The Ringer NBA Show - The Warriors Are Up Against the Injury Bug As Well As the Raptors | The Mismatch

Episode Date: June 4, 2019

The undermanned Golden State Warriors managed to take Game 2 from the Raptors in Toronto; as the series shifts to Oakland, will they be able to replicate that success (0:51)? Plus: With the draft approaching in two weeks’ time, which sleepers could rise above the fray (38:54)? Hosts: Chris Vernon, Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. It's Liz Kelly, host of Tea Time. Exciting news happening across the podcast network, your favorite celebrity and pop culture podcasts are moving out of Channel 33 and into their very own feed called Ringer Dish. On Ringer Dish, you can still listen to Jam Session on Wednesdays and Tea Time on Fridays, and we'll be launching a brand new show that will publish every Monday, starting with a deep dive on J-Lo and Ben Affleck's infamous relationship hosted by Amanda Dobbins and Juliet-Lutman. So to hear more about the royal family and our current celebrity obsessions, subscribe to Ringer dish on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Ringer MBA show. I'm Chris Vernon.

And joining me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com. It is Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O'Bomber, A.K.A. Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O'Conflict, A.K.A. Kevin O'C.O.C.C.A. Kevin O'C.O.C.C.K.A. Kevin O'C.? Kevin O'Climer, aka Kevin O'Caddyland, aka Kevin O'Chairity is doing so well. Kevin! Oh, I like that. Oh, charity, Chris. We are doing well.

We're just about $60,000 pledged to dunk on cancer. 948 people as of recording have pledged to donate to that already. It's been really, really inspiring, Chris. It's been great. How many dunks have we had? We've had 14 dunks. so far through two games of the NBA finals. And hopefully with possibly five more games to go,

we get a whole bunch more. But so far, we're after a great start. And if people want to check that out, check out dunk oncancer.com or raising money for cancer research and treatment at Dana Farber Cancer Institute in Boston. It's been great so far, Chris. Yeah, you have got to be to the moon

because it was a week ago, literally a week ago when you announced this. So 60 grand in a week's time is truly unbelievable. So a massive thank you, I know on your behalf, too, for all of the mismatch listeners and everybody out there that has donated thus far. And hopefully, by the end of this finals, we can get that thing cracking over 75, 100 grand, whatever number you can get to by the time this is done. But people can still get involved. People can still get involved right now, even on the dunk thing, right? Yeah, absolutely.

you know, I think that's been the coolest part is like sitting, I'm home in Massachusetts for the finals until game four. So I've been watching games with my dad. And it's been it's been so fun rooting for the dunks. And I've gotten messages from people on Twitter and Instagram being like, yo, it has changed the way I'm watching the finals. I'm a casual fan. It's making me invested more, knowing that each dunk is going towards cancer research. It's been just super, super cool to see people really excited around the whole fundraiser. Well, we have a crazy finals so far because we have so much time between these games. It is one to one in terms of the tally. And yet, I know that at the beginning of the series, you picked the Warriors. I picked the Raptors with the caveat of Durant playing or not. And this would tell you that we've got so far a great finals. I'm betting you feel good about your pick. and I feel good about my pick.

And so that's all you need to know about where we are within this finals, right? Like you're probably feeling good about the Warriors being able to win the series. I'm feeling good about the Raptors being able to win the series. So at least we've gotten a huge payoff through two games so far. I believe this is, you know, you just want the finals to be good basketball. You want the finals to be entertaining. And through two games, I'd say 10 out of 10 in terms of those two criteria. Yeah, it's been an awesome final so far.

I thought game two was especially fascinating to watch. The Raptors played a freaking boxin one. Middle school style defense in the fourth quarter of an NBA finals game. We got a box in one. It's wild, man. Here's a thing. Hey, finish the sentence. And it worked.

Yeah, and it worked. I mean, it almost got them the freaking win at the end of the finals. And like that speaks to. how depleted Golden State was in that game with Durant already out. Clay Thompson going out in the fourth quarter, Kvon Looney out in that game. Like, they were extremely limited to the point that they can play a box and one and it worked. Yeah. Well, one of the things that I found interesting is, and I read your article about Steve Kerr's adjustments,

obviously we have so long to talk over everything that has taken place in the series thus far and everything gets dissected a ton. I've mentioned it before, but there was an old article years ago that I read in Sports Illustrated, and it was Jeff Van Gundy when he was currently a coach, and he said that if you go into the huddle and you call the perfect play and your guys come out and you're down by two, and they run the play and you get the open three, and the guy takes it and the ball is in the air, and at that moment, it's good coach, bad coach, good coach, bad coach. coach, good coach, bad coach, right? And I've always thought about that. And there I am watching this game the other night. And I'm thinking, my God, how everything about the narrative changes. I talked about this earlier. When Steph Curry and Kevin Durant both had open threes against Houston and they missed it. And then the next day we come on and the narrative becomes about Houston and what Houston did right and what's going to happen now going

forward and whatnot. And with that Toronto Golden State game the other night, you know, it's about Steve Kerr's adjustments and it's about all the things that Golden State was able to withstand despite not having to rant and losing Clay Thompson in the midst of things. But they went up 106 to 94 with five minutes and 39 seconds left. And if Iguodala does not hit that three, they would have not scored for almost the entire second half of the fourth quarter. But instead he made it. He made it. He made the shot.

