straight. Although, to our theme for today, apparently, I guess they did win the brawl technically, right? Like, Draymond finished that. Didn't he? Like, is that a win? Well, lost the war. I guess if you want to say the suspension is also hurting them in the standings, but yeah.

I would say so. But yeah, I think in particular what we've seen out of Clay Thompson and Andrew Wiggins has been pretty dispiriting over the course of the season. Case in point the fact that the Warriors got the best game they got out of Wiggins all season against the Thunder on Saturday night and one of Clay's better games too. And it still didn't feel like enough. And it still ultimately wasn't enough to get them the win. So it's just been a weird season for them where, you know, the bench feels much improved than on some nights is,

but also on some possessions is just like moving the ball around to accomplish very little. And zooming all the way out, this just feels like a roster that is still way too dependent on Steph Curry to pull games out at every opportunity. And he's good enough that he's going to do that on a lot of occasions. But, man, the rest of the supporting cast, in particular, the rest of the starters, just have to be better. Yeah, if you're Warriors fans, this kind of has to feel like Groundhogs Day, right? Where it's so step-dependent. And whenever he's not being magical and just, you know, all-time Hall of Fame sublime, you're relying on dudes who are just, if not inconsistent, outright bad on offense.

And, you know, the person that I look squarely at, to be honest, is Andrew Wiggins. 2022 finals, this guy was legitimately the second best player on the floor. At times, he was outplaying Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown. You know, two guys who everybody around the league sees as tier one wing players. And in the biggest stage of his career, Andrew Wiggins was out playing these dudes. He earned a nice contract. And it's kind of been terrible ever since he left the team for those. personal reasons, which still haven't been uncovered, by the way.

We still don't know why he did that. But it's been bad ever since. And I think to me that's the biggest problem is that Wiggins, it's not that he's not playing up to his finals level. He's just been not good. He's been below starter level wing in his production. And they count on him to be much better than that. And so that's tough.

Of course, Steph missing games doesn't help. But yeah, Clay, speaking of contract, here's, he's not looking good. I think, you know, it's just conspired to make this thing look bad. Yeah, so Wiggins had 31 last night in the second game against Oklahoma City. Before that game going into it, he had the worst true shooting percentage of any player in the league with at least 100 attempts. It's according to NBA University. Chris Paul, believe it or not, number three on that list.

So that's probably only compounding issues. I think those two things you're talking about, Clay and Wiggin. are connected to you because I do think Wiggins was sort of assumed to take over more of the responsibilities from Clay. There was supposed to be something of a succession where Wiggins was going to be the second or third most important guy in this team to maybe take some of the burden off of Clay so that you're not so reliant on Clay when he's 33 years old and struggling. And so Clay is not doing well. Wiggins obviously not doing well. And so you're looking around, you're really the John Travolta meme, Rob, where it's like, who is here to help Steph Curry?

or he like, Cominga on some nights, but even he was awful last night. That's the thing is the people who are supposed to be there to help to spell Clay and Steph and even Wiggins on the nights where clearly he isn't going to have it. You have to invite those players. You have to develop those players. And the drop-offs from Clay and Wiggins are particularly brutal

because the warriors don't have anyone who's ready to expand their game to compensate for that. And that is a failure of development, right? Jonathan Cumanga should be ready for that moment. Moses Moody should be ready for that moment. And I think some of it is on the individual players. Some of it is on the culture of what those guys have been allowed to do in the positions they've been put in, not just this season, but over time.

Like how we are at this stage of Jonathan Cumminga's career and he's not ready to accept some kind of baton, I don't know how to look at that except to say that it's a failure to this stage. It's not to say that things can't change. His career could take a totally different course from here. But right now, the Warriors need him to be ready. and they have not put him in a position to be ready. I wonder sometimes about the young guys in their development,

a guy like commingo who had all of this pedigree coming into the draft, and a guy who I still think has plenty of tools to be a worthwhile NBA player. Absolutely. But what if his self-conception doesn't match with what his ultimate destiny needs to be in the NBA, which is an elevated role player, if not, you know, a guy? guy who just soaks up possession after possession, some wing that just creates on his, I don't think he's that kind of guy. I don't think he's destined to be that.

But what if that's who he imagines himself to be? And so how do you develop somebody who doesn't want to be developed in the way that you envision? I don't know. That's what these people pay millions of dollars to do, right? Is to figure those things out. But the Wiggins piece is it's dispiriting because he's sort of. had this reputation in Minnesota.

Let's just say he wasn't considered a self-starter, highly motivated. Morose. I was going to say Waz's characterization was kind, but Marose might be too unkind. He just wasn't considered this guy who was this ferocious appetite for work and, you know, discipline and professionalism. He comes to Golden State. He's in the first winning environment of his career. I think people like my man, John Krasinski will point out,

yo, you know how much they asked this guy to rebound in Minnesota? And then he became fucking Dennis Rodman for the Warriors and one of the best perimeter defenders of that season. Like, these are things that he just never did his old career. We watched him do it for a three, four-month stretch. And now he's back to, you know, St. Paul Wiggins. It's tough. And you wonder if after having gotten his deal,

he's kind of just like, yeah, I'm good, got a deal, got a championship. It is what it is. It's starting to feel a lot more like the run into the finals and into the Warriors championship where he was so good. Right, that was not the turning point. That was the exception to the rule because I agree. Like, God, the Timberwolves, players, coaches, staff, they tried everything to get Wiggins revved up to make him more invested on every possession, every play basis.

