The Ringer NBA Show - Trends and Lessons from the 2023 NBA Finals | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 11, 2023

Justin, Rob and Wos debate what trends and lessons teams will take from the 2023 Finals beginning with how the Nuggets and Heat were built as well as the future of the center market (03:42). They then compare the Nuggets depth and continuity to the Heat and debate how much having both mattered in the playoffs (22:32). The guys dive into the Heat’s usage of the two-way player and G-League as they credits their front office and scouting department for being able to find and develop players that fit their system (37:51). Also, the guys debate if Erik Spoelstra has reached the level of Gregg Popovich and give their predictions for Game 5 on Monday night (47:17). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Jessie Lopez Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may find this hard to believe, but 60 songs that explain the 90s. America's favorite poorly named music podcast is back. With 30 more songs than 120 songs total. I'm your host, Rob Harvilla, here to bring you more shrewd musical analysis, poignant nostalgic reveries, crude personal anecdotes, and rad special guests, all with even less restraint than usual. Join us once more on 60 Saws That Explain the 90s every Wednesday on Spotify.

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me two guys who are stepping away from Bernie

the mascot's bedside. Rob Mahoney, Big Was. Guys, thanks for joining me on this somber, somber occasion.

Yeah, we need to start a dialogue about what happened at at, you know, he nuggets game four

featuring one Connor McGregor. Did you guys see any of this on the broadcast? No. I can't remember if I saw it

on the broadcaster on Twitter, but I remember seeing the punches was thrown by one Connor McGregor. And it was more vicious than I think anyone expected.

And apparently it was. This isn't Charles Barkley having a fun back and forth with the mascot and balking the guy on the head. This is a freaking professional fighter taking this way further than he needed to. But I mean, that's why he's kind of McGregor, I guess. Well, even before that, even before the punches started being thrown, it was like, it was one of the strangest things I've ever seen at an NBA game, which is Jason Jackson, the Heat broadcaster, came out at mid-court during like a timeout with Connor McGregor, and they did like an eight-minute segment on his new product, which were not even going to...

McGregor was like hawking some new product that was now a sponsor of the Miami Heat. And so they went through this elaborate spiel as if they were selling you a timeshare. And at the end of it, he just like won clocks Bernie and knocks him over, which I assume was part of the bit and then yeah, delivers this second apparently knockout punch. You know, Connor McGregor crossing a line, who knew? And that did not unfortunately galvanized the Miami Heat in that game, right? Well, I mean, it's not like it was Nicole Yokic's fault. Like, you got to take it out on Connor McGregor.

Rob, you are now on the road. You're probably not in Bernie's shape. But how are you feeling now preparing to go into game five? when did you start this journey a week or two ago? I have been metaphorically punched in the face by Connor McGregor the Connor McGregor that is the

NBA playoff schedule but look we're rallying, we're rolling, we're wheels down in Denver now, we're anxiously awaiting game five. I think it's going to be a great time now might also be the end of the series. I can't say I'm anticipating going back to Miami but if it swings that way, who could

possibly complain about another day on South Beach? Benvenito in that instance, yes. Blas, you're fresh, though. You're fresh legs off the bench. Yeah, I feel great. Incredible win for the Nuggets last night. And I feel like the game might have even

ended before 11 p.m. somehow for once. Nice. And yeah, man, I'm good. I'm good to go. I'm fresh as a daisy. Actually going to a birthday party after this, just like my man, Ben Cruz. Wow. What a day to celebrate. We're going to get to a game

five preview for the game on Monday. But first, I want to take a step back, and I want to kind of assess where we are now and kind of the takeaways from these two teams making it to the NBA finals. Around this time of year, you'll see a lot of people trying to draw conclusions, trends, lessons from the finals team. I think not only just in the media, but also on the NBA side. What can we spin forward from what these teams have done in order to bring into our teams into our culture? admittedly, I think at times we overreach at this point, in part because I think for a while tracking these trends was interesting and then like most things it got overdone to the point where we might say it to ourselves like, oh, we draw too many conclusions from the most recent

result as opposed to something that's actually a trend to carry forward. But that's why I wanted to talk with you, fine gentlemen, just to see like what is a trend? What is a lesson? And what we see it happening more and more in the league. And I do want to start with the biggest one on the board, which is one that we've been tracking year to year, probably since the Warriors came to form with small ball and whatnot. And Charks back in the day would be very good about kind of tracking this to see, like, who was kind of the queen on the chessboard, right? Like, is it going small? Is it these unicorns coming in? And so I asked Rob, does size matter? How much does size matter? And where do you think we are in terms of not only the center position, but like playing big

versus playing small? Yeah, this is the perfect place to start in this broader trend conversation, because we're sussing out, is it a trend or is it a singular talent that is exploiting something in this particular finals, a la Nicola Yokic? I think the answer ultimately is the same as it's been in recent years, which is skilled size matters, right? Denver does not play a single big that can't handle and pass and shoot. Everyone can do a little of everything. And in fact, one of their biggest transformations in terms of the rotation, especially in the non-yokic minutes, is exercising all

the bigs who couldn't. You know, your D'Andre Jordan types, who is like, okay, they don't really fill the need we need them to have offensively. So I think that's kind of where we are. And that's the guys of the Warriors played off the floor. Those were players who either couldn't hang defensively or couldn't be dynamic enough to contribute offensively. I think we're still kind of in that place ultimately. Yeah, I think the Nuggets are definitely a beneficiary of a world and a climate that Golden State dictated, right? Everybody decided we need a bunch of rangy, stretchy wings.