And so now here we are. And what is the narrative and what are we talking about if? And again, this is the what if game and this is the way it goes. I understand. But narratives can switch so drastically dependent upon. I left that game and thought, man, the Raptors let them off the hook. The Raptors are getting them in the type of game that it's going to take in order to be

able to really compete and possibly win against Golden State. And they got hit with the 1-18-0, which ended up being over 20, scoring tsunami. Outside of that, they obviously, you know, played the better game. I mean, you can't take away that, you know, 20-something-0 run. But the one wave got them. And other than that, I thought the Raptors played very well. I mean, they killed them on the offensive glass. They took a lot more shots than the Warriors.

They did all the things that you need. But they lost, and it's 1-1, and it's headed back to Oracle Arena. And they've obviously got to be able to steal one of these next two there, because winning four out of five against that team is, that's a bridge too far. Sure, definitely. And that's why I came away from that game feeling similar in the sense that what a missed opportunity for Toronto here. When people talk about Golden State, they're unbeatable. There's juggernaut that can't be beaten.

But people say the only way they can lose is if, you know, Durant's out and another guy gets hurt. These are the circumstances that those people are talking about. Katie's out. Clay gets hurt in the fourth quarter. Steph has no shooting around him. All the ingredients were there for the Raptors to actually. actually take advantage here and cook up a recipe to win this game. They did with the box and won.

They just weren't able to finish the job at the end. And that's why with Toronto, it's like, how do they not come away with this game? And partially, it's like you're saying, they just miss them open shots. Golden State was allowing a handful of open shots to occur. And those shots did not just fall. Marcus Hull had two open threes. He missed them. If he hits those, there's six points going the other way.

And the whole conversation and discourse about this game is completely. completely different. However, I do think in regards to the coaching changes that Steve Kerr made, the way we talking about them depends on whether a team wins or loses, but I do think those changes were at least made with the intent of positioning, obviously, every changes, but they're intended to put his team into positions to succeed, and they worked. Cousins on Mark O'Soul did help neutralize him with size rather than Jordan Bell being out there. That was effective. Draymond Green, the conversation entering game two was about do they go small with Jamon at the five, but they went big with cousins and with Bogan.

And that's one thing that I'm sure I know you might be interested in, Chris, in terms of all the talk about small ball. Golden State, the team that really popularized small ball went big. They went jumbo in game two of the finals. I don't think they can win like that, though. Not over the long term. No, I don't. I don't.

And I mean, I think you saw, they didn't score for all. almost six minutes at the end of that game. They could not score against Toronto. Do you think Steve Kerr is saving that lineup? Is he saving Dremont at the five with Steph Curry at point guard for when Katie returns, four and Clay, they hope is healthy? So you get that true Hampton's five lineup because it seems to me that he very well might be. He didn't use it at all in game one.

He only used it for a couple of minutes in game two. But they did show a couple of signs that it will be something. that they turned to. They started setting their ball screens higher, closer to the logo that made it harder for Toronto to recover on plays when they were trapping Steph. And they did run that side pick and roll that they used against Houston and Portland over and over a couple of times against the Raptors. But they didn't go to it completely. They're not spamming the pick and roll. They didn't use Jemont of 5 for more than three minutes. So I wonder if maybe they're just saving it for a time when they really, really, really need it. Well, they have to have Durant to do it.

it. And it was so funny because we talk about narratives. Within the course of that game, Kevin, it went from, you see, all these people that talk about how they don't need to rant or stupid, to, hey, maybe they don't need to rant. I mean, it's unbelievable, right? Like, if Iqadala misses the shot, do they need to rant? Like, I think they need to rant. I still think they need Durant if they're going to win this series. I do. I don't think it's enough. I'm with you. I'm with you because During the game, I had a few people responding to my article on Friday. On Friday, the headline was, The Warriors need Kevin Durant now more than ever. And a couple of people responded like, ha, see, they don't.

And it's like, well, they sort of still do. And it's towards the end of the fourth quarter, we saw exactly why. Because the only reason you're able to use a box in one, the only reason you're able to trap pick and rolls involving Steph Curry is because of the lack of reliable offball shooters that are surrounding him on the court. So when Clay is off the court as well, there's nobody besides apparently Quinn Cook, who is effectively able to a space to floor that you're actually worried about him taking those shots. And with KD, in game one last week, Chris, it was, they had Clay isolating at times at the top of the key with pick and rolls for him or just isolations. And if KD's on the court, that's not Clay handling the ball.

It's KD handling the ball, one of the greatest scorers of all time. So that alone, obviously, is an upgrade. But even with KD off ball, just the fact that you have a true knockdown shooter on the court. That forces the defense to stick to him. Kauai Leonard suddenly can't become a guy who's helping off the ball. Suddenly Kauai needs to stick to Kevin Durant because he's such a potent off ball shooter because he's able to cut for lobs because of the fact that he's also going to be the guy eventually getting the ball through actions on the ball. So it's like, yeah, they don't necessarily quote unquote need KD to win a series. I think they can without him. However, it goes

not saying it's a captain obvious here but it obviously significantly increases their chances and i think both game one and game two showcased just how valuable he is just in different ways all right let's move to cousins because it was a week ago you laughed me off the air kevin o'connor i did i did i was wrong when i brought up cousins as a legitimate player and how much money is on the line for him in this particular series, he certainly, he played a massive role in them winning that game. And it was the first time, in fairness, that I watched him and I thought, you know what, this guy may just be able to reinvent himself, not necessarily be the superstar, the, you know, when you're seeing the line across the bottom of the screen, say, DeMarcus Cousins 30 points of 23 rebounds or something

