The Ringer NBA Show - Toronto Is on a Tear. Plus: Jimmy Butler Is Openly Recruiting Joel Embiid. | The Mismatch

Episode Date: February 11, 2020

We talk about how Toronto’s unbelievable win streak has kept teams like Boston, Miami, and Philly in their rearview mirror in the East (3:32), before breaking down the drama with the Sixers, Joel Embiid, and Jimmy Butler (29:56). Finally, we finish by touching on the Western Conference standings ahead of All-Star Weekend (35:32). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Microsoft Teams. Hey, NBA show fans, we all know meetings. Struggling to pay attention, files seem impossible to find. We're secretly streaming the game on our laptop while nervously tapping our foot below the conference room table. And if you're not in a room, you're not in the no. Luckily, there's a solution for all the meeting-related issues that we constantly complain about. Welcome to the new slam dunk to work together, Microsoft Teams. Using Microsoft Teams is one play that's guaranteed to work.

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And then you've gone to a meeting that probably wasn't even about you. And then you got to sit around for a long time. I'd give anything to have Microsoft teams. Because then I could just pull up my computer and now I'm part of the meeting. And I don't have to be down at the office for the meeting that wasn't about me anyway. Learn more about how to improve your work efficiency at Microsoft.com slash you. teams. That's Microsoft.com slash teams. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and typically joining me on Tuesdays is Kevin O'Connor, but I do want to give everybody a heads up because Kevin's been very open with our listenership about what's been going on with his father and the condition worsening.

Kevin is with his father. And I would just ask all of you to say a prayer for Kevin O'Connor and his mom and keep them in your thoughts because they are, going through a tough time right now on the family front with dad's condition. And so just say a prayer for Kevin, if you will. And I know that would mean a lot to him and his family, as he has expressed many times on the show before. Regarding basketball, we are going to talk with Jonathan Charks from the ringer today. Charks, good to talk to you, man.

Thanks for coming in today. Hey, man. Yeah, tough stuff. But, you know, I guess we'll just keep on going on. But shout out to KOC and his family. is tough, man. His strength through all of this, for those of you, I mean, look,

anybody that listens to the podcast knows, we've become real friends over the last three to four years, and I've talked to him through this whole thing. His strength through all of this, because mom had a health issue at the end of last year. Also, his strength through all of this

is something that is just absolutely incredible. I've been in awe of him being the rock for his family through all of this. And so here's hope. that Kevin's able to stay up and that he's going to remain strong because it's not it's not easy to deal with what he's been dealing with. On the basketball front, charts, this Toronto team, I know that their schedule has gotten

weaker. And there are people that are going to try to poke holes into what is an unbelievable win streak. But 15 in a row is 15 in a row, no matter who you are playing against. and they have been on absolute fire again last night, though they give up a ton of points, and Minnesota looks really good starting out last night. There they are, and they come away with the win against Minnesota last night, extending it to 15 in a row.

And I've got some numbers on this that will shock you. But your first reaction to seeing another win from the Raptors last night. The crazy thing is I've lost track of who's going to out for that team. It feels like every time you watch them, somebody else was injured and they just plug someone else in and keep it rolling. I think last night they had no centers. I think Gasol and Serge were out. To your point, yesterday in the Star in Toronto, they had these numbers that went along. Now, this was going into last night, a night where they shot over, it was, I want to say it might have been 50% from three last night. I've got it with me. Hold on now.

It's 53% from 3, 57% from the field. So look, the numbers got even better last night. But to your point about doing it with everybody, 15 in a row after last night, through the 14 games, they were first in the NBA and three-point shooting, 40% from 3. Over a 14-game span. Their ball hawking, swarming defense created an average of 22.5. points per game off of turnovers. That number was even greater last night as they forced 23 turnovers from the wolves.

They have gotten more than 10 steals per game. Six different players. Van Vleet, Lowry, Siakum, Ibaka, Terrence Davis, and Norman Powell have led the team in scoring at least once. Five of those, all of them but Davis, are averaging 17 points per game through this span. three undrafted players. Van Bleet, Davis, and Matt Thomas had 64 points combined in their win over the Nets over the weekend. They won six of 14 with at least one of their top seven rotation players out with an injury and have scored 118.3 points per 100 possessions, tops in the NBA. And that's all going into last night and those stats all got better.

Yeah, I think when I look at Toronto, what jumps out to me is like, this is going to sound obvious, but all their guys are good two-way players. Like all their guys are really good athletes. They can all defend and they all have a role on offense. And I think that's what allows them to be so interchangeable. It's like, no matter who comes in, you're still going to guard, you're still going to be athletic, you're still going to move the ball. And I think that's what allows them to kind of change identity on the fly because their identity doesn't, I guess it doesn't really change at all because they have these two-way. way ability. Look at like Terrence Davis. And I think looking back on it, that was one of the big stories of this draft was that guy missing, falling out of the draft entirely. And it's like,

man, okay, he's a 642 guard. He's very, very athletic. He can really shoot it. And sometimes you get also caught up in various narratives and this guy's up, this guy's down. It's like, two way ability matters. If you have a lot of good two way players, that's always the good starting point for a team. And you look at last year, without Kaua, they were also. You look at last year, without Kaua, they were awesome too in the regular season. Maybe we should see that coming again. Just that same two-way ability, that same depth of the roster, a good coach. That's taking pretty far on the NBA.

