The Ringer NBA Show - Updated Rookie Comps | Group Chat

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann are here for a rookie class check-in. They go through the top rookies and provide some updated comparisons for each of them. They wrap up with some more under-the-radar rookies  they've liked watching as well. (0:00) Intro (5:20) Cooper Flagg (17:06) Kon Knueppel (27:57) Dylan Harper (37:41) FanDuel ad break (38:53) Tommy Hilfiger ad break (39:29) V.J. Edgecombe (46:14) Ace Bailey (51:50) Tre Johnson (58:46) Jeremiah Fears and Derik Queen (1:02:25) Egor Demin (1:04:59) Collin Murray-Boyles (1:07:01) Cedric Coward (1:10:40) Under-the-radar rookies Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Victoria Valencia and Isaiah Blakely Production Supervision: Ben Cruz and Conor Nevins Social: Isaiah Blakely and Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Explore more at https://tommy.com Tommy Hilfiger Tommy Hilfiger USA | Official Online Site & Store Tommy Hilfiger USA offers modern, sophisticated styles for women and men including apparel, handbags, footwear, underwear, fragrance and home furnishings with free shipping available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man. And gentlemen, this is March. We've reached it. Kyle, this is your time. How you feeling? Very good. I got, I was sweetened about this. I got sucked into a, I'm just prime prey for these types of things. But, you know, any kind of highlight reel of, you know, Bill Raftery saying onions or, you know, March, March Madness buzzer beaters. it was like midnight last night and I was just sitting there watching them so yeah man I'm I'm getting it's in the air you can just kind of you know your smell the whatever it is whatever your way of like getting the sense for for the vibe I think it's the smell of my own elitism coming out because it's one of those things where as Kyle is talking about the insane that shit that he is doing at midnight on a Sunday night which is digging up highlights that I have no reference point for or interest in it's like I think I'm better than that, but obviously I'm not better than that. I'm just looking at Cian James highlights instead. And I think somehow that makes me superior. I should make our upcoming NBA draft discussions very robust and thorough. Thank you. Look, I'm here to do my job, here to be a professional.

But, Justin, what's in the air for you? I mean, are you swelling with the glory of the upcoming March madness? I'll tell you what's not in the air. And that is mold particles because this weekend, I went to work on that bathroom, my friend. as you guys have seen, I was wearing the whole respirator outfit thing. I've gotten serious. We're fixing this bathroom and we're doing it one spray bottle that might cause some long-term health risks at a time. Well, walk us through.

Look, you're not an oversharer on social media, but you blast out into the world. Very stylish photo of yourself in your renovation bathroom with, you know, mask in tow. Take us through your thought process. I mean, what were you, what was it you were trying to convey to the world other than I am Justin Varyer and I'm getting shit done? I meant to convey that I'm about this life and that you should get on my level that everyone's out here building their brands. I'm building houses, all right? That's my brand. Kyle, I'll have you know last time Justin was in L.A., I tried to subtly diss the property brothers and I've never seen Justin come to a more spirited defense.

Like, he really threw his body in front of the whole thing. they're trailblazers. Are they Portland Portland people? Is that true? No, I'm interested in Vegas. And you would know that if you watch some of their offshoot shows. No, but they are trailblazers in the sense of

just flipping houses. Making the world better a place for the rest of us. Dog, I don't think they invented capitalism. I got to tell you. Opening concepts. Opening the door for people to have a home. I don't know.

So would you say you're like errant wandering per visit, has your efficiency, has it gone down at Home Depot, Justin? Or are you like, are you more, are you a little more efficient in your visits there? How's that going? No. In fact, this time I walked, it was a Lowe's because they have the specific backer board that I was looking for. I needed go board and not curdie board, obviously, a little cheaper, you know, but also easier to move around if you're just doing it yourself. We'll get to that later. but they hit it in the back.

What you don't realize is they have a back wall that they hide all the good stuff and it's always there. I always am looking in the normal aisles but they never put it there. It's always where you can't find it. So this one took a couple laps. Do you think they're doing that too fuck with everyday people like us? Could be.

I also think like a lot of these stores are surprised when people show up now. They're always like, oh, it's just online. Like just go online. you can figure it out there. I just don't think anyone that has a brick and mortar actually even values a brick and mortar anymore. That's sad.

Sad to hear. Do you want to get into this? I kind of do, but we got to keep it moving. We got a full slate today, and we've already gotten into the full offerings of lows. That's right. Well, that's a T. I think we set ourselves up for some kind of sponsorship, right?

Justin, you're just like, you're just a portrait of a man, you know, getting into this, into this new hobby at this stage of life. So hopefully we can dangle that out there. literally any time I will sell out for just a coupon at Lowe's or Home Depot. Just let me know. All right, but today's episode, we're talking, we're building for the future here. That's right, because we're talking about, about rookies. Yeah, we haven't checked in on the rookie class for a while.

We talked about some of the bigger guys in the class, and we'll do that as well. But we're going to do some updated comps for some of the top guys, maybe top 10 or so. We'll get into some sleepers deeper in the draft as well. but basically what we know now about these players as NBA players and kind of updating our previous conceptions of them. Maybe there's certain new things to tease out. Anything you guys want to talk about or should we just jump right in here? Let's just jump into it. Okay. So we got to talk Cooper Flag right off the jump, not playing right now. But I was struck by this stat that I saw from Dan Feldman, which was as far as age 18 seasons for players in terms of box plus minus.

there are only two players over one in the history of the NBA. One is LeBron James at 1.7. One is Cooper Flag at 1.3. Tracy McGrady is at point six, Amir Johnson at point four. Now, the quibble here is that there probably aren't a ton of age 18 seasons in the NBA, especially after they reinstituted the one in Dunnroll. But this is pretty uncharted territory. And Kyle, I kind of think like that's where we are with Cooper wondering,

not only is he like special, but honestly, like, how special? does it get for him? He is, I mean, yeah, obviously special. It's been, I'm trying to think of the age 18 seasons that would even be in that stratosphere to be eligible to be compared. Yeah, Andrew Vitam did come to mind because he came in at 17, right? Yeah, context is always interesting with rookies. And, you know, Cooper has had more thrown at him.

I think one of the more essential sort of things to take into consideration is you know, how many other shot creators are on this team? So he's getting burdened in a way. I think that was rough on him in the beginning, but he's kind of proven his merit over time and adjusted really well. I'm curious, like the shooting percentages you go through and you look, like when you said LeBron, my mind went and I was just like, I think whenever you're doing comps, you have to kind of stop and think, like,

what's so holy that we can't go near? You know, Kevin Duran is always one of mine where I'm just, just like, we're just not going. We're not going into that wing of the chapel of, of, of, comps. He does have some kind of LeBroni connective, bring people together, kind of culture, tone set, or things. But I don't know, but I don't think that I would go there totally in terms of, like, what he does. I guess that, let's just use that as a starting point, I guess, for, for how we want to decide who he's comparable to. The fact that you even have to stop to consider it is what makes him such an insane prospect. And I think you're right on, Kyle, about the context with any

rookie being really the governing factor of whether they're good out of the gate, whether their skill set makes sense out of the gate. And for the Mavs to throw, I don't know, like between five and six and ten different contexts at him over the course of the season because they've been such a mess. And in every single one of those, he's been a plus defender. He's been like a live wire athlete who can break out in transition or did a tip dunk at basically any time has been a really dogged driver. And like a smart facilitator to the LeBron part of this, within the context of whatever position he's playing at any given point in time, and whether there's space or not,

he's just one of these guys who I think is going to help everyone around him make more sense. And that is not going to change. What is going to change is probably get a little more confident with the shooting over time. I've already seen over the course of this year, like night and day, between who he was as a three-point shooter early in the season to now. I just have zero doubt that he's going to be a good three-point shooter in time. And so my comp for him right now, based on everything we've seen, is the best parts of Jimmy Butler and the best parts of Paul George mashed up together.

