The Ringer NBA Show - Timberwolves and Knicks Blow 2-0 Leads | Real Ones

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

Logan, Raja, and Howard are back to look back at the weekend’s playoff games. They open the discussion with reactions to the Timberwolves blowing a 2-0 lead at home against the Nuggets (02:00). Then, they look at the Knicks losing their 2-0 lead against the Pacers (20:00), before turning to Mavericks-Thunder (36:30). Later, the guys are joined by producer Kerm to answer your mailbag questions (46:30). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Bill Simmons. I am thrilled to announce our newest YouTube channel. It's called Ringer Movies. If you're a fan of our movie coverage here at The Ringer, then you're in luck because every episode of The Rwatchables and the Big Picture, now on YouTube. Like Bill said, Ringer Movies will feature full episodes of my show, The Big Picture, the Rewatchables,

as well as special live episodes, deep dives into movie history and a bunch of other fun stuff featuring other movie-loving Ringer personalities. Search Ringer Movies on YouTube and Experience the Joy, Chris Ryan impersonating Wayne Jenkins on camera. What's popping? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Roger Bell there. Howard Beck of the motherfucking cut. This is motherfucking Mondays. This is grumpy Mondays. Me and Roger are manufacturing beef way too early this morning. We're going to talk about the Timberwolves. We're going to talk about the nuggets. We're going to talk some Knicks. We're going to preview the games for Monday night. But first, so. It's crazy how things can change in a week. Last week we were talking, I was talking that big talk about Anthony Edwards

and could he be the best player in the league. Are the Minnesota Timberwolves? Huh? You had 44, 44 ball last night. He looked pretty damn good. I mean, I don't think he personally has done anything. You're fucking up my setup here. Relax.

I will get to you at a second. If the shit's trash. I'm going to get in them interjecting, my vicar. I'm here. I'm just saying what I said. Okay, so anyways, so boom. He didn't do shit to live that down. I was talking all this stuff about the Minnesota Timberwolves

and their championship aspirations. Now they're down to, too, too. And what I was going to get to, which riser rudely interrupted, Anthony Edwards seems to be bawling. Hey, Howard. Howard, hold up, though. Hold on a, hold on a real quick. There's a little, like, we're on a riverside.

The fans can't see. this, but there's like an orange box. You see the orange box that's above, like, that's right between you and Kerm on the screen there. It says NBA show or the ringer. You see that? It's like our show art. Whose fucking name is first on that?

Oh, gosh. Jesus Christ. What is going on? What is going on? But you don't get at me on a Monday morning. You want to manufacture some beef. Howard, let the people know if you need to check your Twitters or your fucking ringer feeds. So when I want to open my mouth, guess what I'm about to do?

Oh, my God. Wow. Kerm. What did I do? What did I do? I know Roger was going nuclear this morning. I don't know Roger was going nuclear this morning. I didn't know.

He said, he said, carry on as a per. I'm still a perk friend of the show. Carry on. He said, you would have manufactured beep. All right, man. We're not even two minutes since. Okay, I promise we're going to get to the, to the topics. Anyway, so.

Anthony Edwards is balling. I think that's the biggest, the biggest takeaway from this, from the series so far, at least on a Timberwolf side, but from, you know, ever since, and it's weird that we're getting to this place,

Roger, because usually when a team is up too well going back home, at least we're going to go back up 3-1, but what we've seen from this Timberwolves team is lack of secondary scoring, right? Like, we're seeing the fruits of inconsistency from one Carl Anthony Towns.

how precarious is this situation for the timber wolves at this point if you had to rate it from about one to ten a nine point five um you've you've squandered a two o lead and is as incredible it is as it is to like get up to oh on the defending champ's home floor in the way that you did um it's equally is incredible is for you to go home with that 2-0 lead with your home crowd and all of its juice and give it back to them in the way that you did. And so I would just say you're in a best of three now with the defending champs who weren't playing great basketball. And they seem to have in game two been embarrassed enough to wake up in a sense. And so now it's two out of three with them having home court advantage. It's very precarious. I don't want to. I, I don't want to. I,

I know I've been guilty, Howard, of just, you know, being, you know, going off the rails and just making very big declarations, you know, but just did. It just got, just tagged for it. I didn't even know. Wow. I'm just still, still just eviscerated from the nuclear. Look, you get, I would just say this. Sorry. You get 45, 46.

You start getting, like, back spasms and shit, like, it'll just get you grumpy. You know what I mean? Man. It's like, I'm just, my bad. man, my back hurts. My fucking back hurts, man. I'm sorry. Howard, one, can you relate to Rogers' troubles right now?

And two, I'm going to just pose a question right back to you. How precarious is the situation for Minnesota? I can relate because I can recall times in the last, I don't know how many years where I sneezed and like fucking pulled a rib muscle. So like, this is what you have to look forward to, Logan. Jeez. It's precarious.

It's as precarious as Raj's back, apparently. I mean, listen, I think we're all prisoners of the moment. And the second the Timberwolves stole home court advantage in game one, and then took game two, it was, I mean, everything. And I was talking to people around the league who were like, yeah, the nuggets are toast. And I started hearing rumblings of like, oh, this, I'm not going to get into it on the pod now, because it's not fair. But like there were rumblings about why it was happening.

And suddenly everybody's starting to speculate about the nuggets and where it's going to go from here because now it's an assumption that they're just going to lose and all this. And here we are. The champions look like the champions again. And it's tied to two two on the road. And now we're just down to a best of three. And they've got two at home. And now we're going to overreact and bury the Timberwolves.

Like this is what we do in playoff series, especially if there are wild swings, right? We're partially prisoners of the moment because we're responding to what the players just did. And we have nothing to go. None of us can actually see the future, all stupid predictions that we do in this business, notwithstanding. The players go out there and we react. So if we overreact, it's because there are some wild swings sometimes. And this is one of those series. And it becomes hard to get a real grasp of. Towns did everything yesterday to reinforce all of the old concerns about him, all the frailties about his game. And yet at other times, he's been great and he could just as quickly flip it around.

