The Ringer NBA Show - Transitioning to the Broadcast Booth, Working Out With Wemby, and When’s the Right Time to Retire With Jamal Crawford | Real Ones

Episode Date: January 3, 2025

Howard and Raja are joined by three-time Sixth Man of the Year Jamal Crawford. They start by talking about his transition from basketball to being in media and the differences between working in studio and on the broadcast (14:57). Then they talk about Jamal’s workouts with Victor Wembanyama over the summer and what that was like (23:02). Then they wrap up with their thoughts on Jimmy Butler officially wanting out of Miami (33:23), how good the Knicks are (46:59), and Jamal and Raja talk about when they knew it was time to retire (57:35). Hosts: Howard Beck and Raja Bell Guest: Jamal Crawford Producer: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name's Matt Bellany. I'm founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. And with my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week, we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight. Which streamer is on the brink of collapse? And which executive is on the hot seat? Disney, Netflix, who's up, down, and who will never eat lunch in this town again?

Follow the town on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. What up? It's the real ones. Power Beck Senior Writer at The Ringer. Here with my guy, Rajabelle, and a very, very special guest. He is a three-time, six-man of the year. Currently, a game analyst with the MSG network calling Nix Games. One of my favorite people I've ever covered. And, and he once dropped 50 points.

on Raja Bell. No, I did not. That was late at it. Jamal Crawford. Jamal, why did you have to do a Raja like that back in 2008? Oh, my God. That was not on the card that that was coming next when the whole freeze happened. But no, it had nothing to do with Raja.

Actually, he's one of the best defenders I ever played against by far, by none. I play so bad the night before. If you go back and look, it was against Atlanta. And I was like three for 15, three for 17. And I remember the next day, Don Nelson was like, yo, just, you know, get your rest. Everybody get to arrest me at the gym. And that's what happened. Had nothing to do.

If I knew I was actually playing Roger and I was like, mistly into it, that had been a 10 point night. So don't do that, beg. Do not do that. Hey, that's very kind. I appreciate all of that. But I was, not Golden State. I was in Charlotte at the time. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that 50 ball. Yeah, yeah, he was unconscious. And I caught my fair share of those. Don't worry about that.

And I remember a hard foul you took, though. I definitely remember a hard foul late. That was a Roger staple, like late in the game. He's on hard value and look at you crazy. Like, what you're thinking out here? So that happened late in the game. That was that Jerry Sloan, man. Jerry Sloan was like, look, if you can't stop him,

at least fuck him up. Like, make him get up. Like he used to tell us, make him get up and shoot the free throws. I'm like, all right, cool. Yeah, that's an old school. Oh, my God. How bad was that bruised, Jamal? Do you walk away just, like, muttering, like, fuck, Roger?

Or what, like, what have? See, he wanted to make eye contact with me after he did it. I just looked away when he did and it went to the free throw line. So I couldn't, I couldn't engage with him right there. Hey, all jokes aside, Howard, like, they were, and I mean, like, you know, like, we're doing our back and forth thing. But there are a few dudes that when you played could get in the space of, like, unconsciousness scoring the ball where, like, we talk about this a lot on the pot.

It really doesn't matter what you do. you could do everything right. And they're just in this flow of shot making and whatnot where it's just going to be what they wanted to be that night. Jamal would fall into that category for sure. And I'm not just saying that. Like, no, I would fall into the category. Like, look, if a coach showed you the film next day, you'd be like, I give myself an A on that.

And then my fuck is he's still making it. Yeah, he's still. I mean, I got to watch a bunch of those up close because I covered Jamal when he was with the Knicks for whatever, like four or five years, Jamal. Yeah, yeah, almost. So I saw some stuff. I saw some highlights. That game, by the way, for the listeners,

that was December 20, 2008 Warriors at Charlotte Bobcats. Man, it's so weird to see that still. Warriors won that 1-110 to 103. Jamal went 14 for 26 from the field, five of eight on threes. But Raja, you had 21 that night. You went seven for 12 and five of seven on threes. I appreciate it.

That was one of the nights that I talk about a lot, Howard, where they probably needed me to be like the primary score to win a game. And it's just, that just was not. It's a lot harder than people making out to be. Your starting lineup that night in Charlotte, Raymond Felton, Gerald Wallace, Emeka Okifor, and your boy Boris Dio. Raja, I found a quote from the Charlotte Observer the next day. Roger says, quote, our pick and roll defense left a little bit to be desired.

See, all the things I remember, I do not remember that part right there. Jamal's quote that day was, I feel like I'm pretty much getting any shot I want. I let people off the hook by settling for jump shots. So I guess you were getting in the teeth there a lot, so you didn't have to settle. The rudest part of this, other than me bringing this up and making it sound like Jamal just destroyed Rajah in the first place, the rootest part of this? The rootest part of this is actually Gerald Wallace. You know what Gerald Wallace said after this, Jamal?

No, I do not. He said, basically, you got a guy out there with his confidence as high as the sky, and he's only playing one end, Wallace said of Crawford. He's only playing offense. He was lying, though. He was not lying. He was not lying. He was not lying.

My offense was my defense, so he was not lying. I did you, Wallace's that. And it became teammates in Portland. That's why he didn't talk to me too much. He only thought I was playing. He got a healthy serving at that 50 bucks. I did find this, thanks to Stathead. basketball reference, which is really handy at times like this when we bring on other former players

and I can make Raja squirm with all these head-to-head stats. Raja, you've actually got the advantage here in career record. You guys played each other 16 times over the course of your career. 11 and 5, I bet. He won 11 of them. Very close. 10 and 6. We didn't think you talk too much.

Yeah, they were a juggernaut. Like they were nice. Utah is an ugly place to be. play. You guys make it. No, it is. Yeah. Yeah. As an opposing, like, I went in there too when I was not on that team. That's an ugly building. I don't mean ugly in terms of like anything aesthetically. I mean just a tough place to play when you're a routine. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Did you guys ever scrap the two of you in those 16 matches? Like anything, like I assume you guard each other a lot. But was there any, any moments other than Jamal's 50?

For me, yeah, for me, it wasn't any moments. I just remember. certain things. I do remember this. It was in the garden. It was one of my first years in the garden. And I did a crossover, like a baby crossover. And Raja kind of, he thought the he was coming. And I made a point. I clearly made it fun. I'm like, I'm not doing that move again to the fourth quarter because I think I can get it when I need it. It was a close game. And I had, I did the move late and it helped us like help me clinch a shot. But I was collecting data because he was so good. He was one of those guys that kept you in thought. The one thing I hated on offense was to be in thought.

I just wanted to flow. I didn't want to overthink it. Him, Tony Allen, Bruce Bowen to a lesser degree, because he knew where his help was and his support was, and I kind of figured that out. Those two, Raja, Tony Allen, they kept you in thought on offense. And I hated being in that place. I didn't want to be in that place.

And they did a really good job. How did Raja do that? Because you can play defense. Like you can have, you know, the athletic ability. you can move, you could be tough, but he had a certain mentality. Like, he took such pride in it, that getting a stop was like,

and he was physical, and he was there every play. He didn't get bothered or discouraged if he scored a shot out. We've seen the backchols with him and Kobe. He'd seen the, like, he had no back down. I was always looking for any piece of fear I could get. He never showed me that.

