The Ringer NBA Show - The Wemby Takeover Is on and Gambling Arrests Rock the NBA. Plus, Name That Take and a Big Announcement | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

Justin and Rob are back to talk about the start of this new NBA season, but first they address some news surrounding the podcast. They then welcome their newest cohost, J. Kyle Mann, and begin the show with talk of the arrests of Chauncey Billups and Terry Rozier. Later, they go over their takeaways from the opening nights of the season. And finally: the debut of Name That Take, where Kyle and Rob are given clues and have to guess Justin’s take on a particular subject. Intro: (0:00:00)Podcast News: (7:00)Gambling Arrests: (7:25)Opening Night Thoughts (21:14)Name That Take: (59:30) Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle MannProducers: Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, and Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me as always Rob Mahoney, but not joining us, unfortunately, is Big Waz. I know. As you probably have heard listener out there or if you're criminally online, you've really investigated this fully. Waz is no longer going to be with us. On our podcast, he took another opportunity. We're very excited for him. Definitely. But we're obviously pretty bummed that he's not going to be with us after what? Four years? I know.

It's the end of an era. I mean, we did all. almost, I think, 300 episodes together as the three of us. It's been an incredible run. We're going to miss Waz, zero hard feelings about anything with this situation. We're happy for him. We're just going to miss him, too. The really unfortunate part is right before he took this other opportunity, he named me an honorary black guy.

Did he? Is that on recording somewhere? Do we have proof of that? No, but Isaiah Blakely, our producer, heard it. So I have a witness to it. he was like, yeah, you, you tend not to want to get involved in other, like, group activities with Spotify, reminds me of that. And so I didn't get to take a victory laugh with that honor in mind. Well, I think you just did. So thank you,

Waz, for unfortunately inflating Justin's ego just a little bit more on the way out. But, you know, we have to soldier on, though, Justin. Basketball never stops. So therefore, group chat can never stop. That's right. And we didn't go very far to find a new co-host. I think when they asked us who we would want to replace Waz, Rob, you and I had the same exact response. Oh, yeah. Easily, the go-to answer under these circumstances, if we can't have Waz, if group chat has to change into this new era, we want to do it with our pal J. Kyle Mann, who, if we're all being honest, has been part of the group chat family for a long time. Yes, Kyle, the unofficial fourth chair, the Capadonna of the group chat network is going to be joining us

throughout the year, which means we're going to do a little bit more draft coverage, I think, dotted I think he's going to be obviously helpful in March Madness, but also maybe doing some stuff along the way because Kyle is also, in addition to joining us twice a week now, going to be our draft expert at the ringer as he was last year. As always. That'll be fun. I'm looking forward to all of it.

I'm looking forward to potting with Kyle today. Was is our guy forever, though. It's been such an incredible run with the three of us. I'm going to miss that. I'm also looking forward to everything we got cooking this season and everything we're going to be doing with Kyle. So group chat forever, Justin. That's right.

We'll miss you, why don't we take a little break just so we could break out the little hankies and wipe our tears away and we'll bring in Kyle for the first time. And joining us now, our lovely new co-host. You should be familiar with him by now,

not only because he's been on his pot a lot, but also across many, many other ringer stuff. It's Jay Kyle, man, what's up, Kyle? Do people still do raise the roof? Is that a thing? That was a real big thing when I was playing basketball growing up. It comes and goes.

I'm happy to be here. In all of my private life, I'm just constantly raising the roof. He's got to raise the roof because his ass is so tall. Have you ever been near Rob Mahoney? No, I mean, yeah, very, very happy to be here. Obviously, you know, when they were asking me about doing this, I was like, I know these bozos. So this will be easy.

We'll just, we'll hit the ground run and let's do it. Let's roll. Well, we're thrilled to have you. And I have to say, as far as like significantly upping our awareness of college basketball, Justin, we have gone from negative awareness and knowledge to all of us. having just the luxury of your presence. So in addition to everything, we're going to talk with NBA, you'll be a welcome presence come draft in college time for sure.

Basically a phone book you guys had to jump over to pass. Listen, that's not true. I pretend to know about Yukon until I watch a couple games in the NCAA tournament. And I shame you for that. Rightfully so, I think. When it comes March and Justin decides he wants to talk some trash, I'm like, you know, Mutumbo finger. No, don't go trying to do that.

Since when is talking shit and general knowledge, Like those things are not even in the same wavelength. They don't have anything to do with each other. Well, everybody approach it a different way, as they will. That's fine, whatever your conscience permits. Well, we used to have a ringer tradition. Back in the day when we used to work in the old offices and we'd gather around the table for a meeting,

whenever a new person entered the ringer atmosphere, they would have to give a fun fact about themselves. Oh. Kyle. And you have to be put on the spot, which is why I didn't prep you in advance for this. Kyle, do you have a fun fact about you as a human about your career that you could share with us? Oh, okay.

Well, I'll take this chance to, all right. So last night I was asked, hey, what's the hardest job you've ever had? And I said cutting tobacco, which if you're from where I'm from, I'll say it the way that we say it, cutting tobacco. That is the correct way to say it. So we had an interesting, Kirk Goldsbury was in the studio asking me, what goes into cut tobacco? And I was explaining to them, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, it's been downhill from there in terms of difficulty and labor.

So, yeah, there's, and I think that's just sort of a knock for my rural, you know, that's a point in the bucket for my rural cred, I think. So if you were curious or worried about that, you get that in addition to a fun fact about me, right? Well, now we really feel like elitist. Like, how are we supposed to. Look at him. He's never cut tobacco in his life. This is what I'm saying.

How are we supposed to, like, even compete with your common man bona fide? I know. These are soft. Those have never gone, done manual labor in their life. Not a second. of it unfortunately. Yeah. Well,

unfortunately, things don't get much easier potting with, with Rob Mahoney over there. He's a real, real tough guy. He's a real grinder over.

I do make Kyle look very tough by comparison, so you're welcome. Yeah, yeah. Known for my toughness. Unfortunately, that pales in comparison to the best fun fact

that we ever got, which was from an intern. I think I could share this now because of enough time has passed, where I believe he said some fringe star NFL player

had slept with his girlfriend and stole him from him to which I just like, could not believe it. And he used much harsher terms. It was like, ex-player, fuck my girlfriend. And then left me for him. And I was like, what the fuck is going on right now? That doesn't sound like a fun fact to me. To my ex-girlfriend, the lying tramp.

It's the Billy Madison. Yeah. Jesus Christ. So your fact was more fun than that. So good stuff. Justin, very interesting of you to couch it behind. laundering an intern's fun fact. Like, we all know your past, all know where you've been.

That's true. I have a very tawdry history that unfortunately comes out in the pod more than I'd like. It's true. So badass to talk about your history to say it's tawdry. Yeah, man. So cool and badass. Well, can we turn from our tawdry histories to the NBA's tawdry present, please? We should.

I should mention just up top here that we are going to change our podcasting schedule just slightly this season. We're doing Sunday nights now. So Sunday nights, the pod should be in your feeds for your Monday morning commute, including on the East Coast. And then we'll be going Wednesday days. Used to be Monday Thursdays. Now Sunday Wednesday is only a sleigh adjustment. So you should be used to it.

But, yeah, Rob mentions the big news percolating in the NBA right now. Unfortunately, I couldn't be there live with you guys because I had to leave Core Week because I felt the heat coming around the corner. I had to go and get Chauncey Billups out of here before the FBI crashed down. Unfortunately, I didn't get there in time. But we got the news this morning, Thursday morning that Billups, Terry Rozier, Damon Jones, were all arrested by the FBI in conjunction with what they're describing as Operation Nothing But Bet, which was a multi-part sort of investigation related in quotes to illegal sports betting and rigged poker games. by the mafia. I don't know the last time I heard this much about La Costa Nostra, which wasn't just like me watching an AMC movie by myself. But Rob, this is kind of wild. I expected to some degree because we've heard little drips of this over the course of what, a couple years now.

But to see it all laid out like this is really something. Genuinely striking. I think the Chauncey part of this especially and him getting roped into not just this allegation that he's been involved in these illegal. legal poker games, but we should also say, like, not named in the Terry Rozier indictment, but strongly alluded to as an Oregon resident who was an NBA player from approximately 1997 through 2014 and an NBA coach since 2021. Whoever could this be. The Stadhead filter really gets narrowed way down.

Yeah, when you start to do that. Genuinely shocking stuff. But I have to say, Justin, did you say nothing but bet was the operation name? I think it was just nothing but net. I think it's Operation Nothing But Bet. See, I think that's giving them too much credit. I wish they had gone for the pun. Everything I'm seeing in the news is nothing but net.

I thought you hated puns. Well, in this case, you got to do something. Okay. You know, the bare minimum. I was trying to think, like, what could we have done to improve just the operation parameters? Just the SEO here, really. Like, was Operation Second Apron taken?

Was Operation Slob Wizard off the table? Like, I think there's some deeper cuts we could have gone for it. I think Operation Nothing But Bet is perfect because it is just a slight pun that clearly someone put a lot of effort into, but it isn't all that funny. Honestly, as someone who is an expert in this field, I have to say, I give them five stars for this. Wow. But yeah, this was a little bit of a mess.