And I wouldn't say he's been at that low level of energy and engagement for the Warriors, but he's not the rebounder he was. He's not the defender he was. And that's while he hasn't been making shots Saturday excluded. You can't have all of those things going wrong at once. One rebound last night in the midst of the 31 points, which is pretty remarkable. He's six foot nine, extremely athletic. There's no, it's just no way that should be happening ever.

Yeah. The two timeline thing to bring that back up again, I think is interesting because I was someone who thought that they should have been full bore in the Drew Holiday sweepstakes. If only to keep going all in on the Steph Curry just win now sort of timeline, I think there were credible arguments to the counter. And I think they relied on the fact that Kaminga or Moody or some of the other guys could take a leap to be credible rotation players around. there and then you would have more of a long way tracked in order to give Steph a more of a window. But I don't know. It just seems like the NBA is becoming more and more about taking advantage of the now. And I'm starting to become one of these people that's wondering like, why isn't the war, why aren't the warriors going all in on the now for Steph? Rob, is this a case where like maybe Steph's kindness is like actually working against him? Because any other superstar in this position might be beckoning for them to trade a Cominga or a Moody, maybe even a Clay at this point,

in order to make them as best as they could be. Yeah, is that the vision of what going for this now looks like is trading guys like Cumminga and Moody? Yeah, I think you can ask that question. I think you could also wonder if Clay's time has run out here because on the one hand, he started particularly slow last year from three. So 13 games into the season last season, he was shooting 33.6% from 3. He's currently shooting 33%. He finished last season at 41. So Clay can always round back

into form there, but I do wonder if we have to start asking the question, like, are they better? I mean, we could talk about this later, getting in on the Zach Levine sweepstakes or someone else in order to solidify that next spot. Because if we're saying that Wiggins isn't that guy, and we're saying that Clay is streaky, he was streaky in the playoffs too. Like, do we have to start managing some of the

foundational pieces now? I think Clay at this point we could say it's a bigger problem than just being streaky. This is not just the jumper is falling or it's not. He can't even clear airspace to get the jumper up sometimes.

It's him trying to get up a difficult shot against the Thunder defense and crunch time at airballing a reload three. And anytime he dribbles the basketball nightmare scenario for his team. I just think

you have to accept that Clay is not the guy he was before that championship run and even on that championship run. Is that you Clay Thompson himself, Rob? Because if the reports about the contract negotiation are to be believed, this man thinks he's one of the best shooting guards in the league still. He's certainly not that. He's certainly not that. Sorry, man. And like, again, this is a guy who I think we all love playing and like love seeing at his peak, love seeing Cook. Clay Thompson is an incredible winner, an incredibly enjoyable player to watch succeed.

It brings no one any joy to say that he's not playing well, but he's not playing well. And I don't know that trading him yields the kinds of answers you're looking for, Justin, because what is the trade return for Clay Thompson? Like, who is the candidate out there that's like, oh, we are a version of Clay Thompson that isn't hitting his shots away from wherever it is we want to go? I think he might be an expiring contract or like a little bit more. than that at this point. Ouch.

Because he's going to want an extension too. So yeah, that complicates things as well. I don't know. I think we need to start talking about extreme situations here wise because I just don't know how they make a dramatic improvement. I think Draymond coming back will help. But they are super relying on staff on offense, super relying on Dreimann on defense.

And so this issue is probably going to be there regardless. Yeah. My one thing about Clay is that I'm somebody who, still thinks in a big spot he's going to make a shot. And I trust him to do so more so than a lot of people in the NBA to make just consecutive huge shots, right? To swing a game that, you know, Warriors are down four to in 15 seconds, they're up too, right? Because Clay Thompson just made two incredible three-pointers, right?

And so I'm not willing to give up the foreclose on the idea that he could be integral to a run. However, you know, the younger guys, Moody and even comminga, who I know, like, people like me, people like Bill, people like my man, Samus Fendiari, like, still want to hold on to the Cominga stock, like that a guy with his motor and his athletic profile could still be a piece. But, God damn, like, the way that you get proven players in your building is for unproven ones, you know, who have some veneer of potential. And so he fits that category. Sorry, if they want to get an important piece in here, Combinga's probably going to be the kind of guy that they have to give up on in order to do so. And I'm kind of at the point where I'm not against that, depending on who the guy is, of course.

I'm not against it either. And I think some of it for me comes down to more of a league-wide lens, or at least a Western Conference-wide lens, where when you think about where the Warriors are fitting into, like, what is their place in things? in the grander scheme of this conference. I think you're seeing a lot of the older guard Western conference teams, the Clippers, the Lakers, the Warriors,

drifting downward in the standings right now, having huge questions about how they're going to compensate, how they're going to continue to build their rosters, problems they need to address. And the teams on the rise right now, the Nuggets, the Thunder, the Wolves, the Mavs, the Rockets, these are younger teams. These are teams with ascending talent.

And so I think it's totally fair and deserved and warranted for the warriors at this stage to take a hard look at themselves, even though they're going to play better, they're going to get Draymond back, they're not always going to be, God, what are they now, like one and six at home, just mind-bogglingly bad at home right now, that you would think would change over time. But the larger questions still remain of, how do you continue to keep up with the rest of a conference that is rapidly improving? Yeah, we'll get to the rockets later,

but the difference in athleticism between the Rockets and the clippers in the game the other night is so stark and you started to see something similar happened with the Thunder, especially in overtime where She just completely took over that game and they probably were no answers for

Chet either. Like Chet just was terrorizing them. You can't have an answer for Chet Rob. When are you going to learn this? Come on. The answer does not exist apparently. But I mean, speaking of Chet, while we're on this little tangent, I've never seen a more effortless

turnaround game-saving three-pointer than the one he hurtled over the top of Andrew Wiggins from the sideline. Insane. Insane. My favorite part of that, of course, there's the shot difficulty. There's the exhilaration. He immediately starts yelling at

Warriors players. He crosses half court and is at his bench and he's still yelling at them. I was like, that's my boy. That is my boy. He's my number one boy. you got the slob wizard giving him the perfect pass from the sidelines. Everything is clicking that time. Well, I do kind of want to talk about Chris Paul because in a weird way, he's connected to the young guy conversation because he has kind of settled into this role as like the fostering parent of the younger generation.