The nuggets were just banged up enough and out of sync enough that they looked vulnerable. Suddenly they don't. I have no idea what comes next. I really don't. I know what I'm supposed to say I don't know in this business. I don't fucking know. That's probably the best answer because I'm trying to get down. declarations and give all these things.

It's like, oh, man, like this can happen. You know, we've seen what, I mean, because on the surface, we've seen what Anthony Edwards can do. I want to pose this to, this question to Raja, because I was talking to Rob Mahoney on, on the pot on Saturday evening. We were doing a lot. It was it Friday, Friday evening,

a ringer NBA show after dark. And we, obviously the subject of Anthony Edwards came up. And I'm just looking right now at the stateline. This is the disparity between Anthony Edwards and everyone else on the floor, like 44 points, five rebounds, five assists, 16 to 25. Like, he's just been amazing. But I posed the question of, is there anything else? Is there another style that Anthony Edwards can bring to the floor that could be, because I'm thinking about this. I'm thinking about Kobe in the 0506 series against you guys.

Raja, where he was going into that series, the first round series, he was a scoring dynamo, one of the best scoring seasons of all time. But with you guys, at least for the first three or four games, he took on more of the game manager decoy role. Is that something that could be more conducive to winning at this stage for Anthony Edwards? And I'm just, I'm literally just asking questions. I don't, I don't know. I think he's been playing fantastic.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I hear what you're saying, and I can appreciate it. And he had five assists last night. Like, there's a world in which I could say I watched that game. And with his ability to get wherever he wants to go on a floor, it could make sense for him to try to get that up to like eight or nine and spring people for some, at least theoretically, easier opportunities for themselves, you know? But the reality is he was doing that. And guys just weren't converting them all that.

the time. It's not like he's in there and he's a non-willing passer. There were multiple times in the midst of like a heater for him where they were trying to hang on and stay kind of connected score-wise where he'd give it up and someone else would take it upon themselves to like shoot a like cat or I think was Jada McDaniels want. Like they'd just shoot a wild shot and I'd be actually begging them in the, you know, get that shit back to him. Don't there shouldn't be a possession right now where he doesn't have it. If he truly, to pass it to one of you, Jokers, cool.

But while he's hot like that, let him rock. So I feel what you're saying, but I really don't think so, Logan, because I don't know who else on that team, who else on that team other than Kat can really create in their own way.

So now you're asking him to, like, to really be a facilitator and a creator. And I don't think that the others have enough upside offensively for him to exist as that on that team. He's going to have to be a primary score. And when you, what dictates that, based on the team personnel that you're seeing right now, what dictates the reasoning for being a game manager

versus now he has to just go full throttle? Is it just because other guys aren't making shots? What is the, when you see the team that is around him right now, what dictates that, oh, Anthony Edwards needs to get 45 a night every night? Well, I don't know that it needs to be 45. but he's got to be a primary score because although there are guys out there that can get buckets. I'm not taking anything away from any of their abilities. They don't strike me as like primary guys.

The only person, if cat were consistent as a bucket or the nights when cat is good as a bucket, like high end bucket, then Ant can afford to be a little bit more distributive with the ball. try to get people some shots because you just don't need his point production in the same way. But the way the team is made, like they need him. And it's not always as easy as it sounds to tell a guy who sees the game through primary score lens to like change that and be distributor. I mean, you've seen Kobe historically in playoffs when he, I mean, it's out there, right? We're like, they're telling him to pass more. And it is just, it doesn't work like that.

Yeah, yeah. It's hard to wear both of those hats. For sure. It's going to be interesting to see. I really don't have much more about this series because like Howard said, it's just, it's, I feel like there's, we've been on a roller coaster this entire series. I think we're going to get even more on the roller coast. I guess one more question I'd have to ask though, Roger.

How much of a fumbling of the bag is it to lose, though, at two games at home in that way, right? Like, geez, that's crazy. I'm telling you, it's equally as incredible. you rarely see someone at this level of the playoffs at this point with teams like that someone walking to a defending champions building and take two that was like oh shit yeah but it's it is just the antithesis of that to see that team go home and just get beat like they like they did at their crib two times in a row it's pretty incredible and i know we don't want to spend a whole lot of time on that but there were a few things that i think i'm interested to hear you guys is

perspective on it. It tells me what I need to know when I see cat and even ant a little bit and other cats on Minnesota moaning and crying and bitching at the officials in the way that I saw Denver doing it in game two.

Like that tells me a lot. When now, you know, it ain't no fun when the rabbit got the gun, right? Like now y'all are the ones they're going to be crying and bitching and it's a distraction. Like we got to get back to hooping. Yeah. Like, I don't care if he didn't call it. Yes, you think you got fouled. We all do. Everyone who's ever had a

ball in their hands and missed a layup thinks they got foul. Yeah. But we can't, we have to be hooping and they're, they seem like they've been distracted. I don't know. It feels like, I mean, I know Denver went through it and, you know, went at the reps and especially

on the onset of the series. But I think they get a lot more rope just because that's what the defending champion tag gets you, is a lot more rope to do things, right? Because you do get more of the benefit of the doubt. When I see Minnesota doing it, it speaks to their youth. And that's, and I know there's going to be a lot of people in Minnesota like, that's unfair, but those are the breaks. That's what, that's what it is. Like, you guys haven't done anything yet. So when we come hard on you in terms of the refereeing, that's what I see. I just see immaturity. And I see, I see, what I see that happen. I see all the

things that was talked about in a diss towards Minnesota. And it's something. that they have to learn through and grow through, right? And we'll see what they do in this game five. But Howard, I really just don't know what's going to happen on this game five. Literally anything can happen. We're going into game five and neither playoff team has won a home game. I don't even know if that's a, is there, is that ever happened? I don't know.

I'm trying to remember, I don't, off the top of my head, I can't, but I know this has happened. I'm positive at least through the first four games we've had this happened where the road team won, one through four. Is there a series where the home team never won? I'm going to guess it's happened. But I don't have that off the top of my head. Things we could be Googling if we stall long enough. Or maybe Kerm can look up for us while we're moving on.