Regarding Terrence Davis, I think I tweeted this out at one point. Oh, I did because I will tell you what the response I got. So Terrence Davis is from like 20 minutes where I am. I figured he's an Ole Miss guys. Yeah, he's a Mississippi kid that went to Ole Miss. but I do that article about the guys who will not fail. And inevitably, I go, well, no, listen to this. I go through all the guys that are on any mock draft, right, and try to get a thought.

You know, because a lot of times when I'm talking to either college coaches or GMs or front office personnel or people that I've known from the past, they'll just say, eh, whatever. Like, you know, especially when I get to the second round guys, I'm not lying. I had an executive and my note next to Terrence Davis was should play football. And I tweeted that out one night. Oh, it was Hollinger that tweeted out something to the effect of how did everybody miss on Terrence Davis? And I said, I went back through my notes and interestingly enough, the note next to him said should play football. I had all these people from Mississippi telling me, bro, you should have seen him play football. evidently he was like a massive recruit for football.

Makes sense. And no, it does make sense. You see the kid and he is built like Adonis and he's six four. But evidently the kid was an amazing football player too. And so that became, which I didn't know, it became even more fascinating that the note was should play football. And the truth is he probably could have played, you know, he probably would have been along the lines of A.J. Brown and D.K. Metcalf and that group of guys. that went to old, I mean, imagine if they had all three of them. Imagine if they would have had, if they'd had A.J. Brown, D.K. Metcalf and Terrence Davis playing wide receiver.

I mean, maybe they would have won seven games instead of six or whatever they won. But he has been a revelation. And it's not just him. I mean, we talk about these other guys. You know, the Raptors have done this unbelievable job. Like, one guy that I just mentioned, who is Matt Thomas? Like, I think everybody, he's the one shooter. I know.

But I'm saying, I think everybody. that's an NBA fan around is going, who? Matt Thomas. And then they see Terrence Davis, like, who are these? Like, Fred Van Vleet was a huge college star. Terrence Davis and Matt Thomas were never household names by any means in college. But they have done an unbelievable job of identifying talent and developing it. And like you say, they got this plug-in-play system.

I don't understand how losing Kauai Leonard, I know what their record was last year. I get it. But they lost Kauai Leonard, right? And they are like, if you're the Celtics, you just have to be like, what the hell? You win every night and make up no ground. You make up no ground. The Celtics are like 9 and 1 in their last 10.

They haven't made up any ground. It is crazy. Like Boston, Toronto, they lost Kauai and Kyrie. But they had that, both teams have that, like, team-wide depth. And it's like, all right, it's a sense. system. We've got a program here. We're not just one guy and we can keep it rolling. Yeah. And so do you think, do you now look at Toronto much differently? I think that we've always looked at the Eastern Conference and known there's like that group of six. There's that group

of six teams, whether it, when it's, uh, we go from Milwaukee, Boston, Philly. Those are the three that we talked about the most at the very beginning. But you knew that, uh, Indiana, you know, could be good. You knew that Miami, you knew they were going to be up there. And then who's the sixth one that I'm just losing my mind over? I can't even remember offhand. Well, so there's Milwaukee at one, and then it's Boston, Toronto, Miami, and then it's Philly.

No, Philly, Indiana, that's six. All those teams. And then you knew there was going to be a drop off. And then obviously you've got Brooklyn, Orlando, and Washington. But I think at the beginning of the season, we thought, all right, let's wait and see on Toronto. We know they're going to be good. But if we're talking about the top tier, it's Milwaukee. I'd say Milwaukee and Philly were the teams that were picked the most by people going into the season.

And then you've got Boston, Miami, Toronto, Indiana, kind of in that next group. Okay. But now Toronto, I mean, they're right there. You know, there's a distance between them and three, which is Boston right now. Has your opinion changed on Toronto, drastically, from what we thought going into the season to what we've seen now? I think the main thing is really, so really Milwaukee, I think, has separated themselves, obviously.

They're at the top. And that middle pack, it really feels like Toronto and Boston have kept it moving and, like, Philly and you need have dropped off. That's what's happened more than anything. It's like Toronto's maintained their same pace. And Philly, we all happen to Philly. They're, who knows anymore with them. Indiana and Oladipo, he's really struggled since he come back.

I think they're like 0 and 5 with him. He's been playing really poorly. So we'll see what happens there. But it really just feels like Toronto's kept the pace. Other teams have fallen back. And it's like they're doing what they do all the time. They're plugging along. And then really with Toronto,

it's Siakum, right? It's that emergence. And like my theory with that is like, when you have a team like Toronto, when you have so many good two-way players, you're going to win games. And when you win games, your leading score becomes a star, right?

