The Ringer NBA Show - The Warriors’ Win, Durant vs. LeBron, and Playoffs Recap (Ep. 125)

Episode Date: June 13, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss the Cavaliers falling short of beating the Warriors (1:20), Kevin Durant’s and LeBron James’s legacies (11:21), what superteams mean for NBA fandom (21:30), how teams could compete against the Warriors (41:48), and the biggest what-ifs of the playoffs (49:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's show is brought to you by the NBA Awards on TNT, live from New York, on Monday night, June 26th. The NBA Awards show begins at 9 p.m. Eastern and will be hosted by Drake. The awards are officially changing this year. In the past, NBA awards were announced sporadically once the season ended, but for the first time this year, the awards will be presented in person to players and recipients in a brand new NBA award show, live on TNT. The NBA on TNT studio crew of EJ, Kenny, Chuck, and Shaq will have a large presence on the show as well. Well, awards include Kia NBA MVP, coach of the year, rookie of the year, most improved player, defensive player of the year, and much more.

There's also going to be new awards, and the fans are going to have a chance to vote on, Bastio, game winner of the year, dunk of the year, and assist of the year. Remember, don't miss out on the NBA awards on TNT, live from New York, June 26 at 9 p.m. Eastern. Welcome to the Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does almost every Tuesday, Kevin O'Connor. aka Kevin Obama from the ringer.com. You know what, you know what last night means, Kevin.

Blow it up. Blot up. We're going to blow up. We're blowing up the calves today. Five games. Five games. That was a dominating series for the Warriors. They're going to have to regroup in Cleveland.

Hey, man. I mean, they're going to have to make some changes. They're not going to have to blow it up. No. They're not going to have to do this. that, but there's going to have to be some changes that they're going to have to make. And that's what I wrote about today on the ringer.com.

Okay, let me first say, but first order of business, if I am the owner of the Cavaliers, Dan Gilbert, is I want to hire an assistant coach that is capable of waking up Tyron Loo during the course of the game. Like, even if it's just a tap or something, because I can only, I can only think that he fell into a coma or some level of deep sleep in that second quarter. I thought everything was going well for the Cavaliers. You know, you want to play from ahead or at least just stick around as long as you can. And that run that the Warriors went on in the second quarter, where he did literally nothing to stop it, was malpractice, in my opinion.

I could not believe he was standing there, as it were, watching that unfold. You know, the one thing that really sticks out to me, Chris, is I'm stunned that they didn't trim me the road. I'm surprised we're in game five and Darren Williams was still playing. Look, look, you know, kind of in defensive tie lute, there's only so much he could do. I mean, like, he's got a bunch of old heads, you know, in the rotation that he's kind of forced to use, right? But, but yeah, look, that second quarter, Darren Williams playing like three minutes, Corby playing four, Richard Jefferson playing four. The thing is, like, what's the alternative?

It's not like LeBron and all these guys can play 48 straight minutes. But against the Warriors, it's tough. Against the Warriors, when that scoring tsunami hits, you have got to stop it. You've got to stop the tide. That thing, the decibel level gets so crazy in Oracle. These guys are front runners. The players are, and they will get on top of you, and they will just, and then it's just bombs away, and things are going the wrong way.

This is the brilliance of, and this is where you can really tell them is, this is the brilliance of Popovich. When you watch him, and it will not be because he didn't try to stop. the train, right? Sometimes, after a bucket or two buckets, or, you know, maybe three buckets, but it's never going to be a massive run before he takes a time out and settles his group down. And maybe they go out there and still get their ass kicked. But at least you did something to try to, right, you stuck your finger in the dam at least. And I just, I don't get it, man. I thought, because the game flipped on that. And I know they fought all the way back, but then they fought all the way

back and ran out at the end, right? They just didn't, they clearly, you know, there was one team that was settled in and was ready to, they could have looked like they could have played 20 more minutes and the calves look done. Well, yeah, I mean, like the Warriors say they're light years ahead for, for a good reason. And because they kind of are in some ways, I still don't think we've seen the warriors at their best. I mean, like for Ty Lou, he's, he's a coach and his, what is it, he's coached one and a half seasons now. I mean, he's like a really young head coach. It's, it's hard to ask too much of him when he's still learning on the job too. I mean, it's just a couple years ago. He was playing. I mean, and he's already back coaching after a couple years in Boston then with the Clippers.

But look, like, I think the Warriors, the series they played, Chris, look, they can be even better. I mean, everybody's talking about how, oh, the Cavaliers, you know, they really did close the gap. The game's three to five. And it's like, yeah, true. But I still don't think the Warriors have fired on all cylinders. I don't think they had a game like that in the finals. They've had moments, sure. They had stretches like that second quarter you're alluding to where they were just dominant.

But I don't think that they've had that for an entire game in this year's finals. And that's the scary part. This team could still get better. Well, that's because they were insistent on playing Zazaa, butchulia some. Yeah, and look, they barely used the death lineup. They didn't go to their Kevin Durant,

Stefan Curry, pick and roll until the second half with game five, there's things that they could have done that they didn't do because I feel like they were saving those things. That's something teams across sports do. Sometimes they save things in the regular season for the playoffs or the championship game, whatever moment that they need to pull something out. That's when they do it. And the Warriors were saving some of that stuff.

And look, they didn't have to make significant game-to-game adjustments to this series. I just feel like in some ways that, the Warriors weren't even going full throttle here. They're playing Patrick McCaw, a rookie for 15 minutes last night. They didn't have to trim their rotation all the way down like they did last year in game six and seven. I know they lost, but the fact is that I feel like that they still could have given more, despite the fact that they won the series in fairly dominant fashion in five games. Well, and they average almost 122 points per game.

