The Ringer NBA Show - Top Five Best NBA Duos and Trae Young’s Frustration

Episode Date: August 7, 2025

Howard Beck and Michael Pina assess the NBA landscape and give their current top five duos across the league. Who’s the top duo, and who gets an honorable mention? They also reminisce on the top duos of all time. Plus, did De’Aaron Fox's extension make things that much harder for the Hawks and Trae Young to find an agreement in the future? 0:08 Intro 1:58 Trae Young's frustration 6:00 Top Five Best NBA Duos 1:04:43 Honorable mentions Hosts: Howard Beck and Michael Pina Audio Producer: Clifford Augustin Video Producer: Victoria Valencia Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's The Ringer NBA show. Howard Beck, senior writer at the Ringer. With me is Michael Pina. Also a senior writer at the Ringer. Pina, there's absolutely nothing happening in the NBA. Am I allowed to say that at the beginning of an NBA podcast? It's true, Howard. It's true.

We're in the dog days of August. There are contract extensions coming out left and right, Luca, Deer and Fox. We've got like warmed over Janus stuff, speculation, something. Nothing that's like particularly newsworthy or burning a hole in our pockets. So you proposed and I accepted the idea that in this like nice, quiet space of the summer, we'll, we'll just have some fun.

We'll do our best duos, favorite duos. I don't know if we really specified exactly. We're doing duos. Duos of some sort. I think I think I proposed top duos. Top duos. Top duos? That's a good way to brand it. It's pretty open to interpretation.

So the listeners know, we did not do the pod before the pod. Peter and I did go out to dinner last night here in Brooklyn, had a fine dinner. Lovely. And Carol Gardens. But we did not do the pod before the pod. So I don't know where you're going. You don't know where I'm going.

Is there any other new, before we get this, is there any new, like, do we miss anything in our long conversation about various things last night, about the NBA or anything? Like, is there anything we need to touch on before we just get into duos? Because I, there's nothing really burning a hole in my pocket. No, I don't think so. I was, I'm doing this other story right now that I don't want to step on too much, but I was Googling around and I saw that, not to spring this on you, because we didn't prepare, but Tray Young is apparently disappointed

that the Atlanta Hawks have not offered him a contract extension. So I don't know if you have any thoughts about that, Howard. We could get those off your chest real quick. Well, I mean, listen, I don't know if Trey and teammate to be named may pop up on somebody's duos today, possible. We'll see. This seems like kind of a critical year for everything Hawks related, right? Pretty nice off-season. Everybody had high praise for their summer and their acquisitions.

And I think everybody certainly, you at the top of the list, pretty excited to see what a whole season of Trey and Jalen Johnson looks like. And yeah, I don't think you want to sour that by having a cloud of a lack of extension hanging over it. So maybe worth keeping eye on. Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that you would give Trey Young the four-year, $229 million extension tomorrow. Is that what I'm hearing, Howard? Listen, we are in an interesting time. We'll just, this quick little tangent because it's related to everything that's happened this summer or not happened this summer, right?

teams are having to kind of recalibrate and reassess in this second apron era, which we are still very early in. And one of the lessons, I think, or one of like the early warnings, I think is if you have guys that you think are core players in the past, it was automatic almost, right? This is our star player. Our star player, whether he is one of the best 10 or 20 players in the league or not, he's our best player. He gets a max, almost automatic, ever since the max was created over 20 years ago. And I think we're now in a space where you have to have a little tougher conversation internally, right? And maybe that's what's happening in Atlanta. And so no, I'm I am not prepared to give him.

What did you say, 229? I believe that's the figure that I saw, yeah. But he is, you know, he's super talented. He is their best player. And there's still a scenario there where he's, you know, one of the, I mean, he is one of the best players in the league, depending on where you want to draw the line, 25, 30, wherever it is. Trey Young's really talented and really important to them. We're now having to figure out where the line is now.

When do you automatically give it to the guy, the max, even if you're not entirely sure that this is the franchise star that you want to build around? When do you feel just obligated based on keeping up good relations and keeping the vibes good and knowing full well that you might end up having to trade them later? and if you do, how much harder is it if the guy's averaging 50, 60 million a year? Yeah, I think that real quick, the Deeran Fox extension with the San Antonio Spurs was for the Max, which was a little surprising based on where that organization is and the Dylan Harper draft pick and all that, giving Deer and Fox 30% of the cap as you're trying to ascend is a little risky.

and I feel like the Atlanta Hawks were not fans of that contract with the Aaron Fox because if I'm Trey Young and his representation, I'm looking at that. Like, I've made four All-Star teams. This dude has made one. I've played in almost 30 playoff games. This dude has played in six or seven. And I know that the two situations are very different, but I think that that was not something that the Atlanta Hawks and their brain trust were smiling about. Yeah, I think it's a great call. I think they probably winced a little bit. And honestly, I'm a little surprised that the Spurs went that far with it as good as Deer & Fox has been because they've got, I don't know, they're still sorting things out. And he hasn't played that many games with Wembe yet. And they've got Castle. Now they got Harper.

And I don't know. I think we're still in a phase of, like, as I was saying, teams in general, if the guy is an all-star caliber player, you give him the max and it's almost automatic. But I'm not sure it should be automatic in today's NBA. All right. So we said five best NBA duos. We did not specify rules of what top or best or whatever could mean. And so this could be, as I looked at it, two most talented teammates, regardless of fit, right? If they're both a top 10, top 20, top 30 type player, could just be two most talented guys together, even if they don't play off each other well necessarily, right? May not even be both offensive players. Um, might be a great defender, you know, could be like a Gobert,

Anthony Edwards situation, right? Could be the best tandem as a tandem, right? They play off each other, enhance each other really well. Could be just, we just like them or just intrigued? And we did not discuss any of this ahead of time. Before we dive into who we actually have, I have this one other quick thought, which is, historically, do you have, like, is there a platonic ideal for a duo?

when you're thinking of like the classic NBA duo, the one two punch that you think, like, that's the standard, either in terms of just being absolutely dominant, just being awesome, or the model that you would want to follow. Like who comes to mind immediately? Like when you're thinking of like when we talk modern duos, who are the historic ones that you think of first? I think there are two that are aesthetically different and both have been mimicked for years on end. The first is like the wing slash guard primary ball handler and the big. So Shaq and Kobe, I think, are the, that's the ideal one. You have Tony Parker and Tim Duncan. Stockton and Malone, yes, Stockton and Malone to a different extent a little bit with Malone being a power forward.

