The Ringer NBA Show - Van Lathan on Zion Williamson’s Recent Antics, Ja Morant’s Potential Long-Term Suspension, and the Ever-Changing Media Landscape Around the Modern Athlete | Real Ones

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

Logan is joined by The Ringer’s Van Lathan to discuss the recent Zion Williamson controversy, how the media environment around the modern athlete has changed in recent years, and how off-the-court headlines can detract from a young player’s career (2:08). Later, the guys talk about the potential for a long-term suspension against Ja Morant and what that says about how the league handles punishment for players (35:58). Finally, the guys close with their Real Ones of the Week (62:30). Host: Logan Murdock Guest: Van Lathan Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Dana Bash of CNN. Real what's up next. What's popping? Logan Murdoch here. No Rajabelle. He is off at Ohio State with his son doing recruiting trips. So I got my pal, I got my bud from higher learning fame, from ringer-verse Fame. The Midnight boys are in the building. Pibu! It's Mr. Van Lathen in the house. How are you doing, Van? It's good to see you, Logan. How are you?

How is it being a real one? I mean, it's something that you emulate every day. You should know that. I think you should already know what the answer to that question is. At least I hope so. I got, I made up a theme song for real ones. Would you like to hear it? Let's do it. Hey, third I Kai and Kerm. Make sure you make the revamp this. What's going on? What we got? Real ones. We really, really wants. Real ones. We're really ones.

Real ones. We really, really ones. Who are? We real ones. We really, really wants. Real ones. We really, really wants. That's the thunk. I mean, you just come on, put a beat to it, bam, off the chain. You like that. Figure out what y'all can do with that, producers. Figure that, figure that shit the hell out.

It's good to see you, bro. It's funny because we had, I asked you to come on, you know, last week when we found out raw wasn't going to make it. And I just wanted to talk, because, you know, we've been to have you on ruins for a long time. And some things came out in the news and the time that I asked you to come onto this podcast. And now that you're here on this podcast and the biggest news is obviously Zion Williamson

and everything that has happened with his gender reveal for his baby and everything that is going on. We don't have to go into every single thing on that. But you guys can Google everything that transpire. But I think it leads to a bigger. conversation and I'm excited to have with Van, which is the environment surrounding the modern athlete and how much it has changed over the years. And I think I just start you with that question. What about the landscape has changed? Because these things, Ban, you and I both know you with your history, with TMZ and how have you have been your journalism. Me as a beat writer,

So we basically seen the same things. But I think the landscape has evolved since then. Since you got a TMZ, how have the new cycle evolved and also the way we cover such things evolved? It's involved because cultural currency has changed, right? Cultural currency has evolved from proximity to attention. And that's a very important distinction.

So it used to be that just being in proximity to someone meant better things for you. Now, if you know stories, the way I'd know stories, not just at TMZ, but prior to that, athletes have always hung out with women in the adult industry. That's not been anything new, no new trailblaze in that. athletes are young, okay, most of the time. They're rich. They're in great shape. They like models.

They like dancers. They like women who, they're like women who are porn stars. I mean, I don't know why I'm, why. They're like, this is not a new thing. If you go back, you'll see videos and tapes of this guy hanging out with her. I remember Houston, who had a very popular one. called the Houston 500, and it was the 500 for a reason. Now, you guys can go look that up.

But they've always, she would hang out with certain huge named NBA stars. It's always been a thing. The difference is at that point, the currency was in your proximity to those people. Because being around those people meant something for you. It meant that you maybe got money from them or you got entre new in places that they could go. They looked out for you, all of that type of stuff. Now, it kind of doesn't matter unless people know about it. So whereas the proximity was the thing before,

that means that you don't want to do anything to mess your proximity up. You don't want to do anything to change that. You want to make sure that you can stay in proximity to those people. And oftentimes, Logan, that meant that the relationships that you had with those people were one-sided that they can kind of treat you however they wanted to treat you, do whatever they wanted to do, maybe throw you around to their boys or whatever, I'm just being for real. Now, though, attention is the currency. And that means if there is any proof that you have been with this person, it'll make you a bigger

star than you were before. And because being a bigger star means your walk-through money might be better. People might come to your Twitter or come to your stuff. your followers might go up, whatever. People are more interested in that than when you're endeavoring into a relationship like this, and this is not me casting all sex workers

or all... Protect sex workers. Protect in the same light. I'm not doing that at all. But I'm saying is, not just for them, but in the grand scheme of things, attention is the currency. That means that you might end up in a situation where provoked or unprovoked,

someone goes, you spit my mouth last week. That's probably the first time that's ever been said on this podcast. But I think the bigger question on that, right? Because I think we've established at this point that this has always been a thing. But I always wondered because I've been 20 years old, you've been 20 years old. We have had to grow up in this world too, right? but without the, I don't know how you want to call it, without the presence of cameras constantly on you,

without the presence of attention constantly on you. And I guess my question is, I look at a person like Zion, and also I didn't even get to it in the beginning, a person like John Morant, who will get to in a second and his, whatever he is dealing with in a second. But what does that do to any sort of athlete when, you know, they're growing up just like how you and me are?

but every single movement is watched. What does that do to a person's brain and their psyche? And how do they try to navigate these things? And what are the ones that are sick? What is the profile of a person that is successful at it and a profile of a person who is not necessarily successful at navigating this world that we really don't know about it all when we're getting into it? Okay.