Because I feel like you see a lot of the arrhythmic stuff that makes Jimmy Butler so good and the smooth athletic stuff that made Paul George so good. And if you can do all of that at the same time while being the competitor that he is, that's going to be a hell of a player. I'm glad you mentioned the fluidity because that's the one thing that really jumped out to me. I think the comps he was getting coming out of college, you heard a lot of Tatum, you heard a lot of Kauai Leonard. I think to a certain extent just because we compare all bigger wing score types to those guys,

because those really are the template for modern wing scores, if not Paul George. But the way that he's just stringing things together almost so naturally is really jumped out to me. And if anything, after he got through the first 10 or so games of playing Point Cooper, feels like everything has just been like on a string for him in a way that I wasn't expecting from any rookie, let alone a guy his age. And then on top of that, the scoring of late, especially post-Anth Anthony. Davis trade. So in the six games since before the injury that just occurred, 49, 34, 36, 32, 1427. It's just like, he just kind of just bursts off into 30 like it's nothing. And now he's getting

the opportunity to do so because there aren't a lot of miles of the feed on that offense when he is healthy. But just like the high level stuff is just really coming quickly for him. So what I had down here, because I was like, Kyle, I was like, I started to look back onto some pretty historic comps. have hardo George Gervin and now I don't really have a ton of like just experience watching Gervin but just from highlights and I went back and watched some more. There's just like to talk a little if you if you'd like. Please. Yeah. Does that feel off base? I don't think he's as like slinky elastic as George Gervin, but I think he is way, way more physical. You know, we in the guide that we're going to be doing just to spoil it one of the, one of the terms that I brought up a lot over the

years. It's just been one of my little bar room things I say about players is tuxedo score. George Gervin is the Hall of Fame one-of-one tuxedo score. He was like, I'm going to avoid you and score over you and make it look good. Cooper is, Cooper has a lot more MFER than him. Like, I'm going to like hit you in the mouth. There was a play that I clipped out that was, you know, one of the things that really translated that has, he's found a way to sort of work towards it translating for him. And it's his, he is this interesting overhanded short mid range middle game that is not a lot of guys have where he can get to the basket. He's got a great left hand through contact to the basket. He'll try to dunk on you if he can. He has all of those

things. But Cooper, I was worried about him sort of prepping his driving lanes. And he does this interesting thing where, and I'll get to the clip in a second, but he kind of attacks you with one dribble and then he hits you with his back. And he attacks you with another dribble and he hits you with his back. And he just kind of does that over and over. And he's gotten really good to speak what Rob was talking about. Like, he's sort of created this language of movement to get to his spots for himself. And that's kind of the thing that he's figured out. And I clipped out this thing.

They were playing the Celtics the other night. Granted, that didn't go super well. But he had Jalen Brown on him, you know, and Cooper is a teenager. Jalen Brown was up in his shit trying to, like, bump him, like, bother him. And Cooper was like, I'm going to hit you with my back. And then at one point, and this is just like a classic vet thing, Brown just kind of put his arm on him, just ever so slightly, but Jalen Brown putting his arm on him

is going to be different than, you know, any of the three of us putting, like strong man. And he hit him. And Cooper without being like delayed, distracted, bothered was just like, hit the arm in stride,

was not bothered and into kind of corkscrewed into his little 15 footer. I think that that play is kind of a microcosm to me of him learning to play through the contact, deal with the pressure, get to his spots in the NBA. And I just, I think that is the beginning point for him and everything else.

Like you were saying, the three-point shooting, I think it's going to get there. But yeah, for comps, yeah, would you guys want to comment on that part of it before I get to my comp? Well, I just think as far as players go, you can't get downhill as often as he does without that ability to play through contact. And it's something that we look at a lot of young players who come in and wait for that part of their game to develop. When are they going to be able to push through, especially as a teenager or someone who's coming in at 20? when are they going to have the body type to play through that sort of physicality? That it's already baked into what he does, I think just sets him up for incredible success because he's already getting to the basket a lot.

He's already getting to the free throw line a lot. When those things are givens, everything else feels like gravy. I went back and looked at my comp cloud and the guide. I do like the Jimmy Butler, Paul George kind of thing. I think both of those guys were probably more solid handlers. Granted, Jimmy was a little older. we're a little older when the time they got in. I'm sticking toward, I'm leaning away from the Sean Marians,

and my tweak of my of the guide would be, I'm leaning away from the Sean Marians, even though I do think he has some of those qualities and the Carolinkos. I think he's just probably more in the Pippin Tatum. I'm sticking with that, honestly. I think in the Pippin, which is different names for the same thing, honestly, I think when we're talking about just big forwards, who can kind of do things.

I still kind of wonder about his offensive ceiling, where I'm like, I think the best version, of Cooper is going to be playing next to like a hyperscorer where like the passing and the things like the things that he adds I think he's going to be like a high high version of that archetype but I mean he's given a lot of pause that any kind of doubt that you might have about him being like an offensive superstar or number one but we'll see yeah the Pippin one is interesting too because I thought about that as well I almost wonder if Pippin was allowed to have like the baseball Jordan year from the start if we would got something closer to

Yeah, go ahead. Can I attack something on? To be fair, I think people when they think about Pippin, they think about perpetual number two. I think his specific context is such a unique one in history where in any other multiverse, Scotty Pippin would have been a number one on a really good team. He was the number two on a team that won six titles out of 10. So when you say that he's a Scotty Pippen, I think people take that as a slight sometimes, but it's just like every other iteration he's playing next to arguably the

go. And then like you were saying, Justin, and I'll get off the stage here. When that year where Jordan didn't play, Pippin almost won the fucking MVP. So I just wanted to qualify that that is not an insult to Cooper flag at all. Like if he becomes peak Scotty Pippen, that is a hell of a basketball player. Yeah. And I think that's ultimately where the conversation kind of nets out is he's not just good, but like how good are we talking about? Are we talking like future top 10? Like if, we were to completely reshuffle the league, how quickly, if you're to do basically trade value, like, how quickly are you taking Cooper? It's like probably Wemby at one. I guess Shea, considering that he's still young enough, but then contract comes into play there. Like,

are we getting to Cooper in like the three to four range? Or Rob, like, when does Cooper start to factor in in terms of like just actual guys you want to start a franchise with? I think you would get there pretty quickly, especially as you get into some of the more risk-averse propositions, right? If you're talking about guys who have super high upside, but you don't necessarily know how bad they could be or how mediocre they could be, I'm not worried about any of that stuff with Cooper. I have my doubts that Cooper Flagg will ever be one of the three best players in the NBA. But I feel incredibly confident he will inevitably be in that like seven to 10 range. And it could happen really, really quickly for him. And so that's where like an Aunt Edwards is still going to go

before him just based on the upside alone. Obviously, Wemby is in that category. You would think a healthy Jason Tatum would go ahead of him. Probably Tyreys Halliburton still, I would think, based on age. And then you get into, you know, Cade or Brunson or those kinds of conversations. But I just think Cooper could very quickly become the kind of player who, yeah, you don't remodel your entire franchise around because his game is so flexible. And that will always be something that makes him a little more understated.

But he's just going to be so valuable to winning teams for a really long time. time. Well, despite his long-term trajectory, I think it's looking possible, if not likely, that he might not win rookie of the year. We'll see if and when he comes back. But we need to talk about Connipple because I was looking through some of the stats. I know he was good. I know the Hornets have been good in large part because of his combination with Miller and

Lamello. But I didn't realize it was like practically one of the best rookie seasons in history. So right now, best rookie true shooting percentage ever. of all time, best effective field goal percentage in history of all time. No rookie has ever attempted eight threes a game. And in fact, if you drop it down to five threes a game, which is still pretty like, it's a lot, but we see that all the time now, but obviously more of a modern convention in terms of letting guys shoot that many. So five three is a game, but over 40% from three, there's only been three other guys. It's been Keegan Murray, it's been Halliburton,

and it's been Landry Shamet. So, specialists in Halliburton, who is kind of shuttled into a specialist role, and Khan is shooting at like 44, 45%, like, it's pretty like unbelievable stuff we're seeing right now. I mean, he just looks like an all-time shooter growing up right in front of us. And I say that as kind of the baseline of what he's going to be as a pro, because he also handles the ball so much. He's also such like a good connector and a good competitor. I still think the Cooper swell in terms of the voting will come, especially if he comes back and continues on the tear that he was on. But you really can't dispute the sort of rookie season con has had.

I mean, it's been illuminating in terms of his potential, but it's also just been awesome to see as a young player right now. Yeah, it's funny to think about Cooper with the Hornets, like thinking about context again, it's like what they're being asked to do. I was going to comment on the three-point thing. I mean, it's interesting that some of those guys that we think of as the elite all-time shooters don't show up, because. because, you know, Clay and Steph hadn't even benefited from the movement that they ultimately started in terms of their stats when they were rookies.