So Billups was basically implicated in two separate situations, as Rob alluded to. So there was this poker situation where it seemed like he and Jones were the lure for these, in air quotes, fish in order to get. them to the poker game in order to defraud them with such things as x-ray machines built into tables that read face-down cards straight up roman from romans from ocean's 12 right like unbelievable right isard yeah yeah contact lenses that read premarked cards and secret cameras in card trays Kyle do you have any of these at your home office not yet i mean i'm going to look into it naturally not my spy uh my spy weekly magazine that comes uh i usually thumbed through

that and try to make a tough decision and where to spend my money. But initially, I was going to say, when I heard about this story, initially there were two, Tyler and I were talking about in the home, there were two waves of information initially, obviously, that came out. And the first thing was, you know, their involvement in this card game. And me thinking about it, I was just like, well, you're imagining what, what are the moves ahead here? It's just like, you can naturally make up a story about if you wanted, if you were trying to get out of this, which, you know, obviously you would try to get out of it. You know, I was used as a, as a pawn or in some way. You know, you can naturally see how they would talk about that. But you obviously

are going to leave yourself vulnerable to any shred of information that's going to prove that, as we've seen with the Aspire situation. But with this, the second way that comes out is like, okay, yeah, like there's no, the plausible deniability is kind of cratering at this point. And this, the second allegation, which we should say, like, very specifically lays out this case. There's this March 2023 game in which the Portland Trailblazers are going into it with like more or less their healthy roster. Damon Lillard has been playing. they're about to turn the corner into tanking, and Chauncey Billups,

or sorry, co-conspirator number eight, who is not not Chauncey Billups. He played from 97 to 2004. He certainly did. Tips off somebody that Damian Lillard will not be participating in this game, which allows them to place hefty bets against the Blazers who had won their previous game

against the Jazz. Guess what? They get blown out by the Bulls by 28 points in that game. This is the kind of stuff that goes from, like, oh, he's involved in the card game, as you said, Kyle. like that's the kind of allegation that a coach can come back from. This thing, I don't know that we will see Chonsie Bullups on the sideline ever again.

Yeah, and it also indirectly involves Dame and then with Damon Jones, LeBron, who just seemed to be, you know, like, yeah. And so like it gets pretty messy pretty quickly, but you're right, Rob. I think this is pretty much the case, open, case closed sort of situation here where it's like, yes, you can get away with the poker thing. It ultimately led to people being defrauded, but that's not necessarily an NBA sort of situation. And if anything, I would have expected the NBA to distance themselves from that. But this directly involves a coach, not just a player, giving out information about what they're going to do for a lineup. I have a hard time believing, Kyle, that Chauncey's going to come back for this. Well, yeah, naturally, I don't think he's coming back either.

I mean, the first place your mind goes, though, when you see successful peoples of this like going and making these kinds of decisions, you just wonder why? And the first thing is that, you know, maybe you have financial pressure of some kind to do this, to get yourself involved with this. But I was saying, I was wondering if the, one of the temptations in this, because, you know, you've heard players talk about this is an opportunity to kind of throw a bone to your people or whatever it is, is this just sort of a modern financial vitamin way to sort of get out of? Because we all have seen like the 30 for 30, the broke documentary where they're talking about all the people they're supporting, I'm like, was this just a really tempting way for players to be like,

I can throw you this little bit of information and just not financially have to throw any money to you of my own? That was just one hypothesis I had about like why people would do this when they seem to have a lot of money or competitive spirit, not wanting to die. You know, you're just wondering why. Well, I think the why is a little different for everybody. And we should say like, you know, we're talking around this story. We're cracking some jokes. Like some of it is very dark. I would say the Jante Porter part of it, especially where his gambling debts were so severe

that he was basically like squeezed into participating in the kind of game prop bet tipping part of this whole thing. And I think there are levels to all of this. And clearly, again, like the poker thing is off to the side. Like NBA players are constantly gambling. They are never not gambling in some way, form or fashion, with each other. That stuff is all fine. And so the idea of like falling into a poker mess entirely believable to me, but you would think

any athlete knows, you cannot bring this to the game. You cannot get to the point where you are Terry Rozier checking yourself out with a fake injury so you can move betting money. Like, that's just completely unacceptable to say the very least. Yeah, and I have to wonder, the more and more sports gambling becomes just integrated into what the NBA is doing. It seems like maybe the line just moves back. And something like as simple as Billups giving away his lineup card or who's in or who's out just a couple hours before information that is going to become public in a little bit. Maybe he thinks, oh, that's just a harmless indiscretion, especially if everybody's gambling back and forth with this.

Like, who's ever going to know something about that? I could definitely see that. And that is where something on the margins just becomes more and a more problem for the MPA. Yeah, we should mention, hey, this podcast network very much entwined with a sports gambling company. I don't do a lot of sports gambling ourselves, so this all seems very foreign to me. but like this is very much part of our world now, and I think things tend to, all of the checks and balances,

tend to fray, the more and more this becomes normalized. Yeah, it is baked into the culture and the presentation of the sport. It is on the broadcast. It is not just like on your phone in select states, but you can go in many arenas and place a bet at a kiosk,

which is just a different level of insanity as far as this stuff goes. But yeah, once the players become involved and it was really an inevitability, the question is how fast can you, catch them. How fast can you, like, root out some of these rings? And we are past the point of like, oh, this is Terry Rozier and Jontay Porter with some guys they know. Like, this is organized crime, period. Yeah. And Chauncey Billups, a big, bold-faced name. Obviously, I think he's not front and center

as he used to be in the league, but he was one of the more popular players in the league during his playing days. And he is one of 30 NBA head coaches. And so I think part of the shock of this is just how prominent he is the fact that a coach, not a player, is doing something like this. I also think this comes at a pretty inopportune time, not only for Billups, but also for the Portland Trailblazers. Or maybe opportune if they can upgrade. I don't know.

We'll see. Shout out to Tiago Splitter, interim head coach of the Portland Trailblazers. Stephen Hayes got to give us a follow-up, by the way. And I was going to say, scream Tiago Splitter for the younger people who don't get that reference. But I was going to say, too, and another mistake that Billups made is that he 100%

teed up the inevitable documentary that's coming about this five years from now, where he says let the chips fall where they may. If I were the mixer on that, I would be like, okay, we're going to mix the reverb and have it go up as he says that. And it echoes into a cavernous reverb and then we cut to the next thing. So he's setting up the documentary people for the future, though. So that's a positive, right? Well, it's unfortunate because I was prepared to force upon you guys as I typically do, a positive opinion about the Portland Trailblazers based on their opener last night where they played very well and looked very feisty on the defense event.

and Anthony Edwards comes out like, this is not the type of team I want to play anymore. It's not an easy win because these guys are picking me up full court. This is very hard. Now, he scored 40, but those were very hard 40 I could attest to. And also, the bigger issue here is that a new owner is very much going to be coming in in the next couple of months here. Tom Dundon was actually court side for that game. I presume either probably still in Portland or just has left.

And so I think there has kind of been these suggestions, suspicions that Dundon, considering what he did in the NHL might be prone to clean house and start fresh. He seems to be kind of of the moneyball mindset wants to cut cost when he has to. This just gives him more opportunity to turn the page on Billups. And unfortunately, Joe Cronin, who is tied to Billups now? So you have to wonder the trickle-down effect. Does this create an opening to where if Dunden wants to make changes no matter what happens this season, he has the opportunity to do so.

Oh, I mean, Billups has made that very easy. And it really has kind of ousted himself from this picture. I think the question, like, my mind inevitably goes to some big places. Like, Chauncey Billups is a basketball Hall of Famer. Is he still a basketball Hall of Famer if these allegations are true? Like, it's a weird gray area because it's not like he fixed a game. He did something that the organization was going to do, which is lean into the tank in that 2023 season.

But in tipping people off and in, like, violating this not just unwritten, but legal rule of the sport and the country, has he crossed a line that he cannot come back from in a big picture historical legacy sense? How much precedent do we have for retroactively going in for somebody? Because these are two, this is separate from his playing career. You know, like, I mean, I'm trying to think of examples of guys who have done things to, I mean, I don't know.

Do we have any kind of precedent for someone being taken out of the hall, like on this front? Not in the basketball hall of fame, I don't think. Yeah, I don't think so. He just went in, too, last year. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I do, you know, obviously politically, that would obviously, if he hadn't gone in yet, I think that would be a huge factor. But it'll be interesting to watch what happens with that. Yeah. Well, I guess he's going to let the chips fall and see where they end up here.

All right. Anything else on this FBI sting investigation, Rob? You specifically given your expertise and having potted about task know about? Is this? I mean, this has to be the thing that Damon Jones is now known the most for, right? other than being LeBron's friend, which is probably number one on his bio. That facilitated this whole mess in the first place, apparently. It's just like knowing and hanging out with LeBron and thus when LeBron might or may or may not play in a game.

But before this, I would say it is, yes, being LeBron's teammate, hitting that one game-winning shot against the Wizards and the playoffs, or getting soup thrown at him by J.R. Smith. Like, that was the level for Damon Jones. And now all of a sudden he is, you know, co-conspirator number one in a massive betting ring, that is involving, that is really enmeshing the entire sport, and I imagine we'll be talking about for a very long time.