But it is weird. It is weird. The thing that's not shocking about it is I've said all along. Raja tell me if you disagree. But I've said all along. as much respect as I have for the Nuggets, their margin for error is not as great as some other champions that we're used to seeing in this league. And it's because, as we've discussed, it's more of this ensemble cast, right? Yokic is, you know, has current mythical title of greatest player in the world, three-time MVP in four years.

But, you know, Jamal Murray's really, really good, never been an all-star, all-star caliber, but not an all-star, Aaron Gordon, KCP, Porter. are like a bunch of good players. Bench isn't that great. Lost two key guys off the bed. Like the margin for error isn't that great. So if you pull one thread, if somebody's just off for the day, if Jamal Murray's banged up as he was coming into the series

and KCP was and Yokic is just a little out of sorts for whatever reason, then it makes you vulnerable. And the Timberwolves were just good enough to be able to take advantage of that. And the nuggets are just good enough and have the muscle memory to then say, eh, whatever.

We lost two. at home. We're good. We can do this. And then they do. And then like, if you're the Timberwolves, now it's like, oh, shit, we woke up the sleeping giant. The nuggets who won the championship look like themselves again. And, you know, you might be a little rattled. A couple of things that I thought were interesting. I mean, one, the amount of times that you had Yolkich bringing the ball up the court or Aaron Gordon bringing the ball up the court. If you remember in games one and two, they lived with their guards bringing it up most of the time. That allowed Minnesota to start the pressure at the point of attack from the time it came in bounds.

And I remember saying early in that series, man, they're picking him up really early. Like they're making Jamal, they're making him work. That alleviates it. You're not going to have Rudy Gober. Even though they had Rudy up a little bit trying to do it, it looks. I mean, you don't want Rudy out there guarding Yokic bringing the ball up the court. The second thing, which I think is interesting and you always have to pick a poison when you're playing teams like that is do you, Yokic is going to do what you, you know,

Yokich does. Jamal Murray, even though he didn't go off off, you know he's going to make big, timely shots in most situations. Like he's a really good playoff player, like a really good player, period. But he tends to pick it up in the playoffs, especially in critical moment. You have to find a way to not let the Michael Porter Jr.'s kill you on any given night, to not let Aaron Gordon kill you on any given night. We have to figure out the balance there. If Jamal and if Jamal and Yokic do it, they're going to, yeah, you tip your hat. The same way that if you could take Jamal and Yokic out of the game,

you tip your hat to the others if they beat you. But that's never going to happen. It's the best player on the planet. He's going to eat. Like, he's going to do what he does. You've got to mitigate the rest of that. I don't have the answer for it. You got to stay home a little bit, man.

You can't be letting him kill you from that dunker spot. Now, he's hitting some incredible shots. It wasn't all like being. spoon fed last night, Aaron Gordon, that is. But it helps when he's able to get off early from the dunker spot in offensive rebound, and then it opens up the jumper

and the rest of the stuff he can do. I still don't have anything for the, it's just going to be so interesting to see, you know, what happens in game five. Like, I just, I don't have a, it's so, I just don't have a grasp on this series in the way that, you know, you should, it should be copy.

It should be just black and white. Timberwell should be up, at least 3-1 right now going into this game. But it's just wild how things shift, especially in the modern NBA. Let's talk about, speaking of things shifting. Pacer's Knicks,

which is me and Roger talked on Friday before, the last time we talked, I think we were going into game three. And you said something really interesting, Roger, where, you know, the Knicks injuries, and specifically Jalen Brunson,

first of all, You said that Brunson might possibly should sit, which was interesting. And the anecdote to that that I thought was going to happen was, oh, well, the Knicks can just go ahead and win game three. And then, you know, then the game four, not necessarily that it's irrelevant, but like you're taking a lot of pressure off of your team. What happened was, you know, the next case scenario. Worst case scenario happens over the course of this weekend. where you squander a lead down the stretch of a very, very getable game. You run them into the ground chasing the win.

Run them in the ground chasing the win, which honestly, rightfully so you should have did it, and it helps if you win that game. And then now you're back to two, two. Let's start with Howard, who's our resident Brooklynite, who was somewhat in the backyard of Madison Square Garden. Where do you see this series going?

where are we? And I ask you how precarious the situation is for Minnesota. How precarious is the situation from a scale of one to ten for the New York Knicks? Ooh, scale of one to ten. It's like a seven to eight. Like it's pretty precarious. And, you know, I said this. We did a roundtable at the ringer.com.

Several of us, Logan, you were not involved in that roundtable. But we were surveyed last night by our esteemed editor. on some impressions through the second round so far and where we think it goes from here, I think we all ended up saying the Pacers are going to pull this out. The Knicks, and again, we don't want to be prisoners of the moment,

and when you get spanked that badly in a playoff game, you walk away as an observer thinking, that team is cooked, and we should know better because these things can flip around real quickly. The problem is for the Knicks, they're just running out of bodies. I don't know if Ananovi has any chance of coming back in this series,

It doesn't seem like it's trending that direction. We don't really know how bad Brunson's foot is. He won't say anything. Tibbs won't say anything. You know, it's not just the Knicks. Most NBA teams are really cagey about injuries these days. It's annoying. Specifically during the playoffs.

Yeah, we have no idea what the state of his foot is. For all we know, they're going to like, you know, he's going to like five minutes after their season ends, he's going to go for surgery. Like that happens in this league sometimes, and we don't know until it happens. but it doesn't look good. Brunson doesn't look like himself. He's running on fumes. They've all played a bazillion minutes.

And the rotation is tight. They're down Randall, they're down Bogdanovich, the down Mitchell Robinson, they're down Ananovi. It's a lot. Like, you just can't. Roger, actually, I was thinking about this yesterday knowing we were going to pod today.

I said I was thinking about the lies that you all tell us. Players and coaches tell us the media, lies being things like we say, oh, you guys are really banged up and it's like, you know, you get the Tibby and kind of like, we've got more than enough to win. Or next man up. Like, bullshit. The next man up wasn't playing before for a reason. The guy in front of him who just went down was better than him.