So this is going to sound kind of weird. But the profile of somebody that is successful at it is La Mello Ball. That's the profile of somebody who's successful at it. La Mello, Leandro, and Lanzo were famous for being high school basketball players, famous for the ancestors of their father, and a disruptive way in which he went about his business model for BBB. And it wasn't always without controversy. the way that LeVar Ball would go about

dealing with his sons, talking to the media, or whatever you would have it, right? It wasn't always without controversy. But what people didn't pay attention to is by LeVar Ball making himself the subject of the story and the scrutiny, he almost in a way

took that away from his sons. Now, this is not to say that there hasn't been stuff that's happened. If you remember, Leangelo went to China and was accused with some of his UCLA teammates of stealing sunglasses. They still did. Which is a worldwide news story.

Which was a worldwide news story. They still did dumb, stupid kids stuff. And that's just like a part of it, right? But for the most people, part, besides when we were talking about those three, we're talking, especially now, maybe not ball of the family, your damaged goods, talking to your kids and big baller brand stuff. But most of the time, when we're talking about Lavar, we're talking about antics.

But we're talking about the three sons. We're talking about basketball, for the most part. For the most part, we're talking about basketball. So when you look at LaMello right now, he might drive fast. he might do stuff. You know, he's cool with the glasses and all of that stuff. But for the most part,

the Lamello ball conversation, like, it's a basketball conversation. And I think that's an example of not necessarily, I would say right. That's an example of, and obviously they have a lot of time to make mistakes, right? And if we had a basketball conversation,

we don't know Lanzos basketball future. We don't know if Leangelo is ever going to be an actual real rotation NBA player. but Mello seems to have a star trajectory, but at the same time, you know, there's a lot of court time left to be had. But, like, in that sense,

you're looking at guys that have managed to stay away from flashing guns or, you know, having their reputations in any way besmirched by someone. There's no shame in whoever Zion Williamson wants to sleep with,

but certainly the claims that are being made by him from the young lady that was on Twitter are claims that he was not right to her, bad to her, that he messed over her and all of that stuff. But I'll say this, all of these guys that I'm talking about, with the exception of John Morant, became famous before they were NBA players. Like Zion Williamson, I remember covering all of these guys when they were in high school. I'll tell people this, for the Mickeys, for the Zions,

for any of the people like this that you make famous while they're, 16, 17, whatever it's going to be. Book it. They're going to do something dumb. Book it. It's going to happen.

Because that fame enters into their life sooner. Their proximity to different people enters in their life sooner. They get preyed upon by certain people sooner. And dealing with all of that stuff at that age is a lot different.

then a guy coming out after his junior year of college or something like that. So all of this stuff is kind of in the same organic thing when you're talking about what that means. Certainly, like these guys are still young and certainly there are pernicious elements that are preying on them. But at the same time, they got to experience a lot of fruits of being famous. You know, before they had really done anything in basketball, You know what I mean?

So there's an upside and there's a downside to it as well. It's interesting because like when you talk about that age group of a lamello ball, he comes in, he's probably like probably one of the more famous names in basketball at 14, right? And I think about kids that age where they're still figuring themselves out, right? They're still figuring who they are as a person out and they get put into this world, right? and you know this world, just being a TMZ, when they get to this point, why, what is the anecdote to what we're talking about right now, right? Because we're thinking about it.

And I see this, you know, with Zion and I see this with John Morant. There's nothing that can prepare them for this level of fame in general, right? You're basically just putting them in a fishbowl out of nowhere. They're just, you know, one day there in South Carolina just dunking for their homies. and then the next six months are the most famous people on the planet. And there's an adjustment in how you move in all these different ways, right? And what is the trajectory? Now I'm not talking about necessarily Zion and Jiao want to ask this question,

but like during your time, what is the typical trajectory for a young player in this time? Because they always got the L.A. trip, right? They always got the New York trip. You're always, they can't just have fun and chill. They can't just be, you know, someone's going to tell somebody about this happened. Somebody's going to tell them about something that this happened. But how do you work through that when you're just figuring yourself out as a person at like 18, 19 years old? And now you're the face of this organization, not only that is an NBA organization, but the face of this brand that people have put on to you.

There's got to be a concerted effort by the people around you. you know, and I give a lot of people credit, you know, their fathers and mothers of athletes that I'm still in touch with because there were stories that I did regarding their kids, whether or not they were in high school or college during the time that I was at TMZ Sports, you know? And there were certain people that took it incredibly seriously how their children were going to be portrayed,

what was going to be written about them, and how things were going to be said. And those are the people there now on all rookie teams, you know, pitch men and pitch women and doing things. There's a point where your kid is going to look at you and be like, hey, it's my life, got out of the way. Well, that usually happens about, like, that is funny you said that that usually happens around 26, 27, though, right?

Like it doesn't usually happen around 18. That's like seven years in the league, which is understandable, right? Like, oh, okay, I'm an adult now. Well, hold on. I would argue something. Okay. It's not the age that denotes when it's going to happen. It's the time in the spotlight.

