The Ringer NBA Show - The Warriors' Big Spread, LaVar Ball's Premonition, and Harry Giles (Ep. 113)

Episode Date: May 18, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon is joined by CBS Sports columnist Gary Parrish to discuss Jaylen Brown's surprising play in Game 1 of the Eastern Conference finals (5:00), Vegas's big spreads for the Warriors (15:00), Lonzo Ball on the Lakers (19:00), Markelle Fultz's lack of skeptics (25:00), LaVar Ball's premonition in AAU basketball (31:00), Josh Jackson's upside (37:00), De'Aaron Fox's demeanor (41:00), and Harry Giles's NBA chances (48:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me today is my buddy Gary Parris. He's a national columnist for CBSSports.com. Gary! What's up with it? All right, so the over-under, I'm going to start you off with an over-under. LeBron James has the ball at the top of the key. He gets a switch on to Kelly O'Linnick. That play happens 100 times.

LeBron James scores over-under 84 times. I'm going to go over? I can remember columns. being written in recent years and certainly tweets everywhere, every day. Talking about we've seen the best of LeBron James. Like he's still awesome, but like clearly on the decline. And you look up, he's 32 years old, and he's having a postseason unlike any postseason he's ever had.

I mean, it's remarkable a guy with the amount of miles he has on his body. And just like his body in general has never broken down, doesn't seem to be on the decline at all. And while I think we all agree, the Warriors are still the favorite, it's going to be hard picking against that guy with the way he's operating right now. Well, and that moment last night was like totally symbolic of that game. Like, we just can't get any good games out of this. Like you see them, he's like dribbling, but it's just so disrespectful, right?

It's almost like Babe Ruth, like, point. It's like Bay Ruth, like pointing to the left field. He's going to hit one out, right? It's like he's just dribbling around like he's at a playground. and then poor Kelly Olinick, he has no chance, like literally no chance. And frankly, nobody on the Celtics had any chance of stopping him last night. Well, then in the other, the previous series, like he's standing at the three-point line, like spinning the ball around.

Like, it's like all, it's like he's playing with children, but he's not. He's playing with the best basketball players in the world, guys who make $20 million and $25 million. And it looks like he's playing with children. It looks like when I, you know, we have a little, you know, moving around sort of plastic basketball goal in my home because I have a three-year-old. And it looks like me playing against my three-year-old. Like whenever I want to do, like, you know, I let him have fun and get his shots off. But if I want to block him, I can with every single time, if I want to go around him, I can every single time, it looks like LeBron is playing with people that don't, you know, that aren't equipped to be playing with them.

It's like many, many years ago when junior colleges were much more relevant as it relates to elite-level prospects, every once in a while you'd see a legitimate NBA guy, like somebody who was going to be picked in the NBA drafts who was still in junior college, and he was in junior college for strictly academic reasons. And you'd go to watch these guys. The one who comes to mind for me is Quintel Woods. And I went to whatever Mississippi Junior College he was at at the time, to watch him.

So you get this guy who's going to be a top 20 pick in the NBA draft and he's in junior college. And it's like, oh, my guy. Dude. Like, it's so clear he doesn't, the rest of these guys don't belong in the same court with him. That's a little bit what it looks like with LeBron now. Like you're watching, except the other guys do belong on the same court with it. They're NBA players, but he's operating on a different level right now.

Okay. How about, let me play devil's advocate on the whole. This is going to be a sweep. They're going to destroy him. A. Brad Stevens. we both have a tremendous amount of respect for him as a coach. So he will inevitably make some kind of adjustments. I don't know what kind of adjustment he can make on LeBron necessarily,

except to make him see two guys all the time and certainly try to not let Kelly O'Linnick get switched on to him for five straight layups. That would be helpful. But they were 12 of 38 from three. It was kind of Rockets-esque in the sense that, you know, in the next game, if they go chuck up 43s, I could see. Boston being competitive with them in some of these games. I don't know how many games they could win, but I'm not ready to just decide that this one is completely over and a worthless series.

What about you? Yeah, no, same thing. I mean, and like, sometimes we have such short memories. Like, we watch these massive blowouts and we go, oh, wow, what is this team going to do with that team? You know, Houston, in game one against the Spurs, I think is a great example. And then, like, you know, guess who's still playing and who isn't it? And so, listen, if there were any secrets to guarding LeBron,

like it seems like we'd have figured that out, maybe around 2006, 2007, you know, it's 2017. Like, there aren't any secrets about him. He is what he is, unlike anything we've ever seen, I think, in professional basketball. That doesn't mean greatest player of all time. I just don't think we've ever seen anything like him. And so there's not something Brad's going to pick up on last night's tape, you know, this afternoon, that he goes, oh, wow, look what I've found.

But, yeah, they're going to play better. And, you know, I know Cleveland has been unbeatable in this postseason, but they're not unbeatable. You know, they could miss shots at a rate that Boston missed shots last night. And then suddenly, you've got a 1-1 series hit it back to Cleveland. In fact, that won't surprise me at all. So do I think the Celtics are going to advance to the NBA finals? No. I think it's the Cavs probably in four, five, or six.

But does that mean that the series not worth watching that it's time to just fast forward to the finals? No. I think we know where we're going, but it can still be fun or at least interesting trying to get there. Obviously going to touch on both of these series, and then Parrish has a new mock draft. He's going to tell me about all of these college kids and the way the lottery shook out the other night. Speaking of prospects, the number three pick in the draft last year was Jalen Brown. And he's the one that stood out of the Celtics bright spot. last night. He was certainly one of them. Weird scenario where, you know, he played in college.

Team wasn't very good. I don't have the Pack 12 network. It's not like he was on, you know, so I didn't, there's some of these guys that you just don't see that much. I honestly feel that way kind of about Fultz this year that I just didn't get to see him play very much. Give me the story on Jalen Brown. And when he got drafted three, were you surprised, are you surprised at what you saw last night? No, because he was always this kind of talent. I mean, if you saw him in high school, you projected him to be a one-and-done guy, and there were some people at certain times who thought he was the number one prospect in his class. But, you know, I don't believe that there's a West Coast bias or an East Coast bias, rather.

Like you hear that all the time. Oh, it's an East Coast bias. Well, no, not inherently, but it is true. If you live on the East Coast or for you and I in the simple time zone, you don't see those guys as much as you see the other guys. And for a couple of different reasons. One, when you get children, you go to bed at a certain time. Like, I'm in bed by 10.30 every night.