In a weird way, he was brought in. It seems to almost galvanize some of the remaining second timeline sort of players where we've been talking about here. Otherwise, he's been a little shaky. The shot isn't there. Is there any hope left-wise, you think, for Chris Paul being maybe sort of an accelerant, at least to get this team back into the high play into even beyond that mix? Yeah, it's hard for me to say Chris Paul is why this thing is gone off the rails, right? I don't think he's been incredible by any stretch.

But at the same time, I still think what he does as far as table setting for those young guys and those second units is still very important, right? there's literally nobody else to do it, particularly what Jeremy Green is not playing for his various indiscretions, right? Or even injuries to start the year. So I'm still, I'm still a wait and see with Chris Paul. I still think he has something to give to this team in particular. But I understand why you, somebody might have trepidations because it hasn't been incredible. I mean, he's, he's been good. The bench has been good. Like, he's not making shots personally. but the galvanizing effect he has on those young guys

on the rest of the bench pieces, I think is really, really critical to keeping this team afloat. I'm more worried about what you're getting from Clay and what you're getting from Wiggins than what you're getting from a bench group that frankly, given its talent level, is really overachieving right now.

When the bench kind of runs a ground, it's mostly because, like, ultimately, no matter how much ball movement you have, how much positive momentum you have, swinging the ball to Dario Sarich can only go a couple of different ways. ways. And so they're doing the best with that.

And they're doing the best with some guys stepping up too. Like Gary Payton has been out as well. Brandon Pajemski steps in, gives them some really good minutes and it feels like a really good fit in their offense. I like what all of these guys who are coming into the game for the Warriors are doing. I just wish they had a better foundation to work off of based on the starting lineup's success. Do you guys remember, because I'm old enough to remember this, do you remember when

Dario Sarich was proof of Sam Hinkie's genius? y'all remember that because i do it's like a two-off job yeah maybe maybe the blame for chris paul is a bit misplaced but i almost wonder if if the young guys aren't coming around it's almost like firing the defensive coordinator when your defense isn't working like he is kind of the caretaker for the young guys at this point didn't deserve that it's tough yeah he definitely deserved it i'll say this but yeah i don't know like unless there's something stream happens, like, are the Warriors going to get back into the top tier of this title race? It seems tough. I mean, we're going to talk about the Zach Levine race, Derby, whatever

you want to call it later, but like, I do wonder if they have to start thinking about something like that. I'll say this, and we can end on this. If and when the Warriors make the playoffs, because I think they're still going to turn this around and make the playoffs. In a series, like, are you really scared of the Mavericks or I think the war, I think the wolves could overwhelm them physically, but like, you can't see the wolves team and be like, oh, they're so trustworthy in a playoff setting, particularly against a hardened veteran group like the Warriors. I'm not that worried, guys. Like, the Nuggets, when they get their full compliment of guys back, are going to be

very tough, but nobody else. I've watched the Lakers this year. I've watched the Clippers. I'm not overly impressed by what those teams have to offer. That's all I'll say about the Warriors and their prospects. I'm still pretty bullish on them. I think it's more a matter of not trusting in those teams so much, but teams like the Warriors,

not necessarily deserving the benefit of the doubt right now. I think Golden State, as much as any of these other teams, along with the Clippers, along with the Lakers, these teams have to prove it too. And we're seeing now why that's the case. Yeah. And we saw how far institutional knowledge in Steph Curry will get you last postseason.

Like they beat the Kings, but like second round, they couldn't get there. That's very sad for me that Steph is hitting a wall at the second round at this stage of his career because he's been incredible this season. And to not be able to get him back into the title, it's the same thing with LeBron. It just feels like why. Why is this happening? And ultimately, I think, falls a little bit on the front offices. But that's a good segue into the next conversation we want to have about the Rockets who,

surprisingly good still six and four, six in the west. the defense, Rob, fourth in the NBA in defense. Your Houston Rockets, is this just the EMEA effect? What is going on in Houston? Yeah, I think it's the EMA effect. I think it's having Fred Van Fleet and Dylan Brooks

playing big minutes as part of that starting group, just huge in terms of getting the rockets up to speed. And you see kind of incremental improvements across the board and their younger guys as a result of that, right? Like Jabari Smith Jr., taking on some big time assignment. guarding really threatening forwards in some of these games. Alper and Shangun,

I don't want to overstate the defensive improvement because his positioning still leaves a lot to be desired. But he's there, though. But he's there. His presence is being felt in a different way

and the effort is there. There's no question about that. I think just getting a young team to buy in and compete and know what they're doing has taken Houston to a much, much loftier place

in the defensive leaderboard. I can't say I'm banking on this being a top five defense all season. long. But the fact that they're even there now is incredibly impressive, given where they've been. Yeah, as much as I hate to say this, Justin, the hipsters might have been right about Shangoon. Well, Jabari Smith. I know. Javari Smith and Jalen Green, I think if you put them in a draft combine setting where they did,

you know, shuttle drills and vertical leaps and, you know, 20. yard dashes. They would blow Shen Green off. Shen Green. Shen Green. They would blow them off the screen. Is that the couple name? Yeah, the Jalen Green. The Shen Green. In OK magazine.