like that, like not that guy, but we have seen over the course of NBA history, and I'll just go through like the last, you know, whatever, 20 years, these amazing superstar caliber players or all-star caliber players that have been able to reinvent themselves and they are just so immensely talented that they are able to have a skill set that can make them, maybe they're not huge stars, but they are winning players that are. very valuable. And you think about guys like Grant Hill who had to overcome terrible injuries. Antonio McDiase, you can go look him up on YouTube. This guy was a major high flyer, but then he's knocking down 18 footers for the Spurs years later. Penny Hardaway did it and ended up

having, you know, several years after devastating injury. Hell, we've even seen Rose this past year. Yeah, yeah, and we even saw Derek Rose, you know, this past year, have a really good season. And again, he's not. starting the All-Star game. He is not, you know, one of the best players at his position in the league per se, but they're still very valuable. And, you know, I think it was a reminder. Cousins is a hell of a passer. I mean, really good out of that high post, you know, elbow, where they can put him there and he can find shooters. And he is just so supremely skilled, he was never necessarily predicated on athleticism anyway.

It was the first time I've watched him this year, and I thought, you know what, this guy may be able to reinvent himself. Maybe he'll be a little different player, but end up having a lot longer career from this point than what I might have thought prior to the Achilles. Yeah, but Boogie was great in game too. I thought he got up to a little bit of slow start with the Files,

but then in his second stint and beyond, he was great. He had a couple of bad moments on defense, but he also had some terrific moments as well, and he rebounded the ball well. I think with Boogie, the reason why Steve Kerr went with him in the starting lineup was pretty clearly the playmaking on offense. They were whipping the ball around the floor in ways that Jordan Bell and Kavanaugh and Lutie can't. So I think that was the number one reason why Kerr went with him, never mind the fact that he has a size to match Mark or soul, go toe to toe to toe with him, able to help on the defensive boards, an area that they, still had some issues in game two, but we're especially prone in game one. So Boogie did his job, man.

I think in regards to his contract earnings, I still feel what I said last week in that he's not going to do enough in the finals to become suddenly a max guy. He's still probably going to be someone who signs a one or two year deal that's another prove it contract. This was like the first prove it deal.

Then there's another prove it deal coming later where he can try to show that he's still a max level player. But he's not there yet, of course. for the time being, he doesn't need to be for the school and state warriors team. The job he did in game two, if they can replicate that moving forward, it'll be really difficult for Toronto. So who's going to give Quinn Cook $40 million this offseason? It's funny with Quinn Cook because it's like, this guy's been a knockdown shooter for

use. So I think with Steve Kerr, he almost has to play him by necessity in order to get shooting on the core and Cook had a great game, obviously. It's so funny, though. I go and I look up these guys. contracts because you always try to figure out who's the guy that we're going to look up and July hits and we're like, wait, what? And Quinn Cook's up there.

He's in the rankings right now of the kind of guy that, you know, like you can have these great playoffs on a big stage. Who was the guy a couple of years ago with the Pelicans that that happened to? The Pelican signed him. I actually liked the guy. And then he signed his deal. Solomon Hill. You remember that for the Pacers?

He was like out of his mind during the playoffs. And Solomon Hill got like a hell of a deal out of playing well for the Pacers in that run. And obviously, I mean, no offense to Solomon Hill, but I haven't heard of much of his accomplishment since. Have you? I don't know. I mean, he also had an injury too. I'm aware. Yeah, he unfortunately has not panned out for the Pelicans in there and there seemingly never-ending pursuit of finding a productive.

the wing player continues. Yes. So anyways, we move back to, we've got Wednesday night is going to be game three. One more thought about game too, Chris. Yep. One of the key players, obviously in that game, arguably the finals MVP so far may as well be Draymond Green. I thought Draymond from the start had just a tremendous game. Earlier in that game, they had him defending Pascal Siakim.

and then in the start of the second half, they had him on Kyle Lowry or Fred Van Vleet. They had him on the primary ball handler. And then late in the game, after Clay Thompson went out, they had Dray and Leonard, and he did a great job containing him as well. So he defended across positions

against key players on Toronto, effectively neutralized each one of them, made it really hard on them to score, never mind all the communication and the playmaking and the rebounding and all the little things that he does out there on the floor, Draymond had just an extraordinary game that goes beyond the box score, as did Steph with the amount of gravity that he just pulls the defense away, opening up cutting lanes for others. But Draymond and Steph, it's funny with those two guys, they put up numbers in the raw box score.