Like, if I'm awake at 11 o'clock, something has, I'm off schedule now. So I don't see the West Coast games, even the college games, as much as they otherwise would. And then secondly, the Tech 12 network's a disaster. They can't get it on direct TV. And so, like, how many households have direct TV, like a whole bunch? And so, like, I pay $260 a month in a direct TV bill. I get basically every channel, but I cannot get the Pact 12 network. And they're even arrogant about it.

Like, I emailed a guy I know who works at the Pact 12 network. You and I were going back and forth. And I said, hey, listen, you know, unsolicited advice. But the truth is like, you've got some really nice players in your league, but we can't ever see them when they're on the Pacti. Pac-12 network, have you ever thought about, and I'm not just asking for me, but just for people in general, would it benefit you as a league to, like, give us password, like create a media password so that we can log on at the very least, pull out the iPad, and watch a late-night game between Oregon and Cow that's on the Pac-12 network.

You know, just so that, you know, if the problem with Pac-12 fans is, you guys never watch us and my response is yeah because I can't maybe that's one way to maybe that's one way to fix it and they were like yeah we thought about that but now we decided against it I'm like really like you don't want the people who write about college basketball you don't want them watching your games like that's weird to me but whatever I'm not going to push it I got to go to bed anyway so I just like you most people didn't see Jaylen Brown in college he played for a team that uh you know was a borderline an NCAA tournament team, and he played in a time zone that doesn't allow the East Coast to

pay attention. It is undeniable that, you know, for these top prospects, if you go to Duke or Kentucky or Carolina or Kansas, we're going to see you way more than if you go to Cal or, you know, more recently Washington like Markle Falls. But the talent stuff was always there. I was surprised he went as high as he did, only because most, you know, mock draft didn't have him going that high. Most draft analysts didn't have him going that high. But Boston tends to keep that front office things pretty close to the vest. And they certainly kept that one. And I think looking back on it now, like a lot of the things Boston has done, particularly making trades with the nets back in 2013, they're happy with the way this thing turned out.

You've known Brad Stevens for a long, long time and covered him while he was the coach at Butler. And last night, everybody just ends up talking about everything else besides the game because the game's sucks. And so it's like, what can Boston do? And I started to see the Gordon Hayward conversation comes up again. And one of the things is he's known Gordon Hayward forever. Obviously Hayward and him have this great relationship, played for him at Butler, yada, yada, yada. So could they go and get him in the off season? That that's going to be the big play. That yeah, they got the number one pick, but they've also got this boatload of cash that they can offer somebody. That seems to be a big target. I've heard Adrian Worsonowski mentioned that

that that could be a big target for them. And so as we're watching it play out last night against Cleveland, we're thinking, okay, how much better can they get? How soon? Do you buy the whole Gordon Hayward is so close to Brad Stevens that he would go there? Like, how much money does he leave on the table by going there? I mean, do you know the number? It's tens of millions of dollars.

And so, like, you know, I'm close with you. But if somebody else offered me $40 million to do another podcast today, I'll be doing another podcast today. You know what I'm saying? Right. And so all of that stuff, it tends to be overvalued. Like, you know, these two people really like each other. Okay, well, great.

But, like, you know what basketball players like best I can tell more than anything else? Tens of millions of dollars. You can count on a couple of hands how many guys leave that kind of money on the table. That's why, though I do understand that there's a very real possibility that Paul George ends up at the L.A. Laker, he's got to. to leave, I think the number's like $50 million on the table if he wants to do that. Not many people leave that kind of money on the table. So do I think it's something Boston will pursue?

Absolutely. Do I think it's possible? Sure. But as is the case, every July, what you'd be doing is asking somebody to leave a whole bunch of money on the table. And they don't usually do that. Yeah, it'll be interesting because now it's more punitive, right? Because they have made it so much more advantageous to stay with

your own team with the new CBA because it used to be in fact it's very rare especially in the smaller markets you know the grizzlies were stood out like a sore thumb in terms of getting guys to resign most guys leave after their second contract or third contract right LeBron did it we just saw Durant do it Horford just did it um you know we've seen uh we've seen a bunch of guys right that have left after you know they'll do their first eight years or whatever, and that's why it makes it so sensational if you got one of those top picks, because you probably get that guy for eight

years. But getting guys to re-up for the third contract has been a little harder for teams. They'll always take the second contract. Because by then, you probably have, you know, in excess of $100 million. So you are leaving money on the table, but

I'm not trying to pretend that there's no difference between a $150 million contract and a $200 million contract. But like, Honestly, how much does your life change? You know, if you have $150 million or two, like, what could you possibly have with $200 million that you can't have with $150 million once you've already got $100 million, you know, put away somewhere? And so I do think then there becomes a quality of life thing that if you really value living in a city like Boston

and you really value being around Brad Stevens, that, you know, in a different scenario, you could, I understand how a guy might make that job. But with Gordon, what also is interesting is that it ain't like he's in a bad situation. You know, this ain't Kevin Love with the Minnesota Timberwood. You know, he's on a team that seems to be on the rise in the West that has some other good, young, intriguing pieces. And so it's not like he's stuck winning 27 games a year and this is miserable. I can't wait to get out of here. He's in a pretty good spot.

It doesn't mean he won't jump, but that's another thing Boston will be dealing with. Not only can Utah give him more money, but like, why are you running from Utah? They've got a guy who seems to be respected as a head coach throughout the league, you know, given everything he's been through, Quinn Snyder, like seems to, you know, put his speed on solid ground now and seems to be one of the bright minds in the league. And then he's got other good pieces around him, like, Utah is a pretty good place to be right now. And that's another thing that makes it difficult to try to get him out of there. Let's get to that other series.

I kind of resent this idea that, you know, we got to. it last night with the let's just fast forward it to the to the finals and in the end it will probably be the Warriors and the cast but I resent it because you know San Antonio was beating their ass bad and and I just I do not believe that if Kauai Leonard doesn't go out of that game and then then you're in a scenario let's just say if they win that game one which I think they would have if Kauai doesn't go down they win that game one you now have taken you've taken the series totally flipped it to where Golden State and they could do it, but they have to beat them four

out of the next six times, three of which will all happen in San Antonio. But I hate that that injury happens so much. I really do. And I don't think it's fair to just say we should just fast forward because I don't think if Kauai goes down, we should have fast forwarded. Like I think the Spurs, I don't know if they could have won the series, but I tell you this, there might have been a game seven in Oracle. This is undeniable.