You know, it's like the volume of threes that they were taking at that point where, so Khan is just kind of paying them homage, I guess, with this in a way. But, yeah, I think just speaking to when I'm looking back at his game and the arc of like seeing him initially in high school and then college and you just kind of measuring your expectations from level to level and what you expect, I think one of the things as it pertains to his shooting that I underestimated and probably, you know, not probably, I definitely didn't account for is he translated in terms of the speed and the dynamism of the types of shots that he can take. Like he's shooting it quicker than I ever would have expected. And maybe some of the plotting kind of nature last year of Duke was like they were like the monsters.

They were gigantic, huge front line. They just played a different style. And it really was a big contrast between contrast, between the way that they played and the way that I did that just for Rob, and the way that the Hornets are playing. Like, you know, Duke was slow, pounded inside, big. And the Hornets are just all over the place,

crazy, crazy, crazy. And he's answered that in a way, like, what's the limit on the shooting now? That, I think, has been really, really impressive. Like, he's just been so off the charts with the efficiency. I also think the fact that he's so compact I don't know how strong he is. I don't know about what is rippling abs are looking like underneath the jersey,

but he's just so sturdy that they're able to use him in pick and pop situations and they go to it. I think whenever they really need a bucket, and you can see it. And it's just such a devastating play, especially because of Miller out there. And when Lamello out there is just so much creation and shooting, it's just like, where do you pick your poison? So I have down here, again, I'm digging into the past just because I think clay is like an obvious one. but if anything, I don't remember Clay having that sort of on the bounce game, but also just like that same sort of like physicality kind of baked into what he does just yet.

I have modern Chris Mullen here. And I know it's the we're not doing cross racial comms here. So it's a little bit of an easier one. But I just feel like Mullen blended a lot of those things. And if he had been able to shoot as much as modern players are, I almost feel like he would have been a little bit more Connie. How do you think Con would look with the flat top? Do you think he could pull it off?

I was just thinking that. Yeah, I'm sure somebody will Photoshop that. Did you see the Instagram photo that the Hornets put out of him growing up where he had, he at one point had like Harry Potter Coke bottle glasses? I was like, man. I really. It's almost like a modern flat top, though. It's just like, wow.

Yeah. I wish he was storing glasses. Yeah. But yeah, modern Chris. Lysick maybe. Yeah. Okay. I do think you're.

You're hitting on a JV in terms of it's got to be like the touch and the shooting and the finesse, but also the toughness that comes with being a mullin type. I went sonics for some reason with my comp and I said 75% Ray Allen, 25% Nick Collison. How do we feel about that? The midsection thing. That was one of the hard things about, you know, because when I was looking at him coming out of college, I was like, okay, this is a movement shooter that can add some pick and roll, but those guys just aren't normally built like con and that was what was so difficult.

I'm going to just kind of go back and criticize my own cowardice from last fall where Justin, you might even remember this. I was like writing about how I thought he should play point guard for Duke. And I was like watching him and I said he kind of has some like Devin Bookery things the way that he plays when he's in the midrange. And I came off of that when it came time for the guide where I was just like, you don't have the courage to do that. And I didn't, you know, talking to myself.

I was a coward. I think he does have some Booker to his game when he gets in the middle of the floor because I think his technique is so sharp. I'd take Wally Zurbiac out of my comp cloud. That was just a white guy move probably. But Gordon Hayward, I still would stick that in there a little bit. I'd add a little more, a little sprinkle of clay in there, obviously, with the level of elite shooting. But I would sprinkle some more, I would sprinkle some Booker in there. I really think he has that in his game. And I think he has self-creation upside that is going to change the conversation even more in the future. I think that's what's made him so, like, consistently

good and undeniable this year are the Bookery Gordon Hayward elements, right? You're right, Kyle, that it's like the context in which he is a good shooter are so diverse and he's able to get to so many different spots off the dribble that makes sense for him. That's just the kind of score you're never going to be able to fully take away. And it's the one that every good, like, playoff caliber team in the modern NBA really, really needs. Booker, if he could actually shoot. Yes. Somehow came into the league as a shooter only and now 31% from three.

It's always bizarre. One of the great, like, what the hell's going on with that ever? Like, the optics just don't. It's a beautiful shot. And he always makes like 33% of his threes. It's baffling. Just doubled too much in practice runs. You just couldn't work on his game.

I do worry in terms of the rookie of the year race for Cooper that the game's played distance is starting to widen into a bit of a gap. So right now, Flagg has played 49. Knieppel has played 60. not something that you totally hold against a rookie. And if anything, Rob, I believe there aren't the same sort of restrictions on games played for rookies as there are big boy players, the veterans. But, you know, if Cooper, if Khan is playing 70 games for a playing team and Cooper kind of

just builds down the stretch, isn't able to play as much, maybe doesn't have as many of those Heisman moments as we've talked about. I don't know. Kyle, do you find yourself one way? or another. I personally think Khan, if we were to shut down the race today, would win it. Where do you fall? I mean, I think the context thing is if you were going to go through and say like what spoils the broth of certainty with with Khan, it's like Cooper's being asked to do a whole lot more. Cooper is also, Con is underrated, I would say defensively. I don't think, you know, he's being

deprived of like his true credit as like an assignment guy or anything like that. He's fine. He holds up better, I think, than people, like, if you go, if you like go, he's one of those, I think this is the level you want to get to if you're an offensive guy like con is if you go out of your way to like change what you do to go at him, you run the risk of like, we just wasted a few possessions in a row because he's actually holds up better than like I think con's going to get to that spot. But Cooper is just more dynamic and he's always going to have more of a, he's going to have more tools on that front. So I say all that to say, those are the sort of things that make you, you wonder about it. But cons. efficiency and he and he's contributing to winning i think and that and i think that he intrinsically has been one of the key things that has really spun this hornets thing into orbit in a way that's just that you know i was talking about the self-creation stuff i think one of the big things too is that he he can't be he's very steady people say that a lot about him but he's also steady in just the the lanes that he takes to get to the things that he does you just don't see a lot of errant like what was he doing there you don't see that with con con cons just like i do these like

eight things and I have that option in any given moment and I'm going to go to those pitches when I need to. So all that to say, I think I think Con deserves it at the end of the day, give him a slight edge. I think there's also like what is this race actually about in terms of voting versus what should it be about. And what it will be about is like reputation for Cooper versus history with Khan. Right. Like if he's still setting those kinds of high watermarks historically, that's going to be the argument. Whereas I think it probably should be like versatility, his focus a little bit. It should be like,

I think the defensive part of it should be a bigger part of that conversation because Cooper has been like far and away a better defender, I would say overall. But I just don't think many people who vote for rookie of the year care that much about how their rookies play defense. And so we're going to end up with,

do you want the guy who was the number one overall pick or do you want the guy putting up the numbers no one ever has before as a first year player? So they're not over 500 right now, the Hornets. But they do are, there are only like two games back of the magic for seventh in the play-in race. That's crazy.

And there are only three and a half games back of the Sixers for six plays. I think if he gets them into the sixth spot, if we're into like the big boy playoffs from the jump, then it becomes an arguable. And if we're talking about like likelihood, like they're playing better than most teams in the NBA, especially a team like the Sixers that's hobbling right now

because Embed isn't in there. I think it's possible. That's the type of loud thing that you could probably can't ignore where it's just like, this is one of the best rookies of all time. Maybe it'll get more national TV games. Maybe they'll just get more publication over the back end of the season. Then it becomes, I think, a real deal thing.

But you're probably right. Ultimately, it's a PR war. All right. Should we go to Dylan Harper now? I think the big question with Harper, if you just want to start here off the bat, is should the spurs have drafted Khan over Harper? Now, I have my personal opinion about that.

I don't know if anyone wants to take the floor first here. this is an excruciating one. Like Harper over time in terms of what he projects into is an incredibly exciting player and maybe exactly what it is the Spurs need two years from now. And I think part of the reason we're even having this conversation is because the Spurs are proven to be so good so quickly

that all of a sudden a rookie con feels like somebody who could make a really significant difference for this team on a postseason run. I don't know that you can forecast for that though. even when you have Wemby, even when you have a roster you really like, could the Spurs have reasonably gone into this season expecting to be like a top five team on both sides of the ball in contention for the Western Conference? I don't think they could have just like put that in Penn.

