The Ringer NBA Show - Trae Trading Places. Plus, What’s Going On With the Thunder? | Real Ones

Episode Date: January 7, 2026

Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck are back with another edition of Real Ones, and they dive right into the latest NBA drama between Atlanta Hawks star Trae Young and the franchise. It’s been reported that both sides have agreed to look for a trade partner. Where will Trae end up, and what will the cost be? The Thunder have been going through a little rough patch the past couple of weeks. Is there a problem in OKC, or will the team bounce back to championship form? Plus, Raja revisits AIlen Iverson’s famous step over Tyronn Lue. Hit the mailbag! [e-mail] Hosts: Raja Bell, Logan Murdock, and Howard Beck Producers: Victoria Valencia and Clifford Augustin Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz, Conor Nevins, and John Richter The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out rg-help.com to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping, man? Happy New Year to all my Real Ones. This is Logan Murdoch here for another edition of Real Ones. The first of 2026, myself, Howard Beck, and Roger Bell are in the building where we talk about the biggest story in the league right now, which is Trey Young. And if he is going to get traded, or he is going to get traded, but where he's going to get traded to, is it going to be Washington or is it going to be another stealth team? We get into all of that.

We get into Tray's reputation around the league and how that's either going to help or hurt him. We get into his game and whether that's going to help or hurt him in the backstretch of his career as he enters his prime in what can go in either direction. And we get in a little bit of OKC. Is the sky falling there's six and six over the last 12? Who knows? Is J.W need to step up? Does Shea? Is he taking on too much responsibility?

Does Chet need to step up? All of that. Talk about that. Then we get into a fascinating discussion about Jalen Brown. then we get into another fascinating discussion about Raj's memory in the 2001 NBA finals and give flowers a Tailu. Really, really fun episode. Make sure you guys tap in with us every Tuesdays and Fridays and you know what time it is.

Real onesmailbag at gmail.com. Real ones mailbag at gmail.com. Real ones mailbag at gmail.com. Yeah, man, it's big things going on in 2026 for real ones. We're going big places. So we want you to come along for the ride with us. because this is for all of us. For now, Tuesday episode.

Cliff played a theme music. It's popping. Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Howard Beck there. Roger Bell over there. Real ones in 4K. We're getting ready for, you know, the big move, as they say.

It's good to see you guys, man. It's really good to see you guys. Happy New Year. I would do all the pleasantries, but let's get right to it, man. We're talking, we're talking Trey Young and the Atlanta Hawks, okay? Reports came out last night. It's a classic. we don't know what we're going to talk about or we do know what we're going to talk about.

And then some big news comes in. And then we're like, okay, we need to talk about this is the biggest story in the NBA. So we're going to talk Trey Young, who, him and his agents, Aaron Mitz, Drew Morrison, and Austin Brown are working with the franchise on a trade. This is from Champ Serrani. And then that was the first bit of news. And then the second bit of news is that the Washington Wizards, are vying for Trey Young services. Now, Trey Young has a player option for next season.

The Washington Wizards, reportedly, this is according to front of the show, Mark Stein. They are potentially pursuing Trey Young with C.J. McCollum's expiring deal, and Trey Young has a player option for next year that he's presumably going to pick up. First off, I'll start with Howard on this. I get why the Hawks want to trade,

Trey Young at this point. We have talked about this throughout the podcast and throughout this season. But why the Wizards? Why do the Wizards want Trey Young? Why would they presumably want them? Yeah, you know, it's funny actually the way this unfolded yesterday,

credit to our buddy, Mark Stein, because he had this first, it was like at 453, I jotted down, that the Wizards have emerged as legitimate destination for Trey Young is the way he framed it. And then like a while later, Shams had the other reporter about Trey and his agents working with the Hawks on this, blah, blah, blah, but it was weird because it was usually it's a, this player's now up for grabs.

He's being marketed, he's being shopped, whatever. And then you start hearing names of teams and possibilities. But this was like, the Wizards are a possible destination before we really knew for sure that they were looking to move him. So it's all kind of unfolding in a funky way. Just everybody's got their own, obviously, sources of information on this. The thing that hit me the first, or that hit me right off the bat was, okay Washington team that's in a rebuild lots of cap room lots of flexibility lots of contracts they can move cj McCollum expiring all this but why why why why would the Washington

wizards want Trey young at this stage because one they are still in tank mode and they have reason to stay in tank mode their pick is top eight protected but if it falls below eight it goes to the Knicks. So the Wizards still need to be tanking this year. Now maybe they think Trey Young will continue to help them tank given some of the results in Atlanta. But why would the Wizards after what looked like a multi-year tank and still young, still rebuilding, want to go all in for a high-priced star who has obviously not produced in the way or has effectively or been as much of a contributor to winning as he has been with the Hawks? It doesn't make a lot of sense. unless you get to that other line in Mark Stein's report, which was, it remains to be seen essentially

whether the Hawks might have to include draft capital to offload him, which is wild, right? A guy who is an all-star caliber player, one of the top assist guys every year, one of the top three-point shooters, a very talented, if flawed player, you're not usually the one including the draft capital, but it seems like that might be the case. And we'll see how this unfolds. we'll see if he ends up with Washington. If Trey Young is now firmly on the market as he appears to be, and if Trey Young and his agents are working with the Hawks to find a new home,

as this all appears to be, and no one's denying it, I would expect, A, something's happening in the next few weeks before the February 5th deadline, and B, Washington is a really intriguing, if strange, potential landing spot. I think with this, Raja, is... I know this is not your bag, but I'm going to throw it to you anyway. My thing with this, Roger, is it doesn't seem this particular trade to Washington, and we'll see if it does happen, like, what the final piece of the deal is.

But it doesn't seem to help anyone involved here, right? Because if you're Trey Young, you're getting into your late 20s, you seem to be wanting to go to a championship destination. This seems like another rebuild. It doesn't necessarily help Washington because all that they have been saying, at least behind the scenes is that they're going to shed salary and that they're going to try to take on your expirings. That's cool. And we're going to just try to draft or try to, you know, bring up, compile a whole bunch of draft capital, right? And then see what we do from here, right? And,

you know, see if a young guy could fit or maybe somebody else could fit within that framework. But, like, we're trying to tank. And this seems to, all this is going to do, I feel like if he goes to the Hawks, if Trae Young goes to the Hawk, it's just pissing. him off. It's pissed Tray Young off. And he's going to make his money, but he's not going to get what he ultimately wants, which is, you know, controlling the marketplace and, you know, a chance to win. As a player on this one, right, if you're Tray Young and you have given, you know, you've made the Hawks relevant, would you be pissed off that they would be, hey, man, you're going to send me to this place after all I've done for the franchise? I get you if you want to leave.

like, what the, that seems kind of out of pocket for the Hawks to entertain this, at least send him to a contender. It's not like they're sending him to something to play with Yannis. They're sending him to go playing NBA Siberia at this point. Yeah, I mean, shout out to Siberia. I'm sure we got, maybe we've got a fan. Yeah, I mean, as a player, you can feel however you want to feel. And yeah, I'd probably feel, you know, to some degree like that.

And I'm sure Trey, it doesn't want to wind up in Washington ultimately. but you don't have any control over where they send you in some of these cases. I mean, some people are powerful enough and contractually in a situation where you actually do control it. Trey's just a weird one. You said nobody wins in this. Trey doesn't win. I don't think Washington wins. There is a world in which, you know, C.J. McCollum plugged in to Atlanta.

I think they may win a little bit. They, you cancel that if they have to give up draft capital to offload Trey. But like if they're not giving it up and they're just getting C.J. McCullum back. I can make a case where that's a good look for them. Yeah, you know, I don't know. These are, obviously this isn't my bag necessarily. But, you know, Trey's in a weird spot as a player. Like, what, what are you?

What do you represent to losing teams that are trying to tank that may not want to be viable? As it relates to like lifting their floor up to a degree that, that prevents them from doing that. And with winning teams, I mean, can you fit into a winning recipe? Can you, can you, are you willing to augment your game at this point in your career to be a better fit? Are there things that you can do if you plugged into like a point guard needy team like the Rockets who I always use, right? Like are you at the point in your career where we might be willing to make some accommodations in our own game in search of what you're talking about, Logan, which is a destination that you might be able to win.

