The Ringer NBA Show - Title Contender Tiers, Plus the First Suggestion Box | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

Justin, Rob, and Wos reveal their tiers of teams they believe have a shot at the NBA title (3:04). Then, they read our listeners' emails and debut the suggestion box (52:43). We want to hear from you! Email us at [e-mail] Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, this is Rob Harvilla from 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, the world's greatest loopy and perverse and inaccurately named music nostalgia podcast. We're doing 90 songs now because there's too many songs. Pearl Jam, JZ, Jewel, YouTube, Cher, Hootie. These are just some of the names people yell at me on the internet because we're back. More great songs, more rad special guests, more loopy perversity. Join us once more on 60 Songs That Explain the 90s every Wednesday on Spotify. And welcome to group chat.

I am Justin Barrier and joining me the Pete Davidson and Emily Radikowsky of the NBA podcasting sphere. Big Waz, Rob Mahoney. What's up, gentlemen? Who's who? Who do you think you are? I don't answer that. I'm certainly not Pete Davidson, man.

Because I ain't never been that lucky in my whole life. I promise you, this man is talk about outkicking the coverage. It is insane what that guy is doing. It's a heater. You know what? It's like if dating were Linsanity. That's Pete Davidson right now. Well, I don't think you're the only one who has that reaction because I was surprised when that happened because I was watching that game.

And I immediately bring up Instagram. And I feel like every NBA sponsored account was either posting that or posting on the other corresponding accounts about that, which was one of the weirdest, thirstiest moments, I think, in the NBA, in team-sponsored NBA social media history.

That's just bait, you know? That's low-hanging fruit for the social managers out there. You gotta do it. But the Knicks, though, in fairness is what they do. They do that celebrity cam

at every single game, right? And legitimate celebrities like Denzel and, you know, Ben Stiller and those type of cats they're legitimately doing it all the time. But yeah, I saw that on the New York Knicks account. And I was just like, this, this is insane. This guy has the best publicist in the history of publicity.

You had the Nuggets Instagram chime in. Like, are they together? Really? It was so bizarre. And also just like a real caper on this bizarre moment of like company run social media accounts that like talk to each other and talk in a language that like, I don't think any real human talks like. Well, yeah, there's real humans who talk like it, but, you know, we can move on. Okay.

On today's episode, we are going to get into some title tiers. So I have asked our friends assembled here to put every team with a shot at the NBA title this season. and rank them by tiers. Also going to do our first edition of the long-awaited suggestion box. Thanks to everybody for sending in their emails. Once again, Suggestionbox, GC at gmail.com. So we'll read those off toward the end here. I should know we're recording this on Tuesday afternoon.

So if anything happens Wednesday night, that's why things might be a smidge dated. But here we go. We ready for the title tiers, Rob? Yeah, I'm curious. How many teams did you guys even rank? Like, how many teams do you think are worthy of entry in this conversation? I have about 10 because I really went with the idea of even a 1% chance of a title is included in this.

But if I'm being honest with myself, I think five, maybe six actually have a shout at the title. That's it. Well, I think one of the interesting parts about this is this is probably the most wide open title race in recent memory. I honestly can't think of one that's been more like this. And as we're kind of going through the first month plus of action year, that's kind of the biggest question I have. I don't know about you guys. It's just like, who is the favor? Who are the favorites? It's just like, it's so competitive this year. It's really interesting. Yeah, there's a bunch of teams, too, who are high in the standings or high by point differential or high by some other

indicator. I don't know what to do with the Indiana Pacers. I don't know what to do with the Sacramento Kings or the Utah Jazz. Like, are those? are those contending teams? Because some of the metrics say they are. No. No. They don't count. No, they're not.

They're not. I could understand if you're a player on one of those teams or a fan of one of those teams and we're out here talking about like the Sixers as potential title contenders. And you're saying, look, the Pacers have outplayed them to date. You know, like some of these other teams have outplayed them to date. But that's just the reality of kind of where the standings are right now with so many teams jumbled up, so many teams with similar records. I think we're just going to have to split some hair.

and try to figure out how to like parse this this really deep pool of potential contenders, I think. Yeah, it's a good segue too, because I think another part of this is there are a lot of teams with the depth to paper over some of the losses that have happened this far. And that has been kind of the key difference, I think, for a lot of teams and being at the top of the standings are being kind of mired in the middle there. Let's start it this way. How many teams do you guys have in your first tier? Wise, what do you have? I got three. To me, it's the Celtics, the Bucks, and the Golden State Warriors.

To me, those are the three best teams in the NBA. And I say the Warriors, because when their most important players play, they're as good as the Bucks and the Celtics, right? Some of the stuff that we've seen rotationally, some of the stuff that we've seen with young guys, the defense has been such, you know, it's been piss poor. Jordan Clarkson, excuse me, Jordan Poole, I keep messing those two. That that far off these days, but yeah.

Jordan Poole has been not up to snuff. He's kind of regressed since last year in his play. I don't think he's a worst player than last year. That's not how players his age, how their careers tend to go. So I think when their best guys are playing, they're as good as anybody. It's just been the stuff with playing, you know, wise men, And some of these other guys to start the season has put their numbers and their record in such a rut that I understand why it would be hard or why it feels muddled looking at them and saying, whoa, that's a championship team. But to me, come on, man.

Like, if the game started counting tomorrow, we would put Golden State up there with anybody. Yeah, they have to be in the upper tiers. I'm not quite in the, like, for me it's two teams in the top tier. It's the Bucks and the Celtics. They're the two best teams to date. Everyone else is trying to fight for a seat at that table, and the Warriors are included for that, even when they are basically a 500 team right now.

But you're right. As soon as the games matter, you trust that core, you trust that lineup. Clay's shooting has been a lot better of late. He's starting to finally catch on. Their bench problems aren't totally fixed, but there's like enough guys having moments.

They're not at all fixed. But like Jonathan Cumingo will have a nice game. Dante DiVincenzo have a nice game. And honestly, that's where the bar is. Like, just have good moments and that'll be enough. Like, Steph has been that good. The core is that good. All they need is, like, a little bit of help.