But both of those guys, you really need to watch the game to see the true impact that they make that goes beyond the numbers. He is when he is at this rate the best defensive player in the NBA. I don't think there's any question, honestly. Like, he gets switched onto these guards and he can stay with you and block your shot. And he recovers so well off of screens. It's just incredible. And Ramona Shelburne has this great article today about it's called how Draymond Green found his Zen and gets him to talk about the, you know, a couple weeks ago, Marcus Thompson wrote about the weight loss and about the meeting with Bob Myers. but in Draymond's word he says, quote, Bob Myers,

Cando says, if we're going to win the championship, you have to get in shape, Green says. I was like, oh, I know, I'm fat as hell right now. Give me two weeks. It'll probably take 10 days. But give me two weeks for sure and I'll be good. My birthday is March 4th, so I want to enjoy my birthday. But right after, on March 10th, my diet starts,

how many times all of us done this? He said, the article says, Green cut out all of his vices. chips, red wine, fast food, all gone. He ate exactly what his chef told him to. He lived in the training room, lifting weights and doing extra cardio. And then when he got the weight off, he decided to stick with the diet. When I went on this diet, it's like a sense of control. It's a confidence because you feel like you're conquering something, Green says. You're defeating something every day. And then he talks about how it carries on to other areas of his life, et cetera, et cetera. And so

like there's this level of confidence that comes along with it. But this 25 pound weight loss is such an unbelievable story because he looked to be a shell of himself. And now over the course of these last three weeks, he has been a dominating NBA player. He is one of those that there are 10 guys on the court and you never don't notice him. Like every play, he's somehow in the mix somehow. Now, it's one of those like, hey, bro, you're getting paid millions of dollars. You probably shouldn't have to lose 25 pounds just to get ready for the playoffs. But it's a super interesting article nonetheless.

Oh, no doubt about it. I thought the quote that you just alluded to where he mentions how, if you can conquer your eating, if you can conquer your diet, what else can you conquer? And he says, why can't I also conquer my emotions? And it's the truth. So much of what we do is people is a habit, whether we, whether we get angry when someone pulls out in front of us or whether we get angry when our co-hosts, Slanders James Harden, the way in which we react is often just a habit.

And for me, it's the type of thing where I feel like a hippie whenever I say it, but I feel like I'm at the point where I only worry about what I can control. I don't worry about what's out of my control. And so for Draymond, I wonder if part of the mindset when it comes to like dealing with referees is like, you know what? He blew the whistle and it was a mistake, but there's nothing I can do about that. I'm going to stay calm and move on to the next play rather than do something that is detrimental to my team. If you get, I mean, maybe if he gets himself into the habit of reacting differently, it's hard at first, but then it becomes natural. And for Dremont, I wonder

if maybe that will be the next evolution of his career where Dramon suddenly becomes Kauai on the floor, where he has straight emotions, no reactions, no screaming. That's not going to happen, but it's pretty cool to see Draymond allude to that in regards to eating because so much of us is just habits. No, and by the way, shout out to James Hardin for getting the whole damn franchise put on the trade block. I don't know if you missed that story. Let me tell you this regarding Hardin, so not this season, but last season, I was talking to a handful of executives about like, who do you think is MVP? Is it Westberg? Is it Hardin?

You know, who would you vote for? and one GM said to me, he's like, James Hardin would not be my MVP, and I can't understand why everybody thinks he's the guy, and he was the guy when he won. But he said to me, because what often goes overlooked when it comes to these discussions is leadership, the stuff that happens in the locker room on flights and practices and film sessions. And he's like, James Hardin, you know, all my until from around the league for years, that he is not a good leader.

And like, you can make what you want of that. and I think you can weigh that however you want if you're a voter. But I think it's interesting because his point was like, that's why in his eyes, LeBron James should have won many more MVP's because of his leadership ability in those situations. I don't know. I just find it interesting.

It is interesting because it's part of the equation. Yeah. It's one of those. And I heard Simmons and Rosillo talking about this on a podcast a couple weeks back when the all NBA stuff came back. And it is one of those where it's like, okay, if you look at the raw numbers, Kyrie Irving had an unbelievable season, right?

But we all know better. Like, I mean, is it an unbelievable season? Is it? Is it an unbelievable season? Like, yes, those numbers are undeniable. If you look at that on a piece of paper, you would say it would be ridiculous for him to not be awarded on one of the all NBA teams.

And yet everybody that watched that season play out be like, you know, not sure, right? I mean, how much do you factor that in in terms of what a guy did and those individual numbers and what is assigned to that name versus impact on team? And it's always going to be, it's a never-ending debate. And it's what makes basketball so intensely different than a lot of things that we assign statistical analysis to because baseball is baseball, right? That's where this all started. and you are responsible for yourself in large part. And things have evolved to the point where we don't blame pitchers for losing games,

etc, etc. But in basketball, how you affect the team as a whole. And this harkens back to what you were talking about with Curry and Draymond. And you say, you cannot just look at that box score. If you're watching these games, you're sitting there going, my God, this is essential to what they are doing, no matter what number. is assigned next to their name. And Tremont's what?

He's had triple doubles, damn you every game anyway. It's not like the numbers aren't friendly to him. But it's certainly, I say this. Well, and it's a deal with Marc Asaul. It's also a deal with Andre Aguadala, for God's sakes. Andre Aguadala, like, averaged, what, five points a game this year, six points a game? I mean, anybody that looks at the, and you go, God, man, the guy just averaged five or six points a game. you could find anybody that can do that, which is true.

You could. What you cannot find is anybody that can do what he did when it matters most, right? Yeah. You know, all these guys you're mentioning, they're smart players. They're quick decision makers on the floor. There's no hesitation when it comes to either making a pass or swinging the ball across the floor or deciding to drive or whether to rotate or not. All these guys are smart players. and that's been the one thing that's been on my mind quite a lot watching these games

because my mind is on the drafts and it's like we talk so much about athleticism. Can this guy, does he have a quick first step? Can he get by somebody? Is he a shop blocker? But so many of the players that are important this late in the postseason, whether it's the Western or Eastern Conference finals and especially the NBA finals, it's the guys who are smart, intelligent players. And if you're also a great athlete, that matters a ton.

