The Ringer NBA Show - Unpacking the Nuggets' Win, Discussing the Raptors' Supreme Struggle, and Lu Dort Nerd Corner With Wosny Lambre | Group Chat

Episode Date: September 2, 2020

Justin, Jonathan, and Rob are joined by The Athletic's Wosny Lambre to discuss the drag-out battle between the Nuggets and the Jazz in Game 7 and what ultimately made the difference for the Nuggets (02:23). They also talk about the Raptors' failure to hold off the Celtics and how Toronto can improve in this first playoff outing without Kawhi Leonard (36:17). Then Jonathan takes us to Nerd Corner to break down how players with big wins can be difficult to build a team around (55:43). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Jonathan Tjarks Guest: Wosny Lambre Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to group chat, the ringer's weekly NBA group discussion show where we talk about everything from air punches to go bear coming up short. I am Justin Barrier, and joining me today, Jonathan Charks. What's up, guys? Rob Mahoney. Hello. And our special guest from The Athletic,

from 60 other podcasts that you listen to about, the NBA. Big Waz. What's up, my friend? What's up? What's going on, fellas? It's an honor to be here, man. It was like getting the major league caller. I'm finally, I'm finally potting with Jarks and Mahoney. Obviously, I used to pod with Varia all the time, so who cares? But true, that's why I acted to have for sure. The honor is all of ours. Thank you. Thank you. We got T.D. Sasha is usually here with us. So we had to annex someone else from the athletic pretty much. I love you. So today we're going to talk about a few things.

We're going to get into a story. Charks wrote about series wins and some star players and how they rank there as opposed to rings. That's in the back half. We're going to get into the Celtics and Raptors game. But first, let's talk about that game seven. The Nuggets obviously won 80 to 78. So after six shootouts, kind of like watching.

to Turtles race where it's like you're watching and they're slow inching by and it's like one is Yokish is running backwards you're like what are you doing here and then ultimately it came down to the wire a calmly shot went out

but while as I start here was this a good game and was it a good outcome for the Nuggets like do you feel good about either the game itself or the outcome I think it was a good game in the sense that it provided drama right it was like a pitcher's duel

if you will the NBA's version of that. Buckets were hard to come by, especially when you consider the mastery that we witness offensively for the better part of the series, right? It was just incredible shot-making, incredible offense. But game sevens are usually like this. It's usually a slug fest, knock them out, drag them down.

Possessions are usually lower. Buckets are harder to come by. So in that sense, it was a typical game seven. and more importantly, it delivered drama. Now, for your other questions, should the Nuggets be encouraged by this? If by encouraged, should they think they could beat the Clippers? Hell, no.

Yeah, I mean, to me in this game, I just really seem like you finally saw not having Bogdanovitch for Utah. Because without him out there, it's pretty much just Mitchell's your only bucket-gitter. Like the rest of those guys, I mean, go bare with your second-lead scorer. Conley, Ingalls, O'Neill.

None of those guys just get you a basket. So it's just Mitchell and I guess kind of Clarkson, which is just not enough in game seven. Well, and that was the thing, too, is, you know, once Gary Harris showed up in this series, Jordan Clarkson's whole life kind of changed a little bit. And he had some great defense on Donovan Mitchell, too, in some key spots.

Like, the nuggets aren't looking great right now, but they needed just a little bit more. And Harris was able to give them at least a touch of that. Yeah, it was funny how as soon as the nuggets got just, like a fifth good player. Everything just flipped on its head. Harris obviously had that big bald Nile 8. Pretty much just completed everything that the nuggets were doing here. I want to get into Mitchell and Murray a little bit, but first I want to talk about the guys around them, because even though the shootout was kind of how this game was sold and pretty much the store

for the first couple of games, at certain point, this game did come down to Gobert and Yokic. And then ultimately, Yolkich comes through in the back end with that 720 pure wire. whatever the hell that was in order to win the game, was what did you think of Yokic in this one? Because there were times where he kind of floated in and out and he didn't have a particularly good game, but ultimately he gets the bucket at the end and the stats show that he played well.

Yeah, and realistically, the way the defense went for them all series long, you can't complain with the outcome of Game 7. They played a lot of it, of course, if you're a jazz fan, you're having flashbacks, Nightmares, Groundhogs Day, Dejave, whatever metaphor you want to use of just missing big open buckets in a big playoff game. A lot of it is that, but he played sound defense, right? Like, he played about as good a defense as can reasonably be asked of him. And even better than that, when Gobert had to sit with the files in the first half, he was just absolutely feasting.

Maybe not necessarily scoring, but they were sending hard doubles. at him, and we know that's kryptonite for any defense against Jokic, because he's going to find the open guy. And I thought he did that effectively. He played justifiable defense while giving you effective offense, which is, you know, customary for him. Now, if you have the jazz, it's kind of frustrating. You're Rudy Gobert. I think in the second half, I saw the stats somewhere. I can't remember. They were held Denver was to a 71 offensive rating. That's bad. That's That's not good, right? And you can hang your hat on that if you're Rudy Gobert.

It's just they just couldn't scratch out enough shot making to win the game. But, yeah, Jokic, he made the big shot at the end. I think people might not necessarily consider him this way, but he's one of the most potent offensive clutch weapons in the NBA period. Like, he's either going to score on his guy or he's going to find the open man if you force him to pass it. So, yeah, I think he could be proud of the game. that he played in game seven? Yeah, I just thought it was interesting

because so much of this matchup was about Murray, it was about Mitchell, and ultimately it came down to that. But we're talking about unicorns these days, the ADs, the Janus's, Yokic, and a few other guys. It's just funny how everything ultimately just matriculates back to those wings. And it seems like in this one, too,

like the entire series was dictated by those guys. And I do wonder how much you could rely on someone like Yokic to win a playoff series. It almost feels like, I guess what I'm trying to say is he needs a Murray in order to take a next step. I'm not sure he can do it on its own. Well, don't we all, Justin. We all need a little bit of Jamal Murray in our lives.

But I mean, I think you could have said the same thing about AD when he was in New Orleans. And if you look at these other unicorn guys, I'm not sure who we're putting in that bucket these days. But it's not like Chris Apzforzzyngas was out here winning a lot of games before he was with Luca Donchich. it's not like Carl Anthony Towns has been set in the world on fire in terms of win-loss. Those guys need that kind of facilitating help. They need help in terms of translating a really interesting skill set into the shit that really matters.

So you're saying Tim Hardaway, Jr. isn't an appropriate number two? I don't know what kind of mythological creature Tim Hardaway Jr. is. A bucket getter, man. I think really talking about unicorns, like seven-footers who have some perimeter skills is It's not that unusual anymore. What's unusual is KD. That's a unicorn. That's a legit seven-foot guard who can defend the three-point line and shoot 30-footers.

That's what's, like, unique. The other guys is not, it's just different. He's just a different kind of guy. He's the one who's really special compared to the rest of it. To me, it's about creativity. I think when you have somebody like jokic, you have to think outside the box as far as roster construction. And, you know, and I think the way people need to think about it, think about a guy like Steph Curry, who obviously, Hall of Famer, legendary, changed the game.