And also, if we're going to play a big, he has to be able to play in space. And generally, the type of bigs who can play in space on defense cannot guard fucking Nicola Yokicich. It's like you just can't possess those. two things. I go back to the bubble. When the Lakers beat these guys kind of handily, even though some of those games were really close and went down to the wire, they had Dwight Howard and AD playing and finishing certain games, right? These are, Dwight Howard won like five defensive players of the year. Although he was not at that level, he was still really good at defense in 2020.

And Anthony Davis, as we know, is a defensive player of the year threat. every single year. They had two of those dudes on the team and they could address that matchup. And, you know, the beauty of their versatility was that AD could be like, all right, remember when AD used to cry about playing center? It was like, all right, against certain matches,

you have to play center, the Golden States, the, you know, the Portland's. They're going to stretch you out and be attacking and putting pressure on the three-point line. But then against the Nuggets, it's like, all right, we got a bruiser too. I think the nuggets are beneficiaries of the fact that teams,

for years have been chasing light-footed, quick-footed big men, and nobody had anybody to guard, Yokic. You got to figure the Lakers backup big. In 2020, it's even Javelle McGee, who he's no Bill Russell, but

you know, whatever, he's a big body. He's not Winnie and Gabriel. You know, this is what we're talking about, you know, Jacques Laundale. You know, these are the backup bigs we're talking about that Yokic went up again.

And I think that's what the difference is. I don't know it's a trend, but I know everybody goes into the offseason who sees themselves as a serious contender. They're like, how do I form my team in a way that can beat the champs? This offseason, people are going to be like, how do we beat the nuggets? Right. Well, I think that's a good question then, because it's similar to when the Lakers won the title in 2020 and also when the Bucks won in 2021, where it seemed like these unicorns we all expect

to kind of dominate the world, ultimately became those type of players. And I think you saw a mini swing, perhaps, from the big wing of Kauai being the guy you all had to look out for quickly to, oh, everyone needs to match up against this size. I wonder, Rob, are you still, is that still where you are? Like, if you're a team kind of coming to the fore, it's like a piston's a magic, are you like, damn, we need to get to a point where we have guys to guard these guys? Or are you looking at it more like, well, actually, if we build a bulletproof small ball team with enough size like the Celtics and Warriors in last year's finals? And to a certain extent, like we're saying with the nuggets, that they just have size across many

positions. Yeah. Like, where are you leaning toward? Yeah, I think what's interesting about that conversation and the broader unicorn conversation, like how you counter these guys, I guess ostensibly Yokic and Yonis are both unicorns. They could not be more different as players and what you would want to counter them could not be more different.

I don't think there's like a one size fits all option. I am a little bit more drawn to exactly the way you laid out. Size across the board. Not just for the switchability, but for what it gives you in terms of the glass, what it gives you in terms of cross-matching and transition. What the nuggets are showing is that

there are so many ways for everyone to get jumbled up on the floor. And Yokic is so expert at not only attacking guys in the post, but picking out exactly where everyone is and everyone who could ostensibly have an advantage, that's really dangerous. And if that's kind of where we are, where there's enough of those playmakers around the league, whether you think about Yokic, or you think about Luca Dantzich, whether you think about any of the great passers in the league, who can exploit mismatches in that particular way, that makes me a little nervous as someone putting

together a team and thinking about like, oh, can we even afford weaker links? Can we even afford smaller guards on our roster? I think there's a credible argument based on the matchup in this series that maybe having a point guard who's shorter than 6-4, 6-3 is just

not a viable thing for huge minutes unless that guard is just great at bodying people up. They have incredible hands. They can play bigger than their size. There are some guys who are exceptions to the rule in this way. But you really need to be able to match up across the board physically to compete with a team like Denver. And not every opponent is going to have that.

Not every champion every year is going to have that. But we know the Nuggets are going to be in this mix to stay. Their core members are young enough that you have to account for them. Yeah. And to me, if you're not going to be able to make Yokic uncomfortable defensively in your matchup, you better be the type of player that makes him uncomfortable on the other end. Meaning, if you can't guard this guy one-on-one cool, you better be a stretchy five then.

You better give me the ability to play five out and have this guy play out in space. Or you have a Steph Curry, you have a Dame Lillard, where he's forced into the action by the guy with the actual ball, right? Like, I think the thing about the clippers, Kauai, Leonard Paul, Joe, is like, these are great players, but they don't put pressure on the center that way. These guys are ultimately mid-range assassin.

same with KD and Devin Booker, right? Like these guys were mid-range attackers. I think we would have got a fascinating series with the Warriors. Ultimately, I believe Denver would have beat them because this Warriors group was kind of bad and disconnected, but they would have presented an incredible problem for the Nuggets defense in Yokic in particular because they abused them pretty badly in last year's playoffs, right?

And so to me, it's not like you go overboard, and just start signing all kinds of centers like a mad person. I think you have to think about what Denver's deficiencies are and whether you could put together a roster that exploits those deficiencies. It's a great point. We had considered Yokech's weakness to be, oh, what if he has to step up to guard these guys pulling up? Is he going to be able to get to Katie's jumper or Devin Booker's jumper?

Well, Aston answered. And really the blueprint, as you were saying was, is like you have to have the ability to pull up from three and get all the way to the rim scampering around him because if you allow Yokic to play back, he's shown in this series like he's going to use his length really effectively. He's going to challenge lots of shots. He's going to get hands on lots of balls.