And I think we're seeing them at least trend in that direction where if they're not tier one, they have to be tier two. Yeah, I feel like the answer to the Warriors' problems is pretty obvious at this point. And they've kind of already taken the steps to bring about the solution where it pretty much became Young Guy Hunger Games. And it looks like Jonathan Camingo won. Weisman is now in the G League. Moses Moody is pretty much out of the rotation.

They pretty much said, we're going to play the guys who are going to help us win games now, and that's what going to be the priority. I don't know what that means for, like, the two-track approach that we've heard so much about for two years running now. But, like, they're definitely on the pathway to figuring that out. And I wonder if they just have a couple more games in this lineup. We'll be talking about them as a surefire team in the top tier. I don't have them in the first three tiers. I'll be honest.

What? Do you have three? Golden State in the first three tiers? So I did this little different. My first tier, which is the favorites, I have no teams. Because I think this year, I think this year is the type of year where there isn't a clear cut with a bullet number one, number two team. I think even the Celtics. Well, even the Celtics. So I also grouped these kind of by theme a little bit.

So I kind of probably a little too cute with it. So my second tier is the Celtics, box, sons. the three best teams probably record wise, performance wise, thus far this season. But all of them have a significant injury concern where you could quibble and basically say, well, if the Celtics don't have Robert Williams, do they have enough defense to win the title? When you, the Bucks, let's see them with Chris Middleton for a game, let alone like a week or a month or even a playoff series. And the Sons obviously haven't had Chris Paul.

And so is that crazy? You guys are reacting to this like it's a crazy. a little crazy, I'll admit. Well, the idea that there's no favorites, I mean, for me, to me, the team that has their shit most together is Boston, right? Like, they've put together this record despite Rob Williams. They have the point differential. Their best player is playing at an MVP level.

And, you know, the more did I look at it because, okay, so I said, to me, like Boston, Milwaukee and Golden State feel like the teams that I can trust the most in a postseason setting. And then the next tier of teams for me were teams that I thought could get to the playoffs like reasonably healthy, right? But then it's like that even starts getting muddled. But my teams were Phoenix, New Orleans, Cleveland, and Memphis. So this is your second tier. Yes. And obviously I know Denver is my championship pitch. for the year, but like, I haven't felt confident watching Murray play and watching Porter Jr. Who's missed some time with some nicknacks.

It's like, if those guys aren't going to be anything close to full strength and playing in the way that they did pre their prolonged absences, you know, the Denver proposition becomes way less attractive. So because they got two guys, right, I was like, man, you know, I got to take them a tear down. but, you know, Phoenix with Chris Paul, New Orleans with Zion and Brandon Ingram. Like, these guys miss time all the time. But it feels like, you know, they're younger guys and they can get to the postseason reasonably healthy. And so, yeah, that's how I pick my second tier.

What do we want to do with this project? Like, do we want a consensus tier? Because I don't know what to do with Justin's avant-garde tier-making bullshit. I think it's whatever you want. I think we can agree. Like, okay, we're all in agreement that whatever the best tier of existing teams is, the bucks and the Celtics are on it, correct? You get my point, though.

Like, the top, I don't think there's like a clear world beater, which is why I'm leaving the first tier empty. But yes, for the sake of consistency. There's no team that's playing as well as Golden State of Phoenix were last year at this time. Exactly. But how about this? the Celtics are blowing the doors off the league in a season where offense is booming. Like teams are scoring and they are just head and shoulders above everyone else riding

the Marcus Smart point guard experience. Like everyone on their team is apparently hyper efficient now. I don't even know entirely how to square those things and why they're happening and how they're happening at the level that they are. But they're here. Like the Celtics have been that good to whatever the top tier is, they deserve to be in it. Also, let me pose this to you, Justin, because I think the Celtics and the Sons are a great sort of examples of each other. The Sons were coming off of a finals defeat last year.

The Celtics are coming off of one this year. I'm sorry, I like the Celtics way better than I ever did right now than I ever did at any point like the Sons last year. Right. There's just something about the Sons that just don't inspire a lot of confidence. And maybe I'm just being reductive. And the Celtics have these two huge, extremely skilled wings who are two-way monsters who are going to play 40 minutes a night in the playoffs. And I feel like that's a lot more reliable than whatever the hell it is, Phoenix is going

to decide to do by the time the postseason comes around. So to me, the Celtics are that kind of team, even without Rob Williams. Even in the playoffs, I think that. Yeah. I think to Rob's point, I guess I would turn it on its head and say that the Celtics offensive success, which has been blistering, I guess if everybody is shooting above their head and scoring above their head, is it as impressive as it would be in an era where that was an extreme outlier? It's still impressive, but I'm not going to overreact to them being first on

offense in a context where offense is booming. And I would just say, like, the defense is 14th overall in the league. And so I'm still a little worried, but overall, I probably have the most confidence in them, in particular coming off of last night. game, which is against the Hornets, in which, like, I forgot that Jalen Brown plays for this team because they're just so deep on the wings and so talented. And they're also so talented with veterans, which is different than a lot of these other teams you're mentioning, like the Pelicans, Grizzlies, who have a bunch of young guys they can kind of cycle through and figure out on the fly and develop on the flight. Like, they bring in Malcolm Brogden off the bench who has been,

like, the steady hand of multiple very good teams. And so, yeah, if we're going to rank, power ranked them within the tier, I put the Celtics one. But I'm curious, Rob, where you put the Sons, because I feel like that's the big distinction between Waz's and my two first tiers. Yeah, for me, the Sons are a tier two team right now. They haven't been as good as the Celtics of the Bucks. But among everyone else, I find them pretty convincing. And that's not because they've been like overwhelmingly amazing. It's that they've been rock steady, even without Chris Paul, even with guys in and out of the lineup. And to me, I'm looking at the Western Conference, and you laid it out, as we just don't know who's going to be healthy, who's going to be there in the end, which teams are going to have their

shit together in time. And so I'm looking at a field that's really jumbled. And a field where there's not really a team that we would think, oh, you know, like we've had those conversations previously, oh, this team with all this superstar talent, when they get to the playoffs, they're just going to outclass the suns in a head-to-head match. We've had that conversation over the last couple of years. I don't really see a lot of West teams barring like a fully operational Warriors group outclassing the suns. Like they just keep rolling.