But the bottom line is if he didn't play with somebody like a Draymond Green, who when they sent the hard double at Steph, he could just dump it off a guy on a four and three who can make incredible decisions 95% of the times, that matters. You replace Draymond Green with, I don't know, Hassan White's side. It's not the same effect. I think that's everybody has those issues where they, need complimentary pieces to unlock all the things that make them incredible, right? And I just cite step curry, but you can say that about LeBron, you can say that about AD, you can say that about

a number of people who, for them to be effective, they need certain things around them to, for them to be at the peak of whatever it is that they bring to the table. Even, I guess the exceptions of people like, Kauai Leonard, where it's just like, I'm just going to score 40 on an island no matter what. You know, he's the rare exception in that case. But even then, like on a team like the Clippers, we see when they don't have that lack of playmaking where that can come back and bite them. Where they don't have that rim protection, it can come back and bite them.

No matter who you have, you need to surround them with complementary pieces. I think Joe gets just special enough that if you can put a just, basically a competent defense around him, you're going to get buckets. Yeah, I've been watching A-D closely, and I think especially in that last game he played, just to close out the trailblazers, he's definitely taking a leap. We've talked about

this in the past, how his ball handling is coming along, some of his isolation game is coming along, he's bringing the ball up the core, but I still don't know if he didn't have a LeBron, just like he didn't have it in New Orleans, if this wouldn't be working as well as it could, because, yeah, he's like, he'll attack

a big from the top of the key, and he has a matchup advantage there, but if you put the right defender on him, I don't know if he could still be that isolation score that you need him to be. And as we're seeing throughout these playoffs, and I do wonder increasingly if this is also like the bubble is enhancing this,

a lot of it is just coming down to these guys just getting buckets. And that kind of brings me to Murray here. My big question with Murray is, I always figured he had some version of this in him, maybe not to this level, but this is kind of what you would, expect from him.

You know, he's not going to give you much on defense, but he can score when pretty much at will when he's on. Chirks, I'm curious if he's actually taken as much of a leap as we think, or is he just on one of these amazing stretches? I mean, it's hard to say, right? Because he compares to, like, who are his peers? Is he much better than, like, Donovan Mitchell or Devin Booker, right? Like, there's a lot of really, really good guards in the league.

he's he's leaped into that category but then there's a category of like your top five, top ten guys I don't know that he's ever going to get quite to that level unless it becomes like Steph Curry or something. Rob, how old is Buddy Healed right now? I think it's possible he's 37. Justin and I go back and forth all the time about

is Buddy Heald older now that, or sorry, is Jamal Murray older now than Buddy Heald was at the time he was drafted. I think we're quickly closing in on the date, at which that's no longer true. But for now, that's still the case.

It's pretty close. And this is, this is the hill that I've been dying on for a few years, as Rob knows. So I was in New Orleans, and I was saying, what is,

I think, a pretty, like, bland statement for anyone who follows the league at large, that Buddy was older, and so he was just beating up on younger players in college

and probably didn't have as high of a ceiling. Now, I have since waffled on that take as Buddy has been better than murder. especially on defense at times. But now Murray is kind of really coming into this. And I don't know. But I think Charks, you're right.

I think he is on this almost like second tier of like creators and playmakers along with Booker with Mitchell, SGA maybe, Tatum, although Tatum is kind of quickly elevating beyond that. I don't know. Where do we stand on all of those guys? If you had your pick of any of those guys through taking. man i feel bad saying this on a ringer podcast but i was one of the biggest jason tatham skeptims on the history of the planet i just felt like all of this step back 17 foot or crap

that's not sustainable offense for a team that's serious about winning right he was rarely getting to the basket he was not a playmaker in any way shape or form and the defense was a question mark. But since then, he's gotten exponentially better at all of that. And he gets to the free throw line for, that's a key to me. He gets to the free throw line 14 times against what is easily one of the three best defenses in the NBA. The wing versatility they have defensively, the scheme that they do with Nick Nurse being one of the smartest coaches in the NBA, that is elite NBA defenses and Tatum comes out, goes to the line

14 times. When Marcus Smart is draining all of these freaking threes yesterday, it's Tatum finding him. He's getting better at playmaking and he's become a plus MBA wing defender. You combine

all of those things, man. His ability to just straight up break elite defenses down one-on-one, his playmaking ability, his defensive ability. You can't You got to give it to Tatum at this point. I was a skeptic.

I was like, all of that Kobe, Kobe system. I'm going to shoot stepbacks at 19 foot, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble. It looks cute when it goes in, but that's not effective offense. He's changed that up. That on a key possession against the Raptors in game two, he put his freaking head down, went downhill, got fouled, drained the free throws. That's, that's superstar shit right there. And so to me, it's got to be Tatum, although.

I'm a big Donovan Mitchell fan and I love Devin Booker and get SGA out of there. Get him out of there. Get him out of that discussion, please. The thing about Tatum, too, he's looked just amazingly calm against the Raptors.

I mean, that was where I really hesitate to make the Kauai comparison with him just because I know how loaded that can be. But just kind of calmly going through his stuff, rock back, you know, pull Marcus Aul off balance, go buy him, little turnaround jumper, all of a sudden he's up to, you know, 32, 34 points.

Like, the level of poison doing that, the level of control in doing that. And to me, that's where Murray showed a little bit of a jump in this series. It was the yo-yo stuff off the dribble. It was, you know, pulling the defense just to step off balance and exploiting them. You know, there was the hot shooting from three, which is very clearly unsustainable. But then there's the way he was getting to the rim. And that's the important stuff for someone like Murray. And for someone like Tatum to be able to work that in between games so calm

against as Waz laid out, one of the best defenses in the league, one of the most frenetic defenses in the league, and a defense that you can never be sure where the pressure is going to be coming from. Are they zoned up on this possession? Are they going to trap me on this possession? And Tatum was all over it. Yeah, I'm with Waz. I was a Tatum skeptic, but I got to take the loss on that one. Like, he's just a killer. And you can't watch the playoffs. This is a big wing league, right? Big wings win championships. You take the big wing over the guard every time, right? Tatum just does so many things on the court now. He defends three positions. He spreads the floor. He gets buckets. He moves the ball now. That's just more

valuable than a guard, I think, 10 out of 10 times. Yeah. Let's talk about Mitchell real quick, just not to short sell him. So obviously, his biggest moment in the NBA as far, I think that's pretty fair to say at this point. I was a pretty big Donovan Mitchell skeptic early on. I remember making some comments along the lines of he's Russell Westbrook, just not is high profile. So he's an MVP is what you're saying. For Westbrook for MVP officially, which goes down on my record. Not my brightest moment.

But no, I have to say, like, he would do what you asked of him. He would score in big moments. He did it way earlier in his career than you would ask for a player like that. But then you'd look back on the stat lines. It's like, oh, he was like five for like 26. This is like not the best thing in the world. But he's clearly like just evolved into everything that the jazz need, especially as Sharks mentioned, without Bing Donovich.