I'm like, damn, it just means it's going to be a long night. Even if I make these tough ones, he's going to be there all night long. Yeah, that's interesting. I appreciate it again, bro. Like, you guys are, you're doing way too good a job with the, there, but I appreciate it. I would say this to, I would say this to that because I find that really

interesting. I said before about a class of score, right? And Kobe was certainly in that class. Like, you could do whatever. But he's another person that, like, would audibleize that to me in a game. Like, he'd make a move. Like, I'd do a good job on it because I had done my homework and I had this catalog of when we played and I might get a tip or something like that or just a little deflection. And he'd say to me, he was like, I forgot, I forgot you were really good at that. Like, it won't happen. It won't happen again. And I only say that to say, like, not everybody playing offense was on that wavelength you're talking about. Where, you know what I mean? Like, the most gifted scores were, where they had their catalog and they were like,

you know, all right, I see what he wants to do when I do that. But I'm not going to throw that back at him right now because he's waiting on that right now. I bring that out three quarters later and he's mine. Like, that's an interest in chess game that not a lot of dudes on the offensive end plate. Yeah, because I did a baby cross in the first quarter because you already had me thinking. I didn't want to pull my cross out until later but I saw you kind of bit. So the rest of the game, I just hesitating

and kept going the same direction. Hasid the same direction. Has he's same direction. I remember vividly. If you go back and look back, I guarantee we beat Utah by four late in early in the first year or second year. And that was one of the clinching shots when I made it, I used the crossover again in the fourth quarter

because I hesied up for three quarters straight. If it's the one, if we're both thinking of the same one, and I have cheated on this. because I looked up some stuff before we came on. I did find this was my first year covering the Knicks. This is December 2004, Utah at the Garden. You beat Raja. It's specifically written up that way in the game stories that night.

You beat Raja with a crossover and hit an eight-foot runner to clinch. It ended up being 94-93, but it did give you guys a four-point lead at the time that you hit it. I'm telling you, I remember vividly, and it was because of him. Like, I promise you, I was already thinking about him. I'm like, damn. So I did a baby cross in the first quarter and he kind of went for it. I'm like, okay, I'm a hezzi the whole time. I'm not, no matter what I want to do, I'm not crossing again.

Then the game got tight. I like, all right, this is the time to do it. And he went for the cross. I'm like, yeah, it worked because I was just holding on to it for sold for three quarters. But he made me, he's one of the only ones that ever made me do that. I'm so envious of that, though. Like, Howard, I never had enough of an offensive like bag. There was no repertoire there for me to be able to like, you know, I'm just surviving off an

open shots and shit. Like, my, my, my, we talked about our sons. Like, my middle boy has a chance, like, with his offense to be able to do that. I mean, not that he'd ever be that good. But, like, he's got some shit to him to where, like, you know, you could set some shit up. But I was just running around shooting open shots, bro, trying to get layups. Yeah.

You know what he's done? That's the thing. And not to sound like the old guy in the room, but that's the thing about our error. We did what we had to do so we could do what we want to do. You know what I mean? Like, we, hey, you have to play defense first. get out there to get some shots. You have to, when I came in, I was a point guard. Like, I had to throw it in the Elton brand. I had to, you know, move it to run our test. Like, that was my job.

And then if I was out there long enough and did a good enough job at it, you get a little more time and you have more time to kind of show what you can do. But that's how it went. That was, that was, you had to be accountable and you had an exact role of what you were going to do. Yeah. Jamal, you do not have to worry about being the old guy in the room on this podcast as long as I'm saying. Jamal, who hasn't aged a day since I met him in 2004. Stop. Stop. No, you still look good from the Laker days to the Nick days to now. It's a lot of moistureizer.

I'm just trying to hold it together. It's working. I want to get into some current Knicks chatter, now that we've gone down Memory Lane a little bit. I want to talk about Jimmy Butler a little bit. Before we get to all that, and I hate to do this. A quick somber note, Jamal, do you see the news about Chris Bernard? Yeah, I actually just literally posted one right before I was coming on.

It was so sad. I just, we went to a playoff game last year. And it was one of, actually, that may have been the first time I was back in the garden since I left or since around that time. So we went to a game together. And we sat at court side. And it's great. Matter of fact, when I posted when I went, it was like pictures of me and Ben Stiller

and me and Tracy Morgan and me and I forgot who else was there. But Chris actually took the pictures because we were together, which is crazy. Yeah, it was so sad. And he was in unbelievable shape and something like that. you just never expect to happen. Just a shocker for the listeners who don't know. Chris Bernard. Rest and peace to Chris.

He died, I think it was two days ago. Now he was 47 years old, three kids. The reports where it was a heart attack. So just kind of out of the blue. Great dude was work at the Knicks when I first started covering you guys, Jamal. Chris was there for years in a variety of capacities. Worked for the Players Tribune later. Just been around the game a long time.

Great dude. one of the real class, upstanding guys. And, yeah, just a shocker. I know that everybody I know in the just broader Knicks community was just all in the state of shock yesterday. And so just, yeah, thoughts to his family and rest in peace, Chris. Yes, for sure. I just talked to him last week back, which is crazy. Yeah, it's crazy.

Q. Richard, just talked to him because, you know, they were working together on the knuckleheads and everything. I mean, he did a lot of stuff with you guys specifically, right? Like he was on that, like the player development or player support side of things, right? For sure. And that's why, like, it's felt by all of us because we spent so much time with him. He did so much cleanup work for us. And what I mean by that is, let's say, you know, we're going to the West Coast trip and your family may be coming out.

He's the one that's going to set your family up, make sure everything's good, make sure you just have to worry about hooping. And it was always, I never seen him upset like he was always in a good mood. He was always happy. He always brought joy to the room. So that's a tough, tough love. I appreciated him, too, because as you know, Jamal,

like those were some rough years for the Knicks, and I'm a reporter. I got, I had to write about a lot of crazy shit and some tough stuff. And Chris never took that. Like a lot of people at the guard, like people fall in two categories within a team, the Knicks or anybody. There are those who are like just, you know,

kind of protect the shield mentality where it's like, oh, you're the enemy. And then there's those who just have that good perspective where like, we don't have to agree on it all. But like, if we have a conversation, like, he's just a professional and he understands, like this is the job and, you know, maybe, like, he, he definitely was, you know, a believer in the garden and the Knicks and everything else. And we had some interesting discussions about that

in later years when he'd left the garden. But he definitely was somebody who, you know, you could have that conversation with. For sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So anyway, he'll very much be missed. Very, very sorry to see that news. So you're back with the Knicks in a different capacity now, Jamal calling the 10 games this year. I don't know if that goes beyond this season. the last time you and I potted together probably a few years ago back when I was at Bleach Report doing the full 48, I think we talked about it right when you had made the transition and you finally decide, okay, it's time to take off the jersey, let's go do this. And it seemed like you were such a like, it was such an easy transition for you in studio.

I always think though, and I've talked to people in broadcasting, studio is the easier job than game commentary. Like studio, you can collect your thoughts. There's some time to breathe. Game is just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. But it seems like you have, once again, I'm not saying this to pander. Like, I feel like this has been a seamless transition for you. Like how, and I know you did a little bit of that, I think even with Turner before,

but what's it been like just kind of moving into that color commentary role? Yeah, it's been incredible because, you know, I started, like you said in studio. I remember some of the Turner bosses were like, would you want to call games? My first year? I'm like, no, I'm good. You know, like, I'm good. In studio, it's fun. You know, it's just no sweat out.

It's cool. And then I did the rookie sophomore challenge at all still. And I'll never forget, I got lost in the game. Like, I totally got lost. And it was like I was in Alvarado, Jose Alvarado, had like an earpiece in. So I'm talking to him while he's playing. It was like I completely got lost to the point. Left court sit next to me and Candace Parker sit next to him.

And they just go quiet. And I'm like, right. And left court was like, no, you're just in the zone. We were just like, no, you go. So I got bit by the bug, man. And I'm like, I told the Turner folks, I'm like, hey, you know, I want to call some games if possible it's next year. And they're like, okay, go to Summer League. So I went and did, I think two days at Summer League.