He can impact things if you let him stay still or stay static. By the way, turns out those advanced stats guys that said that Yokic is just as good guarding around the rim as Joelle and Bede are true. Man. I don't think that's true I really don't think that is what they're saying Who was there was someone who was on this podcast

Who was making the argument that Yokic was like Actually a pretty passable defender by the numbers It kind of bore out I can't remember who it was but we'll have to check the tape It's nothing to do with the fact that they're so good on offense That he could play in a set defense Like pretty much 90% of the time Turns out that helps

He's a large man in the The best defense is a great offense, Justin Yeah, exactly. If I was like as big as a queen-sized mattress and I could just sit in the paint and just swat away gnats, like I would do well. Justin just can't let a yokech compliment go by without a snide remark. Just to make sure that people don't think we're on the take for the nuggets like most of the people on NBA's area. Mike Malone is my guy, man, Northeast guy, New Jersey guy. You can call him, Long Island.

Yeah, Mikey. We call it Mikey in the neighborhood. Yeah. All right. But to get to the other side of this, like, where do heat fall into this? Because on the one hand, they do have a lot of those two-way guys that I think a lot of teams are lacking. Like, not only two-way, but guys who could shoot threes, as we've seen time and time and time and time again in this postseason. Unfortunately, it seems like, bam, despite all of like how advanced he is and how skilled he is, particularly passing the ball.

he's almost like too traditional and yet not big enough for this matchup and so like when I look at the heat broadly it's like oh yeah they have some things that are like in in step with the times with all of these two-way guys on the other hand I wonder like is Bam too conventional because like let's say they they look at their roster this offseason they want to take like they want to get a little bigger right well can they add size with two non-shooters with Bam being the other one and is he going to be, are they going to be able to get enough shooting on the floor with him there? You know what I mean? I think we're overthinking it.

You know, Bam has had great playoff performances in the last two years against Janus and against Joelle Embed. That's their competition, right? Like, you want to think about, okay, what if the Nuggets make the finals and we also make the finals again? And we have a repeat of this matchup. But I think that you really can't get that far ahead of yourself when. ultimately, BAM is a good answer and a good counter for the vast majority of the Eastern Conference field. And that's what you want.

Yokic is going to give everyone trouble. Like, show me the defender who can stop him right now. And BAM, I think, is doing a fair job of like trying to front him and get around and bother him. He's doing about as much as anyone in the league right now can. Yokic is just that unstoppable. Yeah. That makes sense.

I do look more broadly at the center position, though. And I wonder if BAM is around the league. cutoff for what amounts is a center that you can really pay. This is something that I've been tracking for a little while here, where I think for a good time now, there has been this assumption that there's almost like, and it pulled to an extreme of where the Senate position is. You have like the minimum guys and you have like the superstar,

supermax sort of players and that there would just be a chasm in the middle. Surprisingly enough, there are still a lot of centers making a fair amount of money and I do wonder like... And they all play for the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's true. But no, you look at like the supermax guys. Carl Anthony Towns, Yokic, Embed, Janus, Gobert,

and then even the Max guys, A.D., Aiton, Bam, Porzingas. There are definitely some spotiness in that field. But as soon as you get past that kind of tier of money making, you get into like the Vucevix and the Capellas and the Turner's and the Allen's. And I do wonder more broadly if we're still at a place where we're almost overvaluing even like the B level centers. And that when we see someone like Jared Allen kind of struggle in the playoffs and openly admit that he wasn't ready for that stage, like I wonder if a guy at his level and also a guy who was highly drafted enough that you feel like you need to overpay to keep in order to retain,

that is where you get into the most difficulty. Take cat for instinct, right? The second he inked that deal, I looked at that and I was just like, that is a terrible, terrible contract. That is justified.

Like, they had to do that. But at least they could say to themselves, this man is an elite offensive talent. He is a bona fide weapon on offense. We pay for elite. capabilities. You can say that. I think when you get into the Vucovich, Capella, even my guy, Miles Turner, that's when you start saying like, are you elite at anything? No, right? But Miles Turner's a really good defender. And he's, he found his three-point shot again. And so it's like,

all right, I can pay you. But I think to get paid at the tippy top, you have to be elite at something. Gobert, for instance, used to be an elite defensive player, right? And then if you are really good at something, then you can also get paid. Anything else, man, if you're just getting by, you know, like, you're respectable. Like, to me, you're just a scrap heap guy. Yeah. Yeah, I just, I wonder, like, if teams with, like, Nurkish at Center and Valenciunus and Mitchell Robinson, I almost feel, and maybe I'm just saying what is kind of conventional.

is incredible at defense, though. And rebounding. Very good offensive rebounders. He's got like identifiable playoff traits. Those other two guys you mentioned NERC, like what does NERC is do for you in a playoff series?

I guess theoretically he could probably beat some small man switches. But not even really. He gives the little push shots that like aren't consistent against those types of matchups. He's a scrap you've got to me. Players like him are tough. I think what's interesting about this broader

situation is, it's not like any of these teams set out to, oh, we really want to pay our center $30 million. It's just they get stuck and they have a really good team and their center becomes a free agent and you have to pay them or else you just lose a very important part of your team. And then all of a sudden they're making $35 million and you're like, what do we do with DeAndre Aiton now? You get boxed into those corners all the time from a team building standpoint in the NBA, but I think never more painfully than when you sign a center and that center does.