And then you have like the wings who just don't necessarily play off of each other, but are just hellacious on the court together. So the best one ever is Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippin. Yes. We just, well, I don't want to talk about too many contemporary ones to kind of foreshed our, where our conversation could go. But there are several in the league right now that are really fascinating based on length, athleticism, you know, all that sort of stuff. So those are the two kinds of duos that I think are the most prevalent. unsuccessful throughout the league. The Jordan Pippin one is the one that, like, to me, is almost like my personal standard bearer just because that was the first team that I really watched

a ton of, like in the 90s. Like, I was alive in the 80s. I wasn't watching quite as much MBA in the 80s as in the 90s. And just besides that, Jordan Pippen were just fun. And in a time when this was still kind of an inside out league and bigs were still super important. And like they were dominating with, you know, Bill Wennington and Luke longly and whatever because Jordan and Pippen were just so awesome together. I mean, obviously there was a Horace Grant for one three Pete and there was a Dennis Rodman for another three Pete, all that. But like Jordan and Pippen, and I think they also were like a duo that transfers to today's NBA. You know, if we had the three points shooting for a minute,

obviously they would work on that if they were like or playing in this era of the NBA. But just being able to dominate at both ends, just being absolute terrorists defensively, terrors offensively, all that length. And just, you know, Pippin was just this balletic type player who just so graceful. I just, I love the combination there. So, like, they're kind of like my favorite. But like, yeah, Shaq and Kobe, who, you know, obviously I covered. But like, that's the classic guard center version.

That was amazing. Those are those, like the first two duos that came to mind when I was trying to think historically were those two. There's obviously some other great ones in the past. Jerry Westwell, Chamberlain. LeBron and Wade, another version of that. of kind of the way. Great call. Great call. And it was funny. I was looking like when people have made their like best of all timeless, like Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumas pop up, which is one of the

rare like guard guard versions of this. So all right, all that said. Let's dive in. I don't know if you want to go in, did you want to go like five down to one? Do we just, does it matter what order we go? I think we should definitely count down from five. So, so from our, our, our, our, our, our, fifth best down to our first best. Yeah, keep the people, keep the people on their toes. Huh. Okay. All right. Because I have a little bit of a, I have some optionality here. So I'll, I'll, I'll figure out the ranking as I go. All right, hit me with your number five. Okay. So before I give you my number five, a quick little rundown of how I looked at this process. So you, how many spreadsheets were involved? There's, how many algorithms? There are no spreadsheets. I, this. This,

was extremely like not off the top of my head, but, you know, I looked at the teams. I know who plays for what teams just to kind of refresh my memory, and I feel like I have a good grasp on things. So basically looking at, you know, combined talent and of as you said, Howard, that's really important, just how good are these two players. I also kind of factored in how self-sufficient the duo would be together regardless of their surroundings. Yeah. I factored in durability. I factored in offensive compatibility, defensive compatibility, and last but not least, like if they're staggered, how good are they independently enough to carry the load,

if that makes sense? Yeah. So my number five with that preamble out of the way is right in our backyard. Not in Brooklyn. Nick Clackson and Michael Porter Jr. No, I'm just kidding. That is not it. Jalen Brunson and Carl Anthony Towns. Yeah. Are my number five best dynamic duo in the NBA. And I have them fifth. First of all, do you think that's low? Was that duo on your list at all? They're on my list. And I hesitated a little bit because NBA stats was like really being really glitchy this morning. But I believe, Brunson and Kat last year were plus 4.9 per 100, which is fine. It's not dominant, though, for two guys who are perennial all-stars. And that's in 1,464 minutes, 57 games. So it's like a pretty good sample size. Next 151 games last season, their first one together. What I like about

them is more about what they've done individually, right? Like, Jalen Brunson can just get a shot almost like anywhere anytime at impossible angles and in crowds and everything else. And it just seems impossible for a guy his size and he's just amazing at manufacturing, right? And Towns, obviously, one of the best shooting seven footers of all time from range, from three point range. And, you know, could do some things inside and is a good playmaker. And you can run offense through him, but they didn't run offense through him as much as I think they could have, or as I think some Knicks fans would have liked to see last season under Tibbs, and I'm curious to see what Mike Brown does differently.

I think they belong on this list, and I had them on my list. I did not actually put things in order, so let's just say that they were there. But I think there's potential for them in year two together, and maybe with a little bit more offensive creativity from Mike Brown, presumably, we might see a more devastating version of it. Yeah, I think offensively, this is pretty much as good as it gets with these two. Like, just looking at their games, looking at how they fit together, it's one of the better on-paper pick and rolls that you can have because Carl Anthony Towns, I mean, basically every year of his career when he's on the court, the team's offense is incredible because he's one of the best three-point shooting big men in NBA history. He can pop behind the three-point line. He can set a screen and dive to the rim.

He's a lob threat. He can post up, draw two, kick out. And Jalen Brunson is, I mean, I will say his game, I've said this a couple times, but his game four against the Boston Celtics was one of the best offensive performances I've ever seen in person in my entire life. He was incredible. Everything he threw up was going in. Gets to the line, can score at all three levels.

is he's just an incredible basketball player. And I think like those, they make each other better despite their first, there were some hiccups, I think, in their first season together last year. But I am too intrigued by Mike Brown coming in and kind of fleshing out the offensive playbook a little bit and maybe running a little bit more pick and roll with them. And just unlocking different, different assets. of how they threatened defenses. So they were my number five.

And honestly, like for a, I think Brunson made second team all-MBA and Towns was third team all-MBA, they could have been higher on this list. But I think defense is just such a red flag and like terrible and matters a lot. And so when you have two guys who are two of the more questionable to bad, add defenders at their position. It's not great. Yeah, and it was the first thing I was going to throw back at you was like, how much did you want to weigh in defense? And obviously, we're factoring in everything. But when we think about dynamic duos currently or in history, we often gravitate immediately to the guys who put up big numbers, right? Like, this is an offensive,

you know, basketball has two sides, yes, but if you don't have guys, if your two stars are not elite scorers, you're probably not going real far anyway. So I think defense becomes not an afterthought, but it's definitely secondary. And you can manufacture ways to be good defensively around them. And if you're elite enough offensively, it can offset your weakness defensively. But yeah, these are two guys who are both kind of subpar in that regard. And towns in particular, you know, the whole reason for the exercise in Minnesota of getting Rudy Gober was, if our five is towns and he's not really a rim protector and he's not really going to anchor a defense, we got to try something else. And with the Knicks last year, we didn't even really get a full picture of what their ideal

lineup is, right? Mitchell Robinson is out for, you know, more than half the season. I think it was more than half, but a huge chunk of the season. Comes in, um, they play them together at times, but like, we're, we don't know where Mike Brown is going with this, right? Um, is it, is it Mitchell Robinson and Kat together from minute one? How much are they playing together? How much can you get out of Mitchell Robinson as your defensive anchor, rim protector, and doing all the things that Towns does not. What happens when he's off the floor? They've got some stuff still to figure out.