Like, let me give you an example of something. People talk about how young Jason Tatum still is, right? Right. And he is young. He is young. He's what, 25, right? Around that age. But when people say that, I go, well, I don't,

don't really talk, I don't really think about players in terms of their, the number of age about, like, where their game should be or where they should be as a player. I'm not saying anything necessarily about Jason Taylor here. Um, because after my yokech debacle, I'm not going to talk basketball anymore. I'm casual CV, casual van is what you're going to be on. Yeah, I was, I was, that's why we've had this conversation as opposed to the, to the, the, uh, the whole outline that Kerm put out for us with different intricate stats and different players. We were talking about this, yes. Yeah, I've been boning up, you know what I mean? Kind of getting into it because I love sports and sports culture. But, you know, I say one thing about Yoke's just like, Ben, shut up. You guys are right. I was wrong. That's it.

But I'll say this. I'll say that it's, to me, it's experience in whatever it is that you're doing. So it's not Jordan won his first title at 27. It's Jordan won his first, or 28 or whatever it was. It's Jordan won his first title seven years into the league. it's not the number of your age is how long you've been doing what it is that you're doing and so what I would say is the number

Zion William Williamson will be ancient when he's 26 when he's 27 he will have been at that point famous for around nine or 10 years if we started watching him when he was 16 he will be famous for like that's going to be at the that's a completely different thing so the point is is like if you get a 22 year

22 or 23 year old person whose life maturity in the way that they look at the world may not match up with how long people have been paying attention to them what you have is the capability for them to do things

that aren't always destructive in a real way but embarrassing to themselves and maybe put their future earnings and their career in jeopardy now what happened to Zion is more gossip page fodder it's not that big of a deal I will say this.

It does demonstrate a certain devil-may-care, lack of control attitude that he might want to kind of get a handle on. And as a man, I've definitely been there. I'm no better than Zion Williamson, so I'm not judging him at all, but it might be a little tightened-up moment for him in that space. Well, the thing that's interesting, though, Van,

because I've been thinking about this ever since it dropped, What happened with Zion isn't dissimilar to what happens to a lot of players in this league that we're in, right? Like this, this definitely, this isn't, this isn't, this isn't something new. But I think the, what I think that is given a lot of people pause at this point is it is a example, something happening in this personal life and it is an example of what is eroding stuff that's happening in this professional life. The things that we have all heard, things that Mirage have heard, you know, that we've kind of alluded to, on this podcast, not necessarily like telling it to the forefront. But the thing with Zion is you hear all these whispers that he's not focused,

that he's not caring about the game. He's not caring about his job. His mind is on other things. And when you continue to play no more than 30 games a season, people have questions on how you approach your job. And then you, this thing bubbles to the surface. And then you have everyone saying, oh, I told you so. Now, if Zion was, was, was.

playing 80 games a season, averaging 30 a game, the Pelicans were in the midst of a championship run year and year out. This would be a non-issue. It would be funny. But like this, I feel like this thing that happened just now is an example of the microcosm that is around Zairon and Williamson at this time. The fact that he's not being successful in his day job, the thing that people are accounting on him to be. And you see an example of stuff that isn't happening. It's a little different than John Morant because John Morant is an MVP can. John Morant is playing really well

and he's a face of the league. They want Zion to be that. But this was an example of why people around him of saying like, nah, this is why he can't be. This is why he isn't reaching his potential. Because not necessarily like the gender revealed thing, but he's not focused on the game. And this is an example of that.

See, I don't like that. And let me tell you why. Either it's cool to fuck the porn stars or it's not. All right. It's like either it's so, you mean to tell me that if Zion was first team all NBA, then he could be a Brazzers contract star. But if he's not first team all NBA,

then he should dedicate all of his... I mean, he's still going to do his thing. This is my thing. And you're right, but I juxtaposed that with Jimmy Garapolo, who was in the same position, but he was winning games. It was like, oh, that's tight, right? Oh, this is cool. This is cool.

But see, I covered that. And when I say I covered that, I mean, that was like, we put that out there. It's like, that was Caramea. All right. Jimmy Garapolo, that was a moment for us. Okay, we actually got that. We put that up. I was in there when I was like, I was the guy that we walked by and they go,

Jimmy Garofalo's in there with, uh, he's at Avro with this super hot girl. And I was like, hmm. And then they go, what? I was like, oh, I know who that is. And it's, your research has done so much. Your years and decades. research have done you well. And so

what I'm saying is that Jimmy, it wasn't a thing then, but then it became a thing. Remember Stephen A. Smith started calling Jimmy Garapolo porn star Jimmy. So now his play, and this is a little bit in terms of, when we look at this,

there's a little bit of, I don't want to go all, I want to take it too deep here, but there's a little bit of misogyny that goes into all of this stuff and a little bit of respectability here too because now when Jimmy Garapolo starts to play bad but he was playing good but when they start to play bad you start calling him porn star Jimmy

as if him eating with Kiramia in any way lends itself to his play on the field like what if it were and we've seen this before with athletes with women that weren't porn stars remember I don't know if you might have been too young with the whole flap between

with Tony Romo and Jessica Simpson. Jessica Simpson, Tony Romo is dating Jessica Simpson, and everybody's like, can Tony Romo concentrate on playing football? I remember that. I do remember that. I was outside for that. And she's in the pink nine jersey doing the whole thing. And I'm like, either you can focus on playing football

or you can't focus on playing football. If you want guys who are 25, 26, 27 years old to be monks so that they can go out there and do their jobs. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen in professional sports. It's not going to happen on Wall Street.