The series is tied at worst, at worst for the Spurs. The series is tied 1-1 going back to San Antonio. They are not blowing a 23-point lead with Kauai Leonard on the court. I mean, what you know the stat, I'm sure, Greg Popovich with 25-point lead, like, what was it, 318 and 0 all time? Like he never lost. Like that's not an exaggeration. It was like 318 and 0.

He had never lost the game went up by 25. You're telling me suddenly that was going to be the first time? No. Kauai Leonard got hurt and then things just spiral. You watched the game just like I did. And then they had no shot in game two. And Poppe even mentioned that after the game. Like, you know, I felt like my guys didn't believe that they could do this.

And I think that's probably true. They went into that thing, okay, we don't have Kauai. This is not. We just blew a 25-point lead to these guys. Like, we're not winning this one. You know, if we didn't have their attention before, we got it. Now they're going to be focused. And then, you know, game two happened.

Now, if Kauai comes back and can play in game three, like, you know, I don't think that the, I don't need, I haven't even looked at the number on the game, what it would be with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with Kauai in the lineup. But like, it's not crazy to think they could win that game. Yeah, don't ever forget, you know, we were in the third quarter of game one at Oracle and the spurs were, you know, beating the brakes off the warriors. And then don't ever forget the season opener where they did the same thing, except that one, I guess, was, was in San Antonio. And so, you know, I'm with you. I hated that injury, whether it was dirty or not, whatever. I just hate that it happened because it ripped away what could have been a fabulous Western Conference finals. And now it just feels like we are sort of, you know, just going through the games until we get to the NBA finals.

And then the other thing that it does, and this sort of sucks because one of the things I enjoy doing in this time of the year, besides spending time with my family and blah, blah, blah, blah. is watching playoff games. Right. It does. Oh, it's the worst. Well, here's what's going to happen. Here's what could happen.

We could be done with the Western Conference Finals and the Eastern Conference Finals next Tuesday night. And then the NBA finals do not start until the following Thursday, I believe. I think I looked at up earlier today. We could have an eight-day period with no, between the end of the Eastern Conference, Western Conference Finals, and the start of the NBA final.

eight days without playoff basketball. I don't think that's ever happened, like, in the history of the NBA. That's not good for the NBA. It's not good for those of us who like to come home after work and watch the NBA. The number four Saturday that they've got posted right now out in Vegas is five and a half or six for the Warriors. I mean, that's a Kauai is injured line, right? Yeah, yeah, there's no way that's what it is with Kauai Health. I think maybe the Warriors are still favored, but it's more like two or three as opposed to

or six. And so, you know, when you get down to that two and three range, you're talking about basically a coin flip game. And yeah, yeah, it just, yeah, the idea that we could have really had something interesting and it possibly got ripped away because of a foot underneath the player is just a bad deal. Disappointing to say the least. All right, we got to talk about the way the lottery shook out earlier this week and your first mock draft is up at cbspots.com. We'll do that on the other side. Today's NBA show brought to you by Sacks underwear. Guys, your underwear has to work.

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I absolutely love these, and I want you to try Sacks underwear with my special. special limited time deal. Go to the URL, sacksunderware.com slash NBA. You'll get 20% off your first purchase. Go pick up a few pairs. Go to sacks, s a xx, underwear.com slash NBA. That's sacks with two X's for 20% off your first purchase. Go to sacksunderware.com slash NBA. All right, Gary, what's the biggest thing that stood out from the way the ping pong balls came out the other night? Obviously, we know. know that the Celtics got the number one pick, Lakers got number two, Philly got number three. The first thing that ran through your mind when you saw it, when you saw the board come up.

Lonzo was going to be a Laker. I mean, that seems pretty clear at this point. And I honestly think, as weird as this might sound on the surface, I think the Lakers were lucky. Not to keep their pick, obviously fortunate for that. Lucky to not get the number one pick. Lucky to be sitting at number two. And here's why. There's a lot of pressure in Southern California for them to keep.

the LA kid home to keep Lonzo ball, you know, to bring back to Showtime Lakers because he's not Magic Johnson, but he's a big point guard who has incredible vision and can make passes that even guys that we call elite-level point guards in the NBA right now can't make. I'm not saying he's that type of player right now, but these things normal guys don't see and he can make plays normal guys can't make. And so if you're the Lakers and you actually win the lottery, now you've got a problem on your hand to the extent that it's a problem. And the problem is that.

Markele Falls is probably the better prospect. That's what most NBA people tell me. Like if you just put them on a table, you can only take one. I want Markle Falls instead of Lonzo Ball. Not all of them, but most of them. But most Laker fan. And I think you could maybe argue the best things for the Lakers organization is to have Lonzo Ball.

So if you're picking first, now you've got a real thing on your hand. Like, okay, if we prefer Markele Falls, but we really like the idea of Lanzo Ball, what are we doing? Now you don't have to think about that. you know, by the time you, you know, get to hand your card to Adam Silver, Markell Fultz can be off the board. And so it doesn't mean that Lanzo's a no-brainer. You can still look at Josh Jackson, D. Aaron Fox, whatever you want to do. But it just makes it very easy for them to take Lanzo ball

and not feel like they passed on Markelle Fault because now they're not going to be passing on Markele Fault. All right. Let's go through these prospects, especially the ones that are very high. It is, it seems everybody in every mock draft has Fultz going number of one to the Celtics. How did he end up in Washington? Why did he play in Washington? Do you know?

There was a connection there between Raffia Chilios, who was an assistant there, who is now on staff at Yukon and Lorenzo Romar. For all Lorenzo's shortcomings, as an actual basketball coach, and I say this as as I can say it, but like the records speak for themselves. He had two first round picks two years ago and sucked, had Markell Folk's past year and stocked. That's why he's no longer the coach at Washington. Really good high-level recruiter. And so it was a bit of a surprise when Fultz ended up there, but it's not like he's the only

elite-level prospect to ever go there. And so he ends up there and then has no real impact on the wins and losses, which is a little disappointing. But what I found out from talking to NBA scouts, and I'm not sure why this is, because it would bother me, but they don't seem bothered at all by the idea that he didn't win games at Washington. Same thing with, you know, like they weren't concerned with Ben Simmons not winning at LSU.