That is the fourth, that's the fourth highest scoring ever. and the highest in 50 years. Fifty years. Ninety-seven, the 76ers scored this amount. But the highest since then, so 50 years, they had the highest scoring finals in the last 50 years, averaging almost 122. And then you look at the combined scores of the teams over the course of the series, 236 points per game, which is the second highest ever for the NBA finals. Which is crazy because we think about, you know, I mean, geez, man, all the different eras.

And you remember earlier this year when Russell Westbrook was averaging the triple double and people were saying, oh, yeah, but he's doing it on even less possessions than they used to play way back when. Or you think about some of those teams in the 80s, the Showtime Lakers that were averaging these insane scores every game. It's pretty wild to think that we fast forward to 2017, and this is the second highest scoring finals ever. And it ended in five games, no less. I mean, it was remarkable to watch. Yeah. I think Warriors, sure. I mean, I think there's an argument to be made that they're the greatest team of all time.

Well, they scored almost, listen, one of the games they scored 132, another one they scored 137, and another one they scored 129. They almost had three of the five games. You know, if it weren't for last night falling one point short, they just scored 130 plus in every game, and in three of the five games. 130? Like, what? what is going on here? And so you've got to sit back and think if you're these other teams. Like, I don't think that you can look at them and go,

we've got to find a team that can score 131. You've got to find a team that can hold them down to maybe play them. Your best chance is maybe the one-tens, right? I think we're done with the days of being able to hold them in the 90s or the low hundreds. You just got to try to keep it in the 110s or one-teens to have your chance. Because that's how the Cavs won. I mean, the Cavs won by holding them to 116. Holding them to 116.

I mean, the game's changed. It's a different game today. I mean, like, you mentioned the raw number totals, like, 129 compared to 116 or whatever. And, like, we need to change our perception. Like, instead of saying, oh, they kept it to 80 or whatever, it's like, well, no, they kept it to 100. Because the game's changed. You know, offenses are evolved, and the Warriors are at the front of that. And you got to think about this.

LeBron over the course of the series averaged 33.6, 12 rebounds, and 10 assists. So he averaged a triple double for the finals. And this was shocking to me. I read this this morning. How about this? Now, think about how long he's been in the league. Over any five-game span in his entire career, that is the most points, rebounds, and assists he has had. In any five games.

Wow. We're well over a decade into this guy's career. And over a five-game span, he has never had more total points, rebounds, and assists than he just did against the Golden State Warriors, which is unfathomable. He made a good case for being the goat, man. That's unfathomable. Well, and here's the, you know what? All right, let's get into last night. So he was amazing, clearly.

Kevin Love did not have a good game. Kyrie was still really good. J.R. Smith, they got everything you could have wanted out of J.R. Smith, right? And most people thought their role players aren't going to show up on the road like they did maybe at home. But you got to give J.R. Smith dropped 25 for him, for goodness sakes. And I thought Tristan Thompson actually showed up, right? I mean, the last couple of games, he was way better. Their bench is horrendous.

Absolutely horrendous, Cleveland's. I mean, when they get seven points out of him last night, they got one three from court. and they got four points out of Jefferson, and then the Darren Williams minutes are just like, what is going on here? But their bench is really, really rough. But let me say this on the LeBron stuff. I was all for the whole, you know, listen, you can't count this as a demerit.

One of the things we always do in the, quote, rings culture, is we use it as a demarrent when guys don't win rings. But I've always said, you've got to take and look and say, okay, what were they up against, and what did they do when it mattered most? This is why I would always take Charles Barkley over Carl Malone. When it mattered most, Charles Barkley was getting like 40 and 20 in Western finals games, right? And he was killing it when he had his opportunity. And it just fell short.

Whereas Carl Malone, he came up small, like in a lot of big spots over the course of his career. Well, LeBron came up huge, huge. And I was all like, dude, this is great. We just witnessed greatness for sure. you can't hold this against him. And then he went to the postgame press conference and said he'd never been on a super team. And I was like, you know what? Screw you, man.

Like, you're literally the reason all of this is happening. Literally the reason. If you never go to Miami, we don't even see that. What are you talking about you? There was a fucking concert with a DJ and laser lights. And he's like, not five, not six, not seven. Like, what? Like, that wasn't a super team?

What was this concert about? Like, you had freaking, you had like scrylicks there, like playing for 18,000 people announcing your team. It wasn't even for a game. And that's what, like, I don't know. LeBron's got this way about him where he can just, he can make me turn on him real quick. And we were saying that last night, you know, because the guy, it was a great question. The guy said, does this change your opinion on super teams? And LeBron's like, what?

Like basically like you can't blame me. I've never been on a super team. Like what are we all just get amnesia? What just happened here? Oh man. So today's the wrong day to talk about LeBron to me, Kevin. Chris, you'll be dying over here. Dude.

It's a it is really funny. You know, like seeing that comment like it made me like you know that emoji with like you know, itching the side of your head like, huh, the thinking face. That was me last night when he said that. I'm like, wait a minute, this guy, he's one of, if he's not the reason, he's, he's the biggest reason at least, because you could say, oh, the Celtics formed their super team before LeBron did, but no, no, no, no. LeBron was a guy who left in a free agency, had the big concert, as you said.

Look, I think that's silly common. Hold on now. They traded for Garnett. They traded for Garnett. And they traded for Ray Allen, too. So that was a different thing. I think in terms of the free agent path, for sure. LeBron kind of really kick started this, despite how angry Paul.