But I do think of it this way. I think there was a ceiling on the seven seconds with Les Phoenix Suns in part because your two best players were Nash and Amari, who were an absolute devastating pick and roll combo. This is not a great, it's not a perfect analogy, but there's some outline of a similarity there. And they had, you know, guys like Sean Marion and, you know, Rajabelle, others to defend. Shout out to my real ones, co-host.

But it felt like there was always a ceiling on how far the suns could go because of defense. And it wasn't just because, oh, Mike Dan Tony doesn't practice defense. I don't know. It was like your two best players are basically all offense, no deep. And where does that leave you? All right. So with that there, I think we're off to a nice start here. So let me just like completely derail the conversation.

Like I said, we did not do the pod before the pod last night of dinner, but you did name-check this duo, and I just want to throw them out there because they're at least intriguing. They're at least of interest. And I would feel incredibly remiss if we did not mention them. And since we're still at the bottom of our list, I'm going to feel okay about putting them there. So let's talk about Luca and LeBron. Okay. Not on my list, by the way. Yeah. I did not want to put them here except it's freaking Luca Donchich. Like, Luca and just about anybody even competent, and I'm not saying LeBron is only competent. Let's be very, very clear. Luca and even anybody competent as a co-star or as a second player is going to be an awesome duo

because Luca's awesome. And I know what we're talking about here is like, what ceiling can you create by two great players next to each other? That's the exercise. LeBron is. LeBron still was last year. Still NBA.

I know that the box score numbers and averages are much better than the advanced version, and they belie the fact that defensively he is regrettable at times. Inconsistent. Inconsistent. That's a nice word. Luke and LeBron together plus two per 100 last season and 567 minutes across 23 games. Not really overwhelming. Not great.

By contrast, Luca and Austin Reeves was a plus 6.5 points per 100. But Luca, not healthy when he arrived. Luca and LeBron, not a lot of time together. And there's a huge cloud over everything, too, now, because LeBron's taking photos in front of clipper banners and doesn't have an extension, nor does he have apparently the roster that he wants if Rich Paul's statement from a while back is to be taking. it at face value. So there's like a lot of weird just shit hanging over, right? I don't know what to make of it.

But I do know that prime LeBron and prime Dwayne Wade took some time to figure out how to playoff each other as two primary ball handlers who could score and playmake and do a lot of things at an elite level. This is a 40, soon to be 41 year old version of LeBron. It's different on its face, but he's still a devastating force out there. And he's playing alongside a newly slimmed down, Luca, who is at any given time no worse than a top three player in the world. Advanced stats aside, points for 100 positions aside, LeBron's defense aside, Luca's defense aside, speaking of a duo that may not play much D. I don't know.

I could not do this exercise without mentioning a duo that consists of a top three perennial MVP candidate currently and a former multiple time MVP who's still playing in an incredibly high level despite being 40. All fair. I had 10 honorable mentions, and they cracked the 10 honorable mentions for the record. You're not disrespecting them. I'm not a hater. I actually, I've been thinking more and more about the Los Angeles Lakers just as this thought experiment. And it seems like Luca in particular has really settled in. He obviously signed the extension. He was recruiting Marcus Smart. They gave him the rim rolling center that he did not have last year and D'Andre Aiton. I think there's-

Former number one pick DeAndre Aten. We are contractually obligated to say. Yes, of course. And, you know. It was bought out by the Portland Trail. I don't think that this roster is like anything close to what he had in terms of just accentuating his abilities with the Dallas Mavericks, the year that they went to the final. or even you could say the years that they went to the conference finals in 2022 or yeah, 2022.

But again, it's like it's Luca and it almost like doesn't matter sometime. Like I think like people are kind of maybe forgetting just how special this guy is. And I think for me leaving them off the list, a big part of it was, it was like defense was was a factor for sure um but it was also just like their compatibility together and how these two players are able to get the best out of one another and i i don't i think that that is going to be a struggle um and i'm not saying like there's one ball and this and that that's really not it it's just like how do they directly compliment one each other each other Are they able to play fast together?

Do they have to play in the half court primarily? LeBron can't really set ball screens for Luca. That doesn't really make a lot of sense. So then what is he doing offensively when Luca has the ball? And as we know, giving the ball to Luca and letting him kind of do whatever he wants is a recipe for success. That's not necessarily what you should do at all times. That's why the Dallas Mavericks won't got Kyrie Irving. And that's how they reached the NBA finals was kind of taking the ball.

of Lucas Hans a little bit, but he's so brilliant with it. He's the best pick and roll, smartest pick and roll playmaker, one of I've ever seen, and he's good for 30 points efficiently in a season, and it won't make you blink. So I feel like he's a little, like, not overlooked. That's impossible based on the offseason that he's had. But this guy is really, really good, and he's like just entering. his prime right now. So, yeah. And I'm not one who's putting the Lakers in the contender category. I think a lot of things would have to break right for them. And probably there's, and there have to be

another move or two somewhere along the way here too on the roster. But I do think we're kind of sleeping on the, not sleeping on the Lakers, but sleeping on Luca on the Lakers. Like, sleeping on the idea that like after a really weird season that combined injury and this absolutely shocking trade that still in August is still hard to process that this even happened and how it happened and why it happened. The dude is amazing. He's an incredible player. And like, there's a part of this, Michael, where I can't get, like, it's hard to get past, and I don't think anybody should get past the LeBron cloud that's hanging over everything, right? And he put that cloud there. Rich Paul's statement did. All of LeBron's Instagramming has put a cloud there. We don't

know what his mood is. If LeBron had showed up at Lucas Extension press conference, if LeBron had not had Rich Paul issue that statement, if LeBron were like fully embracing elder statesman on my way, I'm easing out, you know, I may only have one year left with the Lakers, I might want to play longer, but hey, you know what, maybe it won't be there. Like if there were, if he were handling this more gracefully is what I'm saying, and with some magnanimity and, and his, his, um, and was projecting the. idea that like, I can now be the older Kareem to his Magic Johnson, whatever, whichever analogy you want to use. I would feel a lot better about what the Lakers prospects were this season.