It's what they do. And we haven't even seen them when they get Chris Paul back. We haven't even seen Chris Paul have a chance to maybe correct some really woeful shooting numbers to start the season. We'll see what he's got left. But Devin Booker has been unreal.

McHale Bridges has been really stepping up this season. I think we've seen some really strong performances, especially of late from D'Andre Aden, not to mention just the way that bench comes together. So I like the Sons a lot. I just don't see them as having proven something like the Bucks or the Celtics have yet. Well, what is it that the Bucks have proven that the Sons having? I don't necessarily disagree with you, but based on just the objective data, the Sons are the better team and the bucks of the team that's struggling on offense, dominion and defense.

And so, like, what is it for you that's making up the divide? I mean, the Bucks are the one team. So there's basically a couple of teams right now that can stop in. that can guard, period. I was going to say stop anybody, but that sounds too generous. Like everyone is having trouble guarding right now. The Bucks are the glaring exception to that.

Their defense has been great. The Suns have been really solid on defense, as has New Orleans, who also deserves this place in this conversation, as has Cleveland, which is also a really high-level defense. But I trust the Bucks defense the most. And they have this huge missing piece

that we have yet to see in Chris Middleton. And so there's just been enough, like, development in terms of, you know, Obviously, Janice and Drew, you know what you're getting from those guys. But Brooke Lopez having an incredible bounce back year and just getting enough from the periphery, like enough big Javon Carter games that you're just kind of like, okay, I can see the shape of what this looks like when Middleton comes back. And Middleton is the kind of guy.

He's not a periphery guy on offense. He generates offense both in the playmaking sense and in creating his own shot. Like, it's everything. He's spacing for them. He's pick and roll initiation for them. He's pressure valve at the end of shot clock type of guy for them. He does a lot of that. And, you know, when you finally mixed that with, you know, the healthy diet of Drew Holiday,

just bullying the hell out of people every now and again where he's just like, oh, wait a minute. There's a guy that's like three inches shorter than me guarding me right now. I'm just going to stick my damn forearm in his chest and get to the rack. Like, you know, and of course you mix that. with what Janice does, and it gets their offense to competent. It's not going to look as nice as Boston or when Phoenix really has it rolling at any point this year.

That's not going to be a thing that happens for the Bucks. But once they get their stuff to a baseline, the defense is so dominant, which, again, as Robert said, they've already shown in Spades this year. You know, I think the Middleton thing, to be able to do all of this without him is very, very impressive because he's very important. So the Bucks's issue is on offense. They have Chris Middleton who could potentially solve that pretty quickly, whereas the Sons, we don't know.

There are probably bigger issues that they probably can't even answer until the playoffs, if we're being honest. Yeah, their biggest issue is like they just kind of hit their head in the playoffs at a certain point and bump up against that ceiling. And Chris Paul coming back post-injury at his age isn't necessarily what we would expect to fix that. So maybe they just have it with another breakthrough from Devin Booker. Like maybe that's what they needed and we'll see when we'll see when we're get there. But for now, I feel okay with them as a tier two team. Okay. Who else is in your second

tier, Rob, because we got Waz's second. Waz and I are aligned on Cleveland. I think they've got to be there given what they've been today. That's an elite talent in terms of an overall group, a great starting lineup. They probably need to go through it a little bit first, just in terms of like some of the playoff battles to really, really think of them as like, oh, this is a team that's going all the way to the finals just yet. But I think they have a shot at like at a deep run. The tough thing for them is they've been really streaky. And they also have some pretty clear matchup issues. They beat Boston twice, but they already lost twice to Milwaukee.

They already lost twice to Toronto, who's another really good team. I think we have to get to in this conversation at some point. I think the Toronto thing is instructive too. Because that game that they just played where OG is just, oh my God. Like, you know, we've made a lot of jokes about Mark. is smart winning defensive player of the year last year when he wasn't the best defensive player on his team. That ain't the case with OG, man.

This guy is, he's on another level when it comes to on-ball wing defense. And the stuff he was doing against Donovan Mitchell, and it's not just the 3, 4-11 or whatever, it's a bad shooting night. And some of those were decently clean looks that should have went in. But, like, OG, his help defense while also doing that to Donovan Mitchell, where he's scraping inside on other people's drives and like, no, I can leave Donovan Mitchell alone, recover, get fantastic contests, stay in front of him on a closeout drive.

Like, it was crazy watching OG do that. And I think what sort of mitigated that, that didn't mitigate, sorry, exacerbated that problem was that the bigs were in the paint too. So even if Mitchell could even get a little bit of daylight on, you know, the Supreme

Wing defender of our league, OG An An An Anobie, there's a clogged up paint with his bigs. And so I think in a playoff matchup against a defense like the Bucks, a defense like the Raptors,

they're going to need some pressure valves. They're going to have to like, not only they're going to have to make threes, they're going to have to make deep threes, you know, nicely above the break threes. You ain't getting cornered looks and all of that nice stuff you get to generate against these normal defenses.

That ain't going to happen. So I'm glad you said that about the matchups because I think teams that can, you know, keep pressure on Mitchell on the ball. And I don't think anybody's going to stop. him. I don't think OG necessarily stopped him, but he made his life so miserable. But, you know, talent-wise, I'll say it again, I think they're there. It's just some of this execution stuff will need to be figured out. Yeah. Would you call OG Supreme Leader?

He's the Supreme Defender of our league. Yeah. It's like you're giving him a rank on the Death Star. Well, you know, the thing is, man, here's the thing. I know a lot of people think of Kauai Leonard as the premier perimeter defensive player of, you know, his generation of, you know, his generation or the last few years. For me, it's Ron Artes. And that's who OG reminds me of. He reminds me of Artes. We should mention.

Yes, yes, yes. You know the bias, of course. But Ron was, he was so huge and strong. And not that Kauai wasn't, but OG reminds me of that, that physicality of making like you feel his body on you. So, man, it's really excited to watch him hoop right now. You hate Kauai Coms, too.