doesn't live up to what you need them to be in playoff basketball. Yeah, that's a great point. And I do wonder if that error or that sort of worst case scenario becomes worse in the new CBA when actually paying, we might even see more extremes in terms of who is making a lot of money versus who doesn't, like basically a flattening out of the middle class. I just think it would be crazy for a team to go out and give, you know, a middling, like a Claxton or, well, maybe not Claxton, but like a younger

big or say like Wiseman, let's just say he develops into something close to what we thought he could be. He's young. He's athletic. Yo, I'm going to pay this guy, 35 million because I think he could hold up against Yokic. That's just,

that's not going to work. And that's another one where it's like, I wonder, given how high the rookie scale is for high draft picks, I wonder if teams are going to be warded off from drafting big men higher even still, because how many years do we go into the draft for it's like, can't draft a center,

like they're not going to be able to play in the playoffs, and all of a sudden, Wise, yeah, Wiseman and Bomba. Bomba makes like $9 million to $10 million a year, in part because he was drafted so high, you know? So we'll see about it. I think it's interesting too when you break down the salary brackets of what bigs are being paid right now,

or even just look around the league at like, okay, if the template is, who are these skilled bigs, who are going to be very important to playoff rosters, years from now. There's not like a big wave of up and coming young centers with a ton of ball skills. You know, there's like Alper and Shangoon who who knows what he'll ever be defensively and even offensively has not shown that he can be like a productive hub of a stable team yet. Other than that, it's guys who can do like one thing, but not all the things. You know,

maybe they can pass a little bit, but they can't really handle. Maybe they can handle, but they can't really shoot. Like, Claxton is a great example of that, of a guy who like, would I rather have Nick Claxton at his price point or some of these other guys, you know, your Voochievich's or your Wutchevich's or your Jared Allen's at their price point. I could understand the argument for Nick Claxton, but that dude's also about to be a free agent and also about to get paid. So it's just a matter of time before these guys hit the market. And then you have to overpay to keep them. All right. Next on the list. Was depth slash continuity a sneaky a sneaky advantage as Star

Trades ravaged rosters across the league and parody kind of reign this season. Rob and I have talked about this off mic before where I think it's pretty well established and not to take away anything from the Nuggets, but this was one of the most parody-filled

seasons in NBA history. Going into the season even the favorite had the smallest odds since 1984-85. We wrote about that on the ring going into the season. And so I think that bore out where we knew who the good teams were,

but I don't think anyone could say confidently that this one team was the dominant bores, et cetera, right? Well, let me push back on that because I think going into the season, that is true. Having watched these Western Conference playoffs, do you feel like there was a lot of parity there? Probably not in the West, but I also don't know how to reconcile the playoffs with the regular season at this point. Tell me about it, brother.

right and so like I would still probably say like if you were to flash back in hindsight I would still say I would expect the title to go to the bucks the Celtics the nuggets and whoever else who am I also might mean maybe maybe the Sixers or something the Clippers you love the Clippers I don't remember that um but so I would still say that this was a little bit more of a flattened title race than we have in years past where it was like Warriors cabs every single time.

And even not then, like Celtics Warriors wasn't too much of an outlier. Like, he are the biggest outlier in recent history, probably one of all of history. So I don't really know how to answer that. I mean, to me, like, I hear what you're saying about that, about depth and continuity.

But at the same time, the Boston Celtics had both and managed to flame out quite embarrassingly not continuity in the coaching spot though well that's fair you could argue too much continuity maybe

on the coaching staff as a whole yeah and so to me I think it's the same as it's ever been in the sense that you need to have a game breaking star man like you need to have a guy that has Eric Spolster switching up game plans for the seventh time in four games, right? Like, you need to have a guy that can break shit open, make the defense divert extra resources,

and everything else falls into place like that. Because look, they got Bruce Brown for a pittance, right? Like, he's a good player, but ultimately teams are like, yo, if I have the right stars, I can make somebody into a Bruce Brown. They watch Christian Brown have one good game. It's like I can get a guy to do that one or two times for me in a series. And so I don't know. I've never really been a whole depth person because I'm just like people like Mike

Dan Tony and Tibbs are going to play six guys anyway. So like what are we even talking about in the playoffs anyway? And so I'm not there on a depth issue, although I will say, man, the talent level of the NBA is at the highest that it's ever. been. And the worst teams in the NBA are not pushovers anymore. Right. Like, remember that Bobcats team that won like eight games the entire season? Like, we, that just doesn't, that's not a thing anymore. There are no talent depleted teams like that. And I think part of it, too, is these non-playoff teams, like, they can get off of good players, straight up. Like, just look at the jazz. All of the good,

the useful players. They just got off of them. Yeah. And sent them to teams that, you know, did well in the playoffs this year. Um, or even, uh, or even somebody like Mike Connolly, he really helped Minnesota. But guess what? They got, they have Aunt Edwards. Like, it's really helpful. I know this is going to sound revelatory. It's really helpful to have stars. Well, let me make the case that like this is a kind of an outlier year in terms of everything. So I have 14. that would have otherwise been right at the top of the title race that were struck by injuries in other sort of situations and the clippers, the warriors, their situations being Jemann

punching a teammate to start the season, which they have now conceded probably derailed everything. I don't know how much that is just like attributing everything to that in retrospect. But who's to say? And then Wiggins. I think we are to say. I think literally anyone is to say it tracks. It's true. And then the Grizzlies similar situation, Pelicans lost Zion.

on yet again. But I feel like those things happen to teams and contenders throughout a regular season. So to me that's not so much of an outlier. What is an outlier is you had this rush of superstar trades and a lot of teams depleting their depth and most of their roster

in order to get that big guy in there. Namely, the Cavs, obviously with Donovan Mitchell, the wolves, the Mavericks midseason with Kyrie Irving, the Lakers for half a season with the ghost of Rust of Westbrook, the Nets, eventually trading all their guys midseason the sons eventually. That is six teams that would

otherwise be in the mix some more than the other. And so I wonder if I step back, like the Nuggets probably would have been in this race regardless. They could have made the finals against a lot of these teams at full strength, right? Not taking anything away from the Noges. Certainly the Clippers. Certainly the Clippers. I do wonder if their odds were increased. If only because while all these other teams were figuring their shit out, they already had everything in house. They had a rock solid five that is one of the best in recent memory. And they also had two or three other guys who've come and shown that they could create a playoff rotation. And so did they have enough depth and continuity at the right time? Is I guess what I'm one. Here's the interesting thing about that

is we talk about the nuggets and all the continuity that they've built. And there's truth in that. But also in terms of who has played the minutes on the roster this year versus last year, they have some of the least minute continuity in the entire league because of the injuries. So, like, Jamal Murray is on the roster. He's been a nugget. Michael Porter Jr. has been a nugget. But overall, year over year, they have not had a lot of continuity. They've had to remake a lot of things on the fly.