We didn't even talk about Terry Rozier. Fortunately, I guess, for the Miami Heat, didn't seem like he was going to be big in their plans this season. So nothing probably practically changes on the court. If anything, I think they're probably cheering, maybe raising the roof along with Kyle in order to get him off the books. But he's also implicated in some pretty damning details as well. So I got to say, he played pretty well last night.

I don't know if you guys caught that one. Terry Rozier. Chair Rozier did not, the heat. Oh, I was going to, I was ready to make a fun tech. Well, you said to get along with Kyle, I didn't know what my reading interest in when that was other than he played for Lul. I don't know what the joke is. Oh, right. Sure.

Yeah, I need to remember my own callbacks, I guess. But yeah, I mean, if you got Fontechio, why do you need Terry Rosier, right? This is the thing. Yeah, they did, plus Davian Mitchell. The heat honestly looked very impressive in that game. They looked very competent. Yeah. It was something else.

I think we'll come back to that one. Sure. Let's talk about some of the events on the docket last night. Twelve games in the NBA on the real opening night, as we call it. But the biggest one was, unfortunately, for Cooper Flagg, who had his debut derailed by Victor Webbenyama, looking like an absolute menace. Rob, is that how you used to play on the pickup court? Used to? Well, you've had a lot going on.

You had the pneumonia, you had the wrist. You've really taken out the chin lately. There has been a lot going on. Plus the move. I got to just uproot and restart my entire pickup basketball life here in L.A. So there's a lot happening. But yeah, I would say everything that you saw from Wemby last night is more or less in my bag. So 40 points, 15 rebounds.

Kyle, Anthony Davis was once labeled a unicorn, a guy so special that he was unlike anything that we'd ever seen. And last night, he looked absolutely normal playing against Wemby. I've never I was we were talking with some of the ringer staff one of the fun things about being all here together is we get to sit in a theater like mystery science theater 3000 and sort of watch games together which is I wish we could broadcast it

because there were some really incredible sniping going on between Tyler and Kirk that I would have loved to get out there to the public but I was just trying to think back about like who has sort of thrown Anthony Davis around like that in any capacity I was like Yokic has Dropadooped AD to death in a lot of situations.

I can't remember anyone physically overwhelming him like that. Can you? Especially when AD is jacked like Aaron Donald. He added like 10 pounds of muscle yet again looks huge. And yet he looked just like kind of like a normal sized player in comparison to Wembe. I think not just that. Not just was he bodying him out of the way. But he was targeting.

He was going at Anthony Davis, one of the best defensive players in the world, like he was Reed Shepherd. Like that was the level of targeting. Come on. I'm just saying that's what was happening out there. This is how you welcome me. I'm sorry. I apologize.

But yes, the way he was able to discard AD and take him off the dribble like he was nothing, incredibly alarming stuff that has me like very seriously considering being a monk for a while. Like Justin,

how do you feel that group chat live from Tibet? Is that a thing we could do? Do you think we can get that sponsored so we can make that happen? Yeah, it had to be a sponsorship on that. I have a stat that I'd like to add on to what Rob said. There was, you want to talk about specifically speaking to what Rob was talking about. In this game, I went through and charted this.

Well, the stat, I couldn't help myself. The stat was, the spurs I so 13 times at 1.308 points for possessions, which is crazy. But then in this game, and a lot of that was during a particular stretch. In this game, it's 4845 with 3rd, dallas is up, 3.30 to go. in the first half. And Spurs go on a 13-0 run to in the half. A lot of that was Wimby ISO. It reminded me of Luca going at LeBron. It was some like, it looked like the new robot, like the evolved version of like Ultron coming in and killing his old model or something. It really did. And it just was like if you took, if you were in Photoshop and just did the

control transform and just dragged 80 out, it was like what would happen if AD were like 80% bigger? And then in the to start the second half, they go seven. to three to start the third, and the game was over. And that was like 80, just was flummoxed. He didn't. I think we also, you know, I'm not trying to steer the show here, but I think we, I mean, it does kind of allude to the pressure that this puts on. Cooper is in such a uniquely challenging developmental situation for an 18-year-old,

perceivably on a competitive roster. We've talked a lot about this, but man, oh, man. And the spurs, you know, they were really pouncing on this. They were overplaying dribble handoffs because you could do that kind of shit. when you got Victor Wimonyama behind you. Yeah, I mean, Wembe, we've seen it before, just warping the dimensions of the court where the game just looks different.

Tonight, that was just more pronounced, excuse me, that was more pronounced than I'd seen ever before. And I think the way to kind of bridge these two ideas is that around Wembe, the spurs put a lot of shooting there. The really only non-shooter and air quotes was Stefan Castle, who put it up a couple of times himself

and actually made one and looked dynamic in his own right. We should talk about that. Yeah. Whereas the Mavs with all these power forwards on the court just looked incredibly stodgy. And putting the ball in Flags hand, like, they might just suggest something long term about how special he is. But he looked a little lost in his first game where all that attention on him, castles in his pocket all night. And it just felt like not only did they not know where to go, they just didn't have any zip to what they were doing, because a lot of it just was cramped in the middle with all these guys who were practically sometimes shooters.

Yes. And I think that's going to be the case no matter who they start. Like, if you want to start DeAngelo Russell at point guard, does not change the fundamental problem we're describing. It may make certain things easier for Cooper. And certainly, like, not having Steph Castle in his jersey might be a benefit to him just from jump. But overall, that lift is going to be difficult for him.

And he's also walking that very delicate line of, like, being a rookie on a veteran team where he's playing point guard out of position and trying to defer and set guys up and not try to do too much, but also wanting to prove why he's the number one pick and have a great debut in the way that some other rookies had a great debut last night. It's just a lot to put on him in that moment. And to watch on the other side of the court as Victor Webbenyama is doing increasingly preposterous shit, I don't envy Cooper Flagg in that position, that's for sure.

So around this time last year, like going into Wemby's first or second game, Rob and I talked about, you know, should Wemby be playing more toward the basket, developing that part of it or stepping back with his jumper? And what's funny is a lot of his highlights were with the jumper, obviously the between the legs, whatever the fuck that was, it gets lively into the stepback three. One of the most spectacular things I think I've seen

for someone on a basketball court considering the size and difficulty there. He had like eight plays in this game, Justin, that would be the best play of any other player's season. He had a couple, he had a couple where I literally screamed, oh, I did like a soprano's, oh! Like I stood up and walked around. I couldn't process what I was seeing.

Number one, PJ Washington, why the hell are you jumping at a ball, thing from 18 feet. Let him take that shot. And he goes baseline and does the reverse card or rock the baby. Without jumping. And his toes were touching the ground. Yeah. I just, also like I have a thing too about Wemby, like, do you guys think that the officials are still in the process of like figuring out how to calibrate what? There were a couple like probably goal tens in that game where it's just like he can he can high point shots in a way that like no other player has ever been able to do. And I don't know that I just don't know that they fully adjusted to that.

It makes you think twice. Like there was one earlier in the game where he got called for it. And then the next one, which looked like the same exact play, he didn't get called for it. I think the reps just don't know because they have never seen somebody hit the ball at that apex. But a lot of those plays, the really fancy ones, were the jump shot. And what was funny, though, is it almost seemed like his most success came at the basket. Goldsbury had a stat on this. I saw kicking around online.

Not only were his shots closer in just in terms of distance. but 14 made twos last night most in Wemby's 118 game career. And I think that's the thing there. I think the jumper, because he cannot be contested because he's so goddamn tall, because he's hitting those with such frequency at this point, or at least confidence, that is opening up the drive game. In addition to the space, he's getting from the rest of his teammates. And so at this point, Rob, like the Wembe MVP thing has been kicking around as a possibility.

I think it's not a possibility anymore. I think it's a likelihood. I mean, it certainly seems like it could. be in the air all season. We'll see how, I mean, Luca had an amazing opening night too. We have yet to hear from Nicola Yokic. There's a lot still in play. But if Wemby is this guy,

and he is that interior focus, and I think most importantly, as you said, Kyle, guys like PJ Washington are biting on those fakes. There's going to be such a fascinating push and pull with that for defenders. I'm like, what will be the book on defending Wembe? What is the one good game that someone will have, that will get out, that other teams and players will try to emulate? and I wonder if it will be

do not jump on anything ever you're not going to contest it anyway and so you're just going to have to live with last night he looked like Dirk on Midrangers like he was hitting everything and so it is a compulsion to jump at shots like that but you're just going to have to live with something

and you cannot be living with him just having dunk after dunk after dunk I saw like last season he was already dunking a lot it was like over two twoish a game or so he had seven dunks last night like that is untenable for any team playing the spurs. And so you have to give up something. You're not going to give up that.