But that's not a one-way street in terms of Atlanta sending him to Siberia, right? Like, he's got some culpability in this as a player. And obviously other teams would have to see him in the light that would suggest he could help them win. And I don't have the answer to how they see him right now. I just don't. You brought up a really good point, though, and just like, the thing about Tray Young that is so frustrating is the lack of balance he has with talent and how to use that talent, right? Because when I watch him play, he can do everything. He can shoot the ball. He can do everything with play defense. He's not willing to do that. But he's one of those guys that

you see the stats and you're like, man, why isn't his teams better? Why doesn't he lift up his teams? And he's at a point right now where he has to change habits. Like it is what it is at this point. If he wants to get to the heights that he ultimately says he wants to get to, whether that's in Washington or anywhere else because I think at this point where a lot of factors are at play here. It's one, it's the new apron era that we see ourselves in, right, where like these high-priced players who don't give you everything aren't necessarily in demand as they used to be, right? Like you're going to have to give up draft capital to get them or you're going to have to pay a high salary on these basically a hard cap.

my question to you though raja is how does he do that on the fly not only like with a new team but also mid-season if this happens right because it's very clear that they're trying to get the hawks are trying to get up off of him mid-season that's a really hard transition to go through no well i don't have the answer to that it's super difficult um i don't want to say impossible but i have as close to impossible as you could probably get i what i what i'd like to say is is you need a behind the scenes campaign by your team, letting everyone know that this wasn't a tray issue, although there's a lot of data to support that it was.

But that's what you have to have. Like, what do they call those press campaigns when people are out there just trying to like say face? And like, but that's what you have to have behind the doors. You have to be selling like, hey, look, this was circumstantial. here's what happened over the course of his career in Atlanta. This is what he was being told as an organization. Here's where he's at now as a pro.

Umpteenth years in. Like this is what he's willing to do. Here are the sacrifices he's willing to make. Winning is the priority now. That's what you would have to do in my opinion because there's nothing that the player can do. Like the player's going to go to Washington, right? The player's going to be in a situation in Washington where he's probably still the best option.

It's going to revert him right back to what he was doing in Atlanta because, quite frankly, there's not a whole lot there that can help him be the other version of himself that winning teams would want to see him in a role suggesting that he would do it with them. So I don't have the answer. It's almost impossible. It would be a lot of back channeling, a lot of, you know, a lot of calls the front offices gauge and interest and trying to explain the situation and trying to let them know what type a soldier they'd be getting if they were willing to bring him in there.

Howard, what press clippings do they need to keep out of this press junking? Like, probably like everything that has been written about him, everything about like, like is he, are they going to, they can't call Lloyd Pierce as a reference here.

Like it's, it's a really hard sell to get Tray Young to like tell the team like, yo, Trey Young is like reformed and like he's going to, you know, these battle points are wrong and he can change. Like how do they convince, how do they convince a team that Trey Young is not who,

he is. Trey Young's been in the league long enough. Everybody knows who he. This is not, you know, there's no creative reassembling of press clippings here that's going to change his reputation, his image around the league. Everybody knows who he is. This is why we're talking about, it's not clear if Washington's going to demand draft capital to induce them to acquire Trey Young, right? The Hawks just want, and Trey Young, I think probably too, a hawks for sure, are ready for a divorce. And so the start of the start. point here is not, oh, we've gone another direction and Trey's really valuable. Let's see what we can get him to help keep building around Jalen Johnson and the rest he's like, yeah, of course,

that's the goal. But really the issue is we were really good this season and looking like we got a great young core. And like Trey starts playing and we start losing again. And there's, and it's not small sample size. They've got years of data as the Hawks. And the whole league does too, that for all of Trey's talent, his shooting ability, his passing ability, his playmaking often gets, I think, lost in the shuffle here, but he's a great playmaker, but he's a small guard, and he's a small guard who does not or cannot defend. And so, you know, your net rating with him on the floor, all the on-off numbers look really bad, traditionally. So what you need is to find a place where a team can absorb all of that and say, like, we can take advantage. We love his playmaking.

We love his shot making. We think he could be great here, but we've got to have the infrastructure around him to play, you know, to defend and to make up for the fact that we're going to have to stash him, hide him as much as possible, even though teams are going to target him constantly. So do you have a great defense that can counteract that? Do you have the kind of guys around him who will make sense? It's a really hard thing to figure out. It's a hard solution. And that's why this is, I think, going to take time or why he might just land with a team. like Washington. And by the way, quick thing on here that I did not mention in the opening part,

and I should. I don't think it's clear that the Washington Wizards actually want Trey Young. I think they're looking to shed some salary themselves. I think they're looking to possibly get some draft capital. They are still in a tank slash rebuild. I think there's probably another year to go on it. So either Trey plays there while they're still losing because that's what they're still inclined to do, or they're just going to try to flip them again. Or, and this is also in in the ether here, we should consider this. Trey Young's making $46 million right now, right? So there's step one.

You've got to figure out how to make up the salary and a trade. But step two is he's a potential free agent this summer. He's got a player option for $49 million for next season. If he thinks he can make more, he'll decline the option. And maybe somebody gives him, I don't think he's getting to start at that number again, but maybe a longer term deal with more money. Or if he doesn't think he's going to make anywhere near that, trade's going to pick up the option.

But if you're the Wizards or anybody else who has him, you're only on the hook for one more year at that $49 million next season. I think it's fully, fully possible here that the Wizards would be acquiring him just as part of their reshuffling, as part of their overall rebuilding slash tanking slash whatever they're doing. And that tray is they're temporarily at best. Either they're going to reroute him eventually or they hold on to him as long as they need to until they figure out what their path forward is. but if while he's there, they see the best version of him and they think they can figure out a way to structure around him, sure. But off the top of my head, I'd say, no, I don't think Tray Young

is the answer to the Wizards rebuild or is their kind of player for the administration that's running them right now. He does not seem to me like the logical star that the Wizards would look to build around after a couple years of a tear down. That does not make sense to me. So my best guess, if the Wizards get him, it's temporary. And even if it's

It's tough. It's so tough, Roger. Like, even if it's temporary, like, and say you rerouted Tray Young, like all that's happening over these games that he plays in Washington is his value is going to start to tank. Like, they're going to lose games. He's going to play the way he played. He's basically going to another version of the Hawks in this,

without a Jaylen Johnson, right? Where he has to, you know, be the number one option, not going to play no defense, probably got some good stats. and some legitimately good games, by the way, he's out right now. We're going to say, Ronzo, what's going on? No, to piggyback, it is the worst. If you're saying we need to show the league something different, that situation is the antichrist.

Like, you don't want to put him in that. At all, right? And I get the Hawks perspective, right? Because I got to give the hogs credit here for this one, for at least this point. They went into this season. They have a new regime, and they said, hey, you know what, Trey, we're going to try to do right by you.

We're going to put Prisenghis surround you. We're going to get Nikiel Walker Alexander. We're going to make a push because, look, people forget, it's not that long ago. We thought we'd be at Howard and maybe Roger picked the hawks as our sleeper, right? He thought that they could have the talent, maybe to go make a run. Okay, whatever, forget you. I didn't. I don't.

I don't remember. I want to be clear. I was not a hawk believe. I was like, I mean, maybe you could talk me into it at least, right? because at the beginning of the season, the Eastern Conference looked very bleak. And we're going to talk throughout the next couple episodes about the Eastern Conference is becoming. You guys talked about that last week.

But all that to say, I got to give them credit because they did do, in a sense, do right by their players and be like, hey, yo, we're going to just do everything we can to the best we can with this window that we have. Prozincas has been injured. Trey has been injured. They've seen enough, and they're pivoting right now. And I got to give them credit for that. Washington, I just don't know what they're doing. right now. Like you can't run two races at the same time because even, it's like say,

Trey says F it and I'm going to play really good this season, you play your way out of that protected pick, even if you do get draft capital, right? So like there's just so much, I'm very curious to see how this goes, right? Because you also want him, Trey, if he's going to do a hard reset, he should go to a team that is going to really be really strong as. a front office, and I'm not saying Washington isn't necessarily just have different priorities, I just don't know the perfect scenario for him to go. Because if you look at him and his, the way, we've talked about it all episode, he is a guy

that he's a great offensive player. But if you look down the league, say he goes at a Western conference, they are going to target him defensively, no matter what, even if he is on a team that is a contentious. Say he goes into Houston, oh, okay, bet. Oh, I'm Shage Gilgis Alexander. give me Trey Young every time. I'm switching on to Trey Young every single time, right? Same with, you know, if he plays, I don't know where else,

but that's a perfect example here. I just don't know where he goes with the change. Trey Young is just such a flawed player that I just don't know an upside to where he is in his career right now. And I think that's bleak, but I just think that's just real where we're at right now. I'm sorry. Was that too hard, Roger? No, no, I mean, no.