And in addition to that, KCP, Bruce Brown, Christian Brown, all new to the team this year. So they kind of made that rock solid five. And to the extent that they have depth, there have been playoff series this year where they went seven deep. And that was kind of all they could really play. So they're a fascinating team in that clearly they are deeper than the Phoenix Suns,

who just like did not have the bodies to compete against the Nuggets. But I don't necessarily think of the Nuggets as like a bastion, this like a Boston Celtics-esque construction of a team. They're a really good five, or maybe a really good six, really, I would include Bruce Brown in the six. And then you have Jeff Green, who's going to give what he can give.

Sometimes it's going to be better than others. Christian Brown, unplayable in some matchups, but very effective in others. That's kind of where they sit, and that's been enough. But it's been enough because Yolkich and Murray have been great.

And Gordon and Porter have generally been very, very good. And that's enough. I think what matters, too, is that they didn't have to give shit up to have their stars, right? they drafted these guys. If you can draft a star,

if you can sign a superstar outright and free agency, that makes your team building exercise a lot simpler because you're not diverting resources and sending picks into 2050 so that you could, you know, get the guy that's ultimately supposed to change your fortune. So once you're operating from, I never, like my baseline, again, they went to the conference finals in 2020.

They were hurt in 21 and they still want to playoff round. People forget that. They still want to play off round. And so what are we talking about? Playoff actual success with their continuity as well. And again, they didn't have to swing a KD trade. They didn't have to swing, you know, a Paul George trade. They didn't have to do that kind of thing to bring in the people who make their team go.

And so that's why I think they're operating from a, they've always been operating from a position of strength. And guess what? If this thing wouldn't have worked this year, I bet you they would have been on the phone for Dame Lillard. You know what I mean? If that was something, if it would have blown up in the playoffs,

if they got beaten five games in the second round, they'd have been like, you know what? We're packing up one of these young dudes. We're going to send some pigs. We're going to go get Dame Lillard and change the way we operate in here. And so to me, that's what it is. It's like drafting or signing outright guys that make all the difference for your team. And there were points in the process where the drafting and the development of these players

and how far along they were was a little bit more controversial. Like I remember when Jamal Murray got his massive extension ahead of schedule. There was a lot of public pushback about, are we sure you want to give this amount of money to this guy who's proven some and looks very talented? But why wouldn't you wait and let it be a restricted front? agent and matched the offer that comes. But no, the way the Nuggets operated was they drafted well. They paid big money to keep guys in house. Some of those bets paid off. Some of them didn't, but they were able to get out from the ones that didn't. And ultimately, they end up here with

two guys who work incredibly well together. Yeah. I think the Murray consternation was more, A, like you mentioned, they gave it to them as soon as possible. Right. And B was top dollar as soon as possible. And on the one hand, you could argue, like maybe that helped all the good vibes trained to continue on. I think that's a question or like a fallout, like a negative fallout that wouldn't bear fruit until later on when they need to stack contracts on top of what are now three max contracts, right?

So, yeah, but it did work out. And to your point, and I think both of your guys' overall point, I do think having a bulletproof draft system and development system, probably one of the best for, what, five, six years to the point and we've talked about this before, like that they could trade for an Aaron Gordon by giving up guys like a Gary Harris, who at one point was part of that bulletproof starting line up until he kind fell off. RJ Hampton, another guy who was like at least intriguing when they got rid of him and draft picks and yada, yada. So that's interesting. But where did the heat? I do want to get into like the

heats, like feeder system. But I do wonder, do the heat fit into this conversation at all in terms of like depth and continuity? Or are they just such an outlier that like trying to draw anything from this team at this point is just really difficult? I mean, their continuity comes from the top though, right? Is that they're able to set a standard and a wait for it, culture within their organization. Like that's what you're hoping for, right? When you keep the same guys around player-wise. And there's this expected level of excellence that the players can dictate.

Like, that's usually what you're hoping for. The heat have manufactured that culture and that standard via management. So I think that's something totally different and can't really be replicated anywhere else, right? Like, you're not going to sign the next GM and say, go do what Pat Rowley does in Miami for us. Like, it's just, you just can't do that.

But that is continuity, though. It's the same guys in charge. It's the same people holding every single person on the team accountable. And that is, you know, that's consistency. It absolutely is. And ultimately, they do have star continuity relative to the rest of the league. Like Jimmy and Bam haven't been together for decades at this point. But even just having a couple of years together, I think they're in year four right now.