That went well. They were like, hey, we got three games for you this year. You'll have one on center court, one on another NBA TV day. And then you'll do T&T in January on MLK Day with Reggie and Kevin. I was so nervous to work with Kevin and Reggie. Like they have their own chemistry there. Like some of the soundtracks start childhood, right? So I'm like, okay, I'm on there, and it was completely like I was lost in the game again.

And the Turner folks, they were smiling. They were happy. Everybody was happy. And then the playoffs come. And they're like, hey, we want to pair you with them for the first round of playoffs. Now I'm like really nervous. Like, oh, my gosh, like this is the biggest stage. How did the three people is harder to do, as everybody knows.

Like, it's double that. You're in, you're out. You never know. Two people you could breathe a little bit more. And so that went so well. I was only supposed to do one round. That went so well. They wanted two rounds.

And the conference finals, they wanted me there as well, but Stan Van Gundy was already written in before the season started. So to say the least it went well. And then the Knicks reached out. And they reached out last year, too, the year before. And T&T was like, no, let's just stay here for now. But, you know, I'm working with Mike Green. Like, come on.

Like that, to work with Kevin Harlan and Mike Green and be able to call games, I'm almost like, man, me and you get to watch this game and talk about it. Like, it doesn't even feel like I'm really just called. It's like I'm just watching at a bar. or barbershop or whatever, and it's been so cool. And now I'm chasing that. Like, I want to be as good as I possibly can in that space as well. That's very cool.

You're great at it, by the way, man. I enjoy listening when you're on. Yeah, for sure. Did you know when you played that, or at what point were you like, yo, media is going to be an avenue for me? Did you start behind the scenes networking and laying down the roots for that when you played? Or was this something that just fell into your lap afterwards? It fell on my lap, to be honest with me.

Because I thought, like, the second half of my career, I'm like, I'm going to be in the front office. I go to LA fitness and put teams together. I'm like, I want to be in the front office. I want to make sure the teams are right. We got to have more basketball people in these faces. So I wanted to be that. I was hell bent on it. But the whole retirement thing drug out and I was still wanting to play.

And I wasn't going to leave. And I actually got seven offers to go front office or coaching. And I said, no, at that point, I started coaching my son. And I was, you know, just doing that. And I was good. I was like, okay, I have a new passion to help these kids. And then I remember T&T calls like, hey, Chuck's going to be. I want you feel in.

And I'm like, okay. Like, I didn't even feel pressure because that wasn't in my mind. Like, I got to go and press them to get this job. I was like, all right, whatever. And that's the time, Kenny threw the pen. And I chased the pen. You know, I thought I was going to chase the pen so he could beat me to the board. And I was so nervous.

That's why I went for that pin trick. So, and then I relaxed. And then I was like, it's kind of fun. Like, I can come once a week. I can still be home and coach my kids. And that's kind of how that took off. That's awesome. That's, what's it like,

You're sitting there with Breen. Like, we all have, like, listened to Breen for years. Like, long before I ever met Mike Breen as a beatwriter here, I'd been listening to him, long before you ever got to work with him, he's calling your games. And the dude's a freaking living legend. And I assume that makes it easier, too, right? Like, Breen is going to be able to put whoever's next to him probably at ease and set you up well, right? So I imagine that that part of it or being with a guy like Kevin Harlan, like, that's, you know, you're in the, the best possible position to succeed at that point.

Now you just got to talk about what you know. Yeah, it's like playing with the best point guards, right? You just got to make shots at that point. Like, they're doing the work for you, so to speak. Like, they're giving you the job. Hey, go finish that lead. Hey, hit that medicate. There's an open three.

So that's how I look at it. But that point guard just happens to be magic or Isaiah or Curry, right? Like the best of the best. So yes, it is easy by the way they're setting it up. But it's also pressure to me. I look at it like, okay, this is Pacino or DeNiro or Denzel on stage. Like you, you know, your part's a smaller part, but you got to bring it. So for me, I think it keeps me sharp.

It absolutely makes me better. And we had a great chemistry. So I would go back and watch before I knew when I signed with the Knicks. I'll go back and watch him and Clyde, just to see his cadence, just to see his rhythm, just to see how he's kind of, you know, we do it like we do, Rajah, when we watch and film, anything. We're trying to get better. So we're looking at things from that perspective. So I want to see his cadence, his rhythm, when he lets it breathe, when Clyde interjects.

and their chemistry is flawless, to say the least, but ours is really good, too. I think we've done five games together. We're five and O, by the way. We've done five games together, and there hasn't been one time I can remember where we talked over each other, so it's been really good.

Wow, that's great. That's pretty impressive. That's a pretty seamless transition. Interesting question, I ask it a lot to former players because I've dealt with this in my retirement life. Being as close as you are to it, having a little background, like you said, coaching your son,

even though you didn't take your front office or coaching opportunities in the league, you did get a taste of it working with your son, working with kids, being hands-on with the game. For sure. Does it ever tempt you in a way when you're that close to it calling the games that, man, I'm this close, but I don't really have any input on the outcome of the game? Like, are you ever pulled or swayed at all? You know what?

That's a great question. I think if I would have went into this calling games the first year or two out, I would have felt that. But now it's just a joy because I truly feel like I'm in a sweet spot. And what I mean by that is I'm connected to the older generation, like rest in peace, Mr. Bill Russell is a mentor and Kalini Wilkins, but I'm also connected to Victor and AJ DeBanza and like these my son and these younger kids. So I feel like I'm the sweet spot as far as teaching the game.

So I take great pride in that. How can I have everybody that comes from different backgrounds, different age demographics, look at the game in a certain way, and they all see it the same, where I simplify it in such a way that they all can connect to it, and they learn about it. Because I feel like when we're talking,

we're teaching, like we have a responsibility to that, for that younger generation, you know, to connect everybody, and I take pride in that now. But that's a great question, because if I had done it a year or so, I'm like, yeah,

I could go get 15 right now. I'd be in that place, and I'm not. You know what I'm in the place of, man, that was unbelievable move by Brunson, but the way he got to it was that push dribble. We'll see the final shot, but that push dribble,

gave him just enough space to sidestep and get the crack you need to make the read. You know what I mean? So it's more in that space versus the other space. You mentioned Wembe. You worked with him over the summer. That went viral, I think, because of Instagram photos or something. And then I know you talked about this on the Dan Patrick show and probably elsewhere. What were you teaching Wembe over the summer or tutoring him on, mentoring him on?

What have you seen this season? Have there been moments where you went, ah, yep, there it is. there's what we did back in June. That's interesting you say that, and I haven't spoke about this part of it. He reached out, and his team reached out to train, and I'm like, what's he trying to get better at?

Like, was hand on his footwork? I'm like, oh, I'm right at my wheelhouse, but let me just reach out to Pop to make sure the stuff that he's working on will go with the spurs and how they and me and Pop had great conversations before I even actually got to Texas about how he sees him, his next step, his next evolution,

And so when Pop said that, I know Wemby, you know, and his team reached out, but when Pop said that because I have such great respect for the Spurs and what they've done, I always felt like they were the goals standing in the league. I put the two together and I made a like a routine and workout just for both of those worlds to meet. Wimby works on his footwork and his handle, but it's also in the spaces and how they would do it and how they would get to them. For example, one thing was, you know, at the time, Wimby had a tendency when he set the

pick and row when he rode, he would. just stay down there. Popp was like, no, I want him to start hunting shots a little more. I want him to roll and then come back and catch it, that free throw line area with Dirk would catch it. So then I start putting plans together like that. And it was things of that nature. And it's funny I saw some people. What's he doing with Crawford? Crawford, the guard he handles. And it was funny because one of the main things, the thing we did most was footwork. And what I was showing him was footwork works anywhere. Whether you're at the top of the key, whether at the men post, we have the post, the footwork transfers in all three areas. And that was our huge focus for that week.