Yeah, I mocked the Spurs to take, not like made fun of them, but I mock draft them, drafted them at Taking Kahn. And one of the things that we kind of came off of was he just doesn't, he doesn't fit the archetype of the type of player that they have been targeting. recently, which is really, really wide, versatile, defensive tools, big, long, switchable kind of thing. Like, so you could see why, you could see it coming, why they didn't do it. If you just wanted to just like imagine plugging him in with this Spurs team, I mean, yeah, it would, it would work, absolutely.

I think there are other arguments, though, too, for Harper where it's like, and we can get into this, where it's like, Harper gives them another timeline in a way, if certain, if things play out another way because I think from just watching him in just this past week, I thought that he showed some flashes that were really, really like holy moly type stuff.

But it's also interesting to see the think of Harper with the Hornets. I mean, like they don't have a physical downhill guy kind of like him. That's been kind of their problem. Yeah. So I ultimately end up with Harper where I think the conversation started with him, which is how are you fine lineups

in which he and Castle can really coexist together. So Harper plus Castle, it's only been 356 minutes. The defense is good because the defense overall for the Spurs is quite good. I think you just have so much personnel, including having Castle on the floor. The offense is pretty middling. It's 111 offensive rating, so not great. But the thing is when you take Castle and Fox off the floor, which is 300 minutes, the offense is incredible with just Harper. It's 128.8.3 offensive rating. It's a plus 12.8 just overall net rating. And so to me, it's like, I think Harper long term projects into the player that we all thought he was. I think he's like a big downhill creator.

I have O'KC Hardin as the comp because that's just the obvious one. But the at the basket finishing is just much more Kyrie-esque special. I'm able to contort and like just time in ways that like few players can. But it's just like what you need right now versus what you need down the road. And it's just like I still think if you're the Spurs, you take the. long-term bet because I think Harper could be special in an archetype that I just think matters more than Khan, who's probably best in conjunction with the guys that he's playing with now, honestly. Yeah, especially when the right now is already so good.

Like, there's just nothing to argue with about the Spur's current circumstances where even if you're taking a slight compromise now for a huge payoff potentially in a couple of years, the Spurs can weather that. And they can weather it while still competing with the best teams in the West. So I like the Harden Comp. I think that's kind of where we need to be oriented. Like, who gets downhill as easily and as seamlessly as Dylan Harper does? Because already he's one of those guys who's just impossible to keep in front of you.

And maybe this is just the serendipity of seeing them go head to head on Sunday. But like, big old Jalen Brunson is what I think of a lot of times when I watch Dylan Harper play. Like, there's something about the stop and start to his game, the way that you just kind of like. Is that an apostrophe or a word? Specifically. Well, it's got to be an apostrophe first of all. That's a very chow. Comp cloud, yeah.

I just, I think the bobs and weaves of Dylan Harper's driving style, to me, read as very Jalen Brunson. He's not using it to the same like pump fake, jab step, like draw foul ends as of yet, but he's using it to get to the basket and finish just as easily as Brunson does.

As we often do, I went down, you know, the basketball reference, season finder thing here because I was just trying to imagine, I was looking for comps in all the right places here, hopefully. I was just thinking about like over 20 points. Tell me if you think this is crazy.

I mean, over 20 points, I think conservatively, over four and a half assists. He's been getting near that in like 20 minutes. So, and over like one and a half steals, which we can get to the defense. And just the names that show up on that list are like holiest of holy kind of guards. Like he's,

the downhill stuff. What's interesting is pre-ACL Ron Harper shows up multiple times on that list. Okay. I thought that was pretty interesting. He, and if you talk to, that's one I'm not as. educated on me. You talked about people who followed the league or just players. They were like

pre-ACL Ron Harper was a bad, bad boy. Just the lowness of the way that he plays, I think comes into play on both ends of the floor. You all remember those, this is a very random pool. You always remember those Pontiac commercials from like the early 2000s? Not expecting that at all, but yes, keep going. The wider is better. Do you remember those Pontiac Grand Prix from the early 2000s that were like 80 feet wide and it was like really low to the ground. Let me tell you. I agree.

That to me. Don't der real. Sorry. No, I mean, the way that he is, he is a perpetual low man wins just at all times. Like if you watch him get to the basket, he's just so strong and wide. And then I was talking to somebody this weekend about this. When he gets into the paint, we were talking about like anticipatory. processing when you're in the paint

versus reactive. He can just get into the paint and be presented with like throwing a curve ball by the defense and he's so stable and strong and wide that he can like make really good decisions and he has a wide vocabulary like getting off the ball.

His strength and wiggle get into the basket to me I want to just sprinkle I'm sticking with the recipe thing. I want to sprinkle a little Dwayne Wade on there because I just think the hard thing is. hard because it's like Hardin's shooting upside, I think, was higher when he was younger, wouldn't you guys say? That's where it kind of tapers off because what's funny is like I was, I was thinking back

of trying to make these comps and I was like, well, Hardin might not have this like just athletic burst that I think Harper did. But then I went back and watched a bunch of old Hardin clips. I was like, no, actually Hardin kind of got after it. He had it. Like the best like transition. Yeah, he was just like, he was still getting downhill, but he was much more slender and was less force and more just like Gile and craft. But the shooting was there immediately. I think that's the big thing with Harper. So he's only at 25% from three. I guess at what point you get concerned about this? I think as a rookie, you kind of have a little bit of a leash. Like, yeah, you're finding things out. We kind of knew about this going into the draft. Obviously a concern, probably the biggest concern with him

and Castle sharing the court together. But like, do you like at a certain point start to worry about that trickling into who we will be long term? I think I don't get worried about it until I see it in the playoffs with him. It would be, you know, it's different for every player, but when you're bringing this much to the table already, I need to see the way that postseason defenses are going to cheat off of him or Castle to kind of compromise

what the Spurs are doing. If it has like a real cost to it, because if it's just this theoretical thing where, yeah, neither these guys can really shoot, but they're also really active off the ball, but also Wembe is drawing so much attention and it just kind of works, then I really don't mind so much. And I think

every team can kind of like find its balance and its formula and it's a little bit of magic to kind of fake its way through some of those things. But if it comes to be a real problem, then yeah, we have to have a conversation about the future of that backcourt and whether either of them project as any kind of reputable shooter where when they don't have the ball, they're able to project as some kind of threat. If you made me guess right now, like at volume, if he had the opportunity, what his percentage would be, I would say it'd probably be like 34, 33. I'd say that's like the good. I don't expect him to become like a 38 to end up. I don't see that happening.

And is that mostly off the dribble stuff, Kyle? Do you think in time or will he be just like 34 spot up? Depends on who he's playing with. I mean, if he keeps playing with this alignment, there's going to be a lot more spot up. But, you know, if, and you saw this in college, I mean, he was such a crazy without any spacing. It'll probably be better on that front. But teams would just start walling him up because he was just so elite at getting to the basket. And you mentioned the playoffs, agree or disagree with this. I think I'm going to say right now, there's going to be a game in the playoffs where teams are going to be scheming for Fox and for Win Me and for Castle. He is so talented.

There's going to be a nuclear Dylan Harper playoff game where he just has a one-off and we're like, holy shit, they have another potential first team all-MBA, maybe even flirt with MVP-level talent on their team. That is going to happen, I feel like. All right, why don't we take a break? We come back, talk about some of these other rookies. The Ringer NBA show is presented by Fandul. Basketball fans, it's almost time for the Super Trade Day sweepstakes. Fandul is all about those three-pointer moments, and on March 3rd, that's 3-3, you'll have your own shot at a big win from downtown.

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restrictions apply, including any token expiration in max wage or amount. Gambling problem, call 1-800-Gambler or call 1-888-7-8-7-7-7 or visit cCPG.org slash chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Tommy Hilfiger. Here's what happens when West Coast relaxation meets modern prep in Tommy Hilfiger's spring collection. Think light-washed denim and new relaxed silhouettes paired with oversized. trenches and chorecoats with heritage inspired touches.