So it's almost like you have this foundation and it propels the guy forward. It was almost like there was going to be a star from this team one way or another because they play two good defense, they spaced the floor too well. They're going to win a lot of games. When you win a lot of games, one guy kind of moves to the front.

And it's like a team success, but Siakum has like kind of been to lead on that because they're so good, now they have a star. It's like they have this foundation that allows guys to become stars, if that makes sense. It's kind of like it's reminiscent of,

you know, if people want to do the Jordan Kauai thing, especially when it comes playoff time, I mean, if he wins a, third championship with a third different team. He goes into a different class in NBA history. But if you want to do that, when Jordan left, that team still had a chance at the title, right? I mean, they're right there at the very end of the Eastern playoffs. And that's the Pippin year, right? Where he calls the play for Coo coach and whatever. But if we're doing this, then you draw the lines where it's kind of like Siakum is the Pippin, who is good enough to be the best player on an outstanding. standing team. We'll see what the ceiling is, right? The ceiling gets raised when you have somebody

like Kauai Leonard, obviously, and they needed him desperately when it came playoff time, and he was the best playoff performer. But much like those Bulls teams, like we've seen LeBron leave teams and them turn to absolute crap, right? Yeah. And there's sometimes where a guy can leave, like in that Jordan situation is the one that stands out the most. Like the Bulls were still awesome that year. You know, they won high 50s. Yeah, 55 wins, right? Yeah, I mean, they have 55 wins and they're like, they're on the doorstep of being able to maybe be in an NBA finals again without Michael Jordan.

And I think this is more like that than maybe anything we've seen where it's like, of course, Kauai takes them completely over the top. But this team is way better than maybe we would have given it credit for even without Kauai. I know they had a good record last year, but, and I guess we'll see, come playoff time, right? If that's where it shows up, that during the regular season, they are still absolute dynamite and an outstanding team, and it may show up where it's time for that somebody to go take over and win the game. And when you had Kawhi Leonard, it made you a different deal.

Yeah, that's just like. Yeah, that's going to be fun to watch in the playoffs. Like, I mean, forget the Milwaukee thing. First, that's a whole different conversation. But in the second round series, if it's a different deal. It's like Boston, Toronto or Toronto, Miami. So, like, can Siakam outplay Jimmy Butler? Right.

Can he outplay Jason Tatum or Jalen Brown? That's really fun to watch on that level. Oh, for sure. And is he going to be the guy that, like, takes over the games at the end of games? I mean, we saw Jimmy Butler take over at the end of games for Philly last year. Like, there were times in that Toronto series where the last four minutes of the game, you didn't know Ben Simmons was on the court. I know.

that's what the playoff shows at all, right? It was like, okay, Ben Simmons, blah, blah, blah. All right, end of the games, it's Jimmy time. Now we'll see in the playoff. That kind of reveals the real story. Yeah, the other side of the coin on that, uh, wrapped their win last night was the T-wolves who looked dynamite offensively. They're certainly at the start of that game.

They ended up with a huge amount of turnovers, 23 turnovers, which turned into a boatload of points. Their percentages were good. The total that they scored was good. And it was the first Russell game. He had 22 for him. Towns had 23 for them. And, you know, I was, I don't know how you feel about this, but post-trade deadline,

I really, really liked with this Gerson Rosas guy did in Minnesota. I like Culver. I've been a huge Beasley fan. Yeah. Hernan Gomez is a player. And all those guys had 15 points last night. And they ran into it with this, with this fiery hot Toronto team last night. but they also look, in fairness, Minnesota, I read this this morning,

they haven't won in Toronto since 2004. So, man. That's like 16 years. They haven't won a game there. So it ain't just this version of the Raptors, or I mean, this version of the T-Wolves. I just think they had their best game in like a decade against the Clippers over the weekend. And then this was the second time out, and they were going to get Russell in the mix. I just, I look and I see much more competent,

more competent basketball players on that team. And I know everybody is beating Russell up to death about everything he can't do. But there's a lot of things he can do and he's still really young. And I like this. I mean, I like what they've done. And I think through two games, that is a, it's clearly a much more fun team to watch than that prior version, is just becoming absolutely miserable.

It's miserable to watch because not only did they suck, they looked like they were all miserable out on the court. Yeah, when you can't make jump shots and you're playing in the NBA, you can't win games. And we can't win games. It's hard to get out there, have much energy. I like what you brought up about Beasley and Wancho,

and I think that gets underplayed nationally is just the importance of having multiple good players. Like, everyone's focusing on Russell and Kat for good reason, right? They're the centerpieces now, but those guys need good players around them. And this is the first time in a long time they've had good players. Like I've been going through Kat's career.

Okay, when you can play Russell, Beasley, Wancho, Cat, you actually have floor spacing. He's never had floor spacing before. Even on those like team with Tibbs, it was Jeff Teague, Jimmy Butler, Wiggins, very compressed space.

