The Ringer NBA Show - Underperforming Superteams, Overperforming Rookies, and the First-Quarter Awards (Ep. 172)

Episode Date: December 6, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor review the Warriors’ eventful night against the New Orleans Pelicans (1:40), debate the roots of the Minnesota Timberwolves’ issues (12:43), laud Donovan Mitchell’s impressive scoring display (37:17), and explore potential trades for DeAndre Jordan (44:31). Then they give out awards for the season thus far (51:46). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com. Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Comment, aka Kevin Obama. Kevin! Vernon! What's going on?

Mr. Los Angeles, I understand. You are in L.A. To be determined. I am in L.A. right now. Are you moving? Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens. I could be.

You like the sun? Yeah. I love the sun, man. You know, there's a lot of people out here that'd be like, oh, you know, I wish there were four seasons. It's like, no, man, you don't want three feet of snow. You just don't. I hope you don't lose your edge, Kevin. I'd hate for you to move to Los Angeles and lose your edge.

Next thing I know you're surfing. I got a lot of steps to move my way up to surfing, that's for sure, when it comes to the water. Okay. All right. Let's talk about what's been going on in the NBA. the story of last night was you have this, you have this situation where the pelicans are up big on the Warriors at half time. They end up losing that game,

but the two biggest stories that come out, one which was less big than the other, Kevin Durant getting thrown out for a third time, a third ejection, unbelievably, but more importantly, Stephen Curry going down with which what a lot of people thought was a big scare when he turns his ankle, as we know at the beginning of his career, he had had real ankle problems.

But the ankle gets hurt last night. Who knows how long Golden State, at least as time of recording for us, is going to be without Steph Curry. But thoughts on what we take away from that taking place last night and what the warriors in their current form will look like if they have to make it without Curry for some time, which you'd imagine they will, considering he was on. crutches last night and they usually don't do that for fun. My reaction when that happened last night, Chris, was pretty much when Michael Scott was just like, no, no, no, seeing Steph Curry after the game on crutches. That was disappointing, man.

I mean, it reminded me in a way of like a couple years back or more than a couple years back when he was just having ankle injury after ankle injury. That's the way it looked. And it just seems like it the type of thing that hopefully it doesn't linger. That's the concern. I mean, if he gets to 100%, ultimately, I mean, really, what does it matter if he gets to 100%? But if this becomes a lingering issue or just kind of restarts ankle issues for him, that's scary, right? Because I think anybody who watches Golden State will say, obviously, Katie and Steph Curry are the most important pieces on that offense.

You could argue Draymond is more important than them overall when you've considered defense. But look, Steph is a guy that really makes that team happen. Him and Katie. So if you lose him for a time in the regular season, it doesn't matter. But going into the playoffs, if anything happens with his ankles, then it's concerning. But right now, I'm not too worried about it. I would say that in terms of just with the way that team is constructed, in terms of guys they could least afford to lose for the long run or for an extended amount of time, Draymont to me is the clear number one. overall in terms of important?

Given what else they have in the front court. Is Dre really like number one? Yes. In terms of importance? When I said that, I was almost thinking like, oh, shit, I shouldn't have said that. No. They lose their edge without him. I don't think he's one, but I can see why people would make that point.

You're right. He has the edge, the intangibles, and defense is so damn important. Let's not get over obsessed with scoring. I mean, I'd put Steph and Katie one and two easily over Dreem on, but at the same time, I can understand the point. Because here's the thing. Let me make the argument. I believe this wholeheartedly that he's the one they cannot lose.

And the reason I believe that is because he brings things to the table that I do not believe are easily replaced by the others. In the end, if Kevin the rant goes down, yes, you are taking some rebounding off the table and you are taking some and you're certainly taking scoring off the table. but it's not as if Steph Curry and Clay Thompson cannot take more shots right

like that they can do that and they did we saw them without Kevin Durant for an extended amount of time last year and they were just fine it is what Draymond brings to the table in terms of being that heart and soul

of the team the heartbeat of the team as well as like I said all that intangible is the fire the defensive tenacity to being able to switch and guard everybody from guards all the way to Biggs. You don't have anybody else on the roster that can do that. At least a percentage of what you lose from the other guys. Katie can.

He did it in the playoffs last season, though. Katie, when they put him at the five, I know he's not going to be able to do it for the minutes over 30 minutes per game like Draymond does. But Katie did show that he can at least play some five for you. I mean, I forget the quote exactly, but Draymond Green said something along the lines of, you know in game four or five i want to say i forget when it was exactly but he said you know

when i'm off the floor it's not often that you have a better backup center and he was referring to kevin durant and and that's kind of what golden state's able to do in playoff situations but you know you're right like you do you do lose a lot because you're not going to play kd at the five for 35 minutes per game um but i think maybe like then you do have jordan bell kvonne lune Javille McGee, you can play those guys to kind of replenish what you might lose if Draymond were theoretically out. Well, and with Steph, you know, if we're just talking the, if we're just talking the traditional numbers, it's 26 points, it's five rebounds, it's six and a half assists every night. Very, very difficult to replace, especially given the percentages that he shoots from the field and from three point range. I mean, he does it efficiently.

And, I mean, those are all real numbers, 26, 5, and 6 and a half that obviously they are without. And somebody's got to pick up the slack on those. Oh, for sure. And, I mean, that's going to be the interesting thing here. I mean, maybe you'll see Kevin Durant take on a little bit more playmaking. Maybe you'll see Clay continue to do more of it. Andre Aguadal, obviously, will get elevated old Sean Livingston as well. It's an interesting wrinkle for the season.

I just hope Steph's able to get back healthy. I hope that they're extremely patient with his injury, regardless of how long he's supposed to be out. Get him to 100%. Because the last thing you want is for this to be an issue that flares up again at the end of the regular season, because that would be the worst possible scenario for them. But I'm not – I don't know. I'm not too worried about it. I mean, do you kind of feel the same as I do where it's like, yes, it sucks now for Golden State.

And maybe for other teams, it's like, great, it's a little bit more interesting. But for Golden State, it's really just about getting him to 100% or as close as humanly possible. I would say my initial reaction is that if they are without him for an extended amount of time, they will not win at some kind of insane clip as they usually do. And that that would be great news for Houston, who has recently looked rather unstoppable. And maybe in the end, it is a, I don't want to say meaningless, But it is, it's a one seed, but it's like Boston having the one seed last year. Like in the end and having the one seed instead of Cleveland didn't make all that much difference.