To me, that would be a little bit of a red flag. Like, why can't you make your team at least relevant if you are so great? But NBA people don't seem concerned with that at all. And like you said, he seems to be on track to be the number one pick in the draft. I'll tell you, one of my great misses when an, in evaluating draft prospects. I used to be the guy that was always like, they didn't even win.

If the guy's so good, why did the team suck? And the one that stands out to me still to this day is Paul George. Because the Fresno team, it was like a 500 basketball team. And they weren't a tournament team. And he didn't even make like first team all conference. And I'm like, what are we talking about here? Right? Like, why?

Like, if he's so awesome, how could, like, it would be impossible. I would think to be one of the five guys in college be that awesome. And it was just a miss. I just missed, right? And, of course, I never saw Fresno games, ever. Right. I just looked at their record and go, you can't be that freaking good if your team sucks that bad. But, of course, he was.

And Paul George, one of the great players in the NBA. I think that's just sort of true across the board in college basketball that no matter how great you are, you can't by yourself make your team great. And there's been recent examples. that. Henry Ellenson, one and done guy, goes to Marquette. Marquette, not very good. You know, DeJante Murray, somebody was playing, like, rotation minutes for the Spurs now in the Western Conference finals, you know, was at Washington with Marquis Chris, who was a rotation player this year for the sun, couldn't make Washington good. Like, you know, Kevin Durant

made Texas good, but they weren't great. Michael Beasley made Kansas State good, but they weren't great. And so it looks like the formula in college basketball is, And I think I've written about this before. If you are a one and done guy, like you know you're only going to spend one year in college, and you have a desire to play in the NCAA tournament, to maybe go to a final four, I don't care how good you are. Do not trick yourself into thinking you can do it by yourself. You hear it from guys all the time.

Ben Simmons, I want to go blaze my own trail. Well, go blaze it right to the bottom of the SEC standings. Or Markell Fault. Like, I want to make Washington into something that has. hasn't been. Well, nope, you can't do that. You're going to make it into one of the worst teams in the in the Pac-12. And so perhaps it's not an indictment of Ben Simmons and Markle Fultz as much as just a reality of college basketball. Unless you've got other good pieces around you, you're not going to win much. Have you ever talked to anybody that doesn't think Fultz is going to be

awesome? You know, to the degrees of which he will be effective at the NBA level, that's certainly up for debate. Everybody loves him as a prospect. I've never heard anybody say, I don't see it with Markel's fault. But nobody says that. It's not like LeBron James. I remember when LeBron was coming out of high school, and you literally could not find one person, not one person on the planet to say that he was overhyped. I mean, nobody. It's the only prospect I've ever heard people talk about that way where they said, you couldn't find anybody to say,

eh, LeBron, nice, but like, come on. On the comfort sports illustrated, I'm not sure he's that. Nobody ever talked about LeBron like that. It was like, oh, yeah, he's great, and he's going to be great, and he's going to be great immediately. And people do not talk about folks like that. But my point is, nobody – I've never heard anybody say, you know what? Pulse is okay, but, like, are we sure he's even, you know, good enough with the ball or a reliable enough shooter or, you know, a good enough kid? There really are no skeptics about him as a prospect.

Now, and now you get to the NBA and you see what he becomes, right? Sometimes guys hit, sometimes guys miss, but he is, I guess this is the best way to put it. He is the elite prospect without an obvious question mark. When people talk about Lanzo Ball, there are concerns about his lack of athleticism for the position. Not that he's a bad athlete, but he's not a DeAren Fox athlete, as we saw in the NCAA tournament. When people talk about, I don't know, Jason Tatum, does he show? it well enough from the perimeter. When people talk about DeAren's Fox, can he make a three-point shot? With Falk, there's really not this obvious flaw that is going to have to be overcome.

If he continues to develop in all of the ways that he's already developed, he projects as an all-star-level guy, and he could be great. And I think that's among the reasons you see him basically at the top of every mock draft. He's not perfect, but he does not have an obvious problem. the first guy to write about LeVar Ball, who has now become virtually a household name among sports fans. Tell me how you first ran up on him. I was out in Vegas

and you're just looking for stories on the AAU circuit. I'm not interested in going out and writing about you know, team Penny, you know, beat the, you know, the, you know, the Chicago, you know, AAU team from Chicago

68, 64 and a quarterfinal game of the Fab 48, like, who cares? And so you just looking for anything that's interesting. Somebody said, well, hey, have you went and watched the big ballers play? I'm like, why are you talking about big ballers? Because, like, typically these AAU programs that you hear about, they're like all connected to shoe companies and also agents, but mostly shoe companies, officially shoe companies,

unofficially agents. But they're all, like, they're branded and you know who they are. You know, it's the Atlanta Celtics and the Team Penny and blah, blah, blah. And so, I was like, what do you mean, big ballers? and they said, well, this is a big baller's team. You know, they got a point guard who's going to go to UCLA. Mom and dad coached the team. And I'm like, really?

Who are they affiliated with? Nobody. Like, not a Nike team? No. Not an Adidas team? No. Well, where do they play? Just basically in California and here in Vegas.

So they, like, don't ever go to Peach Jam? No. They don't ever go to the big tournaments in New York? No. I'm like, well, this seems interesting. From a distance, this is all I knew. Mom and dad, husband and wife, mixed race couple, three kids all playing together on the same team,

and they just get up and down the court and jack three points. I said, okay, I'm going to go watch this. And I watch it. And really the first thing that stands out is, like, you see Lonzo. But the more amazing thing was the little kid, Lamello, who's not little anymore, but when I met him, he was like 5 foot 5. All right, and he's playing 17 and under basketball. He's like 5 foot 5 and, I don't know, maybe 12 years old, 13 years old.

And just out there killing, like 40 points, 45 points, They're just bombing on people. And it's like you're watching somebody who looks like a kid because he has a kid, you know, playing against high school guys and just killing them. And I'm not going to pretend that this team was good enough to like go win the tournament. They weren't. But they were good enough to compete and win some games. And so afterwards, I was like, okay, I'm going to go talk to the father.

I had never heard of LaVar Ball, had never met LaVar Ball. Nobody had ever told me anything about LaVar Ball. You have to understand nobody had ever written about them on a national level at this point. And so I go and I probably spend about 25 minutes with LeVar. And I remember leaving that interview session and like my buddy Matt Norlander who works with me at CBS Sports. He was like, so how about going? I was like, he's amazing. And he was like, what do you mean?