Todge Gibson too. This is the first time in Katz's career he's had space around him. And it's going to be fun to watch like Cat with the good supporting cast. I'm expecting, you know, 40-point games going forward. Well, and he led the team in assist last night

Because guess what? To your point charts, there's somebody to throw it out to. You don't mean if you throw it down to towns Or you throw it to him at the elbow like, okay, it's great to have the concept of, hey, throw it down, now they're going to go double him, and he could throw it back out to somebody. But like, there's nobody to throw it back out too. Throw back out to somebody for what?

You right? Exactly. All right, so Andrew Wiggins could take three dribbles in, Jared Culver or like there's nobody to throw it out to now he's got a couple guys he can he can throw it out to so if you're either it's now a do or die proposition you're either going to pay that attention to cat or you are going to he's just going to mow you right and so yeah they've same what russell can hit threes too so i mean they've just added guys that can knock down shots which is the best thing to build around towns i like what

they've done. And I'm not going to hold last night against them. They will have some defensive lapses for sure, but at least they got players now. I guess, and I, and I'm just higher on Beasley than everybody else is. Nice. I'm with you, Chris. I've always liked Beasley. And like Denver, Denver's, um, if they draft someone, they're usually pretty good. You look at Denver's like the last six, seven years that front office, all their guys, like Monta Moore second round pick, Nicola Yokic, Jamal Murray, Gary Harris. If you're on that Denver roster, you can probably play. and they had just two guys who couldn't get minutes because they had Michael Porter behind them.

They had a bad year this year because poor took their jobs. There's no knock on them. And for Beasley, he goes into a situation where they've got, like, I get that they run their offense, you know, through Murray and then through town or through Yolkich, the majority of the time. And those, and they'll even have those guys bringing the ball up the court. That being said, Beasley walks into a situation where he's on a team with Jamal Murray, Gary Neal, or Gary Harris,

who they had given a big contract to. Will Barton, who they signed last year and gave money to. And it's like, that's honestly for natural two guards, like guys that you would want to play as your two guard on a team. And guess what Beasley is? He is a natural two guard. And it's like, when Gary Harris was out and guys were out last year, he was absolutely awesome for them, Beasley.

Like, there's been very few times when he gets. real minutes. If you just told that kid, you're playing 30 minutes tonight, that he's not going to really produce for you and sometimes produce really big. So I thought that was a sneaky, great acquisition for them during this, during that whole trade deadline. Let me move on to a couple other teams that we have seen. So Utah has now won these two games in a row,

the first with this incredible buzzer-beater that they had the other night from Bogdanovich. And then you have last night them going on the road and beating Dallas on what which shouldn't be easy by any means, considering they were on the second half of a back-to-back of a, you know, a blood war game that they had just had that they won. Dallas, who, you know, the talk of the town has been, and you can speak to this because you're there, how bad they've been at home versus how good they've been on the road. and so it's not like that is not being talked about a lot. And it was very shocking to see them come out of the box so flat and Utah just jump all over them last night, considering it's been such a talking point about getting off to good starts. And certainly you know a team's walking in should be theoretically limping in, considering the game they had played the night before.

And instead, Dallas just comes out crazy flat. Utah jumps on them and is able to get another win that would have gone a long way in the standings for Dallas if they catch that win. I think for the Mavs right now, the big thing, well, A, obviously, Luke is out. And unfortunately, that happened right after Dwight Powell got injured. And I think they're still figuring out what this team looks like without Dwight Powell. Like, he's not a big name, but he was a huge part of what they did because Dallas was like a pure spread pick and roll team. It's like pick and roll the entire game, Luca throw a lobbs to a big without Dwight Powell. there, they're having to find a new identity.

Because Chris Tap is not really a role man. They have Kleber coming in. He's more of a stretch shooter too. And then right when Dwight Powell goes down, Luca gets hurt. And so right now they're really in a flux. They traded for Collie Stein, but it doesn't feel like Carlisle really trusts him yet,

and it's meant to have been up and down. So right now, Dallas is like in a total flux. They need this All-Star break really bad. They're kind of limping home right now. Yeah, let me ask you about them and what you think, because, look, let's take the big view of this. Because anybody that looks at the standings, it's like, hey, they're still

right there in this playoff race. Yeah, it was not good to lose last night to Utah because that would have helped the ton. But they're 32 and 22, which 10 games over 500, who knows if they'll get this game before the All-Star break. But when we take a step back and

I tell you, you got to remember they got off this blazing start, they're 17 and 7 to start the season. So that's when they got to 10 games. over 500 was it 17 and 7 okay so we say they're 32 and 22 right now that means that they've just played 30 games with luka without luka i get it with porzangas without they're 500 right they're 500 they've been 15 and 15 and that started on december 12th so that's not like you know we're not talking about some kind of small sample size here you know if we go all the way back to December 12

over the last 30 games, they're 15 and 15. So my question to you is, is what their destiny is, is it to be closer to the 10 game over 500 team that they played like when we once saw them at the beginning of the season? Or is it, should we pay attention to the fact that they've been a 500 team since mid-December and maybe they're closer to that? Or is it just somewhere in the middle? what do you think?