His roller gravity is unlike anything I've ever seen. You could watch Dallas's defense. Like, it looked like a big person sat on a beanbag. The way it warped, like whenever he cut to the basket, you just saw their defense just go, oh, no, because everybody was like, we got to at least try to contest the pass. I don't know. But also, another interesting thing about him that I was seen in this game is he can create bad shots that other people just cannot, cannot. even fathom because he had a play. I think AD was with him step for step. And he did like a pro hop. Like, I don't you know, he just took a huge step into the lane and still had the ball above his head. And Davis still couldn't get to it. It was kind of a bad shot. He didn't make it. But, you know, he's

just kind of figuring out how to how and where to take those. But man, when the jumper's going in, he looks like God. And just if you're if you're talking about him as an MVP, I think it's just a matter of like how how sustainable is that how efficient is he going to be able to continue to be uh because like in the back court defensively dallas doesn't really present the same thing it's a lot of guys who are going to sort of try to shatter you block your shot kind of thing they're not trying to like dig and steal on the ball as much it'll be just interesting to watch him against the team like okay c with their roster build versus uh because the defensive side is where he separates himself from a yoke it's from the other guys in the it's just how how high can his uh how high can he

sustain that offensive efficiency if he's going to aim for MVP. You know what it was for me, Justin? The MVP play for me. Look, there's all the spectacular, whoa, shit that's happening that is making you lunge for the remote to rewind. He had a play with AD where he was on the, at the three point line, walked AD to the block

and just did bump, bump, baby hook like he's Al Jefferson. And I'm like, if he's doing that to Anthony Davis, that's scoring stability, right? Like, that's not matchup, that's not situation. That is something you can manufacture anytime you want. And if that's just something he can physically do now against one of the best defensive players in the world, that's how you become

the MVP of the league. Yeah, I want to say you can't guard him with the center anymore, but then if he's walking AD into the basket, how do you guard him with the big wing? And can he shoot over the top? You just live with his jumper, but then if he's making jumpers, how do you live with the jumper? It's an impossible task at this point. So you're just hoping that you can maybe shut off some of the other guys around there. We should probably talk about some of those guys, first and foremost the Fawn Castle, who reigning rookie of the year looked like just energized in a way that he played with a lot of activity and energy last year, just looked like he was completely unleashed in this lineup. He just has definitely a different player than a men Thompson, Kyle, but like he has

that same effect where he's just doing so many positive things that as we look ahead with the spurs and we use the trade machine, we're like, oh, what can you do there? Where will Fox fit? Well, where will Harper fit? Castle seems like the obvious choice. But if he's doing this, this if he's just like making plays all over the court like he did in this game, I think you kind of live with it. Yeah, I think you could kind of start to see some of, because the thing on Castle before he got to Yukon was just taking it back a little bit, talking about what set his skill set up to thrive so much with San Antonio was he was coming into Yukon, having been like a little bit of on ball stuff, but wasn't quite a shooter yet. And then you saw him over the course of the year play

in there like Folkrum, a lot of offball cutting with their big guy in the middle, with clinging in the middle. You started to see him around March start to come on because he was starting to understand what his like hitting singles, you know, in terms of short, kind of quick decisions that he could make and have an impact on the game without needing to pound the ball, without needing to be this like prototypical primary that we are obsessed with in this modern era of basketball. He's probably never really going to ever ascend to that level as a shooter, I don't think. I don't think he's ever going to be really the pull-up shooter. But he has really seen, I think, how he's bought in and started to learn about that. So you get sort of the unleashed dog. I thought all the spurs wings just look like a pack of unleashed dogs,

like going at the ball with Wimby behind them. And I think he just fits that. And we were talking about it before the season. It's like, we have talked a lot about Amin because Amin fits this mold. But I think Castle's right there too. It's he's in a good situation for him. And Dylan Harper's another one we haven't even talked about. But yeah. Just like then again, Justin, you talked about like the positive plays that he just pulls out a la Amin Thompson. Even if he's not shooting. There's that one possession where he misses the three, but because he's so active, gets the rebound, and then all of a sudden

he's at the basket drawing a foul. It's like, he has a way of correcting even the stuff that he can't do that is so exciting. And then all of the chaos he was creating defensively by speeding up Cooper flags, speeding up the handoffs, pressuring all that stuff super high. It's like, if you are rushed on the perimeter by

Castle and then freaked out by Wembe inside, your judgment is just completely out the window. Like, you have no way of thinking straight as a basketball player. at that point. Yeah, that's why it's so tough to judge flag. Not only is this his first NBA game, but you're playing against Wembe, who as we've just talked about for half an hour now, he's such a unique NBA player, let alone just being in NBA action for the first time. You had Castle just in your short that entire time. It's just not only bringing the ball up,

it just seemed like this was always going to probably be a tough launch for him. But I am curious, Kyle, what you think about the idea of point flag and just the viability of it long term, a tough start, but do you think more and more reps will help not only just this season, but maybe long-term in the development, and that's probably what they should be prioritizing at this point? Yeah, this kind of gets into like philosophy of like what you think is best for somebody to develop, like what's the best developmental situation? And, you know, I'm always big on like low-stakes reps, like just feed them to somebody, let them get, let them mess up and learn and kind of, and it's sort of like rookie point guards usually come in. Let them be

bad for a year. They kind of figure it out. But with Flag, you know, we were kind of talking about this in our season outlook kind of powwow yesterday, where Flag has been in this pattern of jumping ahead. He's always ahead of the developmental challenge. He never overstays it, you know? He's always young. He gets to the situation and he's tested a little bit. Like last fall at Duke, he had some messy in their early non-con stuff. He was a little messy. We heard about this a lot. And he slowly over the course of the season figured it out. We're in that staging. again where and I this is this is by far the biggest developmental challenge of his life I mean and

i don't you know sue scalding scorching hot take there he's in the NBA he's 18 he doesn't turn 19 until December um I just think with their personnel challenges and strains the other thing here is that I am kind of a believer in you know the hypertrophy kind of thing like strain the muscle until it fails and then it comes back stronger kind of a thing I was always in the gym by the way yeah I know it's just he'll he can just speedbag you with his pecks just a very But, no, I mean, I just think that was quite the visual. I wish we had an illustrator with that. No, Toddry pass coming to.

There we go. Come to the fore again, yeah. I think that what the Mavs fans are going to be sort of buckled up for here is, I kind of predicted. I was like, I'm done predicting against him. I feel like you might just be a star out of the gate here. But this challenge is really, really steep. And so I think we're going to be watching a bumpy road until we might have to kind of check back in on this in, like, January, February to be like,

is this kind of steadying? at all? Or is this Mab's situation so bad that we can't even look at it with the same lens that we have in the past? Well, it's also not the plan. It's just the temporary plan while Kyrie Irving is injured, while the lineup looks like this. And I also, like, we alluded to it earlier, just don't want to overreact to the way that anyone looks against the Spurs in the same way that I don't want to overreact to the way that the Rockets offense looked against the Oklahoma City Thunder. The difference in those two situations, the Mavs and the Rockets both playing jumbo right now, Houston has Kevin Durant. Like, they have the bailout option in the half court when things

don't work. Anthony Davis is not Kevin Durant. And like, those are the limitations offensively that you're seeing Dallas run into is everything takes a little longer to get into. Everything is crowded and clunky. And there's no guy who's going to bail them out at the end of the clock right now. Yeah. I think if a

normal organization lucked into drafting flag first overall, they would have taken a look at this roster and said, actually, let's trade some guys. Let's actually let flag play into this sort of role or whatever role he ends up being best at. Fortunately, he's kind of thrusts into a specific lane out of need because this team does not have a capable

point guard. And it's where you worry. I mean, it's the first game. Maybe he turns this around by the weekend and we're talking about something completely different. But this is always the worry where you're putting pressure on a guy who's not even out of his teenage years at this point in order to fill a role with expectations, not from us. I think all of us were kind of iffy on the Mavs this year.

Maybe a play in. There's just a lot of talent, whatever. But I think people were starting to build this momentum where it's like, oh, can Flagg, them into a tax. It's like, at the very least, let's just chill on that and let this guy be who he's going. See, you say they don't have a point guard. I, for one, very much enjoyed the Ryan Nemhard Minutes.

Opening night, Ryan Nemhard minutes. I was waiting for this. Classic Jason Kid shit, just like, yeah, let's try this. Let's see if it works. I got to say, it kind of worked for me. He's not a starting point guard. But that's a guard that's all of a sudden in the rotation and could be in a meaningful way. Yeah, he's a solid decision

maker. He has a track record of doing that. We'll see if he can be a good enough shooter or whatever it is. He's going to get picked on defensively. I think there are a lot of questions, but he's valuable to have and, you know, once they get everybody back. One other thing about the Cooper at Point experiment, again, I'm like for it. I think it's a good developmental plan. The stakes are what they are. The Mazz want to compete. That makes it kind of thorny. My problem is less with Cooper at Point and more the PJ Washington Clay combo on the wings. Clay was suffering last night. You could see him at different points be like,

I got to get a shot off and he just took whatever he got. He'll just take those shots in those moments. There's also like no one for him to guard when the lineup is this big, which is a bit of a problem. I would not hate replacing one of those guys in the starting lineup with Max Christie. Just like a little more shooting, a little more like perimeter agility in a way that this lineup

kind of needs. You can play Cooper at point but you need to support him with something a little different than this. There's no flex for the Mavs last night. And the Spurs were practically all flex. Another guy who was flexing his muscles in his first game, BJ Edgecom.

I'll do better next time. But another rookie, I wasn't expecting this. I know the athleticism was going to be there, but 34 points against the Celtics in his debut, alongside Tyreys Maxi, who had 40, just watching those guys just zip around the court for the next five to seven years, I hope, is just going to be one of the thrills of watching basketball.