They would blow that guy off the screen. But on a basketball court, there's no argument for those guys being the level of Hooper that he is at this point. It just doesn't exist. He is the best of their young players right now, which is hard to believe at this point in in all three of their development that he's so much better than the other two. But he is. And he's shown enough on defense, which is, you know, it's got to be gratifying for Imeo doca.

But I think there's just something to be said about a coach who holds players accountable and bringing in real professional NBA players. There was just no organization to anything or no, there was no plan offensively and defensively. for the Rockets the past two seasons, the previous two seasons. And now they're just so much more professional and make more sense. And Dylan Brooks, as LeBron quite accurately pointed out, is deserving of the deal that he garnered this past summer.

He's just changed everything for this team's makeup and their identity on defense. And that's incredible. And Fred Van Vleet, again, he's one of my favorite guys in the league because he just does everything right. He's not, again, he's not going to blow you away with athleticism and all of that stuff, but he more than makes up for it in toughness and guile and smarts. And he's brought something that they absolutely needed. And again, we got to give E-May to credit because all reports suggested was his idea to say, get the hell out of James Harden sweepstakes.

As fast as we can, we're trying to be serious about winning and building, you know, championship level habits on this team. with these young guys and, you know, little baby's best friend is not going to be the answer. And the idea that they pivoted from Hardin to Van Vleet. The watchability difference between watching Hardin with this team versus what we're getting is night and day. Like the clippers are, God, they're tough to watch nowadays.

Just not only Hardin, but just like trying to figure that on the fly. Whereas like the rockets, they have the same young athletes flying around, but there's so much structure in place there. nowadays, Rob, it's not like, oh, God, I got to watch this Rockets game because I have to watch X, Y, Z. It's like, the Rockets are on. I can't wait to see what is happening here. Yeah. And a lot of that is the defense, which as you laid out, I was like, they would not be performing at this level if they were James Hardin's Rockets. No, no. No. And again, they pivoted from Brooke Lopez to, to Dylan Brooks, guys.

Again, it was, but with the same idea, it's like, this guy's going to help us be very good at defense. You know, like there's a plan, there's a vision that makes sense. And, you know, Jalen Green yelling at certain guys last year about not being serious enough about the team and focused and this. It's night and day, man, between last year and this year, the talent upgrades, the just toughness upgrades. It's really heartening to see. It's still early, you know, but it's beautiful to see them playing defense at this level. the other thing that's been night and day is the willingness to put the ball

in Shangoon's hands and trust that good things will happen from it but they need to do it in crunch time too like I get it Jalen Green we want to get against the Clippers yeah yeah that was that was I thought a big moment that I think we might look back at at in the overall trajectory

of the Rockets 29 seconds in that game left against the Clippers down one they go to Shangun against Kauai Leonard in the post and he bodied Kauai got his spot drew a foul with a chance to win the game. Now, James Harden hitting an and one three basically erased all of that from ever happening.

But that whole game, I thought the Rockets just, they were so tough and they were so resilient and they were so committed to their cause in a way that we just have not seen in years, frankly. And the willingness to operate and have a hub, have an organizing philosophy on offense, I think is a big part of that. And all of that comes down to Shangun.

Michael Pina had a great profile of Shangoon on the ringer.com. Definitely go check it out. One of my favorite things in it was the way Pina categorized Shangoon as a control center. And that's really the role he's filling for this team.

It's not that he can do everything Nicola Yokic can do or even everything DeMana Sabonis can do. It's the functioning center of this team is now Alper and Shangoon, whether that's the post or pick and roll. He's getting a lot of touches. He's incredibly involved.

And it's really paying off for Houston. So, I was very skeptical of the Shangoon love at first, as has been well documented on this podcast. But when I turned around on him, it was, it was, might have been two years ago now. They came and they played the Clippers and I'm watching the Rockets. And he is literally the only person on the floor who understands what should be happening. He can't play all five positions, but he's literally telling, no, Jalen Green, you do this. All right, now come here.

all right, Jabari, go do that. Like, organizing the entire offense for these guys. I was like, okay, this dude is a player, you know, and now he's just elevated himself to being like, no, not only do I organize and dictate, I actually like get things done myself. It's incredible. Yeah, it's one thing to provide Shangoon opportunities

to play through mistakes and whatnot. It's another thing to what they've been doing, which is orient what they're doing around Shengun. It takes a lot of courage or at the very least acknowledgement that there's something special baked within Shengoon in order to really kind of make him the centerpiece. This is the conversation we were having going into the season was like, what is Shengoon? If he's not the hub of your offense, then is he so much of a liability on defense that like it makes things difficult. What does it mean for some of the other young guys, Amend Thompson, who actually by being out, Amend Thompson probably clarifies this team in ways that down the road might be a little messy. but Kevin Pelton had this stat and this is where getting some of the adults in the room, I think,

also helps a Shengoon is that 78% of Shangoon's potential assists are now being converted up from 58% from last year. That's Fred Van Bleet. That's Dylan Brooks, one of the field goal percentage leaders in the league being there. And so I got to credit the Rockets. I was a little skeptical about bringing the adults in the room and having some sort of effect that like all of a sudden makes Jalen Green good and makes all these other guys clean up all their mistakes, but so far, Rob, I think it has worked out for them. Yeah, I think for Fred Van Vleet in particular,

the value he brings in playing good help defense, getting guys in the right positions, working a really nice and intuitive two-man game with Shangoon, all that stuff is really valuable. Dylan Brooks, as we've been talking about, had just been playing at an all-defensive level yet again and making shots on top of it, which is huge. Jock Landale has basically been invisible to bad