Whereas Houston's way better though. No, but you do wonder what you do, you do wonder if it makes, if that would make a radical difference in the end. If you said we're going to look up at the end of the year and let's just say San Antonio is not in that mix, even though I believe that. they could absolutely be in that mix. But let's say they're not. Let's say they're not. That's the other thing too. All right.

So right now, Kev, here's the two things on this. All right. Number one, the one seed. And does that even matter? Because, I mean, we have seen, I mean, we've seen the Warriors get beat with literally the highest stakes on their home floor. We saw Houston with their season on the line get absolutely. bludgeoned by a Coilis San Antonio Spurs team.

So it is hard for me to say home court advantage is what's going to decide this. But I do think for either of those two teams, it appears to me that if you get the one seed, now unlike any year we have seen in, I don't know how long, your draw is going to be infinitely easier because whoever gets that two or the three, in my opinion, will face San Antonio. And that's what they're going to have to get through in that second round. Whenever they move on to that second round. I mean, as of today, the four seat is Portland. They're 13 and 10.

They go on a three-game losing streak, which is not out of the question. They would be 500. They've lost two in a row now at the time we're recording. Okay. So the difference between, you know, three and then everybody else, to me, is just so massive that I think that's where it would matter, that if this does dictate who could get the first and the second seed, that the reason that matters is not necessarily home court advantage between those two teams, but rather having to stay away from San Antonio and not meet them until Western Conference finals, rather than in the second round, which is what you would more than likely do if you're two or three. See what I'm saying?

Oh, for sure. And, you know, that's why seating is ultimately, you know, so important. I mean, granted, you know, the actual home court advantage might not matter as much as people think it is. I know Tom Haversstrow wrote an article on ESPN a couple years back, maybe 2015 or 2016, about the decline and home court win percentage. I believe it looked at the regular season, but there might have been some, information on the playoffs as well. And look, I mean, it doesn't matter as much.

But at the same time, I think any edge you get is valuable. And I would also tell you that a night in, night it, but if we just go back to the whole Dremont thing, I get the KD played backup center or whatever. That's not a night in, night out thing. That's a, we're, look who we're playing against thing. We can do this. We can pull this off. And it's just fine.

But night in, night out, you don't want to have to. line him up as a as a five man that's why I think that you know you look up and down that roster and say there ain't really enough there ain't nothing to replace draymond and if the option is hey take our small forward to make him play center you know i mean doesn't leave you a lot anyways hopefully i think uh we're all hopeful that uh step curry is out a little while rather than a long while we have seen now as this season has progressed and we are about 20-something games into it. Mid-20s is what most of these teams have played so far.

Like I said, that massive separation, I believe, that has gone on between San Antonio and then whoever is for. And right now it's like the four-seed Blazers who are 13 and 10 and the five-seed Denver Nuggets, who obviously have lost Paul Millsap, who are 13 and 10. And the Timberwolves who are 14-11, Almost everybody had the Timberwolves as a playoff team this year. I actually got to see them in person last night.

We talked enough about the Grizzlies last week. And Lord knows, they got their first win for ever. It's hard to keep up with every single team in the league and see them enough to really know what's, you can read what people are writing, you can see what fans are saying, you can see what the media is saying, and then you can try to catch whatever you can when you can't. Unless you sacrifice your life. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't see Minnesota all the time.

But getting to see them in person gives you a totally different perspective, I believe, on these teams. And I got that opportunity last night with them. And I was very interested in seeing them because you know that their, their record is not an extremely good one. 14 and 11. I mean, they're about 500. Not bad. Not great. Especially given, listen, they haven't, they haven't sniffed 500.

in a long, long time. And they're on a hell of a playoff drought. That being said, they were going to implement Jimmy Butler into this mix with these guys and Jeff Teague and Todd Gibson. And so I have been, as you know, even with Oklahoma City thing, like, hey, this stuff takes some time. You know, in the end, sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. You know, you might put together Kevin Garnett, Paul Pearson, Ray Allen, and it works

great or LeBron Bosch and Wade and it works great or you might put together Nash Howard and Kobe and it's a debacle right like you just you and and and who knows I mean I guess the jury is still out on how good Oklahoma City can be but this was an interesting one because you had the two young guys that were already there and then you had towns and you will remember and I got some heat last year for saying this but you will remember I was in the you should trade Zach Levine can And this is before he tore his ACL, that when you got two really big time guys or guys that are going to be taking a lot of your shots, I think you want to build around them with role players in order to build that chemistry. After watching them last night, it felt like malpractice what goes on with towns. I would get value for Wiggins.

I watched it and thought I would start with Butler and towns and I'd work from there. Because it reminded me of so many teams I have seen, which is you can, you know, when I talked about replacing things, and if you took Wiggins out of the mix, guess what? That would just mean a lot more touches for towns. You would not believe how many times they went up and down the court and he never touches the ball. It is crazy to me. Once upon a time, I covered a team the year the Grizzlies went through the Western Conference finals, they had to be. Rudy Gay on the wing, and they had, they still have Mike Conley, still had Mark Asol. And they traded Rudy Gay.

And they replaced him with Tashon Prince. And nobody in the free world thought that that was smart, including their coach. Except what it did is it forced Mike Conley and Mark Assault and Zach Randolph, for that matter, to take more shots, all of which were more efficient players. And so it ended up working. The numbers went through the roof. Next thing you know, they're in the Western Conference Finals. And so on the surface, replacing Wiggins with a lesser player would be insane to people. Yet, I actually think that might be the best course of action given their personnel because I'm not sure.

I don't even think it's the players, man. Really? You think it's Tibbs. I think it's all Tibbs. Look, this may come off as kind of a hot take. I don't know. Maybe it does. Maybe it is.

Maybe it doesn't. I would fire him today. What? The dude played an eight-man. rotation on a back to back. An eight-man rotation on three games and four nights for that team. Oh, Jabal played 40 minutes. The amount of minutes is a joke.

Every study about health and recovery in minutes has just been utterly ignored. It's like denying climate change. That's what it's like. Playing these guys for that minutes. Not only that, it's more than that. Yes, you are playing these guys for it a ridiculous amount of minutes. But you know what else you're also doing? you're really disrupting the locker room.

A lot of the guys on that bench who probably deserve to play or thought that they may have been getting opportunity in minutes, especially when there's been injuries. And I think they have, I've heard rumblings that there's some chemistry issues in that locker room, maybe a little bit with guys against towns a little bit because of his effort, maybe a little bit with some of the guys on that bench, unhappy with playing time and opportunity. there's issues there.