That's more than most star duos can claim. But the interesting thing about the heat model is that top-down consistency that you're laying out was where because it is organizational, because it is from the scouting department, because it is in player development, we talk about all these heat success stories. But the reality of those success stories, by and large, is that the players who go through that system and come out better and improved, they're almost like grist for the mill a little bit. They come in, they play well, they get paid, they leave. they're not necessarily guys you bring in and they're just gonna stick around for years and years and years

unless they happen to get a contract that's too big to move but ultimately they keep finding people to replace them like that's what the heat are so good at it just kind of so happens that the players that they find ultimately are kind of shown the door

in a lot of these instances yeah that's kind of the paradox of the heat culture it's that you get good and just like good enough to push them out the door right and I think it's funny that there are already reports, and I don't even know if we'd call it a report,

but at least Win Horse had a column up today, basically suggests them like, yeah, the heat are probably going to go star hunting this summer because they found out that they weren't good enough in order to go toe to toe with the nuggets. Did you guys see, by the way, Chris Haynes had a column for Bleach Report about the idea of the talent gap in this series,

and Eudonis Haslam had some very choice words about like, just in disbelief, about the fact that anyone could think that this Nuggets team was more talented than this Heat team. Look, I know there's a lot of pride there. I know these guys are competitive. I know you always think that your team

is good enough to win, but what are we talking about? It's Max Truce, guys. Like, come on. We don't got to do this. Well, there are also people talking about how Yokic's athleticism wasn't appreciated enough

to the point where, like, redefining athleticism. I'm just like, I don't think that's where we need to go. this. He's brilliant at a lot of things, but I don't know if he's particularly athletic. He is in good shape. I think that people do confuse that. He is in good shape. He's in incredible condition. Yes. There's playing shape and then there's

just like having... There's Instagram shape, you know? Right. For me, for me, with Yokage and his athleticism and his playing shape, it only matters for one reason. And that's that it's just send a message to white Americans everywhere that if he could do it, you could do it.

That's what I got away from it. Like the summer, I'm going to Barry's boot camps every day, man. Serbians are built different, guys. I don't know what to tell you. If he can do it, you can do it. But I do want to have the two-way kind of conversation because as much as talk to death, like, it is still absolutely incredible what the heat have done.

So seven undrafteds on the roster alone and two additional two-way guys who are also undrafted. Here's my question. On the one hand, I think you're seeing a lot of people suggest like, oh, this could be a new model, right? Especially as the new CBA makes it tougher to sign guys to bigger contracts. It's going to be tougher to stack adult contracts. You need some of these other finder sort of guys, these hidden gems. To this point, Denver swung a weird-ass trait in the midst of their finals run, where they traded a far-off pick for more recent picks with the Thunder.

And specifically in order to keep the Blood Boy system going where they have a bunch of these young guys. guys that they could just put around Yokic and Porter and Murray, right? My question is, are we at the end of things? Like, is the fact that this is getting so much publicity almost like the New York Times writing about a trend and then it instantly dies as a result of that? Like, it reaches New York Times status and then it's almost too widespread. Because I will look around and, like, part of what makes the heats two-way success so good. And John Hollinger wrote about this very well on The Athletic.

I would suggest people go and check this out, is that they're constantly cycling through people. They're not like caught up and just like, they found this one guy and we're going to like hold on to him for two to three years and we're going to make this work. They cut five two-way guys loose over the course of a calendar year. Unfortunately, in the new CBA, there's going to be a third two-way slide, which means there are fewer guys to cycle through. And so I wonder, Rob, do you have any thoughts about this? Do you think like, or have you talked to teams and there will? like, oh, we're so excited to make the 2A G League almost like a Meyer League system?

Or is this actually way tougher to replicate? And not only just because of like whatever development secret sauce that he has, but because like just the systems at work are also going to be more complicated and difficult than people think. They are going to be more complicated. But I do think the third spot helps to your point about like it's not a proper farm system,

but the way of the G league sets up now, you don't actually have control as an NBA team over everyone on that roster. You don't actually get to claim them as part of your system. They're just these two-way guys. Anyone else can be claimed by any other team. And so the idea that there's even just one more prospect who you could invest in their development as an actual member of your franchise, I think is beneficial. The problem with trying to replicate any heat model is they do it better than you, right?

And some of it's not just from a scouting standpoint. If you don't have someone in your front office who knows how to work the cap like Andy Ellesberg does, you're just not going to do it to the same effect. And so this is a team that works the cap very well, who develops players really well, who has very strict standards about how those play, what kind of shape those players need to be in, and scouts incredibly well. It's a very tough combination to find and to build, and it takes time and it takes continuity. And really, it takes decades of work to put yourself in that place as an organization. The one thing I think you can model is just taking the G League operation seriously in general. And not just because you get to pump your own prospects through it, but you get to see everybody. The other side of what I'm saying about like the G League not being a proper farm system is you can claim the guy who rolls in on the Texas legends because he's not protected by any means.

And so if you're good at plucking people from other teams' developmental systems, you can do what the Celtics have done, which is like Max Drus. Other teams had other opportunities to sign Max Drus. A couple of them did. And they had him on the roster. And they said, this guy's not good enough. And he plucked him out of those situations and were able to help him, like, help him, like, actualize himself as a player. And the reason why this matters is that essentially with this new CBA, the owners that finally hard-capped the league. league. Like, that's just straight up what you're running, effectively running up against, right? And so,

you're not going to be able to do what the Warriors did last year, which is have Wiggins, have Steph on a Supermax, have Clay on a damn near Supermax, have Draymond being paid basically more than an average power forward, you know, have Otto Porter, like have, like, pay, you know, Jordan Poole, an extension in the offseason. Like, you're just not going to be able to stack guys, known quantities the way that you used to be able to. And I think this two-way stuff, this Miami stuff, you know, even though teams aren't as good as the heat,

they better figure out a way to do it because it's the old way of just being able to, you know, manipulate the cap with all of these tricks, all of these accounting tricks, which is all like the bird rights and stuff like the arena's rule and blah, blah, blah. Like these are all just accounting tricks. They've effectively shut off all of these loopholes to stockpile talent. And so, yeah, teams are going to have to figure this shit out.

But one way the heat have been able to work that system that I think teams, even in that new CBA, can model, it starts genuinely with like using your actual roster spots, not just your two-way spots to give actual young prospects a chance, even if they are undrafted guys. Like Gabe Vincent came in as a second, like first and second year player was getting, at least as a second year player, was getting genuine minutes with the heat rotation.