Yeah, because you can. You can't. You can't do it. Don't, don't, come on. Like, I don't want to do this again with the Toronto people. It's fine. I love Scottie Barnes. He is never going to be the offensive play that Kauai Leonard is. That's just, like, get that out of your mind. Please. All let me, let me take some. They just have a, no, they have a team of Kauai's. O.G. is Kauai. Scottie Barnes is Kauai. Pascal is slightly bigger Kauai. Fred Van Vleet is point guard, Kauai. All guys who I love, by the way. I don't have the cat. in the second tier.

Interesting. I'm not really a believer. I know all of the objective data suggests that they're an elite team, even despite some of their recent struggles. I'm a little worry that the team is too shallow. Like, I don't know if they have more than four good players, and I don't know if they know who their fifth best player is. Now, they've had some injuries.

Dean Wade is finally coming back to Earth. But, like, it's just like, where's the reliability after their top four, which is so good? And also, like, the defense falls apart. as we mentioned last pod, without Allen on the floor. They just say like a completely different team that's a bit lost there. And so I'm kind of in wait-in-see mode. I feel like they need to make another mover to fill out this roster

for me to really be a big believer. Let's just pray that they don't become the modern CP Lob City Clippers who would just destroy teams with their starting lineup. And because Doc decided to make himself GM, they could not fill out a roster to save themselves. and it hurt them year after year. But, you know, you go back and look at their lineup data when, you know, it was Blake, uh, um, J.J. DeAndre and Chris Paul, they would just blow teams out of the water.

And I think Cleveland, yeah, they have that type of talent to do that. Um, let's just see if they got step up. Help is on the way. We got Ricky Rubio coming back from injury at some point. There's your fifth player right there. Yeah, they trotted out Isaiah Mobley for. not insignificant amount of minutes last game, and I was like, this is getting a little bleaker than it should. I get it with the calves. I'm just more in wait and C mode, so I don't have them in my second tier.

That's fine. Respect. Do you want to hear some real sicko shit, though? Yes. Wow, I've never been more excited. The Pete Davidson chimes in. I still have the clippers in my second tier. Is that crazy? Oh, my God. Rob. I haven't been my third tier. What are we doing with the clippers? My third tier entitled These fucking guys. So yeah, continue.

Clippers, Brooklyn, yeah, yeah. I don't have a terribly sophisticated case. Look, here's the case. When Kauai's been on the floor, they blow teams out. He hasn't even been good yet. He's only played like five games. It's not great. But the fact that they're already a really good,

versatile defense even before getting Kauai back, I just see so much room for upward mobility there that I can't drop him. out. I can't give up on him yet. My thing about Kauai and the thing that gives me pause with all of this and it's just something I'm never going to be able to shake is he goes out with injuries

that can't be named. It's just general fucked up nearness. It's just like, okay. And what is like what is the hope that that will be remedied in any materially relevant

way? You know, it's hard for me. I just have a blockage with the clippers because of that. Like, when I can't name your injury, you know, to me that's even worse than when they, Paul George is out with a sore hammy, which notoriously tricky ass injury.

To heal, to deal with is super finicky injury. To me, Kauai stuff is even worse than that. And they got two guys with these complicated like headache injuries, you know, where it's like, you know, a guy tears is ACL, we know what the deal is.

You get your surgery, you do rehab, you show up in like a year, whatever, you start playing again. When a dude's hammy is just bothering him all season long, it's just like, yeah, sit down for a few games, and when you come back, we're going to pray it doesn't crop up again.

You know, and the same thing is happening with his knee. Kauai's not back to regular load management, which is pretty concerning. And I get the point Rob's trying to make here. When they have Kauai and PG, this is probably the best team. They're good. On paper, it's just like, I can't fucking do it, man. this team is just, I hate it.

I hate it so much. I can't even blame you. This is the thing is I have no rebuttal to that. I wouldn't blame anyone for dropping them down or out entirely from this tier exercise. So you're in the second tier. I haven't been the second tier. Yeah, my second tier to review is Cleveland, Phoenix, Golden State, and the Clippers. That's my second tier.

My third tier, which is, let's just call it the second tier for the second conversation, is the teams with a legitimate title hope. So I think that things have to go right for these teams, but I could see these breaking right over the next couple of months. I have the Grizzlies and the Nuggets. Wow, you really hate the Pelicans, don't you? You just, you, hate her! Hater!

I think if you want to talk about the Pelicans now, I lumped the Pelicans in there with the Cavs, with a team where it's like there's clearly something going on. here. I just need it to be sorted out over another month or two for to believe. I think the Pelicans have really established that their floor is pretty high. There's no way I could see this team not getting a top six seed, which is like a legitimate question coming into this season, right? It's just way too deep. But every time I watch the game, it's like Zion going off without CJ or Ingram or CJ carrying a team of scrappy defenders without Zion and Ingram. Then Ingram is out like each of them,

So Zion and Ingram both missed five games. CJ's missed three games and his were due to protocol. So that's probably just not a long-term thing to be concerned about. But like, I don't really have a finger on the pulse of the biggest concern about this team, which is like how these guys all play together and in particular on defense. And so I wonder if a lot of the success they're having is that they're just able to fill the void with these like high upside young guys who are all very, very good on defense. Like Dyson Daniels closed the game last night against the Thunder because he's just so good.

But like he's going to help on that end. And so like, I don't know. Like I really don't have a clear sense of what this team is going to be in a playoff series. And that's kind of how I base these rankings on. Yeah. For me with the Pelicans, it's that in a playoff setting, one, they've already shown in the regular season, that they're doing the thing that I was worried about defending at a competent level. Right.

So that was a huge question mark to me coming into the season when it's like Ingram, Zion and CJ got to get big minutes. And are these guys going to guard? They've guarded pretty competent. So I'm happy about that. How often are they doing that together, though? Together. And that's a fair point. And I think they have a versatile enough roster, which brings me to my point.

I think they've shown an ability to play decent enough defense. I think offensively, man, they got so many ways to beat guys. They have a legit juggernaut type of offensive talent over there. And so when you can beat teams multiple ways where you're not matchup dependent, like say of Cleveland that we talked about before, where it's like no matter who you're playing, you have ways to gash teams inside. You can fire away from three.