I feel for the player. I mean, it's always hard for me to see guys that are that talented. Because he's super talented and the things that he can do, super talented. And a fun watch at times. You can watch him and be like, damn, that's pretty, that's a wild shit. But, you know, and he's not the only player that falls into this category. He just happens to have the flaw of being the small guard who can't defend. Right.

So, like, you know, the six, seven guard that plays this way that can't defend usually is not a huge problem, right? The what guard? The what's all the guard? I mean, the six, six. No, I'm not, I'm not. Yeah, no, I know what he's trying to do. But I'm not, what I'm saying is the bigger player that plays like this because there are some, right? Like, and, and, you know, it's always tough for me, man, because, you know, I, I'm close to people who have people on it.

Atlanta and you know I started hearing this a few years ago you know I'm not as tapped in as you guys are at all the reports that they're coming out of locker rooms and stuff but you know I was hearing that they don't they don't like playing with him like these are good players and they don't like playing with them and you know sometimes it's hard for a fan to watch it's easy with tray it's hard with other players to watch them and their brilliance and and and and all that you love them for and then wrap your mind around like yeah but other people might not like playing with him like that. It's a hard thing. Like, because we are fascinated with the star itself and all the cool shit that they do. And then sometimes you got the player, you know, or the teammates like, yeah, man, but like, we're being marginalized in this. Like, this is exactly fun for us. And that sucks.

Like, so I just hate it for him. I don't think you were too harsh on him, but that sucks. You're bringing up a great point that we obviously didn't hit home, Roger, which is, yeah, the on-court stuff is, like, not great defensively, but, like, he was not only, like, well-liked among players, but definitely not well-liked among coaches, right? And I know he's been trying to do a rebrand over the last couple, what, a year or so, right? But even that, it's like, even in the rebrand, he's going at it with, like, Patrick Beverly, he's just doing stuff that just makes you go, like, why are we doing this? Like, what are, what's going on, right? And that's

going to be a, that's going to always be a jacket that's on him. And that's something that he's always going to have to overcome at this stage of his career when other teams are trying to pay him, right? And so it's just, Howard, it's just weird all the way around for Tray Young. I don't have an answer for what he's going to be in the next couple few years, but I just think that, you know, we're definitely at an impasse in his career. There's another wild piece of this, which is that you have this infamous, very noteworthy in NBA history. draft day trade of Tray Young for Luca Donchich, and here we are, they're both going to have been traded by the teams that ended up with them after draft day.

And the most shocking part of that, of course, being the fact that Luca was the one traded first or that he was traded at all. Also, quickly, like, Luca, though, they're both kind of at an impasse, right? Because those defensive critiques of Luca is starting to come back now, too, with the Lakers, right? For sure. Yeah. Luke has had the better career. so far, by far. Luke is going to have the better career by far, but the flaws in both of these guys

have caused issues. I mean, again, the Mavericks should not have traded Luke under any circumstances or at least under the circumstances that were existing at the time. But the concerns about him, the critiques of him, were valid at the time and valid now. You don't trade him because of that, but both of these guys have clear flaws that are creating tension. And, you know, Lucas' current team is going through it right now. The Lakers, obviously, the record's spectacular, but the results on the floor are not. The JJ Redick, every post game

just seems like a therapy session. And, you know, I don't know where that's going. We'll put on JJ Reddick. I don't know, like, I can't tell if they're winning or losing based on his press conferences. It was like every press conference is some sort of therapy session.

I think that's a JJ Reddick thing. Welcome to Los Angeles, JJ, where everything is championship or bust, and every day that you didn't win is a crisis. I've been through it from just, you know, obviously the other side of it, just documenting it for seven years. And like, that's just how it goes there. Standard operating procedure for the Lakers. But, you know, Trey Young is only 27 years old. So he's just beginning the theoretical prime, right? We consider it in the NBA to be kind of like,

you know, that 26, 27 through 31, 32, whatever it may be. Like, there's another chapter to be written here somewhere. You guys know you've heard me say this a million times. I'm never ready to just give up on a guy. And maybe it's going to take that change of scenery or just a different environment, whatever it may be, to get something better out of him. But there are certain limitations built in because of his size. Could he play harder on defense and be more attentive despite his size? Yeah. It's not, it doesn't negate your ability to play defense. It just negates your ability to play it well. And, you know, you're going to get switched on the guys. You're going to get picked on. They're going to get targeted, but he could fight a little bit more and he could be a little bit

better teammate because what Roger said is the same thing that we've all heard for years about guys not enjoying playing with him. And that sounds really harsh. I hate saying that because, you know, everything else about Trey seems like a good dude. But he, it's been a constant frustration. We've heard this for years. So, and yeah, it sucks that this is potentially just a way station kind of move where he gets offloaded to Washington and then the wizards try to flip him or let him walk away maybe as a free agent. Who knows how this goes? But I do think this is, you know, whatever the resolution is for the Hawks and Trey Young today is not a permanent resolution for him. It is for them. They'll get what they need to get or whatever the most they can get and they'll move on with a team built around Jalen

Johnson and they'll be happy to do so. They've got a lot of good talent. They've done a really nice job last couple of years of putting it together. The Hawks will be fine immediately. It's Trey Y' young who I think is going to have to do some work and also may have to put up with the fact that the next move is not the one where he's landing where he wants to be. It's going to take some time. I just have a hope for him that this is like an inflection point of sorts. Like, and he can, you know, we talk about this. Howard, when you said that he was 27 years old, that end of itself just blew me away. Like it just feels like it feels like he's older than that. So to hear, you know, from you that he's just approaching what we consider a

prime. My hope is that he has that past your prime moment where guys, we often talk about guys having to come to grips with, hey, man, like, I might have to change what I have historically done to fit into a championship culture or in some cases, it's just even to stay in the league at times. That won't be Trey Young's situation. But there could be a really nice chapter too. But it's going to take a little bit of change. And to your point, it's going to take some work from him. But the first part of that work is self-evaled, dude, like, and just come into grips with, hey, the way this, the way this has been working for me so far, isn't the way it's going to work for me moving forward unless your objective as a Tray Young is not to win championships.

Because if that's not what it is, and you just, you know, like you might say, hey, dude, I just fucking like doing it like this. This is what I'm going to do. And, you know, if that's what it is, then the Washington's of the world. You know, it's funny. Like, I think that you're saying that, Raja, like, there's, Howard said something that was really, like, he brought the prime age into this discussion, which I feel like is so valid and fair. But I think the other side of that, when you see these all-time great players going to their prime, it's that what comes with it is the self-awareness of both their body in their game and what the, and what the capabilities of both are at that time. adjusting accordingly, right? In 28, that's what Jordan was, he was still a high flyer,

but he was also covered to grips with like, yo, I need to get good on this fade away. I need to get good on this up and under. I need to get good on these other things, right? Same with Kobe, same with Steph, who was Trey's Idol, right? Like, there has to be an adjustment as you go through your prime because you're still great and you know everything during that time, but like you still have to adjust, right? I think about another, on another side of this, great career, a really good career, but not a great career, John Wall, who did not, and he had injuries, but did not adjust his game based on how his body was flowing through, right? And I think that that's something that Trey has to consider as well. Two final thoughts on this. One,

Rajabelle is way more tapped in that he lets on and says he is. And two, one thing that we're going to have to just see with these reclamation projects, there's going to be a big difference with this new apron era, bro, because, it's going to prioritize drafts a lot more. We're going to start seeing more of an NFL model where we're drafting these, trying to draft these superstars and pay them accordingly and then try to build around them.

It's not going to be as much outsourcing from others, outsourcing from other teams and what other disgruntled stars, right? Because the price is too high and it's going to take too much to get them. So, Trey, whatever it is, he's going to have to get in line. So we'll figure it out it's going to be a fascinating story to go.