And it all, in my opinion, from what I can tell, derives from Tibbs with the usage, with the system, with the opportunity. It's just, I think it's clueless because even when he plays more than eight guys, that ninth guy and that 10th guy are getting four minutes. Like late last month when the Wizards beat the Wolves in Minnesota, the minutes all down the line, Gibson 41, Wiggins 37, Towns 40, Jones 40, Butler 38, Jang 15, Crawford, 16, then Aaron Brooks 8, Shabaz Muhammad, 4. The point is that even those deep bench guys aren't getting consistent. I just think it's insane. It's insane. And as long as that continues, you're reporting your players at risk health-wise, but you're also, I think, harming your locker room and team chemistry.

I just think it's an utter mess. Wow. All right. Well, I'll say this. There is, forget all of the, quote, studies that you were talking about, which I'm know are totally relevant. And if we are going to, on one hand, laud the spurs for the way they do things, you have to be able to criticize the way Tibbs does it. Forget all the like studies and the data that says this and this, which I'm sure that many would, uh, that like Tibbs would

roll their eyes at. How about the landfill of old Chicago Bulls, which are like Derek Rose wants to like friggin quit. Um, Lou Al Deng, like he should be able to be. still viable. X, Bulls. They'd be a pretty bad team now. Jo Kim Noah would be like trying to get a G-League deal. Like it's,

you think that is not that long ago. Yeah, you're right. And they're not old. Like guys like Joaquin Noah, guys like Luw Alding, they should still like have real careers going on. Yeah.

And maybe it's not fair to put it all at the feet of Tibodeau. But it sure is a hell of a coincidence that everybody talked about. running all these guys into the ground and they're all having you know less success later in their career than any would have expected early in their careers. Put it this way

like you think about the players who who lead the league in minutes you know you think LeBron you know DeMarcus cousins you think you would think Wiggins because the wolves you would think guys like Damien Lillard right those names would come to mind you would think Westbrook right you would think even some young guys like

Janice Antenacoumpo those are the guys you would imagine I think it says at all that Minnesota has four guys in the top 10 for total minutes played. Wiggins, Towns, Butler, Taj Gibson. Tash Gibson running him into the ground as well. It's just, I just failed to understand the logic. You watch them. Tage and Jimmy stand out like sore thumbs because they, you know, those guys are real dogs. Gibson's been good.

Don't get me wrong. He's been good. No, no wonder, Tibado loves them. Yeah. But, I mean, those guys are Bulldogs now. They, and when you see them, I think the, I think the expectation was we'll bring those guys in, and that will encourage these other guys. For sure.

These guys that were formerly not Bulldogs, these guys that were formerly not committed to the defensive end, they're going to look over and see those guys, and it's going to bring the best out of them. And that does not happen. At least with Towns it has I think Wiggins has been better Overall defensive When I watch the last I turned I turned to the guy sitting next to me

And I said man they are soft Yeah Both of them Like they're not about this I mean that you can muscle them around And they don't want to get in the mix And they're not trying like that That game was

That's a nip tuck game And you see what guys are made of Right when it comes down the stretch And I just It was bizarre And I'll say this on the Towns thing. Part of it, I believe, because I'm, I, Wiggins to me's got a lot of the Rudy Gay stuff in him, right? Exceptionally talented player.

I'm not sure that you're ever going to get the fierce competitor side out of him. And I just felt a little too cool for school, right? Um, towns, I am more, uh, I'm more willing to make excuses for. And part of it is because I think you see this a lot with big guys. And that is if you don't get them involved and you don't give them touches and they're just running 94 feet after 94 feet, you like they can become disengaged. and the more usually that they are involved offensively, the more engaged they will be defensively. And you can use that as a demerit, but it's true.

And I think back most of the times, if you ever see me at games and anybody ever flips on the games, a lot, most of the games I sit next to Tayshan Prince, who works as a liaison with the Grizzlies. And I listened, he obviously played forever. He was on the... He was a terrific player. Yeah, he was terrific player, great role player. He was also on that Pistons team that won the title. And I think for every NBA fan out there, this will be an interesting thing that always keep in mind. And for yourself too, Kev, because it was for me.

And that is he talked about getting guys like these big guys engaged in games. And he said that when he played for these old Pistons teams, he said, if you go back and watch, he said, the beginning of the game and then in the at coming out of half time that they would throw the ball to ben wallis the beginning of the game they run the play for him for ben and they didn't care if he threw it over the fucking backboard they didn't care if he drove and threw it up under the rim they didn't care what he did you go like they're throwing the ball of him to do whatever you want and all and he would like he'd be crazy engaged he'd rebound he'd block shots he'd do everything But they would always do that at the beginning of the game and the beginning of the half, right?

So that the game doesn't get started and all of a sudden you look up and he hasn't touched him. Straight possessions because it's all Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups and Rashid Wallace and whoever else. So they'd get him to touch early. And in fact, he even said, and I've been meaning to check this out, he said, Tashon's story was, if you go back and watch the year they won the finals, they played against that Lakers team. had Gary Payton and Carl Malone and whatnot and Kobe and Shaq, obviously. And he said, I think it was game five, he said. I can't recall.

I think it was game five. And he said that they, I think they won the series in five. He said at the very beginning of the game, if you ever see it on ESPN Classic or wherever it was, they get the tip, they come down the court, they throw it to Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace faces up on Shaq and like, it's like an 18-footer. and he said the arena like the friggin roof comes off like absolute pandemonium and he's like all of them looked at each other and was like this shit is over like it was just like it was it was what was and and ben wallace had like whatever it was it was like something like you know 18 points of 21 rebounds or some five blocks something crazy but the the whole premise is and and ben was obviously a more limited offensive player than a lot of these guys. But you always got to pay attention with big guys. And I saw this happen with Dwight a lot in Houston.

If they don't touch the ball, they may not, like, you may lose them. And I kind of felt that. Towns took six friggin shots at the game I was at last night. It's crazy. I mean, he's one of the best offensive centers in basketball. I mean, to, you know, Tashon's point and to your point, that's true. I mean, we've heard coaches talk about that. I believe Steve Kerr talked about that.

I don't know if it was on Bill's Pod or some other interview, but multiple coaches have mentioned. You know, when guys get touches, when the ball is getting shared offensively, you're more inspired to defend at the highest level you can because everybody likes to get a touch, right? I think that's kind of human nature in some ways when it's being shared, right? The responsibility is shared when leadership is deferred throughout the team. And that's the issue kind of with ISO ball with Westbrook kind of pounding the air out of last season with Oklahoma City and to an extent.