It's not going to happen anywhere, right? So I don't know how much one thing has to do with the other. I think one thing we miss out on, and I think is the thing is like, these people, not to say they're just like us, these athletes are, but like they're us with one immense great talent. They still have the same urges. They still have the same things. They still have the same, like, they're, they still have those things, right?

If you fucking put me in that situation, I don't know. what I would do, right? You have no idea. My question, though, to you is, because, you know, if you take this 10, 20, 30 years ago, I think the media landscape is totally different in regards to this, right? Like, what has the rise of blogs, specifically in Los Angeles, there's TMZ, there's Perez Hilton, there's Hollywood Unlocked, I'm just going down the line of just all these different types of media centers coming of age in the early 2000s. How was that kind of affected how we've seen?

And I think that goes back to my question in the beginning of this, how we even look at these things? Because at the end of the day, because on my end, this is why we stand at two ends of the spectrum, is because you were on the TMZ side where you did guys report on these things where I'm on like the beat writer side. And it's like, we know these things,

but we're not necessarily, we're not writing these things. It's not going in the San Jose Mercury News. But what has the rise of these blogs done in terms of the media landscape and how we just cover these athletes? In two ways. Number one, it commodified the entire experience of, like I said, before, of fame. Let me tell you what TMZ did.

That was more genius than anything else. When you go to TMZ's website, you'll see stories, but also, I think it's in the top right corner. It'll say, do you have a tip? and they don't put a number up there to the tip line. Okay. That means if you see somebody somewhere, then you can be TMZ.

All you have to do is call the tip line, and then you're no different than anybody else who works in the office, because you're getting paid for producing a story. Everybody in the office gets paid to produce stories besides the people on the TV side. When you call the tip line, you are TMZ. You're a part of it.

And there's two things that happen there. Number one, you get paid for the tip. And then number two, you get to be a part of the celebrity experience. I would go into places and I would sit down to have dinner and people would be, just let you know Mel Gibson was just here. This is what happened. And I didn't ask anybody for anything. They wanted two things.

Number one, they wanted to get paid for something that they might get. And number two, they just wanted to be a part of it. And that's what all of this stuff does. Everything that we're talking about, right? Everything that we're talking about. We're talking about things that used to happen that used to seem 100,000 miles away from people. I'm from Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

In the 90s, when you would look and you would see celebrities on vacation or doing stuff, it always seemed like it was places that you couldn't go and things that you couldn't do. so that part of the wanting to be in a specific industry was wanting to live in a world that was almost completely different. Well, now things are not the same. If you go out to a club, you might see these people there,

they might post it, they're going there, hey, I'm going to be here tonight. Then you go there, you see them, they do something. You make the call. You're a part of it. You're in the story. You are a part of the story. You're the person who got it, right?

And so that makes the person that is famous in the equation more of, I don't want to say a target, but more of a magnet for a specific type of coverage than ever before. Brough, I tell you, the thing that made me never want to be in celebrity news ever again, never want to break news ever again, particularly celebrity news, was the fact that it makes you look at the people around you, especially like when your profile starts to raise it makes you look at the people around you like which one of these people is going to be the one to fuck over me because I tell you Logan

I would be getting tips from people I can't bro I'll be getting tips from people and then see their Instagrams and see them standing with the guy in the picture going happy birthday bro since day one we've been on the playground together blah blah blah blah blah I remember talking to one particular person going yo, you really want to do this?

I'm like, I don't think you want to do this, man. Like, think about it. He had gotten into it with one of his bros, and he was about to, I was like, I don't think you really want to do this, bro. And the only reason why I was because I didn't really know the rest, it just got to a point to where I was like, God damn.

And I'm not taking a moral high ground because it is what it is, right? You're in the building. You're in the building. But it got to a point to where I'm like, I'm not saying I feel sorry for actors or musicians or athletes or anything like that. But it's a dirty game out there. It really is.

I remember talked to him for a while, and I seen him later on. And he was like, yeah, bro, I appreciate that, man. I was like, yo, bro, like, think about what happens if all of that stuff gets out. He would have known it was you. Yeah. He would have known it was you.

There was no way he wasn't going to know that it was you. So I'm like, yeah, man, just, you know, take care of your people. And this person is still the right-hand man of this guy, the way. Has no clue. Has no clue. Hey, man. Hollywood is a nasty place, bro.

You keep telling me to come down there and I'm like, no. I can't do it, bro. It's wild. But like it's also one thing that we also need to discuss. It's not, I don't want to make it seem like, you know, this T of Z and is in this rise of this block coaster is a hundred thousand percent predatory because these other people, athletes, celebrities, and all these things, they use this to their advantage as well, right?