And we're going to take a quick break and going to another fascinating story. The Oklahoma City Thunder next. We are back. The world is falling on Oklahoma City right now. It's just they're they're top of the West

but they're six and six over their last 12. They're five and five for all the conspiracy theorists that say ever since Chris Finch just complained about the refs and the foul baiting is just not working on.

But I think that we this is a good time to have an okay C discussion because I think it's just been building because they lost to Raj's Hornets, 127 to 97 at home. Damn, damn. We can go through an entire 12-month cycle of making references to Rajas' career,

never actually touching on that hornets. Like, well, oh, remember your son's days with Nash. Oh, hey, you know, Philly finals, Ivers. Charlotte? Like, man, that's cold, though. Bobcats, baby. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Bobcats, that completely different.

No, I watched the game last night, and it was just, it was crazy, dog. It was just, it was nuts. It was one of those things where it was like, okay, okay, see, should come back from this. You know, they should come back. They're down eight, they're now 20, but there's a lot of time. There's a lot of time, yeah. There's a Brandon Miller shot here. Bang.

There's a lamello shot from the corner that's just out of pocket. It's just a stupid shot. What the hell was that? Knights for OKC, right? One interesting thing, they won the turnover battle by 14 and still lost by 27 points. That just doesn't happen. This speaks to how bad their shooting was and how bad their defense was. Shea didn't play particularly well.

No one played particularly well. J. Dub didn't as well. But this is coming on the backdrop of them losing three times to San Antonio. You know, they have a curious loss to the Sons, which I think in the grand scheme of things wasn't a big deal, right? They were at the end of a road trip. Those are the hardest games to win in the league. And then also the game that they just has was the beginning of a homestand, which is also a

hard game. They're just in a weird schedule, right? I'll start with Roger here. We talked about why this team shouldn't go for the record of regular seasons, right? And I think we're starting to see that they're really not equipped to go to through a record like this, which is fine, right? I think they're going on the trajectory of maybe 60-something wins like they did last year. And I think when you look at 60-something wins, I think you were a part of a 60-something

win season. You have these ebbs and flows. You have the six-and-sixes, right? Then you go on a run. Then you go on here. What should we just be looking for as a consumer of basketball with this team? And what does this stretch say about them at this particular moment? Um, well, the stretch, the stretch says that they're not invincible, right? And, you know, that's a thing. You know, when, when, when teams are coming into your building and you seem invincible to them, um, you know, that's a huge advantage, you know, and so when, when teams are coming in thinking you have chinks in your armor and, you know, they can find a way through those into the, you know, into the soft spots that are going to really hurt you. That's a different ball game.

there was an era of invincibility around them for a while. So like this just suggests that they're not invincible. And, you know, they can't conduct themselves like they are. You know, as far as what they have going on, look, I said this when San Antonio beat him, what was it Christmas Day? And we were on here talking about, was it Christmas? Yeah. Right?

And we were talking about all the things that San Antonio did to him defensively and what, you know, San Antonio was able to do offensively. but I said then they got a bunch of wide open shots. They missed them. They were missing a lot of wide open shots in that game. And that's been a trend. Like they have not shot the ball consistently well. There's been a bit of a dip in what they do defensively.

I think those things correlate. Like, you know, you don't want them to, but I think organically and human nature, you know, suggest that those type of things kind of correlate more than coaches would want them to. And then they're trying to. Look, they've been injured. They've had major injuries. They've had a lot of fringe injuries.

They have a ton of depth. And, you know, when you're trying to reintegrate pieces in, they're chemistry issues sometimes. Their lineup issues, their combination issues that coaching staffs have to figure out. There's role definition within that. Like, guys got used to play in a certain way, handling a certain amount of the business as it relates to offense, moving and creating, and, you know, that role definition that was.

Well, when you introduce pieces back into the lineup and Jay Will is back and everybody's, he's going to naturally reassume his position in the hierarchy. So guys have to fit. Everyone from him down, not necessarily Shea, but everyone from him down has got to adjust. Minute-wise, role-wise. And so there's a lot going on for them in this little stretch of time. I do think, I say this a lot, good coaches figure out ways, good teams figure out ways to use things like this as something that could be very beneficial for them down the road.

right? We go through these troubles now. Yeah, there are ebbs and flows in seasons, just like there are in games. We got to ride this, figure out how to come out on the back end better, and then understand that we are not invincible, and we have to play certain ways to win games in this league so that we're buttoned up for what it really matters the most. We talked about this weeks ago when everybody was talking about, oh, are they going to break the record and everything else? And I said, I wasn't expecting it because usually, and I really respected the way they came out, right? When you win the championship and then you come out at just a record pace, it's such a testament to your professionalism and your commitment and how serious about the game you are. Like, no, we haven't proven anything.

That was last year. We're not going to let up. We're going to awesome. Great. Cool. But that's really freaking hard to sustain for 82 games for anybody. And especially when you've come off a championship because you played a couple more months. So what did I say?

There were three things that I thought could derail the record win pace, the 74 win pace. fatigue, injury, boredom. Injuries they've certainly had, right? Isaiah Hartenstein's missed the last 12 games. They're six and six over that span, although it's a little misleading. Like their record without Hartnstein overall, the season is fine. And when he's played in the last 12, they were still like one and four with him. So it's not about that, but they have had injuries.

They've had, as Rajah mentioned, some maybe just not chemistry issues like anything toxic, but just like reintegrating Jalen Williams. Other guys had stepped into bigger roles and now have to step back a little bit. You're reshuffling a little bit when Hartenstein's out. Chet Holmgren's playing more at the five, all this stuff. And then the boredom factor, I think, is just the biggest thing. And a little of fatigue, maybe. It's just hard to sustain that level of focus of intensity, night after night.

And we have officially hit the dog days because it's January. You start getting there late December. and at a certain point, especially the style they play. Like, think about why they're dominant. Like, yes, they have very good offensive players and She's an all-time great offensive player. But they're not, I said this,

like Zach looked back to me like I was, you know, on drugs a few weeks back when I said, I didn't see them in the same way as I saw, like, the Bulls dynasty that won the 72 win season or the Warriors who won 73 or they're, like, I don't think that the offensive talent is at that same level of overwhelming.

level, like it may get there because Jaylen Williams and Cheddar Young. But this team has built, their dominance is based on their defense, right? They just eat you alive. They lead the league still in deflections. They're going to make everything tough. And they're going to get out and they're going to get a lot of easy baskets off of runouts. And that's a really hard way to play for yourself. Like it makes it tough on your opponents.

But like sustaining that, that all out, we're just going to try to gobble up every single possession, every pass, every hand. off, that's tough. So I do think some level of fatigue, boredom injury has kind of crept in. And look, they're still on a 66 win pace. They're fifth in offense for the season, first in defense, but over the last 12, they've got the 22nd rated offense. And a lot of that's just three-point shooting drop-off.

Maybe that's a little fatigue. Maybe that's just, you know, the vagaries of a season. They're still second in defense over the last 12, but that's noteworthy because they were number one by a long shot in defense before. and I think they're now down to two over the last 12. So three-point shooting has been really rough over the last several weeks for them. I'm not worried. I think the one area of concern that I would look at as just like an ongoing thing is,

where is J-Dub? Because, you know, he's coming back from that hand surgery in the off-season. He's averaging 17 points a game. That's down four points a game from last season. His effective field goal percentage is 492, which is not great for anybody. and it's down from 537 last season, and it would be a career low. His two point percentage is down to 49.8.

That's down from 53.3 last year. His three point percentage is at 313. Grizzly. He was at 365 last season, and his free throw attempts per game are down by almost an attempt per game. So, like, J-dub is not himself yet. This is not to point the finger at him,

just saying, like, I think he's still kind of getting back to who he's supposed to be, and when he is, that solves a lot of issues. I'm glad you brought up J-dub. Howard, because he, I believe he is the key to all of this, at least in the interim, right? Because in the losses that they've had, particularly the instructive losses against San Antonio, he has not been good. You look at his shooting percentages.