But that's kind of beside the point. I agree that with Towns, he deserves more touches. I still think it's mostly due to minutes. I think you are demanding so much that, yes, you could say, well, maybe Carl Anthony Towns needs to get into better conditioning so he can handle a 35-minute per game workload. Maybe that's true. And you know what? The team should account for that and not play him that long.

I think maybe you can get more out of Carl Anthony Towns if you're playing him for 30 minutes per game more so than you do for playing him for 35 minutes per game. I just think everything they're doing is completely twisted. I think they have more than enough talent. You're right. They have some flawed personnel on that team and their roster contract is kind of whack, but they still have some talent. Like Shabazz Muhammad is not a bad player.

You have a guy who excelled last year in the G League in Marcus George's Hunt. who I think deserves at least an extended look, deserves a little bit of an opportunity. And these guys aren't getting it at all. You have a G-leager and Anthony Brown who is killing it this year. No opportunity, even when you call him up on his two-way contract. No opportunity despite the fact that injuries have opened up those chances. Instead, he just trims the rotation. That's really my whole issue here.

It's like, you are just running these guys into the ground, and it's barely December right now. Save this heavy workload for the playoffs. I think all these are issues. The minutes is an issue. The personnel is an issue. And what does it point back to? It points back to Tibbs. That's really the root problem here.

Defensively, it's personnel, Kev. It just isn't. And that's tips. Because, yes, there is a limit to how good you can possibly be defensively. Look, you know, if any really good defensive team, look at who their point guard is, look who their center is. Right? Because you've got the front line of the defense. and the back line of the defense.

Because if you've got a point guard that can consistently get beat off the dribble, it just breaks down everything and sends everybody scrambling all the time. And the answer that they have is Jeff Teague up top. And Carl Towns down low. And so you face virtually no resistance on either end. Even Jamal Crawford, another negative defender.

Town should be way better than he is. I mean, that's kind of a captain obvious statement right here. but he was a really good defender in college at Kentucky. And I wrote about this a couple weeks back where it's like all the flaws that he had then when it came to decision making, when it came to like biting for pump fakes, falling into foul trouble, losing focus off ball. All those were issues for him in college. And the fact that they still are, the tough part to know is like is that due to his inability

to pick up on new concepts? Is it due to the fact that he's still young and he still needs to get adjusted to the speed and making reads on defense? Or is it maybe perhaps due to the fact that he's tired on that end of the floor? Maybe it's all three. And chances are it probably is all three to an extent. It's just disappointing because it's so interesting looking back when Flip Saunders at the time introduced towns. He mentioned how he's a guy who could transform their defense. And that's kind of been the opposite of what happened.

Townsby has become a star scorer and a poor defender. In year three, his defense has not gotten any better. And that's scary, whereas all those other guys have gotten better on the defensive end of the floor. Prozingis still isn't necessarily great. I mean, he's great defensively, but he's much better than Towns is on that end. And Giannisthenacupo, oh my God, he is unbelievable on defense. That team should be better than it is. Minnesota.

Yes, them and Milwaukee. Milwaukee. Yeah, yeah. And guess what? Some of the issues go to both coaches, Jason Kidd and Tom Thibodeau. Old school guys, too. Jason Kidd, I know the article I wrote on the ringer yesterday about the Bucks, and that I mentioned he didn't change the scheme. And really, what I mean is that they made some adjustments in that Portland game where they played more conservatively.

But overall, ever since they got Eric Bledso, they have. haven't changed the scheme. They haven't completely overdone everything. They haven't overhauled what they were doing. They're still blitzing at the beginning of games to, I think, an extent that gets them in trouble. They're still doing that way too much. They need to play more conservatively.

I think the solutions are kind of not obvious with Milwaukee, but the solutions are there that should at least be experimented with. And they are starting to do that a little bit more over the past week. So with them, hopefully, hopefully with Milwaukee, you see them start to play a little bit more conservatively on defense. And then hopefully with Minnesota, at some point, hopefully, Tibito, someone needs to have an intervention with him, like, play these guys. I mean, you're having old school coaches with new school players.

It's interesting to think about in both conferences, given the way that these teams have played at least thus far through the 20-something games, it's totally possible that these teams that are like 5 through 8 could, I know that Bill for many years talked about, you know, Could you in the playoffs series have the best guy on the court? And it's totally possible that like the lower seeds, Joe L. M. B. could be the best player on the floor in a playoff game against anybody. Janus could be the best player in a playoff game against anybody.

John Wall could be the best player in a playoff game. Poor Zingis if they were able to get there, right? And then even in the West, Carl Towns or a Jimmy Butler or Anthony Davis or Boogie, you know, if the Pelicans could get there. Obviously, Oklahoma City, at least right now, they're not a top four seed. So I think in this bizarre way, you could have a lot of these teams, at least the way it's shaking out now, that are bottom four seeds in either conference, which very well may have the best player on the floor in the series. Now, their team may not be as good, but like if that's, if that does matter, that that could be the case.

And I think that's part of why we're saying that these teams may have underwhelmed us a little bit. Like they underwhelm a little bit. But in the end, like, dude, Russell Westbrook might be playing like as a, you know what I mean? Like a bottom four seed in the playoffs. And same with Embed and same with Porzingis and same with Janus and same with Carl Towns or Jimmy Butler. I mean, a lot of talent spread out now. You know, like you can try so hard and get so far. But in the end, it doesn't even matter.

Oh, God. Is that your tribute, your homage to Chester? I mean, you said. Rest in peace. Yeah, you said in the end, so the song just came to mind. Rest in peace, Chester. I got it in my head right now. Let me touch on a couple other things before.

We've got to give out our quarter season awards or who we would vote for now. At the beginning of the season, you wrote early in the season that, like, hey, yeah, this magic team is way, better than we ever thought they would be, but you got to take a deep dive into their stats and realize that the whole damn team is shooting like 70% from three. Right. So there's one thing to have regression to the mean. They have like bottomed out. Like we all thought Orlando was going to suck.

And then it started the season and they didn't suck. And now you look up and guess what? They suck. Right. I got to correct you on one thing, Chris. They were actually shooting over 9,000 percent from three. I know. They were.

Like I remember looking at it. It was like Aaron Gordon was shooting like 65% from three on like high volume. I was like, wait, okay. That's not sticking. Right. But they have really bottomed out. The flip side is Charlotte is the thing that beat him last night. Dwight has not been bad.