I was like, I never interviewed anybody like that before. Like he gave like, you know, really when you talk to somebody, you're really just hoping they give you a handful of things you could use, quote, something that's interesting. And honestly, most times they don't. I was like, this guy gave, I could write for days about this guy. Like, he said so much outlandish stuff. And it's a lot of the stuff that he started saying this year. And it was like national headline. I'm like, yeah, he told me that three years ago.

And so I was just blown away by the family and by LeVar specifically. Because the things he was saying now are all the things he was saying back then. And so I wrote about them and then I kept in touch with him. But I can't tell you that I ever knew that this was going to turn into this. I mean, LeVar Ball, and I was thinking about this last night as he was on with Colin Coward yesterday and made national headlines again. Like, have we ever even known a prospect's father to this extent? Like, I understand, like, if a prospect's father is a famous father. But, like, I mean, do anybody know Kevin Durant?

You know what I thought about this, too? The only parent that I can really remember, and, of course, he just faded back. into the woodwork was Richard Williams, the sisters, right, Venus and Serena. And obviously, that's not basketball. But Richard Williams was very brash, and he was always on the scene. And then, like, you haven't heard about Richard Williams in a decade, right? They became their own women, and they grew up. And maybe that will be the plight of Lonzo, right, that he's going to grow up and be his own man.

And I don't know, he's still got too little ones. so he may have a run here for a while. Yeah, LeVar has been around for a while, but what I found most interesting was he did everything his way. It really all leads up to exactly what you're watching right now, because he was very simple in his approach and practical in his approach. So you would ask him, so why doesn't Lonzo play with the Compton Magic, which is the big AAU team in Southern California?

He said, because I wanted my kids to play together. And I was like, and so one of the first things you learned is they had always played together, Lamello, LeAngelo, and Lonso, even though the ages are different. I think Lanzo was one year older than Leangelo, and Leangelo was three years older than Lamello, something like that. So there's a massive gap. Like when Lanzo is 12, Leangelo, I mean, Lamello's like seven, all right? But they didn't want to be one of these families where mom was off with Lanzo,

and Leangelo at one gym, you know, 20 minutes this way, and dad was off with Lamello at another gym, 20 minutes the other way. It's pretty kind of admirable on some level. They wanted to be together as a family. They didn't want to spend every day split up the way so many families do. Like you and I have friends and neighbors who do this. Like, yeah, I got to take little Joey to soccer practice, and my wife's taken, you know, little Julie to cheerleading.

practice. Well, they didn't want to be like that every day. They want to be together this family. The only way to do that is to just make their own team and have all the kids play together. And then once it became clear, Lonzo was great. That's really all you need to lure other players to an AAU team. You say, hey, because we've got this elite level prospect, we can get a shoe company affiliation, then we can recruit other kids to play with them and travel the country. Well, they said, no, we're not interested in travel in the country. Why do we need to travel the country? Like, we're just going to, and why do we need shoe company money? and why do we need any of this stuff?

We want our kids to play together, and we want them to just play with their friends. So they grew up in Chino Hill. They never left Chino Hill. Like these days, high school elite-level basketball players, they've got four different high school. There's nothing abnormal about that, and yet they didn't do any of that.

They didn't go, you know, once Lanzo was great, go and say, hey, now it's time to transfer this basketball powerhouse so it can be surrounded by other elite players and we can win a national championship. No, they just kept playing with the kids from their neighborhood. Would the dad scare you off at all? Not at all. Here's my point.

So, like, LeBar was like, and we know what we're going to do? We're going to turn Chino Hills into a state champion. We'll just win a championship in Chino Hill. People were like, why? You can't win a state championship there, but he did it. And then it was like, my kid's going to go. And so they never traveled the summer circuit. Like, you never saw Lanzo Ball out anywhere except for in California or in Los

Vegas. They never traveled the circuit. They never took college visit. Do you know that? Lanzo never went on a college visit anywhere. What? It wasn't like, they ended the recruitment. They said, okay, so North Carolina wants to get involved. Kentucky wants to get involved. Lavares said, we live in Southern California. My kids ain't going all the way across the country. They're going to UCLA. He never went on a visit anyway. So they just did this as simple as possible. My kids are going to go to their neighborhood high school. Then my kids are going to go to UCLA, and then my kids are going to go to the NBA. And play for the Lakers.

And play for the Lakers. I mean, like, I will give LeVar credit. He has said some things I wouldn't have said. He's, I think, handled the launch of the shoe in a bad way that's actually going to cost him. But I will give him credit. I met the guy three, four years ago, and everything he said would happen has happened. Landa, you know, he'd tell me, Gary, you know, Lanzas going to go to UCLA, and they're going to they're going to compete for a national championship.

I'm like, well, who else is going to be there? I don't know. They don't matter who else going to be there. Like, Lonzo's going to be there. And when Lonzo gets there, they're going to be great. Don't matter what else happened before that. So UCLA goes 15 and 17 two years ago. Then Lonzo enrolled, and they're like ranked top five in the country.

You know, like he really did do exactly what his dad said. He was going to do. And now, then Dad says he's going to Lakers, and now he's going to go to Lakers. Like, LeVar has, I'll say this. LeVar's been right about more stuff than he's been wrong. there's something to be sent for that. So everybody, for the most part, has Fultz going one, and then Lonzo Ball going two. At three, then it gets to where, I mean, there's going to be all manner of different players that are listed.

And maybe one and two get kind of dicey. Who knows, right? As time goes on, and the paralysis by analysis takes place, you might see some, Deerrin Fox will jump up there, or you'll hear there'll be some kind of rumor about somebody else possibly getting into the top two spots. But you have Josh Jackson going three. And I think that most there's a consensus that there's the two top guys and then the rest. Of the group that you have next, because I think most talent evaluators will tell you that the top five guys in some order are going to be Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum, and Fox. Right.

Now, you have it going Jackson to the Sixers, Tatum to the sons, Fox to the Kings. Of those three, I know that you're doing it for a mock draft, is Jackson the one you believe in the most? Yes, and that's why I put in there. I don't have any insight into what Philadelphia is going to do, and there are some Sixers fans who say, we have to have a point guard, we've got to take the Aaron Fox. But I don't believe in drafting for position or need in the top line. I never have. Like, that is how you end up missing on Michael Jordan because you say, well, we've got Clyde Drexler.