Pierce would be to hear that. Look, I think with LeBron, right, he said, I think it was after game four or before game five, sometime between those two games. He was asked about his opinion on that again, and he said, I'll tell you a few years from now. And like, that was a weird thing to say. I just think LeBron, perhaps maybe he has a changed perspective on it. I mean, I don't know. We don't know what's going on in his mind, but maybe after seeing the Warriors team, he does think that maybe it has gone a little bit too far. I don't know. I have no idea.

I'm just throwing it out there. People change their minds. You know what I mean? People change. People go from Democrats to Republican over their lifespan. LeBron might have had a big party, but maybe now he's like, you know what? Super teams aren't cool. Well, maybe a little thought bubble of his head was like, I've never been with anybody that good.

Right? Like that's, all right, come on. Right? Like, I mean, Kevin Durant just latched on. And so I don't want to sound like. Like, I mean, I hate sounding because I'm young. I don't want to sound like the old curmudgeon here, but you got that LeBronthe. They didn't do it back in my day.

No, and then on the other hand, the friggin Nike commercial. And I just, I held my tongue on this last night. I didn't tweet about it, whatever. What in the crap is that, listen, it's brilliant. The people at Nike are brilliant. What are they talking about? Like, who is sitting around, like, wondering if Kevin Durant can do it? Right?

Like, oh, they're like, will he ever, you know, skinny teenager that can't make it in the men's league? Like, what? I mean, I, I hosted. There were some people that question that, Chris. Oh, stop. Like, no, there were. There were people that questioned that. Guy average.

There were people who said, oh, Kevin Durant's too thin. He can't, he can't bench, uh, bench one single rep at the NBA call line. There were people saying that. Sure, it might have been the significant minority. but the fact is that so many of these great players use what the minority haters think as motivation. Oh, God. There were people who said that. Nobody ever said he wouldn't make it.

To the extent that they said, hey, he can't even bench 225, was a reason to take Greg Oden instead of him. Right? Because that was the debate was between number one and number two. Not should Kevin Durant go number two. Nobody was sitting around going, that's a crazy pick. Nobody. Go find somebody that said that taking. Kevin Durant number two is stupid.

I mean, he average a thousand points of game at Texas. He's like, what? I mean, I was at a draft party. No lie. I hosted a draft party. The Grizzlies had the best chance at getting the number one pick that year. There were two blowups at the draft party. ESPN was there, the whole nine.

Two blowups. One of them was Odin and one of them was Durant. And the pick came up number four. That was the year that they ended up getting Mike Conley, which it's so weird to look back because actually Conley would have, it's better off that you got Conley than if you would have drafted Odin and gotten the number one pick that year. Yeah. But I mean, people were so crushed.

Everybody knew that was a two-person draft. But I just don't know. I don't know. Like the critique of him jumping on, you know, being a front runner or jumping on the best team to win his championship, like that didn't, what got silenced about that? Like we all knew a year ago this is what was going to. happen that they were going to beat the crap out of everybody right and so like i don't know watching the commercial about like debate this like he proved everybody wrong like you didn't prove anybody

wrong we all said you were going to kick everybody's ass and you did hey man and if the if the commercial had said kevin deret proves everybody right he should be the number two pick not the number one pick it would be a fun commercial i mean it's theater man it's all about entertainment I resent everybody saying now like, just get over it. You know, the Warriors are smart and super teams are great and blah, blah, blah, right? Like, you got to take this down to a base level, Kevin, and this is why this irritate. It's why this irritates fans. If, you know, if me and you are out there, we're just on a playground, right?

And there's a group of guys that, like, you fist fight every day. We fist fight them. And they just beat the crap out of it. everybody, right? And finally, we've got them down. And you've got one of the guys pinned down and you're beating them up, and I'm beating up the other guy after a long time. And then they get up and they end up beating us anyway. But we were so close to finally beating them up. And then the next day, I go over to the crew that beats everybody up all the time, and then I come back and kick the shit out of you. You're like, wait, what? And that's exactly what happened here.

That's exactly what happened. And so outside of Warriors fans, generally people, are not going to be happy about that, right? You joined the bullies, right? Everybody knew they were the best, and they were the best without you. And so now nobody's going to feel nearly as happy for you as you should. But listen, it's so

hard for me because I think Durant's a great guy. I do. I think he's legitimately a good dude. Once upon a time, because I don't like to, I like Curry, too, honestly. You know, these

are not unlikable guys and these are guys that I am my son is super into basketball now and I like that he's these guys I think they are worthy of being looked up to um they're perfect role models they really are and really on both sides LeBron and Kyrie Irving too those those guys are remarkable thinkers of the game and really work work their hardest and they never embarrass you like you know what I mean for anybody out there let me do I will say this for anybody out there who's kids like have jerseys of these guys you can be proud that you're not going to be embarrassed by your kid wearing that guy's jersey, right? Which that's saying something, but I will tell you years ago, you remember when the lockout

was Rudy Gay held this big charity basketball event because the players didn't have anything to do. And I mean, everybody came to it, everybody. And Durant and LeBron both came. And we're talking, it's in a small civic center that holds about, I don't know, 5,000 people, right? And I went to it. And I'll tell you that when you're around, like, and so it was just kind of open, and it wasn't like, it wasn't sanctioned by the NBA, there's no PR people, there's no nothing. You just bought tickets and you could get in. And I was there covering it. And so people could just like walk down to the court after the game or before the game or whatever. And LeBron was there and Durant was there.