You look at other franchises and the guy, their last roster spots go to one of two groups, who the star wants on the team, you know, guys they've known before, guys. They played with the four guys that used to be good but aren't anymore. Or the Quinn Cook roster spot? Hypothetic. You know, look, Quinn Cook,

amazing hang, apparently. Yeah, has to be. Indisputably. Elite. Elite hang. Or a favor for an agent for someone who either is on the roster or they want to be on the roster. And look, if you use your actual roster spots for actual basketball players who you think might actually be good, it turns out there's a tangible benefit to that.

Yeah. There's also a, third subcategory of players that the coach just likes because they know the playbook, whereas as opposed to like the young guy who makes a ton of mistakes that they now have to coach and spend a lot of time coaching through. Totally. Yeah, it's a really good point. I mean, Austin Reeves in a lot of ways is like the prime example of the good and bad of this sort of thing.

And so like when you strike Rish with a player like that, and to this point, like, I don't know if he has found someone even on his level. He might be like the top tier of what you can get. out of a two-way guy. Unfortunately, he immediately needs to get paid. And we're now talking about Reeves getting close to what would be his max, not like max in terms of like supermax and whatever, but like he almost immediately needs that money.

And you get caught in this situation where like, what do the Lakers do if they let him go? And so to a large degree, like it's not just that the heat have been successful at this. It's the volume of success. And I just don't know if that's going to be replicable. Like even if teams that are good at this, maybe you do well one out of every 10 two-way spots or something.

That would be amazing. The heater like pretty much at 50% at this point. But the heat has four. They have four of these guys on their freaking team. How about a team just find one, right? Like, you know, I'm friends with a lot of Golden State Warriors fans. And all they do is cry about the lack of development of the young guys. Like, there's just been no developmental gems anywhere.

Those are lottery picks. Those are high-drafted. first round picks and high-drafted players. So just get one. If you're a real team and you can find one max struz to add to your rotation for cheap as hell. Like that's a big, big find.

I will say I am excited to see more two-way guys or guys getting chance on two-ways. If only because these guys tend to be just like the most beloved players on the roster from the local fan bases. Like, what does a fan base love more than the guy who came out of nowhere that was homegrown, that's just like a total weirdo nothing.

And all of a sudden, he's making big ass shots in the NBA finals. Like, I want to see more of that. And it almost might be a nice little counter to all this star trade movement to the point where like there was a rumor this week about Hardin potentially going to the sons in a trade for Chris Paul. And I'm like, the amount of like reunions in that one scenario just fucking blows my mind. I can't even think about it. But the two way guys, like, I want to see more of those. I want to see Max Struz, like, come from fucking Sue Falls,

and all of a sudden he's, like, drilling five threes in a final. That's awesome. That's all you want. You want the broadcast anecdote of this, you know, this guy was playing in Delaware this afternoon, and he just got called up to the team. He's still chasing the hive from Linsanity. That's all that is. Aren't we all was?

There's a real, like, I was in Delaware half an hour ago heat drop here that, the movie heat, not the team heat, that I think would be applicable. But we'll side that one. Well, the other big part of kind of the developmental pipeline with the heat is also just Spoh and what he's been able to do, particularly in the postseason. Here's my question. Has Spoh reached like 2017 pop level where he is able to, I wouldn't say add wins in the postseason, but certainly increase your margin of your odds for winning? and is that partly a product of potentially some of this parody that we were talking before? Does someone like Spoh all of a sudden mean more when like actual rostered, like lineup decisions

and like playing certain defenses at certain times? Does that matter more when the talent level is potentially theoretically flattened? What do you mean reached? To me, Eric Spolster is probably one of the. the five best coaches in the history of the league. In the history of the league. Wow. Wow. I think he's shown himself capable of coaching all types of types of teams, star-laden,

undermanned, everything in between. He consistently gives those teams creative, like, applications of their talent. He's in that, like, very sweet spot where he's open-minded, but he's accountable for the things he tries. He's a good communicator that knows his shit. He can work with stars, but he holds those stars actually, like, accountable and he isn't afraid to coach them. So the idea that he's adding, you know, whether it's points or wins or, you know, fractions of wins, however you want to look at it, I think he's absolutely in that group.

I don't think he necessarily had like a big ladder to climb here to put himself into that territory. Yeah. Obviously, I think he's the best coach in the NBA for sure. You know, again, I'd rather have stars. You know what I mean? Obviously. Yeah.

At the end of the day, like Mike Budenholzer, got to the finals and won, you know. Like Frank Vogel. Mike Boodholtz is sitting on his couch and he can't even escape. Got to the finals and one. Like, I just think to me it's like you're more likely to get a star, honestly, than it is to get a coach like Eric Spolstra. So you're saying this isn't a Brad Stevens,

like you would only trade five players to happen. I remember that nonsense. That was so ridiculous. No, I don't. I don't. I think Spoe is Spospo, but again, like, even with all of his wizardry on game planning and all of that, like, you can't replicate the support that he gets from management.

Yes. Like, he can push around any player. Most coaches don't have that leeway because they don't have Pat Riley looking everybody in the eye and saying, nope, it's Spoe. It's not you. it's us, right? And so, like, even to that extent, you know, I find it hard to sort of use Spow and what he's doing

and say, oh, you know, this is going to be a greater advantage. You can't even achieve that. Your owner's Mark Cuban. Well, what about more specifically, and this is the last one I have in my list, zone defense, which the heat have used effectively this postseason, more than any other team in the postseason at this point.