Then take those rugby and polo shirts you love and elevate them with rich cable textures and new Tommy crests. And when you throw in easy, breezy light layers and linen essentials, you've got laid back sophistication. Explore more at Tommy.com. All right. We passed over number three in the draft, VJ. Edgecom. I'll just get right to my comp, which is what if Scoot Henderson was good?

Wait, say that one more time for those of us who have been, you know, rebutting you on Scoot for weeks now. I did this just for you. Thank you. I just think about, especially the way Scoot is playing now where he's a little bit more on, like, the swing pass and then doing his movement. You could talk about Dwayne Wade and Donovan Mitchell, where the other guys that come to mind just because of the way his dribble kind of swoops. And I think with Wade, there's sort of that physicality to him that makes for the obvious comp. But I don't know. It just feels like.

he has that combination of the shooting, which is tapered off some, but I think is still very much there, but also that, like, physical downhill, I'm going to dunk over your head sort of persona that, like, I think you're hoping to bring out of Scoot.

So it's nice that it ended up somewhere. I'm glad to see it. I'm glad to see it, too. I mean, I think it's almost more like the athlete that people told us Scoot Henderson was, and then you saw him in real time with Geleague Ignite, and you're like,

yeah, this guy is, like, big and physical, but he doesn't have, like, even as far as big and physical guards go, like the Eric Bledso burst. You know, like he didn't really have that pop first step. He's just kind of like a sort of savvy manipulator who's finding his way into the league.

We all hope the best for Scoot Henderson. I think what VJ shows in the open court off of like even just at a standstill launching into drives definitely is more evocative of the Dway Donovan Mitchell kind of explosion. For me, I had Monta Ellis with his priorities straight. I think there's something about, Like, I have one.

I have Monti below, but this is wild. We're doing for Vijay. I can't believe we got multiple Montes in these comps. But I think there's something about Vijay that asks you to grab that theoretical. Because he's already right now, like a really disciplined player for a winning team. Like he has slotted in, found his role, is able to play off of Maxie and Embed so easily that now I'm just wondering, like, what does he look like when they really let him run? when they really let the future version of the Sixers be a Maxie and VJ team to its fullest extent or whatever the roster looks like at that point in time, that's thrilling.

And I think it's thrilling in a way where he has all this athletic explosion. He does have that shot. He's also the kind of player where I just trust him to do the right things. And that's just not true of a lot of guys when they come into the league. I think a lot of my questions coming in are still there, but I think some of the things that were the baseline of his proposed value have been higher quicker in terms of like I think like open shots. I think the shooting trailed off has trialed off a little bit, but just the basic simple things that he does, like attacking a

straight line drive. Granted, he's getting into the lane, getting his little snake, dribble, pull up stuff. The problem for him right now, I think, is for the self-creation upside is the craft during the moments where he can't just kind of be shot out of a game. A lot of his is like, like a binary of he shot out of a cannon. Does he get to the spot before the other person? Like there has to be a slowdown in between in the moments where that's not happening, where he shows that he has responses to like defenses loading him up or playing to his strengths and forcing him to make decisions and things like that.

Like I just think some of that craft needs to come out for him. I had, I still think that the Ola Depot like sliding doors, Lidipo, like if he hadn't had his career derailed, mixed with Derek White to me, where it's like, if you're hedging a little bit on the primary stuff that I was talking about, if you think, like, okay, maybe those things don't blossom into full elite status, but he's a very good next to another guard player. He can, you know, defend just about anybody, like hit open shots. You know, that's like an all, that's a, how many times was Ola Dipo an All-Star? It was more than once, right? Twice, I believe. I think he made it twice, yeah.

So you think, okay, once, yeah, maybe he does it two or three more times, cross with like an Olympian winner. I think that's a really good player. I mean, there are people who think I'm crazy in that sense, and they think, okay, he's a star. I'm kind of, I'm almost there. I just think he's going to be a really, really good winning player. Yeah, I think that's my question overall is like, what is the scale here?

What does he get into next year, two years down the road? Are we talking about like a true dueling banjo situation with Maxi, where they're just like trading off who's operating the offense. Is it like we're getting the point where we have to stagger them because he's such a good creator? But like right now it feels like a lot of just pure muscle memory and just instinct driving a lot of his best qualities. I do wonder what the next level for that is.

Whereas like I've already seen Harper and Khan and Cooper like kind of think the game at a level where I feel a little bit more comfortable about the translation into that next level. Yeah, I think it is the thinking of the game aspects. I also think he's one of these guys. we don't really say this very often because everyone is so schooled to death now. But like an offseason or two in the lab working on that one-on-one stuff, like this is what separates a Dwayne Wade from an athletic two-guard who has all of the gifts at their disposal.

Like Dwayne Wade turned himself into one of the most schooled and fundamental guards in modern NBA history. And that's a high bar for anyone to get to. But like there is room between the instinct VJ is playing with now as you're talking about Justin and getting to a level where he's able to. to create one-on-one in mid-range where he's able to get to his shots with a consistency that isn't reliant on just being the most explosive player on the court. I still believe in Scoot.

Let's get a second. I was getting on the record. I was watching your eyes squint and smile a little bit. I was like, what is he getting ready to say? I was just trying to shoot that horn in that. I appreciate it. It's been a bad road trip. I'll say that.

Yeah, just to speak that a little bit. Shooting like 29% for weeks. And you're like, yeah, it's just the road trip. 10 games this season. Settle down there. It's rough. Put your pit fork away. I'm just simply saying he hasn't been very good yet.

I hope he's good, but he hasn't been very good yet. I want to say something not about Scoot, about VJ Edgecombe. Is that allowed? Rob made me remember. I think, to be fair, to VJ, we do this a lot where the age really matters. Like, Dwayne Wade played, I think, and he had a knee injury year. So he was, God, he was a little bit older. I don't have it in front of me.

It's probably 22-ish when he came to the league, and VJ, is earlier on his NBA timeline. So if you're talking about like a handling leap and you're trying to measure how pessimistic you are about that happening, I think you have to consider that. So he's a chance. And he's a worker from everything I've heard.

Yeah. All right. Let's go to Ace Bailey now. Finally getting to really see him do stuff because for a while he was pretty deferential and kind of buried because there was so much talent in Utah that they had to make sure to only play certain amount of minutes because they were too good.

Didn't really get a lot of shine for Ace, but he is getting opportunities now. He had 23 against the Pelicans. He's fifth among rookie scores since January 1st, which feels kind of notable at the very least. What's funny watching some of the heights, a lot of it is just jumpers, just especially in that Pelicans game

where it's just like coming off of curls, just jump or just putting it up. And so what he does? I wanted to go Richard, yeah, I wanted to go with Richard Lewis, but it does, it feels like a little bit more of a stretch.

If anything, it's just more isolation MPJ is what we're getting, which as we're seeing in Brooklyn, which is kind of that player is still a very good player and someone who I think will have success climbing on to an existing structure there. And I think that's what you're hoping for if you have Lowry and now Jaron

and some of the other guys they're bringing in there. George too. Let me counter you as far as Comps go, straight up Danny Granger. How do we feel about Ace Bailey as Danny Granger? I thought about that. I thoughticism-wise, for sure.

For sure. And I think it's like they are reliant on their jumpers and the combination of like the size of the shooting, right, that very specific interplay where they're not the most explosive, but what they're able to get to because of that combination can be pretty profound.

They have a similar build, although Granger, of course, like, I think a little more physical, a little stockier, and maybe Ace will grow into that player over time. Stiffer, I think. But also, I think it's a fair barometer of, like, Danny Granger,

one-time All-Star. Do we think Ace Bailey, like, where would you put the over-under for Ace Bailey in terms of All-Star selections? I think he has a chance to be a really special score, a really productive one for a long time. But is he ever going to hit that next threshold

where he's regularly making All-Star games? I honestly don't really know. Yeah, if you were going over, under one and a half, I'd say one would be like a good. Like, that's probably my expectation for him is, you know, really, really strong score, who on the right year, you know, the stars aligned and he gets to,

no, Granger was in the, we had Granger in the guide. I've always had MPJ as stylistically, and you've seen that a lot with Utah this year as opposed to, like, his team last year where, you know, Will Hardy has gone out of his way to sort of outsource all the things, everything that surrounds him getting to his shot, the things that were like long and deliberate and him, you know, you know, stutter ripping a few times and just slowing down the Rutgers offense. It was always just like, what, we need to, we could probably trim that away.