I think he went like 5 and 16 in the first game. He hasn't shot over 50% against the Spurs. And those were the games that really kind of derailed their opening stretch. And I remember watching all three Spurs games and thinking, man, Shea's doing a lot right now. right like he needs a secondary option and the way their offense right now is set up jdub needs is the one that needs to um he needs to fill out those holes offensively that she can't right when the offense is humming it's she getting to his spots doing his little hickory dickory dot game and then jalen is kind of fixing those pieces um i equates jalen right now um and i'm only saying this because

this is his idol and this is the trajectory that he looks up to right i'm not saying to compare him as players necessarily. But he, I think, tracks as like 98, 99 Kobe, where he's trying to figure out his way within an offense and a championship structure. Yeah, he had that big game in the finals, but he's still coming into the fold of having to do that consistently throughout a season

where he is that bona fide number two scoring option. And when they play the San Antonio's the world, I'm only called the San Antonio because they're the team that consistently matches up the best with this particular team. he has to find his spots because what happens is you get a team that has a lot of length. They're going to gobble up Shea Gilgis Alexander and not only take away his shooting and driving lanes, but his passing lanes.

And when that happens, there's a lot of open shots there for J-dub to take, and he has to assert his will on that game. If that doesn't happen, you have a lot of weird stepbacks from Shea down the stretch that are not great shots, and you have him trying to figure out his offense, which is a lot of what happened last night when, you know, he's not getting to the free throw line, but he's shooting a lot of, like, fadeaways. He's not just, he's not shooting well. And this offense is only good at this point as good as when Shea is good.

And that's the first point. J.D.W. needs to step up. Shet needs to find his game and come along too, but Chet's not the number two option. The second thing that I would say that I've been seen from Oklahoma City is they're just going through the riga moreau that happens when one, you are an it team or, and two, when you're an it team that has won a championship, they're still getting congratulated from last year's accomplishments, right? I think about Shagiochus Alexander getting the Sports Illustrated award that he got, right? With that comes an extra flight to Vegas where you have to go to Vegas real quick,

then come back for a game. I don't know if he's done that yet, but that's on the horizon for him. I forgot when that event is, but that's going to happen. but that's just one example, right, where you're getting the star treatment, you're still trying to figure out your game, but you're getting all these other avenues of things that are pulling at you, right? Like, Raj always talks about, like, when Steve became like this generational, not only star, but like a celebrity, right,

where you're just getting pulled in so many different directions, but you still have to maintain the level of play that you're playing at, right? And I think they're kind of going through that adjustment as well, where, you know, they, I think I talked to, I'll shout him out my editor Isaac who was talking about like when you

when you get to the level of success that the Oklahoma City Thunder are getting to every loss is a is going to be on this podcast right every curious loss that you have is going to lead first take and sports center from an NBA person

like what's wrong with the thunder they're just going through a six and six stretch they're fine to us but like to the bigger basketball community they're going to have to get used to every time they do something bad or good, it's going to have an outsized attention on them. And I think that they're adjusting to that right now. And I think that that's what's kind of illustrating what's going on right now during this run.

SI Sportsperson of the year is in fact today, January 6th. So in theory, Shea is in Vegas for that today. Yeah. And he's supposed to go back. I think he's, from what I remember, he's probably going to go back tonight. He's going to go to Vegas today. and go back tonight. I don't know when he's going to get home,

maybe like two or three in the morning. And I know that's that. Rajah, I know. You did that and succeeded. We know. We know that you're not, you're not, Roger's for the record,

had one of the same games after one of these types of events hanging out with Stevie Nash and it does not suffer any fools of the hoax. No, not my best game, but we, I mean, you figure out a way to win the game

because, I mean, you know what you did the night before, so like, you figure out, yeah. I just want to, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just want to know, which room, uh, Raj's Bobcats jersey is framed and hanging in.

I think it's a way. I think it's a guy. I don't. I might know. I don't have a Bobcatch jersey. Ah. Ah. No. No. No. Collectors item. They don't exist anymore. If you did, I would take it from your house and put it up, have you sign it and have put it up back here. I think the Bobcats, the weirdly, the Bobcats actually sent me like a, like an alumni gift. I mean, a year or so ago. I thought that that was pretty cool because I didn't even, I didn't even think. Um, um, Well, the Hornets that were the, yeah, I don't know who the... I don't know, dude. I got something from Charlotte.

Which logo was on it? Yeah, what's logo was on it? Yeah, I don't remember. It came from Charlotte. So it might have been Hornets. It might have just said Charlotte. Charlotte basketball team. Okay.

But I don't even know that they claimed, you know, who knew? Anyway, Howard, as you were saying, as you were saying, before we got derailed here. No, that's it, man. I just needed to know where the Bobcats jersey was. No, no, no, no. Yeah, but, you know, he said that he said it was the S-I man of the year was today. But I would, yeah, go ahead. Go.

That's all I got. Shea is going to have to, you know, go accept an award, blah, blah, blah. And they play Utah tomorrow. Yeah, I mean, I don't know that how much of that stuff seeps in, but like, these guys are all human, right? It's just human to, like, feel a little bit accomplished and be, like, resting on your laurels, all that stuff. So I think all of it creeps in at a certain point And then you refocus You get your shit together and you're fine

I haven't watched the debate shows today Or listen to elsewhere I don't know if anyone's going into like You know like five alarm fire mode Of like thunder need to like fire people Trade for people yet but like You're not here but I took a peek at the place That you don't go anymore on social media

And they were frying they were frying Of course they were That place is frying everyone at all times including our brain cells. Exactly. No, look, I just, the Jay Will of it all, you made a good point, Logan, about what that does to SGA's ability,

you know, to facilitate and find people that score. It's a good point. I'd also use the point of, you know, multiple times in last year's playoffs. It wasn't even about SGA and his facilitation to a player like Jay Will. Jay Will was taking possessions off of SGA's plate, right?

Like he was taking primary playmaking responsibility in large chunks at times. And to the point that Howard made about fatigue, that becomes really important. Because if you don't have anything that keeps the game plan defensively honest, meaning, you know, we can't shade it all to SGA because, you know, the other guys will just only spot shoot or shoot spoon fed shots. You got to have something that keeps it honest. And he was doing that in a major way. So getting back to being able to do that consistently is going to be critical for them for

long-term success, you know? And the thing is with their roster, right? They have a lot of depth, but they don't have a lot of like consistent playmakers, right? They have like guys that can playmate, but not over like a long stretch, right? J-dub can do that. And that's kind of what they need to do. I don't want to belay when it's six and six I think they'll be fine

All right You guys ready for mailbag? You guys any more points on OKCC? You got anything else? Good to go. Melbag it up. Cliffy booted out the two, Cartier, Cliff in the building

What's hadn't? Fellas, fellas, fellas was good. Raj was good, man, looking crispy in that 4K, my brother, how you're going to play. A little too bright for your boy, Cliff, a little too bright. This light is bright as hell, dog.

Are you hot right now? I'm hot as hell over here. This shit is unnerving, bro. Oh, man. Y'all looking good at that 4K, man, Gary enough for the Netflix. Anyways, let's get right to it. This is actually from Blue Sky.

This is from Howard Beck. He had an interesting debate here with Lundabee Johnson from Blue Sky. This is what Lundabee Johnson said. You said, good morning. Gun to your head to win a title this season. How many teams would get better trading their one for Jalen Brown? Start of the season, goal to win a title,

110 games, and everything factors matters. I've only got Denver letting it go. to VM. Voicemail. And Oak. Voicemail. And OKC, Minnesota as the only team's hanging it up. Howard replies, if the exercise is strictly about best chance to win this season and not

about long-term roster building, et cetera, I say the numbers around 1517. Lundy responds. Want to run that back? I think he's top five and not five. If you're trying to win this season, Howard Beck says, stay tuned. So Howard explained the exercise for Logan and Roger here? So, by the way, we're making a very, very rare exception here. Because every time somebody asks a question on blue sky, when I post about the mailbag, I said, I'm sorry, Real Onesmailbagg, Gmail.com.

Real onesmailbag, Gmail.com. Real ones mailbag, Gmail.com. But on this one, I'm letting it go. Because Jalen Brown's been awesome. We haven't talked about them enough. And the Celtics are now in second in the east. And Jalen's putting up career highs, not across the board, but in a lot of places. He's been awesome.