Unfortunately, did not play it last game, probably which speaks to maybe it's an effectiveness or maybe it's just like the effectiveness of the Denver Nuggets. Like Rob, do you see zone being used more at all as a result of this or was this just, is this just another heat thing? I think it's more of a heat thing. I mean, if you think about the only other team over the last five years that even did a comparable amount of zone in the playoffs

to what the heat are doing right now, it was the heat in the bubble. That was it. That's really the only other team that's played this much zone. And we didn't see in the aftermath of that some big wave of other teams trying this. I think there's a couple reasons for it. One, being that some coaches, a big chunk of coaches, are just kind of allergic to it. They think it builds bad habits.

They don't put pressure on the ball when you ask pros to do it. They think high-level players can beat it. And so they don't want to spend a lot of time on it. And certainly in a league where there's fewer practices, now even few to shoot-arounds, to be honest with you, the idea of dedicating your very precious time to oh we're going to build this whole other defense that will probably fail. It's just not how a lot of coaches want to spin those windows

and so I don't think that there will be a lot of applications of it. But plus, honestly, you need players who have a really high aptitude for defense to run it at the pro level. And you may not think of the Kay LaBartons and the gay Binsons of the world as those types of players but they were signed to the heat for a reason and it's their capacity to play really hard.

It's their understanding of how to work in space. They had what the heat needed to fill those particular spots. Even quote unquote good defenders or good man defenders, we've seen time and time again at all levels of competition, college pro, international. Being very good at man defense does not make you very good at zone defense. In a lot of cases, they are totally opposite skill sets. I like the heat zone, but zone is bullshit.

It's a fucking gimmick defense. Honestly, it works against a group like Boston who literally just could not figure this shit out. Right. When you're not playing against an unfocused, mentally untuff team, like, say, Denver, the shots that they get are layups, dunks, or wide open jumpers when they beat the zone. Like, when the team figures it out, they get plumb looks against. Freaking zone defenses. I don't see it as a thing. And, you know, if I were, if I were a GM or something,

and my coach was like, hey, man, I'm about to do the heat zone thing. I'd be like, bro, no, no. Keep your man in front. Man and ball. Syracuse ruined this for everyone. And now everyone just associates the zone with kind of not being able to play defense. You know, because it was such a trick at the college level. Getting an actual defensive stance.

It's not that complicated, y'all. Are there anything else you guys want to hit here? Who you got in game five, Varyer? Put your money where your mouth is. Well, I picked the nuggets in five. I remember you saying, what? Six. Six.

No. Nuggets. This guy's disrespectful. I can't believe this guy. The nerve of this guy. I picked the nuggets in six because of my respect for the culture. but yeah I think they're gonna beat these guys

in game five at home it really does feel that way anything you gleaned Rob from being there live at game four despite like the perhaps like the excess bloodshed from our friend Bernie that we were spared of

just a vicious fight you know I really wasn't anticipating that as part of my timeout entertainment I think one of the things that popped for me from game four was we probably need to have a more thorough conversation about Jamal Murray specifically as a playmaker. He's now the first player ever to have 10 plus assists in his first four finals game. That's from ESPN stats and info.

And some of the reads he was making with Yokic off the floor, against the trap, cross-court stuff, like pretty complex passes are just not what his reputation is as a player. And there are guys who you blitz and you trap because you think you can catch them sleeping and there are guys you blitz and you trap because you don't want them to have the ball anymore. And that's kind of where the heat are. It's like Murray has been so good. They're just trying to get the ball to go to somebody else. And he has killed them with some of these feats. Easy, easy passes out, hard passes out. He's showing like the full range of what you want, kind of a combo, combo point guard spot to be right now.

Beautifully said, Rob, even when he was drafted, it was this idea that he was this combo guard kind of guy, score first, kind of got, like, that was his reputation, kind of a gunner. Yeah. For a reputation. And the fact that he's developed his floor game into this, this wonderful, you know, ability to set guys up and read three layers of the freaking defense. That's, that's incredible stuff. Credit to him and the work he's done to that end.

I'm old enough to remember when Buddy healed versus Jamal Murray. Oh, my God. It was a debate. To the point where Rob and I talk. about this like twice every year. Yeah, as I say, every six months or so, I'm just, I just remember it again that this was a conversation. And someone on the front lines of that battle who was, was kind of like jabbed at locally for not even picking aside, but suggesting that Murray might have theoretically more upside by not being a college senior and Murray being a college freshman

was ridicule. they strung them up in the town square so magic johnson tweeted this yesterday at the end of the day this final series boils down to the back the nuggets are a more talented team than the heat don't tell you don't tell you don'tas haslin um all right so was are you picking the nuggets

in game five baby wow nuggets in five world champions the team of destiny. Rob, you think the same? I think so. I think that's where we're at. I mean, even just watching the heat hanging their heads come off the court, some of the scenes in that locker room,

I know they're frustrated. I'm sure they're going to come back and fight, but they look like a team that kind of knows they don't have a lot of answers to what the nuggets are dished out. The worst thing that could happen is that the heat win and then they lose in six,

just elongating the series and forcing us to basically pretend like we don't still think that the Nuggets are going to win this series and then like maybe there's a chance those are the worst podcast. So personally I would like to avoid that. So the worst thing that could happen is I go spend three days in Miami.

Honestly, if I were to paint a hell for you, that would be like sort of what it would look like. No, no, no, no. The food is way too good. The food is way too good. Okay. Well, if that happens, I'll buy a cabana hat. All right.

let's uh let's wrap it there i think there are some some bigger questions that we can get into it once the the nugs went about murray and and gordon whatnot um but for today we'll wrap it up thank you to jesse lopez for filling in on production uh thank you to ben cruz for also chiming in from a birthday party for his father-in-law or something like that uh but if you're out there in the streets of the bay say hi to ben we'll be back on wednesday we'll see you