We worked out twice a day. We went for just short of a week. And it was incredible because stuff it took me years to learn, he can do it and download it in five minutes. It was incredible. He was like, okay, I got it. Boom. And he would go out and do it. And I was like, this is a joke. Like, this is not even right. You can do this and learn this this fast. So to see his work, to see his focus, to see what's driving him. Like our conversations, we had like beautiful conversations. Literally, like, his conversation wasn't of a 20 year old. It was of a 45 year old or a 50 year old. And he didn't even tell me this to that. I'm going to tell you guys, he read 50 books last year alone. He didn't tell me that. Somebody around told me that. And I'm like, what? But it makes so much sense because

he has such wisdom and he has such respect for the game. He has such, like, he has said, if he stays healthy, he will be one of the five best players ever. I'm not saying he's going to get hurt. I'm just saying if he has a full run at it, healthy and at that level. Because his work ethic is the way his mind works. He's like, and I've said that you've heard it. If LeBron and Kevin Durenne were playing video games, and we say they're creative players, they would create somebody like Wendy. I want somebody to seven, four, shoot threes, run like a gazelle, block everything,

throw dine, tail the ball, like he's that type of guy. That's crazy. That's crazy. Y'all, we talked about him briefly on the last pod. And it sounds like you're just kind of reiterating what I think I know already is that he's just, he was built to be a pro. Like his camp, like his upbringing, everything that was done. I don't know at what age it began for him. But clearly that you didn't just make a basketball player.

You were trying to make something that understood all that it entailed to be maybe the best player on the planet one day, right? Like that didn't just fall into his lap. Not at all. And, Rajah, to be honest with you, the thing that really really, really separates him besides the work ethic, besides the mind, besides how he's driven, which is a whole other thing. It's just, I'm talking just on the court now. He's a, he is a player we've never seen before, right, with the skill set and all that.

But he's also a role player with that. So he's like the best of both worlds. He'll sprint every single time. He'll try to get out there and take a charge. He'll run. You miss him on the shot. He doesn't care. Try tip it in.

He'll run. Like every play is max effort. Like he, he's playing that way just to be on the court. Right, but he has this otherworldly talent. So that's why I think he'll be all those things I said. That's super scary. Howard, I just want to geek out one more second because I think you talked about footwork. And as I'm working with kids, you know, high school level, even down to the youth level,

I was working with my kids two at a time. Like nobody wants to work in the post. And I get it. Like you turn on the TV and you don't see anybody down there on the block, really. But I try to tell them exactly what you said. Like, look, this isn't, forget about where you're doing it right now. that's irrelevant. Like this, you can use this.

This will translate anywhere, right? If you get the footwork down, you're good to go. So the other thing I really find fascinated about Biggs, when they typically say, hey, well, you were a guard, you can't work with Biggs. Well, a lot of the time I'm the person or you were the person facilitating where the big got the ball. So if anyone's uniquely positioned to tell you where you should be

and what you should do on a role or if I can't hit you on the role, where to go next, it would be the person who's delivering the ball to you, right? So I see it kind of uniquely from there. And then secondly, when you have it, I'm the person on the dig. I'm the one down there with my, I'm the one hunting the ball. So if anyone can give you tips

as to how to keep it away from someone like that, it would be the guard. It would be the guard. And to your point, Roger, when I'm talking to my young kids and talking to kids, period, even high school kids, I'm like, don't look at you going on the post to say, I'm a post player.

No, I'm actually a point guard just closer to the basket. Yeah. I get to score. You want to help. pick you apart. And that's where I say, think about it like a point guard. You're just close to the basket.

You can control everything. You don't have to just bang, bang, and shoot. That may be one or two times, but the other two times, you may have to get that guy way out there or open shot. Like, think about it from a picker roll or a point guard perspective, just down there on the block. And you're just dominating the game. I said, guys who dominate the game best that I've seen in my life,

Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, these are guards, right? Like, they dominate the game down here for everything else. They just became the points of the situation. It's like a QB moving the pocket, right? That's all the – Exactly. You're the same thing. We're just moving to pocket.

Moving to pocket. That's got to be fun watching Wemby do stuff in game that you guys worked on a couple months ago, right? It must be a real point of pride for you. And I did forget to say that part. No, absolutely. And he – it was funny. He was like sending me film, and I break down film and just watching things. And it's crazy because I was literally texting like, yo, that's what we worked on.

And it's seeing, like, there was even one play that went forward. viral when he was over in the Olympics before the actual Olympics started, but he was over in Paris playing. And they had different clips about, I guess, friendly competition or stuff like that. And he did a move. And people saw the end result. I think they saw the three of the dunk. And I'm like, yo, that's what we did. Like, you literally worked on that move in the summer. And now he's showing the world, which is really, really cool. And you're right. It's, it's, it's amazing to see that. And like, he retained that, right? Like, in the heat of battle, you could do it when nobody's there. But in the heat of battle, you could do it when nobody's there.

in the heat of battle for you still to instinctively go towards it and do it and feel confident about it. I'm like, wow. I got, I have a, Howard, I know this is the way we were going, a listener. I apologize. I'm going to be very selfish right now, but. Be selfish, right. You weren't selfish as a player. Be selfish.

Thank you. Thank you. So I have a son who is a freshman, PG. He just got on the ball last year. He was, I used him as a jack of all trades when he was younger, but 6-2, good body. having a really nice freshman year about 25 a game. Like, I didn't see him scoring like that. Hey, Raj, that's a legendary freshman year.

And then he's no, 25 a game is a freshman. It's a legendary freshman year. Thank you, Ma. It's pretty impressive. But I'm saying this to say that what I want to know from you is because I see his game. And I wasn't an offensive player like that. Three level guy, but likes one level way more than the other. Like he likes to be on top of the rim, which is weird.

Ken catch and shoot it or shoot. shoot it, you know, off the bounce from deep. But the mid-range, right, is where, like, I'm trying to get him to see, like, teams understand he wants to score. They're sending a lot of bodies at him. He's getting to where he wants to be. And now they're, like, there's a bunch of people around him. So I'm talking to him about, like, look, if you get to that mid-range, you get to this stop,

that double isn't, like, as present, or you have better vision on it and you can make the play out of that. We work on it, and it translates occasionally so I know he can do it, but it's not, showing up like you're talking about when be showing up all the time like what is the trick like i'm not i'm asking you as a teacher like what is the trick to teaching that skill articulating that skill and but then getting it to show up over and over in the bag i think i think a good trick for him would be maybe not now because they're in season but after a season get one of his friends get one he can play one-on-one but only mid-range shots count only mid-ease yeah just because you're just

tricking the mind right like you're all it is is tricking the mind so in repetition where you do it so much to second nature because he's naturally at the rim, he's naturally shooting the three. I'm not saying don't work on that, but I would absolutely do like one-on-one competition where he could only score in the mid-range. And he's specifically work on that

because he's just going to take the thought out. In the mid-range, as we know, it's like the jabbing boxing. Like it has to be needed. It's funny in analytics, and I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with him, but it's funny in the playoffs from the most important time of the year, analytics kind of go out the window. It's like we want whatever point we can get to generate to help our team move the

scoreboard. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I would absolutely have him play one-on-on-one just in the mid.

Yep. No layups, no threes. He has to do his moves, get there, stop on the don. And what's crazy is he has just 25, you said? Yeah. If he adds that,

I guarantee it goes up to 28 to 29. Like, it's just a whole, it's the hardest shot to guard because you're going full speed and stopping on a dime. I hated it. I hate it.

It's the hard. Think about you, one of the best defenders. That's shot you hated most of guard. Yeah. Absolutely. No doubt. Appreciate that. For sure.