He's been pretty good. He's pretty good, man. He's pretty good. I'm enjoying Dwight. He's, um, he's, he's somebody who, I know a lot of people love to root against him for obvious reasons, but at the same time, it's nice seeing Dwight play well. I mean, he had that crossover and escapes me who it was against last week.

He had a crossover from the left block where he just quick crossover right into a dunk and I was like, ah, vintage Dwight Howard. It was just beautiful to watch that. It's been fun. I mean, Charlotte's fine. They're a good team. It's nice having Baton back. hopefully for them they can kind of get back to where maybe people will expect them to be as a six-seven seed but ultimately it's just been fun watching dwight i wish we saw more malik monk that's that's one disappointment i have with that team here's the weird thing for so many years whether they had a really good team or not you could find that a utah team or a denver team that these teams would have really good home records and then their road record wouldn't be nearly as good right but that's

That is not how we have viewed Charlotte and they have the craziest situation. They are eight and three in home games. They are one in ten on the road. Hmm. Wow. They're one in ten away from Charlotte. I don't think we've ever considered the home court advantage in Charlotte to be, right? Like insurmountable.

Yet they have this like really good home record. One in ten. You know who's been really good for that team? Jeremy Lamb. He's really taken a step up. for that team. And I think in a way, what he's doing is probably what a lot of people expected Malik Monk

to do as a rookie. Like 15 points a game, you know, spacing the floor. His 3-point percentage has dropped a little bit over the past week or so. But Jeremy Lamb's been really good. I hope at some point they begin integrating Malik Monk for his scoring off the bench rather

than Michael Carter Williams, who really is a zero on offense, who's exclusively in there for his defense. I've always kind of felt bad for Jeremy Lamb because it is his fault that he was put in that stupid-ass James Hardin trade. You know, the expectation at the time was, wow, maybe they would have gotten a, you know, like maybe they got a big steal in Lamb. And he wasn't that, right?

And they were never going to get the proper value for James Harden. But I think at the time there was this expectation like maybe he could grow into something extremely special. And then when he, I thought that was quite a burden, you know, to be the young, guy with all the potential in the hardened trade. And it's turned out, yeah, he's not, he ain't on some kind of, you know, all-star or superstar level, but he's pretty damn good. Definitely solid.

You know who else has been good, Chris Vernon? Who? Don't tell me. I'm like a hipster when it comes to Donovan Mitchell now, right? I was there before all y'all. I was, I mean, like now y'all like Donovan Mitchell? It's like that one indie band that you discovered before everyone else. Yeah.

Like now you're like, oh, you started liking the bare naked ladies when one week came out, huh? Right? Or when, you know, when, oh, you know hook by blues travel. Like, I've been listening to Blues Traveler for like 20 years, right? Oh, really? Now you're a fan of Chance the rapper. I saw him in concert. Yeah.

Went on his first American tour in 2013. Back in his mixed tape days. Acid rap. I saw, right. I saw acid rap. No, but Donovan Mitchell. So once upon a time, Kevin, we were in Las Vegas for Summer League. And that was all in on Donovan Mitchell.

In fairness, I happened to see him two or three different times. One of which was in this Jazz Grizzly Summer League game. The guy has like 38 points and no shit like 10 steals. It looked like somebody had taken a 10-time NBA All-Star and just like, thrown him in the middle of a summer league game. He was so much better than everybody else. It was ridiculous. Like, I mean, it was like, it was seriously like if you said, hey,

uh, hey Kobe, go play in that summer league game. And it was like, okay, this guy is just so much better than everybody else out here. It's embarrassing. He was just like ripping the ball away from people like Kauai. And then he was scoring every damn time he touched the ball, going to the rack, knocking down threes. So I may have seen like the greatest game the kids ever played. But I walked out of that arena and I'm like, Jesus.

Like I mean, because everybody was already buzzing about Tatum. Everybody was already buzzing about Dennis Smith Jr. from Dallas. But this Mitchell was out of his mind. And I remember tweeting out at the time, I was happy for Utah fans because it was so crushing when they lost Hayward, right? Yeah. But like, hey, here's the new guy to buy the jersey of. Here's some new hope, and I'll be damned if he, he's like, he's now teetering on must-see TV, because I think we all thought it was going to be Dennis Smith every night that we would see the, you know, the videos come across.

You know, every night when you're just scrolling through Twitter and the highlight videos come through, it feels like every damn night I'm seeing a friggin Donovan Mitchell won. I had Mitchell ranked 10th in the ringer's NBA draft guide, and I'm looking back at that and I'm like, damn, like, why, you know, why don't I have him even higher? Like, 10 was pretty high, you know, compared to what a lot of people had him. And it's like, I'm just looking back. I'm like, you know, self-assessing, why did I not have him ahead of Malik Munk? Why did I not have him ahead of Frank Nilekeena?

You know, what was my, what was the logic behind that, you know, looking back? And it's, and it's frustrating in a way. And, you know, I'm sure teams do this, you know, to an even greater extent. Like, why did we not? What did we miss in him? I mean, Nuggets traded him on draft night. Yeah. I mean, with Denver, it's like, from what I've heard is they traded.

down hoping to still get OGN and Obie. That's the guy that they wanted according to people that I've talked to. And I guess they just missed out Toronto, took him one pick before. It was a calculated risk. They shouldn't have done it, you know, in hindsight. I get it. And I had a guy. I goofed on them trading down right.

And I was like, try to explain that. And I had a guy hit me up on Twitter last week. And he was like, yeah, well, they already had so. And they already had this and they already that. And I'm like, listen, hey, you know what they need? They need talent. And I'm telling you that once upon a time, the Portland Trailblazers looked and said, we already got a two guard in Clyde Drexler.

We don't need Jordan. Right? So they took a big guy. Right. Like, I'm not saying this guy, you just passed on Jordan, but I am saying. Donovan Mitchell is going to be the goat, not LeBron James. I'm just saying you can't trade that shit for Trey Liles. Yeah, Tray Liles.