So that one's a lie. We're injured, but we can still gut this out or whatever. You know, if you're, if you put on a jersey, you're healthy enough to play. Bullshit. Like, guys play at 50% sometimes. Like you guys lie to us constantly. Can we just admit that when the Knicks tell us in the wake of the last several days, oh, you know, this and that, we can still.

They're lying, right? Yeah. Why the fuck you lying? Why you're always lying? I think, yeah, Howard. Hey, man, listen. Sometimes you got to tell the company lying, man, and get out there and put that good face on for the camera. But yes.

I mean, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, when you guys do lie, though, is it like, all agreed upon? Like, is your PR person like, hey, or your coach like, hey, I'm going to fucking lie. No, we're not going to tell the media, don't tell the media that the guy's getting his foot sawed off tomorrow. Yeah. When you're a young pup, when you're a young pup, they might have those conversations. Once you're, you know, once you're a grizzled vet, man, you already, you know. Once you're a season liar. Yeah, you're good. You're like, all right, man, I got this. We'll go out there and tell half truths.

But I do think there's a little bit of nuance in the one where like, hey, next man up, right? And I think it pertains to this next team. That's the conversation when you're losing like starters and you have six men of the year type of players coming in at like six and seven. Like bona fide guys that can start on other teams. I might tell you that and it could be true. But once you get down to like missing four rotational pieces. Yeah. It's not the same, right?

So that would be the only caveat to that. And the thing is, like, listen, the Knicks have been incredible, like absolutely incredible. How many times could we have written them off, not even just in the playoffs, but before that with the number of guys they've lost and the way that they keep patching it up. And to their credit, the next man up thing has kind of worked and been more true than not for them. But there's a limit to that.

Like, you can't keep losing bodies and your best player can't be as banged up as Jalen Brunson seems to be and still survive. The Pacers were already younger, faster, deeper. I don't know that they were better. I think the Knicks at full strength were the better team coming into all this and certainly had more playoff experience. But given the state of the Knicks right now versus what the Pacers have, I just, I think that's a lot to ask.

And the Pacers, listen, Halliburton, maybe a little deer in headlights game one at the garden, maybe it was his back, whatever it was. He has been incredible the last three games. been phenomenal, almost flawless. And so even if you wanted to say, like, the Knicks have the upper hand because two of the next three, if it gets to seven or at the garden, and the Pacers are the younger team with less experience, and this is Halliburton's first postseason, they don't look, they don't look daunted now. Like, they've settled in. They're good. They know what

they're doing. They've been able to push the tempo and take advantage of the Knicks, I think, being on fumes. And yeah, I think the Knicks are in trouble at this stage. And by the way, because as you guys know, I hate predictions, so I will just hedge away again. It won't surprise me if the Knicks pulled this out because this is who they are. But I don't think that's where this is going. Roger, we know the blueprint for the Pacers, you know, winning game five, you know, try to run them out of the building, literally run them out of the building. Is the play here for the Knicks and, you know, I'm going to, you know, double back on what Howard said in the chances of the Knicks winning.

Is the, do the Knicks, do they need guerrilla warfare in this? Do they need to just be in, I'm going to, we're going to just try to kick your ass and be physical and make this a very low scoring affair. Is that their only shot at this game five right now? Yeah, I think it's a, it's a lunch pill hard hat type of, type of game that you've got to drag the Pacers down into. And I said that and then the Knicks beat them playing their game in, what was that? game yeah game two uh but uh what you saw and why it's got to be that now more than more than before

for me logan is they just looked so gassed and so tired yesterday as a team the nix it just looked now some of that you're just getting you know boat raced and so you know the human emotion is going to let down and you're going to look but they looked they looked tired they looked like the pace of this series, the minutes that everyone's log in, is catching up in some degree. So if we're going to, you know, play again tomorrow night, I would say controlling the pace becomes critical. The same way I told you, the Pacers,

if you don't win running up and down the court and flying around, don't worry about it. Just keep doing it. Just keep doing it because eventually they're going to run out of legs. They can't, they won't be able to keep up. And you'll make it all up on the back end. And so, yeah, they have to, but I don't think that the piece is, like Alec Burks, Alec Berks was my rook in Utah.

That's a professional score. Yeah. Even when he was a rookie, he was a professional score. Oh, absolutely, good dude. But I don't know that he's the type of guy. I don't know that he's the type of guy that, like, you're expecting to go out there and just play bully ball with people. Do you know what I mean?

Like, that's not his style of play necessarily. Also, Raja, when I saw him in, when I saw him come in, I think, in game three, the first person I thought of was you was when we always talk about on real ones, how you don't want Alec Berks being the person that is carrying your offense on a night and night out basis, right? He was a leading to score last night or yesterday afternoon. Like, that shows where the Knicks are. Yeah, it's not good.

Look, I'll go back to this. And I know, but I thought about it. It kind of like took over my world on Saturday. I really think they should have sat Jalen Brunson in game three. I know they got close. I know they got close. And I'm the same dude who was having no part of the Lakers not playing to win the first play in game. So I know how this sounds contradictory to most people.

But I would have sat him. And you're going to tell me it was right there. Roger point shaving bill. You could have told. But what did they do ultimately? ultimately they lost and I'm just saying like you you you're not playing in the regular NBA world when you've lost that many people when you're down that many people you're looking at two games and saying which one do I have a better chance of winning and it's hard to do I get

it it's so out of the box that I don't even believe it half the time but then I go back and I'm like yeah that makes sense to me Raj like what you're trying to win one of the two which one do I have a better chance of winning I'm going to throw my exit number two because you're losing one I was on, I can't remember who I was talking to on Friday on somebody else's show. And they were saying, hey, what do you think of this idea of? And it must have just been circulating through all the shows because I wasn't obviously on with you guys that day. But they said, oh, what about the idea of the next just punting the game?