The Celtics have been awesome. So, guys, I think I was. too hasty in my initial response to London. I said 15 to 17. I was just walking to the gym that day, tweeting back as I'm walking like, ah, you know, 15 to 17. I didn't really go through it. But yesterday I went through it. So I've got it, I've got it all broken down here. Let's see how you guys feel. I'm going to say there are a bunch of teams that are an easy yes. And the exercise is this. It's trading Jaylon Brown for your team's number one guy. Tell me if you disagree. create anything or we can just like just put these off to the side. Yes, the Pacers are trading

them Siakum at the moment or if it were Halliburton still for Jalen Brown. I think that's an easy yes. But especially under the circumstances, Seacom is their best player. Automatic yes. Pelicans, Zion, Heartbeat, trade him for Jalen, Kings, Sabonis, hurt, but still their best player, easy one. Wizards, C.J. McCollum? Sir? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, they're trying to trade for, they're trying to trade for Troy Young to be their number one. I mean, they would tag Jaylen Brown. We can stipulate the wizards. We can stipulate the nets. Michael Porter Jr. is their best player probably.

Hornets. I don't know if it's Lamello, Concanipple, Brandon Miller. I'm trading any of them for Jalen Brown. Easy. Marketing for Jalen, easy. Blazers. Avdia or Sharp, whoever, yes. Bulls, whoever it is, yes. Grizzlies, John Morant.

Yes, easy. Heat. Norm Powell, bam out of bio. Yeah, painful if it's bam, but yes, I'm trading them for Jalen Brown right now. So that's 11 teams that already... Wait, wait, wait. Wait, no, wait. Roger.

I said that's not unimpeachable. Roger Brown. I said, I said, no, no, I said not painful. Not painful. Oh, okay. Okay. All right, all right.

So there's 11 teams that are definitely a yes. And then I've got a bunch of teams that are like, they're pausing first, but I still think they're saying yes. You tell me if you agree or disagree. Hawks got to give up Jalen Johnson for Jalen Brown. I say yes. Yeah. Mavs got to give up Cooper Flagger, Anthony Davis, whichever you want to do. I still say yes.

Because remember, the goal of this is, or the parameters that London said is, this season. This year. This year. Yeah. The world ends on July 1st. So for the teams that can't win a title,

I think it's maximize your wins. So you're saying that the Celtics so that Nico Harris is going to try to look into the Celtics. You wanted to win now. Let's not go down. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. All right. So again, if it's just for this season

and the goal is to like maximize this season, Mavericks do it. Clippers, Coire Hardin, again, pausing, but I think saying yes. No, there's no pause. I need to be no pause. Fine. I'm trying to be respectful. Cavs, Donovan Mitchell, Evan Moe, whoever is.

Yes. By. Raptors, Scotty Barnes, Brandon Ingram. Bye. Yes. Goodbye. Franz Wagner, Palo Ban Carroll. Yeah. Pistons, Cade Cunningham.

I think it's pause, but yes. Sorry, Cliff. He's tough. Because Jalen Brown's also bringing the defense. Like I said, pausing, but yes. Sixers, Tyrese Maxi, pause, but yes. Yes. So that was eight more teams.

We've gotten to- Cain's tougher for me. Cain's tough, way tougher than Maxi. Like, way tougher than Maxie. Like, way, they're going to do it. Here, but maybe, but let me just, again, I'm fresh off of Cade last night, dog, chill. Hold up.

Fair, fair, fair. I'm fresh off a Cade last night. So that he has a, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go. Go, go Russia. Go, Russia. No, I'm just going to say. that he's really fucking good. Also, Cade fits in Detroit in a way that I'm not sure Jalen Brown would.

Like, he's really good. Right, and that's going to get me to the next piece of this list. So, but we have, just for the record, we have all agreed, the three of us, 19 teams we've already said absolutely would give up their number one player for Jalen Brown for this season. Yeah. I think there are four quick nose before we get to the ones where there are some tough calls. I think there are only four that absolutely would not.

do it. The bucks are not trading Janus for him. Forget the Janus situation contractually and all the other stuff and Janus being, you know, you know, not happy with things there. I don't think in a normal situation that the bucks are giving up Janus for Jalen Brown for this season. I say no. I think Yokic is a no, Wemby's a no, Shay is a no. Do we agree that those four? Absolutely. Yes. All right. So we've got 19 yeses and four nos, which leaves us with these six teams. Minnesota. Would you rather take your chances with your guy or flip him for Jalen? Number one, Warriors, Steph Curry.

I am going to, I'm going to bow out of this one because I need to live here. No, I know, Steph. Steph, I mean, the way they play. Also, step, too, but I'm also saying you're an asshole for this. Yeah, this is a tough one. But I'm going to throw, I'm going to throw in there just because of stylistically what they do. and how they're constructed to have to play, that's Steph, that's Steph.

And I'm going to say navigating that current locker room, I don't think Jaila can do that. I do not think he could navigate their locker room and make it successful. I had the Warriors down as a no because of everything that Steph means to them. There's going to be a few cases, I think, where the culture of your team, the identity, and or, as Roger points out, the way you're structured,

it just doesn't make sense. Even if Jalen Brown is technically an upgrade of sorts because of the defense, the heart and soul and everything of that team is, Steph, so you're not doing it. So that's three nose. But yeah, it's that, though. But, like, I do think, like, if we were going to make the exercise, like,

taking that away, just player for player, I just, in same rosters, I just don't think that Jalen has it in him to both be successful and bring that group along with him. Yeah. So it's a lot of things. So, all right, so we're all a no on the Warriors. Next up, Sons with Devin Booker. I say yes, they do it. Yes.

Yes. Okay. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. The reason why I don't know is because, I mean, Devin Booker's doing pretty good with this roster in a way that I just didn't, like, expect. And I just haven't.

My thing with Jaylen is, like, he's a good leader for that Celtics team, but he hasn't had direct conflict, right? And I'm just, I'm really scared to see, like, how he has to figure out the dynamics of, like, a guy like Dylan Brooks. Like, is he going to? And by all account. Dylan Brooks is a great locker room guy. Like say what you want to say about what he does into the opposing team is a great locker room guy.

But I just haven't seen Jalen deal with personalities. He is the kind of personality in his locker room, but I haven't seen him kind of like go toe to toe with someone else. And that's what gives me pause with him in the Warriors. I'm not sure how he's going to deal with personalities in that group. And the way like Devin Booker has done that. And he's honestly been successful with that. Devin Booker's been great. He's been amazing.

He's been great. I don't know. I'm going to say I don't know. I'm not going to say yes or no. I'm going to say I don't know. All right. Asian, I both said we trade him for Jalen Brown right now.

Logan is pedging. I don't know. You're good. I don't need that. Minnesota Timberwolves. Anthony Edwards. I say yes. Flip him for Jalen Brown.

I say no. I say no. The reason why I say no is we're forgetting what the hell Anthony Edwards has done by like in the role that he has. He's brought him to the conference finals, dog. Like, in a vaunted Western Conference, like, we'll see what Jalen is about to do. But we're kind of, in this argument, we're kind of putting the cart in front of the horse here where we're like, oh, yeah, Jalen will take him to the Western Conference by, Western Conference Finals by himself.

And we don't even know what the end of this season is. He's had a great stretch. I'm going to say he deserves everything he's going through right now. But Ann has already done this. And he has, has, has, Has Jalen beaten Joker with that roster? All fair, that's why I put this in the tough calls category, but I mean, yes. Yeah, that's a no. No, I'm legitimately really torn on this one. This one's a tough one. I think I'm going to lean.

This is going to be like a 55-45. I'm going to say no. Okay. A couple more. Rockets. I don't know if we're talking about Shengun or Durant or Aman Thompson. I think it's Kevin Durant, frankly, and dude just won another game

before the last night. So are you trading Durant for Jalen Brown? Yes. Logan's a yes. No. I typed yes last night or yesterday afternoon before the game last night

and I'm going to be prisoner of the moment and flip to a note. He was awesome last night though. This is what I'm saying, no. This is wide stuff, right? And I'm like, I mean, he already mad at me, so whatever. Like, what else is he going to do?

Like, what is he going to do? not talk to me. He's already been doing that. We chat about you briefly last week, Logan. He just kind of smiled. You're good. Okay. All right. Anyways. What else is he going to say? Anyway, so my thing is this, and this is why it's tough, because Kevin Durant is freaking awesome. He's freaking, let me just get that out of the way. He's freaking awesome, right? But there's the injuries. This is why I'm going back and forth. I don't even, I'm going couch it. Man, get to the point, man. God damn. Shut the hell up. But the thing is, You could make the point.