And they've done a good job of doing that. With the MPJ thing, I kind of balanced him between Jane McDaniels and MPJ always, because I think that ACE is. His upside as a defender is pretty high. Like, he's pretty explosive. He can get off his feet really quickly. I just don't think that stylistically, he's like MPJ. I just don't think that he's the same level of shotmaker. That's something that I've come off of.

Like, I think he's just not as much. MPJ is a shotmaker. He's a pure shooter, though, I think, in a way that Ace probably isn't. I don't know how you all feel about that. He's a good shooter. Just I don't think he's at that level. Yeah. But if you're kind of MPJ and kind of Jaden McDaniels,

aren't you just like the best player in the world? No. Is that not like a Hall of Fame player? Like if you have the defense of Jaden McDaniels but the shooting or at least the scoring of Michael Porter Jr.? I don't think that he's going to reach the same, I don't know if he's the same level of like defensive process. Or he's a little like he can kind of like fall asleep in centerfield

looking at the dandelions a little bit at times. I think that's where you lost me on the McDaniels cop. So I'm saying, I just think body type. You know, you're looking at those types of things. I also had Rudy Gay in mind a little bit there where you're like, this guy's really talented. And it's like he can trick you into thinking that he's capable of like all-star level production. But it's kind of like never finds a home.

We haven't started on that yet with Ace. I don't know that he's going to end up being a journeyman like that. But he's somewhere in that cluster of players for me still. Well, it's interesting because it almost feels like he's getting shoehorn into more of a Jaden McDaniel's track than we previously thought. because part of the reason of getting to Utah seem to be to explore the studio space and quickly, he's left with like one open spot and it is for more of a three and these type of guy if they're going to go along with the projected core four that they have there. And so I'm curious how that

all works out, but I will say to your earlier points, I have found that his willingness to buy in to be a little bit farther ahead than what you were talking about pre-jaf, Kyle. If anything, like one of the comps I have down here is like what if a bunch of potential brand and Ingrams went to a scared straight, like, jail cell. And they're like, this is what can happen to you if you just take a bunch of stupid mid-range jumpers. Just step back and play defense. I appreciate it.

I think, like, I do think this kind of situation and that, like, there's really only one gap for you to fill with this roster right now and it is a little more 3 and D than Ace Bailey might like is a healthy thing for him. Like, this is a good part of the process. If he comes out of this with a little more Jade McDaniel, to his game, everyone involved is going to be better off for it. I just don't know how much I believe that

scared straightness to like really stick with him. Or when left his devices, will he always Rudy gay it up? Grimm always had a little more, he had a little more handle to him, a little more passing game to him chops on that front, I think, but that is a hilarious. You guys are killing it with the

hell yeah. All right, let's go to Trey Johnson now. I've been impressed by the touch. So I think Khan gets a lot of the pub and rightfully sell about his shooting range. But I feel like Johnson, especially as the season has gone on, has really displayed the type of shooting touch overall that I think really kind of sold a lot of people.

I would say I've been surprised by the passing. He's also like okay as a defender, especially lately, which I think is something, because earlier at times I feel like you just didn't have any interest in that. I think the finishing is really where I'm concerned here. So I wrote down Bradley Beal, which is kind of an obvious one. But I asked my friend who is a pretty close watcher of the Wizards. And he said the floor is Lou Williams and the ceiling is Devin Booker to call back to Booker. Somewhere in that word cloud, it feels like Trey Johnson.

I don't know that anyone's floor is Lou Williams. Like, Lou Williams was in the league for a long time doing a very specific thing at a really high level. I think there's worlds in which Tray Johnson just doesn't really work where there's like enough, yes, he's very good at this very focused thing but where is the secondary appeal? Will it be as a finisher and a driver?

Will the passing evolve beyond just like kind of simple facilitation? Will he become a level of defender that demands that kind of respect that be like a true two-way player more so than just like a shooter who can kind of defend? I think he's in that gray area and I've loved watching him too.

I agree that he's come on stronger very hopeful for who Trey Johnson can be, hook him. But also, like, I haven't come to be a break. You can't claim hook them.

You and Justin are the same thing. You can't sit it out and then throw the card. I just reject that universally. You're just, you can't do it, Rob. How many of all,

I can, and I will continue to regardless of what you say. You're like, when does Texas play? Who's on the team? And then you're going to throw hook them at me?

Like, give me a break. They're dismissed. They're a group of future alumni. That's the way the University of Texas basketball works. How many college games did you go to when you were a student? I think over four years I went to two. Hell yeah.

Who's even on the team, then? So I miss Kevin Durant by a year. Otherwise, I think I would have been locked in the KD version of Longhorns. But yeah, it was more like DJ Augustine, Damien James, AJ Abrams. I mean, they had some players. They had some decent teams. But no Trey Johnson's. I got to say.

No, no. A little Avery Bradley, I think, maybe by towards the end, or maybe that was just after I was there. Okay, okay. I had Kenneth Fareed. That's about the only one. Not bad, Kai. He would have left us after a year in the NIL era,

but we're thankful for the experience. He really stuck out. No, in terms of the comps, I think you're hitting on it on like the gray kind of nether zone that Trey falls into where it's, he has the personality of kind of a boogie off the dribble. I almost triggered my dog sitting next to me, whose name is Boog. I tread lightly with that one. But he probably is someone who should be

his game in the way that he plays. You're talking about the finishing and the things, the inefficiencies, the challenges in his game. I think those problems sort of call for him to be kind of a technique wizard in the way that a con is where, you know, I think that he's going to have to become somebody who's really bought into those details because a lot of his shooting is like evasive. You'll see him, you know, back at tween, twin, tween. I've become one of those people that says tween, tween. And then he's like hopping to the left and backwards for like a harder shot. Like I think those types of things, you don't see Khan doing those types of things. Like it's a little more I'm finding my openings out on the courts. But I think he's really capable. I had,

for Trey, Michael Red and Ellen Houston were too ahead and the guide. Those would be great. OJ, he really reminds me of Michael Red. He always has. OJ, Michael Red, shout out NBA Live 2006. He was a killer on that game. Buddy Healed a little bit too is in there, I think. See, that's a wide range from Michael Red to Buddy Healed. Like, there's a lot in there.

Yeah? Getting them up. I mean. Well, no, I mean, one of those guys is getting them up in a way that can, like, support a playoffish team. And one of them is just like a guy who gets him up and gets benched a lot. So, you know, versions of the same thing, but versions were very different outcomes. I ended up with Randy Foy, but good, I guess also tapping into Wizards trauma. Randy Foy was like a pure PG, right?

Like a physical PG. Well, okay, so he's definitely wispier, for sure. Body type-wise does not align with Randy Ford. I think he's wholly different. Walk me through it, because to me he is... I'm just trying to give you shit. No, I mean, I said it. I thought he was more of like a physical PG type to get in the...

mid-range and he just couldn't shoot well enough to live that way. Like, he wasn't a movement shooter like, like Trey Johnson, was he? He was a, he became a movement shooter. I'm not talking about who he came into the league being, but who he ultimately became. And some of that's because of injury with Randy Floyd, too. But I think they share the same problem, which is those are two guys who are not exceptional NBA athletes who are just bursting by people to get to the rim on a regular basis. They're going to have to get clever with it if they're going to be finishers inside.

They're more scorers than passers, but they're also more shooters than all-around scores. And so again, it's like where does the all-around game come from for for anyone in Trey Johnson's kind of ilk? Let me ask you this broad question. Are you buying Trey Johnson's stock right now? How much does it cost? What's going to put me back? That's important. Yeah. It feels like you can get it on the cheap right now. Yeah, I'd be fine with it on the cheap. Like, I'm totally fine with the Wizards investing in the near-term future of his career. I'm just not banking on Trey Johnson to be a star. I'm buying because I think that, you know, he's still doing.

really young. I think that he he's the type of player that you can kind of stack on existing offense and make it more complicated. And I believe in his shot making. And I think once he sort of, I think once he starts to kind of weed out some of those things, like some of the dancing, the aimless dancing kind of stuff that he can get into at times,

I think he's going to become more of a movement shooter than a than a gerbill shooter creating for himself. You guys got very serious when I was like quibbling. about Randy Foy. Justin looked like he was like, oh, Kyle's like really starting shit here. I was just like broading you. You guys were like, oh.