And I said that's insanity. Like in the playoffs, punting a game, because you don't know what's going to happen the next game, right? Foul trouble, another injury, by the way. Whatever? What's that? Roder's double it down on this. No, no, I'm listening. I think it's fascinating because Russia,

don't we always talk about in this league, like how, you know, you can't, well, there's, there's like the mystical stuff like, you know, don't fuck with the basketball gods, don't like, whatever. But there's also just the very fact of playoff games, things sometimes turn on the slightest little thing. You can't predict the day to day. And if you're punting game three with the idea that we'll be,

we'll be healthier in game four and we'll be fine. then like okay cool but what if brunson doesn't feel much better on sunday than he did friday and then what if he gets in the game and he's fine but yeah now devincenzo turns his ankle or something like i just it seems to me like you're you're tempting fate and by quote unquote giving away a game punting um in a best of seven series like you just can't afford to do that if you're a great team if you're just stacked and you want to rest one guy for the back end of the series that's one thing, but that's not the case in this series. They're too tightly matched. I know you can't do that if you're the Knicks, right? I know, I know this. But under everything

that you just said, I would check agree, right? Under a set of circumstances where the deck wasn't already stacked against us, we've already lost to the gods of fate. We're down four rotational pieces. We're not playing in the world where I'm worried about tempting them anymore. I've already shit on me. Yeah, the basketball gods have already basically like, they've shit on me. So now I'm trying to play the game of like, okay, um,

this is purely numbers, right? And the percent chance that we run in there under man after losing Ananobe, Jalen Brunce's foot being as sore as it is or was after that game. I just, I don't have the numbers. Like I'm sorry with the analytics, but the amount of times that we're going to win

that game. And kudos to the Knicks, they should have won the fucking game. But guess what? They didn't. And so now we're still sitting there in the same world where I'm saying you were going to lose it anyway. I might have, I could make a case. And I made, I've been working it out all weekend where, you know, in this world, it wasn't the one that I played in where I know you can't do that in. I might have been that crazy person in the office saying, just sit him. Let's take a swing at game four because the reality is if he's not good in game four, we're two regardless. I don't think there were many worlds in which they won game.

They played as they did everything they could do in the situation they were in. And what happened to him in game one in Indiana? They lost it. You couldn't have done anything more to win that game and you still lost it. So for all those reasons, I'm still standing here saying, I probably would have fucking sat him. and I know, listen, I feel you, I don't even believe it myself half the time. But the other half of the other 51% of the time, I'm like, I would have sat him. I think that as this series wears on, and I'll just, I'll put a bow on this one.

There's a series wears on. And by the day, the Indiana Pacers are becoming more and more and more of the favorites to win in the series. Just because more confident. more yeah more wind you know like they they are just they have the legs they have all of that so like this is a big big game this is probably i think game five could possibly be the series right i think the series of the series is ogy and anobie if he ain't back i don't i think the pacers whether it's in the next two or over the course of it figured out if ogy comes back i really believe that's the series that body that that that that that level

of player and his availability as a body in their lineup. I think it's that critical. Well, last question I do have for Howard. Tom Thibito has obviously been, and I know this is a different set of circumstances with all the injuries, a lot of people have to play. But Tom Thibodeau has obviously been criticized for his, let's say, his minutes allocation practices. How much of that would be fair in this postseason run as a person. post the last post season's runs where he's just he's running dudes uh you know every time you see his spot scores 40 minutes here 40 minutes there how much would that be to blame in this particular instance it's so hard to say i mean it's an easy thing to grab and it's not even and i'm not saying

it's easy to grab and to be dismissive of it because it it might be relevant but that's the kind of thing where i'd have to go through and look at like everybody's injuries like some injuries are unavoidable, right? Some injuries are just like somebody undercut you or you land it on, yeah, you land on somebody's foot, a collision, whatever. And then there's like the soft tissue injuries that are like no contact or whatever and you look at it and you think the medical folks might will tell you that, okay, yeah, that might be a fatigue injury. So of the Knicks injuries that have affected them in this postseason, how many are potentially tied to fatigue? I don't know offhand. The NNNobie Hamst.

string is probably the first one you'd speculate on, but like, we're not, we're not qualified to know that. And I think a lot of these other ones were just, were incidents, you know, collisions and other stuff. So I'm not sure that's relevant necessarily in this case, but Tibbs has the history he has. And so it's always going to come up. Let's go to the Western Conference really quickly, because we have a mailbag to respond to. The series is 2-1 and Dallas, going back to, or not going back to Dallas, but game four will be in Dallas. We have seen Dallas become this team of two scores with the emergence of Kyrie as a, not even as a postseason player in this stage, but he's become this number, this number two

option in a way where he has just been, it's kind of a Kyrie Renaissance in the sense that we just haven't seen him play at this level in a second. What have you seen from his play, Raja, and how does it really help this Mavericks team thus far in this series? What I've seen from Kyrie is a real understanding of what a 1B needs to be, which is a very effective but still complementary score. And I've seen Kyrie. this year understand the nuances around that

better than a lot of 1B type of players do. They're frequently on 1A's toes. And there's a little bit of an overlap. It gets funky. I've seen Kyrie this year just sit and wait for quarters,

halves of games, even in the playoffs. And then when he senses that Luca needs it, he erupts. Right? And so he might not wind up with 50

because he wasn't cooking the entire game. but boy, that 27 with 21 in the second half looks like vintage Kyrie. So that's what I've seen from Kyrie on the offensive end. I think the understanding of when to get in and when to get out, kind of double dutch. You know what I mean? Logan, the rope spinning, the rope spinning, the rope spinning, the rope spinning, the rope spinning,

and I'm bopping, I'm bopping. Oh, I'm in. And then how to get back out. And I think he's playing that role fantastically. this year. You know, you didn't ask me. Could you double dots, Roger? Could you double dots?

Were you a good double-dutch? I never, I probably could not. I never tried. Okay. I tried once and I got hit in the face by the rope and I just. Yeah. Yeah, that looked a little confusing.

That one where you jump in? When you first jump in, that is treacherous. That's scary. Look, first of all, would you consider yourself? Like, I'm not like a fantastic dancer. Like, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I got the rhythm of like. I got gigs. I'm not going to lie.