when he's played, but it hasn't really mattered that much. And if anything, Jeff Green has been a little more important than I expected in the rotation. Jeff Green is closing games. He didn't against the Clippers, but in big moments, and that's actually what I love about this team. It's that in other times,

maybe you default to Jabari because he's the next wave of guys. You have to develop him. But EMA is setting a high bar and being like, Jeff Green is winning games now, and you have to play up to that level. And I love that as a development tactic. And Jabari, coming out of that game said everything

you want to hear a young player say when they're benched in a big moment about taking that learning opportunity seriously about knowing that he has to earn those opportunities this just feels like and this is, I feel insane saying this about the Houston Rockets. It feels like a team with its head on its shoulders, with its head

screwed on right. They feel like a functional adult basketball team. And regardless of how much they drift up or down in the standings based on, you know, are they hitting threes this month, are other team surging, do they have injuries? Those habits are incredibly meaningful and are incredible in terms of the development of these guys. Jalen Green is a great example of this where by the numbers, Jalen Green is not having an amazing

season. His efficiency isn't off the charts and the way you might want. And in particular, inside the arc, has not really been able to make the most of his opportunities just yet. But honestly, this kind of role, in a lot of cases, a second side guy attacking. defenses that are in rotation, it really sharpens Jalen Green's game. And it's going to be a mixed bag until he figures out some of the nuances of it. But the moves he's making, they feel more impactful because he's not trying to make everything

happen for himself all the time. It feels like a really effective counterpunch that we're waiting to land in the way that it's ultimately going to. Also, this might be, and we talked about Golden State and development, it might be that he should have, he should get to master. second side attacking closeouts, not being the primary guy, master that,

and then maybe we can upgrade you to something more substantial, but like get good at something, please, as a young player. You know what I mean? And then we can sort of add to your plate afterwards. And it works on defensively too, right? Like this team being professional

and successful defensively, now all of a sudden when you have Tari Isson come in and is flying around as like a really unpredictable. Such a Rob player. Oh my God. I mean, he's incredible. Like the way he'll time out

is double teams, the blocks and steals he'll get just by being a really energetic presence on defense. That works so much better when everyone else knows what they're doing. And he's not just like chaos on top of chaos. I would say ultimately probably going to be like playing sort of team.

Yeah. But that's obviously a big step forward for what they happen. That's huge. Yeah. Huge step. forward and as much as we've clowned for Tata's phase three, you know, his phase talk about this team, seems like they're in a new phase. And so credit to him for identifying the idea that like, look, man, we should be marking our growth, you know, as a young team. We should be setting goals for ourselves along the way and doing everything we can to meet those goals, incremental as, you know,

they may be. And credit to them, it seems like that that's going in the right direction. And also, this is, I think, a lot of times coaching in the NBA can get underrated. I think this is proof that coaching freaking matters in this league. Yes, it's important to have talent, but coaching actually matters. Cash in on bawling out this NBA season with Fandul, America's number one sports book. Right now, new customers get $150 in bonus bets with any winning $5 money line bet. That's $150 bucks if your team wins.

So on Monday, I am looking at the game between the Pelicans and the Kings. Kings are on the road giving just one point. It's a really good spread. But I am eyeing the Kings in this when the Pelicans have been very good at home lately. They played the Timberwolves very hard the other night.

They beat the Nuggets. They beat the Mavs. But have you seen the Kings and Deer and Fox lately? I think they've won six in a row going into this. Darren Fox looks like an MVP candidate, so I'll take the Kings, I'll take the points in this one. And if you've been thinking about joining Fandual, there's no better time to join. The app is easy to use and there's a wide range of ways to bet, including quick bets, live same game parlays, the parlay hub, and more. So visit Fandul.com slash ringer MBA and turn dimes into dollars this season, Fandul official

sportsbook partner of the NBA. First online real money wager only $5 pregame money line Wager required. First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook.Fandul.com. Well, let's move along to a team where coaching hasn't matter. In addition to that, pretty much nothing matters if you're Zach Levine, who is getting particularly emo in Chicago. The clip was circulating. After they won the game, came back down from what was it, 22 to 1 to start the game, wouldn't do the post-game interview, he's got the PR person grabbing at him.

It was not good. So obviously, Levine is on the market. It's hard to figure out if, like, he's the one pushing it, the Bulls are the one pushing it, if other teams are pushing it. But it seems like the sweepstakes is on. I guess first and foremost was, do you feel like this is time?

Like, the Bulls had their era. It's time to move on. I think the Bulls never were that excited to pay this dude in the first place. They had to sort of be dragged kicking and screaming into Max and him out. To their credit, this very reason is like, why are we paying this dude all of this if he himself doesn't make us a bona fide playoff team? Isn't that what Max contracts are supposed to be for? The kinds of players that ensure that you're relevant. and Zach Levine has not proven to be that kind of guy.

And so I think it's a both thing. You know, it's one, again, if the reports are to be believed, and I have no reason to discount the actual reporting that's happening on the ground up there, he's felt a way about Billy Donovan ever since getting benched last year. So he's now got a personal vendetta against the freaking head coach. And so apparently that relationship, ship can't be mended. And again, he doesn't have the greatest contract in the world, guys.