The fact that we don't really know where LeBron's head is at or that what we do know or seem to know points in a negative direction, I think does cloud even how we view the Lakers prospects this season. But there's a scenario here where if LeBron fully embraces elder statesman, secondary option, where Luke is now the focus. LeBron's an incredibly smart player, one of the smartest we've ever seen. It is still a great score, a great playmaker, can lock in on defense if he needs to at times.

There are some physical limitations when you get to 40, but whatever. Like there's a version of this where if he's all in, even with maybe a flawed supporting cast, like the Lakers can be really great. But I just don't know how much to believe in them when LeBron is in kind of the mental state or projecting the mental state that he is.

So that's where I'm at. But I thought they had to be mentioned. No, that's great. And all of that LeBron stuff is definitely, I guess, like, maybe that subconsciously was in my decision-making process. I didn't actively think about it too much. But that is for sure, if we're projecting forward about Nick, this upcoming season. And one of the duo members of this dynamic duo is kind of like, I don't want to be your teammate. kind of like that's that's that's that's a factor that should be discussed so yeah yeah all right

number four counting backwards on your top duo's list donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley did did not ultimately put them on my list but had them in my very high on my list of considerations so we have first team all MBA Donovan Mitchell took a back seat last season intentionally sacrificed his individual numbers for the greater good. It worked perfectly in the regular season. They were just, I mean, obviously the Cleveland Cavaliers were kind of runaway favorites to come out of the east. It didn't work out that way in the postseason. Not for anything he did wrong.

He was incredible. He's one of the most explosive scores in basketball. Again, scores at all three levels, has the pull-up three down. Fearless and Crunch Time can get to the rim when he wants. And I think just like Evan Mobley is I'm just, I'm always forever enamored by him. And he's coming off a defensive player of the year season. He is, I feel like just beginning to crack his shell as a really high impact offensive player. We saw it in spurts last year.

I mean, he was like very good for sure, like highly. efficient. One of the better finishers around the basket. Just still needs to get a little bit stronger, I feel like. But in terms of how he reads the game and, you know, decision-making out of the pocket when he runs pick and roll with Donovan Mitchell, because those two are usually the two on the court together with Darius Garland and Jared Allen kind of running tandem in Kenny Atkinson's rotation. He's just a kind of an ideal pick and roll partner in a lot of different ways for someone who is such a threat with the ball as Donovan Mitchell is. So I think like the, we saw it was evident last year that all the talk

about Evan Mowgli needs to shoot threes was a little bit overblown. And he did shoot a little bit more, but it was not a focus of his game. And I don't think it should be. And he should be, in this upcoming season, I want to see him just get a little bit more stronger. more confident with his post-up game, operating in space. And I think we should be able to see that. I don't see why not. So these two are really good together.

And when they were on the court together, they've like torched the NBA. So they're number four. I think we have reached like the first season since the Donovan Mitchell acquisition where we are not debating whether Garland and Mitchell are the right pairing, right? Like that in itself is a huge shift.

I don't know if you were ever in that category yourself. I was skeptical from the moment they brought in Mitchell. Garland was just coming off his first All-Star appearance and the idea of like two smaller guards, neither of whom we're back to another, you know, duo that doesn't necessarily is not known for their defense. They have the luxury of two incredible bigs behind them to take care of all that. But I was very skeptical of the, and this is the first season where we're going to going into where I'm like, okay, all right.

Okay, can I stop you right there? Have we seen it? All right. Well, I mean, listen, the top line is the win total. What was, which was what? 64. Sure. Yeah, a lot of wins.

Yeah. A lot of wins. Isn't that enough or should, all right, I'll ask you, should that be enough for us to put to bed whether Garland and Mitchell are the right pairing? You just put them as your fourth best pairing in the NBA. So you're now. Well, Mowbly and Mitchell. Let's get it.

Oh, you went Mowgli. Excuse me, Moby-Mitt. Yes. I'm sorry. Garland is a whole different thing. Garland is a whole different thing. All right. So, sorry.

I allowed my brain to go down a second track while I, while we were talking. The Garland Mitchell thing, I felt has clouded the Cavs prospects for the last couple of seasons. Yeah. I felt like last season was the first time that that pairing, we have so many, that was the thing. I was thinking about Cleveland, and I think ultimately why I didn't end up putting any of the pairings on this list, was like, the strength of that team is like, you know, is the most important pairing, you know, Garland Mitchell, Mitchell Mobley, Garland, Mobley, you know, throw Jared Allen if you want to just on a defensive side of it. There's, like they have a lot of different combinations that make them great, two man, three men, four men groups. And, but Mitchell Garland is where this whole thing starts. And so you're still still. skeptical that Mitchell and Garland long-term, or maybe not even long-term, ceiling-wise, is their best form? This is a finals or bust season for them. I think there's a lot of pressure on the Cleveland

Cavaliers going into this year. And I agree. I think that if they come up short and do not reach the finals or do not reach even the conference finals and aren't, I mean, if anything happens that has happened, in terms of how they bow out in the playoffs, like sheepishly as they have this past year, as they did against the New York Knicks a few years ago, then, yeah, this quartet will for sure be broken up. I don't think like you can't have, is the most expensive payroll in the league, I believe, or one of?

I mean, they're in the second apron. They've got serious second apron issues. And I felt like the clock has been ticking, even on the payroll side of it, forget the functionality, but the payroll side of it has been hanging over there. 100%. So you're going to see, changes if they do not.

We may see changes either way. Fair. But definitely, if they do not put it all together and actually have a successful postseason run. And so my biggest question still is like defensively. I just want to see Garland in particular hold up on the defensive end throughout a playoff run because I think that he is, I think he's one of the poor defenders in basketball for someone of his stature.

And, you know, whether it's we have to bench him and we're going to play Lonzo ball instead in crunch time or something like that. I just, I want to see what, how they adjust to and adjust to his shortcomings on the defensive end, which I think that that's fair because we haven't seen it yet. According to Spottrack, which by the way, I finally have gotten, like, I was never sure, Spotrack, like Spolstra, Spottrack, Key Smith, who, uh, I, I, I, I saw, for the first time met for the first time at Summer League informs me that it is in fact Spot Track. So I'm, I'm, uh, thank you for clearing this up because this was an issue for me

as well. I was confused. It's driven me crazy for years. I don't know why I always just assumed Spotrack. I, not because of Spotrack. Just, I, it does sound like that. Spot track sounds like a tracker for like places where you get a massage. Where should I go get a back rubbed? Oh, I don't know. Let's check Spa Track. Oh, there's one down the street on Smith. Um, Cleveland has, according to Spotrack, the second highest total payroll going into this season behind the Warriors. Warriors at 248 million plus, calves at 244. So one of the most expensive payrolls, followed by Minnesota and New York. Yeah, there are pressures there and expectations there.