Of course. TMZ, how many calls have you gotten saying, hey, man, I just want to leak that I'm coming here. Oh, I'm just doing this. How do the, how and why do celebrities and athletes alike use this to their advantage as well? For, from athletes, never not one time. From athletes, I've never,

in the history of working there, I never had an athlete going, I'm going to be here today, send a camera to me. Never. Not from anybody that played a sport. They, from my experience, they want to be left alone. Now, I'll say this, they, because remember, here's the difference

between athletes. Their personal brand for the majority of them, for the majority of them, their personal brand matters less than how they reflect. the team. In any of these sports, there are not as many athletes that have personal brands as you think.

Not very many of them have that. It's kind of like the haves and the have-nots in that respect. LeBron James has a personal brand. James Harden has a personal brand. Steph Curry has a personal brand. I would even say that Nicole Yokes right now doesn't have a personal brand. He might, he's best player in the league, right?

But he doesn't have like a, he doesn't have a personal brand. He doesn't have Twitter. It just really just plays basketball. It really doesn't really have that, right? So if he messes up, it'll be, well, maybe not him because he is a big enough deal to where he's the MVP of the league and stuff like that. But for a lot of the guys, if they mess up,

their name is not the first thing that gets reported in the headline. So if LeBron James messes up, it's LeBron James did so-and-so and so-and-so. If Ruey Hotamora messes up, it's L.A. Lakers or NBA star, Rui Hachamore messes up. So the first thing they give you is who he is

by qualifying his association with either the Lakers or the league. The second thing they give you is what happened. So with LeBron or somebody else, it's that with actors and musicians all the time. Because their personal brand

is a reality stars, come on. Reality stars would do it every day because that's the way that they do it, right? But actors, musicians, reality stars. He's called up the office like, yo, I'm going to be a shake shack in like 10 minutes. I'm doing this, I'm doing that. Or if something else was reported about them somewhere else, send a camera to me, blah, blah, blah. I'm doing this with those guys all the time.

So it was my experience with athletes that, I mean, we would catch them everywhere, but it was almost harder to get an athlete to talk to you than he needs. else at TMZ. It was much more difficult because most of them, they're like they can't make problems for their organizations or their leagues. And so they don't want to have any part of anything that would make that stuff look bad. So a lot of times athletes wouldn't be game for setting up shots or trying to get on the show or nothing like that. They'd have to have some sort of security to want to do that.

I was doing the TMZ tour one time and LeBron was walking down. Rodeo. And the bit and the gag on the TMZ tour is like when you see a celebrity, you jump off the tour and you film them, right? But I couldn't jump off on Rodeo because there's an ordinance in Beverly Hills that you can't get off the bus, right? To go film somebody and do it, so you can't do that. So LeBron is walking down Rodeo drive in the middle of the day. The middle of the day. He's 6'9, and he's the most famous basketball player. the world at this point. You never miss LeBron, bro. You never miss you can't. You can't. And so all of Rodeo is going nuts. Like every, oh my God. And if you guys have never been a Rodeo drive in the middle of the day on any day when the weather is nice, there are tons of people

out there. Tons. If you go there after everybody's gone, it's beautiful, like Italian street or something. But during the middle of the day, everybody's out there. I was just trying to get LeBron and say hi to the bus. I was like, I literally was on the bus. playing the game because I might and everybody on the street can hear me. I'm like, LeBron, just say hi to the bus, bro. Just say hi to the bus. And I asked the bus, I'm like, who's the greatest baseball player of all time? And the bus goes LeBron James.

And I asked the bus, like, who's the greatest U.S. president of all time? And the bus goes LeBron James. I just want him to say hi. He wouldn't say hi to the bus. He didn't even want to acknowledge TMZ. And I don't blame him. That's how much he didn't want them in his business. It's almost time to crown an NBA champion and Fandul wants you to be a

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or visit ccpg.org backslash chat in Connecticut 1-8009 with it, Indiana, 1-800-2-2-470-70, or visit KS Gambling Help in Kansas. 1877770 stop, Louisiana, GamblingHelpMA.org, or call 1-800-32750-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts. Visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org. Maryland, 1-8778 Hope N-Y or text Hope N-Y 467369, New York, 1-800-522-4-7-0-0 Wyoming, or visit www.w, www.1-800-gambler.net, West Virginia. Okay, so I want to talk about John Marenda real quick.

Sure. It's interesting how much of a story he's been during the finals without actually playing in the finals and how much the league is, like, actively trying to, I don't even know if they're, if they're trying to make him a non-story concerning the fact they always keep talking about him,

but where does he go from here from an image standpoint, from where he is right now? What are the two ways that you see him going at this point? You know what?

The simple answer to the question is, Logan, wherever he wants to go, that's the simple answer to the question. In age of Ultron, there's a conversation between Vision

and Scarlet Witch. It's not age of Ultron. It's actually a civil war. It's conversation in your bag right now. We're in the ring of verse. Let's fucking take it true. The ring of verse. Pugh, pew, pew.

Where, Pee-Pew. Vision looks at Wanda and he goes, Wanda, no one dislikes you. And then she goes, okay. And he goes, they're afraid of you. It's basically his point. It's like, it's not that they don't like you. Is that they're afraid of you.