Can I say, Justin, you and I vindicated for calling them an entertaining and energetic young backcourt in our preseason power rankings. We were right on this. That's right. Well, I actually said they would be, better off and more fun without having to deal with Joel

and Bede. Unfortunately, that looks like to be the case. We'll see about that one long term, but the early returns on Joel, rough, to say the least. Skin Bede out there didn't. Yeah, it was, he really wasn't attacking the basket. I mean, no rim pressure at all, not that he's, you know, become a bastion

of rim pressure in recent years, but yeah, he was it was odd. He looked really out of sorts about how and when to attack when he had Cato on him or whoever was gardening. Not everyone can be Dominic Barlow, you know. It's true. It's true. A lot of interesting reactions to Barlow being on the court. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Edgecom, though, 34 points in the debut, third most in history, best since Will Chamberlain. Crazy. Pretty good. Vijee was also on Good Morning America.

Was he? This morning about his performance. I don't know if that was pre-programmed or what, but that seems atypical, even for a high-scoring rookie. just an absolute blur, like unbelievable athleticism. Kyle, what did you see in that debut? I think you're just seeing, you just see the seas are parting for him in terms of the space that he has because he was on sort of a couple like ball dominant.

He was playing with a couple ball dominant upper classmen last year. It was just a classic case of a college system that didn't have a good flow. And you just see, even for a team that has a lot of things to work on, like the Sixers, he just had a lot more. He was catching, you know, you could kind of see Derek, White worked through the course of that game to be like his gap coverage was interesting with Edgecombe early in the game where he was just fully completely almost standing next to whoever

was guarding Maxie and conceding. And you could kind of watch over the course, you know, there was one step towards Edgecombe, two steps towards him. And he was just knocking down shots. I mean, which is interesting that I thought it was interesting that White and Edgecombe were guarding each other because I feel like the apex version of Edgecombe, you know, unless he takes a big handling leap, which is on the tape. But I think one of the outcomes for him that could make him a very valuable winning player is a version of Derek White with supercharged athleticism. Well, we could all be a little more like Derek White in our lives. Well, what you're seeing is a guy who is a ball mover, a guy who gives you extra disruption off the ball.

Like he can get up and he's very quick off of his feet. He adds shot blocking. He's a really good rebounder for his position. But what I love about him, man, is that he's going to make open shots. If he's an engaged cutter who can finish, I love to play where he has. had a baseline cut and he saw Kada there and he was just like, I'm going to ground Kada, jumped into his body, jumped over, finished him. And I was like, nuts. I underestimated how like immediately ready he would be to go. Now, is he dynamic shooter?

We'll see. But open shots. I trust him already. But even that is kind of unusual for me. It's like when I think of guys who have his level of athletic system and he was eye popping in college. He's even eye popping against NBA competition clearly in terms of the burst speed. also how smoothly he navigates through the defense is just a kind of coursing through guys in a way that kind of can't be stopped or denied. When a guy is that athletic, often you'll see them with their

jumper trying to do too much. I think about Russell Westbrook a lot with this. It's like they feel like they have to get so much lift in order to flex the thing that's their advantage or they've just kind of always played that way. What was remark about watching Edgegum just like can these open shots is his shot is so compact.

Very smooth, very easy, very repeatable and he's going to be playing off of Tyrese Maxine, presumably a better version of Joelle Embed, along with everyone else the Sixers have at their disposal. All of a sudden, like, that's a really helpful off ball player in addition to everything else he's doing. Yeah, his speed and burst

off the catch was unbelievable. Like, the ball would swing to him and he also had the presence of mind to make such a quick decision that he wasn't overthinking that, which you can typically see with some rookies. He knew and probably because he has blinders on, probably because he's so overconfident. He doesn't think any other way.

He was downhill in an instant and he's so fast and so explosive that there really was no stopping the play that Kyle was referring to with Kada. I think it was the second time he touched the ball and he was ready to fucking end Kada like immediately. There was that play where Tillman got switched on to him or was a cross-match and transition on the perimeter. He was trying to send him to early retirement like immediately. And that sort of like killer instinct, that's going to like allow him to add on.

some of those more advanced skills because right now it's all pure athleticism and just intuition. But it wasn't just Tillman and Kate it too. You saw him dust Jalen Brown. I think he's just, he's going to be one of those kinds of athletes who the cross matches have no shot. The switches have no shot.

If he has any momentum, and this is where he really benefits from not having to be the guy out of the gate, is everything he's catching is in semi-transition on the weak side, against a rotating defense. He's able to really leverage moving it that quickly and making decisions that quickly, but if you're rotated or switched or cross-matched at all, you're just not

going to have a chance to keep up with them. If it's one move, if it's one move, you know, I'm going to, if he gets caught, like it gets a rotate, if it's like a one-move situation, he's going to lose you. And, you know, he just will, he's so graceful. That's the other thing, too. You were talking, it is interesting you were talking about athletes when they get in the lane. I mean, Ant had a little bit of this, too. You just see this like really hard to harness raw power when they get in the lane. I'm in has some of this too. But that play that you were talking about when he when he dusted, dusted is our term of choice here.

Tillman, Chris Ryan was so happy about that. He bought me a hamburger. Whoa. Chris was also calling him Vijay Edgigua Gala the other day. I don't know if you guys caught that. If I can get that out. I heard that one to it. That's honestly kind of the role he's playing is like the early Iguodala with Iverson

kind of role. Yeah. He's also wearing number 77 though Which is so badass It's so badass I was gonna say that's disgusting Why? It's like the quarterback

and BYU you wearing 47 You can't be wearing an offense of linemen's number If you're one of the most dynamic players in the day I'm sorry Come on man I think the only argument against is Luca Other than that I like 77 Luca's got that weird Euro thing going on

I just think like and he needs to go by Valdez I'm gonna just say this over and over again That's the coolest name I was given Tyler A lot of grief for that not being on his list. Valdeh edge edge comb wearing 77. Jersey sales off the charts have to be. And jersey sales for people like me who don't want to show their arm. But yeah. I'll say on the flip side though with the Celtics just briefly

such a weird experience seeing them in this state. And they almost won. They almost won. I mean, we'll see how good the Sixers are long term, but didn't take a three until the middle of the first quarter. Nope. Which the broadcast crew was tracking with great interest because they were just like, they didn't know how to act. there was like an isolation place specifically drawn up for Baten Bridger don't know if I've seen a lot of those lately and then just Anthony Anthony

Simon's just not knowing how to play defense at all something I'm very familiar with but something that like Boston Celtics fans are not and I think everyone was like a little shook where it's like oh shit this is actually different in ways that like are going to affect how we appreciate basketball I think also Derek White taking 20 shots

20 shots of that I'm here for it That's something I have not seen very often, if at all, in terms of games that I've actively been watching. How many times in his career, Derek White has played almost 500 games in a non-overtime game? Do you think he has taken 20 shots? Justin? Last time? No, not last time.

How many times total has he attended 20 shots in a non-over-time game? I'll say three. I was going to say since he's asking us, it has to be something like, I'll say four. It is six. So maybe I baited you guys in the wrong direction But preposterous And some of those are again Like Celtics games where guys were out

Spurs games where he is the only thing going This is a different version of Derek White That is kind of like post being unlocked In the minimalistic way And now of a sudden has to fill the entire room More or less by himself with some of these lineups So we had a bunch of action last night I've only been able to catch up with half of it

I did the thing that I told myself I wasn't going to do where it's like I want to watch a full game and I want to pay attention to that one and not get distracted by all its other action. As soon as like that 4.30 window kicked in, I'm watching like a four box with this other game on the TV, not processing anything.

So I had to go back and watch a bunch this morning. But is there any other like news and notes you guys got from the action that you watched? Rob, anything jump out to you. Watching the Orlando Magic who... Orlando Magic. We're going to be hearing that a lot this season, I suspect. Oh, magic.

Flat there. I bet. They did not defend well at all against the Miami Heat, who as we alluded to, played quite well in terms of the standards of the heat roster especially. But seeing the Paolo Franz Bain experiment, all those guys going for 20, they're going to be really tough to beat when they do that. When they figure out how to get back to their kind of defensive baseline, if those guys are performing in that way and we're already seeing the way that they can kind of work together and off of each other, pretty glaring stuff, even for a game that didn't quite go according to plan for them. Yeah, magic have a lot to figure out there. Tyos Jones didn't play well. Suggs barely played. I think he only played like 17 minutes or something like that. They were allowed 17 minutes. It was like crazy, terrible fouls at the beginning and then game changing plays at the end.

At the end of the game, there was one play where someone dared to go underneath on him and he just drilled the three. I was like, holy shit, the magic can do that on offense. I'm the Titanic meme. It's been 84 years or whatever. Like how? Yeah. Okay. There was also that pretty crucial play where Bain dug out a ball on the floor in order to like seal the game basically.