Where are we on Mitchell? Because the question there in Charks, you wrote about this a little bit today for our blog here, is that even the best version of Mitchell needs a little bit of help. If you look around everything that the jazz have right now, it kind of seems like they're reaching, like they're ceiling, at least in terms of like age and where these guys are in their careers. I was looking at the numbers.

So Mitchell's 23, Gobert's 28. But then like Bogdanovich, Conley, Ingalls, these guys are in their 30s. And I think the concern for Utah is, okay, we're signing much to a five-year contract. In three years, those guys are going to be like barely NBA players at this point. Like, where is the young core around him? And I don't know what the answer for that is. But if I was Mitchell, I'd be worried about that. Like, where am I?

Like, Jamal Murray's plan with three, 25-year-olds. where are those guys for me at Fy Mitchell? Yeah, I'm going to be honest about my own bias as a New York City guy. I always... Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just in case the listeners were confused about that. No, I have a bias towards guys

who can get to the rim, right, at will because, you know, New York City guards can never shoot. But you can always get to the rim, right? But so I always love that about Mitchell. I always loved his ability to break guys down and get to the basket if he put his mind to it. He wasn't always good at drawing files. I think that's something he needs to improve upon. He wasn't even necessarily always good at finishing, but I loved his explosion and his ability to get there.

That's such an elite skill in the NBA when you're talking about the most premium perimeter defenders on the planet. So I'm somebody who's going to die, you know, sinking with the Donovan Mitchell ship. But as I'm watching him, his mid-range has improved. His three-point has improved. The next step of his game, honestly, is the playmaking. It's the stuff that made Rudy Gobert pissed off all season. You know what I mean? Like not being found when he's open underneath.

That's the thing that he has to develop next. But I'm somebody who believes in Mitchell. You know, I had a conversation with a couple of friends online before the playoffs started. and they were talking about going forward who'd you rather SGA or Donovan Mitchell? I'm just like, what are we talking about? Then Mitchell comes out and drops 50. Like that's like to me he's a special talent.

He's somebody you should want to keep, man. I would rather SGA, by the way. Oh, no. That's insanity. That is insanity. Oh, boy. What does he do better than Donovan Mitchell? Eventually everything.

Just to clarify, we're talking about the guy, that the rockets are just picking on relentlessly because he can't guard anyone in that series, right? That's the SGA we're talking about? Yeah, but he's young. You know, I love SGA, but you're getting him, you're getting strays right now, Justin.

Yeah, they'll have him these strays. He just needs to put on like a hundred more pounds. It'll be fine. Okay. You know, maybe just not look shook in every big moment. He'll be good. It's all Chris Paul's fault, you know? He's got that, like, dad-like presence.

As soon as he loses him, which is the only least. That's what it's come down to. No, but I think this is an interesting question just about Mitchell, primarily because they're kind of on the verge of this really existential offseason right now. So quietly, like, or maybe not quietly, as much as you, like, depending on how much you follow Twitter, pretty much Bobby Marks every time. Gobert is up for an extension. He is somehow super max eligible because of all the defensive player the year awards. He won't get that, but he is due a lot of money this offseason.

Donovan Mitchell also do a lot of money this offseason. There's a little bit of a wrinkle there because Mitchell can wait until next off season. When my colleague comes off the book and then you can add some there, and you get into this dance of, well, is not even going to want to add another guy? If you're Utah, can you really risk that, especially since kind of the ghosts of Gordon Hayward passed aren't really that far away? So, Rob, if you're looking at this, is there like really any appreciable way that they can get better? or is this really what they have to work with going forward?

Well, I think, you know, locking those players up on long-term deals, if you can. Like, I mean, you're not messing around with Donovan Mitchell. If that guy wants to sign an extension, you give him what he wants, you keep him in town. Yeah, especially if you're Utah. I mean, that's the thing with guys like Mitchell, where we're talking about his timeline, like Charks mentioned, why they don't have other young players on the roster.

I think the reality that we don't want to talk about with these teams sometimes is that they don't even have that luxury in some cases. If you build on Donovan Mitchell's timeline as the jazz, the Nugget situation is so unique just because Michael Porter panned out the way he did. But if you're playing Donovan Mitchell's age as your timeline, he's going to get out of there. He's going to leave at first opportunity because the team isn't good enough to hold him there. And so I think having guys like Gobert help, having a healthy Bogdanovich helps. I think the jazz are good enough to try to get healthy, try to take another crack at it next season.

And I think you do your best to keep Gobert at a reasonable number, even knowing that you might have to trade him. that's when things get dicey. When these other contracts expire, you have massive deals potentially for Mitchell and Gobert on the books. How are you building around them in a way that's going to be satisfactory? That's tough. But you want Mitchell as the centerpiece of that team and you're going to worry about the rest later, I think. Hey, Rob, I got a question for you. Yep. Would you rather be Devin Booker right now or Donovan Mitchell in terms of your supporting cast going forward? Are we talking just supporting cast? Are we taking into account like the efficacy of the front

office? That's tough. Just the guys around them though. Just the players. I'm still taking Rudy Gopier. Like, I still think he's just so much better than anyone who's on the Sons right now. And, you know, again, I get wanting to bet long term with a guy like Aiton or Bridges, like seeing the potential there. I'm excited about what the Sons could be.

Rudy Gopierre is really good. I don't want to gloss over that in this conversation at all. Can we slow down about the Sons real quick? I know they won each straight games. We do need to relax. Like, they won eight games probably in the regular season. So as encouraged as I am about Booker,

in the future there, I wouldn't be surprised that all of a sudden, like, he wants out midseason next year. That's my only worry there. It's just like, they have a good core. I don't know if they have an elite. That's all I'm saying. Watts, sorry. I interrupt you. Yeah, no, as far as the jazz

are concerned, to me, I'm encouraged by what I saw yesterday night in the sense that they played with a level of effort and passion and execution on defense that is high level NBA defensive execution, right?

And you can't just poo-poo that. Particularly when you consider two things. One, the regular season that they had where they did not play up to the standard. And most of it, we know for a fact from reports and rumors and innuendo that you see in the media, Rudy was just fed up with guys not giving him the ball. Like, I played this defensive player of the year level defense for you guys. I'm the reason we're a top defense and I can't get it. a look or two. And we saw that the whole regular season. Then, of course, he got blamed for the

coronavirus in America outbreak, right? And you hear the, and you hear the whispers, of course, and we know where this is coming from. It's coming from Donovan Mitchell's camp about how the situation might be untenable in Utah. Is irreparable in Utah? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I watched them play game seven. And I'm like, look, if they have Bogdanovich, if Connolly's able to play at a reasonable level because he was lights out, you know, for most of that series. He had a bad game seven, but he was really good. If you can get him to play close to that level, and I think Donovan Mitchell is going to improve upon the player that he is today, that's a damn good team.