All right, the shift gears just a little bit here. I had thought I had decided policy-wise. Like, we're just done with Jimmy Butler for a while. We've talked about this like too much. Don't be done my former teammate back. Come on, man, don't do that. I love Jimmy. Always been a big Jimmy fan. But like last night, holy crap.

So like, I feel like this has just been months of everybody calling each other's bluffs, right? The heat's like, we need Jimmy to play more. We're not giving an extension. Then it was Jimmy Butler's camp saying, oh, we don't want an extension. Actually, we want to go to free agency. Then it's murmurings about wanting a trade, but not maybe, maybe we want these places. Maybe, I don't know, there's all this, just whatever, just a lot of obfuscation, a lot of just. And then Riley comes out with a statement, which he never does, saying last week, we're not trading him. Enough of this. No distractions.

And Jimmy last night basically says like, well, A three, huh? Yeah. Jimmy's like, I'm not sure I want to be here anymore. Oh, happy? Yeah, I'm happy here. I'm just not happy on the court. you got to find my joy again. I don't know, guys, you played the game. Like, this is, this is the most important player on their team, obviously. This has been looming over them. And they've been trying to kind of tamp it down and just at least kind of salvage this season and then figure it out. But like, not to get hot takey, but I feel like last night is the night that the heat season died.

Because, like, Jimmy just laid all the cards on the table. You guys can speak to this from the teammates perspective. like if you know the guy's checked out, it doesn't want to be there. There's been a lot of talk about whether he's quote unquote quiet quitting, meaning he's like he's just going through the motions out there. Jimmy bristled said, no, I'm still playing hard, but he's not taking that many shots. Like, I don't know. Is it already over, I guess?

Riley's statement notwithstanding, is this thing just already over? And it's just a matter of time before they just find whatever deal gets them out of this mess. I think obviously they're saying who's going to blink first. I think Riley, as you said, Jimmy. also knows, I'm sure, that Riley doesn't just come out and say anything for certain. So for him to come out of the shadows and say, we're not trading him strong, right? They're stronger and even, you know, us from a distance will look at because they know how they operate. But Jimmy is basically saying, hey, I'll be here and be professional, I'll show up, but I'm not here.

You know, so we can play this game if you want. We can do this. But at this point, it goes from, okay, Jimmy and the heat are at odds to where does this lead into the other players? and the team. And that's where it becomes like, okay, we just have to, we just have to move them and continue on and look towards the future. Because right now, you can still get a lot for Jimmy Butler. You can still, you know, add to your team. But this is going to be a distraction for some organization that hates distractions, right? Like they like to stay focused. They like to stay locked in as much as possible. This is just this year, this goes back as long as, you know,

Rouse has been there and Spow's been there. And I think it's going to be a distraction until they do something so I don't see this last um Howard uh obfuscation is crazy okay just just crazy vocab word bro like I I had I while you all were talking and you were not looking this up over there roger that's not I was definitely not looking up offuscade um it's crazy but um like holy cow what can I say I was an English major yeah well done well played um so listen. Here's my question. And like, I don't know, Jimmy. I ain't played with Jimmy. I am a fan. Like, what that brother does on a basketball court to impact winning, I don't think is, is deniable in any way, shape, or form. What he's done for the heat speaks for itself. I'm curious

as to the root of this problem. Like, is it, you know, I've been a good soldier here. I've, I've basically single-handedly at times taken and drag this team to places that it would not have gone with the talent that I'm surrounded with, like, and I'm kind of frustrated at this middling, kind of middle of the pack heat situation, like, where are we going? I'm the star. Or is it like, hey, Jimmy,

we're going to turn this kind of over to Tyler now. We're going to need you to transition into the next phase as a player and need you to be a good soldier about it. That's first and foremost for me. I don't know what the root of it is from Jimmy's perspective. Like, and that's a real thing sometimes. Jamal, you know that for like guys that are used to, being the alpha.

And I think this is a, this is a, this is the heat's own, this problem is a, is the heat. And their ability to be viable, even when they shouldn't be viable, right? And it keeps them in that middle ground, it keeps them culturally in that spot where they look at each other and say, hey, is it time to rebuild this? And they can't let themselves do it. So they stay, Jimmy Butler and a bunch of others might get us to the promised land. even though we might not win it, but we can sell that to our fan base,

who was basically, you know, heat culture all the way. Like, they don't want to lose games. And I think you put yourself in this spot when you continually chase that instead of recognizing a year or so ago, like most of us did, that it might have been time then to start to do what you needed to do

in an effort to stack the chips for draft picks, for cap flexibility, and all of the things that could get you out of this situation. So, you know, those are just some thoughts. I don't have answers to it, but I think the heat made their problem. They sit here now, it is a rap. Like, make no mistakes about that. Like, Jimmy Butler versus Pat Riley, you give me two people with, with more ego than those two.

Like, I mean, I don't know. And hardheadedness. And hardheadedness. Like I, but I would be interested to know what is the root of this? Is it the first? Hey, Jimmy just don't get the type of help he needs and he's ready to go somewhere and try to win a chip in his last, you know, ride. Or is it like, hey, we want to transition this over to Tyler and the Youngbo's and we don't really see you in that light anymore? Raj, let me ask you this.

If you're, if you're Riles or you're the president or a front office guy making the decisions, are you riding what you just said and said, hey, I'm riding with Jimmy Butler. We see him do it time and time again. Or are you saying, you know what? It's becoming too much of a distraction. It may bleed into the future of our team. I got to make a move. Which one are you going to do if you're riles? Yeah, see, at this point.

it's a tough one because at the end of the day, like, you know, there is an element of your ego, your hubris, your man. Like, this man has basically come out and put your feet to the fire saying, you're going to trade me. And that's a tough bill for competitors to swallow. But I guess if you made me pick, I'd move him, Jamal. Like, I'm the guy having lived as a distraction late in my career in Utah, having seen distractions, there's nowhere to go when that's there.

Like, it's hard to be the best version of yourself and the best version of your team while that's present. So even if it means we take a step back to take two steps forward, I'm going to take the step back right now. And I'm going to make sure that, you know, we get that out. And then especially when I have a culture in place like the heat, which it's basically just, I don't mean to take anything away from the people boots on the ground, but it kind of runs itself.

Everyone knows what it is. So like we get the pieces in here that aren't the distraction, I think we'll be all right. Beck, what are you doing? I felt like they should have traded him a year ago because I just thought that this era, it was pretty clear. It would run its course, right? Like those two runs of the finals were amazing and defied all the odds, especially the second one. And but Jimmy's, you know, in his mid-30s.

And, you know, as you guys know, even in this era, right? Like, it's amazing what LeBron and Chris Paul are doing this late in their career is what Steff is doing. but in general in this league, when you get to your mid-30s, that's when you start to feel things slip and especially guards, you know, and Jimmy, you know, he's a wing, guard small forward, but like he's played a bruising style.

He's played a ton of minutes. He played under tips for several years. Like, there's just a point of diminishing returns. And, you know, they're just, they're just not good enough to overcome Boston and Cleveland and the Knicks, Philly, if they're ever healthy, Milwaukee, whatever. And so at some point, you've got to pivot, easy for me to say, right?

And now, especially with the situation as it is where they didn't want to give him the extension. So, Roger, your question, I don't know. I'm not going to say I know this authoritatively, but I think there's two problems right now. One, he didn't get the extension he wanted last summer. So that's putting him in a bad mood in the first place. I forgot about that. And then two, yeah, things are shifting hard toward Tyler Hero as primary, you know, playmaker, you know, first option on offense kind of thing.