And I think with Cleveland and New York, we've already talked about a little bit, like, given the absence of the pace or due to Halliburton's hamstring, due to the absence of the Celtics, due to Tatum's hamstring, the wide open nature of the East, like both of those teams have huge, and considering their payrolls are both in the top four, huge, huge, huge pressure. And plus, you know, obviously then expiring their coach and bringing in Mike Brown, huge pressure on Mike Brown. Yeah, I, you know, the upside of being in the East right now is, hey, it looks like it's anybody's game.

The downside is if you're Cleveland and New York in particular, it's kind of championship or at least Eastern Conference Championship or bust. And I think the consequences for not winning could be rather extreme. So any other thoughts on your Mobley Mitchell duo before we move on? No, I'm looking forward to hearing what you got. All right, continuing to move things around on the fly here,

trying to figure out what my best order was. And oh, man, did I have a landmine here that I just, I'll, I'll just leave it for like the post discussion. Okay. I won't do it. Curry and Butler or Curry and Dremont. And I still, like, as I was going through everything this morning, like, Curry and Dremont are still incredible together by the numbers.

And Curry and Butler were very, very good together in limited time. So I'm going to default to Steph and Jimmy. And this is one where all the caution flags are up, right? guys who are in their mid to late 30s, you know, small-ish sample size together, are they going to stay healthy? How many games will they actually get together? How many possessions over the course of the season? Like, you wouldn't stake your, you know, your fate on this if you could.

Like, you're not building around late 30-somethings if you can help it. But this is who you've got. And I don't think there's anybody in the league that wants to deal with Steph and Jimmy together. I think as long as they are, in fact, upright, on the court, healthy playing, I think they're going to be incredible. And so real quick, 529 minutes together last season over 27 games. There were plus 5 for 100. So not dominant, but very good. Curry and Draymond, by the way, were plus 7.3.

The Warriors have long been about having really smart intuitive players playing off of each other. and obviously several other factors in that. But the reason that Steph and Dremond are great together is that sixth sense, that intuitiveness they have for each other and playing off each other, and especially Dremont always knowing where Steph is at all given time, any given time. Jimmy has that same kind of basketball IQ and in their short time together. You could see just how intuitive it was, especially when all three of those guys run the court together and the passing, the ball movement was phenomenal.

And I love that. I love that style of play anyway. Like I am I am just biased toward wanting to see teams that have great ball movement, player movement. So, um, and then, you know,

to the extent that Jimmy holds up, there's, you know, like that, that, that wing defense that they were missing or didn't have enough of it times over the last couple of years. Wiggins provided some of that for a while in spurts.

And Jimmy can take on so much playmaking that when you need, if you want stuff off the ball or if you just want step on, you know, taking a rest, Butler can do it. And I don't know what their upside is, right? Did they belong on a literal top five duos for 25, 26? Maybe it's debatable, but the upside's there.

And if I'm factoring in just how much fun they're going to be to watch and how much, how intrigued I am and how, you know, just what they could be together, I've got them there. I have no objection. They did not make my list. But I think that that is more just a testament to the number of ridiculously talented duos there are around the league. Sure.

And also me trying to have the most interesting list possible for podcasting purposes on August 7th. So if you were to ask me this, if we were to redo this exercise in like November, yeah, good chance that these two are going to be on the list because they're incredible. Real quick. I did a, you mentioned Jimmy's IQ and I wrote the story about Nicola Yokic being like the smartest player ever last year. And for it, I used this website called Crafted NBA that has this algorithm that measures basketball IQ for every player in the league. And I threw it in the story

because Yokic actually like broke the whole thing. Like he was like so better than everyone. else that it didn't even, he was like, he ranked as 100, but actually it was like a hundred 25 or something. And the other player who also broke the scale was Jimmy Butler. Like those two were the smart ranked as the smartest players in the entire league. And when you watch Jimmy play, it is almost frustrating to a certain extent how committed he is to making the right read and making the right decision with the ball. Because you're like, just go to the basket, get to the free throw line, pull up from mid-range, shoot that wide open three, like all these different things you want him to do because he's so talented and you know, and you've seen him, you know,

playoff Jimmy is just this mythical figure who's come through time and time again. And you want to see him just average like 28, 29 points per game because you feel like he should be able to do that in his sleep. And his brain just doesn't work that way. And it's more often for better because he seems like someone who's very fun. to play with. He can, you know, he's very sacrificial. And he has pretty much no weaknesses to him, in my opinion. You know, getting up there in age a little bit, you're seeing a little bit, you know, the physical limitations are happening here and there. But just an awesome player.

And I don't really need to say anything about Steph Curry. Well, it's kind of like the same theorem as with Luca, right? It's like, Stefan, anybody even remotely good and you already have to pay attention, right? And Jimmy's way better than mentally good. Yeah, I love the fact he doesn't, Jimmy doesn't force the issue. He doesn't force plays. He's not, it's not just, I'm going to call my own number for the sake of it because maybe I'm the best offensive player out here. So I'm just going to, you know, drive it to traffic or, you know, contested pull-ups. Like, it's just, it's not him. He's almost always going to make the right play. But he did, he did bring that element that they really needed. If somebody who can,

at times, force the issue because he knows he's going to get fouled and he's going to get to the line. And they, they badly, badly needed somebody who could do that. So yeah, like there's an intrigue factor here that I factored in that put them probably higher than might otherwise be merited. But so be it. All right. Number three on your list. All right. Here we getting real spicy now, Howard.

Here we go. Number three on my list is Victor Wembeyanma and Deer and Fox. On my longer list and decided not to force the, like Jimmy Butler, I didn't want to force the issue. But you did, so go. This is, so I'm looking forward to the 2025-26 season. And I think that Victor Remenjama will be a, like, universally seen as a top five player in the league. I think he will win defensive player of the year easily, maybe unanimously. And I think that watching him function with, like, he had Chris Paul last year, right? And Chris Paul was, you know, he's one of the best pick and roll playmakers,

smartest basketball players we've ever seen. When those two were on the court together, the San Antonio Spurs were freaking awesome on both sides of the ball. And I feel like you are just adding, with Deerrin Fox, who's obviously a better player than Chris Paul, you are adding this dynamism, this speed, this scoring ability and crunch time,

all these things that make him so great offensively will accentuate and make Victor's life easier. And then I think Victor offensively, if he takes the steps that I think he can this year, he will make Deerrin Fox's life so much easier as well. And I guess it all boils down to like, I just think Victor is going to wreck the league this year. And I think the spurs are going to be awesome. and I keep thinking about how Deerrin Fox is essentially going from DeMontas-Obonas as his team's defensive anchor to Victor Wimbunyama.