Kyle, we take your ideas seriously. Yeah, I was honestly thinking about how to transition to the next second. That's okay. He was zoning out thinking about his next sealant foam that he had to buy for his house. No, you get the go board specific one. Come on. All right. On that note, why don't we take a break?

We'll come back to a little lightning round. All right. Let's get to the remainder of the top half of the draft. here. Let's start with the Pels guys. Fears and Queen have to do them together just because they're due at this point. Love it or leave it. I have fears as Amante Ellis, almost like a speedier Ellis. And then I can't get off of Zebo for Queen. I just can't not see him. I like both of those. I have for fears aspirational Jeff Teague in like a what do you do with all that speed kind of way. Like if he can- Is Jeff Teague not aspirational? That's what I'm saying. I'm saying I think

fears needs to aspire to be Jeff Teague. Like, that would be a nice outcome for him figuring out how to manifest all, like, the in-between parts of his game. As far as Queen goes, like, I keep going back to Shangoon, honestly. And I think it's like Alper and Shangoon with a little less defense and a little more sauce. I just, with fears, the shooting is a problem. It's tough. And then from there, you're like, oh, well, then the size becomes a problem.

And so, I don't know, I'm a little bit more mixed there. This is a weird time to talk about Queen because he's been diminished in the lineup for all these vets despite the fact that there's literally nothing else to play for for the pelicans if you talked about like what if we make a play in push i'm just like guys no one is buying this bullshit um just so this is a pretty bad time to be a pell's rookie optimist kyle but who are you seeing from these guys anything different from we talked about queen and earlier in the season um i would edit yeah them a little bit i still i had him in the jared bayless for fears Jared bayless devon Harris. Devin Harris, like, I think Danny and I were talking about that one last fall where it was like,

uh, he just, is, is he going to ultimately be somebody that you can invest in in terms of this is our guy, this is our starting guy, or is he going to kind of maybe recede to more of this is our, you know, guard that's in the seven, eight kind of spot in the rotation. It's hard to say how this is going to shake out for the pills. Um, because he was, he was a guy that I had a little lower and I, I kind of at the beginning of the year felt like that was, that was a miss for me because the way he was playing. But you were talking about the shooting and then the size, those two things were the worries. And I think they have kind of leveled. Maybe I'm somewhere in the middle and I'd split the difference.

For Queen, I had some bonus in there originally because you're trying to think of like connector, big guy, passer types. I would, I would edit it a little bit, take him out. I had Michael Green in, take him out. I don't know that he has like the pure scoring heart of Azibo. Like I think he's a facilitator. He really loves a facilitate. Boris Diao has been my guy for him forever, where it's just like Derek comes and goes.

And he's very, he can impact winning, I don't know, nights where he'll look like the most talented. Boris had knights like that, right? Where it's just like, is this guy the best player in the world? I think what a lot of these guys in this cloud have in common, though, is like even Zibo, an incredible mid-range player, a great post-up guy, good on the offensive glass when he could body you out of the way.

But similar to Derek Queen, not quite as good a contested finisher in the way you want. And I have a hard time with Queen knowing how much is the fact that their spacing is consistently awful versus the fact that he's not

like as big as you might want him to be for that player type. But he has to be a little better around the basket. Those two together, like defensively, I think is like a question too because it's like Derek has defensive questions.

And big time. That's something they're going to have to answer, I think. That's partly the Zbo thing, not only just like the size and I think seeks out physicality, especially when his confidence is going. Otherwise,

he tends to just kind of coast, but also just shies away from playing defense at all costs, which is also the Zbo comp there. All right, when we move along, let's do Yeager. I asked someone who watches him

pretty closely. Yeah. They said modern Hito, which I kind of liked. Now, the split, between twos and threes still is quite extreme. Like, I've never seen something like this before for a player is playing this regularly.

But I could definitely see the, like, upright, tall creator who is probably best shooting and orchestrating. Like, that sort of rough outline, the very least gives me a North Star for Yeager than I've had this season because it really is kind of tough to really carve out what he's going to be. If he's going to be this sort of like never walking into the paint sort of guy. Yeah, I found him to be utterly uncompable for that exact reason. It's like, is he a movement shooter? Is he a primary playmaker? Is he a secondary like wing facilitator? I have no idea what his best use case is at this point.

As far as Hedo goes, like, Hidu's dancing with the ball a lot at his best, like running heavy pick and roll. And the Nets just don't really use Yeager that way yet. And maybe they will in time. But it is a lot of stuff off the ball. The shooting is frankly better than I expected it to be this quickly. But as a point guard, he has like all of the vision, but not a lot of like the on ball traditional pick and roll opportunity. So I went with like young Joe Ingalls.

Like I don't know if you guys have seen like the like young Joe Ingalls like fresh out of like his professional debut in Australia where he has that kind of like similar wiry frame. I see a lot of that in in Yeager, frankly. Oh man. If he becomes Joe Ingalls, that would be incredible. From the guide, we had Kyle Anderson, Sean Livingston, Josh, like post injury, Sean Livingston, Josh Giddy. Just, I mean, just a lot of shooters who are not, the shooting is something that he's answered. You're absolutely right. Like, if he has time and he just won twos and has time to shoot it, he's knocked those down

in a better clip. And he has worked hard to kind of do that on his own from what I understand. He's an interesting player, though, like you were saying, Rob, where he's almost like a master accordion player who just happens to be in like a metal band. It's like he has this. Well, would listen, first of all. he has this incredible Jeffro Toll

Yeah Sort of yeah He has this incredible Pick and Roll like Acumen But he doesn't have the scoring To bolster it in a way That justifies him doing it

Like he's an incredible processor With the ball So he's just gonna have to answer Those questions inside the paint For those other things To blossom and pop Yeah All right Colin Murray Bowls

I have obviously Dremon Just for the physicality The ball center stuff But I have with Jacob Pertl's touch, because, like, his at the rim stuff has been kind of startling. So he's currently within three feet shooting about 70%. Yeah. Which is pretty great.

And then 56% overall from the floor. Well, let me pause you right there. I do think when he does shoot, it's very good. The problem is he has to, like, hold up his finger to the wind. And I'm talking about, like, two feet from the basket, turn around, make sure no one is behind him. Like, we just got to get CMB shooting layups, like attempting. them on a more regular basis.

But I think he can be a really good finisher. I'm not terrified of that prospect, but I just want to see him actually take more shots. Yeah, he's another one. He's interesting. He has all these great tools that you want to keep on the floor, but you've got to find some way for him to score to just survive and keep his head above water because he's a great defender.

He's very smart. One of the smartest defenders in this class, honestly, the way he sees and feels the game. He's another one. If he has like a two Mississippi, on a three, I'm like, that could go in. It might. But if it's a one, Mississippi, probably not.

Yeah, the Draymond stuff, it's, Draymond is kind of a pre, he's like one of those comp black holes. Like, the Syrett wrote something great, like the Draymond generation one time about how we just, we don't know what to do with these guys, so we just kind of lump them in. I mean, Draymond's as good as any,

Grant Williams, but Grant ended up being able to shoot the ball. Like, so I don't know. It's hard to find a good one for a C&B. I went with the Jonathan Isaac we were promised. How do we feel about that? He's physically really different than Jonathan Isaac, but... I mean, but in terms of, like, one, carries some of the same caveats.

Two, I think like Isaac at his best, to me, Colin Murray Boyles, just profiles as he's going to be one of the best defensive players in the world. I see that as like more of a matter of time, more of a matter of when than if. It's just about everything else, and can he bring that all together? Why don't we move along just to keep this going? Cedric Coward, last one on the actual list. So he was here a couple weeks ago. I was actually startled a bit by how small he was because I think when you just think

about his archetype, I was thinking more like 6-8, traditional like big wing type. He's actually 6-5. And I think part of that is also because he's such a good rebounder and is so good like working within traffic that I thought he was probably bigger than he actually is. Overall, solid. I think he's had a good rookie season. The ultimate question is like how much star potential he ultimately has. I think that's just where the conversation naturally led with him because there's just so much juice there that like wasn't tapped into in college.