Like, Chicago is not going to cry when this guy leaves town in that deal that he has. And so I think it's going to be mutually beneficial for both parties to move on because the toxicity has gotten to a point where, you know, it's become untenable. So, yeah, man, both sides of this, management, the coach, the player. everybody. Let's move on. Rob, what do you think? I think we're past that point, aren't we? We're past the point where they should have moved on,

but this is what they've got. Clearly, the start to this season is not to anybody in Chicago's liking. I think at this point, it's just a matter of taking calls, making calls, figuring out what the right offers are for these guys. Because not only is Levine going to be on the market, but you can have to Marjorozen conversations. obviously you can have Alex Caruso conversations. If you can get takers on the line,

you can have Nicola Vucovitchavich conversations. So there's a lot of negotiating to be had in Chicago, but what do the Bulls want? Because we've seen historically what they want is this kind of comfortable competency. And I'm sure there's lots of ways to go about that, but you're not necessarily going to get competent quasi-all-star-level players

from the contenders that are going to be in the market for Zach Levine. I think most of those packages are going to be more picks based, more based on young talent, young players. And if Chicago can move in that direction and can convince itself that that's in the best interest and like the best interest in the future of the franchise, I think the three of us would be all for it. But we've been nudging the balls in that direction for years now. I think that is the question with Chicago is like how much do they want to go full scale,

blow it up? Because this probably is the toughest position to be in the NBA. you went through the rebuild or the retooling in Chicago more specifically. Do you have it in you to do that all over again? Teams like the Magic have, like other teams have and they've been successful. A lot of times it comes down to getting draft picks, like hitting the right ones in order to rebuild. But like, I don't know, man. Wads, what do you think?

Like, we say the Magic have, but like they started this thing when they traded Dwight Howard. 10 years ago. Like, they took them 10 years to get to this point. That's a long time. Not every management group has it in them. But just selfishly speaking, I think all of their core players, with the exception to Vucci Maine, or are people who can help actual real teams.

I think Zach Levine, in a different environment, can help a real team, do real things in the playoffs. Same for Damar de Rosen, what he does with one-on-one scoring, even his playmaking, which he's mostly not allowed to do here. And of course, Karu sanity, like, forget about it. I want to see this guy on a real team. And so I think if the domino effect of getting rid of Levine is that we get these other guys on teams with actual aspirations for us as viewers and fans and enthusiasts, man, I'm excited by that prospect. Yeah. that is honestly what I felt myself gravitating toward as I was coming up with Levine destinations.

It's like, would this team rather DeMartre Rosen? Isn't Al's Caruso like a more helpful player to a team like the Sixers that just needs like a little bit more defense and then to see what they are? But let's get to Levine first. So the obvious suitors and the ones that I think he has atop his list, Rob, Sixers, Lakers, heat. Do any of those teams entice you as like, oh, Levine would make the most sense there? I think the Lakers in a heartbeat

would make a lot of sense but what are they willing to give up and would it be enough to really move the needle for Chicago? I think a lot of the constructions out there are pretty unimpressive unless you start getting into are you willing to give up

Austin Reeves in a deal like this? Then maybe Chicago would have a reason to stay on the line but other than that what else are they offering? Mooshite prospect Austin Reeves? You sure that they could get rid of him?

I mean it'd really be a turning point. point for the whole franchise, you know. There's no going back after you trade Austin Reeves. I think Zach Levine is a worthwhile project, obviously, if Austin Reeves is the price. Because he's way better at doing what Austin Reeves is now tasked with doing than Austin Reeves is. This is the thing. He's much better. He would be a much better let LeBron take a freaking.

rest for once in offensive creation, which, by the way, like, I don't know if you guys watched that Portland game, but, like, LeBron was playing so fucking hard, and he was so good, but it's like, dude, like, he should not be having to do this against the worst team in the freaking NBA without its best player, right? And so, yeah, I think he would be overqualified to step into Austin Reeves' shoes and, you know, basically take over at times, possession. question-wise. And so, yeah, I think he would be dope. But I think, I think also DeRosen would be better than Austin Reeves at being that secondary creator to as well. You know what I mean? What about both of them? Like, is there, is there a pathway where you trade

for DeRosen for like a first in contract and you keep DeRosen with Reeves? I like that more than like the Levine option, honestly. Maybe. I don't love the fit of DeRosen with the Lakers' best players as much. Yeah, as a second quarter, third quarter spell guy who's going to carry second units, that sounds great. But with LeBron and AD, and they want to play multiple bigs, I'm getting a little nervous about the spacing at that point. And that's where Levine is just such a natural fit. A knockdown shooter who I agree was is a little overqualified for that job, but you want your third guy to be overqualified so that they can jump up in those moments. And I think you could do the same exercise with the heat too

to say that, you know, Zach Levine is a very overqualified Tyler Heer replacement too. If you want to kind of put some deals together that way. Way better. And so he would be incredible on the heat too. Yeah. I think the question with the heat is do you blow your powder on

Levine as opposed to waiting down the road for like a Mitchell or someone else? This seems like the perpetual question with the heat and they might just be better off just finally getting someone in there. But I don't know. Where do you stand on that, Waz? I'm impatient, man.

To me, you get the guy while he's there. Because, again, to say like, oh, we're just going to wait for the next disgruntled guy, like, after Dane, right? That guy's Zach Levine. There's no guarantee that it's going to be a guy of equal billing, whoever that next, quote, unquote, disgruntled star or team is tired of player X guy. So to me, you need to strike while the iron's hot because I don't know. Do you guys think Donovan Mitchell is like a guy you should be thirsty to get into your building at this point? I personally don't feel that way. If you have Jimmy Butler and Bam out of bio on your team, I think maybe so.

Yeah. And the risk isn't as great just because there was a game early on in the season. I think it was the weird ass game against the Raptors where Levine was just like wearing like a back. brace during half-time shooting. There's always the injury concerns there. Obviously, he had surgeries and whatnot. His injury history is scary. Yeah, so I guess Mitchell is a little safer in that regard.