And Jimmy's sitting in the corner feeling like this is not who I am. This is not my role. I'm Jimmy freaking Butler. I don't blame him. Like I get that. But the heat are doing what they feel like they have to do to put themselves in the best position, not just now, but going forward where Tyler here and Bam out of bio are going to be their tent poles.

And yeah, if Jimmy's not on your timeline anymore, then it is time to move him. But cap-wise, it's tough because if you, you move him, you don't want to take back. They're in position to have a lot of cap room next summer. And I think they want that flexibility. So Jimmy stays and opts in. That hurts them in terms of their ability to be flexible next summer. Jimmy walks away as a as a free agent. Okay, you lose them for quote unquote nothing, but you gain a ton of flexibility to do other things with that cap room. In a time when the NBA cap room is really tough to come by and flexibility is tough to come by, you're in a good position to do that. So if you trade him, you don't want any contracts beyond

this season probably, unless they're really small. So that's, that's, that's hard to do when he's making $49 million and with all the matching rules that there is. So I get why the heat have not been eager to just make an in-season deal. Maybe this haven't found the right deal. Maybe this now, you know, Jimmy's now reversed things again in terms of like, who's the pressure on. Well, now it's on the heat to like resolve this. Maybe they have to take a deal that they don't want. I don't know. Are they going to call his bluff again and say, fine, be miserable, sit in the corner, or you know what?

We're just not going to play. I don't know. This thing could get really ugly in a hurry. But yeah, if you're asking me, yeah, move, you know, move them in the next four weeks. You know, you know what's interesting, man, because I'm, I'm here and I hear the chatter and I'm, everyone around me as a heat fan. They can be so, I mean, they're an interest in fan base, man. And even when the whole world knows that the heat really can't win,

like the Miami Heat fan is, we can do it. Like they've just been, man, they're in. There's a heat exceptionalism going on there. It's like, it's like Lakers exceptionalism. Yeah. They always think they're the best. I respect the hell out of it. Like, it's interesting to walk around amongst, but like I respect the shit out of it.

But even amongst that fan base who love Jimmy B, a lot of people are out down here. Like a lot of people are like with last night's antics at the breakfast. conference. That was like it's, it was a tipping point. There are a lot of people that are like, and I mean, two days ago we're team Jimmy guys.

Wow. And now they're like, no, dog, like, that's ridiculous. Is he getting booted at the next home game? I don't know. I don't know, but a spattering of them, I bet. Yeah, man.

Wow. Not a position you want to be in. Jamal, you guys played together where? Minnesota? Minnesota. And at the time, we were, no, I wasn't on the team when he did the Minnesota Roller. when he came in there with the four bench guys and went and beat everybody with Rolex.

I wasn't on that team. It was the one. It was the one that happened. That one, which by the way, became one of my favorite all-time Game of Zones episodes. But that's not here or there. Missed that. Missed game of zones. Go ahead.

It was the one before that, that Minnesota hadn't made the playoffs. I think 14 seasons we came and Jimmy came, Jeff Teague, Todd Gibson, myself. And yeah, we made the playoffs. It was unbelievable at the time. And he was unbelievable teaming. Yeah. No, and that's the thing, right? Good Jimmy is like a great freaking teammate and a guy who everybody wants to go to war with and get behind and all that stuff. But like Jimmy in a bad mood or in a bad place or doesn't want to be there anymore. Like, ugh. Yeah, I think he's at a point honestly, just from the outside looking in, where a lot of guys get to where it's like, okay, man, you've been this phenomenal player and you still have huge value to a winning situation. But we've got to. scale that a little bit. Like it might not be exactly what it looked like for you when you took the

heat, you know, to the finals. Yeah. So then the equation is like, what is that worth? Who would be able to take that on? Would you be okay with what they have to offer you in terms of that role, right? And, you know, that that's something that a lot of guys can't wrap your mind around until you're in it. Like, it sounds good. Like, sure, dude, I'll come over there and do that. I'm good. Like, let's do it. And then you're in that and, you know, Jamal, like, we ain't winning the way we're supposed to be winning or, you know, like, things aren't producing the way we thought they were. And your first instinct is to be like, well, I can save it. And then it just, and therein lies the problem, right?

Because you ain't here to do that. Right. Oh, absolutely. That was me going off the bench. I'm like, yeah, I can do it. I can come off the bench. I went off the bench the first game. I'm like, what is this?

This isn't it. So, no, I totally get what you're saying. Let's talk a little Nix, Jamal's former team and current assignment in the broadcast booth, although not on tonight's game. Nicks are at Oklahoma tonight, and this is interesting for a bunch of reasons, not least of which, of course, is that the Thunder are one of the best teams in the league. Why'd they favor to come out of the West? The Nicks are among the contenders in the East. It's become a really interesting race, not quite the form that we thought it would take, because who that has? hell saw this coming from the Cavaliers.

But Cleveland, Boston, the Knicks, again, we'll see if the Bucks and the Sixers get back into this, the Bucks have really picked themselves up. The Sixers are just all over the place. Jamal, like, what have you seen from the Knicks this season that either convinces you that they're in this conversation as a contender or that still makes you question whether they've got another level to get to be there? And what is that, like, in a game like tonight, like you guys. are both, you know, former players who people like me would come to you and say things like,

hey, is Jamal, Rajas, this a statement game tonight? I don't know how you guys feel about that as players. I hate that as a reporter. But we do, like, there are games that you guys will downplay when we ask, but in reality are kind of like markers of sorts or just a gauge. So, like, how important is this game, Jamal, for the Knicks? What do you think we may learn as they take on a team that we absolutely know as a contender. Are they whole? Because Brunson didn't play last game. Is he scheduled to play tonight? Yeah, and I don't know that right now. As we sit here at just before 1 o'clock Eastern,

I have not seen an update. Yeah. So, and even if he is playing, I'm not sure he's himself because the cast soft tissue injuries, you're scared to push off. You don't push off with the same force. You don't, you know, provide the same energy. But let's say they were healthy. I think it may not be a statement game, but there's certain games that you look forward to, you get a little extra juice and you can't even control that like man i'm playing against okay see tonight she's having an MVP year you know she may be like man the nicks are rolling you know they're playing it out of their mind but what i've seen from the nicks so far is the way they play

together their balance you can see they have a blueprint to get six guys in double figures we know the five stars would be there one or two guys off the bench and the special thing about them is that cat and brunson can slip between the top dog at any time and the other one doesn't care. Like most teams like, okay, this is a top dog, this is a second guy. They slip between hey, it's your game, you got a better matchup. You may have 35 and I'll get 20 in support

or vice versa and it changes game to game and you can see they play with no agenda. That's very rare in the NBA because both teams, OKC as well, younger version, they both brought like a college-like college-like togetherness to the pros. And as

Roger would tell you, the pros is at times a selfish league, right? So to get, and people said I was kind of selfish, but I wasn't. But to get that type of camaraderie in the pros, you can see how they play. And Tibbs is really, we've got to start giving him props too because he's known as a defensive

guy, defensive coach, or his offense has been humming and has been. It's like historical levels. Obviously, you have Cap, you have bridges, you have Hart, you have Brunson, but the way they're humming, and they're still missing Mitchell Robinson. Right? So they have a puncher chance in the East because their style of play, they can play every night like that.

And then defensively, the last thing I said about them, their defense is a star player in itself. When they get stops, the ball is just hopping. It's like adding another star player to their team when they're locked in defensively because they're so good offense. Yeah. No, you were, well, listen, it was, the league was a lot different than to, Jamal. Like, you did your job.