I mean, Tray Liles is solid. But I get the risk that they took, but they shouldn't have done it. If you want the guy, whether it's O.G. Inanovi or Mitchell, whoever it was that they actually wanted there, just take the guy there. I don't think Liles is enough to risk losing him, especially, like, I heard rumblings that Toronto wanted O'G and Anovi. So it wasn't really much of a surprise that they got him at that point. I just didn't think O.G. would slide that far. It's crazy in that range. You think about, you think about guys around the league, Paul George, Kauai Leonard. For sure. I mean, this kid looks like, you're talking like that teen range. You've had, we have. We have. We have. have had some like not stars but like in this kid again not crying i'm a superstar yet but if you you i mean this is the stock to have is this kid because if he doesn't become an NBA all star i will be stunned i mean he's already awesome already and he's got everything he's got like

the athleticism he shoots the hell out of the ball he can dunk on anybody he's just we're going to see like at what level his shooting really is I mean, I think that, I love Mitchell. You know, I'm a, like you, I love Mitchell, but just to play devil's advocate here, I mean, we do need to find out what level of a shooter he really is. Ball handling still needs to improve, you know, more. But certainly, the start he's on confirms a lot of the positives that we saw prior to the draft. And ultimately, that's the most important thing that he's defending, that he's been pretty good in pick and roll, that he's able to drive. to the rim and transition and the half court

that he is shooting at a good level. All of that's great. And it's remarkable to see him doing it. Anybody could go back and listen to the episodes we did in Summer League talking about him. And I recall I told two different stories about an NBA scout that I was talking to there when you're talking about the shooting.

That Rick Petino told him that's the best shooter he's ever had and that when the scout went to their practice, when he went there, He went to go check out a Louisville practice that after the practice, Donovan Mitchell walked up to him, introduced himself, and then asked him, what do I need to work on for the next level? And he was like, I was just blown away. Like, you kids don't do that. Like evidently, everything you heard about the kid was great. And then he was obviously playing his ass off.

And so he's an unbelievable kid too. Yep. You know, great kid. Awesome kid. I feel happy for a jazz. And by the way, we thought the jazz were dead without Gobert. So we owe them a big apology because they have kicked the shit out of like six teams now. And Gobert's coming back too.

He came back last night. Yeah, that's right. He came back last night. Yeah. In the last, like in the last like two weeks, Kevin, they've beaten like six teams by like 30-something points. Last night they won by 47. They're blasting them. They've embarrassed quite a few teams now at the Utah Jazz.

So big credit to them. And obviously, kudos to Daven Mitchell. One other thing on NBA news that I do want to touch on you real quick is we had spoken about, you know, you were ready to blow the clippers up after the Blake injury. Gallinari, they sent down to the G League. They're going to try to get him some action. The DeAndre stuff has come up to the forefront and that he could be a guy that could get moved somewhere possibly or that he would be interested, maybe, in getting moved somewhere. What do you think? I have a trade proposal for you.

Would you do this trade if you're Milwaukee and if you're the LA Clippers? It's DeAndre Jordan for Jabari Parker, John Henson, and a lottery protected 20-20 first-round pick from the Bucks, which would convey two years after the 2018 pick that they're currently already sending out. So it would probably be 2020. Would you do that trade if you're the Bucks or the Clippers? I would not do it if I'm the Bucs. But you would if you're the Clippers. Yes. Okay.

So why winners you do it if you're the bucks? Because I don't have that high opinion of DeAndre Jordan. We're on the same page. This is boring. I was hoping you would be like, yes, I would do it. I mean, listen, I've seen too many coaches have to take them off. Like when the stakes get the highest. Yeah.

You got to take him off the damn court. Look, he would help their defense. He would absolutely help their defense. And maybe it's a gamble that they should take. But you know what? I wouldn't take it because Jabari's great. With the way the NBA is being played right now, You can't render him useless.

He is not a guy that is going to pummel you offensively no matter what. Like that's not happening. No doubt. And he's also going to get fouled every damn time down the stretch. So he becomes a demerit, right? And then defensively, you got so many guys that are now playing five that are standing maybe 18 feet from the basket. And the problems that plagued the clippers for years with spacing issues. with Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan also would apply to the bucks.

You know, you're taking space away from Yannis, and Yannis can shoot threes better than Blake could for the past four or five years or so, but he's still not a great three-point shooter. So they would have severe spacing issues on the offensive and the floor. The tweaks need to come internally. The league has really gone the wrong way on these guys, like the D'Andreys and the Dwight's. I mean, you can still play those guys.

though I mean look at the rockets you need you need to put him in the right role that's what it needs to be but Capella can switch on to anybody Capella can stay in front of guards DeAndre can't too to an extent he's a and Capella's a rim runner like that's kind of way but he is like a he's fast and he can fly up and down the court and he's not a garbage free throw shooter either he used to be but he's not anymore he's not a garbage free throw shooter and I just feel like the league has gone away from these guys that cannot dribble cannot pass, cannot shoot. I can't believe this slander against my guy, DJ.

I can't believe it. I can't believe it. Can you at least give me one of the skills, like pass, dribble, or shoot? Like one of them? He can defend, man. He can do it. He can defend. That's what he's good at.

This is an NBA jam. What would you feel comfortable giving for DJ? Or would you just not even want him at all? Because the one factor that gets overlooked with him, and with a lot of trade conversations for that matter, is money, contracts. And with DeAndre Jordan, like, sure, if you're the Cavaliers, if you're a cavaliers fan, you can say, oh, it'd be great to trade Tristan Thompson in the Nets pick for DeAndre Jordan. Well, first of all, it wouldn't be nice. But second of all, it's like, yes, you're paying

DeAndre Jordan $35 million a max contract rather than paying Thompson what he gets around 16 or 17, I believe. The money is significant. And I would just rather, if I'm the bucks, invest in whatever Parker's going to cost you. I'm just not crazy about the what he brings to the table for me when the stakes are the highest, Kev. Like, I mean, if I'm playing Boston or I'm playing Cleveland or I'm playing Houston or I'm playing Golden State, like, okay. So if I'm playing San Antonio, I want him. Those other four, I mean. Yeah, I'm with you.

I don't really care. And he could walk this summer. Yeah, he could walk. Yeah, there's no guarantees that he would ever re-up, you know? Yeah. I think if you're trading for him, you probably have an idea of what he's going to do. do, but at the same time, there's never any guarantees. That's why, by the way, I think it's outrageous.

People are devaluing that Nets pick and thinking that Cleveland should ever put that on the table for DeAndre Jordan. That is desperate if you're giving that up. You don't need to do that. You really don't. If anything, what Cleveland needs to do is start thinking about building a sustainable winner. And the way to do that is if they're able to add a really good young player in a rookie contract who can turn into something in a couple of years or even as a rookie, that's what you need to, I think, be appealing to LeBron, not a $35 million center who can't stay on the floor at the end of games.