And I'm saying with Luca back after the All-Star break, are they more the 500 team that we've seen for a 30-game sample? Or are they more like the first 24 games when they were 17 and 7? I think they can get back to their original form. I really do think it's going to come down to finding that role man again, whether it's Colley Stein. I mean, I love to see Kid Gilchrist play some five. They signed, I guess, yesterday or this morning or whatever.

They signed him this morning, and he's got to say, their defense because their defense has been abominable. It is kind of funny. I saw him when they came in with the Hornet. He came off the bench and I was like, I'll be damn. He's putting Michael Kid Gilchers in. I went and looked and I mean, it was just DMPCD all the way down this kid's season. They hadn't even used him at all. Yeah, he's been out. He doesn't even play. And, you know, he is the guy that is, you know, I talked to Tony Allen. every week and we goof about this that like the league's just passed you by brother like there's no place for a guy so I would love for it if he could prove that okay there is a place for a guy like him

in this league that could really help a team if you have offensive guys like Luca like Porzinga is like right if he's if you're mixing him in that because the whole idea is you know coaches can't take that an offense just disregard you completely, right? Like, he is just do whatever you want. Run around. It doesn't matter. We don't care. Run around wherever you want. We're now going to use another guy and make life hell on Luca on him. Like, we're going to punish you for putting him in the game because he can't shoot. I would love for him to, you know, wedge his way into being useful. I think the one role he might be able to have, if you look at him physically, he's about the same size as Dremont. Like, he's a pretty

big guy for a 6-7 wing. I think he might, could be a role man, right? Because that makes defenses respect him. So he sets a screen, he rolls to the basket. I think he can get a four-on-three going. He's a pretty decent pat. He's a pretty smart player. I think a four-on-three in space might be a way to utilize him on offense.

He's not a crazy athlete, though, Charks. Like, I mean, how many of those is he finishing? It ain't like he's, you know, Powell's a hell of an athlete. So he's finishing everything. this kid Gilchrist I mean he's never been an athlete I think that's got to be his role though if he's going to stick in the league it's as a small ball five because he's not going to shoot pick and roll layups yeah he's not going to shoot like we've already established that at this point like that's not going to happen so it has to be as a guy who kind of attacks the rim and gets into the

paint and like make smart plays if that's not going to be there to be his last year in the league I think yeah you do wonder if he can actually help them certainly look now they just need some form of defense on this team because they have just been abysmal. You know their offense is good. Everybody knows their offense is good. It's just can they get any stops? And for the last several weeks, the answer's been no. I mean, they've been teetering towards the bottom of the league in that.

So it's been a tough go for Dallas. But you think that once Luca gets back healthy and they get their guys that they will be able to get things back going? Yeah, I think they just got to figure out the Dwight Powell thing. They just got to figure out if it's Collie Stein. if it's Kid Gilchrest, like find some way to replace that role, man.

I think that is the key. Because for Dallas, like, realistically, offense leads a defense for Dallas. If you can score baskets, you get back on defense, you're on transition.

I think for them, like, they're never going to be a great defense. They have to have their great offense kind of help them along on defense. So if they're not going to, like as counter to it sounds, if they're not going to score,

they're not going to guard either. All right, sharks, we'll get right back to it. First, I want to remind everybody, today's episode brought to you by Ladder. Do you have enough life insurance? It's this thing we all know we need, but keep putting

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Take care of your home team. Visit ladderlife.com slash NBA. That's L-A-D-D-R-Life.com slash NBA. Latter-life term policies are issued by Fidelity, Security Life Insurance Company, Kansas City, Missouri, not available in New York. All right, let's move to the unnecessary drama that always follows the Philadelphia 76ers. Joel M. Bede yesterday posts, you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Hashtag the process.

Everybody then perks up because Jimmy Butler responds, I know a place where villains are welcome. And so now this is going back and forth. that like there's even headlines out there. And then Joel Embed responded to him, damn right, my brother. And so it's like, oh, geez, are we doing this? Are we doing the, are we doing the whole open recruitment of Joe L. Embed from Jimmy Butler?

I mean, again, the unnecessary drama that follows. Because you know when Joe L. Embed, he knows exactly what he's doing when he responds to Jimmy Butler, right? Like the Jimmy Butler, him responding to that picture, can just be like, oh, look at Jimmy, you know, climbing around or, you know, he's trying to recruit Embed. It is when Embedd responds to it. With damn right, my brother.

It's like, that's when everybody's like, wait, what? This is crazy. I mean, they've already been the disappointing team. And this is like so unnecessary, right? Like, just let it go. The thing about it is, though. Chris, maybe it's necessary. Like, maybe they got to get broken up.

Maybe Joel sees the riding on the wall. He says, all right. It's not going to work. Let's figure something out. I mean, if I'm Joel Embed, I'm thinking about last May, right? It was me and Jimmy at the end of the games. And Ben was kind of doing nothing. And that was working pretty well.