You got mid-range assassins. You got two mid-range assassins. If teams want to sluff off and run you off the three-based, point line. It's just, they have so many ways to dissect you, man. And in the playoffs, when you're making these type of adjustments against

an opponent and they'd be like, oh, you want to shut that off? All right, we'll turn this on. I really like what they got, man. I really do. Yeah, I think I'm still I'm probably further along on them than Justin is, but not quite on your level was in terms of I just need a little bit more

to push me over the edge. And some of that is seeing those guys together. And some of it, honestly, and this is like a very college football-ass thing to say is I'm still waiting for like a meaningful win from them. You know, like they beat the teams. They're supposed to be, they take advantage of lesser. Yeah, exactly, lesser and even average teams, even pretty good teams. But like they caught, you know, the warriors when they're not playing anybody.

They've caught teams with injuries and guys out. I just want to see them go head to head against someone really good with their full lineup to get a real sense of where they're at because I agree. like on paper, by the statistical indicators, by the lineup, this is a team that should be there. And just from the mental exercise of like, who is, what team is out there that has a matchup for Zion and Ingram and McCollum and even Valenciennes in that category.

And Jonas, you try to do your little small ball crap. He's going to kill you. Absolutely. And so like that part of it combined with the team defense. I just want to see a little more before we start putting them in the conversation with the Cavs and the Sons and some of that group. Yeah. I get it on paper.

It all makes sense on paper. And maybe it's only a matter of them having to play the games against the quality opponents that we're looking for. But the difference between them and a team like Memphis is I know what Memphis can do when they're fully altogether. And if anything, I think Memphis is a potential potter keg right now in a good way where I could see them. It's hard to see the sun's falling off the topsy just because of what a regular season

juggernaut they become even without Chris Paul. But like they're the gross stock, I think, of this entire exercise. size like their eighth on offense, 21st on defense, but finally have Jaron Jackson back earlier than I was expecting and he automatically looks spry and is jumping out onto guards and guarding them on the perimeter. And that's great to see. And then Bain comes back presumably within the next week or two. And I just think that's the team that could all of a sudden just put it all together. And like those pieces all make sense. It's like the thing we've always talked about with the Pelicans. Like where are they going to get the defense from with three offensive driven guys? Like Jackson is that guy for this

And so I'm very high on them, though admittedly it's a bit more future casting than it is based on recent results. Well, we haven't really talked about Desmond Bain enough because he's the guy who has kind of transformed the profile of their team a little bit, where if he is, if he is this kind of player, if he's a 25 point of game nightly star, that relieves so much of the pressure on Jaron Jackson Jr. in particular. And now Jackson can just be a defensive player of the year caliber guy flying around a really dynamic team defender and all the ways. as you just described. And you have Desmond Bain and Jock here in the bulk of your offense. You have Dylan Brooks as a wild card who's going to be jumping up

for some big point totals now and again in ways that you need. And ways that you don't need to. In both, you know. But you can see that falling into place where if they can just be as solid as they've already been offensively and get some of the fly around

like frenetic defense from Jackson being back full time, I think they could really have something. Yeah, and I think it's cool when roles settle amongst a young team or a new team and this is different but like, you know, I think the Hedels, for instance,

they took off when it was like, yo, D. Wade, like, you are not number 1A or B. You are B with a bullet. Right? And everything sort of fell into place. I think once Bain becomes the clear 1A to

Jaws 1A, those 15 John Starks-esque shots from Dylan Brooks, every single playoff game is just going to stop. You know, like the roles will settle and they will just become a better, more potent threat just from having a hierarchy established because Bain has gotten so much better in a way that's, you know, I'm really impressed by, man. The stuff that impresses me, like, he had, like, he has this weird, his jump shot is, is not traditional for somebody who shoots it is as offensive.

and as well as he does. So I was really skeptical of it, right? At first, but he's shown it. Like, he's a great shooter. My stuff is his off-the-bounce game has taken another, just a whole other level where, you know, not only is he seeking out getting to the paint where, you know, a lot of guys, they do their damn this to get there,

but he's finishing, he's drawing contact. He's doing the things that make you like, oh, snap. Like, if he's doing that off of the attention that Jaws able to draw, on his drives and around his picking rolls. Yeah, watch out for that. Yeah. And Jaws is just a superstar. We should just say that.

Yes. Zion is a superstar potential who very much could be that, maybe that. But Jaws, like a top 10 guy right now today. That's the difference between a team that I have confidence in and don't. Wise, I'm surprised we haven't heard you talk about your nuggets. Yeah. Well, here's the thing. It's funny, man.

I'm having the same issues two years in a row, right, where I'm just like, look, man, this team's going to be unstoppable on offense and they'll figure it out on defense. And in the case of the Hawks, they just never figured it out. They just straight up never played any defense. And I think a similar thing is happening with the Nuggets where their defense has not looked respectable yet. And maybe they'll get there, you know. But as of right now, they're not playing good enough defense to win a championship. Even when we get to the playoffs and Yokic is now monopolizing every possession and they

become completely unstoppable on offense again, you know, right now they're doing a sort of, you know, let people work their way into who they are. And Yokic doesn't feel like the type of guy that wants to go Westbrook, you know, on a season in the 40 percentage of usage, right? Like, he's just not hardwired that way. I think he has the switch when he understands, like, you know, in the extreme situation against Golden State where there's nothing, there's nothing else Denver can do. So he's like, all right, cool, I'll do it.

But to start the season, he's not. I think in the playoffs, he'll be much more aggressive seeking his shot, which will make them way harder to stop, right? But the defense just hasn't been there. And so, you know, the record is respectable, if not what I thought it would be. they're 13 and 7. They're currently 10th in point differential. But the defense, I'm starting to get concerned about it.

Yeah, I mean, they had to run a lot of zone the other night just to stop the rockets. Not good. That's just, that's tough. It was tough to watch. Remember when they brought in DeAndre Jordan as the backup center for defensive help? Let's talk about this because, yeah, okay, really, yes, their defense is a problem. the starters have not been and like various combinations of the starters

have not been great defensively but really a lot of their issue is their bench is a mess DeAndre Jordan can't stop anybody and if we had to correctly forecast the ultimate fate of the Nuggett season in the playoffs

it's starting to look a lot like they're going to have a winning differential in 40 minutes and they're going to get outscored in the eight minutes that Nicola Yokic is on the bench which is a very familiar story for them they just have not been able to crack that.