Why would we take another shooting guard? Well, because he's Michael Jordan and he's going to end up being the best player of all time. That's why you do it. And so I'm just not interested in passing on who I think is the best prospect. Yeah, yeah, right? We need to take a time out. Hey, you suck, right?

Like, I mean, you ain't in the position. You ain't in the position to be passing on people. Like, maybe the Celtics, they would be the one. Right? they would be the one that if they took Jason Tatum and they said, you know what, we got Jalen Brown, we're about to, you know, extend Isaiah Thomas for $25, $35 million. Like, we can't. Like, and we're just in the Easter conference finals.

Like, we can't. Like, we think this guy's an amazing prospect. We don't think the difference is that big. And so, yeah, this is a, we're doing it with need. And that would be okay. To be clear. Oh, I think you can reasonably argue Jason Tatum might be the best prospect in this draft. I've had an NBA scout tell me that.

I don't see it that way, but there are legitimate NBA people who do. But yeah, I hear it all the time. You know, from fans of teams, anytime you posted my draft, they said, you know what we need? I was like, you know, and they're getting ready to say a pallet forward or a big or a point guard or a shooter. And my answer is always, you won 33 games last year. You know what you need awesome players? You didn't need awesome players. Like it doesn't matter where they at.

The difference between being bad and being great in the NBA isn't point guards or shooting guards or wings or stretch forth. It's awesome players. What is the common denominator between the two teams that are about to play in the NBA final? They both have awesome players. And so I'm always trying to just get awesome players. And I think Josh Jackson is the third best prospect in this draft. He's a two-way player, incredible energy. Like, you know, sometimes these top-shelf athletes, what frustrates you with them is they don't play hard,

like they take advantage of their athleticism and just let you can get by on that without playing hard. And then you see the alternative as well. Guys who aren't great athletes, but they just play so damn hard that they can make up for it in some ways. Here we have a top-shelf athlete who plays like crazy. Good size for the position. He's a two-way player. Like, he's going to get your rebounds on the offensive end. he's going to like guard multiple positions on the defensive end.

He was not Kansas's perceived best player this year because Frank Mason was the national player of the year. But you talk to that Kansas staff and they'll tell you privately more so than publicly that there were stretches where Josh Jackson was the most important guy on the court for them. Frank was the leader and Frank was the closer and Frank was the shotmaker. But in terms of just getting stuff done, Josh Jackson was that guy consistent. for them. And I don't think it's a coincidence that when he got suspended for like doing the 100 straight dumb thing since he's been in college for the Big 12 tournament opener, Kansas

suddenly lost that game. They didn't just have a bad night. Josh Jackson wasn't involved in that. Now, if you're looking for a concern there where you might decide to take, you know, Tatum over Jackson or even go, you know what, maybe DeAren Fox isn't the third best prospect, but we've going to go point guard and he's the third best point guard prospect. We're taking DeAren Aaron Fogg. There is the Austin Court stuff with Josh Jackson. There's nothing crazy. Like, he's not accused of sexual assault. But, like, you know, he did kick in a woman's car. You know, like, you know, he did leave from the scene of a hit and run. Like, there's some very, like, obvious, yo, do you make good decision type stuff there with him? But that's something those franchises are going to have to sort out. In terms of pure talent, he's the third guy off the board for me.

I'll tell you this, the Fox kid, I was watching, I tweeted out when I was watching the Combine last weekend and they were doing it on ESPN2. And, you know, they got Reese Davis and Jay Williams and all these guys that are sitting up at a table. And they brought Fox up there. Gary, I was blown away. Like, listening to him on that set, the conversation he was having, he comes off. He's always smiling. He comes off intensely likable. And obviously, listen, I'm a huge fan because I was at the game where he'd just.

destroyed Lonzo, right? Like that game took place in Memphis. And so I saw him score 39 and walked out of that arena going, oh, my God. I mean, I just, I think he's awesome. And I also think the shot can come around. But just watching him in the interviews, I think that these decision makers for the NBA are going to get that kid in the room. And when they walk out afterwards, they're going to be turning to each other going,

How can we not take him? I can see that, certainly, because you're spot on with him. And, you know, the other player in recent years that reminded me of that, when I sat down with him for the first time, I was like, holy crap. I don't feel like I'm talking to an 18-year-old. You know, this young man is super, super impressive. Now, he wasn't picked number one overall because of that. He was picked number one overall because he's an unbelievable talent, but it was Carl Anthony Town. Like when I sat down for like 25 minutes with Carl Anthony Towns when he was in high school, I went, oh, wow.

Like this is this is a young person who doesn't seem like a young person, doesn't speak like a young person. Is it focused on just basketball like so many young people? Like when you spend your life, which is like my career, talking to 16, 17, 18 year old kids, like they typically found a certain way. and they, you know, because they're kids. They're no different than I would have sounded at that age. But, like, Carl Anthony Town blew me away. And so, you know, even if all things were equal with him and another prospect, similar to what you're saying here about DeAnon Fox,

like I could always envision Carl Anthony Town getting at a, you know, just at a dinner with front office executives and them going, oh, wow, there's no way we're not taking this kid. So, yeah, I could see that with Fox. I can see him going as high as three for that reason. And also because, yeah, Philadelphia, probably does need a point guard. I know they say they are going to try with Ben Simmons being the primary ball handler,

and maybe it works. But that's not how I envision Ben Simmons playing in the NBA. I'd rather have a more traditional super athletic point guard, and obviously DeAren Fox is that. They already have T.J. McConnell, Bozo. It's funny because I wrote in a previous mock draft, I swear to God, I wrote in a previous mock draft. I was like, you know, the Sixers need point guard help.

And, like, Sixers fans were, like, being serious. They were like, what do you mean we need point guard help? We have T.J. McConnell. Oh, God. I'm like, really? That's what I said. I was like, whoa. Like, T.J. McConnell can't possibly be part of the process.

Like, Joe L. M. Bade, I'm down with that. Ben Simmons. I'm down with that. But, like, the T.J. McConnell thing. Yeah, like, whatever. But the T. He's a fun little story. That's what he is. He's a fun little story.