Obviously, Iguidal is a great athlete. Draymond Green has a freakishly long wingspan. That is all significantly important. But what keeps them on the floor in these big important moments is their brain and their ability to calculate decisions in intense moments. And I think when it comes to draft evaluation or pro-personnel evaluation, that needs to be one of the key ingredients that should be near the top of the list in terms of what you're looking for in players to build the championship team.

Because whether it's Iguadala or Draymond Green or Pascal Seacom, or band leader, whoever, like, for these guys succeed, it's about what's happening between the ears. That's right. And you know what? Just to play off of that, the reason also it helps with those particular, you know what I mean,

that you want to look for that, is because coaches are more apt. If you are a willing defender and you do have that basketball IQ, coaches are more apt to put you on the court early in your career when you aren't going to mess things up. Because, I have seen it a hundred times over the years.

The more talented player, sometimes when you wonder why doesn't that guy play or why is this guy playing more than that guy? It's because these coaches, they want to feel like they are in control. And in order for them to feel like they're in control, they need you to be doing what the game plan is and what you were told to do. and being in the right spot so that you can run plays and being in the right spot defensively. They would rather play the inferior player that is in the right spot than the more productive slash more talented player that is in the wrong spot. It happens all the time. And you are so far ahead of the curve if you can just be in the right spot, be a cerebral guy

because the coach doesn't mind giving up a bucket. as long as you were in the right spot or not scoring, as long as you were in the right spot. But what drives them crazy, and especially with rookies, is when you are in the wrong spot. That's why so many coaches hang on to veteran point guards and play veteran point guards

because it's just like I can trust them to do what we're supposed to be doing, even though they might have a more talented player behind them and fans clamor for. I've seen that. I can't tell you. many times, Kev. Just have the guy that knows where to be on both ends of the court, and he'll be able to get on the court. Yeah, for some reason, the guy that comes to mine, and this is, this is silly, but we're mentioning him on an NBA finals podcast, but KJ McDaniels, who was a wing

that went to Clemson, and he was in the 2014 drafts, second round draft pick. He was somebody that I had ranked mid-late first round, and I really, really liked his game. I viewed him as a potential steel. And with him, he had the athletic ability. There's no doubt about his verticality. There's no doubt about his ability to move laterally, his ability to block shots. But he wasn't a quick decision maker. He wasn't a smart player. And he also didn't have a reliable three point shot, but that's a different point. With him, it's like on defense, he has never been the same guy on the defensive end of the floor in the NBA that he could have been at Clemson because he's just slow calculating reads in terms of rotations.

And that is one of the reasons why, besides the jumper, that he's not been able to survive in the NBA, and I was wrong with him in the draft. I missed my evaluation of him. And moving forward, it's like, for me,

when it comes to ranking guys, if I were a decision maker, I'm just not sure how much interest I would have in acquiring players via trade or via free agency or drafting guys that just aren't smart players because those are the players that actually get minutes deep into the postseason.

It alludes to what Dremont said before. There's 82 game players and there's 16 game players. And the 16 game players are the guys that are smart, cerebral players that can make those decisions on the fly really quickly deep into the postseason. All right. So you still feel good about your pick with the Warriors? I do feel good about my pick with the Raptors. And obviously I talked about, you know, keeping it in a range.

It's gotten a little too high. You're playing with fire when you're getting up. I told you 1-10 or more. I do not think the Raptors can win a game like that. I do think they need to get the score a little bit down, but 109 and 109. I think those are the two, right? That the Warriors have put up.

I think Toronto, I think Toronto needs to score more points. Yeah, I think they do too. Regardless of whether it's 130 to 120 or 90 to 80. Like, they got to get more points. I think Toronto. I feel like they have made them wildly uncomfortable, though. They score from the free throw line.

There was at one point during that game where I think they had like, I think it was 17 minutes into the game and anybody not named Clay Thompson, only three guys had made a basket. I mean, that's incredible playing against the Warriors. That is absolutely positively incredible that you could hold them to that. And they have done great in half-core defense. I mean, this is the challenge, as we talked about. How do you get them to have to play? half-court basketball. And though it did get better, as defined by your article, which was one of the great adjustments

was instead of setting those screens at the three-point lines, set them up at the logo. So now all of a sudden we can get going downhill a little bit. And that did create some issues for Toronto. Like their overall half-court defense has been quite good through two games. But with those higher screens being set as well as some other actions that weren't detailed in that article, it did lead to a handful of backdoor cuts for, Golden State that Taunto just can't allow. You can't allow those easy buckets when you're doing such a good job at forcing the ball to bad shooters by trapping Steph or trapping clay. Those backdoor

cuts just can't happen. Even with the box and won at the end of the game, there were a couple of situations where DeMarcus cousins almost had a dunk or they led to an open three that the shot just didn't go in. So there's little holes in the defense that they need to fix, especially and this is why if I'm a Raptors fan, I'm a little bit concerned, especially because Clay is supposed to play in game three. KD is supposed to be back for maybe three, but more likely four.