And they broke that up to keep him and Ben together, it doesn't work at all. And if you're Joel, it's like, all right, let's be realistic about this team. It's not going to win. So let's figure something else out. Yeah. well, now everybody is then going to figure out like, oh, well, how can Miami get Joe L. M. B. there? I mean, he's under contract through the 2022, 23 season.

You know what I mean? I mean, look, if we line up Joe L.M.B.'s contract with Jimmy Butler's age, Jimmy Butler will just have finished his age 33 season at that point. And so that's why this becomes so fascinating. He's like, this guy is not a free agent coming up. This guy isn't a free agent for a long time. Well, we know how that goes now, Chris, with free agency. It doesn't really matter, right?

I guess every, you know what? Maybe we just need to throw out the whole free agent thing and just realize that everybody's a free agent all the time, even if they have a contract. Hey, it's 2020, man. It's free market. He is. And because it's Jimmy, who. he played with just, you know, last spring.

And then their season isn't going like they want to go and like, you never hear. It's just that that old Billy thing. And I know that it's not exactly some kind of happy go lucky place, Philadelphia. And that negativity, you know, is kind of the mode of operation in many cases. But damn, if there is like, can you remember the last like? positive thing you remember making headlines from either somebody saying something confidently, like we're going to go win the title or like we think we can match up with anybody in the league. Like it's always Al Horford bitching or Ben Simmons moping or Joel Mbid responding to comments,

you know, talking about how you live long enough to become a villain and then responding to Jimmy Butler. And it's always like about Brett Brown. and then Brett Brown, like, coming out and talking about how, you know, Ben Simmons won't shoot threes. And it's just like, is there ever good news? Like, it's just always, it's like, it's just this constant negativity about it. It's bizarre. It feels like it has to go back like three years ago when there was no expectations,

when they were this fun young team, when they had like Sarge and Covington. That was the last, like, fun times there was. And then it was, all right, the guy won a championship, we'll try anything. they've tried a lot of things. Nothing's worked and people are getting frustrated. I mean, I get it. But even their own players. You know what I mean?

They're the ones who see it the most, right? Players always know, you know, Chris. And they just brought in Al Horford. You know what I mean? I guess the only guy that is probably like super happy is the guy we never hear from, which is Tobias Harris, who's got like a billion dollars, right? He's got a billion dollars.

He's going to get a lot of checks. He's like, I don't give a crap. What's going on? I've got a billion dollars. What do I care? Yeah. This is like his fifth team in five years, and now he's gotten made almost $200 million.

What a country we live in. You want to get shocked for anybody out there. Just go, like one day when you dive in the, you get in the wormhole and you start looking at who the, you know, the contracts of guys, go pull up Tobias Harris is sometime. I mean,

and your, your mouth is going to hit the floor. Because it's one of those ones that, like it just get signed. And then you move on. Like, everybody talks about it for a minute, because it's not like he's a huge star player or something.

And then when you see it on a piece of paper, you're like, oh my God, this guy's going to get paid like $40 million in a couple years, like a couple of seasons down the road. Like what is happening? Right place, right time. Hey, he's happy. We'll give it to over that.

All right. Real quick look at the standings and what has gone on. we mentioned Toronto. I mean, the story would be Boston and how they have gotten it together and have really gotten humming, except that they can't make up any ground on Toronto. And so when somebody's got a 15-game winning street going on, your great run is not going to get the play that it necessarily deserves. But I do think it's something to keep an eye on because the Celtics have really turned

a corner and have been great heading into this All-Star break. and you wonder what they can look like. Everybody kind of kept saying, like, they still have never had all of their guys. And it's like, all right, what's going to happen when they have all their guys? And the truth is they have been awesome. They've been awesome.

Yeah, and you look at that two, three, that's a really big race. Because you're looking like going from Indiana at sixth in the first round or Brooklyn at seven. So, like, if you can get that two seed, you can get yourself in a great position. So that's going to be huge down the stretch. Two seed is huge as is.

You know, look. I, you, you certainly don't want to be in four or five, because you're going and having to play Milwaukee and Milwaukee's going to have home court. You know, I think that even given this recent run, you and I still both go, all right, we're not sure of how it's all going to play out when it comes playoff time for the Raptors. We're not sure. Like there is a, there's a question mark because they don't have Kauai. And so when you get into a playoff series where you're just preparing for,

the opposite team, I would certainly handicap, despite the fact that their record isn't much, much worse. I mean, it's six and a half games they're behind. I would certainly say, I would much rather play Toronto

for my chance to get to the East Finals before I have to beat Milwaukee than try to find Milwaukee in the second round. And so that four or five thing, you just got a jockey to get out of that. You've got to get away from that. Yeah, that's that two, three, four. So if you're Miami at four,

you got to get to three. Yeah. If you're at three, one, get two. I'd rather be six. I mean, depending on how, if it's today, if it's today, I'd rather be six, right? Because then I'm playing three. I just, I mean, and you know what, Toronto's only two games are ahead of Boston. So we may look up at Boston's the two, and we may be saying we want to stay away from them.