But I'm with you guys. At a certain point, like, when are the heat going to get someone as opposed to flirting with every single superstar in the market? Well, this is the lesson of the Damien Lillard Derby, isn't it? Is that you don't always just get to pick and choose and play your offer to the market. Like, you got to just go after these guys when they come available. because not only do we not know when the next star is going to be available, you don't know who it's going to be, are they going to be a good fit,

you don't know what the market for that player is going to be, because 10 other teams are thinking the same thing you are. Oh, we'll just wait. We'll just wait for the next guy because we don't like Zach Levine for X, Y, or Z reason. Zach Levine is a great basketball fit with a bunch of contenders. And if they have the assets to do that and it makes sense for them financially, I think they probably should just go after it. By the way, another thing, guys, remember Joel and Bede was going to be.

be the next disgruntled superstar. Remember that? How's that looking right now? Looks like, Joe L&B's like, Maxi respects me, he's a great player. This is pretty nice.

Give it a few weeks. We'll see. But that's one reason that's one reason when I think the Sixers are at a different place in this conversation because I think the baseline

for Philadelphia is high enough right now. I might wait. And I think some of it is, you know, they clearly do need another shot creator. Like that would be

Billy beneficial to them or just like a facilitator, a playmaker who can fit in with their best guys. I do worry that Levine and Maxi are a little too similar in some ways, a little too duplicative in some ways. And in particular, if I'm Philadelphia, I want someone with a little higher defensive profile, even if that means trading off some of the offense. Yeah, it's weird, but my gut reaction to the Sixers was like, I think that they could wait for a better fit, which is wild because you assume that they would be at the front of the line of any of these conversations,

but like, I think they bought themselves enough leeway to pick and choose their next guy. I don't know who that guy will be. The obvious guy is, is really tough to figure. Like, OG and Anobi makes a lot of sense, but does he give you enough offensive juice as a third star?

But you're right. I don't know if Levine Maxi is a backcourt long term really gets you there defensively. And so I think this brings us back to our friends the Warriors wise. Like, what do you think about any deal that flips clay and some of the young guys or maybe CP as the contract plus picks in order to bring Levine in as the new clay. So the reason why I like this is if you're going to break up the core of the warriors, it better be for an actual upgrade.

You know, meaning Zach Levine plays Clay Thompson's position. and is better than him at it. Like, obviously, clearly, it's going to be a plug-in-play type of situation. The movement shooting, the secondary ball handling. He's going to be way better at it than Clay. He's probably still, even at this point in Clay's life, a defensive downgrade, which is fucking crazy to say. But he is a defensive downgrade from Clay Thompson.

He still is. But, man, the upgrade on all. offense is going to be exponential. And that was supercharged the warrior situation immediately. You know, especially if you still get to keep wiggins in there. Oh, yeah, no, no, I'm getting, I'm starting to get excited right now, guys. If you can't tell. I don't hate it, but I'm not as gung-ho as I would be about the heat fit or the

Lakers fit. Mm-hmm. And some of that is that, like, there's a difference between being a good off-ball shooter in the way that Zach Levine is a good offball shooter and running the constant motion that the Warriors do. And Levine, I think, would be great as a finisher in those situations,

as the actual, like, I'm going to curl into an actual shot, but the curl into a handle, into a handoff, then I need to make the play for the next guy. Zach Levine's like a pretty good distributor in certain situations, but they're more discreet pick and roll situations, not in the flow of this very elaborate offense. I would worry a little bit about that. but maybe maybe I'm protesting too much.

Like maybe at the end of the day, you just go for the talent and you go for the scoring. You go for a guy who's just more reliably going to deliver you 20 points a game than literally any non-steff warrior at will at this given point in time. Yeah, I think what Rob's saying is that Levine, while he might be hot,

he's not exactly a mathematician, y'all. That's what he's trying to say about that. One more team I had on my list, the Raptors. I tried to work out a three-team trade, which is always difficult. With the Pacers, Bulls and Raptors, the Pacers getting Siakum, the Raptors getting Levine, the Bulls, unfortunately, the problem is the Pacers just have too many good young players on low-money contracts. And so, like, in order to do that, like, you're giving up Topin, you're giving up

Nempart, um, D. healed. It's just a lot of solid players that I'm not sure the Pacers can afford at this point and things are going so well. You don't typically see teams that are doing well getting rid of good players. Dick coming from the Raptors, right? Yeah, so like Dick

and I think he's the only one I got from the Raptors, but healed Top and Nemharp. I think Daddy's Young was in there to get the money work. It takes a lot of players to get the money right, but you're basically doing it for young players and picks. I kind of like this deal from Chicago side more.

than some of the other ones we're talking about. And it's going to depend on the protections on the picks and how many picks you get. But the idea of we're not just getting draft picks, but Andrew Nemhart, who's a legit... I mean, I wasn't going to be the one to say it, but you are getting dick. No, we were.

According to the Raptors, PA announcers, it's a big one, too. So is the added benefit of that. This is the latest 10 a.m. podcast we have ever recorded. The latest night 10 a.m. podcast. But Grady Dick's a great example of the kind of player who'd be really beneficial for the Bulls.

He's not quite ready enough to play real rotation minutes for the Raptors, even though he's been thrust into that position at some points because of their injury situation. But he'd be great in a rebuild. As a guy you can invest in, he has the profile of exactly the kind of player you want to surround Stars with. So if you can get him and Nemhard and picks,

in addition to some good veterans and healed and topping, I'd be on board for that. I think that makes a lot of sense for Chicago more than like, oh, are we getting Ruri Hachamura back in this deal? That doesn't really do a lot for me.

What about the Knicks, Waz? Anything there? Are they getting rid of R.J. in this deal? It's the problem. They're like three deep at every position. Quickly, who are you sending out for this? I don't, man.