I don't know that you're as good as the Clippers or Lakers because we're talking about all-time great talents on those teams as far as LeBron and Kauai. But, man, you're a damn good team, if that's the team. case. Okay, I'm going to throw some Gobert Shade out real quick. Oh, so he's a two-time defensive player of the year. Like, I respect. I mean, great interior defender, blah, blah, blah. You cannot watch the series to me and say, Rudy Gobert is going to take over series on defense against elite teams. I just feel like the style of play that he has in the playoffs. Because I think sometimes people say, okay, Gobert gets played

off the floor. That's not, that's not correct. But what it is, though, is Gobert can no longer dominate against the five out offense with enough shooting, right? So that means, like, if your team is based on Gobert dominating on defense, there's a ceiling. Like, to me, if I'm Utah, he should probably be my fourth best player. I'm going to win a championship. I just don't see where those other two players are going to come from. If Mitchell's number one, where are you going to find that number two player, that number three player?

Because, yeah, Lakers clippers, well, next year the Warriors are going to be back, right? The Rockets always beat the jazz pretty much consistently. That's four teams right there. Like, that's my concern if I'm Utah. I mean, it depends on your threshold for success, right? Like, I think Utah, if they're getting to the conference finals and they have those kinds of problems, that's a good year. Like, that's a good year for any franchise. If we're talking about what separates the truly elite title worthy teams that have a LeBron, that have a Kauai,

that have these mid-range killers who are just going to destroy whatever you throw at them in terms of drop defense and stuff like that. I think that's just a different level than we're talking about with a team like this. And maybe that's, I don't mean to talk down to the jazz in that way. that's a commendable season if you can get that far. You're Utah! Just say it, Rob, you're Utah. Given where you ended up, too,

that's certainly better than losing in the first round. You get a healthy, decent team around a guy like Gobert, around a guy like Mitchell. That's a good group. And I think where you're sick, if you're Utah,

is watching Donovan Mitchell D. Up Jamal Murray in Game 7, where if he has the energy to actually dig in and guard there, this series may have gone completely differently, But he doesn't because he has to drop 40 and 50 in these games just to keep his team alive. Yeah, I don't know if there is a Utah problem per se. Like going into this season, we were talking about them on the same level.

Maybe not the clippers and the Lakers, but just right below there, like, Bogdanovich is still a good addition. They didn't have him at all during any of these bubble game. And as you mentioned, Charks, I think he's going to be a key addition. If I'm looking at like the big picture, the issue to me is more Mike Conley. that Mike Connolly didn't end up being the player that they thought he would be, that he struggled to really fit in there, especially with Rudy Gobert. I don't know if he's as much of an upgrade as they needed him to be. And while I guess next season you kind of have to roll the dice,

at the same time, if Mitchell plays ball and is willing to just like not accept his extension until next off season, that's a lot of money that you could just like play with in next summer in order to keep this thing rolling. I don't think they're as fixed as we think they are. They have options, I guess is what I'm saying. I guess what I would say is you're talking about like what's Utah's threshold of success. What's Donovan Mitchell's threshold of success? That's really the question, right?

Because like he could be Dame Willard, I think. I think Dame seems pretty happy in Portland being a guy, being the legend, getting 40 points, losing the first round. That seems cool with him. What does Mitchell want? I don't know. And can Mitchell bring someone? else to Utah who's legit? Is he that much of a draw that someone's like,

I want to put Mitchell in Utah? I don't know. I think also what we got to remember is the last time, you know, a black guy, the caliber of a Donovan Mitchell wanted to be in Utah that long was probably Carl Malone. And that guy drives tractors. And so like, this is just something to think about

just to keep, Keep in mind there, man. That's a special, special type of cat, call him alone. So, you know, just keep that in mind, guys. I do have a question about the Mitchell-Gobert relationship. Do you think this series changed that at all just because if you're Rudy, like, I get it. As a big guy wanting the ball, makes all the sense in the world, especially with his level of defense. But when Donovan's out there putting up the numbers he is, it's kind of inarguable at that point.

And, you know, I'm not saying Mitchell can be that guy in a full. time basis. But if he's a couple steps closer to that on a full regular season going forward, if he's that kind of player, if you're Gobert, maybe you're a little more content to just kind of fill a role and do your thing and not see quite as many passes as you might like. My guess it comes down to success. If they're a one, two, three seed, yeah, I'll buy no smaller roll, whatever. If there are a five, six, seven, eight seat, it's like, well, shoot, give me some touches then. Why not? Yeah, I would tend to agree with that. But I do think there's just, something to the idea of guys going through an entire playoff run together, understanding

it like, you know, Denver is essentially our peers in the Western Conference, right? And we should have probably beat them. And we played our hearts out and you, to watch your teammate, put it on the line the way the dude was exhausted by the end of that game. He was gassed. I think that's part of why he had that huge turnover. He was just done. And you watch what he did against Jamar Murray defensively. I think it's hard to see that and just say, ugh, who cares? Give me my alley hutes so I could have stone hands and brick layups, you know?

Yeah, I think it helps that the bubble happened so quickly after all that fallout between them. Like, if they had more months and an entire summer, an entire preseason in order to fester, I do wonder if this thing would have come to a head a little bit more. But now they, at the very least, you've seen that this works, right? I mean, I think Waz has a point there, but I don't know. I think you could also play devil's advocate and say, hey, if we were at full strength,

maybe we would have had a better shot. That's all we actually needed. Denver only needed Gary Harris to just take a step forward and win this series. All we needed is bogey and then we're back in this. But, J.B., the difference is not flaming out. Because just look at, say, look at how Philly looked, right? Or take a, or my favorite example, look at how Oklahoma's city looked last year when they essentially flamed out of the playoffs and the team was detonated,

right? I think that's part of why it's like, look at what we did together. And, you know, the team gets detonated, Westbrook gets traded, even though OKC fans are still saying Russ stayed. I don't understand that, but that's neither here nor there. But yeah, I think that's the difference, right? It's like, look at how OKC flamed out and everybody looked at each other and said, let's blow this up. Let's get out of here.

Compared to what Utah did, it's hard to look at that effort and look at, you know, how close they got and say, let's get these guys out of here. Plus, they didn't even need a healthy roster. They needed one shot. Like, that was it. One Mike Conley three in and out. That's the difference.

That's the whole thing right there. And here they are. They're watching the playoffs like us. Welcome. We're having a lot of fun. We have gardeners to take care of things while you're watching the games. Let's talk just briefly before we move on to the Celtics and Raptors. about this Clippers and Nugget series.