And he's trying to tell her that she's so powerful and she had just made a really big mistake. It wasn't that people don't like her. It was that like they were afraid for her and of her. No one is afraid of Jarmorant, but they're definitely afraid for Jamborant. No one dislikes Jamborant. Was there a time when Memphis got annoying?

Yeah, of course. I ain't worried about nobody in the West, Dylan Brooks. But that's wrestling. That's not real. That's not real. It's fine. Yeah, it's fine.

But what we appreciated was that Jai was young. He was exuberant, hyper-athletic, and he was ascending. Big smile, infectious style of play. No one dislikes John. They're afraid for him. They're afraid for him. So it's not like it's a situation to where there have been players in this league before that they have been disliked.

They have been. People might not like the way Jai is acting, but people have liked John Morant. So really, John Morant's image in the future. He's the biggest cultural phenomenon in the NBA since Alan Iverson. No doubt about it. Yeah. His thing is going to be about,

his thing is going to be. I mean, there are a couple of other guys that deserve to be mentioned there, maybe a Kobe, maybe a LeBron. But I think what you mean and the way I receive is what you're talking about is to a certain group of people, and I think that you're right. But, but, but, but, uh, Thank you. But, but, but I think if Jai straightens his life, straightens up,

Jock do whatever he wants, Jaya grown man. But if Jai cuts the shit, I think he's fine. I think it's a, it's a stop on the way for something bigger for him. But if he doesn't, it could be a short tenure for him as a star of the league. It's just interesting because we always talk about. And I think the narrative around him right now, now, and we have participated in this narrative, me and Ra as well. But like, you keep talking about, we talk about the people around Ja-Morant. And, you know, when we say that, it's, I think it's a bit

more nuanced. And I wish that, and even as a self-person, I wish we, like, kind of brought the nuance in when we talk about the people around a certain person being the reason for their decisions, specifically with the Ja-M-M-R-R-ant stuff, I feel like it's just more, and Ra has brought in this up on many a podcast. at a certain point, you are the leader of this whole team. You are the leader of Jiam Morant LLC and all these things, right? How much of the onus is it on him to figure it out for the rest of them? Because if you're a leader and these is your partners, it's like, yo, this is how we're going to move.

And you see that, and personally, when you see that, not even just with basketball players, but with, like, celebrities in any profession where you need a team and you're a leader of said team, you got to you're there's only two ways that it goes either you move right or you move wrong it just seems like at this point jai is moving wrong and i feel like it at the end of the day it is a job decision talk me off the ledge or onto the ledge either way i think you're right but i do want to say something that's important jai is up to jai to decide who he's going to be around that's an important thing i think a lot of times when people say that the people around him need to do something is because it's the people around him

that have the least amount of wiggle room, right? If I'm Jai's best friend, anybody trying to come to Jai with something crazy, I'm gonna stop them. Because I probably can't dunk. I ain't got no finger roll. Nobody cares.

So I'm not gonna let you mess it up because I love you and also because, let's face it. You know, if I want to, to get this record store back at home, I'm old, they don't even have those anymore. Yeah, they do. And they do. We got two. I go to the record store all the time with vinyl, with actual vinyl. If I want you to invest into this thing or if I want to be a part of the whole thing,

I got to keep you doing the right thing, right? And I think a lot of people wonder, why don't, why aren't there people around Jai who are looking out for his best interest, which also, in a weird way, coincide with their best interests? But they're young and crazy. I'll tell you a story real quick, because I've been through this in life. My very best friend had a phase. I'm really a phase. He was in the street. Okay?

He was not in the street now, but he was in the street. And I remember the moment that I had to be like, I don't know, man. I don't know for my own, very own. Big tray from boys. You were in your trade from Boys in the Hood bag? A little bit. Not quite to that degree because this is my brother known us as the first grade. But we were with his cousins

And they were like, hey, hey, you know, we're gonna go out and have a good time And I'm like, okay, cool, I like those guys. These guys are straight. I'm talking about not playing. Y'all want to come to Baton Rouge and really see how it goes. I'm talking about these. But I like them.

Play the Madden with him. Play 2K with them. It's all gravy with me. So we go out. Night starts off. You know, we got the busi on. We're going crazy. And damn, I ain't going crazy.

You know what I'm saying? Hold nine. we get to Circle K, we're going to fill up gas, go to the place. I'm in the Circle K. They just walk up to the thing on the Circle K where the chips are, grab some chips, grab some drink,

walk out to Circle K. The dude, the clerk at the Circle K looks at them and goes, you got to pay for that. And he's like, he's about to call the cops. They get mad at him for getting mad that they stole. Right? And so then we get back in the car, okay?

And I'm like, they just, you know, shoplisted from the Circle K. I don't know if this is a game that y'all player. They got credit at the Circle K. I don't know what's going on, bro, but it's like the police come. It's not worth getting shot in the face over $1.99 Fritos. I don't know what's going on. He just laughs. You know, these are his people.

He just laughs. We get in the car, out comes the dope. And now they're tooting the dope and things are going really crazy. And Louisiana. Yeah, I'll come to the dope. So they just shoplifted from the store, drove away. I don't know if the clerk has a description of the car, and I now know that there are drugs in the car.