Okay. Well, you might be straight. But someone like me would look at that and be like, yeah, I'm not, I'm, mm-mm. No, I'm probably not going to get in there. But Kyrie's certainly doing it. And he's doing it at a high level. And I think that's what, you know, especially in playoff games, you know, and that's what, like, we just talked about Minnesota and then that's what they, you know,

that's what Carl Anthony Towns needs to perfect. Like if aunt needs those breaks or for organic reasons like foul trouble or what have you, where he just goes cold. Now, Cat is consistent enough to just pick that up and run with it in a way that supplements. And Kyrie's doing that at a really high level. I think it's one of the more impressive aspects of what the Mavericks have done and what Kyrie has done. If you want to go back to like this last, however many decisions Kyrie has made in his career, he left the best player in the game.

He said he demanded a trade away from LeBron James. unprecedented, not just with LeBron, but anybody. Who does that? Who's winning championships and going to a championship, but going to three straight finals and saying, you know what? I'd rather do something else. I don't know what he had in mind exactly. It's my guy, man. Didn't work out so well, to say the least. So he goes to Boston. Obviously, didn't work out well there. And he ends up joining with Durant and Brooklyn, didn't work out well there. I think by the time, he got moved to Dallas, there were a bunch of teams across the league that didn't want anything to do with Kyrie Irving. I can tell you that for a fact. A lot of people just not even wanted

to go down that road. And obviously, there was a lot of off-court stuff that happened in Brooklyn that maybe scared some teams too. But even just as talented as he is, even just on the basketball merits, people had their doubts about whether he could fit in, find a role that would make him happy, and just be, you know, maximize all of his incredible skills without necessarily having to be the guy, which is what it seemed like the point of the exercise was when he first wanted to leave LeBron. I need to go be the guy somewhere. And he has been the, Roger, you said it perfectly, but he's like the consummate number two right now. And not in a bad way.

Like there's like, we got to stop doing this thing. We're like, first of all, as Zach Lowe and I talked about recently, we need a better version of the Batman and Robin thing. like it's played out. But like there's no shame in being Robin. There's no shame in being Scotty Pippin. Like it's it's fine. You could win a lot of games and championships and earn yourself a lot of money and awards and accolades and legacy building, all that stuff. And there's, there is no shame in it, especially when you're playing with the guy of the caliber of LeBron James or Luca Donchich, like two of the greatest we've ever seen play the game. And credit to Kyrie. There's a lot of other things I will not see.

say credit to Kyrie about. But on this, credit to Kyrie for figuring out how to find a happy medium or maximize his incredible gifts as a score and passer. And like have the game like he did the other day where he had like eight, nine assists, didn't score that much. But it was really key for him to just be that threat out there and playmaker. So I think it's been, I think it's been really impressive. How much does ego where I was to keep players from being in the role they're supposed to be in? Yeah, I mean, the ego is probably the number one reason why

guys, at whatever point they are in their career, either can't let go of it, so they can't figure out how to be a piece of it or, you know, in some instances might not have enough of it. And so they can't ever achieve that the super, Superstar level, right? Because don't get it twisted. To be a star, there's a lot, there's a lot of ego that goes, you got to, there's got to be some, some real self-belief.

But I think specific to Kyrie, you know, I never, he never struck me as a guy who it was an ego issue with. I mean, Kyrie is, you ask an NBA player about skill level and ability with the ball. And he's going to be in most people's top 10 list, period. Point blank. Top five. Right. I said 10 just to because like where I'm saying everybody in the league, right? Like most people stop five.

Of like the stars, especially of the stars. Stars are like that. But he doesn't carry himself. Like I spent time with Kyrie. He doesn't carry himself like that. You know, there's not an obnoxiousness about that. He just, he's just pretty comfortable that he's really good like that. I think, you know, certain, and this is just my opinion,

but certain markets provide distractions for him that will indulge other parts of his personality and they get his focus off of purely the court. And I think Dallas is a good place for him because as a town, like it's a beautiful place to live in, but it's not New York, it's not like Boston. It's not that kind of market. And, you know, I think the focus

and the acceptance of like, kind of who he is because he is different. Like he's not the run of the mill cut from the same cloth, you know, person for that matter, not even basketball player. There's more room for that to breathe maybe, like, and just kind of, you know, got more land. You ain't on top of everybody. A real talk. I know it sounds corny and kind of off the beaten path, but, you know, you can be on your,

your ranch, if you will, and nobody's fucking with you in Dallas. I don't know if he lives on a ranch. But I think it's an interesting. But he was in Cleveland when this saga started. He didn't have problems in Cleveland, though. He didn't have problems in Cleveland with LeBron. But he left Cleveland. He wanted to leave.

He forced his way out of Cleveland. No, that's fair. But in the workplace, he was not a problem. And he wasn't having problems with media or anything like that. Yeah. But no, you're right. He did. I mean, I wasn't there when he did that.

But he certainly did. He sent himself down this path, like this jagged path of the last, you know, eight years or whatever starts with him deciding, I don't want to be LeBron's teammate anymore and go to the point. finals every year, which, you know, a decision that I still don't understand. Listen, I don't get that. I don't get that one either. Because, to your point, even if you want to call him Batman or whatever you want to call them, not only are you winning championships and everything's, you're still better than 90%

of the rest of the players in the league. You were 1B or number two on the championship team. That, I mean, pretty good. So yes, I didn't understand that one either, Howard, for sure. Yeah. Well, it's been interesting to see him on the Mavs. And I really like this team. I think that if they can get through this series, there'll be an interesting out in the Western Conference Finals. We'll see. Okay.

Time for motherfucking mailbag. Kerm, what is good. How you doing, pal? It's Monday, I know. Let's up, let's up. You know, it's a Monday morning. Let's get in, get out. He got the quiet storm to hear a voice on right now.

Bullshit. Yeah, don't come here on some bullshit. Don't come here with that weak shit. Don't do that. What you want for me, Roger? We're out here rolling, bro. Get some bass in your voice, bro. Yeah, step up. Let's go.

All right. I'm up. Okay. Let's get it. Damn. Yeah. All right. Roger want people to come fight him at Monday in the morning to gain his respect.