But it was the weirdest setting ever. It's almost like you're at a, it's just like a regular gym. And so LeBron, there's like this halo around him. You know how he always wears the headphones and like don't talk to me kind of. He gets off that vibe, like leave me alone vibe because he's, you know, whereas I will tell you, Durant, he walked around that place and it was like damn Ali and Zaire. I mean, there was a mob of kids around him everywhere, and he signed a million autographs and took a million pictures and nobody would even approach LeBron.

Like it was almost like they were scared to. Whereas Durant, and that's always, I've always had that image in my head. head always because it was just one of those is you know stirring the lockout nobody would ever know or see it but i remember thinking god man what an awesome guy and so it pains me that he is the one you know that this is all happening with but it you know i i do i love sports because i love competition and i love the unknown and there's very little of that remaining kevin i don't i don't know why it pains you though man did you see his face last night i mean he was he was feeling ecstasy last night.

Him and Mama Durant. They were on top of the world last night. I don't think there was any pain in his heart or his mind or his families last night. I think they were on top of the world. No, I'm saying I don't like the situation. Yeah. I like competition. And it does not.

I mean, it does not appear like we all knew this was going to happen and then it happened. Yeah. look it's very possible that the next three years the Warriors win like all three titles like that's conceivable right would you agree there Chris

the Warriors went like four in a row I would be surprised if they did not win multiple more titles if those yes if those guys are together for an amount of time that if you told me that Durant

Curry Thompson and Draymond will be on the same team for the next three years I would be shocked if they didn't win at least two. But on the other hand, in some ways, is there also fun in rooting for them to get taken down, whether it's by like LeBron building a rebuilding super team in Cleveland or going to the Lakers or something like that? Or the Celtics, you know, adding more pieces or the rockets making a big move. That's what you're not.

That's what you're missing here, Kevin. Or the Spurs adding Chris Paul? What's up? That's what you're missing, Kevin. That's what I'm saying. This is the hard part. and I hope there's people out there that feel this way. I don't hate them like I should hate them

because I like the people involved. And you have to be hated. People hate the Yankees and people hated the Dallas Cowboys and people hate, right? Like you hate the dominant one. You want to see them fall on your... People hate the Patriots, that's for damn sure. Yeah, they want to see them fall on their face.

Right? The Warriors need a ball deflation scandal. That's what they need. Well, it's just it's hard because the two stars are super likable. The coach is super likable. Even when the owners and the general managers and all those people talk, they don't come off unlikable at all, right?

Like they're all... They're a likable bunch. Yeah, I know. We need them to be real like, you know. Draymond's trying. Draymond Green is trying his damn hardest. He's trying. Zaza's the only one.

Yeah, Zaza's the only one. Zaza Andremont, but other than that, they're not, you know, typically when there's a dominant team like that, you know, you always find the whole root against, right? And anybody, everybody roots against them. I will, I think they are a hard team to root against. That's what I would say. And they are clearly the best team. I think that's fair. I mean, I wrote something, you know, I forget what they, it was Monday, whatever, a couple days ago, just about how I feel like talking to my friends.

in real life or people at the ringer or you know just reading message boards i feel like a lot of people have softened on the warriors already in the sense that like at the beginning of the year starting last year on july fourth and through kind of the beginning of the season there was hate like why would they do that why would they why would dran't go join the super team but then over the course of the season particularly during the playoffs it's been kind of well hey we get it we get to adapt we get to get used to this and you know enjoy it in the way we can because look we love a lot of these players and i get the sense that people have softened the the Warriors and look it could turn around the other way Chris people could soon hate them even more I

mean after if we get another year of this I feel like maybe there could be some growing resentment against the Warriors and you'll get the hate you desire but I also don't think it's a bad thing to to like the greatness of their team I don't think it's a bad thing all right let me just say this do you know who's really to blame for all of this who's that you you you and your like-minded people that the only thing that matters in the history of the world is winning a title. There's nothing else that matters because you create, hey, you create this world where Kevin Durant feels like, I have to go do this. Because my, my legacy, my career is incomplete without that ring because Kevin O'Connor says so.

Hey, I'll tell you what, Chris. Obviously, like, we're not going to have like part two of that to me. We already had that on like a March podcast that people should go back and listen to. However, I will add this, Chris. I think, look, when I make that point, I talk about that through the perspective, through a team lens. Like, that's a team goal. And so I think Kevin Durant last time had a very interesting response. I forget the question Dorisberg asked him, but his response was essentially like team related, like how happy he was to be part of a team that did that. I think from a legacy standpoint, I've said this to you before, I don't think a title defines an individual player. It defines a team. It's not an individual player's accolade. It's a

team thing. So look, I think for Kevin Durant, whether or not he won a title on his career, he had a remarkable individual career. He can't control what the Thunder do, the rosters they build. He made his own decision to get that trophy, right? But at the same time, does that really enhance his profile? Does this title make him more of a Hall of Fame or make him more of a great player? I don't think so. I mean, for all the reasons we're talking about.

I'll say this, and I don't know, I know there's going to be some people that disagree, but this is me being totally honest after watching this series. I do not believe they would have won without him. I don't. I do not believe that the Warriors would have won that title without Kevin Durant.

If they would, let's say here. Let's say Harrison Barnes takes the contract, right, and doesn't say, you know, screw this. I'm going to go get my full amount somewhere else. Because they offered him a deal. So let's say Barnes takes it. Let's say Durant stays an OKC. That's what I'm saying. Yes.

They have no other choice. I do not believe that the Warriors would have won the title. I don't. I don't. I'll tell you one thing. It would have been a hell of a lot closer. I think the Cavs would have beaten them if they didn't have Durant. How many games do you think?