And it's not just a back-of-center issue. It's a bench composition issue. It's a combinations issue. Like Michael Malone's been putting mostly like Michael Porter Jr. When he's been healthy and out there with the second unit's all the time, I think you need like two plus starters with some of these bench guys. Like they just do not have it cohesively to be able to roll out, you know, four bench guys in MPJ.

That just isn't working. What's the Marcus Cousins up to these days? I wonder why they haven't brought him in. I don't see. I don't see how he could be worse than DJ when DJ clearly doesn't have it athletically. And DeMarcus Cousins is just on a basketball IQ. I'm not talking about DJ as an emotional intelligence or I'm sure he's a math whiz, whatever. On a basketball IQ level, they're not on the same planet.

So I don't know why they wouldn't give him a sniff when he was pretty good for them last year. I saw a Bob Myers interview recently where he got asked some question and somehow he turned it to to Marcus Cousins. And I guess he talked to Cousins recently and told him like, people don't know how you're going to react to things. So I think it's more of a behavioral thing than anything. Oh, well. So, but no, I agree with you. They do need to figure that out. I guess if you're going to take an optimist P.O.B on the Nuggets, the fact that they're second in the West with a pretty good record with a very good offense yet again, despite all of these issues with Jamal Murray

still rounding into form with Michael Porter, Jr., still kind of coming back from the injury. Like, I think there's a very credible case you can make there that this team could still be very good in a West that seems to be more jumbled by the day. I might take the certainty of their offense in the upside of Murray and Porter over some of these other teams, particularly when they don't need to be top five, top 10 in defense in the way that Michael Malone thinks they could. that was always going to be a pipe dream. Like if they're 15th, I think that will be fine.

And that will give them a curable case. They need to be like the seven seconds or less sons. They need to get to respectable on defense, right? And I know at the time, people were like, what are you talking about? That team that played defense, go look it up. Like they were always like 15th or whatever. Inefficiency is just that, you know,

they played at a higher pace than folks. So their points for game stuff didn't always look incredible. But the offense was just like, yeah, nobody can stop us. So once they get to respectable and they get the, and I think they can get their offense, I'm not kidding, I think they can get their offense to Boston Celtics level when they're right. I truly believe in the talent of this offense, the collective, you know, IQ, you know, maybe minus a guy named Gordon. But like the collective offensive IQ of this team, I think they can get to, you know, incredible levels. but the defense has to be respectable.

I just can't believe we're really saying the sentence they could get their offense to Boston Celtics levels. And that's just like, it's literally the highest praise we could offer. But it's true. That is crazy. All right. So that's my third tier. I have the nuggets in the grizzlies.

I guess you guys are on your third tier, right? Yeah. I'm on my fourth. I would say like the two teams that I think probably weren't. discussion that haven't really come up yet are the Sixers and the Raptors. You know, the Sixers, surprise, surprise, Joelle and Bede is cleaning up their defense. They've been able to actually make some hay on that end. We just won't know until James Hardin gets back and we see a fully integrated team again.

So I'm kind of just kind of tabling them indefinitely along with James Hardin's timetable. And the Raptors are, I mean. No, I'm listening. I'm listening to Rob. It's just, I, I'm listening to him and I'm thinking about the Sixes who I've watched this year and I'm trying to square those two things. I get it. The Raptors are kind of on the other side of that where we're tabling them because they've actually been pretty good despite having so many guys in and out with injuries.

I don't know what the fully healthy version of the Raptors is or what they might be, but the version we've gotten is already pretty damn good. And part of what makes them intriguing in this conversation and something we've been kind of avoiding in this whole kind of diagnosis is the Raptors are a really compelling and trade team. Like, they could vault up a tier or two on demand, basically, if they make a big swing. So they are in that conversation

in a different way than a lot of these other clubs are. Yeah, I think for Philly, it's just something, there's just something about the spirit of that collective group that I just can't latch on to. I think toxic is too strong of a word, but what's a, what's the, what's the, level under toxic, man. Like they're hazardous.

Problematic. Hazardous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, problem. Hazardous is still pretty bad, but sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just don't like what they're doing. And the fact that they look more cohesive and seem to have a purpose about who they are

when Hardin is gone, I don't like that. Like, it seems like, because. the things that Hardin has to do when he comes back to make them the best versions of himself is are things that we haven't seen him do since Oklahoma City which is just be a guy and attack when his spots come instead of just being like when I don't have the ball I don't do anything I don't care to do anything I don't even like taking

spot up threes as a pressure release valve for my offense. I just, I can't get with that team. And yet the defense is third in the NBA. I mean, it's classic Sixers in the James Hardin, Jewel and Beat era where it's like,

nobody likes to watch it. It is an absolute slog every time. There are injuries. There are all these other issues. And yet the product works to a certain degree. Will it work in the way that they set out to? We'll see. But I have them squarely in my fourth tier,

tier, which reminder is the These fucking guys tier, which is Golden State, Philadelphia and the Clippers. My fifth tier, which is titled, Teams the Internet Pretends can win the title. I have the, I have the calves, the Pelicans, and the Toronto

Raptors. And despite putting the Raptors in this tier, I have to say, probably my favorite team in the NBA this season, so fun to watch. Love the Siakum Renaissance. A little bit more mixed on the Scotty Barnes, occasionally, playing center, occasionally playing point card, where does he fit in? What is his upside?

Might be roller coaster. But I just, I think this is one of the more fascinating, ongoing chemistry experiments with all these Kauai-sized humans all playing together, Koloko and Jack Armstrong wearing Drake's coat and like saying things in a very high volume. I love the Raptors. I just don't, I don't buy them as anything more than the team you don't want to play in the playoffs. I'm so confused by your system. These aren't even tears. You just wanted like buckets with names on them. That's tears.