Oh, him and it hard. Shut the hell up. Shut the hell up. Go make this pod longer. It is. We've got one more question. The thing with Katie is, is the injury concerns. There's also the age, right?

We don't know how long he is going to, like, we don't know what the rest of the season like kind of entails for him from a health standpoint, right? Jalen has been healthy. He has been getting these numbers. And, like, you're basically, if you were to do that, you'd be resetting to the, basically last year's version of the team

and you're swapping out Jalen Green for Jalen Brown and quite frankly that's pretty damn good right? Yeah, mine is Dylan Brooks. Mine is Dylan Brooks. Mine is Dylan Brooks. But like you're also and like there was some

whispers out there, not necessarily for me. I didn't hear that but I had read about this like you know, this would be a reunion with M.A. Udoca and he like Jalen loves M.A. Udoca like was defending him after everything had happened would, you know, still wanted to play for him. like after the things happened and was disappointed that he got cut as a as a result of everything

that happened. So like that would be something. Like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Listen, in this exercise, the case for trading Durant for Jaylon Brown is like, you're accounting for everything, as London said in his tweet to me. You're accounting for everything. And that could include age and injury concerns, right? So if you think Jaylen Brown's got a better chance of making it to April, May, June than KD does, like that would be fair. All right, but we got two nose on the rockets then and only one. yes. I think these last two are the two hardest of this entire exercise. The Knicks with Jalen Brunson, like Jalen Brown brings more because of the defensive side of things and defense and

size and everything else. But when we start factoring in, again, like we did with Steph, culture and fit and identity of the team and the straw that stirs the drink and all that, like the Knicks would have a really hard time. Like we could make the case on all kinds of stats and everything else to make this maybe an easy call for Jalen Brown. But I think when you take into account everything and how much they're about Jalen Brunson, I think this is actually really hard. I actually need to know on this one. I'm sorry, Logan.

I go no off a few of the things you said. Play style is critical to this one. Like what they have to do within what they do to be successful and to close games. And yeah, I say, I say no. But it's, I mean, if you gave me Apple's Apple's Apple. Apple's like what player do you want? But like in that situation, I'm going no with you, Howard.

The only way you say yes, and I say no, but the only way you say yes and you convince yourself of it is like just a liability that Jalen Brunson is on defense, right? And like they, whenever you have Jalen Brunson on the floor with Kat,

it's basically like you're playing three on five defensively. And like if you can, if you traded for Jalen Brown, that's not going to be a problem. And he could get you the scoring punch that Jalen, that, Brunson can, that's the only way you do it. But I think culturally, I think just the way that team is built, you can't really do that

deal. Also, if you trade, bro, if you traded Jalen Brunson straight up right now for Jalen Brown, I think New York, New York would not like that too much, right? If you trade them to Boston, you traded Bronson to Boston? Oh, my God. It would not, it would not end well. And again, the exercise was taking into account to everything. So, which thing was one.

Ben, Ben, relax. It's not real. It's not happening. text after this fucking pod. Like, yo, why would you do that? No, relax, Ben, relax. I don't, I don't know, I don't know if Ben's listening to much NBA podcasting today with his Knicks on a four-game losing streak.

I don't know about that. I'm just going to say every time, I think, I don't think Ben is tapped in, but every time we talk about the Knicks, I get a text or we get a text in the chat, like, like the podcast. Ben, just ping us to let us know you're still okay, all right? Like, I know it's a tough time. Ben might have severed his, like, you know, rest of his, his personality from the Knicks side of it right now

and just ignoring the Knicks Inni at this point. It's a fair point. We are down to the Lakers and Luca Donchich. Again, like, Luca's freaking Luca, man. He's a perennial MVP candidate. Most years, we call him one of the top two to three players in the NBA. Jalen Brown is now knocking on the door of the MVP conversation for the first time. I know Jailen brings all the defense that Luca does not,

it's this a really tough one i leaned no on this one also even though intellectually there's a lot to say the other direction i don't know man look i'm gonna say a ton of stuff i'll start it off i'll start off and it's a very simple answer and it's i'm gonna say no and it's yeah and it's for all the things that i think you're alluding to howard yeah it's not just like the deep it's not just luca being Luca and how great he is as a basketball player. The Lakers require a certain type of player to be the face of their franchise, and I don't believe that Jalen fits that mold. I do.

I know that's been the story. No, but listen to me, it's more than just the player. It's the star power for the Lakers, bro, and it's vanity, and it's what you can do to market, and it's like it's a certain type of player. And I think, like, from a basketball standpoint, sure. But, like, are you going to be able to sell that to the Lakers? Lakers fan base, which is what they, at least what they is what they've cared about. You have to be historically great, but you also have to be historically, like, famous, too.

Like, Kareem, Magic, Wilts, all you have to be in that bang. And by name recognition, Luca is at least in that vein. He's not there on a championship level, but he is there in that vein in terms of first-name personalities that you talk. Kobe, Shaq, you need, like, a level of celebrity and game to be able to do that. And I just don't think Jalen fits the mold of what that archetype is. If that's what, if it's, yeah, if we're going to go, you could speak to that way more than I can. But, and I guess the exercise was all things considered. So that I'd have to take some of that into account.

Like you're probably right there. Very, very tough on the basketball side of things. Very, very, very tough. I probably say yes on the basketball side of things. Because you're trying to win a championship. this season. This year. This year.

Yeah. This year. With Austin Reeves and LeBron and the rest of that cast give you a better chance this year, Raja? Yeah. Yeah. They do. Yeah.

I think so. I do think so. Just purely basketball now. But yeah. See, I'm of the belief that to some degree, Logan, him pairing with Jason Tatum has, has, you know, kind of forwarded his ability to become a star. that he might have ordinarily been on his own team trying to win championships,

and that's okay. Like, that's a sacrifice you make to win championships and stuff like that. But Jalen Brown's been trying to tell you that he's a star. Like, if nobody was listening, he was yelling it. And now you're kind of getting to see it, you know, in a way. So, yeah, I would say yes. Now, it's not an easy one, but I'd say yes for this year.

He is now firmly in the MVP conversation. Like the straw poll, the first ESPN straw poll that Tim Bontam did was mid-December, and Jalen Brown got, I think, I think he got like an 11 ballots out of the maybe 100 or whatever. So, like, he got like a couple of fourths and a bunch of fifths. And I think if you did that again right now, considering Yokic may be eliminated by the 65 game rule, and Wembe might get eliminated, and Yonis might get eliminated, and because of everything that Jalen Brown's doing as well, it's not just by default by any stretch. I think if you redid the straw poll today, I think, first of all, Jailen was.

was not on my straw poll that I texted back to Bon Temps a month ago. He would be today. Like he's legitimately in all of this. And I think he's been all NBA before, I think, third team. So like, some of this isn't new. But when you have that much more responsibility and you're playing to this level and lifting up your team and putting them in a place that nobody, nobody, nobody expected this. They're in second place in the east on January 6th with no Jason Tatum, no Porzengis or Horford or Drew Holiday. Like, it's really incredible what they're doing. So props to London for the great question. This was actually a fun exercise. One last thing.

One last thing. I was going to give it a total here. Okay. So 15 to 17, I said it was probably too low by me. But we've just gone through this and we've still only gotten to like 21. We still have like nine nose. So, like, there's still a third of the league that would say no to the straight-up trade our best player for Jalen Brown right now. So for whatever that's worth, London, you may disagree with the results, but that was interesting.

I just want to say, shout out to, we got one more question for you specifically, Roger. But I just want to say, like, it's really dope to see this from Jalen, bro, because to your point, Roger, and I have a little, like, just intimate knowledge with this just from, like, you know, interviewing him a couple years ago. there was always like an underbelly from him of like, I can beat a guy. And I am sacrificing my game for Jason Tatum. Now, like, did he go about it the greatest way behind the scenes? Not necessarily, but he was always really good with being alongside Jason Tatum and played his role in the way that he needed to. And I'm really happy to see him kind of spread his rings and show everybody what he's been telling everybody behind the scenes. he's living up to his work.

So that's some ruin shit. We have one more question, though, for you specifically, Roger. And we've been holding off for the last few weeks. So Cliff, we have Roger here. We've corralled him. We're all here together. No time like the present. This question was sent in over two weeks ago.