I mean, it might have gone long, but I think. Okay, seven, seven. I think that's fair. Right, but I think. Durant was like, Durant bailed them out. Like, when they had stagnant possessions and they weren't able to get a shot, that's where Durant was so important because they could just go to that ISO.

He could create something out of thin air at the end of possessions. Never mind, like, all his defensive efforts, he remarkable defensively, especially in games one and two with some of those block shots he had, his rotations, deflections. He, he's, to me, like, people are saying, No, to Durant, you know, kind of overcome LeBron as the best player. Well, no, he didn't do that. But what he did do is make it pretty damn obvious

that he's the second best player in the league, not Kauai Leonard. Do you believe that? I mean, for all this stuff about he joined on with the team that, you know, was 73 and 9 in last year and probably would have won without him. I, and maybe it's just because he was so awesome. And maybe everybody else would have raised their game if he doesn't exist, right, in this series. but just watching that series, there were many times where I thought,

God, they'd be dead in the water without him. And maybe that's just the way they play now. But he was amazing, Kevin. The guy averaged 35 points a game in these five games. He was remarkable, dude. Right? And he was remarkable. And I think that the Cavs scored so much that they needed Durant's scoring 35 a game.

The Cavs were awesome offensively. They really were. You got to think. I mean, over the course of this series, they had, listen, LeBron averaged 33.6 points and Kyrie averaged 29 points per game. I mean, hell, you just add those up. You got 62 points in the tank before you add anybody else to the mix. I mean, they were great, and it's just not enough.

It's just not. I mean, that's the problem with Cleveland's roster constructs. Like, their best offensive lineups aren't good enough defensively. They had so many missed rotations weren't always getting back under. in transition. Some of that's due to LeBron. Some of that's due to Kyrie, of course. But their complimentary players need to be better two-way players.

And the thing is, is like, I say that. They're old. That's not easy to find. Like, that's hard to put together. Yeah, they're old. And that's, you know, kind of what I wrote about today, Chris, is that, like, this team, I feel like the Warriors, you look at their roster and all the youth they have, mixed with veteran experience.

Patrick McCall played 15 minutes last night. In the next year's finals, he might be a rotation player playing 25. All these young guys that they're investing roster spots into and player development resources into is important, whereas Cleveland hasn't done that. They haven't done that at all. They've only really made two forward-thinking moves in the past couple years. One, drafting Jetty Osmond, who is a drafting Stash prospect, and two, drafting Kay Felder, a point guard. That's about all they've done. And I feel like they might have been better off in the beginning if they have.

had built through the lens of sustainability and had younger guys. And maybe they wouldn't have won the title last year. I don't know. But the fact is that I feel like they would have been built for more long-term success instead of having to deal off first round picks for Mosgoth, first round pick for Kyle Korver or Chating Fry. I feel like those investments perhaps wouldn't have needed to be made. We talked about Kevin Durant.

He did win the MVP. He scored 39 points last night. And before we go on, I got to give you our Captain Morgan moment. of the week. Kevin Durant last night, you can see the Jiff, I put it up on my Twitter feed, if you missed it, it's at Chris Vernon show. It shows him in the goggles, in

the locker room. He smashed, first, there is another video of him smashing two beers together, Kevin. It appears as if he thinks that like, you know, when you see people smash the cans together, he appears to think

that that opens them, right? That if you haven't opened the can that you hit him together and then they like explode? Because he hits two full cans together without opening them. Right? And then he finally opens them, smashes them, takes a sip of the beer, and then spits it out all over the locker room floor. Obviously, not a big fan.

And I will tell you that if that would have been Captain Morgans, he would not have spit that out. That's the Captain Morgans for sure moment of the week. No matter how you live like a captain, Captain Morgans reminds you to pull. Please drink responsibly captain's orders. All right. We've got to take a quick break.

When we come back, we are going to talk about the playoffs as a whole and perceptions. Who changed their perception for the good? Who changed their perception for the bad? And some of the biggest what-ifs that we learned throughout these NBA playoffs. All right, we'll get right back to it. But first of a word from our sponsors, Sacks. I've been telling you about Sacks underwear. The weather is getting warmer.

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For 20% off your first purchase, go to sacksunderware.com slash NBA. All right, Kevin. So the NBA season is over. The Warriors of the Champion, as many suspected. When you take a step back, these playoffs were bad. We agree on that, right? This is a bad playoff. This is a very, very bad playoff season for sure, right?

When I was thinking about who changed my perception the most for the good, the first guys that came in my mind were honestly the Wizards back court with Wall and Beal. And obviously Beal, when I talked about did you come up huge in a huge spot? Like, you know, maybe you lost, but it wasn't because you didn't. you didn't give it everything. And Beal more so probably, especially at the very end of that series against the Celtics, than Wall. Because Wall, he just went full go and then he had nothing left in the fourth quarter.

But overall, I thought he was great in the series. But Brad Beal, I think my perception changed. The other one that came to my mind was honestly Rondo. Because I thought Rondo. I thought he was done. And you go back and look at those first two games. he was one of the best players on that court. Everybody's talking about playoff.

Rondo is back. And who knows it's because he's playing his old team and he knew what was going on against Brad Stevens, whatever. But Rondo looked like he's still a guy at least for that moment in time that you would absolutely want as your point guard in a big playoff series,

which I hadn't thought of... I hadn't thought of him. Listen, after Dallas, I thought he was a corpse. I just thought he was done. You don't want him. He was awesome, Kevin, at the beginning of that series. He only had two games, though, man. I know.

There's a whole season of him looking like garbage still. I know, I know. But he's a big game. Three, three, three, no, it's not even three years. It's more like four years. His last year in Boston was pretty, ugh, too. So, I mean, we've got like three, four straight years of Rano just having a sad, you know, unfortunate steep decline since the torn ACL.