Like, we had more, the role definition was a little. different back then, right? So like, like, you was coming in doing what you, you did. In this today's NBA, I was doing my job running to the corner, shooting threes, defending, like, there's so many, there's so much like crossover now. All of these guys have skill sets. They play wide open. Like, it's less of a defined role, I feel like. And I don't have a question. I'm just going to second what you said, because I think it was, it's a great point. Where I thought they came up short a little bit last year was just how reliant they were on Jalen to get buckets in the in the playoffs. Just, you know, surely from a start with a size perspective, even though it's incredible

what he does, you know, that's a hard thing to ride all the way to a championship singularly. But you put you put a cat with him who can who can do it from night to night and give him the night off and then flow in between those two roles. if you haven't sacrificed much on the defensive end, which they have not, and the ball's humming around where we're getting roll guys involved in a way that can support us with 15, 18, 12, you name it. Like, I think they're much more dangerous when it comes time in the playoff than they would have, than I would have said they were last year. Yeah, and they have, there are three best perimeter defenders.

OG, McKale, Josh Hart. They're like, they're like you. They turn down no smoke. They turn down no phase. They want to like lock in on that. And you have Kat in Brunson who are, you know, maybe the best guard center, not actually tandem, but stats-wise since like Kobe and Shaq,

which is crazy. And I'm not comparing them whatsoever, but I'm saying just their numbers right now are like, they're unbelievable. And they love playing together. Like you could tell at times Kat had to take a backseat last year to Anthony Edwards. You could tell Brunson had to take a back seat to Randall. they don't take a backseat.

They just work together. Hey, it's your night, let's go. It's your night, let's go. Another one's important. And their personalities are built for each other. And I think cats at the right time, they're both at the right time in their careers as well. No, I just,

it's always been fascinating, right? Because I did spend a year in the front office mall. Like, I went back with the Cavs and I was there. And you can do all of this breakdown on paper. You can do all of this analytic breakdown of how skill sets are going to mesh and how, you know, Howard and Jamal are going to play great together. We get them here. which you can never quantify is those damn personalities.

You just can't do it. There's no recipe for it. And that's the cool thing about team building for me. And it's cool to hear you say those guys are kind of like that with each other. No, that's like seamless with those two, right? And like, Jamal, you saw it up close. Like Jimmy and Kat, not as great a fit. Jalen and Kat, it just looks like they've been doing this forever.

Absolutely. And Kat will go in there and not. Brunz is a man. Brussels, like not cast the guy. Like, they're at peace with each other. They're not competing, you know, with each other, competing for each other. And it's a difference.

It's a huge difference. And you could just see it the way they play. I cover two games. I think one game, Brunson had 38. The next night, Brunson had 15 and Kat had 35. So it's like, and then the next night, OG had 40. It's like they literally, I saw a stat.

I don't know if it still rings true today, but just two days ago. I think they were the first team in history to have four guys for four or more points by January 1st. Four different guys that have 40. McKale, OG, Kat, Brunson. That's just in your start lineup. You know what I mean? That's wild.

Yeah, that's wild. And two of those guys are considered, like, role players who, like, just fill in the gaps scoring guys, right? Like, McKill, he's been a go-to guy at times. O.G, not at all. And so, like, that's pretty well. But I think that's one of the hallmarks of this team and what I've really loved about the next the last couple of seasons,

ever since this group kind of came together and Brunson became this version of Brunson. It's like, this is a really selfless team. Like, yes, Jalen Brunson's got a high usage rate out of necessity a lot of the times, especially when they've been banged up so much like last season. But he's not hunting for shots. He's not trying to be like, oh, I've got to be the guy every. Like, that's not his personality at all. He's a totally selfless player.

And you can see how much everybody loves playing off him. And, you know, Kat has been every version of since being a number one overall pick. Like, oh, you're the franchise savior. Oh, no, you're, you're, you're, you're, you know, co-hosting. stars with Wiggins, your co-stars with, with Jimmy, with, and like you said it, Jamal, like these are guys who are just, they're not just comfortable with each other. They're comfortable with who they are themselves. And they both are clearly guys who do not have big egos to feed. And everybody else, like, they're all, they're all just like selfless play. Josh Hart just fucking

plays his ass off every minute of every game. Like, like, how could you not love watching that guy play? Like, you'd never be the most skilled guy you'll ever watch. But he just buses, butt. And like, that's, that's the personality of this team. Like, I think in some ways, like Josh Hart, I don't know where he ranks in terms of importance to the team, but like, does he, I think he embodies the Knicks almost more than any of them, just because of the way he plays and gives everything on every possession. But they're fun. They're fun. And I do think, like, they're in it, right? Like, you, Jamal, you said it. David Puncher's chance. Interestingly, their defense for the season is like, I think 12th in defensive rating. So they're just

outside the top 10, so they're average-ish. Although they've been top three, I think, over the last 10 games. They've got the nine-game winning street going. Schedule's been a little soft, so who knows. Like, this is what I'm really curious about. They haven't seen Boston since opening night. They haven't seen Cleveland since opening week. They have not seen Oklahoma yet until tonight. They have not seen Memphis, Houston. So they haven't, like, they haven't had a true test at that level yet. So that's why I go to the cliche, annoying statement game thing because, like, yeah, I'm curious to see what they do tonight against this team. And let's see, hopefully Brunson plays. And they just got back pressure to chew it within the last few weeks, right? And then who's one of their

better defenders? And then you see their defensive number shoot up. And then Mitchell Robinson, who's their rim protector as well. So it's like, there's still room for growth. And I know Tibbs play for him. He's going to continue checking boxes. He'll continue to try to get that defense going somewhere in the top 10, this February, March creeps up, you get whole again. They obviously trust each other. They have high character guys, too. There's no slippage with that. There's not like, oh, we have a really good guy.

And this guy tries to bring everybody down because he's not happy. It's like, no, we only bring in good guys. They fit. They're at a really good stage. And the way they shoot the ball and the way they pass it, they have a chance. They truly have a chance if they can get those timely stops and timely hoops because they check every other box. I want to close on this. One last one to squeeze in here. LeBron James just turned 40 last week. Did he? Or did he turn 20 twice? This guy is unbelievable. My goodness. Absolutely unbelievable. He is still playing at a very high level. I know the advanced stats are not flattering for him right now, but the raw stats are still incredible. And the eye test says the dude still makes an incredible impact on the court.

Jamal, you made it to 40, still in uniform. It's a rare, rare thing, especially for smaller relative to basketball, not smaller relative to normal people like me. But guards don't usually make it to 40 in particular. LeBron is not like anybody else on earth and much bigger, obviously. And guys of his size, I think, have made it deep into their 30s. But again, not to 40 and not producing it at this level. So it's incredible. And I am not rushing him off this stage. I hope LeBron plays as long as he wants to or as long as as as as possible. But you guys both had that moment. You know, Raj, you were 35, I think when you retired. Jamal, you were 40. How do you know when it's time to go and how hard is it? And I'm not, again, I'm not rushing LeBron off the stage. But that moment's coming sooner than later. And I just wonder what it's like to go through that thought process, that emotional process.

For me, I think just watching LeBron, he literally can play. He can be a really, really good to great player for another four or five years. I really believe that. But mentally, does he want to do it? Like, does he want to lock him mentally? Does he want to do the ice baths and the stretching and the cold foam and the massages every single day? And Raja or I were never at this level. So it's a totally different, like, walk off versus when, you know,

you're one of the very best players to ever play arguably in the goat conversation. Like, where, how do you exit? How do you know is that 17 to 18, 7 and 6 still enough for you? I went back and looked, I think since his sophomore year of high school, he's only not average 25 points twice in that whole span from sophomore year until today. Like, so that level of greatness, I know Becky saw Roger's face right there and it was very fitting when I said that step, but that level of greatness is totally different to walk off from. So I don't know whenever it's time, how he exits, what he feels like if those numbers just

aren't going to cut it because he's been at the gold standard for so long. But knowing him, I could see it whenever it is time. I can see it being one of those Kobe, like year-long things where it's like, you know, we got to show him grace and appreciation for whatever comes because he's only going to be in the city once or twice more. So I don't know. I don't know if his number's like 20, which would have been a career year for me, like 20 other people are like 20.