Charks, any quick thoughts about this? Do the Nuggets have any chance? Or is the fact that Jamal Murray just found out that the series starts a day from now, does that not vote well for them? Well, I just think it's tough with Denver because always all year, it's like, how do they guard big wings? Who's their perimeter

size? And now you've got Kauai. Watching Kauai against Dallas and what he was doing to pretty good defenders and Kleever and Finney Smith, it was just like, this guy's at another level. He really can't be stopped. He can guard all five positions. I just feel like this could be Kauai's play. Again, where we're just seeing Kauaias takeover round after round, just wrecking people. Yeah, it seems obvious to me that

Denver's going to get their asses kicked. Like the matchup is just death for them. Partly because of how the clippers can defend them. The throwing of huge size and speed at the wing position at Murray, where it's just like, guys are going to be dreary. raped all over you, all your little fadeaways and all of that. That's not going to happen. These dudes are going to be in your shirt all season long. And then, of course, conversely, you know, who's supposed to guard Kauai Leonard? And Paul George, I know we keep saying Kauai, but Paul George is still a, he's still an

all-star NBA player. He needs to be guarded to. Who's going to guard those guys? I just don't see it happening for them. And I think the clippers are going to be way more relentless about Jokic. and attacking him in space and making him have to think defensively. And so I just think the matchup is a nightmare

in a way that it's actually a nightmare, not like how the rockets are a nightmare for the Lakers allegedly. I mean, there's strays everywhere in this podcast. My goodness. I mean, if you're giving up 120 to the jazz on a regular basis, I got real bad news for you playing the Clippers.

Like, it's going to be really rough for Denver's defense. but Gary Harris though I mean Lou Williams is going to have a real tough time but it's just not going to matter very much I think Yokic it really kind of falls on him to have a big series like he was pretty much relegated

to a jump shooter with Gobert just completely like walling off the pain in this past series and so if he could do a little bit much a little bit more get Zubach moving attack some of those smaller defenders that the clippers are going to switch on to them if they want to go smaller I think this is really

his moment to do something All right, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the Celtics and Raptors and get into Nerd Corner with Charks. All right, we're back. We're talking about the East now. Celtics go up 2-0 on the Raptors last night. I just want to clear out for just really quickly here. Because all season for an entire year, we have heard about how underrated the Toronto Raptors are.

Every time you mention them or don't mention them, what you hear is, they're so good, they should be talked about on the same level as the bucks and the Lakers, why don't you give the Raptors respect? This is why. This is their first actual playoff test without Kauai, and so far they have not done well at all. I know this most recent game

was kind of a coin flip that came down to Marcus Smart, pretty much playing like Steph Curry for five minutes. But that first game, they just looked completely overmatched. their transition offense was slowed down and all of a sudden they just didn't have the horses to step up, especially Pascal Seaccom, who has just looked off this entire postseason, even against the Nets, I think he's shooting under 40%

from the floor right now. And I think like if the Raptors get swept this series, I think that all Raptors fans are banned from calling anything underrated for at least five years. We need a Joe Smith level suspension for the Raptors, Because quite frankly, I'm sick of hearing it. They are exactly what we thought they would be. You know, the crazy thing is I'm somebody who I have a special affinity for the Raptors

because they made me look like a genius for coming out of the lease last year. And so, you know, I like to see them do well, right? But the bottom line is, and we say it over and over and over again, but in these postseason matchups and situations, in a close game, you have to get reliable offense against great set defenses. And if you don't have the type of players who can create advantages against those types of defenses, you're not going to go very far. And the Raptors don't possess that.

Much as I love Van Vlee, much as I love Siakum, much as I love Kyle Lowry, Mark Gassall, you name it. They don't possess those types. of players, those type of guys who can get quality looks. And oftentimes, these are mid-range looks against a set half-court defense consistently. And so it's going to be tough for them the manufacture buckets. How they're going to have to do this is basically relying on Fred Van Vleet dropping, you know, pull-up threes from 26 at a decent clip. Kyle Lowry actually not going 0 for 7 from 3. You know, they're going to have to rely on those type of things.

Seacum, operating in transition, you know, being able to get mismatches against smaller guys on his post-ups. They're going to have to rely upon that. And if that's not happening, when you get in a close game, they don't have a guy who can deliver the type of possession that Kemper Walker did, right? Where he runs a pick and roll, he gets the Ibaka switch, and he just cook. them cross over step back. I create about a freaking mountain of space between me and my defender. And you know I can make 17 footers. You know. The Gary McGee. Exactly.

The Biggie's tournament. Wow. You can't deep cuts today. Exactly. And you know, and you know I can make that shot. And the Raptors don't possess that. As much as I love Nick Nurse as a coach, I love their defense. I love all of their parts, but all of their parts are kind of ancillary type of parts. They don't have consistent go-to-one-on-one iso type of guys. I mean, Toronto definitely could have won this game. They had their chances. They had windows to put this thing away and did not. But they kind of set the tone right up front, which is, you know, they get rocked in game one. They come out in game two, and Nick Nurse is a coach who we can trust Nick Nurse to make the right kinds of adjustments to see the opportunities

in a series. And off the bat, he's going to isoing and posting Seacom against guys like Jalen Brown against guys like Jason Tatum. I'm not sure that's the wrong decision. He has to establish Pascal scoring in the half court in some way to get their offense moving. And yet if that's the option on which your team is going to have to rely, you're probably going to lose. Like those guys are really good wing defenders who are going to be able to punch above

their weight. Seacum has looked really awkward all series, trying to create off the dribble, trying to create in the half court. But that's kind of where the raptors are right now, especially when they're missing damn near every three they put up. Yeah, I mean, you got to give Jalen Brown. his props. Like, there ain't very many guys who are a mismatch against Jalen Brown when he's guarding them. Like, it just doesn't happen often. And I think what was said is important, talking about

when Kemba switched on the Serge Abaca and got that shot, if I'm Toronto, I think you just got to go even smaller. You got to play as small as Boston. I would probably play Pascal at the five, OG at the four, and switch everything and just play like five guards. Because really like, Boston's a very small team, right? They're basically Houston with better wings. Like, their center is Daniel Thais, right? They're playing four guards the whole game. I can get up playing their style. Like, Marcassol in the series, what's he really doing out there? I'm not sure. This has been a very difficult series for me personally. Markasol looks awful. The Nuggets basically won by not playing Paul Millsap anymore. And Alhofer just got completely run off

the court. My whole worldview is shattering. I don't know what to do. Please, please respect my and my family's privacy during this time. We just got to hope Roco does this thing tonight, man. But you'll say, Mahoney. Can't take it. Can't take it. No, listen, what the Raptors did this season is an accomplishment. Nick Nurse is a goddamn warlock. They made more out of that team than I think anyone, even the biggest optimist and the biggest Toronto fans ever expected.

And they should be commended for that. It's just, I think to Waz's earlier point in the earlier segment, Tatum is just doing some starship. I know that Walker made that big shot toward the end after he missed pretty much every single shot he took in the first half. I think literally every single shot he took in the first half, and Marcus Smart played big and all these other things. But before all that or in the middle of all that happening,

Tatum was not only doing it scoring, but his play making was incredible. He was getting guys open shots in the pain with Daniel Thice. He was activating Robert Williams. He was getting guys open for quarter of threes and Marcus Smart. I just think that is the difference. And I think, like, we want to just, like, overcomplicate everything so much that a,

team that is so well coached, like the Raptors can play so well, they can overcome all of the not having Kauai stuff. But ultimately, stars win this league and Tatum is leveling up to a superstar to the point where he's kind of the difference in this series. Is that like, I don't think that's dumbing things down. I don't think that's being reductive at all. It's not. And the thing, and I don't think a lot of people realize this is that Toronto's team last year is actually to me a much better team than the clippers this year in the sense that kawai as we know can operate on an island and when they need him that break glass in case of emergency that's going to happen and the rest of the game they can save him doing all of their continuity stuff and we can see the theory of that happening

this season where it's like this is a 51 team without kawai i promise you i promise you the clippers without kawai where paul george is basically moses leading them to the promised land those Those people are going to die, starving. That's not going to happen. That team would stink. I promise you that team would stink. It would be a horrible team. But Toronto was so perfectly...