The fact that both of these games have been so damn close already without Kevin Durant playing, without Golden State being at full strength, now going back to Oracle Arena for possibly the last games ever there, it's a little bit scary. It wouldn't surprise me too much if this is 3-1 by the time.

we talk next week. Yeah, I just think generally they have done a good job of keeping them out of transition. Save that third quarter tsunami. There's just, when they get out running, there's too much cross-matching that goes on because now whoever is supposed to be assigned to said defensive assignment can't get there. And I mean, listen, the reason you get 18-0 put on you is because you don't freaking score. And if you don't score, right, you can't exactly keep them from getting out and flying down the court on you and somebody trying to figure out, oh, God, where's Clay Thompson? And then whoever is closest has to run to them. And they're so good because they don't need that much space. And that one scoring tsunami killed them in the game. Outside of that, that's really

the only one we've seen so far through the two games. And that has been a staple of how the Warriors have buried, frankly, every team from 2014 on. Yeah, and I think for Toronto, they need a bit more from Kauai, and that's unfair to ask when he's having the overall postseason that he's had. But so far through these two games, I think there's a bit more that he can give on defense. His off ball defense has been above average. I think he can be a little bit more locked in on there in terms of preventing some of those

backdoor cuts. And that's silly to say because he's still been overall tremendous on defense. But at this level, I'm just saying that there's little ways that Kauai Leonard can get better even on that. And then on offense, he's only shooting the ball 13 of 34 from the field so far. That's partially because Toronto's done a really nice job with Drayman, Iwadala, and Clay Thompson on the ball on Kauai, in addition to the help defense that they're providing, helping off guys like Siakum or Marcus Sol, sagging off of him, giving him space to shoot threes, or Ibaka's inability to effectively space to floor. from three as well. They're helping well on Kauai. But Kauai partially it's just missed shots.

Partially it's forced him to tough shots. But there's probably ways for Nick Ners to better integrate Kauai Lenten into their offense to get him quality shots. So he's not taking just all inefficient mid-range jumpers. But Kauai can give a little bit more of two for Toronto. That's for sure. I mean, he's obviously not a hundred percent, but that is it's not It's not worthwhile talking about considering what Golden State is going through entry-wise. It is, though. It's part of the equation. It's part of it.

Yeah, yeah, no, no. Like, Curry was not himself in game two either. You know, listen, we're just going to have this massive question mark regarding what happens with the series going forward because you just don't know if Golden State is playing possum with all the news regarding these guys. I know this. Hamstrings are usually not things that are easily just dismissed or recovered from. And obviously, calf tears aren't either. And so we just won't know. It's not like they're going to tell us now because they certainly don't want Toronto getting to prepare in the least. But we will see when Clay Thompson comes back and how well he is to come back. And the same thing goes with Durant because there was speculation at the beginning.

of this thing that you may not see him at all. It's obviously not in their best interest to be 100% forthcoming about what the injury status of either of them is. It's one thing for those guys to say, oh, I'll be fine. We'll see if Clay's dragging a leg around and Durant's not in the game, it's a different deal. Yeah, no doubt. But the one thing about Katie, though, is Katie doesn't even need to be 100% to be an upgrade over some of these non-shooters that are on the floor. That's for sure. Katie can just stand in the corner, stand at the wing, and then move like 60% on defense. He's still an upgrade. So like Katie automatically returning, regardless of his condition, is going to be an upgrade for the Warriors. And for Toronto,

that's why again, I'm a little bit more concerned because it's not like, it's not like Kauai Leonard is suddenly going to become a great playmaker. He's an average playmaker. The ball sticks in his hands at times. And he's done a great job compensating, you know, by rebounding the hell out of the ball. he's done a great job drawing files getting to the free throw line. But the playmaking, if he can do a bit more as a playmaker, if he can score a bit more efficiently as well as locking in defensively, that can help close the gap for Toronto when Clay Thompson is back and when Kevin Durant is back. All right, Kev, we got to take a quick break when we come back.

We've got to talk about this NBA draft guide, which was updated again in spectacular fashion this morning. and it's only a little over two weeks away. We'll do that after these words. Today's episode of The Mismatch is brought to you by Capital One. With the Capital One saver card, you can earn 4% cash back on dining and entertainment. That means 4% on checking out that new French restaurant and 4% on bowling with your friends. You'll also earn 2% cash back at grocery stores and 1% on all other purchases.

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For a limited time, get $150 off your purchase when you go to 8Sleep.com slash NBA. That's $150 off and free shipping at E-I-G-H-T-Sleep.com slash NBA. All right, Kev, so the NBA draft guide was updated this morning, and this has nothing to do with the fact that this is a Ringer podcast. I have been an NBA fan who has taken in NBA content and draft content since, God forbid, I mean, I don't know. I mean, since Gavoni started doing all the Draft Express, since the only thing that anybody could go to was like NBA draft.net like 100 years ago, right?