I mean, the truth is two is a great spot because we've talked about there's six fantastic teams. two is a great spot because you know you're playing seven and seven there's going to be a huge drop off to seven from six to seven so that's why two is just I mean everybody coming out of the all-star break is going to be gunning to try to get that two seed because you know I mean like as of today you'd be playing Brooklyn I mean Brooklyn or Orlando are the two teams down there on the other side Western conference it's all gotten bunched up except for Dallas who has now falling back, and, you know, which was once a home court advantage team, they're now sitting

at seven. And that's why I asked you what you think they can get back going post all-star break. They're only a half a game back from Oklahoma City. They're a game and a half back from Houston. But the question is, is Dallas, you know, at the beginning, they're a home court advantage team, and now they're a seven seed. I don't think they have a great risk of missing out on the playoffs by any means, given their record, because even if they were, you. went 500, they'd still end up with, you know, being 10 games over 500. But being, again, seven, I actually, geez, you'd be playing Denver in the first round. Like, that's not the, it's a difference if Denver, depending on if Denver or the Clippers,

end up being the two seed. The big thing to me is that 3, 4, 5. If you can get to 3 and you're playing either OKC or Dallas, that a 4-5, that a 4-5, the first shot of the West is going to be a war. If it's like Utah, Houston, Clippers. Yep. One of those, the team gets out of that is in a great position. Because you want to play four or five.

Do you think Memphis can hold on to eight, or do they get replaced by Portland, San Antonio, New Orleans, one of those that they're in a dog fight with? I mean, I'm looking at it now. Like, I really was excited about the Pelicans with Zion, but they got to make up five games in like a month of two months. That's going to be tough. It's a big game tonight, big, big game tonight, which they are saying Zion will be available for.

Wait, what's the game tonight? Tonight is Pelicans Portland. That's a big one, yeah. Huge. For those playoffs standings, huge. With the way Dame is playing, I mean, dames are a whole different level than all these teams at the bottom. Like, if you have the best player in that race, it's always a huge advantage. And that would be the team that I mean, worry about right now if you're Memphis is Portland.

Well, and how about this? Portland is New Orleans tonight, tomorrow night Memphis, second half of a back to back. So they could go into the All-Star break with a whole different world ahead of them. If they could beat the Pelicans, that they beat the Grizzlies tomorrow night, it is, I mean, these are two monster games. Likewise, if they lost to the Pelicans and lost to the Grizzlies,

that is now you are making it a lot more difficult on yourself post-all-star break. So they're either going to go with, I mean, I guess splitting is fine. But if they're 2 and 0, they're going to go into the All-Star break feeling as high as they could possibly feel. And if they lose both, I mean, that is you're going to have to really gather yourself post-all-Star break and try to make a run because you're up against it. Yeah, it feels like the spurs are going to fall off. They're in the middle of those rodeo road trip to lose every night just about. Yep. And then New Orleans is so far back.

I mean, really it's looking at Memphis and Portland. And then you've got probably the more complete team in Memphis. but then Portland I mean when you've got a guy going for 50 every night like legitimately went for 50 you always have a chance any night any gay doesn't matter he has just been absolutely positively

unbelievable I saw I saw somebody post the other day it was his number like it's over the last 10 games he's averaging over 40 yeah it's basically hard he's going his own version of Hardin basically he's become his own version of Hardin

all right wrapping up here I do want to ask you something about the draft because this, you always pay very close attention to the draft. Speaking of the aforementioned Grizzlies, who I talked to you earlier this year, I mean, this is a team built in your mind because you loved Jaron Jackson Jr. You had Brandon Clark like in the top five on your mock, didn't you? I had him a three, yeah. You had him in three.

Hey, it's paid off. It's paid off, you know what I mean? because I don't know if he goes three if you redo the draft, but he certainly doesn't go where he went. You know what I mean? And so you have to be loving that. And last year's draft has ended up. Like, you look around and there's, like,

there's obviously two future superstars in Zion and Morant, but there's a lot of good players, you know, that are rookies. And then we just saw the trade deadline, and you saw teams not necessarily wanting. And I think about that whole story with Minnesota and the Warriors, not really wanting a pick in this upcoming draft necessarily. And the fascinating thing is because the word around is that this draft is not good at all. And I went and looked yesterday and charts after this Halliburton kid went out from Iowa State,

there's only three guys that are listed on ESPN's current top 100 players, three guys that are in the top 10 that are, like we even have a chance of, seeing in the NCAA tournament. Three. I mean, and it's like Maxi, the kid from Auburn. I'm blanking on. Okoro.

Probably the Arizona guys. Manion and Green. Manion, yeah. So, but like the rest of them, unless they win their conference tournaments, like the Anthony Edwards of the world, these kind of guys, clearly we got La Mello Ball and,

and R.J. Hampton. You got James Wiseman, who's not going to be involved. Cole Anthony, unless his team wins a conference tournament, they ain't going to be there. I mean, and then you got that Halliburton news, and he's made his way into top tens on a lot of these lists.