Nobody else cares. But I always catastrophize. So I'm looking at the worst possible scenario. I'm looking at how I'm going to explain to my dad that I've been locked up on a heroin beef. Okay? So we then go, I think we're going to a regular club. That's not where we go. go. We go across the river to a club called Playboys.

Bro, we get in this place and I'm looking around, man, it's bring your own booze. People walking in here with bottles. There's no bar. It's a house, a shack across the river. The walls are sweating. Everybody around here, I'm like, yo, man, I don't feel safe. Before you know it, it pops off.

And I'm with them, I got to fight. So, you know, I got to, I can't not fight. I got to fight. I'm like, oh, man, of course it's going to pop off. They high, full of illegal corn chips, and we end the thing. It was like, and I leave and when we get back in, we haven't met no women. I've had no fun. I look around and I go, you know what?

I love you. This isn't for me. And that's my still my God to this day. I love him to death. I was just with them. But sometimes, I let people be people. And it didn't last too long. He was, it happened, and he was out of it.

And he's a great guy, great man. But, you know, sometimes you got to be like, no, man. And Jaya got, Jaya might have to do that. And it's weird because those be the breaks, right? Like, you're not, if you get called up, we'll never hear about Van Lathan. We would have never heard about him, you know? Like, if you got caught up that night. Remember, there was this one time.

We was on this way to, me and my homies was on our way to, uh, we called it morp. It was like, it was like a party. It was basically a party. We called it more because it was prom backwards. It was, I don't know who came. up with this name. But I'm with my, I go to my homie's house.

He's one of my best friends in life. And he got other homies that come through. And we're about to walk from the homie's house to the high school where this shit is popping off. And I only know my homie and I don't know these other people. We get stopped by the cops. And right before we're about to get stopped by the cops, right? We see the cops are in like, whatever, we're walking, but we see them like, you know, we can just see it.

And one of the homies brings us. out a gun and puts it like on the like on a tire of a car so it can't get so it can't get you know seen or whatever so we all get hemmed up for about five minutes and I kid you not then beads were sweaty I'm like my dad's definitely kicking my ass my mom is kicking my ass this is over and like I didn't do anything like just like you I didn't do anything there was nothing that I did I was just there and from then on I've been like a lone soldier ever since then bro, like I don't kick it with people who don't do none of that shit, bro. Because it can go bad when you don't have all of your team in line.

Let me tell you something. To the people I was in the car with, okay, and to your friends, I wasn't about to be locked up for long. Because guess what I will do? Guess what officer? It was his gun. Okay? His gun.

Say whatever you want. Officer, I'll like to let you know. I don't know this guy. I'm not like that is his gun. He brought the gun. Dust the gun. Dust the gun. I submit to you,

Exhibit A, the fingerprints. Dust it, officer. And you will find an evidence that is, in fact, the gun of Ronald. And not mine. You will not see my fingerprints anywhere on said weapon. Back in Baton Rouge, I would like to submit to a toxicology test to where we could all discuss

who in fact has been ingesting said substance known as that brown here in Louisiana. Wasn't me. I'm not going to jail for y'all ever. Okay? If I decided I want to go rob a bank

and I went and I robbed the bank, guess what? Wouldn't tell. I guess there's some kind of code. Maybe still would. Who knows? Probably not. But if you think that I'm not going to tell, if you think I'm going to fucking Angola for you, do you know what goes on there?

No way. So in that situation, it wouldn't even been five minutes. We got out, whoop, I'd have been like, say, bro, hey, take your lip, take your lick for your iron.

Do it now. All right? I know you had that on you. Take your lick for your iron. Do it now. If not, they're going to know the truth truth teller

is what's going to happen. I'm really glad I'm not in that wasn't in that predicament where I did have to tell because I don't know about the politics at Baton Rouge but the politics in the Bay Area it would be great for me.

But, um... You're talking about on the snitch tip? Exactly. It's not working on it. No, it's definitely going to be bad, but I'm in this situation, I would rather be I would rather be a free snitch

than an incarcerated honorable I'm so glad we're down to streets, bro. I'm so glad I took this square path. I made a choice. I made a choice, bro. Listen, shout out to all the squares out there that was out here adjacent to real shit

and you just got out unscathed because square bear was the way for me to go at all times. Yeah, and by the way, that doesn't mean I'm not hating on anybody's lifestyle. I get it that brothers all over the place don't have as many options, and sometimes you got to do people all over the place. Sometimes you got to do what you got to do.

And I don't think it's right to plan something and do all of that stuff with everybody and then roll over on everyone. I do think it's weak. But I knew that I didn't want to be a part of it. I didn't want to have to make those decisions. Bro, I watched two prison documentaries in the 90s and it crystallized to the fact that I never wanted to be a part of it. My uncles and all of that I didn't want to be part of it.

I'm telling Jai right now, dog, you don't want to be a part of it. Not only do you not want to be a part of it, man, it's just no reason. Now, I will say this about Jai before we move on and move off him. There is a part of this that the league is in a situation to me with the suspension that I think they should be very careful about. And what I mean by that is the different incident was one incident to where Jai was up there on team business.