Okay. Other ones that stood out to me, the kid at Atlanta, Torrine Prince. He was nice. A rookie getting real playoff minutes and scoring and playing like he did, I thought, like, you know what I mean? I think they nailed that pick. I think Atlanta nailed that pick with Torreem Prince. So he stood out to me, and then I was trying to think if there's anybody else that got, in my perception change. I mean, listen, in the end, I'll never be able to get out of my head how horrible Hardin was in that elimination game.

I just won't. That's going to take a long time to get over because he, was disgusting when it mattered most. So those would be some ones that were either changed my, all right, for the good, I would say like, you know, the Wizards guys, I was impressed the Rondo thing. How about the Raptors? Should they blow it up?

I'll tell you this. You know who my perception changed for on the bad side? For sure, De Rosen, for sure. Okay. I mean, he had zero in a game against the box. Blow it up! DeRosen, I was actually on a talk show in Toronto last week. And I told him that I would pay Lowry and I would get rid of DeRosen.

I think you can win big with Lowry. I do not think you can win big with DeMar DeRosan. What do they feel about that, just out of curiosity? Because there seems like a lot of split opinions on DeRosan or Lowry. The guys I was talking to seem down with it. Dude, he came up super small, DeRosen did. And I mean, you saw the Cavs when they threw that double at him. He ain't much of a passer.

So, right, if you just decide you're going to trap him, Like, he ain't doing it. He's not splitting your trap, and he's not passing out of it to get some kind of amazing shot. Whereas, you know, right, like, it's death to trap LeBron. You just can't. Because he just looks over you. The playoffs. One for 15 from three.

I mean, cool. Shoot threes in today's NBA. Got to be able to shoot three, so you can't survive. De Rosen, Aldridge, obviously a big step down to perception for me. I mean, when they needed him most, when Kauai went out, come on. Let's get serious. and then the other one would be Harden there at the end of that series.

That was just, we still never got a good reason as to what happened with him. But, I mean, to be that great and to come up that small in a big spot, that was, that's one I won't soon forget about. How about you? Is there anything that super stands out, not including the Warriors of the Cavs,

from these playoffs? I haven't thought a lot about it, Chris, but I'll tell you what. I think Houston series against San Antonio was really illuminating in the sense that I picked them to win in, I think, five against the Spurs and they lost in six. I think their style of play is kind of a picture of the future, right? More teams are going to be playing that way in terms of like layops, free throws, and threes. However, the way the spurs defended them, kind of, I guess, baiting them into mid-range jumpers knowing that they wouldn't take them. maybe that there is some merit to certain moments, certain times that you have to take those shots.

And I'd be curious, like, with Sport View data, you can look at, like, expected points per shot or expected points per possession based on a particular moment in time on the court. I would love to know what their expected points were in moments where, like, let's say Trevor O'Reiser was driving the baseline, and the Spurs were willing to let him take that mid-range jumper, but instead he passed out. to a shooter that they were already not helping off of. I realize it's kind of confusing without a visual, but I would love to know what the points per possession was if he had taken like a runner compared to extending that possession further out

deeper into the shot clock. I don't know. Maybe the numbers still say that the rockets would be better not taking that shot. But like we've seen cavaliers are willing to take that shot, warriors are willing to take that shot depending on the moment and time and the shot clock. And I wonder if maybe the rockets are kind of. kind of at kind of the brink of that Mori Bowl number

with the percentage of shots that they take are layups in three-pointers. Maybe we're at the peak of that? I don't know. Like, I'm just told me. That's what sticks out to me. I don't know if you're going to see a lot more teams play like that, Kevin, honestly. Because the outcomes are just way too random. You know, they are super time.

That can help you, though, too, though. It can. High variance. Like, that could be what wins you a couple games in a playoff series. It can win a couple games, but I wonder if there's a limit to it. That's what I'm saying, right? That in the end, you've got to beat a team four times. And so do you, theirs was so dependent on them knocking down threes.

And they got to do it four times in seven games. And maybe they can. But it is random, right? Like one night, they're going to be 21 for 44, and the next night they're going to be 12 for 44. And the night they're 12 they lose, and the night they're 21, they win. End of story. I'll tell you what, the rockets are going to get better.

Like, they're going to get better as a team because they have positioned themselves. They have movable contracts. They also have young assets from the back end of their roster. They can create max cap space easily. They will have max cap space in, I believe, 2018 or 2019, one of those two years. I think 19. But they have the ability to add and get better. And they're definitely a team to watch out for in terms of adjustments they make to their core in the next

couple years. All right. It's interesting you say that because, do wonder what all these teams are going to do going forward. When you look and you say, you're in the room planning and you're saying, okay, everybody always has to shoot for what it would take to beat the title team, right? And it's clear that Houston's going to play their way, which is outgun. They will look and they will go, we can score 131. Now, most everybody else can't do that. They can't say we could, we're willing to go and run with them. And I think it's a fool's errand for

Houston or anybody else. I don't think that's the way you beat the Warriors. My advice to anybody would be play different. I still did this. I will always think Tyron Lou made a big mistake running with them and he should have slowed it down, pound it into the ground, use the clock, try to get fouls. He's got two of the best isolation scores in the world. So having the ball in their hands with five seconds left to go is not the worst thing. I would try to find defense and I would try to find the way to play opposite of them so that you, could dictate the game as best you could because I don't think that you can try to load up and try to match them because you're just not going to. They got three guys that could score

50 points against you. And I think it's a mistake to do it. Obviously that's got the route Houston's going to go. The rest of these teams, I would look at it and say we need a team that can play the opposite of them and try to make it difficult. Try to dictate a game, drag it into the mud, whatever you want to say. So you, so okay, so like what type of roster construct do you like for like the Pelicans with their twin towers with Anthony Davis and DeMarcus cousins? Is that type of the type of roster that you would like to see teams building? I think that there is going to be, in order to be able to deal with them, you have to be able to make them try to match up with you rather than flip that around. And the way to do that would be yes, to be so talented at positions where you have to destroy them rebrand.