Just like. All right. You want it or not. Do you want it or not? I need energy, man. Let's go. All right. All right.

All right. First questions from Patrick. He says hi, Logan, Howard, and Raja. You can say hi to me too, but that's fine. My name is Patrick. I live in Nashville. I hate it, but still wish the Memphis Grizzlies would move back to Vancouver. Is there any chance of that happening in the near future?

Thank you for your time. I can tell you that every media person who covered the NBA during the Vancouver era would vote overwhelmingly. No disrespect to Memphis. Before you get to your point, I am so jealous of you to that point, Howard. They got to get on a West Coast swing, Vancouver, Seattle,

Portland, the Bay Area in L.A. It's disrespectful, man. Fuck. So's nice. Oh, it regards my gears. Although those were always like one and back, right? You rarely hit both, so occasionally, but you rarely hit both cities because it was so close

the NBA would do like the, you know, one game and return. But Vancouver is a gorgeous city. It was not a great NBA market at the beginning. I think it would be a much better market now. I did attend. There was a preseason game. Logan, were you there when the Warriors played that game there in the preseason?

No, I played the Raptors in 2016. Yeah, yeah. So I went up, I can't remember why I went out for that one, but I went out for that when I was working on something. And crowd was great. I would love to see Vancouver back. But like, you know, clearly, like if the NBA is adding teams or moving teams like Seattle and Vegas, we know, are probably top of the list.

And would they go back to Vancouver at some point? I have no intel on this. I think they're in a much better position now than they were when they obviously lost the Grizzlies. But man, I don't think we're seeing that any time soon. Maybe the NBA can sense some preseason games back there, though. Yeah, that'd be great. Shout up to Cassfield, though. I know you hate it, but the hot chicken is great.

Next question. I actually lived in Nashville for a quick second for like three weeks. Never been. All my family lives in Nashville. Yeah, Nashville. Shout out, Patrick. Shout out Patrick. Haddy B's, man.

Haddy Bs for real, for us, some good hot chicken. Next question from Phil. He says, what's good fellas? It had an exclamation point and question mark, so you know, I had to give the energy. Long time fan and listener, long time Raja Bell fan. first-time Real One's mailbagger writing to you from the hometown of burgeoning NBA superstar

Shea Gildreder's Alexander from Hamilton, Ontario, not Toronto. Yeah. I'll try and keep it short as he writes a whole essay. Parity has been... We're past that, my boy. He says parody's been cool and all,

but do we miss the super teams and dynasties that have defined so many memorable past eras of the league. I won't lie. I love watching guys in their prime want to win so bad they'd forego

being the man and go team up with other stars. I miss watching aging superstars give it the old college try and form their own retirement age hoop avengers. And lastly, I just feel like dynasties in particular

gave the league as a whole more of an identity and made it more inviting for newer fans and casuals since these players and teams had become household names even outside of basketball fandom. What are your thoughts?

My first thought, Phil, is much respect to you for the fandom and all of that. But boy, you can't start it with like, let me be quick and get a quick question in and then just have that, have that, like, have the screenplayed. It's

Kerm just read off, bro. Fuck me, man. Howard, we've talked about this before. I do miss dynasties, Bill. Shout out to Hamilton straight out. I do miss dynasties. I've heard you talk about it. You've got more insight into it

into what the league's doing and how it's better without it. But my fandom, my youthful NBA, first-time watcher, hook me and sink your hooks into me and I'm a lifelong fan misses the dynasties. And that's the thing, right? Like most people, depending on your age,

Like everybody grew up on a dynasty, right? Like guys of my age are still referring back to whether it's Celtics and Lakers and that rivalry in the 80s or the 90s, or the 90s bulls. If you come up at a certain era, it's always like the Shack of Kobe Lakers or maybe the Spurs. Dynasties have to find this league almost for its entire history. The 70s are the only decade without a dynasty. The 40s had the George Mike in Lakers even at the beginning. innings of the NBA. And then, of course, the Bill Russell Celtics. The 70s are like this really strange period. 80s, Celtics and Lakers, 90s, bulls. So all the way through and then through

the Warriors dynasty. And if you want to say the Warriors dynasty is still kind of lingering because they won one two years ago and the principles of that dynasty are still there, you could say that, but we've had like, whatever, it's been five straight years with a different champion crown. and that hadn't happened since the 70s, the one decade when we had no dynasties. It's a love-hate thing, right? Like, for the league, it's really great to have dynasties because, and I think the emailer said it right, like casual fans who are the ones who constitute the big part of that ratings bulge in the spring, they're coming because they know who Steph and LeBron are.

and they may not have been as familiar on the upswing with, say, Yokic. They probably were familiar with Yonis by that point, and they should have been familiar with Yokic too, for that matter. They should definitely be familiar with Lukashch. But, like, we're in our own little weird, you know, NBA bubble here where, like, I think it's hard for us to get a sense of, like, what casual fans, casual sports fans, who they do or don't know. You know, Yokich only recently started doing all these commercials for, like, a couple different

brands. And so, like, you at least see him. But that recognizability matters. Having somebody to either love or hate, because dynasties are polarizing. Like, you either get sick of them and you want somebody to take them down, or you love what they're doing and you want it to keep going. And if you have a different champion every year, parity's good for all the individual markets, but is it good for the NBA as a whole and ratings in June? I don't know. The NBA trying so hard to be the NFL when they should just lean into what they already are. And, you know, that's kind of the, that's where I see it. I'm with both of you guys.

I think dynasties are great for the league. Just the familiarity of people, you know, like you guys just said, like, people want to, people who tune in June, they want to see Steph, they want to see LeBron, they want to see these guys. Are they, whoever the star is that is consistently getting there, they want to see that. And I think that we should, I think the NBA should. I think the NBA should lean into that more, and I think that we're in a better place.

I echo all of your sentiments. What's the next question? All right. Last question is from Colton. He asks, how do you all see the difference between guys who score a lot, but may not have a full package in parentheses. They list Shaq as an example.