All right, Kevin, we're going to take a quick break when we come back. We're going to give our quarter season awards, MVP, coach of the year. Oh, yeah. All of the awards, as we are about, we're a little over a quarter of the way through this season. So we'll give it our awards on the other side after these words. Today's podcast brought you by ZipRecruiter. What if hiring could be easier, more streaming. streamlined and less time consuming. So even when you're busy, you could still be smart about the way you hire.

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Download the Seat Geek app and enter the promo code Ringer NBA today. All right, Kev, we're not going to give out every single award, but we are going to give out the three major ones, which are MVP, rookie of the year, and coach of the year. And this is, I'll tell you that Tim Bondemps from the Washington Post reached out to me over the weekend. And it was kind of doing a straw poll of who the MVP was as of right now. And he made me give him five guys. You want me tell you who my five were? Yes, sir.

Please do. This is what I gave. He said he wanted me to do it in order. And this, because I liked him, I actually put some. thought into it. All right. This was my list, one through five, and this is not at the end of the season what I think's going to happen.

This is, if I'm giving the award right now, what is my ballot? Hardin, LeBron, Kyrie, Curry, Yannis. That's what I did. Mine to Tim was Hardin, LeBron, Janus, Durant, Curry. And I think I would tweak that slightly and put Kyrie. at four or five, I'm not sure. But Kyrie's really exploded on offense recently. So we agree on Hardin, though.

Hardin LeBron won two. Oh, okay. And I also think that there's going to be, there's certainly the sentiment that carries over from last year. I know they've got the best record right now anyway, but there were a lot of people, yourself included, to believe that Hardin was worthy of that award last year. Should have won it.

Yeah, should have won it instead of some double digit award or whatever. Oh, stop already. Come on, it's true. Come on. The Russell hates a little extreme. Someone, I forget who it was, said if Russell Westbrook had like 9.9 instead of 10, he wouldn't win. That says everything you need to know about that. That's ridiculous, too.

There was some stat recently, and I forget the player. But it was an interesting stat. It was actually a really cool stat from ESPN stats on Twitter, and it was something like, oh, yeah, it was James Hardin. It was, he fell short of becoming the first player since who. whoever it was. I think it might have been like Oscar Robertson to average 35 points and 10 rebounds, 10 assists in a month, whatever it was. And it's like, great.

He had 9.9. What a failure. He didn't do it. But he might be the first to ever to average 35 and 9.9 since him. It's just, it's silly how round numbers matter. It is also silly that your presumptive MVP last year took a gigantic shit with his entire season on the line. Yeah, but then we're talking about the playoffs.

It's a regular season award It's an MVP It's a regular season award Oh stop Listen We're like office ends in the spectrum here What I'm talking about winning Winning winning

I'm talking about playoffs Is all it matters When we're talking about awards Playoffs are irrelevant It doesn't matter at all And if it does matter I don't know how it could matter Because votes are cast

Before the playoffs begin I want to I want to all right fine I just want to remind you, Kevin, that Kevin Durant agreed with me at how shitty that Oklahoma City team was without Russell Westbrook. Yeah. Katie.

Katie does agree. I'm glad we know that. So me and Kevin Durant are on the same page. And that's why I believed Russell Westbrook was deserving. Not because of the round numbers, but because I believe that team was trash without him. and he is the only reason that they were played. That team would have been much better than a 47 win team if Russell Westbrook was more willing to play off ball

if Russell Westbrook was more willing to play defense. If Billy Donovan were able to install his system, that team would have been better than it was. You can knock the talent if you want to. It wasn't great, but it wasn't horrific either. And by the way, if we're talking playoffs, the Oklahoma City Thunder lost to the Rockets in the first round four to one. So did you see Westbrook lay down?

Why are we talking about the playoffs? It's irrelevant. We're talking to what awards. You're a Russ hater. I'm not a Russ hater. Let me say this, okay? Let me say that. I got to say this.

I'm not a Russ hater, Chris. Russ is a remarkable player who has developed into a superstar. He has really turned so many of his weaknesses into strengths and enhanced many of his strengths into even greater strengths. He is unfriken believable. He's a Hall of Famer. He's one of the best talents we have. And when I knock him or others knock him, really in my eyes, it's just a testament to how great he is and how much, how he's constantly gotten better and knowing that there's still another level.

There's still more. So the fact like I and other, whoever else, you know, are asking more of him, I don't think you'd be asking that of another player. But you do ask it of Westbrook because of how great he's become because you know there's more there. You know there's that he's capable of more. So it's not a knock. It's not being a hater. It's like, this dude can be even better than he already is. It's a desire for more out of him.

Like LeBron James, if somebody knocked his shooting, guess what? He improved his free throw shooting and his three-point percentage this season. And guess what? He's even better than he was before. It's really about asking for more from people that I think that's fair to ask more from. Me and you are on the same page when it comes to hard. You know what? I'm changing my ballot.

I've got Westbrook one. They're terrible. They're 10 and 12. Without them, they would be 0 and 22, right? Is that what you're saying? That team would have been a lot better, though, if Ola Depot were able to get more opportunity last year. I don't know, man.

They could have been better. So, ball and us were able to get more opportunity. That team would have been better. Look at those guys on the Pacers now, man. They're thriving. Yep. You also wonder if they would have been better if they would not have made. I know this sounds crazy, but if they had not have made the Carmelo acquisition.

Because they have, it is one thing to try to fit all those three guys together and have them be great simultaneously, right? We knew that was always going to be a challenge. But I think what we didn't discuss enough was what was going to be the impact that it had on the rest of that roster. And frankly, the rest of that roster is horrendous. Once you get past Stephen Adams, like, I mean, you know, I was a Patrick Patterson fan. He has been as bad as you, like, G League level bad. You have nothing.

It's Jeremy Grant, Raymond Felton, Roberson, Alex Abrams, Dakari Johnson, Paterson, Josh Houston, Nick Collison, I mean, come on. Like, I mean, they got no depth, none. So would you be better off? What was it? Who else they give up besides Enos? Dougie Fresh, Doug McDermott. I think I'd rather have that, huh?

I don't know. In terms of fit. I'd rather have mellow. I still think it's, they're capable of more. In terms of fit? They're capable of more that team. Will it come? I don't know.