And I want to see how that impacts his mentality on the defensive end and how serious he takes it because he's not going to have to guard the other team's best or even second best player on most situations because of how they're built with you know step castle is going to be on the court sohan's going to be on the court um they just have better defensive options um out there but i i am curious to see just his intensity level as a two-way player which i think can get really high back to what it was earlier in his career and yeah like you know they played five games together last year, 120 minutes.

I just kind of like throwing that out the window, to be honest with you. And I just, I'm, yeah, I can't really like hyperboize what I feel about Victor Maniama. I think he's just so good. And I wanted to put him high on this list and his

teammate, just, his best teammate, just happens to be an all-star caliber point card in his prime. Yeah. No, we could go right back to the same theorem, right? Like, Wemby and anybody should be pretty fucking good. Wemby and Deer and Fox should be amazing. I only hesitated. There were two reasons I hesitated with that one as I was making my longer list.

And at one point, by the way, I think I told you, I literally went through all 30 teams. And then I have a list of just like my LOLs, where it was just like, what would be the Bulls duo? And I just laughed so hard that I just stopped and I moved on. but I literally went through all 30 teams just to see what I, what, what would be the, um, proposed pairing. Uh, with the spurs, like I just, there's two things. One is we didn't get to see them much together. So we're, we're going on the concept of them, or what, what the reality of them

should be, but we're, we're having to kind of project a little bit. And two, um, I just think things are little muddled with the emergence of castle and the drafting of Harper and not being entirely clear on are the spurs, their combination slow rolling it with the youth and yet at the same time trying to accelerate it by going out and getting Darren Fox. And like even with Chris Paul, it wasn't, you weren't trying to win now. It was more like this is a great guy to kind of stabilize things and being on court leader and a mentor and all this other stuff.

And now, yeah, I'm just, I'm just curious. They've got these three really talented guards at various. stages of their career, two of whom are obviously toward the very beginning. I don't know. I just wasn't sure how to process what that will look like yet. But I absolutely, they should be on the list. And yeah, I can't wait. I can't wait to see. And I hope Deer and Fox defensively is re-energized by being with a functional franchise to say nothing of one of the greatest defensive bigs we've seen in modern times. So, yeah.

Two quick things, Howard. One, I want to shout out Carter Bryant when I was mentioning the defensive players who could have an impact and limit Dearen Fox's role on that end. I feel like as a rookie, he will be in the rotation and he will also be awesome. Okay. Number two, when you were going through your list of the 30 teams and the duos, where did Peyton Pritchard and Chris Boucher rank? I'm so curious to know.

Wait, did this, self-thics. You know what I did? So on some of these, I just did, like, I typed Brown Tatum, and then I put the line through Tatum, and then I put white question mark. I did, like, Halliburton-Seacum. I had to put the line through Halliburton. I had, like, Janus slash sadness. Yeah.

Was what I wrote for the bucks. Because I couldn't even come up with, like, who's Janus and who, like, again, Janus and anybody should be really good. But I was, like, Janus and, like, who's the second best player or the second most of, it's probably Miles Turner? I had, I had, I had Janice internet on my honorable mentions. Oh, okay. All right.

I had sadness. Also fair. Yeah. The LOL list. If you can get sadness on the mid level, like, you got to do it, you know? You know? Um, so I, and then, of course, what is the funniest two-man combo? And it's probably Michael Porter Jr. and Cam Thomas.

But, but Cam remains on side. So we have to withhold that honor. until that is resolved. All right, number three for me. See, this is why I thought we'd go from one to five. No, because we're starting to get to like the really great teams. They're the really great duos. And those are the ones that are like so obvious that they almost don't need to be mentioned, right?

I actually just, I'm waiting with bated breath on who you pick. I have no idea. It's not Joellen Bied and Tyrese Maxie, but I was really tempted. So that was my landmine. I was going to throw at some point in the conversation. So now I've thrown the landmine. But no, it's not them. Shegild is Alexander or Jalen Williams.

J-dub. I mean, this is like so stupidly obvious that that's why I said like one to five would have been like, because we could have just like checked off the first couple of these, I think, and then gotten into the ones where it's a little bit more of a judgment call. But I mean, there's so much just obvious here. Let me just state all the obvious. One dude's the MVP. And the other one's all NBA third team as a 24-year-old and all defensive.

And they're both incredible two-way players. They were plus 13 per 100 last season in a lot of minutes across a lot of games. Like, they're fucking awesome. They can both kill you as scorers and as playmakers. They can lock you up defensively. They are young and have a ton of time ahead of them. They are both still improving. Jalen Williams just helped win a championship and had some incredible games along the way with a torn ligament in his wrist.

They're fun. They both seem like incredibly good dudes. They are about all the right things. And, yeah, I mean, we talked about this earlier when we were talking about templates for what a great duo has been historically. And usually historically, we had decades of like the guard center combination or guard big. And we talked about, you know, wing, wing, you know, but not a lot of guard guard. I don't know. Where do you want to, is J. Dub a wing or a guard or whatever?

Like, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's played center last year for like two weeks. It's, yeah. I mean, traditionally, I think he would have been a shooting guard classified, but in today's NBA, it, like, his versatility is also one of his assets. So I don't know where you want to classify him. Who cares? They're amazing together. They're awesome.

They're fun to watch. They have all the possibility in the world of winning more titles to come, even in an era where it's really hard to sustain success. I was tempted to make them number one, but they are no worse than number two. And yeah, on my list, by the way, I'm factoring the fact you and I both had Brunson and Kat in our top five. You're making me my words a little bit because I also had SGA and Jalen Williams number two. I have a question, though, because the compatibility issue is, was kind of front and center for me while I was doing this. And I was going back and forth between that and just them, obviously, winning the title. You have the MVP.

You have Jalen Williams, who had a 40-point game in the finals. You have the Jordan Pippen, LeBron, Wade, Tatum, Brown, lineage. that they're kind of stepping into. But then I thought about game four of the finals and watching those two in tandem just slice and dice in the fourth quarter, the Indiana Pacers defense, where Jalen Williams just kept setting ball screens for She.