But if you're trying to do something special, he can't be your, you don't pass on Dearon Foxx because you got T.J. McConnell. I guess I'll put it that way. All right. Let me get to a league monk. I got to ask you about him because you saw him play in high school. And I remember you telling me about him when he was in like 10th grade. Like he's the next sure thing. Back in the day, people were talking about Monk the same way that they talked about, I don't want to go LeBron, but can't miss.

right like this kid is going to be an NBA superstar you would agree everybody thought that about malik monk when he was in high school and and it's kind of gotten i mean he had a devon bookerish maybe season right i think that's fair at kentucky where devon booker didn't and he's going to get drafted higher than devon booker but in retrospect devon booker probably should have gotten drafted higher you're hearing like the jr smith jamal crawford gunner bucket getter type of guy like it when they do the comps. Is that selling Monk short? I think Monk was sold short coming out of high sport again right now. It was weird to me because, you know, I've seen him since he was, you know, 14, 15, 16 years old. And every time I was in the gym, it was like, oh, like that guy's

going to be special because he did all of the things that you need to be special. Like he could put it on the floor, not a point guard, but he could put it on the floor, he could create a shot, he could make a shot and then like he would like go to YouTube and just look at some of the dunks from those AAU events when he was in high school. It was like, what in the world? And so like he dunks like Russell Westbrook, you know, it was a streaky shooter but a reliable shooter.

Like it was all there. And then for some reason coming out of high school, it was like he was there. Nobody ever said he stuck, but it was like he wasn't talked about the way some of these other guys were talked about. And then he gets to Kentucky. And what is he? He leading score on an elite team, SEC champion.

a shot about 40% from three-point range, like would go out and get 40 plus points, like on big stages, specifically against North Carolina. And now even, you know, people still look at him and go, yeah,

you know, it could be a nice, you know, quick score off the bench or like a great score on a bad, nobody thinks of him as a future all-star. And I'm not promising you that he's going to be. I don't know,

but like all the stuff's there. Like, I know, he's caught a street. streaky shooter, but he's not what people traditionally call streaky shooters. What people traditionally call streaky shooters are guys who, you know, might go five of seven in a stretch, but then also go one of 11 after that, and they settle in somewhere around a 33, 34% shooter.

In other words, they're not consistently good, but man, they can get great in spots. Well, he can obviously get great in spots, but he's shot up about 40% in three-point rank. Like, he's a good three-point shooter. still a super athlete. Can you put his chin on the rim, all that stuff? Good size for the position. The only thing that concerns me, and John could never get him to do this consistently,

is that he just didn't want to do anything except shoot. And that's, you know, some of a coach is going to have to tap into that and sit him down and say, you're an unbelievable athlete. Go be athletic. Like, you know, sometimes guys shoot, you know, a majority of their shots from the perimeter because they can't do it. anything else. Like, that's what they're on the court to do. Like, Cal Corver's on the court

to take shots from the perimeter. He's not on the court to do much else. Well, Malik, more than half of this, the Philgo attempts are three-point shot, fairly rebounded, barely passed. Well, like, okay, you're an unbelievable athlete who can put the ball on the floor. Why don't you get to the free throw line more often? You're an unbelievable athlete who can out-jump everybody on the court. Why don't you rebound better from the guard position? And so those numbers aren't there and those concerning, but I think that's nothing more than a mindset thing. There's nothing physically that's going to prevent him from being a guy who gets to the free throw line plenty of times in an NBA game who can rebound from the guard position

because he's a, you know, how does Russell Westbrook go get, you know, 11 rebounds again? He just says, I'm going to go get him. I can outjump everybody and better athletes than everybody. I'm just going to go get them. Now, that is a talent having that mindset, but if you can tap into that with Malik, I mean, then you've got something special. So what I would love to, love for you. to have seen from him at Kentucky as somebody who still took three-pointers at a certain rate, but also got to the free throw line more also rebounded more. But the only thing stopping him from doing those things is the mindset. And if you can tap into that at all, then you've got a guy who could be an all-star.

And that's why I have him as a top six pick. I've got him going to Orlando in that spot. You know, the magic, I think they shot like 32, 33 percent from three-point range last year. So they could use a shooter. And again, I don't think he's just a streaky shooter. I think he's a really good three-point shooter with good size and great athleticism. And when you've got those things, you've got the stuff that you need to maybe be special. All right, so you've got Jonathan Isaac going seven to the Timberwell as a kid from Florida State.

You've got Dennis Smith Jr. from NC State going eight to the Knicks. Does the drop-off happen there? In your mind, where is the drop-off if we're talking about? Because the next one's Laurie Marketing and then Justin Jackson after that. I don't think I have never heard anybody say, while those guys can be totally legitimate NBA players, possibly starters on good teams in the future, nobody thinks those guys are going to be big, big stars or have a chance to. Does the, in your mind, and there will inevitably be somebody that's drafted later that becomes a huge star, it always happens.

But we're doing this looking into the draft. Where does the drop off happen? Do you look at it and say, you know, you've got Fox, then Monk, then Isaac, than Dennis Smith. You know, does it break off at eight in your mind? At what point would you think, damn, man, if we would have just been one spot higher? I think that's exactly where it is. I think it's an eight player draft.

And then there's a gap. And just like you said, there is going to be somebody drafted outside of the top eight who turns into an all-star. Like it might be OG Anobie, the kid from Indiana who suffered the knee injury. it could end up being Jared Allen, the one and done player from Texas. It could end up being Harry Giles if he ever gets any of the explosiveness back that he once had. But I think the top eight players that I have going in the top eight right now, I'm not pretending they're going to go in that exact order.

I think they could go in like a million different orders. I don't think Fultz goes any lower than two. I don't think Lanzo goes, I think Fault and Lanzo go one, two, in some order. Then I think the next six almost could go in pretty much any order, but it's going to be those eight guys. Unless somebody in that top eight just falls in love with, I don't know, Marketing or Zach Collins or Justin Patton or something like that, I think the top eight guys are the top eight guys. Yeah, I think that's where, you know, if we're group and players, that's where. where the next group start after eight. Well, that's good news for Nick's fans.

I do have to ask you about Harry Giles, who you mentioned. Harry Jiles was the number one recruit, right? And there's been a pretty great track record over many years of the kid that has been described as the best player in his class, more often than not, totally panning out. I mean, just a nothing season at Duke, right? And he didn't get to play, and he got hurt. and he's had, you know, a couple now, he's had a couple of knees that have given him problems.