What if they had SGA, though? SGA! Oh, my goodness. And, you know, and that's what I'm saying. Like, last year that team was so beautifully constructed in the sense that they can. to grind people to dust defensively. Kauai cannot have to be relied upon

to generate decent looks every single possession where it's like, we're running picking rows with Lowry, we're running picking rows with Van Vleet, we're finding picking pops with Mark Gassau wide open, we're able to generate decent offense and then when our freaking Terminator 2, T-1000 needs to be used, we got that and we're taking you out.

They don't have that. They have, they have short roles with one of their last baskets that they scored was a floater from Ibaka from like 12 feet. That's your crunch time offense. You know, like, it's tough, man. And I love the Raptors, but it's not going to happen for them. Yeah, if I can borrow a Kevin Arnavitzism, like to say that a team overachieved is a compliment. And I think that's where the Raptors are.

Like, they overachieved with this group. And this is the reality check on that. You know, when you don't have that half-court creation, when you're – And one thing that's really stuck out to me, and this is weird saying against the team that's playing the Celtics, but the rafters look so small. And it's because when you're reliant on Kyle Lowry and Fred Van Vleet to drive as your primary source of offense, and they're driving into a bunch of guys who are 6-8 and standing in a crowd around the basket, all of a sudden everything looks a lot more daunting.

Yeah, I mean, Lowry's playing Tatum a lot. That's 6-0 or 6-8. To look small against the Celtics is an accomplishment as well, considering that they are playing two munchkins in the backcourt, like, as good as smart as on defense. But no, one thing, it looks like the Celtics are kind of having a charmed run too.

It just feels like things are aligning in the right ways. Like Hayward obviously adds a lot to that team, but I almost feel like clearing the way and just like throwing out any sort of lineup configurations or decisions and just going with smart as much as possible is almost made them a better version of their best selves.

Like smart is, he'll give you plays like that. I mean, he'll also probably shoot you out of a game at times. But it just seems like everything is aligning for them, not only just like within their team, but also in the East where the bucks are looking shaky all of a sudden. And I think like the heat, even if they win that series are beatable,

like all of a sudden, I wonder if the Celtics could go on and run like the Raptors did last year. I wouldn't go that far. I actually still, as bad as the buck, have looked throughout the entire bubble. And for me, it's more about their defense than anything. I think they're just slightly better than Boston.

And specifically the matchup with Janice, where Boston doesn't quite have the heft, you know, to deal with him. So I think that's going to be a problem for them. But what you said is your point is still taken in the sense that their continuity is there. And I know we spent all of last season, you know, Hemming and Hawn about the Kyrie dynamic and how everybody hated the guy.

And, you know, part of me was like, come on, that's got to be an overrated narrative. At a certain point, you got a hoop. But then watching this team do what they do without them, you know, it's been proven and borne out. I do like the juju of this team. I just think matchup-wise, I think the bucks are ultimately going to claw their way

out of that series against the heat is going to be tough. But I think they're going to be able to do it. But the matchup with the Bucks is a tough one for them. Yeah, I guess the heat would have to come out of that series. Yes. Yes. And if that aligns, I think then the Celtics have a shot. I don't know if they would be any team that come out of the West.

But I don't know, all of a sudden, they're just looking really good. It seems like they have everything clicking. Do you want to talk about the Bucks quickly, just as a side tangent here? If we're talking about teams that were overrated, I don't know if the Bucks were overrated so much as Mike Boodenholzer might be overrated. I'm just like really getting sick of watching Buck series where they need to get punched in the mouth at least once, maybe twice, before they start even considering something different. Charks, you've like talked about this a lot with Bud. Are you as frustrated as I am just seeing them struggle after this just incredible regular

season? My guy James Herbert at CBS Sports, he had a big article today about Buddenhouser. And there's just quote in there at the end of it. And I think it says it all. It says that he's asking Bud about matchups and adjustments. And Bud says, we kind of do what we do. And hopefully it's good enough. And to me, that logic is just like unacceptable. Like I've watched LeBron for like 10 years in the playoffs.

LeBron always changes up what he does in the playoffs. And he's LeBron James. Like LeBron's teams always move around. The tack matchups are very versatile. And you've got possibly the best player of all time. And he's willing to do that. So possibly you can do that. too. That's all I'm saying. I do want to say one thing in defense of Bud, specifically game one,

and our homie, Justin Amina Al-Haston, actually pointed this out. They pre-adjusted in game one. They brought the Biggs up and started getting cooked in the lane when they're supposed to be the clog the lane team, right, and got completely cooked for it because they were worried about, you know, the Vanella brothers. They were worried about Duncan Robinson and Tyler Hero. They were so worried about what those guys would do at three against the drop defense. And they got exposed, you know, underneath the basket. I think what you're going to see them do is so, like, it's so funny.

Like, they did the pre-adjustment game one and got cooked. And what you're going to see them do is revert back to clogging the lane and mean, like, yo, if Miami is going to kick our asses from downtown, then we're just going to have to lose. this series. The Vanilla Brothers. I commend them on that, but I'm not going to go wild over the fact that they decided to put like salt and pepper on their steak. You know what I mean? It's not like they're just like reaching into their spice rack and just

coming up with something new. No, no, no. They didn't throw a box in one at Steph Curry in the finals. They didn't do that. No. It's just really frustrating when their whole thing is like, yeah, Janice, driving out to these three-point shooters. It works so well. The math is there. All these shooters have all this.

Then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, this isn't working all that well. And they just don't do anything different. It's like watch Janis just ram his head over and over again into a wall. And then you're kicking out to Pat Conantin as opposed to like a Bledsoe or someone else. And I'm just like, what are we doing here?

And why is Pat Conantin on the floor so much? I was just going to say. Yeah. Like, what is that adjustment? Just like, is this like typical? coach, like, you got to play the guys who are grinders or whatever. It's just like, can we just...