She kept setting ball screens for Jalen Williams, and they were getting good offense out of it in just an absolutely like critical on the road must win situation where that entire game it felt like the Pacers were about to go up 3-1 and their

calmness in that environment working together was so impressive that it's just like this is clearly like the duo and then the other thing in my head was like should Chet be in Jalen Williams place but then I was like well Jalen Williams is better

and again, I went back to that game four and I was like, who was really working with Shea to get him those looks that eventually won that game and got him the finals MVP and won the championship. And so this was kind of a no-brainer, I feel like. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're going to reach a point probably maybe as soon as this season where we're debating about the importance of Chet versus Jalen as the second best player. on their team. But I always lean toward the guy who you can put the ball in his hands and just get something done every time, right?

Like the advantage Julian Williams will always have over Chet as, you know, as the co-star there is he's a primary ball handler himself, you know, or a secondary ball handler. How if you want to, if he needs to be the primary ball handler, he can be. He's somebody you can just hand it to and say go get us something. Yeah. And the ability to create in today's NBA is so incredibly important. There's a previous version of the NBA where Chet as a versatile seven-footer and rim protector and all the other things he can do might have been, you know, might have ranked higher. But I think having guys who can do everything with the ball in their hands and create for you is so incredibly important that I think Jalen's always going to have the advantage in this discussion.

So I guess that leaves us with number one. And I guess we had the same number one. It was, I mean, it was too stupidly obvious not to. Like I said, this is why we could have done it the other way, gotten the obvious ones out of the way. That's fine. Can I? I don't do it.

I was, is there a world where this is not obvious? Where it's not Yolkitsch and Murray, you mean? Yeah. Like, I, I don't know. I guess like, for me, it is clearly. But, like, building the case against it doesn't feel impossible. Does that make sense? Like, you have, you have Jamal Murray, who is.

never made an all-star team. You have back-to-back seasons of them bowing out in the second round of the playoffs. Both are, I think, you know, Jamal Murray is average at best defensively, but more often than not seen as the weak link on that unit. And then Yokic obviously has his issues defensively. I think he's better than everyone thinks. Most people think, but has issues defensively for sure. So, like, there's a case to be made.

I suppose, did you consider that at all? Or did you just immediately, when you were doing this exercise, pencil them in at number one and not really think twice about it? Because I didn't actually put them in order initially anyway. I mean, I did, like, look, truth is, as I'm looking at my screen, they were at the top. And then it was SGA Jalen. And then I was kind of just dicking around with the rest of it.

Because those are the two that I didn't have to spend that much time to even think about. Like, they were just, those two pairings were so, just glaringly obvious. I think if you're going to try to make, so I think that would be the fun way of having the conversation then, right? Like, there's an argument against Yokich Murray, aside from Jamal Murray technically having never been all-MBA or All-Star, usually because of injury,

but like also stacked Western Conference, yada, yada, yada, yada. Sure. I don't know where the other hole in the case is. Availability, again, to Jamal, on the Jamal Murray side of it, there's an availability argument. Is there an argument just based on like if you took pairings at full health for a full month of games at any given time,

pre, you know, regular season or playoffs. And you just, and you just said, which pairing do you, would you rather have? Are we going to make an argument for, Gildes Alexander, Jalen Williams over Yokich Murray? Are we going to make an argument for Brunson and Kat? Are we going to make an argument for anybody? Like, no, I don't, I don't, I don't, As high on, you know, Mitchell and Mowgli as you are, Wembe and Deer and Fox as you are, like, as much as I love watching Jimmy and Steph, like, where is the argument to actually make of any pairing over Yokoch and Murray? I don't know that there's an argument to be made. If we want to go statistically, like, you know, I mentioned that the Thunder duo is plus 13 per 100, Yokochacha Jokachimuri last year were plus 11. per 100, but whatever. It's like, it's a couple points per 100 for two teams, two pairings that are just absolutely fucking elite and will wreck you. And those numbers will vary over the course of a season or a playoff series, I suppose. And by the way, the Denver Nuggets to me have, I think

by far the best chance to knock off the thunder. I don't mean that I think they're going to knock off the thunder. I mean that of all the potential contenders in the West, I put them distinctly ahead of the Rockets who everybody has just kind of like slid into the top three. I think they will be top three regular this season. But like the team I have the most faith in to potentially knock off the thunder is Denver. And I don't really have a second place in that argument right now. I think the Rockets, there's a little bit of wait and see for me. And I think some of the other teams that that are in that big, massive group between three through eight, three through 10, whatever it is,

I think we're just going to have to see how some of the stuff plays out. But to me, the nuggets are the ones who I have my eye. Yeah, it's August 7th, but I will probably be picking the nuggets to win the NBA championship whenever we have to make those predictions heading into the season. I said the same to somebody last week. I mentioned I've been teaching, and one of the students on the final day was just like, it was just like, ask me anything. So like, who's winning the championship?

And I, off the top, my head said Denver because I'm always in this, era, I'm never going to pick anybody to repeat. Just the odds are so stacked against you to repeat. And I think the Thunder can repeat. They should repeat. But it's hard to pick anybody to repeat. And yeah, if I had to right now, I'd say Denver. Yeah. So one, I think like their greatness transcends statistical accumulation and measurement. But there were 199 two-man combinations that played at least 1,000 minutes together last season, and none had a higher offensive rating than Jamal Murray and Nicole Yokic, 127 points per 100 possessions.

It's just stupid. But it's more just like the self-sufficiency thing. Like I mentioned at the top where it's just like, I don't care who is around these two. Like they had Russell Westbrook in a bunch of those lineups. You know what I mean? Like, like Zeke Naji in some lineups. Like they are, they made Christian Brown look.

I mean, he's a very good player in his own, right? I don't mean to belittle him, but made him look very good. Like, it just, there's just such a brilliance about the, like, telepathy these two have playing together. And they're so harmonious and it's so beautiful to watch. And they always get a good shot for either one of them two or one of their three teammates. and just watching since they won the title a few years ago, how the league has tried to adjust to their two-man game and then they are able to adjust to the adjustments

and still be so successful. It is like, it's just beautiful. I love watching the Denver Nuggets. I probably watch them more than any team because of Yokic and this two-man game when it's cooking is just completely unstoppable. And we'll be even more so because while we sit here and talk about duos and sometimes it's kind of like, hey, it almost doesn't matter who's around them.