Like, I mean, I, and Chad Ford. And then, like, Chad Ford would do his thing. But, I mean, Chad as well, yep. Chad was awesome. I miss Chad Ford, by the way. I really, really liked. Chad's content and I think the draft universe misses him a bit right now. I love Chad. Good guy. So I say all this with the experience of taking in all this content for so long,

you guys have to be insanely proud of this. Number one, the thing looks unbelievable, this NBA draft guide and the content is just crazy. Anybody that loves the NBA and loves the NBA draft, this is an insane amount of work. I cannot wait. to write my these guys won't suck article and try to get that involved in this deal. Anyway, but now you have got big boards, you've got team needs,

and you've got a full two-round mock draft. I can't tell you how many hours I am going to spend on this thing because I'm the guy that goes and types every one of these names into YouTube, and I try to find interviews that they've done to see kind of what I can gauge on what I think

You know, how the kid comes off when he's talking to people or if he's goofy or if he seems like a kid that's got a really good head on his shoulders. And maybe I'm making too many assumptions by watching him. But, I mean, I even, I remember last year, there I am on a Saturday morning. And I'm watching a AAU game between Wendell Carter and D'Andre Aiton. And I'm like, what is wrong with me? Right? Just watching these two. So I love this stuff and get so involved in it.

All right. I'm going to give you my opinion on this. I think when I saw the rankings, and I mentioned this to you. So we're talking my big board or the mock draft right now? Your big board. All right. And next week will be the week I kill you on these rankings and your big board. For this week.

Yeah, sounds good. For this week, I will just tell you, I found myself looking and thinking, man, there are a lot of guys between like 20 and 40 on many of these lists, like guys that are supposed to be second round guys that I could really see being, like legitimate NBA players, possibly rotation players are good teams. And a lot of them are, I always stand up against ageism when it comes to the NBA draft and say, fine, you can tell me about upside all you want. I like the guys that I know are good at basketball.

And so when I see names like Carson Edwards, Dylan Wendler, Admiral Schofield, Shemori Ponds, these guys going down through here, I sit there and go, man, like, these are going to fall into the category. Now, I don't know if all of them will, but there will inevitably be one of those guys that falls into the category where we go, like, why did everybody pass on that guy? Like we saw him playing college. He played at a big school. He was friggin' awesome in college. And they just picked him apart because if he's old or he's short or he's not this or he's not that. And we get involved in the what a guy can't do more so than what a guy can do.

And in the case, I think there's a lot of talented guys. I think this could be one of those years. Here's what I'll say. That late first round and second round guys that you will maybe not see a dream. Mon level player or a Brogden level player, but maybe close. Maybe close. Like, I think there are a lot of these guys that we know had great college careers that you're going to be able to get in late first, top of the second, maybe even in some

cases, middle of the second round. Yeah. I mean, the thing with this year's draft is everybody talks about how it's a quote unquote weak draft. And I would agree in the sense that there's not a lot of. star power in the lottery. But I do think there are a lot of appealing guys in the lottery and in the mid first round and in the late first round and in the early second round that have a chance to be important role players. I think in regards to what I said earlier, what we talked about

earlier about looking for smart cerebral players, I think there's a lot of guys that fit that criteria that are going to be available later in the first round in the early second round. So I think about a guy like Chuma O'Kiki from Auburn who tore his ACL in the tournament, he's somebody to me that if he falls because of the ACL, that's only going to make him even more of a potential steal. He's a smart player who's a good passer. He can space the floor from three. He can switch defensively. Like, what more do you want? That's what you need in role players in today's league. Guys like Dequan Jeffries, a junior from Tulsa, 6'5 with a near 7 foot wingspan, strong frame. PJ Tucker and he plays like PJ Tucker. He's smart as well. So there's guys out there in this year's

draft class that aren't going to be stars. They're not going to be superstars, but they have a path to becoming very, very important role players. And I think, I think there's a lot of those that are going to be available in this year's draft class. And we're going to look back at it years from now and say, huh, the draft wasn't so bad. It just was a little bit weak up top. Yeah, let me ask you about a couple of guys real quickly because obviously I take in all of the, mock drafts. And there's two that particularly stood out to me that you are a little bit lower on than the collective draft intelligentsia, which I love. I love having your own opinion about this thing, right? I rail about it every year with the group think. Like, I really like Shemori Pons.

I really do. Okay. But I get it. He's 48 on yours. He's second round on every board in America. But if somebody put him up at like 20, all of a sudden, you will see everybody follow suit. It's like, oh, well, now we look at Shorri Ponds more. Now he's up to 20. But you have not obviously been persuaded by that with your particular big board in some of this because I say that on two fronts. Number one, while Tyler Harrow has gone up on board, he went down on yours. and while the kid from Carolina, Kobe White, has now vaulted, I think on Gavoni in there, he was like the seventh friggin' pick in the draft or something.

Like, this guy has flown up these boards, and most everybody's going to follow suit. You still have him outside of the lottery, so you haven't necessarily followed suit with that. And so those two guys in particular, those are big school guys that are a month ago, if we looked at draft boards versus where they are now, have vaulted up, and yet you have not, at least yet, thrown them all the way up into like lottery looking type picks or in White's case, it feels like he's gotten the best draft coverage ever, because, I mean, if he's up to the top 10 in many boards, why have you? I got to admit, like, when it comes to draft stuff, I try not to look at rankings too much because I don't want that to impact.

I read. I read others draft coverage. Like I read a great piece by Gavoni and Schmitz debating R.J. Barrett last week that I thought was really, really terrific. But I try not to look at rankings too much. So with Pons, like, for me, I just look at him. He's no doubt a talented ball handler. There's no doubt about it that he is somebody who can generate space and can become a spark plug for you. I just don't love his shot selection. He's small. I don't love his at-rim finish. I don't love his passing ability, even though he's been, he's gotten better over the years. I don't, I'm not in love with it. So my point being is that he's somebody to me that is going to be a solid score, a solid passer,

and he can be turned out to be a good player. I'm just not willing to invest in him in the 30s or the 20s in the draft. He's somebody I'd rather fall to me in the 40s. If that makes sense, like there's a chance he becomes a good player. It's about value. And I fall in that. NBA talent evaluators have fallen into this too. So I copped to this.