Maybe Paul George leaves. Maybe Paul George leaves. and Carmelo decides to opt out and get a longer-term contract and then they're right back to where they begin, except in a worse spot. Maybe that happens, but I still, I wouldn't give up on this team at all. They have a heck of a lot of time. Oh, I'm not giving up on them. I'm just saying that their depth is trash. It's maybe a little bit, it's not good.

But Patrick Patterson can kind of could get better than he is now. Oh, no. No, listen, I was, I'm the biggest Patterson fan in the world. I thought that was a huge steal and an amazing signing. And I am so done with him. He has been atrocious. All right. Coach of the year.

All right. So we both give Hardin the MVP. Coach of the year. Brad Stevens. Brad Stevens. Yeah, Brad Stevens. No doubt. It's a bloodbath too, right?

Between Brad Stevens, Brad Stevens or Brad Stevens. Yeah, I mean, I guess you probably get some, it might be some Stan van love. I mean, if you're talking about who is. I mean. Yeah. Pop of it should. too? Yeah, yeah, sure. He'll get some votes. I'd be surprised if Brad didn't win that award unless the team falls off a cliff, but Brad Stevens easily should be. And then rookie of the year,

I think as of today, you've got to give it to Simmons, right? But this could be a blood war there at the end because Tatum has been out of his mind shooting from three. Donovan Mitchell has taken this massive step up in the last two weeks. You obviously, like, Lonzo has played like crap but you never would it surprise you if we look up and maybe for the month of february lonso has like an amazing month like i wouldn't be shocked by that i wouldn't for sure i mean you know it's simmons and it's remarkable what he's doing without being able to shoot the ball it's it's kind of like what i said about westbrook like westbrook you know is capable of more with simmons like the whole thing with you know his shooting handedness it's like he's so great already

it's really just a testament to his greatness as a rookie. You know that he's already maybe a top 25 player in the league so far this season, right? He might not be if you consider past performance, but so far the season, he's a top 25, top 30 guy. And that's only at 21 years old without being able to shoot the ball, shooting with the wrong hand. It's fascinating. He's been exciting to watch. If anything, it's almost more interesting who's going to be the second or third guy for rookie of the year, whether it's Tatum or Mitchell or Kuzma.

Oh, wow, I forgot about Kuzma. We got some good-ass rookies, man, don't we? That Dennis Smith, what if Dennis Smith, you know, explodes, right? He could come on strong, right, more so than he already is. It is wild because you got to remember, I mean, you take a step back. No, I mean, no disrespect to the guy because I think he's a really, you know, he's a nice NBA piece to have. but like Malcolm Brogden

would not have broke the top five this year. I know. There's no way. This class is awesome. This class is, I'm talking about what rookie at the year. I'm talking about for that voting. Like Brockton won last year.

And if you slid him into this year and voted on. Oh, for sure. I mean, I mean, we just listed like five guys and we didn't even mention guys like Lowry Markinen, right, who also is deserving of votes as well. Do we have to apologize to him yet?

I mean, I think I already did apologize on a podcast. I think I did I apologize on a podcast? I'm not sure. I know I did on the website and on Twitter and on Reddit. I did it on all those places. So just to make sure, just to make sure I'm going to say it here too, that I, just for background on draft night, we were grading all the picks, right? And for the Lowry-Marconin pick, I gave it an F-plus. And like the grade was really for the trade.

But that was a mistake on my part. I should have just traded the pick. And if it were a pick, it would have been like a C-minus. And a C-minus still would be too low, right? So with Lowry-Marketing, I mean, he's been much better than expected. Here's what I'm saying. Still got a long way to go. Stick to your gun.

Don't get to apologize on everywhere yet. I'm apologizing. Lowry's, no. I'm the one talking you out of it. I'm saying, Lowry's better. No, no, because it matters. It's okay to be wrong.

There's nothing wrong. There's things to learn. Oh, God. Kevin, let me just explain something to you. Hey, listen, I could play anybody in the free world minutes in the NBA that has some level of requisite talent and they can get me numbers. I'm sorry. They've won three friggin games.

I don't care. I don't care what numbers he's putting up. It doesn't matter. It's inconsequential to me. For sure. And, I mean, like, if we're slandering Larry Markan, his numbers have been down the past month. Shooting below 30% from three since November 1st. I was trying to talk you out of apologizing.

That's what I was trying to do. Lowry's been much better than expected. I mean, he kind of transformed his body a little bit, rebounding the ball better. My consulate, look, I'm just going to say this about Laurie Market. I'm rambling for no reason. But Lowry, I liked Lurie marketing as a prospect, which is why. had him ranked 13th, right? It's just I loved everybody else so much more in the top 10, including guys like Mitchell,

guys like Malik Monk, including Frank Nili Kina. Like those guys I felt were deserving ahead of Marketing because kind of tie this back to what we talked about with the playoffs. I don't know if Larry Markerman will be a guy that really propels you to that next level deep into the playoffs based on the state of today's league with the spacing and with the need for perimeter defense and maybe he will be and I hope I'm dead wrong because I like I like him a lot. I was going to,

but, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that you've gone on the internet. I'm sorry for, on Reddit, and you've gone, you've, you've written the telegram and you've,

every, you wrote Santa and apologized. I did. I actually just sent that out this morning. Literally, I did. I did. You've apologized to everybody.

And I'm, I'm saying, boy, you got to stick to your guns and let this play out. Because, hey, allow me to remind you that Michael Carter Williams put up damn near triple double. He's,

every night playing his first year. No, he stunk. Numbers were overrated. That's why they traded them. That's why I'm saying it's I don't care what kind of numbers the guys. And when I apologize for Lowry Marketing and I'm really apologizing for the F plus, I'm not apologizing for my evaluation of him because I feel like that was quite sound, to be honest, I do.

I feel good about that. The other thing is that that was part of the Jimmy Baller trade. Give me a break. Yeah, I mean, and we'll see how that works out. You know, Chris, Chris Dunn has looked solid. You know, he's had some moments for them. We'll see how Levine looks when he gets back. hopefully that trade works out for the best for them

but I'm not convinced I'm still down on the trade whereas the George trade looks better there's no way around it does I'll be writing about that for next week Oh the DeFo's gonna be a damn all-star Yeah I'll be writing about that sometime next week Okay okay

All right Kevin have a great week buddy I'll talk to you next week Hey you too Vernon that was fun Thanks for listening to another Ringer MBA show If you dig with your hand go give us a rating interview on iTunes and we will talk to you next week Support for today's show came from Hotel Tonight, an awesome app for finding and booking great deals at great hotels. No crashing on an air mattress in your childhood bedroom this year.

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