Obviously, it always matters who you've got. And part of what's held the Nuggets back the last couple of years was just that slow attrition on the roster. And now you reload. You've got Jonas Valenciunis, who apparently is going to play for them after all and help keep Yokic fresh. And Cam Johnson replacing Michael Porter Jr., which, as I mentioned on Zach's pod recently, I think Cam Johnson's an upgrade. I know there's all kinds of ways to slice this stuff and maybe tradeoffs and height and other things, whatever. Cam Johnson to me is an upgrade. Tim Hardaway Jr. I've never been like a huge Tim Hardaway Jr. guy, but, you know, volume three-point shooter who's going to be playing with plenty of space to work off of those two guys and we'll get the best three-point attempts of his career probably. And Bruce Brown is back. Like, they've just, they're deeper than they were. They won't be relying on Zinaji or Russell Westbrook, for that matter. They're going to be that much stronger, I think, throughout the season and just throughout a game as, as, as.

we're cycling through guys and Aaron Gordon obviously still there. I, there's no great argument against Yokish Murray as the best duo in the league. And I think there's no great argument against the Nuggets as being the single biggest threat to the Thunder's Ring. Okay, I have two questions. Actually, I have a question and then I want to read you my honorable mentions. And then we can go.

Where would Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown be on this list if they were healthy? Oh, yeah. You would do this to me. I know. I mean, listen. It's what the people want to hear. Everyone's been waiting with bated breath, this whole pod, to know what Howard thinks about Jason Tative and Jalen Brown, hypothetically.

And pre-A-A-A-A-Bade it through the season, healthy. No worse than third on this list, I think. right no worse than and i'd be tempted to put them ahead of sGA and jalen only because of size and length um and kind of the similar like they can beat you at both ends we could start you know ticking off which guy is a little bit more skilled than the other you know tatum versus shay or jalen versus jalen um jillin with the y versus jailin without the y um but they're both they're both duos that have incredible two-way ability and that can just beat you so many different ways. And one of them happens to be much, much bigger.

And size still matters in today's NBA. So I would say no worse than third. And I might give them a slight edge over SJ and Jalen. But like you kind of default to the pairing that just won the championship. Yeah, I think to me it's a bit of a coin flip. and it's really hard to parse because of how good both duos supporting casts have been. Yeah. Because when I look at the Oklahoma City Thunder,

even though SGA won MVP deservedly amazing season, when I think about this team, that team that won the title, I will always think about their defensive identity. And defense being the reason that they won the championship, defense being the reason that they won so many regular season games and just mowed down the rest of the league and how that team was built, how that roster is built. And Jalen Williams is a huge part of that. And Shea is not a bad defender at all, but he's not like a all defensive team candidate at all either.

So I think that that is, and then you have Boston where it's like everybody can shoot threes. Cool. Like very well. and when they won the title and it was just one of the best offenses we've ever seen. So it's hard to, it's hard to kind of take both all four players out of their environments and measure them. So I think I would just flip a coin, to be honest with you. Yeah. It is, it is a coin flip.

And out of respect for all of the above, it's really hard to rank them versus each other. But, you know, that's what we decide to do. So before we get to your honorable mentions, and this will lead right into your honorable mentions, I'm just sitting here still in shock that you did not go to the Trey and Jalen Johnson given your fondness for Jalen Johnson or the Wagner-Bankero pairing, especially given your just absolute adoration, adulation,

all kinds of other aeons for the Orlando Magic, who I'm also shocked that you did not just predict to win the 2026 championship. But the disrespect you're showing, and for some all-time, like, Pina favorites here is, it's just knocked me off my chair. Look, they made the honor, both those duos made the honorable mentions list. I hope they were high on the honorable mentions. Was the honorable mention list ranked or was that just like amorphous?

It's pseudo-ranked. I won't say it's ranked. No, I can't. But they're both on there. And I have a lot of love for them both. And that might be the conference finals, Easter conference finals probably know. Those four going at it, you know, back and forth. If so, there will be hell to pay in Cleveland and New York.

Yeah, there will. Heads will roll. So real quick, I had Luca and LeBron. Kawai and James Hardin. I had them on my longer list. Yeah. Net rating, 14.1 last year in 882 minutes. Very good.

Very good. Wow. Anthony Edwards, and I had Rudy Gobert instead of Julius Randall. I feel like that's a... I was playing with those, yeah. Yeah. Palo and Franz, Steph and Jimmy, John Morant and Jaron Jackson, Jr.

You know, showing them some love. Had them there. I had Janus and sadness. Janice and Turner actually made your list. Yes. Trey Young and Jalen Johnson. I had him beat in Paul George. You said Tyrese and I was like,

you're actually correct. He would be the person there. Paul George is just like a sad third wheel at this point. Yeah. And then I had KD and Shangoon, which is just like I couldn't take seriously, but I had to throw the two best players on the Houston Rockets. So not KD and Amman Thompson, because that was the one I played with momentarily. Oh, that's interesting.

I still, I think that Shangoon is still the second best player. But again, if we were to do this like at Thanksgiving. Right. When we've seen what Amend came back from the summer with, right? Like we're all, and this is the, you know, obviously the challenge of some of these exercises, right? Like we're all expecting another leap from Amen Thompson. And if it happens, and depending how quickly it happens and how big that leap is and what it entails, there's absolutely a scenario where he's their best player and certainly their best player under 30.

And the idea of Amman and Kevin Durant as two apex wing types who can do a ton of stuff with the ball on their hands and, you know, Durant, maybe not as much defender as he once was, but still can, can, you know, can certainly, you know, give you a lot at that end. Those two together, all that length, all that height, all that ball handling, all that scoring. I played with it. But I don't know what Durant's going to have for them next season. How many games, injuries, everything else.

And you're probably right that on paper right now, it's still Schengun over a man Thompson, but I expect that to flip. But until we see it, maybe we shouldn't assume. Did I miss anyone? like BAM and Hero maybe? I just like, I didn't look. I don't know. Whatever.

We're getting real long list there. No, I like, when I was doing like the all 30, who were their best pairings and got down to my like LOLs eventually. I did have Hero Bam on the kind of the initial just first pass. I had Scotty Barnes slash somebody. Just the, the Brandon Ingram hatred. I mean, it's not hatred. I just, all right, never healthy. Not sure I actually want him as my, as my wingman type,

considering his, you know, general ball dominance and just, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not confident in the idea of him as, as the co-star. How about that? Okay. Fine. You know, that's a great place to end this episode. I feel like he can't do any better than that. That's it right.

there. That's the curtain call. That really, that really is it. We don't need to go to the rest of my LOLs. I don't need to insult more teams and more players. All right, this has been a blast. Pina, thanks, man. It was a great idea. We had a great dinner in addition to the great pod and the great idea.

This was fun. You got something coming soon. Sounds like on the ringer.com. I probably do not. I'm waiting on some things, but those things are probably going to happen before I get on a plane to go fly to an island somewhere. So my stuff will be back somewhere later in the month. Pina stuff will be back soon. And we will be back on this channel

before too long. And thanks, everybody. Have a great summer.