West Matthews is a grinder, though. Yeah, I know. So the doesn't even make sense. Yeah, because even when Bud adjusts, it's like hard to follow the logic sometimes of his adjustments. Like, in that game, so West Matthews guards Butler real tight

in the first half. Down the stretch of the game, he benches West Matthews for Pat Conantin and puts Middleton on Butler, and Butler just cooks Middleton for four minutes. And it's just like, the logic of that move, I just, I can't,

follow it. I think you can either kind of stick to your principles or keep Janus's minutes down, but you can't do both. If you want to be the battering ram team that's going to play the way we play and stick to your stuff, you can win that way because you have Janus, but you need

to play him 42 minutes every game to get that chance against these high-level teams. I think there's something to be said for saving him down the stretch, but especially in the first half, like, he just needs to be stretched further. We need to keep our best players on the floor more often if going to beat a team like the heat. Do you think

if Bud didn't grow up in the pop system, we would give him this much leeway? Like if he was like the top assistant for Vinnie Del Negro, would we like revere him as much as he did? Because I do think like he gets away with a lot of it when yeah,

he really took the bucks to another level in the regular season. But the past two post seasons, man, they have been rough. But the thing is he's won. You know, like that's the thing. He's actually won. This isn't a Brett Brown situation, right?

Who, again, I know he was hamstrung by the process, and we're not going to do that here today. But he never won. Bud has won. He won in Atlanta with a group that nobody thought he should have been winning that much with. A complete, like an obviously limited group. And he's won with the bucks. He elevated them.

I mean, the difference between him and Jason Kidd, that upgrade is just crazy. And so, you know, they lost a close series in the conference finals last year against the eventual NBA champions. And, you know, this whole season has gotten off to a weird start. But, you know, let's let it play out and see what it happened. But if they just get creamed in five games, which I don't think is going to happen, I think they're going to win a really close, probably seven-game series. But if they get creamed in five games to Miami to Duncan Robinson and Goran Drogic and

and rookie Tyler hero if they get cream by that team it's tough it's tough it's tough it's tough it's tough it's real tough but I think that the conference finals qualifier from last season is important because we talk like bud like he was swept like the bucks just got you know their asses handed to them like that was a good team

on a good run should they have gotten to the finals yeah like but they're I mean what up to O overtime in game three or sorry double overtime I think in game three. If that game three swings a slightly different way, it's a totally different series. Ultimately, with this stuff, we're talking about does Marcus Smart hit five threes in a row in the first four minutes of the fourth quarter or whatever? Like sometimes series swing on stuff like that.

And I feel like that's kind of what happened to the Bucks last year effectively. I would say, too, like going back to him about Utah with like these thresholds, when you're coaching Prime Giannis, the threshold is championship, right? There's no coming in second, no coming in third. this is the best player Milwaukee's had in 50 years. When you have that level of player, the stakes are just so much higher. Like, we're not going to be okay with the finals loss. Like, you've got Janus for one more playoff, maybe two.

Maybe he stays, maybe he doesn't. Maybe this is your best chance to win in 50, another 50 years. And when that's the case, it's just like the pressure is higher, the stakes are higher, expectations are higher. Now it's like for Bud, it's show and proof. Like, realistically, this is the best player you're ever going to have on your team. Airbonne championship, now it's time to do it. Totally fair.

The disrespect of Glenn Big Dog Robinson charts, I can't believe you, man. That's crazy, man. Yeah, the bucks so far have beaten who? The pistons. They just got by the magic, and they beat the garbage Celtic. So there you go.

It's a real legacy builder right now. Speaking of legacies, Charks had this piece up yesterday, just looking at NBA superstars through the prism, not by rings, but by series wins. There's series records. I want to get into this, but I specifically want to get into this

through the lens of Hardin in Westbrook, or Hardin Chris Paul tonight, just because this is a big game, and I want to get into this. So clearly, this series has gone awry, if you're the Rockets. And it's kind of gotten to the point now where it feels like Hardin's legacy

is on the line a little bit. And that's the type of thing like before, like, it sounds hot takey, but I kind of feel like it's true because we're at the point where obviously his playoff record is behind him and to get beat and not only beat, but like have the thunder come from behind led by the guy that you forced off your team. I don't know if there's really coming back from this. So, um, Charks, you want to take us through where Hardin and even Russ and CP3 are on this list of series records? Basically what I was looking at is just like, I'm going to go through all these guys' careers,

look at every playoff series they've been in, wins and losses. If you get hurt, it doesn't count, right? So, like, this pretty simple stuff. And I'm doing this list. I think we all realize the value of big wings, but just how crazy the numbers are. So number one, LeBron is 36 and 10. Durant, 19 and 6. Kauai, 17, and 4.

That's the top three. you've got Steph at 16 and 4. But then the rest of these guards, you have Harden 11 and 10, Lowry, 9 and 5, Russ, 9 and 8, CP3, 7, and 9, Dame, 5, and 8. And you're looking at these numbers, like, man, it's just so hard for guards to win consistently in the playoffs year after year. And there's these special kind of 6-8, 6-9, wings, LeBron, Durant, Kauai.

Like, there's just different levels to this. And it just feels like if you're a guard, but a guy like that on your team, it's just going to be really hard for you. One of the things that jumped out to me about this list, too, is it kind of reads as an indictment against long-term commitment. Because so many of these guards are guys who have locked up with one team

for a really long time. They've been, quote-unquote, loyal. They've stuck through a couple different changes. Guys like Dane, guys like Russ with the Thunder. And how are you rewarded for something like that? Versus the guys at the top, and you can draw the causalities here however you want, but the LeBrons, the Kevin Durants,

the Kauai's, like those guys, are clearly in demand and can move around. And as we've talked about in this conversation, you can just drop them into a team and they would make a lot of sense pretty much anywhere. But that kind of stuck out to me that those guys were kind of more of the mercenary set and yet they're also the guys who are winning

everywhere they go. Yeah, for me, I don't know, for me, whenever we have these conversations, it's, did you play up to or exceed whatever standard you set in the regular season? Not were you Superman, Were you this? Did you play up to the standard that you've set for yourself by your play over a long period of time?

If the answer is yes, which to me, Chris Paul mostly plays up to his standards in the playoffs. His team might lose. They might choke in a bad situation. But for the most part, he's playing up to his standards. Kauai plays better in the playoffs, right? KD has mostly been up to his standards. LeBron, of course, we know where his record is in the playoffs, right? Hardin and Russell Westbrook, that is not the case.

Russell Westbrook has never played like an MVP in the NBA playoffs, ever. Not one time in his career has he done that in the playoffs, right? You can take a counter example, which I love to use, which is LeBron in 2009 against the magic. They lost pretty handily. Like, the magic were just an actual match-up nightmare. And I know I keep beating the dead drum. But they were a match-up nightmare for them. But LeBron played up to and exceeded his own standard.

They just lost. That's different from what we watch Hardin and Westbrook specifically do. Every single season in the playoffs. They play below their standards, always. And I think that's meaningful. I would say going back to what you're saying, It's a question of what the standard is, right? Like, Chris Paul has never been underachieving.

He's a six-foot guard, right? There's only so high he's going to go. So the question is more like, let's remember that when dames dropped in 50 a night and people are saying he's the best player in the world. It's just like just not the case. And that's totally fine. And I think for the Hardin and Westbrook,

maybe it's not so much like they're not playing as good. Maybe like they put up big numbers in the regular season on good teams. So they give them awards. that gets the playoffs, though, and there's smaller guards playing against freaking monsters. Like, to me, I'm about Hardin's reputation.