You know, he dunked that shit. And guys who are pure scores, like, say, he has in parentheses here Kevin Durant you know he shoots from everywhere do you think there's a difference between

those type of scores and who would you say are the five who are the five of the best pure scores in the game today there's a lot of questions yeah they're doing a lot they're doing a lot today oh man I don't that's a big

that could be as big a question as you want it to be I am not a quote unquote bag guy. I think it's part of the culture that I actually don't love. That because someone doesn't have

an arsenal of dribble moves and creative stepbacks that they're scoring as somehow less appreciated is a funny thing for me. I actually think it's the opposite.

I think you're a better fucking score if you don't need all of that. Like if you literally, you literally just can't stop Janus from scoring. Like, why do you need it? So I think that's, the question is very large. For me, it doesn't, I don't draw a line between a guy being able to kind of be an offensive, you know, chameleon like KD at times and then a guy who's got to do it a certain way to get

the buckets, but they wind up with essentially the same amount of buckets. It doesn't mean that there's no real difference for me. The goal isn't to have a bag. The goal is to win, right? straight up. That's that's the distinction. And I hate to drag Kyrie back into this. And again, Oh my God. No, I'm going to. I'm going to. Everything I just said about him five minutes ago, stands. What he's doing right now is great. But, Raja, you would have to agree with me on this. Kyrie was the consummate bag guy, right? Yeah, for sure. He's bad guy. Look at all the stuff he's got in his game.

Right? And on talent alone, you'd say this guy could be, should have been. one of the greats of all time. We are not, he doesn't even have the all-NBA. I don't think he has a single all-NBA not. And it's because, it's not just because of off-court stuff. It's because sometimes the bag got in the way of him actually just being a good teammate or a good co-star with LeBron or a good co-star with Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown, whatever it may be. Other things, of course, got in the way too.

But the bag is, like, it's great. He's super fun to watch. He's amazing. He does things we've never seen any other NBA player do. But there's a difference between having great talent and being a great player. And the great player brings other things to bear like all the intangibles, your leadership, how you are as a teammate, how coachable you are, your attitude from day to day, all these are the things. And some guys have the bag, but don't have all those other things. And so what's the bag worth if you can't be a good teammate and you're not coachable and you're pain in the ass?

And I'm not saying those are the things about Kyrie, although those things may have applied to him at various stages. Yeah. I echo everything. Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, no, go on the Shaq thing because you're about to get in the bag. No, go ahead. No, no.

Well, yeah, like Shaq, first of all, Raja, I'm sure you'll back me up. Like, first of all, shack gets shorted by fans who think that all he did was just Doc. Oh, dude's out of the way and dunk. It's what they did. But, Howard, that's what they asked him to do. He could have done anything. Yes.

But he also had, he also had great footwork and was actually really light on his feet for a guy of his size. and there was some skill there, there was a jump hook, and there was, like, he could do other stuff. He actually had for a guy his size, he had a pretty good handle. But, you know,

also in Shaq's time, not like today with Yokic and Ambid and others who like get, who are allowed to do other stuff. Like Shaq came up at a time where it was like, you're the biggest guy, go get down there on the block and stay there.

So he didn't have the opportunity to expand his game and have the bag, even though Shaq would tell you he had, he had the bag, and he just wasn't allowed to use it. But, but there was more to his game that people give him credit for. It wasn't just dunking.

But also, if you had the opportunity to have Shaq or the 6-2 guy with the bag, you take Shaq every time because he's a really high percentage opportunity. And that's the goal. The goal is to get the ball in the basket. It doesn't matter how fancy you got it there. I'm here from all of the

millennial lingo from Howard. I don't think I've ever heard him say bag this much in consecutive sentences. What were you going to say, Roger? This may not happen again. I want to answer his question about the top five. What was the last part of his question? He asked, who are the top five best pure scores in the game today?

Best pure scores. I mean, that's a lot to break down right now. But let me allow me to attempt, see if you guys agree or disagree with me. Luca SGA K-D And these last two are going to be interesting because they're not going to fit the mold of the other ones that I just told you. Joel Embed

He's a bucket, man. Inside, outside, like he's a bucket. And Janice. For different reasons. No man to Edwards. Yeah, I was going to say, no. What's the case for not- Because I could only get five.

And I think that I would trust, I think Luca SGA and KD, as far as dudes off the bounce. Like are the, I think they're the, I mean, we can debate it, but there's some bad boys. And then Janice and Joe, I don't know who, I mean, I don't know. I just, I think if there was, if you said five if you said top 10

and it makes my list top five that's my list you could beg the argument for me to kick SGA out and put Ann in his place okay right now but I don't have any other I don't have any other critiques of your list

other than I thought Anthony Edwards is going to be in there I think Kyrie has to be in the conversation doesn't Kyrie does yeah I mean SGA did average 32 I mean like like like I mean he averaged 30 again

name this year. I mean, look, if, if, uh, if Kyrie were to put himself back in a position or was put in a position where it was like, send him to, you know, I don't know, who's our most Godforsaken team, uh, the Wizards. Yes. Send him to the Wizards tomorrow and give him free rain. Kyrie's, you know, firmly back in the conversation because, yeah, because he's going to score 30 a night. Yeah. Well, Charlotte at least had lamello ball when he's occasionally healthy in playing. So anyway, that was my attempt at it. I don't, I don't really love Lish. You guys know me. I don't love ranking stuff, but we gave it a shot for, uh, you like rankings as much as I love predictions. Right. Correct.

Jeez. Oh, man. Man, Howard has officially scared me off from doing predictions. I like, even during the podcast where I'm like about to like, hey, so what do you guys think? I just get, I just, I just get scared and I just give up. I'm like, no, let's go to the next topic. Um, anyways, that has been another edition of Motherfucking Mondays with Howard, Motherfucking Beck. we'll see you guys on Friday you can catch all these great anecdotes and all these great answers

if you just go to and send an email to Real onesmailbag at gmail.com Real onesmail back at gmail.com Real onesmail back at gmail.com. Kerm is nodding his head and I feel good about that. Let's wrap this thing up.

It's getting a little loopy. Talk to you guys on Friday. All the shits. Bye.