The measurables were not real good at the combine, but once upon a time, and you even mentioned this in the mock, when you went and saw Harry Giles or anybody for that matter, people thought this guy was like Chris Weber. And so now he becomes this incredibly intriguing prospect because he was once considered the best of all of these kids. and now it looks like somebody's just going to, you know, at some point they're going to weigh the risk and reward and just decide, hell, we got to take him. Like, we can't let him fall because he's a better prospect than these other kids that we're going to be choosing from. Tell me about Giles and what you think. Well, I understand. Like, you know, right now there seems to be, like we've talked about, the majority of NBA people prefer Markell Fultz over everybody else in this draft.

But there's at least a conversation. Like, you know, is it Fultz? Is it Ball? Is it Jackson? is it Tatum. Understand that two years ago there was no debate. We would talk about who's the second best prospect in this class, or the third best or the fourth best.

But everybody understood the best prospect was Harry Dial. And when you talk to people, I'm not old enough. I mean, I'm obviously old enough to have remembered Chris Weber, but I didn't cover the sport back then. So I didn't see Chris Weber in high school. But when you talk to guys who were old enough, coaches, who were around, when Chris Weber was a recruit, when you talk to Tom Izzo,

he would say, yeah, you watch this kid. He reminds me of Chris Weber when Chris Weber was the same age. I mean, he was not only projecting as a one-and-done guy, but a one-and-done guy, number one overall pick, and future All-Star. He was supposed to be Chris Weber. And then it's just injury after injury, after injury. And you're right. It's not even that he played poorly at Duke this year.

He didn't play. Right. They couldn't get him on the court. I mean, that was the problem. I mean, go look at his minutes' play. even when he was so-called healthy, he wasn't any good, so bad that they could not put him on the court in real meaningful situation. Like, I can't remember what he played against South Carolina in the NCAA tournament. But, like, you agree with me that there's nothing more important than a NCAA tournament game, right?

I mean, it's high stakes. It's win or go home. And so in that game, you've got to play the players you can play. We played nine minutes. Play nine minutes in a must-win game for Duke, Harry Giles, the one-time number one recruit in the class of, I guess it was 2016. But is that Coach K. I guess we could do the whole, well, Coach K's going to play who gives him the best chance at winning. Or is that Coach K saying, hey, man, you've got to come back another year. I'm not rolling you out there to showcase.

No, you know why? Because I think they knew he had to go. And I think he knew he had to go. Like, you can't come back and suck again next year. That is the biggest sin in college basketball, and it's why Scowelibisier left after one year at Kentucky, even though he didn't play well at Kentucky. If you are an elite-level recruit and you suck in one year, like your freshman year, they'll chalk that up to a lot of different things. But Kelly Umbre wasn't good in that one year at Kansas had to turn pro. Josh Selby wasn't good in that one year at Kansas had to turn pro.

And here's because here's the deal. If you aren't good in one year, there are people. who will go, hey, listen, I saw him at Hoops Summit, I saw him in the McDonald's game, I saw him, you know, throughout high school, he's a special talent, just bad fit, got caught in the numbers game, didn't get comfortable, join the team late, blah, blah, blah. If you come back and you're bad again, now you're done. If you're bad for one year, we'll figure out ways to rationalize how that's not really what you are.

But if you're bad two years in a row, then you're just down, and now you're undraftable. And so, no, I don't think Kay was trying to hold him back. because there was never going to be any holding back. He was leaving after one year because right now somebody, yeah, somebody's still going to take a flyer on him. But if he came back next year and was a bit player again, then it's like he's off the board. Like there's no getting picked anywhere. You know who it reminds me of, Gary, is Bill Walker that played at Kansas State. We're never the same.

No, if you go back, anybody can do this. Go type in Bill Walker High School on, on your. YouTube, it's like you're watching frigging Kevin Garnett. Like he is I mean, it's ridiculous, totally ridiculous. And Bill Walker, the same team in that class with Derek

Rose, Eric Gordon. Like, I can remember being at Sonny McHaro's ABCD camp up in the Jersey right across the river from New York City. And, I mean, you've got all these big timers there, right? It's Kevin Love, it's Derek Rose, it's Eric Gordon, it's OJ Mayo, and

the MVP of the event. was Bill Walker. Oh, listen, anybody can type this in in YouTube. It's like you're watching the second coming of Garnett or something. The kid is like, he spikes on everyone. He just looks so much better than everyone. And I worry that that's kind of, and Bill Walker, he had an NBA career, a very short one, but he was so talented that he still like, you know, made money playing in the NBA.

And I do wonder if that's the plight of Giles. That's what kind of, just reminds him. me of the same thing where his talent might be so overwhelming that he's going to be a roster player for some time and have a career, but it's never going to be what it could have been. That's what I would bet on now. He'll have a career, maybe not a long one, but you'll be, you'll be able to go to his Wikipedia page 10 years from now, and it will show that he played an NBA game, but I don't know if he's ever going to be what he was supposed to be. I work with Danny Granger at CBS Sports, and he's a guy who had multiple knee surgeries

and what Danny will tell you, and I don't think this is a unique opinion to Danny, but anybody who's been cut on enough times, like even if they're minor surgeries, and with Harry Giles, by the way, so people understand it, it's multiple ACL and then other minor surgeries. But like Danny said, you know, like even if they're minor surgeries, if it's three or if they, every one of them takes something out of it. They just do. And you find out that you just not what you were. And like, that's ultimately what happened to Danny.

It was like, I just can't, I can still play, but I'll never be what I was. I can't do it anymore. And it's not because I'm too old. It's because I had to take anesthesia and have a knee procedure done. And, I mean, it's heartbreaking is probably too strong a word given that kids are dying of cancer. But, like, I mean, this is somebody who projected to be worth, you know, $100 million, $200 million, and now because of nothing but bad luck before he was able to start cashier. and paycheck, it seems more likely than not that he's never going to be what he was supposed to be

and never going to be able to deposit those kinds of checks. He is Gary Parris. Go check out the mock draft at cbsports.com. You can follow him on Twitter at Gary Parris. You demand. Thanks, Gary. Anytime, brother. Good to talk to you.

All right, man. Hit me up on Twitter. Thanks for listening to the show. At Chris Vernon. Show. One word, Chris Vernon show. Thanks for listening to another ringer NBA show. Go give us a rating and review on iTunes.

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