He's already gone past the first round exit guy. If he's going to be like, have this year be a legacy year, he has to beat LeBron and AD in the second round. Is he really going to do that? The matchups suggest that he might. Man, I am really not ready

for the James Hardy conversation if they lose. Just because everything we're saying it here, this is a totally reasonable line of criticism with Hardin. Like, his record is what, it is in the playoffs. But there's this weird moralistic component with him where he's ruining the game. People don't like the way he approaches things. It drifts into this really weird, dark place that if he loses a series like this one, where, again, rightly, the Rockets should get blasted if they do lose this. They threw away two of these games. I just don't want any part of the

conversation that's going to result from it. Yeah, I only really root for two things. One is for a short series. And two is for the discourse not to veer into ways that I know are just going to be infuriating. And it does feel like we're kind of doing that. But no, to Waz's point about like how teams set their own expectations, I do feel like the Rockets in Hardin set the expectation that they should be able to beat Chris Paul because they sent them off to like the island of misfits toys. And all of a sudden, like here they are just on the ropes. And like, if anything, I was, more encouraged about the Rockets after they went into this full small-ball,

like, extremism sort of approach, than I had been before that because everything just seemed to work. They were this big, like, chaos agent. You could see, like, earlier, even in the series and earlier in the seating games, like teams were struggling to match up with them. Jeff Green was good again.

Like, everything was going well. Listen, listen to listen to what you. Let's just, let's just take a step back in and listen to what you. what you just said. Jeff Green. And one of the things you said is Jeff Green is going to play well. Another thing that you didn't say is that Russell Westbrook is going to play well on clutch possessions in a playoff game in the half court.

That has never happened in the history of the world, ever. And so the theory of the Rockets was always like, but Westbrook's going to play. And Mike DeAnne Tony doesn't have the juice to sit him and just straight up actually do the five. out with a guy who can actually make reliably hit a wide open jumper. You know, it was funny. I was listening to Rosillo and Royce Young talk about the Westbrook and hard and dynamic in relation to game six in that last possession and all of this stuff. And Royce said something that I just completely disagree with.

I love Royce. He's obviously dope at his job. But he said that Westbrook is somebody who embraces the moment because he's willing to take a brick of 17-footer, a contested 17-footer under pressure. That's nonsense to me. I'm sorry, all due respect to Royce. Like, if you're up to the moment, I've watched Russell Westbrook initiate offense in a nuanced way in the regular season.

I've watched him initiate offense with nuance before. So when in clutch situations, you just throw that complete idea of away and just go, I'm just going to take the worst shot possible for my team. That means you're not clutch. I'm sorry. You don't embrace the moment. Yeah, he shouldn't be embracing the moment is his problem. He should be embracing like the corner and just say in that corner. Bracing the and love that corner because like he's doing too much. Like he was at his best this season when he played an ancillary, secondary, even like tertiary role to James Harden. He was like a, a, um, a, um, amazing in that role. And that is who he has to be now. He needs to be an amazing role player.

The problem is, can he think that? Can he like accept that change when the moment is going, when it's clutch time, and he needs to defer? And I do kind of feel like Harden, it's on him in order to tell him off and basically take the ball and say, this is my moment. You need to stay in that role. I don't know. One thing I want to see. So, in that game six ended the game, It was Harden screening for Westbrook. He gets in the lane, turns it over. Flip that. I want to see Westbrook screening for Hardin.

I feel like that way you can minimize Westbrook's bad jump shot if he's a role, man. I think that is the adjustment if they're going to make one is to make. But then you got to counter Westbrook to be effective without the ball. Set a good screen. This is what I'm talking about with Westbrook. It's like all that there's a lot of this performative effort with him. that and I get it, it endears him to the prairie, and they still love him to this day,

even though he demanded a trade out of town, just like KD did, even though KD, all he did was leave when his contract was up, but he left the prairie too. But I get that his fake efforting is something that endears him to those people and it adheres him to a certain group of people. But like, br, set a real screen.

Dude, stop jumping out on defense and actually concentrate and execute your assignment. and help defense. How about that? That's clutch. That's winning basketball. You don't do any of that. You get the ball, take a wild shot,

brick it, airball it. You can't make free throws anymore. Get them out of here, guys. Man, wow, that turned quickly. The only thing I want to say in defensive Russ here who played a pretty terrible game was he tried to pass it. He just kept passing it out of bounds.

He kept passing it to the third. thunder. Like, this whole, like, should he have deferred conversation? Like, do we just forget that he had turnover after turnover? Like, if anything, he looked completely unsure of himself, like, did not trust himself to break down, like, break guys down off the dribble. Like, he didn't look like anything like Russell Westbrook, except in the ways that was identified, which is kind of bricking in crunch time. Yeah. I mean, he did just come back from injury. And I think that is one thing that does get lost here. It's like, I think everyone has this, like, natural, like, where as soon as Russ

screws up, they're like, oh, let's pile on Russ. But I do think, like, he has at this point a little bit of an excuse, but at the same time, they need to figure this out quickly because everything's on the line here. Remember when he won the MVP that season,

and, you know, there's a lot of noise and regular season clutch performance, but OKC was the number one clutch team in the NBA that's regular season. Granted, a lot of times you're being clutched against the Knicks. We're going to throw a grain of salt on that. But I'm just saying, like, they were the number one clutch team in the NBA,

and a lot of that was Russ orchestrating that, right? It wasn't even a lot of it. All of it was Russ. By design, it was him orchestrating that, and they were getting favorable outcomes in the clutch in the regular season. So you can't tell me in the playoffs, this guy can't figure out how to be smart. In clutch situation, I just don't buy that.

So one thing I'm curious about with all y'all, it really sounds like Dan Tony's probably not coming back to Houston. You think? Who would coach this team? What makes sense for y'all? Who would you bring into coach Russ and Hardin at this point? But see, that's the thing. It's over. It's over once they fire Dan Tony.

Because there's nobody you can actually bring in to execute this small ball stuff when it comes to coaching. and they're going to just essentially break up this team. Tillman Furtado, whatever his name is, he doesn't have patience to be paying for a team that's not going to matter. I think this team is toast after this season. I think Mori probably isn't cooked until his contract is up, because, again, Fratada is so broke, he's not going to pay people who don't work for him.

So Mori will probably stay on as a hostage situation, as we've seen since Fratada bought the team. it's a right for this team. So we're recording this before any of the Wednesday games go up. So I just want to give Steve a couple alts here just to say, Hardin, oh my God, he is so incredible. Russell Westbrook really rose to the moment. Mike Boodenholtz are great adjustments.

Giannis played an incredible game. So we're covered there. All right, let's wrap it here. Wise, my friend, thank you so much for joining us. Hey, man, thanks for having me. This was super fun. Thanks for letting me blab on here. All right, man.

That's it for us. We will be back next week for Waz, for me, for Charks, and for Rob, and for Steve on production, cleaning things up for us. We'll see you next time. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.