Well, you can't. trade any CAA guys and you can't trade any Villanova guys. So who do you trade? You can't trade Mitchell Robinson because he's pulling down 10 rebounds. Oh my God. What a season for Mitchell Robinson. Yeah, he's looking fantastic. What he did to when Benyama was nasty.

Yeah, but I think the Knicks, particularly, their next move needs to be for a bona fide blue chipper. You can't have all of this buildup for Zach LaVille. It just can't be that. Has to be an all-MBA level guy that they're doing this deal for. Because if that's the case, just keep this core group of gritty guys who's going to get you a five-seed every single year. Really fun to watch. I don't see why you move on from this for Zach Levine.

He's not going to make them, he's not going to elevate them into the next tier of Eastern Conference teams. I don't believe that to be the case. And so to me, it's got to be for an all-M-Bee. or not, you know, a Zach Levine who's, you know, top-tier shooting guard, but he's not going to be the difference maker against a box or against the Celtics. Can I pitch you guys on a DeRosen trade? Yeah, let's hear.

Sure, please. This is going to sound weird for a team that's three and nine and that we have thrown some gray clouds above on this podcast. What about Memphis for DeMar DeRosen? And I'm thinking if the Grizzlies are feeling desperate to get their season back on track, they could move like Stephen Adams and Luke Knard and picks for DeMard de Rosen. And that gives them a score that they desperately need until Jah comes back if it happens in the short order. But really even forecasting down the line, the kind of half court scoring option they don't really have.

And so if you're Memphis and you're thinking, once Jaws back, we're going to take off running and we're going to be able to climb in the standings, at least to get credibly into the playing race. I think he could make sense. Like a lineup that's Jha, Marcus Smart, Desmond Bain, DeRosen's big enough to play at the four, and Jaron Jackson at the five, I think there could be something there.

I like it because Stephen Adams, who, do we think he's ever going to play basketball again, right? If you can get basically a guy who might never play again, plus Luke Conard, and, you know, some marginal pick compensation for DeMore DeRosen. I love it if only because it's just a ball handling pop that they so badly need. Mark is smart, yes. While he handles the ball a lot, I don't know that he necessarily does it with pop anymore.

And DeRosa still creates shots and again, like for the million times, this guy's a legitimate, you know, distributor. He has that in his bag when he's deployed that way. And so that versatility on the ball, I think is sorely needed because much as we love Desmond Bain and he's getting his buckets, he's a scorer. He's a bucket getter. He's not a setup guy. And I think DeRosen offers way more versatility and ball handling with some actual juices. So I would love that for Memphis.

And he's a great vet. Yes. This is damning with faint praise a little bit, but I think DeRosen would be one of the best passers on their team. Yes. Yeah. Right. Well, see, that's the problem. I, I understand it to a certain extent as a stopgap, but we've been selling the Grizzlies is like the next championship young team coming from nowhere, right? And the final piece is DeRosen? I don't know. Right now. Is it too many defensive liabilities if in a, in a ideal Morant world where he's back and playing and happy and fun again? Like,

is that too many guys you could target with DeRosen and Morant on the court? I just don't think right now they're like the up-and-coming championship team with all these great developmental stories. They're a sinking boat and I'm giving them a bucket. That's where we are. Well, I think right now, yes,

but I almost wonder if you just write off this season and just regroup for the next season already. Like actually getting a pick in there wouldn't be so bad to figure things out as opposed to mining guys from the end of the first. absolutely not and I think it depends on your mentality as a franchise if you're okay with that outcome go for it like go for the pick I think it would legitimately be helpful

to get more young talent in especially if you can if you can pick that prospect just right where they're a little bit more NBA ready than some of the other guys they've been drafting recently absolutely go for that but if there's pressure here to turn this season around I think you could do worse than derosen so this is the last one we can get out on this but was So the Lakers trade back for Alex Caruso. He is now starting in the back court with Austin Reeves.

Do you get season tickets within the first five minutes or would it take like 10 to 15 minutes? No, but I'm definitely on PR to get a credential for sure. You're not paying customer, but you are a customer. I'm a customer, but I'm definitely going to work them hookup lines first. But yeah, Caruso has. been sorely missed since the day that he left. We've talked about how it's insane how much they miss Dennis Schrooter right now, particularly on defense.

And also, I mean, you know, I keep mixing the two white boys up, which is ridiculous. But Caruso coming back. They're not the same. Okay. They're not even close to the same player. But Caruso coming back would automatically give them that pop on defense. and make the defense start making way more sense again. And it would just be incredible.

And again, he's the perfect LeBron player, dirty work guy, transition guy, high IQ guy. It's just too beautiful when him and LeBron were together. Of course, I want to be signed up for a reunion. Are you kidding me? I think to make that reunion happen, though, the Lakers are going to have to jump a lot of teams in line. The Alex Caruso Derby is going to be real. I'm not saying that the return is going to be amazing. But yeah, like if you're Philly, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Cleveland,

if you're a playoff team that wants to make some noise or do something serious in the postseason, you probably need to at least consider what you can put together for Alex Caruso because every kind of team can use a player like him. Yeah, the whole next podcast we're going to do is the Alex Caruso Derby. So we figured we'd wait.

Yeah, clear out for that one. All right. That's it for us today. We'll be back on Wednesday. I think we're going to be in your feeds a little earlier on the day on Wednesday so that if you're traveling for the holidays, you'll be able to listen to it. Maybe don't listen to it in the car if you have kids. Because you're never sure where we'll go. Whose fault is that? Whose fault is that? Definitely not me. But thank you to Jack Sanders on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Wednesday. We'll be back on Wednesday. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in

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