I heard about Pons. An NBA guy had told me about Pons early in the year. There was like a four-game stretch that I went out of my way and watched him. And it was like Xavier, Duke, Villanova, and Marquette. You can go back. It's like a four-game stretch last year that St. John's play did. And the kid went like 33, 31, 44 against one. Marquette. I mean, I'm like, what the hell is going on? Like, why is this guy not? Right. And Duke was a top ranked team. Xavier, I think, was sixth in the country. Villanova might have been the best damn college team ever. You know, and he just, this is his junior year, not this past year. This was two years ago. And so since that stretch, I've been like, this guy, I don't understand why he is not supposed, why he's not ranked higher because ain't nobody going and dropping 33 on Duke and then 44 on Marquette. And it's not like, you know, he's not like,

he was playing with a bunch of other NBA guys. Tell me about the other two, though. White is the most interesting by far. Hero is going to fall into, mark my words, he will be the Nick Stouskis, Luke Knorrhoed, the white guy that goes and shoots 50 for 50 from the three point line at some workout and everybody falls in love with him and next thing you know, he goes in the top 10 or the lottery. So I know the deal with Harrow. He's going to be a workout wonder because he shoots the hell out of the ball. Kobe White, though, I know you say you don't take in. Well, I will tell you, Kevin, though you don't read everybody else, everybody else has

him vaulted very high into this. Oh, yeah. I'm aware of that. Okay. All right. And you're not as hot. No, no, no. Hey, listen, I'm on an island with ponds.

No disrespect to Shammari Ponds. No. Hey, I, I'm the one alone on Ponds. Trust me. I know. Yeah, I know. But Kobe White, why? Why?

Why are you lower, do you think, than the general consensus? I think with Kobe White, the key thing is, and this is the top minus on there is, there's no doubt Kobe White can shoot. He shot 35% from 3 at North Carolina, 80% from the free throw line. He has, you know, pretty good touch on floaters and layups. But I am always weary of guys that I think need to change their shooting mechanics. He has a very low shooting release, and he occasionally got his shot blog, or heavily altered when spotting up at North Carolina,

and especially it was a problem off the dribble. So with Kobe White, he's projected as a guy that you want as an on-ball threat. You want him to be a guy who is creating and generating offense for you. However, I worry about that jumper off the dribble, which is key to activating the rest of his game. Never mind the fact that he is not a great Atram finisher. He is somebody who, again, he's not somebody who elevates much at the rim. So if you're talking about him in the half court offense, if he's not going to be a guy who dribbles, who creates off the dribble for you and shoots the perimeter, if he's not going to be a guy who necessarily gets to the rim for you in the half court, then I'm not sure exactly what he is.

He's going to be a quality player with his speed and his ability to facilitate and his ability to shoot off the catch. But I'm not sure if I see that upside with him that a lot of people see because I'm always nervous about guys that need to change their mechanics. So with Kobe White, maybe if he tweaks that, maybe if he shows that in workouts, I feel a bit more confident with him. But I haven't seen that quite yet to boost him above 15 on my board. Well, as part of the draft guide, I just want to give this little shout out to what I was talking about, how good this thing is. Charch wrote an article that's like posted in the middle of the draft guy that says the draft's best point guard might not be who you think. And in the middle of that article, it says, and he finished at a high rate when he got to the rim, 67%. according to hoop dash math.com.

And I was like, what is hoop dash math? And I didn't even know that this existed. I go and click on it. You want to talk about falling down a wormhole. Next thing I know, I'm like looking up and I'm like, and this goes all the way back. This is incredible. College basketball, play-by-play statistics,

and it's got their percentage and how they finished, like, field goal percentage on two-point jumpers, field goal percentage on a percent of the shots that they took from three. Their three point percentage, their number percentage of assisted threes, like on and on. And I'm like, this is crazy. I have never, I can't believe that this exists for every single college player. So shout out to hoop-dash map. Yeah, hoop dash map.com.

This is a game changer for sure. Yeah, hoop math is a good side. I think in regards to Kobe White, there's no doubt about his potential. I mean, that dude can really create space for himself off the dribble. To me, it's just a matter of finishing those opportunities. And with him, it's like, yeah, he definitely put up good college numbers at the rim, but he doesn't really, he's on a leaper around the rim, gets the shot blocked quite a lot. So it's like the numbers were good in college.

But again, I think he needs to add some of those more crafty layups with both hands off the rim. He needs to improve his floater. There's a lot of things that he needs to get better at, which hopefully he, hopefully he will over the course of time. But yeah, I think with him, there's just a lot more room to go. And I'm a little bit more concerned about because it comes to fundamentals that need to be changed. And I'm always weary about that.

So it's more about me being a little bit more conservative than anything else. I accept your reasoning. And next week we'll go through this draft heavy. Kevin, I cannot wait for the rest of the finals. I will talk to you next Tuesday. I'm excited for it, Chris. Hopefully we get a nice long series. It's been great so far.

Thanks to everybody for listening to another episode of The Mismatch. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, five stars, five stars. It really helps. And we will talk to you next week.