And what was funny is that Suggs also got on the floor. But by the time he got there, he realized Bain was already there. And so it was like a real like hustle Eskimo bro sort of situation going on there. It was just like very much like kindred spirits. And so Wendell Carter also had a bunch of massive offensive rebounds and looked kind of like possessed in a good way where he was dunking on. guys. So it definitely took a while to get there, but the magic, they definitely have some. A couple things. I mean, just like a live dribble shooter passer, I think Bain's a little better passer than people give him credit for, but just adding that to what they do. There were a couple

different instances where I was like, okay, all right, where late in the game, there was a transition sequence where Suggs, I forget who came up with the ball. I think it was Suggs, but he intentionally gave the ball up to Bain, and Bain brought the ball up. And then you had Suggs sort of in one step to the ride and you had Palo who just ran ahead of Suggs. And you had this thing where you have this guy that you really have to respect and you could just see the defense move towards Bain. And then you could see, and once they did that, Bain was just like, okay, I'm going to throw the ball to Palo. But I just think the thing that what this could do for Palo to me is pretty enormous if he's willing to lean into it. I don't have the like advanced tracking stuff in front

of me, but there was a play early in the game too where he's screening for Bain. And I just feel like the more Paolo leans into that, the less pressure we're going to need to see. You know, we've been talking to him, he and Kayed both. I think over the beginning of their career, we've been like, okay, if they can be efficient scores, we've seen some of the passing. Granted, they're a little bit different players. But if Paolo will lean into that, I just think it's going to change his life in so many ways.

And another thing, man, I was telling you all, this is something I feel passionately about. If you're a superstar in the NBA, not that it's my place to lecture anyone that they know a lot more about basketball than me, but set up. at all, Kyle, man. Set a fucking screen. Just, it'll be a screener. It's just like, if I were running a basketball team, man, just the value that you, the threat of you scoring in an action, like, just really lean

into it. I would put it into dudes' contracts. Yeah. I'd be like, I want you screening this plenty of times a game and you'll get a bonus. I won't say you'll lose money, but you will get a bonus if you do this. So I just, uh, there's a lot of things to figure out for them. There's, I think we're just getting it started. So there is some truth to the idea that like once you think you're above screening,

you've really already kind of lost something in terms of the trajectory of your game. And so, yeah. That's Rob with podcasts. He doesn't send anybody up anymore. I feel like I do nothing but screen around here. I feel like I am nothing but Desmond Bain hitting the ground, getting floor burns.

You're Rudy Gourbert setting those screen assists via pod form. And then screaming for the basketball inside. Like, please God, pass it back to me. But the Bain element of that in terms of the pick and roll game with Palo, they went to it. They started with it and got some nice little tick-tack. toast stuff for a Wendell Carter Lop. They came back to it in the end, which is always reassuring that it feels confident for them. It's also so different from the Franz Paolo stuff,

where that's so easily switchable because those guys are already so big, the guy the teams are going to put on Desmond Bain is like a chase defender. And the guy that you're going to put on Palo is not that. And so you're already seeing the switches that can result from that kind of action that's just a totally new wrinkle that Orlando did not have access to before. But this is my thing in the offseason too, that like, if you have the luxury to do it, You know, like I was saying earlier, we were so, we got so obsessed with the spread, put your best player in pick and roll. If you have the luxury to get your offense, we would all agree, I would say still that Desmond Main is their offensive. There are people there to love, there's some Franz Truthers out there, but Bain is still their primary.

And if you can get him in a situation where he's maybe the, he catches the ball, he's maybe not the first touch in the offense. You put him in that kind of situation, you're just going to put him in these advantageous looks that he's going to be able to feast on. I don't know why he wouldn't do it. Hi, my name is Rob Mahoney. I am a Franz Wagner truther. I will not take the slander from you. No, no, I mean, there are truthers that say he's better than Palo. Is that?

Oh, no, I'm not quite at that level. That is what I was saying, yeah. But I think the power of Franz's game now is that he doesn't have to be on the ball as much. And I think the downstream effect of what we're talking about is when you have Bain handling the ball more, or as you said, even just bringing it up before that was Palo or Franz doing that. so then they could hand it off to Suggs and get in the action. That's asking, even just like incrementally a little more of them. And then you see later in the game, now they're just that much more tired

because they had to do all this little extra ball handling along the way. You saw in this game, Franz Wagner, just punching through drives in the moments where Paulo's off the floor or Bain is off the floor. Like, they're going to have so much more burst because they're able to share the responsibility. Listen, there's a lot to figure out in Orlando, but watching their offense was pleasurable for the first time and who knows how long? like I have watched a lot of magic games I particularly focused on the defense of them

and a lot of choking down their offensive possessions but there is like a breath of fresh air thing going on with watching them to the point where this heat magic clash was a real offensive like back and forth for a long time and we should talk about the heat just briefly because I'm starting to believe at the very least that what they were talking about in the off season Rob that like they were going to be a bit more decisive a little bit more off tempo things that coaches say every pre-season

season of every NBA season. They're actually doing. And it looked pretty good, especially from the job. Yes. I mean, Norm Powell is nothing, if not decisive.

Like, that guy will go to the basket, will get to his spots. He looked pretty awesome. I thought just like getting into floater range, getting into his drives, that is something that you're not getting from the Andrew Wiggins types on this team. And we'll see how it all blends when Tyler Hero comes back.

I thought, I thought Hero had quite a decisive season in terms of the way he was attacking last year. But what does he look like when he comes back? what is he trying to accomplish when he's on the floor. There's just still like a lot to wonder with the heat. But this was this was a great debut for them. Yeah. I did have a moment in last night's game, just a little anecdote where someone drove

to the basket and I was like, oh, who was that? 22 for, oh, yeah, that was Andrew Wiggins. Yeah, I just like completely, which I think speaks to his existence as a player. But yeah, Fontechio still, yeah, one of the, yeah. Big tech, still great. Jaime Hawkes, alive? Alive. Alive?

looks reborn just like has bounce to him that I don't remember ever seeing with Sacramento. It's just like, I think they have enough high floor guys that with Spolstra in his hands something can happen. We'll see if it carries on. Things definitely fell apart toward

the end there, but there's a lot of talent on the roster and that's going to get you somewhere in the The Miami Heat, something can happen. Buy your season tickets today. Put that on the floor instead of heat culture. Something can happen. Yeah. All right. Do you guys have anything else you want to hit from last night? I just would like the Atlanta Hawks who have really good defensive personnel to actively participate in playing defense again.

And I eagerly await that happening. That was brutal. I think it was 37 points in the paint, right? Or 37 baskets. The transition stuff was hideous. Just like straight up embarrassing. Yeah. That's one of those results where I'm like, let's wait and see because I think the Raptors will be much improved.

But I can't imagine Brandon Ingram is going to be just like a. dynamic ball handler is making that much happen. But we'll see. I think it's an encouraging start. And we got to see their head coach basically try to fight all their players in celebratory fashion in the locker room, which was always fun. Emmanuel quickly was not ready for all that. He was not ready for the Darko rounds that he made through the locker room.

He's a passionate guy. I feel like Darko is always like he looks like he has just got done, like getting so mad. He like welled up to tears before he delivers any point, which is just a nice conviction to have in a huddle. I do think should we not? speak on the fact that the clippers just absolutely grabbed the bed? I mean, what was that

about? I messaged Rob and I was like, what do you think about the Clippers transition offense? And he was like, do they have one? I was like, correct. Unclear. The shirts didn't work. How I don't know if you saw that, Kyle. They were wearing these shirts about getting back and that was the problem why they lost the

nuggets. Oh, yeah. Didn't fix it. Jeff Van Gundy, not happy. Yeah, yeah, stomping his foot. Yeah, it was odd. They just looked completely discombobulated in that game. I don't know. They look old. You know, it's what everybody was saying about them. I'm just hearing a lot about the clippers and not enough about like Bryce Sensible,

who you cannot stop but can only hope to contain. That's true. There's a lot of Sincobah fans out there. We kid, we kid. But I mean, I just think, I mean, I guess they just, the jazz saw a lot to gain out of this and the clippers just weren't ready to play. I mean, I think it's probably as simple as that. I don't know.

Do you all think it's different? No. I mean, clearly Kauai is just so daunted by his offseason transgressions. you just can't walk in. That must be the case. Do you think he felt a weight lifted today? He's like, oh, my God. Thank goodness.

There's another scandal that will just shield him from any kind of scrutiny. Yes, I think so. Well, we're getting to know some of the new faces and new places. Why don't we get to know each other a little bit better?

We did a little bit of this in our preseason pods when all that Kyle's around. I feel like we should find more out about me and my takes. And so I'm good. I'm introducing a new segment that if it goes well,

I want to do many times again, perhaps. It's called Name That Take, named after Name That Tune. I don't know if you guys have ever watched. Not a single time. Kyle? You know, it's just kind of maybe I saw it at some point. I don't know.

Are you going to like a Lawrence Welk clip? What do we do? I don't know. It feels like we got like a Wayne Brady revival at some point. No, it was the woman from, oh, who was the Liz Lemon show? 30 Rock? Yeah.

30 Rock. Yeah. Who's the blonde woman? I didn't watch 30 Rock, unfortunately. Wow. Way to bring it up. You haven't seen it. That was smooth.

Well, she's the one doing the show now. Okay. Yeah, it's who's lying in is in anyway, right? Is that what you were? No, but I thought they looped Wayne Brady into some kind of sing-songy type show. We're destroying this, yeah. This is great radio right now. But so, if you're not familiar with name,

that tune. The basic structure of it is there are two contestants and they are given a clue. And they have to go back and forth wagering in how many notes they can name that tune. I believe they start at 10. And so if Rob is one contestant, they'll say, I can name that tune in 10. And Kyle will be like, I could actually name it an eight. And they go back and forth until someone throws down the gauntland says, you have to name that tune. Well, we're going to do that for the NBA and specifically for NBA bold takes. I have the take. I'm going to give you guys the topic. And you have to wager back and forth in how many clues you can get in order to figure out the take. Okay.