I should mention that he's a little bit older than a lot of the guys were talking about because of his long, uh, winding journey in college. So I ultimately netted out around McHale Bridges, which is still a good player. And frankly, the type of player, the Grizzlies have been seeking for about 10 years that would have really like made a difference when they were actually competitive with the Marine and John Jackson crew. But I don't know. I'm I stopped short of him being like, an all-star level guy based on what we've seen at this point? I think he could get to occasional all-star level potentially as a score. And I wonder with the McHale Bridges types is he wired for that kind of persistent defense

and also that kind of off-ball activity. Like I still see him as being a score first and foremost, how effective is up for debate. And so I ended up in like Karan Butler kind of territory or like Jerry Stackhouse, if you woke up feeling kind of stiff that day and wasn't moving with like the full athletic burst. Because there is something that's like weirdly, it's not robotic, but I think part of the reason... Sciatic stackhouse.

You know, there's something to that, and I think it's frankly part of the reason why the Kauai comp started happening in the first place with Cedric Howard is like there's just something stiff about the way he moves that I think makes him a little unpredictable, frankly, but also makes him not as like limber and explosive as some of the best athletic wings. I think it comes from the way he carries his shoulders and his arms because, you know, I think he was like six, five and a half barefooted at the combine, but he just, he just has these very broad shoulders and super, super long arms.

I think his wingspan's over seven feet. That's where I think some of that came from that gives him the gate that kind of looks like Kauai, but you just don't want to cut. You could take the root of saying like an emaciated man's Kauai, but it's like I don't totally want to go that. Like it's like sensible Jeremy Grant kind of thing because I think he's like a better passer, has better instincts on that front. similar bodies. I-O was another guy we had in the guide, but I don't know, the sort of that space between,

are you willing to go say that he's going to become a star? It's still possible. He's improved so much. His developmental arc suggests that it could happen. The body type is just so weird, because I think any other rookie, I'd be like, he could add like 50 pounds, like over the off season

because he seems like that sort of athlete and the type of guy who would be willing to do so. But then he's like 22, but then he had this weird path. So, like, is he actually 22 in terms of his development? It's one of the weirder cases, but the odd thing is he has a high floor, I think, is what we're all kind of agreeing upon. If anything, we're just not sure, like, how high the ceiling goes, which is not typically what you'd seen from, like, this sort of mystery man sort of project type. Yes, I feel like the players who we have those conversations about in terms of ceiling and floor are rarely scorers first.

It's more like guys who bring other sophisticated skills to the table who work them out in college. over time by having consistent reps. And this is just like a huge question mark even still. And frankly, I think we'll continue to be one, probably for another year or two. All right. Anybody else from this rookie class that's caught your eye? I'd say it's like a pretty deep class overall, probably more in the intriguing pile after we get through these sort of 10 guys that we've been talking about all season,

which is already way more than like definitely last year, but even in most classes. Rob, it was like catching your eye other than these guys. How many do you want to do? As many as you want. Okay. How about Nolan Treore, who's been getting a lot of reps for the Nets lately? I think it's looked quite good. I haven't comped as Tyas and Trey Jones' long-lost French brother.

How do we feel about that? I don't hate it. Like, there's something that's, like, not enough of a score in a different way from Yeager, frankly, but, like, doesn't get the respect off the dribble to really drive a ton of offense, but I think has good instincts for just like running basic formulaic stuff. And like keeps everything moving, keeps it like organized. I think there's a skill set to that that honestly has paid off nicely for the Nets lately. Kind of the neutral impact, like not a ton of assists, but not a ton of turnover.

You know what I mean? It's like he's just like he's a neutral. You're not being hurt by putting him out there. Yeah, I think that's interesting. Did you want to do your other ones? Do we want to go around the horn a couple of times? Or what are you just trying to just rattle them off? maybe rattle them off.

I don't have, I don't have comps for my sleepers, but I have guys I wanted to mention at least. How about, we'll stick it with the nets, Danny Wolf, who I think just had like the game of his professional life so far against the calves.

I have Dario Sarich, but I'm not sure which one. I called him Ivy League, Turkleu. That was my comp. I like Ivy League Turcalu. Yeah, as far as like face up bigs

who can kind of shoot, but really just want to like mix it up. and make plays. He's an exciting player. I just don't know how good he is. It's just this is the problem with the Nets draft class. I'm not completely out on drafting this many guys because as we've talked about in the past, like you only need one or two of them to pop.

But they do at this point seem like they have a lot of backup point guards or just like weird rotation players. And so right now you're seeing the growing gains. Yeah. And so it's just like, these are all fine. They're all in the other pile. It's a lot of connecting. I'm just not sure where any of it goes.

Foles we got. Yanukona Niederhauser are now like a beacon on this pod. I got to say, I just think he's kind of like Derek Lively-ish now. I think they have a lot in common in terms of their body type, in terms of their poise, like playing through contact. I don't know what the present and future of both of those players holds in terms of who projects higher at this point. Lively has all of these injuries to consider.

But I'm just like thinking about Niederhouser as a, I don't know, like a stable building block in a way I wasn't even a, couple of months ago. Yeah. They were going to say, like, I've been thinking about Niederhouser just like while I'm at the gym. Do you not? Just running through my head all day.

Just keeps popping in there. I think that part was implied. Maxime Reno of the Kings, one of the most productive rookies. He's on my list, too. Lankier, Chris Kamen without the Doomsday bunker?

Does that work? Jeez. Wow. I mean, you got to cut deep with these guys. revising our priors. My favorite thing with the LeBron draft class retrospective, like when you're ever going through like on Wikipedia or whatever, all the listed out, they always highlight the guys that made Hall of Fame and made All-MBA and All-Star. And then you get to Cainman, you see that he made the All-Star one year. You're like, oh, wow, that era was really fucked. Especially in the West. They were really digging into the crates in order to find some guys. Quite an artifact.

The centers in particular who are making All-Star teams, just absolutely preposterous stuff. DeAndre Jordan was first team all NBA. Like, what were we doing? Yeah. Yeah. Kyle, you wanted to go with some of yours? I had Rayneau. I had, you know, Ryan Caulkbriner, I think, has been a good rotation big.

I mentioned him a few times here and there. I think Hugo warrants a mention. 19 years old. Yeah. Motor League, man. I mean, he's just, we were joking on Twitter the other night about he tried to, I forget who dunked on him, but he just kind of is, I was like he'll do. it again. He'll jump in the way of a freight train. He risks. He's not afraid to put himself in harm's

way. Yakuchonis has come on lately. He's been shooting it better, not on high volume, but he's gotten back and looked better. That's been nice to see. I was a little worrisome early on, but he's adjusted and feel a little more optimistic about Yakuchonis. The only guy I wanted to talk about was Nick Clifford, who's having a bit of a moment now that everyone in the King's organization is on injured reserve, not that it mattered. Like, I loved how they shut down all of their good players and all of a sudden it's just like something's going to be appreciably different with that franchise. Just Kyle, he's a guy that you earmarked going into the draft and he's been everything at the very least over the past month where it's just like, I'm trying to think of the

NBA jam players that had all the bars aligned at the same spot. It just feels like he just does like a lot of good thing. I was thinking like Lafonso Ellis or somebody where it's just like solid ass guy who just does everything well. And obviously he's doing a little bit more now that he has the opportunity. But like he's just going to be a rotation player. Oh yeah. For a decade because he could just check all these different boxes. You teed me up for something I meant to mention when we were talking about fears because I was looking at rookie point guard like pick and roll efficiency. And I just this just came to my attention. I wasn't going to mention it otherwise. Among the guys in the league who have hit over 200 pick and roll of reps this year.

Who do you think has the highest turnover percentage in the NBA? Oh, boy. All players, not just rookies? All players. 200? Who is really throwing that thing around? And the number is going to blow your hair back. I'm so concerned.

Who you got for us? It's Russell Westbrook. Yeah. And the number is 32.7% of his pick and roll reps are turnovers. over 200. I just, that was just like, oh my God. So, yeah, your King's comment teaming up for that.

Oof, me, Clifford would never, frankly. It does really speak to the fact that the best way to tank is just be in like institutional decay for the past decade. It's just like you could try all these different things, but actually what leads to tanking is just being absolutely terrible at everything. Imagine having the leash to do that. Like, just it's baffling. It's baffling.

Truly. All right. I'll wrap it there. That's the rookie class. We'll circle back at some point during award season to kind of put a bow on the con and Cooper talk. But we'll be back Thursday. As per usual.

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