This draft, not only have people said it's not that good, it has gotten mutilated during this college basketball season. Even the ones we possibly were going to see, have tournament runs or get to see them in high-leverage games. Like, we're not even going to get to see them. You know, it's crazy. So I did a big Halliburton feature for the season. And I'm calling around for the story.

masked NBA people. And they're all like, yeah, he's fine, mid first round pick, whatever. And now he's like a top five guy. Yeah, I know. Hilarious. Like, no one told me for the year, oh, he's a top five pick. That was not a conversation I had with anyone. And now the way the draft has been, I would say what happens a lot of times. When people say a draft is bad, what they're really saying is this freshman class is bad because they're judging the draft based on the one and duns. Because historically, the one and done determine the strength of your draft. So what that tells you is if this is a bad freshman class, you've got to go looking elsewhere. And I could see the Euro guys moving up a lot in this draft. You've got Theo. Here's some names for the people.

You've got Theo Maladon. He plays for Tony Parker's team in France. You've got Denny Avija and Israel. Killian Hayes. He's a French kid. You could see some Euro guys we're not talking about be top 10, top five picks, but Thomas is all done. All right. Well, at least you're giving me some guys to pay attention to. I will tell you this. I don't know if anybody told you this. during your article, that Halliburton kid at Iowa State, so their coach is Steve Prom. Yeah.

Steve Prom from, it was previously at Murray. His assistant, James Kane, is he's the one that discovered John Morant in an auxiliary gym. Oh, yeah, okay. All right.

They got a good eye for talent. No, and now they've got this Halliburton kid. And I was like, Oh, yeah, Chris. It'd be pretty crazy. If the Halliburton kid goes way high in the draft because it was not a guy that everybody was talking about. And once upon a time, that guy, James Kane, he found like he was the discoverer of John Morant that ended up getting him to Murray State in the first place. And now they've got one at Iowa State of all things.

I'll give you a Halliburton story for you get out of here. So Halliburton is Wisconsin kid. He was actually in the same A-U team as Tyler Hero back in the day. So they were like a starting back court in like middle school, early high school. They're playing for a low-level AAU team. And at this point, when you're low-level AAU, like the big shoe compass come after you pretty hard, get on the circuits. And they told them, like, they both have the same thing,

Hero and Halliburton. If you want to be a big-time recruit, you got to go national, you got to play for Nike, you play for Adidas, whatever. And Hero was like, all right, deuce is, I'm going to my thing. I'm out of here. So Hero leaves his program, becomes like a top-10 player, goes to Kentucky. and Halliburton stays at home. That's why no one knew who he was.

He didn't play any of the circuits. So that's why he was not even a top 100 player. Even though in Wisconsin, it was always Halliburton and Hero for like Mr. Basketball in Wisconsin. But Halliburton becomes like an unknown guy because he doesn't go national on his AAU teams.

And now like three years later, it's all come full circle. Because he stayed local, he went to a smaller school no one was talking about. And now he's his big star because he didn't go national. Whereas Hero was like,

I'm out of here, y'all. I got to do my thing. And he ends up in Kentucky. Yeah, he's like, I'm not staying around because Hero was supposed to go to Wisconsin. And he's like, I can't go to Wisconsin. I'm Tyler Hero. Like, I got to do my thing on a big national stage. Hey, everybody I know in Kentucky said that dude walks around.

Like last year, they're like, I remember doing the draft research. And they were like, with Hero, it's just going to be a matter if the people he meets with are put off by it. because this guy walks around with like a swagger and an arrogance. Like he just, like he is step on campus and like, I'm Tyler Hero. You know what I mean? Yeah,

yeah, yeah. You go to Kentucky. There's always like five all Americans and like this is the one year like you're shooting, you're shooting specials. No, it's my team.

I'm the guy here. Yes. And it's like, changing it up. And they were all telling me. I mean, and these are people that live and die with Kentucky. They're like,

they're either going to love it, fall in love with it, which obviously Pat Riley did, or they're going to find it incredibly off-putting. But, you know, they used to say that. A good culture spot for him. They used to say that about Reddick back in the day, right? You either, like, embraced it and a lot of, but, like, he had too much confidence in the eyes of some people, right?

But look at, look at the career the guy's head, right? You can't, you can't argue with it. The reality of it is you're going to get attacked out there. Like, but if you're going to, if you kind of take the, take either go defense or go offense, right? Like, you're not, you're going to be a target out there if you're, if you're NBA player like that. So you've kind of got to push it forward and make yourself kind of pushing it. Because if you're like going to play it conservatively, you're going to get killed anyways. Charks, I am super appreciative of you filling in today. Thanks, brother. It was good to catch up.

Yeah, no problem. Good seeing you. Everybody, please say a prayer for the O'Connor's. Thank you to Bobby Wagner for producing another episode of the mismatch. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes. Five stars. Five stars really helps. And we will talk to you on Friday.