I'm Harry Liggins. This is last year, Raj, last end of last year. He said, we have seen the AIS stepover, Tailu highlight for over 24 years now. And I don't think I ever noticed until today that it was Roger who passed the ball to him prior to the shot stepover. I don't know if I ever heard his recollection of that play before. Did it register in that moment? What was it like the next few days, especially with the six is taking at surprise leading the finals?

And the play blowing up all over the highlight shows. Did you have any idea that it would still be such a big deal almost 25 years later? Yeah, it's a good question. The answer is no. didn't notice it in game. Did see it obviously afterwards, but had no idea it was going to register on the NBA all-time meter the way it does.

What was it like after beating them? I mean, we all obviously thought that we were going to just walk away with that championship. I mean, we thought it was ours after stealing game one there. It was a pretty cool experience for me haven't only been in the NBA, maybe a couple months at that point. Still one of the coolest moments in my NBA career walking off a Staples center floor

with a game one win in the finals, haven't been like in the CBA two months before that. I just had no idea, though. I wanted, was that the summer? No, that wasn't the summer that, uh, no, but I had no idea. People often will show me like, I had a weird left-handed scoop shot, like, like over a shack um and i had no fucking idea what i was doing i had no idea what was going on in that game the series in general i if you watch me on most plays i'm just like uh everybody else is kind of where they're supposed to be when pick and roll is happening right like because they know hey space

space and i'm the one idiot that's just running around like trying to set go screens for people they're like you get to get out of here i just had no idea what was going on it was fight or flight um it was really cool to be a part of yeah but no, I had no idea. Can you take us through that play, please? Like, what were you thinking in that vein where you like, I need to get the ball to Iverson? Like, what are you thinking in that play?

You're like, fuck, three months ago, I was like, what do you think? Can you take us through that play? What happened? My thought process was really fucking simple. Hey, if he gives it to you and you're open, shoot it. If you get it and you ain't open, give it back to him.

What do you mean? Doesn't get much easier than that. Hey, if you're open. and he gave it to you shoot it. That's some simple 2001 math right there. Bro, I'm looking at these highlights. Hold on, bro. I'm looking at these highlights.

You have fucking Robert Ori on you right here. And you threw some... The left, that's the lefty scoop? That's the leaptie scoop is icy, dog. You got the... Cold-blooded. Like, you got the taper going. I'm trying to find this play right now.

I'm sorry, Victoria, you're going to be mad. Okay, here we go. No, it's okay. Where I was free, though, the steel. You're taking a ball up the court. Wait. You're taking the ball up to court right here. Eric Snow was, like, looking your way.

You have Oreo on you. I don't know if they're trying to hide Oreo on you or something. And take it from there. Like, you're just like, okay, average is in the post and he has Tyron Louvano. That's the scoop. That's the scoop. No, no, that's not the scoop.

That's the over, that's the step over. I don't remember any of that, bro. I don't remember. I don't, none of that. I don't remember any of that. No, no. I mean, I've seen clips, but I've never rewatched the game. Forrest Gump motherfucker was all in through this game.

And every time I've asked him about this game, he's giving me nothing. There's another play where Kobe and Iverson are talking, right? And they're talking about an iconic play. And Raja Bell's in the back like, oh, and we got a similar question a few years ago about like, you were the only one that could know what Kobe and Iverson are yelling about. And Raj's like, I don't even remember, bro. And I'm like, first of all, like, but what the, I don't even fuck what Alan Iverson and Kobe Bryant are talking about?

Bro, I'm trying to make a fucking roster next year. Yeah, what are you talking about? Like, I got a job to do. This man's about to get the ball and try to get his 50th point. I ain't worried about what them two are talking about. Okay. All right, fine, shit. Real quick, because I, Cliff, did you mention this was from Harry Liggins.

I want to shout him out because he's been really, okay, he's been really patient with this. Harry, thank you for this because I went back and I watched like the last five minutes or whatever. I was at that game. But, like, dude, like Raja, I don't remember shit from 24, 25 years ago. I covered that series, obviously, Laker Beat Redder at the time. But I went back because I wanted to see, like, how did the Lakers let this one get away? They were up 99-94 in OT. That's when Raja hits this really awkward, like six-footer, left-hand scoop shot.

Cash. It's nice, though. Like, it's kind of like, what the hell was that? But like, wow, that was like, I'm like, Shax, step up. You have a block right there. Yeah, he could have volleyball that. Yeah. That was nice and fluky.

So Lakers are up by five. Raja hits that shot. Now it's down to three. Iverson makes a couple of free throws. Iverson hits a three from a pass from Aaron McKee. Now they're up 101. 99. Then Iverson hits the shot over Tailu to make it 103.99.

Kobe scores to cut it to two points. And then Eric Snow off a pass from. Roger Bell. Hits a 17 footer to make it 105. Did you see that 17 footer? That was a bullshit seven footer. I got to go where you're watching, man. Maybe I'll do that.

Maybe I'll do that with the kids. bullshit 17-footer. I say that with all due respect. Eric Snow was Cass from mid-range. But he was like a weird, like, ugh. It was crazy. Can I just also, by the way, since this is on, this always starts as the step over.

And I feel like as somebody who has talked to Tai Lu about this and written about it, I got to just make the real quick plug for Tai Lu here. Tylo did not get crossed over. Everybody thinks, oh, he showed him up, he crossed him over. And Tyloo fell out. No, no. Tylo was in front of him. He lunged to contest the shot.

he lands and turns and stepped on Iverson's foot. Like if you watch the correct angle, you'll see he stepped on Iverson's foot and then fell. By the way, by the way, by the way, by the way, Tailu played great defense in that series. He played great defense in that series. Hold on, I got it too. This is my bag too.

I know it too. He also played great defense in that game because him being inserted into that game changed the whole game and had the Lakers coming back because the Sixers were up a lot during that game. and Tyloo comes in and kind of neutralized AI for the most part going in over and then going in overtime and then Iverson got that shot. So I just want to give credit.

Just add on to that and give credit to Tyloo. Thank you, Logan. And two things to elaborate on that. One is Iverson went 18 for 41 in that game, which is a pretty good percentage for, no, 18 for 41 is good for him. No, 40. 41's crazy. It was one for five in the fourth, but he was two for three in OT. What's rarely mentioned, of course, when people talk about the step over one, of course, that's the only game that Rajabell Sixers won.

The Lakers then reel off the next four in a row. But also, it was like the last real meaningful highlight for Iverson of that series. He went 48 for 121 over the next four games, and Lou is on him throughout. The other thing, just on Ty Lou's behalf, or just it's a really interesting and important footnote, because Tyloo himself said, this was a quote he gave me years ago, Iverson making it to the finals saved my career. Without Iverson, there probably wouldn't be me. That was Tailu about 10 years ago when we talked about this. It was because Iverson was, or Lou was out of the rotation.

And back then, you had your, you got a playoff roster, which you had to set on the eve of the playoffs. And if you didn't make the playoff roster, it meant you were done. You could not play the entire postseason. And Lou was on the bubble. He was behind J.R. Ryder. He was behind Mike Penberthie, this three-point specialist, who's now been a shooting coach in and around the NBA.

So Lou was not guaranteed to make it. When Phil Jackson announced that Ty Lou made, because they had a team meeting where you announced the playoff roster, he announces Lou's name and like a cheers go up because everybody freaking loved Tai Liu. And it was no reflection on anybody else who didn't make the postseason roster, but the guys loved Tai Liu. And so there was like this cheer that went up.

And they did it specifically because when they were looking at the Eastern Conference and expecting to get back to the finals, if they were going to meet up, with Iverson, Lou was the one guy they had. Like, Brian Shaw, Ron Harper, all these guys, like, all good veteran dudes, but nobody who was quick enough. So, Tailu is on the playoff roster specifically because they expected to meet Iverson at some point in the finals or thought they might.

And as Tailu said, that saves his career. The Lakers don't resign him that summer, but the Wizards pick him up, give him a two-year deal. And that, you know, the rest is history, man. So, yeah. Last thing on that, Roger, got to go. Tailu was the scout, the Lakers scout. the Lakers Scout, he was Alan Iverson and the Lakers scout

during going into that series. War the armband. And wore the armband. In practices. And had to birds, which is awesome. Anyways, what else is awesome is this episode? That's been another edition of real ones in 4K. We ain't planning around with you motherfuckers in 2026.

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