Got it? Got it. Any confusion? I think we're ready. Let's just do it. Okay. The first topic, the Houston Rockets. And Kyle, since you're the new guy here, why don't you start?

In how many clues can you name that take? Three. Okay. I'm going to say I can do it in two. To clarify, we are trying to pin down the job. Justin Varyer registered trademark take. He has a huge advantage here. That's fine, but yeah, let's just play it out.

Let's see if I fall flat on my face here before anything happens. Kyle, you're up in the wagering. You either need to say one or to tell him to name that take. Wait, I can guess what I think the take is now. Like I get two guesses or what? You're either upping the ante where you think you can name it in one clue or you name that take. Take.

I know I can't name the take So I'm just gonna I'm not gonna up my ante So all right let's let's tell Rob Rob name that take Rob name that take This is a seamless game we have created Okay Rob The topic is the Houston Rockets

Yep your first clue Okay Trade deadline Trade deadline Yep all right Clue number two Yep Reed Shepard

Can you name that take I mean I think the easy version of this take is that by the trade deadline, the Rockets need to flip Reed Shepard for a functional starting point guard today. Would Justin go with a take that's that straightforward, though? Would he lean into something even more extreme?

Or would he have a very specific name on the books? Trying to think of what point guards might be available. Who is it that might be even in play for a team like Houston at that point? You know what? Here's what I'm going to say. Justin's take is, actually, Reed Shepard seems like too much to give up for this point. the Houston Rocket should trade Reed Shepard for C.J. McCollum.

That's my Justin Barron take. That would be a bad thing. Unfortunately is incorrect because that's a terrible trade. Well, that's why I thought you might propose it. So you were close. I actually didn't go that bold in this one. I have as the take, the Rockets will trade Reed Shepard.

It is a projection before the trade deadline and relegate tall ball to a playoff wrinkle where it should have stayed. Because I'm not burying Reed Shepard. I don't know what he's going to be as a prospect. Frankly, I just don't think that he has

the margin for error and the Houston Rockas don't necessarily have the flex considering the injury to Fred Van Vlee. And some of the injuries they're also experiencing with Dorian Finney Smith and whatnot in order to give Shepard the room to figure out who he is. And as we saw in game one, it doesn't look

like it's going to click within their system. And I also wonder if going to Tallball to start the season was a real way of looking at how they view their team one and where they think their strengths lie. And I wonder if those two things clash. And so ultimately, I would like to see them if they're going to make a trade swing for the fence.

I have to wonder, Kyle, if you would make a deal with, let's say, the Boston Celtics. For Eric White. Oh, for Derek. Oh, yeah. I mean, I would wait. Yeah, White is who I would want. That's tasty. basically has a no trade clause, would he be interested going to the Celtics? Would the

Celtics be interested in picking him up as a stopgap to next year when Tatum will presumably be healthy? Can you pick up someone like Tar Heason or Reed plus picks? Is that interesting to the Celtics or do we trade Reed somewhere else? But basically, I'm trying to swap Derek White for Reed Shep. I don't know that the Reed thing, I just, I feel like his, their leverage with Reed is probably more compromised than it's ever been right now because everybody watched that game everybody just like what he's ready to do granted if you want if the if you wanted to simulate the toughest test imaginable for the reed shepherd experiment he looked terrified out at near had did you see him like stop at half court and be like come get it please i'll ever read but like he's not ready to dribble against that type of ball pressure

he's just not that type of player i just don't know that they'll do that i think easen is more i could see someone who believes in their player development looking at Easton and being like, we can really get something out of that. Get Fran Van Belie, get Tari Easton, and maybe some draft capital. And then you get somebody like a Derek White might. What would happen to that team if they got Derek White? It would be incredible. Like they'd be.

I'd love it. Yeah, he's the perfect fit for them. I guess I think that's what on the read front. Like, if Amund Thompson is healthy, I think Houston wins that game. Like he had to leave early, compromise them, not just offensively. Like, he was the one guy who could actually. drive and get past an initial line of defense on that team at that point. But then also, Tari had to come in miscast, I would say, defensively.

Like the things that I love that Tari Aeson does on defense are mostly as a chaos agent. They are not, oh, you have to somehow hang with Shea Gilgis Alexander for these possessions, which is how all of a sudden you get a lot of, not just Reed Shepard, but Josha Kogi in crunch time. A lot of Kogi. Off the rails. Yeah. Well, that's why I'm wondering about the bigger picture thing here in whether or not the big old front court with Shen Gune and Adams.

is ultimately probably best served as a curveball, like something that you have in your arsenal to throw out when the advantage presents itself. And I can see the thinking on opening night with OKC being a little bit small, J-Dub not being in there and getting the advantage there. They did dominate the boards in that game, but I'm also wondering if that is your base set

that you're hoping to go through this season, one of the precious few for Kevin Durant still probably playing at an all-star level. And you can't run really. The shooting seems compromised, especially if Doran Finney Smith's not going to be there, is even going to really help, much because he's not a volume shooter.

Is Reed going to be able to fill that role? It just seems messy right now. And I wonder if the time is now to clarify that to help yourself now and then in the future. I think if you're starting from the mindset of an aspiring playoff team, it could just simple. It could be as simple. It should be as simple. It's just going, do we have multiple looks?

They don't. So whether or not that's their primary look or not, I think on a game to game basis that could shift. If they have a huge advantage, they could start with that and then go to a counterpunch, they need more options and they just don't have any right now. Rob and I were talking about how the hilarity of the second spectrum said that they drove the ball, I think like 54 times. It didn't seem like that.

I think that counts like. Shangoon moon walking into the bag is not a drive. It's just not. Well, that's the other thing. Is Shengun going to play like slimmer Yokic for the rest of this? He might. Pretty awesome. Your basket was incredible.

And I have high hopes for him. But I don't know if he's going to be able to shoot at that level for an entire season. He was basically their go-to three-point shirt. He was awesome. And it worked really well as a hub. I thought, like, dealt really well with the pressure that the Thunder were throwing at him. See, I'm not ready to bail on the double big look yet as their kind of default set. I think it makes a little bit more sense when you have another guard out there, if it's by trade or otherwise.

And even within this game against the best defense in the world, when Adams and Schengun were out there together, 115 offensive rating. That's more than good enough. Like, you just have to have enough other stuff around the edges and kind of filling out the rotation for it to all make sense. their three, four, five beef was just noticeably bigger than OKC as incredible as OKC is. And yeah, they made a lot out of it. Some big old boys up there. All right. Topic number two, Matt Ishpia.

Rob, you're going to start the bidding. I see, I think Justin could go in a lot of different directions with this one. And I'm a little gun shy after whiffing so hard on number one. So I'm going to say I could do it in four clues. I could try to do it in three. I'm not confident. You know what? Name that take, Kyle. I want to see you name that take.

All right, Kyle, the topic again is Matt Ishpia. Clue number one, the ringer. Well, yeah. Ringer. That feels like I give him. Well, it's the first clue. First clue is the easiest one. Okay.

Number two, pointed but not altogether mean tweets. Okay. Clue number three, these clues aren't very good. I'm sorry. Clue number three, different culture and different team in PHX this year. Let's go. So those are your three clues.

I'm really glad I bailed on this one. It's actually kind of cool that Matt Isbius stood up for his team publicly. Oh. I like where your head's at, but I'm sorry, that's also incorrect. The real take was, we now live in a world where Michael Pina may have an impact on an NBA team, and that frightens me more than global warming. Pena's tickled pink. I know that.

Yeah. So I don't know for the audience. I don't know if you caught this, but there's, was an item in Pina's column, 24 increasingly bold predictions. Let's keep that in mind where he predicted that the sons would have the worst defense in the NBA the season. Matt Ishpia got very mad at this. And for some reason, we had Bill.

And it was kind of like, what the fuck? Which I thought was very fun to see all play out. But in particular, I think Pina Robb might be in a position where he is spurring the sons to prove him wrong. Did they? We'll see. I mean, they gave up 116 offensive rating

to the Kings last night. I think 70 something in the first half alone. They looked like they were on track. Yeah, it was looking rough at that half time, but yeah. I think the bigger issue is also

that they're not starting a single of the true centers that they've spent so much capital accruing. So I know Mark Williams is being past back, but Osso Oso O'Daro is at center. Yeah. I just don't know what's going on. I do like Oso.

And as far as, I do. Clearly that is representative of part of the philosophy here, which is also gives you more options defensively, gives you the flexibility to do what they did and kind of flipping over in the halves and course correcting their defense a little bit. But it certainly did look like Michael Pina was quite prescient

in terms of the first half. Yeah, being cute and switchable is only going to get you so far unless you have somebody that is like world class. And as we've seen with Wimby, we have even a Trump card for that at some point. But also give maybe, you know, I could see, I could imagine the thinking of, oh, so is a good passer, is a guy who's smart playing in the open floor and can kind of take some of the playmaking load off of a Dylan Brooks, a Jalen Green.