That's the thing. You have to destroy them rebounding. Where it's when they miss shots, you get the rebound, and when you miss shots, you get the rebound. That's been the way these last couple of years teams have made it hard on them. Frankly, it's the reason the team that I'm with the most, the Grizzlies have been a big problem for the Warriors. More so than any other team over the course of the past couple of years. Now, they're not good enough, but they have been a problem for the Warriors. They won two games against them this year.

They were up to one in the series two years ago before Mike Conley had a broken face and Tony Allen blew out his hamstring. But they've been a problem. You have to be tough. You have to be physical. And you've got to be able to smash them on the boards. That would be my opinion. So whatever my team is, that's what I would try to construct to deal with the warriors. It's hard, man.

It's really, really hard to figure out because I think there's a lot of merit to the idea. of you can't match them, but you still do need to be able to match what they can do. By that, I mean, they have so much length on defense, they have so much shooting, that you do need to be able to match those talents. I think the difference is, is like, you do need one of those bigger guys. But the problem is, is there's not a lot of teams that have that guy. You can look at Minnesota. They have Carl Towns.

Maybe he's part of the construct that you need to beat that team. Maybe it's the Pelicans with Anthony Davis, right? You do need that, but those guys are really hard to find. On the other hand, is like, what if you can't get those guys? Well, I tell you, that's the dominant big guys. That's the great one. Then what do you do? That's the great one.

Because, I mean, if you're a Pelicans fan, you just got to pray Benson sells that team, which it's been rumored for a long time, and that you just blow that out and you get some really good management in there. Because if you recall a couple of years ago in the first round, they played the Pelicans, Davis was a monster, an absolute monster against the Warriors. and he's got nothing with him. And of course, I got cousins now. But if you could find some really good management that could put something around Davis,

I do think Davis would be, he could be a massive issue for a Golden State. Yes. And town, same way you said. I do think you have to have an unbelievable big that could, you know, you're talking some of these nights get you 32 and 18 or something like that, right? I do think that's the key. You have to have awesome big guys again. them and somebody that they can't deal with.

I don't know. Because those big men also need to be able to defend the perimeter too. Like they need to be able to defend when the Warriors go small with Dremont at the five and Duran at the four. And those guys are so hard to find. They have to be so good though, Kevin, that what I'm saying is they have to be so good that that's the advantage, that it is actually an advantage, that they are so good that, yes, it might be a little hard on the defensive side, but the benefit is outweighed.

by the fact that they are getting every damn rebound. Because they don't have a lot of, right? Like, that's not their thing. They're not, you've got to be physical and you've got to be able to snatch rebounds against them. That's how Oklahoma City had them dead to rights last year in the Great Forgotten Series that, you know, literally forced all of this to take place the situation we're in.

But they got every frigging rebound. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. And if you remember, remember when Toronto pushed Cleveland to six games? It's because Bismac Bianbo had 500 rebounds in two games. I mean, that's the thing. It's, like, you know, looking back at that OKC Golden State series, why do they blow that lead, though, at the same time?

I mean, Golden State, they kind of ran canter off the floor. It's because Clay Thompson hit, like, fucking 11-3s in game five. What he did? Like, he was unconscious. I don't know, man. I just, I think it needs to be a mix. Like you do need to replicate, not replicate what they do because you can't find a Steph car, you can't find a Kevin Durant, but you need to mirror what they do. But I think there needs to be a tweak to that.

I do think that maybe the one dominant big man or the one high level big man is really the key difference because you do need to have an interior presence. That's where I think that they can be beaten. But the same time, man, it's very, very hard to look around the league and say, okay, what rosters can actually put this type of team together? Like there's not many. Like we mentioned the Pelicans. There's the bucks. There's not a lot of them. Let's be honest.

He ain't beaten them anyway. I'm just trying to talk myself into the best way. You're trying to talk yourself into the Grizzlies hoisting that trophy next year. No, I'm saying they're not like anybody. Anybody's not. I mean, they're trying to sit there and plan like, okay, well, here's the best. That's my opinion of the best way to deal with them to try to make that a slower-paced game. don't try to fight fire with fire.

You know what I mean? If you're playing against the 27 Yankees, don't go out there and try to load up with bats and try to match them offensively, right? You've got to try to find the best pitcher in the world. That's what you've got to try to do. Something that can quell this, and that would be my answer to it.

And you also have to have at least one amazing perimeter defender that can slow down either Durant or Steph. Just make them inefficient. You have to have that. And obviously Cleveland didn't have it. They didn't have it. They couldn't slow either of them down, for that matter.