So you think the Sixers are in a better position right now than the Cavs? I believe in the Sixers title hopes more than the Cavs, yes. I think when it's all said and done, when the Sixers are healthy, I think they have a better shot. They don't have perimeter offense. I don't want to hit nothing. Offense? They don't. Perimeter offense.

offense, the Sixers. They're not going to generate any. Not when it matters. I have a relevant trivia question for you guys. Oh, okay. How many total points do you think PJ Tucker has scored in his last eight NBA games? I saw someone do an account of... 25. Did PJ score tonight? And it was on a couple game stretch. I'm going to say, how many games? Eight games. I'm going to say... Dating back to November. 13th against the Utah Jazz. I'm gonna say seven.

Three total points. In eight games played? Eight games played three total points. He didn't even attempt a shot in his last two games. Okay, some of this, to be fair, is a product of not having your drive-and-kick guys, at least your proper driving kick guys in Hardin' Maxie. That said, Jake Millen's also been playing out of his freaking mind.

Like, you're getting some guard action. You're also getting Joelle Embed who's able to kick out, who's able to get shots for guys. guys. I don't know, man. Like some of these rotation spots, like I'm a PJ Tucker booster, but offensively, he's been tough. Yeah.

And it's sad because last year, and we talked about it a ton on this show, like, Spoh was like letting him cook, like running stuff for him and not just being like, yo, just stay in the dunker spot, stay in the corner. Like, no, flash to the free throw line. We trust you to make a decision with the rock, you know, against a set defense. Like, to me, that's just a problem. of the offense and its design, lack of imagination and flow

and reason for being. But, you know, again, I don't want to beat a dead horse. I'm down on this team. Even when, even in their wins, like, they just beat ATL last night, which I, you know, I caught some of. It's just, it's listless, man. Justin, who else was in the teams

that the internet pretends could win division? The Cavs. The pelicans who Justin hates because he hates New Orleans. He hates Ben-Jays. He hates everything. I think I just have a average opinion about the pelicans and everybody else either hates their guts or thinks that they're going to win the title

and win 72 games. I just have a regular human take on the Noron's Pelicans. I'm sorry. Was, did we get through all of your teams? Yeah, those are all of my teams. But, you know, again, I think the tier that you call internet, whatever. To me, that's the nets and the clippers. I'm just like, well, if they put it together, the talent, paper, blah. No, you're not doing it.

It's not happening. And, you know, with the clippers and the nets, because I see them as like sort of sister franchises in that they're the ugly stepchild duckling of their city, even having had way more recent success than their counterparts. You know, save for the Lakers bubble championship. I just think that, I don't want to say cursed, but it's hard for me to ever believe positive things are going to happen to either one of those franchises. And I don't know if that's cursed or juju or, you know, vibes as my man Zay would say. But like, I just put those two together.

It's like, yeah, there's talent there, but there's so much other crap. around it. I don't see how four grueling rounds of, like those groups collectively, like we don't even need to humor ourselves and just think of the group in Brooklyn coming together and just like having all this resiliency and toughness and grit and playing for one another

and they're going to fight through. Like, nobody thinks that's a possibility. Like, nobody on planet Earth could possibly think, think that's going to happen for them. I think the Clippers, it's likelier that you could believe that can happen. I think their injury factor you know, for the 12 million time from both of their guys. It's just too, it's too tough. Noticeably not in this picture, two of last year's conference finalists. We got Dallas still on the board. We got Miami still on the board. Man, the vibes. The vibes are real

bad in Dallas right now. Did you rank them? I have them in like a very distant lower tier below all the teams that we've discussed. And I have Miami there too, in part just because, in part just because like Jimmy Butler hasn't played that much yet for them. So I kind of want to see that. But even when Jimmy has played, they're basically a 500 team, not good enough. Dallas looks, they just look so reliant on like, is Reggie Bullock going to go 0 for four from three tonight? If so, you lose. You know, it's just same thing, Tim Hardaway Jr., Dorian, Finney Smith, like they're so reliant on those guys to hit shots and basically all of their critics.

wings are just not there right now. So I don't think they're in that group. As far as like teams that could realistically win the title right now, they've got some work to do. Yeah. Anybody else we missed, theme team? Rob's Indiana Pacers.

No, they're not a champion. They're not a contest. Talk to me in another 20 games. Let's see where everything's at. Albertan still hasn't turned the ball over. Believe it or not, I think we have something a approaching consensus, though. With everyone except the clippers.

I think the clippers are floating in space. I don't know where to put them because we're so far apart. But what I'm hearing is, tier one to the extent that one exists per Mianwas or does not, for Justin, is the Celtics and Bucks. Tier two is the sons and warriors. Tier three, calves, pelicans, grizzlies, nuggets. Tier four, Sixers and Raptors.

Do we have any objections to that? No, I don't. I feel like Gold is. state in a seven game series is a tier one team, but I understand with the, with the resume that they put forward in this regular season that they're not. But that's my only quibble. I just like a little color to my tears, you know, a little snark, a little kitch. That's just me, guys. I guess I should probably throw the nets here somewhere because they probably have like a 0.0. No, the nets are in a tier. T-A-R-S. That's the tier they're in. If we're doing tears.

All right, shall we take some suggestions? I would love it. All right, we need to drop for this because we're going to get paid for it soon. This is the inaugural suggestion box. Thank you, everyone, for writing in. Like I said last time, very heartened by all the replies, all the kind words, all the bullshit and off the wall sort of takes in suggestions that you can. all of it. Continue to send them in Suggestion Boss G-C at g-mail.com. But first, I am going to read one from

our friend Warren from Toronto. He writes in hello group chat. Just want to begin by saying that you are my favorite MBA podcast, favorite spell F-A-V-O-U-R-I-T-E. So shouts to Canada. You can tell he's from Canada because he writes like that. Your chemistry has only gotten better with every episode. I love how you all play loose with each other. Huh. Seems like an interesting data point to consider. Waz, got to give you an individual shout-up because I found you through the Michael Brooks show and have been listening to you for years. Please have Emma Viglin on for weekends with Waz.