I'm out of here. Like, who knows? I don't know what his bill is. I think his mind is like whenever it is like I don't want to do anymore. That's it. Yeah. And he deserves the tour. Like he does like to make no mistake about that.

Yeah, listen, I can I can only speak to to my own experience. I've talked about it before, Jamal. Like when it and you touched on LeBron's. And what people don't realize is just how much goes into getting that body ready at the age of 40 to do that. That's another full-time job. You know what I mean? Just keeping that thing running like that. And so for me, I clearly I wasn't doing all of that to my body and I wasn't that level of player.

But my priorities had shifted. For whatever I did as a routine to have myself ready to do what I did, I wasn't locked into. it anymore. I wanted to be home with my boys. Like I wanted to, I wanted to be home, you know, doing something running around, wrestling with them. Like shit had just changed a little bit. And it wouldn't be the same for him as family's older and so on and so forth. But there does come a point where the juice isn't worth the squeeze anymore. Like you ain't willing to do it the same way you did it to get the result. And that's, that's the beginning of when it's, you start to wrap your mind around like, man, is this, is it, this is happening?

Or in the first three steps out of bed when you go, I'll Ouch, ooch, out. You only want to take them steps. It's like, like, you're on hot cold. You're like, oh, man, now you're warming up. You're going to put your feet in warm bath just to move around the day, like, with peace. Like, it's different, for sure. I would give him this advice, though, because I'm dreading getting up out of this chair once we're done talking on this.

Stay moving, my boy, even when you retire, stay moving. Stay moving. That's what I'm still playing. Still playing the pro-ams. I got to keep moving. Keep moving. Jamal, you got hurt, right? Like in the, was it in the bubble?

Maybe you got like a hip injury or something, a hamstring something? It was hamstring. And you know this back after covering me the first five years in New York. I never lifted weights. Never ever. I just went and played. I played. I had my little stretching routine.

I played in the bubble. Here I am. I hadn't played in 16 months. I get the opportunity because of COVID. The team goes in the weight room. I can't be like, yeah, I'm coming. I ain't doing that shit. Like, no, I'm thankful to be here to get this opportunity.

I went in the weight room, did some hamstring curls. And the second I did, I said, oh, I felt it. And I knew it. I'm like, what did I just do? And I felt the hamstring go. And so then I got back, worked out, practiced for about a week, came back, and then it went again in the actual game. But when it first went, it was in the weight room.

The weight room was the best defense I saw in the bubble. I'm telling me. And then, but that's when you knew, like, shit, I'm not, I'm not, this, this is not worth it. I'm not. No, no, actually, no, because if you remember, okay, so quick story, the last month in Phoenix, and people know the last month, you know, guys, some of Melody and some whatever, I was like, I'm playing, I don't give a shit.

So I had 30, I averaged 31 points and six assists off the bench for four games, right? And I'm 39. And I'm like, cool, I'll at least get another year. Don't get signed, 16 months. I come back to the bubble. And I play that game, and before that game, I told Jack Bond, I was like, I want to come against the bucks. And at the time, they had the best record in the, but he's like, you're sure. I'm like, yeah, just go a low zone on defense. I want to go come back against the bucks.

And I have five points, three assists in five minutes. And then that happened. So after that, Brooklyn was like, we've seen enough. We've seen enough. Let's get you back healthy. Kevin and Kair excited. Let's get you back next year in Brooklyn. So I'm thinking I'm going to play that next year. Didn't work out that way. Yeah, that's how it went. That's how it went. All right. So just to close on this then, was there, what? like what was your moment where you said okay this is now official in my own head like this is it like there's not going to be another comeback there's not this is like we're just we're done and how emotionally excruciating was that and even like you again you made it deeper into your into your

career than most um just age wise um but i know like you like you're still not out of the gym like you've got you were you're people can't see it but like you'd you had popped your your sweatshirt at the crossover uh your your your proam that you every summer in Seattle, like you're still playing, of course, because you're you. You will never not be playing. But when it's time to stop as far as the NBA goes, I imagine that was a deal. It was tough because then, you know, I won team A of the year before. And I'm like, so you can't question my character.

I just show I could still move. I can still play. And I was fine with any role. But what happened was I never forget it was my birthday. And I up into that point, I start having more time in my house where I'm kind of away from people just thinking more, thinking more. For my birthday, we were at Michael Jordan's restaurant. And it was me and my wife,

and it was like to have a casino and stuff. And all the way back, I said, this is the night. She's like, what do you mean? I'm like, this. And I'm retired. And I'm not to see her, she's not even an emotion like, to see her cry. She knew I was like, tears coming. I'm like, this is the night. This is it. I was tired of allowing the other people to make decisions on my career.

I'm like, I played this long. I want to take power back and say, no, tonight's night. I'm not waiting for anybody. me more. I'm not, this is it. Yeah, that's how I went. That's a great, that's a great story, dude. And I just, like, obviously, my career wasn't like it, but I just want to, that's how mine ended. Like, the, you know, I went down the way it did in Utah, but like, what I went to, to San Antonio, and I was supposed to work out. And, you know, it was going to be like, hey, man, let's just kick the tires, make sure he can move, so on and so forth. I got out there. There were, there were motherfuckers coming out, all getting into a van and shit. And, you know, I was going to, and shit. And, and,

And I looked around and I had that moment. I said, no, I don't want, because I came in like that, Jamal, like being in advance with 30 dudes, you go to the meat market, you beat each other up. They call one of you back. And so I had a similar but not the same moment, which was like, yo, I'm going to control this. I don't want to do this shit anymore, bro. Like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to be trying out for nine teams, just trying to

catch on one more time. And the last thing I'll say that part of you guys is in the Jordan is full circle because we're in his restaurant. I had never been. And it's like two hours away, almost towards Portland. And it was crazy because Michael Jordan was the reason I fell in love with the game

in the first place. I said, I'm in his restaurant, this picture. It was fitting that I ended it there as well. So it was like a full circle moment on that regard. That's really cool. I love that.

I guess, yeah, LeBron, when he hangs with it up, it's not going to be because he doesn't want to stand with, like, or 20 other guys in a meat market workout. That's probably not. happening. I think he's earned the right for that, not that. Yeah, he's definitely on the right. Won't be to me, Mark. It'll be, it'll be his call. That's for sure. Jamal, this has been awesome, man. So glad we got to do this. Thanks for making time for us coming on.

Always, always a pleasure. We hadn't done in a while. So just good to see you. Hopefully, cross paths in the arena here sometime soon again and we'll have to get you back on again. I know there are career moves coming that cannot be discussed yet publicly, but that there may or may not be. They're coming. They're coming. Things are happening. People can just Google Jamal and broadcasting, and you'll find it.

So looking forward to seeing much more of you on there. Appreciate it. Thank you guys, man. You guys are doing great. I always love coming on. It's only my second time, I believe. So we got to do it again at some point. Anytime, both.

Right, right? Anytime next year when I make a move or something, I have something more to talk about. No doubt. We don't need an excuse. You can just, you're welcome anytime. There you go. Guests of the program. Jamal's a great. Thank you so much. Thank you, Raja. Thank you, producer, Isaiah. We will be back Tuesday, Tuesday, the long-awaited return of Logan Murdoch to the real ones. Do not miss that. Can't wait for it. It's going to be an emotional show, I think.

It's been a while, Raja. We have not seen our guy. So can't wait for it. Thanks, everybody, for joining us. Don't miss us again on Tuesday with Return.