Last thing, the biggest what-ifs from all this, the two big, obviously Golden State did not play teams full strength, really, until the end. So to me, the two biggest what-ifs that we end with this playoff season are, the first one is the whole, the Boston thing with Rondo. Instead of that series becoming maybe a great, series or Boston losing. Boston ended up going to the Eastern Conference finals and changing a lot

of perception about Brad Stevens, that franchise, everything going forward. Same thing goes with the Bulls, right? Where everything, that could have changed everything for them. They were just a veteran team that didn't give a crap about the regular

season and then they turned it up in the playoffs and who knows what it would have happened if Frondo doesn't get hurt. The other one, and this is the one, and this is the one, like that one is a distant second. Number one by a wide margin is Zaza and, you know, causing Kauai to get hurt. And if Kauai doesn't get hurt, what happens? What is different about that series and what is different as a whole about this whole NBA

playoffs? Because I believe that Spurs, I think the Spurs series would have been better than the Cleveland one. I know we disagree on this. I don't believe in any way that they would have blown a 20-point lead and would have lost game one. And so at that point, Warriors have to beat them,

you know, four out of the next six games, three of which are going to be played in San Antonio. And I think that could have been a classic series, but we'll never know. It's a great what if. Maybe. Maybe we'll get it next year, Chris.

We might. We could. Maybe the spurs will come back even better, more loaded than they are right now. Or they were this past season. Do you think Paul will go there? No, I don't. I think he's staying with the Clippers.

You do? Yeah, I do. It'd be pretty crazy for him to have fought for the Supermax and then him not take advantage of it, right? It was about more than him, though. I mean, it wasn't like he was a negotiation. No, no, no, really, though. You think he's banging on a table if it doesn't help him?

Come on. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Chris Paul is a guy, but I would hope that they went into those negotiations doing things for the good of the long-term health of the league more than just his own self-benefit. I don't think he did it just for himself. I'm sure it was probably a little bit of a factor,

but I think there's a lot more to... Don't tell me about the long-term health of the league because of the cap-smoving shit. Michelle Roberts won that, and that's why Durant is a warrior, and so fine. Yeah, congratulations, players. There was no cab smoothing, and now look what you've done. Do you think he should go to the spurs, Chris?

If you're Chris Paul, would you go to San Antonio? Would you pass up that extra money, year to put yourself in position to win a championship, build a super team. What's my goal? I don't know. I'm asking you, you're Chris Paul. What are you doing? Is Blake's staying?

Yeah, Blake's staying. Okay, then I'd stay. Okay, really? How come? Then I'd stay. You want to lose them the first and second round again? Well, listen, they haven't been healthy for playoffs. Can you rely on Blake to be healthy, though?

I mean, that's a fair question. Of course not. But I mean, I'd still, I'd rather have Blake Griffin in a wheelchair than Aldridge. I mean, what else do I have in San Antonio besides Kauai that I'm in love with? I mean, Aldridge is still good. The answer. We knock him for like not being great, but he's still, he's still, he doesn't stink. I got no use for him.

me and me and she if chay serrano doesn't frame him for a crime before next season starts i'll be surprised well i don't want a part of aldrich i the answer is popovich that's what they's got right yeah i mean they have the best coach in the league best front office one of the best ownerships they have the third best player in basketball and kawai leonard yep they they they're the squirms man and they're going to keep being good for a long time you think they're better set up then if I've got because you know Reddick's you know Reddick's going to be gone

who knows about Austin Rivers whatever but if I build it if I get two more guys to go with me Blake and DeAndre you know if I get two other guys that are great fits and a better bent I mean how well with what cap space

well that's the thing is like San Antonio is built for sustainability and that's like the key thing that's what teams need to build through that's what the cavaliers are going to start thinking about. Spurs and Warriors built through sustainability. You wonder if it would change

if Jerry West takes that gig, you know? Your perception would change. You know what I mean? I would be worried about my future if Doc Rivers is going to remain the GM. He's just is not done right by me, personnel-wise, in my estimation if I'm Paul. I said this on

Bill Simmons podcast. My theory is that Chris Paul will use the Spurs as kind of a negotiation tactic to try to push for a no trade clause with the Clippers. That's my theory. Oh, that's smart. Because if I'm Chris Paul, I would be, I would be fearful that Doc Riversville blow it

out, you know, in a year or two. And then like you're in some, you're in some city on some team that you have no interest playing for. You don't want to move your whole family out there. If I'm Chris Paul, I'm negotiating hard to try to get that no trade. And they can win without Blake. You do wonder if they could just do some kind of a sign and trade with Blake and then, you know, get good return.

And I've still got, if I'm Chris Paul, thinking, and DeAndre to run that pick and roll and I've got the big guy in the middle and now I got a retool on my wings but at least you listen you're not going to be bad you're going to be you're going to be in the playoff mix when you got Paul and the Andre healthy end of story you can put me you and Simmons on the wings and we'll probably be in the playoffs it's just a matter of how good we can be you know I mean if I if I'm Chris Paul I mean like I wrote last week of the ringer and like Bill talked and I talked about on the podcast if I'm Chris Paul if the clippers I'm How can I recruit LeBron here next summer?

If I'm the Lakers, obviously, that's the aim too. Well, if I'm LeBron, if I'm thinking, what am I going to do next? How am I going to build the next team that can take down the Warriors? Whenever LeBron goes, he's probably going to be the team that does take them down if any team does. Moment of honesty. I hate the Clippers. I don't care what happens to him anyway. I appreciate you being real, Chris.

I hope they're, I hope their whole franchise goes to their home. Hey man, I appreciate the realness. Kevin, it's been an unbelievable season. I'm sure we'll be catching up throughout the summer. I know we're going to be doing the NBA show throughout the summer doing special off-season ones at least once a week. So I will catch up with you soon. Thanks, brother.

Chris, it's been amazing doing this with you. It's been a lot of fun. Looking forward to the off-season. It's going to be a fun one. Thanks to everybody that's listened to us throughout the NBA season. Give us a five-star rating and a review on iTunes. Helps us out a lot. And we will talk to you soon.

Thanks.