Shouts to Emma Viglin. Rest and peace, my brother Michael Brooks. Yeah, shouts to the TIR Army, man. He continues. All right, now here's my suggestion. We know Waz, in terms of the nightlife, is the guy from the East Coast who does the most. Respectfully, it seems. Justin and Rob, in parentheses, who are both guys anyone would want to get a beer with, close parentheses, are not as acclimated to L.A. scintillating nightlife. Seems fair. I think Justin and Rob have to spend a Friday night out with Wise and then recap how their night win. That's the behind the scenes episode. The Group Chat Army deserves all the best to the Kauai, Siakam, and Lowry of NBA podcast.

A lot of assumptions being made there, you know. You don't know what Rob does when he logs off of his podcast. Let me tell you. And Rob's not in L.A. Or else, yeah, we would be making this happen tomorrow if that was the case. Well, let's go ahead and figure out what the expense situation is. Like, are we clear for this? I mean, if it's wise, then yeah, I think we can go away with it.

I think we can figure out. I think we can figure it out for Showsky. Yeah. Let's put that one on ice for a bit. Rob is going to make a trip down here from the Bay sooner or later. And so we're going to do this, but it might take us a couple weeks. Which brings me to our next one. This one is from James Melnadi.

He says, good morning. I would like to hear from producer Isaiah more frequently and routinely on the group chat podcast. I feel like the podcast needs a Gen Z voice to balance out the older guys. And his takes have always been really excellent whenever he's been included on various Ringer podcasts here and there. Thanks for getting this email set up as a wait for listeners to provide feedback. Thank you, James. Actually alerted producer Isaiah in all caps about this ahead of time. And I've asked him to prepare a take, a Gen Z approved take.

For the old guard here. Welcome, I love the fans. That's incredible. So I made a tears list, but actually, I had another take that I just would fit the Gen Zee mode. I think teams give up on like blue chip guys too soon. I'm watching Bo Bo last night. I'm just like, wow, it's like had him in camp and just could have kept him for nothing. And like, that's the guy you need.

Or like, I'm watching Kevin Knox at Open Trees. I'm like, wow, wouldn't the Knicks level win who could have opened three? Like, I just think we gave up on who chip guys so early. Dennis Smith, Jr., Jalen Smith, the sons could kill for a Jalen Smith. These guys are five-star recruits at a high school, and you gave up on them when they were 20. Keep them around. They're at the end of your bench. So you're saying is Gen Z has more hope for the future than some of us crusty-ass old guys.

Exactly. That checks out. Yeah, exactly. You know what I think, especially guys, me and Justin's age, we live through the Anthony Randolph, experience. Hey, wait. Is Rob a different age? I'm Gen Z.

Yeah. It's right. Fellow, fellow kids. Once you live through the Anthony Randolph experience is just like where there was like 20 different times. It was like, no, this is this, this is the time it's going to work. And then it just worked overseas. So, you know, you just, you go through enough of those where it's just like, bro,

bowl, like that. Again, that's the kind of guy that gets you. Fired. Real tall. Secker on picked, though. Yeah. DeAndre Jordan doesn't get you fired? That's fair. Bull ball is good.

Well, just putting it out there. I talked a lot of crap about him because he stunk up to joint for 95% of his career. But he is, he's legit now. Shot for shout with KD last night. It was incredible. I should mention, so Isaiah is a Celtics fan. And you know, if they kept Bull Bull, this means that Luke Cornet would not be getting benchments right now. I would say it does hurt my take because Luke's kind of hooping right now.

I will say that. But like, for example, Justin Jackson doesn't have to be on the roster at all. He could go. I do think he brings up something interesting, though. It does feel like more of the second draft guys are popping more than before. I don't know if it's teams are putting more effort into their developmental system. I don't know if it's now that we have the G League as a resource that almost every team has at this point. But it does feel like there are more of these found objects, guys on their second, third team really taken off.

and like bowl is like a legitimately good starting center right now for a weird for a weird bad magic team. Yeah. Did you see what his teammates said about him yesterday? The one where Bank Ben Chero. Yeah. Come on. Ban Chiro. Palo Banquero said that people keep making these like going, they're going crazy for Victor Webminiama.

Oh, he's tall. He's lanky. He shoots and he dribbles it. He's like, maybe they should be making the bowl bowl comp. Richard Jefferson on the broadcast said the only other guy who can do the Eurocept floater that Bobo did in the fourth quarter is Wenban Yama. Nordic too?

Like, not fully true, but sort of. These aren't the comps we need. But I will say, as far as this larger conversation about second draft guys, one thing that our guy Kyle Mann brought up when I was talking with him, and sorry, Kyle, if I'm stepping on something you're doing, is that there's basically just fewer over 30 guys in the league right now

than at any time in recent NBA history. It's a lot of, a lot of kind of like the older veteran types have been pushed out in favor of these G-League guys, guys on two-way deals, guys who are getting legit shots on second and third teams. I think that's a huge part of it just as an overall trend in the league right now. Like the Michael Green minutes, for example.

Why? Just throw the kids. I'm sorry, he can't shoot either. Just throw the kids out there. I know. It just makes more sense. It does also seem like something has happened in training and skill development where guys who would typically flame out of the league

that were just like high upside athletic guys, like developed a jump shot later in their career and they've managed to like hook on to a team and become a credible rotation player. That wasn't happening most of the time. And I think I've said this in past podcast, but like guys who are in your two or three, you kind of know who they are.

I think at this point you still do, but I think there's still room to be a credible NBA player in a way that there weren't probably in years past. I think jump shots can come around except for Ben Simmons. Everybody else, you can find a jump shot. He's the only one who can't, but everybody else, like, there's so many shooting coaches and a way to fix your jump shot. I think all that is doable, especially in college, like,

the spacing is horrendous. None of these guys can shoot. You space the floor, you guys who can pass. It's fixable. So Gen Z believes in everyone having a second chance except for Ben Simmons. Yeah, I mean, in the spirit of throwing the kids in there. Like, Isaiah's got to be in here, you know? This has got to happen.

I don't know. Isaiah's coming in hot, you know? We have to find minutes for him right away. So thank you, Isaiah, for writing the voice of the youth here. Let's wrap it there. Thanks again for everybody you sent in your emails. Keep sending them in suggestion box, gc.gmail.com for Rob, for Woz, and for producer Isaiah in all caps.

We'll be back next week. Same time, same place. See you.