Devin Booker capable passer, but setting him up so you could see that. But yeah, they're in a tough spot where they're caught between not using that size because Mark Williams, not a great pastor. Molo Watch will see someday. But yeah, they're kind of caught in a tough spot here with their choices. There's no question that Mike is moving the market, though. Like the line, clearly everything is shifting in his world. I have a hard time believing they'll be worst, but I appreciate just the boldness of the take,

which is the whole point of the column to begin with. Turns out. That's a good question. I mean, just quickly. The Clippers made a strong opening claim. Yeah, wizards are out there. There's a lot of competition for that spot, unfortunately. Yeah.

All right, topic number three. Broadcasts. Kyle, you're up first in the wagering. Five clues on the table. Oh. Um, two. Whoa. See, I thought I had a pretty good hold on where Justin might be going.

Here's my whole philosophy. Who the fuck cares? You know what? Name that take, Kyle. Okay. Kyle, two clues on the board for the topic broadcasts. Uh, your first clue, MBA on NBC. Yep. Okay. As expected. And number two, internet dweeps.

What is my take? They could use a little more internet-style dweebery on this all-player all. It's a little... This is not the Justin take. I don't know. That's more the Kyle take. It was very... They need a little more nerdery.

They need a... I'm trying to think of a great... They need like a John Schumann type guy to balance the player perspective on these broadcasts. No. No way in hell. The Justin Barrier... take is that the internet dwebs are pissing themselves over a, this is the words of Justin Verrier in my mind, lukewarm NBC product.

Okay. That's very, very close. Okay. Well, then ours goes in tandem. That's my take, but that's, okay, yes. So I agree with you. They do, I did enjoy the nostalgia, but I do think that they need to mix it a little bit with something else.

Yeah. So the specific thing I have written down here is the NBC broadcast was fine at best, manipulative at worse. Oh. And everyone will turn on. it by midseason. Where did you feel manipulated? And the nostalgia play of it all. And I have to say, like, if that's your thing, not trying to yuck anybody's yum. Ultimately, first of all, yes, you are constantly

trying to yuck people's y'all. That's kind of your thing. Yeah, that's true. Okay, fine. I am and I hate all of you. But I, I too felt the tugs of the heartstrings, you know, when I saw the logo come in and round ball rock and obviously Michael Jordan being there, It's just awesome. It's just great to see the legacy. But I found it odd when people wanted to suggest when Dr. Twitter becomes marketed executive Twitter and it's like this is the mold in order to save the MBA from whatever morass it's in now because of ratings, yada, yada.

That's where like I have to call bullshit there because, yes, the nostalgia was fun, but I just don't know how much you can coast on that alone. And in my opinion, I found the broadcast to be totally fine. Like all of the presentation seemed like pretty typical. Draco and Noah Eagle, also pretty good play-by-pelly guys. I'm excited to see what they could do. But the actual talent is just a lot of retreads. It's like Reggie, who stinks, Vince Carter, Grant Hill guys who haven't really like found anything interesting.

I actually don't like either of them. I tend to think that they're very milk toast. And if anything, there's a lot of people being like, oh, what we need to do is celebrate the NBA. Yeah. And like and just really uplift the the message, the Connor being like the who you play, who you play for TNT style of thing. And I just don't buy that. Like I think being honest is actually fun and like we're not complicit in how the NBA markets

its product. I think a lot of this probably stems ultimately from hatred for ESPN, which I 100% agree that broadcast stinks. I think trying to bring in TNT was a weird move. I'm glad those guys are still around. I had a lot of fun with them last night. But it is weird to see the exact same set, but then the logo. go is changed as ESPN.

I'm more excited ultimately for the future, not the past. And so I'm more excited to see what Amazon has to say here. I mean, you've always been a Bezos guy. You know me. Those Bezos bucks are just affording a lot of the furniture that I have going on in this apartment. But I just think like they stocked their entire crew with new voices who have recently played like Dirk and Nash is always someone who has something interesting to say about

the league. I saw that they got Marcus Thompson to do like just essays. Like there's just like a real like approach there and something that's thinking forward and not backward. And I actually like that way more than what NBC is. I don't disagree with the Amazon part of that take. I think the NBC elements still felt welcome to me. It was clearly a nostalgia bait. But they also kind of tipped their hat to the fact that it was nostalgia bait by having all the young players come up like with being prompted for their memories that they don't have of the last time the NBA was on NBC, which I,

appreciated. Ultimately, I didn't find the studio panel elements of the show to be riveting television. It did, however, and maybe this is just because it was on NBC and because of the nostalgia and because it was opening night, felt like more of an event, frankly, than some of the ESPN broadcast did. And so I'm eager to see in the flow of the regular season. Is that still the case? Will it just kind of wear off over time, as you're saying, Justin, and people kind of turn on the broadcast? But, like, I do appreciate the enthusiasm. I think the cynicism of inside is fine, but when it is the only definitive voice on the NBA, that is a bad thing. And ESPN had no voice in terms of its panel shows covering games, or it was strictly a transactional voice

or a feeder like fodder for first take kind of voice. So one that is eager to talk about basketball and excited to talk about basketball, even if it is a little hollow, I'm fine with that for a broadcast product. I think they need to mix in, I said the nerd part, but really, I mean, among the player portion of what they're trying to do, I just think they need a little bit of the Lesser player, lesser, I mean, I'm thinking of like the Legler-Retic. Those are both good NBA players. But like, I think they need a little bit of somebody who has less to lose in terms of just mixing it up and being brutally honest. I think that would enjoy, that would improve the product.

But, you know, just on a lighter note, I felt like it was a total dereliction of duty that they didn't have Bob Costas to do an opening. Like, come on, what are we doing? I'm really biased towards that because it's my favorite. But also, just another idea, I'll toss this to you guys, hologram. AI Bill Walton. What do we have to lose? We could even get the, we could get the perm that he had in the 90s. Yeah. Shaquille O'Neal needs to dunk the ball. You know, like we need to get, we need to him to go at somebody, you know, yeah. Overall, I think. This is going to sound crazy, but I think Kyle's on to something. I want to see more innovation. For instance, I was watching holograms, sure. Or just how about this? No sideline interviews. What value do those have to talk to a sweaty player who's going to just like give you a banal response to a bad question? Like, why? do we need those? Or the pregame Javari Smith stops by the table interview.

I had an idea. I had an idea. Like I was watching the Hornets game gave me the other night, gave me this idea. We have just random. This could go into the NBA rules too. Each head coach gets a random mandatory polygraph test that they can give to the player of their choice.

So Lamello takes a wild one-legged 40-foot three-point shot. Eric Spolster's like, time out. I want to take concanipple to mid-court and give him a polygraph. Did you like that shot con? Like, you can really sew in some dissension. And, you know, I just, I think it could really raise the stakes. It would be an interesting thing. Well, I think Chauncey Billups is going to pilot that idea for us, whether he wants to or not.

So we'll see. All right. Last topic on the board. New co-host. Oh, wow. Okay. Rob, I think you're not answering this. Yeah.

I mean, I think I have to win this bidding. I'm going to do, I'm going to say I can do it in three clues. Okay. Name that take, Rob. I'm all ears. You've given away the game here because this is an easy one. The clues are too revealing. Clue number one.

Topic is new co-host. Pronunciationunciation. Okay. Conunciation. All right. Clue number two. Persnickety ass motherfuckers. All right.

And what's clue number three? Foreign names. Foreign names. Rob. Name that take. you can go a lot of directions with this. Persnickety. Okay, so I do correct Justin's pronunciation

with some regularity on this podcast because I, like, you know, I would think the fine folks in NBC believe that you should know the players you're talking about and pronounce their names correctly. It's a bold take on my part. I think Justin's take is that you, Kyle, as our new co-host,

will be able to one-up me and put me in my place correcting when I botched the pronunciation on something. I don't know how to feel about this that you think that... No, that's... Rob's not correct anyway, so that's fine. But it is really more of a warning to Kyle. The take is, don't ever mispronounce a player's name,

or Rob will murder you with shame and bury your body where your loved ones can't find it. I was going to say, I've been accused of being like an epic nuclear douche for the way I say Luca Donchich. So I'm very guilty. I thought that's where you were going with it. I've been known to be made fun. for my pronouncing things that need not be labor to over pronunciation wise.

So I'm with you, Rob. That's just his name. I just try to do right. I just try to do. The Hartstein wars have been waged over many years. And we finally come out in a detente over that one. I did not correct you a single time. I just kept insisting soft correcting by pronouncing it Hartenstein, which is his name.

That's really cool. That's his name. I'm not like, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not trying to murder you out here. No, the actual take here is Kyle. We're glad to have. you. We can't wait to do a full season of podcast. Absolutely. Don't be sentimental.

Why not? That's what we do on this show. Yeah, for sure. That's what you're known for. As you can tell, by the first take. We'll end up at a detente. Yeah. We are genuinely, though, thrilled to have you. I'm very excited about this season. I'm very excited about this season with Kyle. Great things ahead for group chat, Justin. 100% agree. And remember, in terms of scheduling, we'll be back Sunday night-ish, early, early,

Monday morning and also on Wednesdays. So with that, we'll wrap it there. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Bigwas for being with us for so many years. Thank you, the listener. We'll talk to you next time.