And he had a gun. That is clearly in the CBA that you cannot do that. Right? That's a clear rule that you can't have a firearm or anything. thing while on team business, you can't do that, right? As far as what happened with the kid and what happened with the Pacers, I thought that those incidents have been investigated sufficiently enough to where the league had deemed that there was no wrongdoing on John Moran's part.

And the reason why I would assume that is because there was no long-term consequences given to him. So assuming that those two incidents are clean, right, if those two incidents are clean and he was suspended for the incident before, I could make an argument that there's actually nothing to suspend him for for the IG gun situation. I can make an argument that J. didn't brandish the gun at anyone. He never, like he didn't point the gun in anyone.

He held the gun up basically saying, I have a gun. And if that's read by the language in the CBA as being immoral or breaking the morality clause, because he wasn't on team business, to my knowledge, then season was over. That opens up. a can of worms to where the league's interpretation of morality,

which maybe it already is this way, can be used to penalize a player. And my question would be, well, is it then immoral to go to the strip club? Is it then immoral if your sex tape leaks, which has happened to a guy that's in the finals now? Like, what does the league deem is moral as moral or immoral if there were actually no rules or laws broken?

I think the league has handled this wrong in a different way than you have, you probably would suggest. The thing with the strip club is he didn't get in trouble for being at a strip club. He had a trouble for brandishing a gun on a team trip in a strip club. The strip club was just the venue.

Like, he was just at a strip club. I know. So my point about mentioning the strip club, just real quick, my point about mentioning the strip club is, I get that that's why he was on team business. I get that's why. But in the case of the IG situation,

sure, it's embarrassing to the league. I understand that, and it should be personally embarrassing the Jai Morant. But what I'm wondering is if they investigated the Indiana thing and Jai, there was no wrongdoing on Jop's part. And if they investigated the thing with the security guard and there was no wrong doing on Jop part, and they investigated the thing with the kid and the pickup game and there was no wrongdoing on Jop part, which I would assume is the case because he wasn't suspended for any of those things, okay? or they never let us know that their findings demonstrated that he had done anything wrong,

I would wonder why the IG thing would be something that they could suspend him for, because there's nothing immoral or illegal going on unless you think having a gun in a car is immoral. It's amazingly stupid to me, and it's needless. but when I look at that, I think that if I'm the Players Association, I think that opens them up to scrutiny. It sets a precedent for scrutiny by the league that might not be in all cases all the time fair.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that he doesn't deserve to sit down for a little while. I'm wondering what the basis of the suspension is going to be. Well, two things on that point. One point is throughout this fiasco with John Moran over, I'd say over the last, what, 18 months, the league and to some extent, you know, the Players Association, it's their job to do this. But through behind the scenes and honestly, and you can see it in front of the scenes, the league has systematically and the Players Association has been

trying to protect John Morant. And why do I say protect John Morant? Even when this stuff goes, even when this stuff becomes public, do what do they do? They put them up in an interview, Give him A game, which was a really lenient suspension at the time, if you think about it. It was very lenient. Sure. They give him this lenient suspension. Tell him to go to rehab for a week. And then they sit him up and with an interview with a league partner to where he doesn't have to be accountable for anything that he does.

You're right. Right. So with that being said, the reason why he's about to get a long suspension is because he's continued to fuck. up after the league and the players association has gone out of their way to protect him. That's why he is getting the suspension. And that is why he is going to get a long one. That is the precedent that we are speaking on right now. And the second thing on that is, and to your sensitivity thing, the NBA is really, really

a lot more sensitive to how they treat their stars and how they feel about their stars, considering how they treated these black stars during the 90s. about, you go look at the coverage of Alan Iverson back in the day, right? Whether it was warranted or not, which I don't necessarily think it was, it was out of taste. It wasn't great. And so they are really sensitive 20, 25 years later when they have something like this on how they look in this situation. Adam Silver is really, really, really, really sensitive to optics, which is why, again, John might have a lengthier suspension. But because of they're so sensitive to optics, the league doesn't want to be portrayed as showing, oh, we are targeting this one type of brand of person or this person that we deem as like this hood person.

We don't want to put castles or spurges on players. So there's the one thing of we've protected this person for so long and they crossed us. And also we need to be sensitive in how we dole out punishment and how we are partnering with both our league and the Players Association to get this done. So I hear that. And I think that the league does need to send a strong message to players. What I'm saying, though, is that the rules of how and when and why you can discipline a player. The legality of it? Yeah, like those are collectively bargained.

Right. And so what I would wonder is, and what I'm hearing and what I think is, and what I think is going to happen is that after the finals that you'll hear that the league did an extensive investigation and they found either more cause in the Indiana situation

or in the thing with the kid or the security guard and they're going to kind of put these things together and they're going to say that this is a punishment for all of this stuff that there's that this investigation just isn't about what happened in the car, that the investigation is about some of the past stuff as well. It's a systematic thing that is continuing to happen. Right. I think they'll say that. What I would

then say to that, if that happens is, well, why didn't you suspend him? Why did it take him doing it again for you to suspend him for it? If that was the case before, why did it take another incident? You know, and we'll see what Adam Silver has to say about that. But all I'm saying is that the ability to punish

someone when you can, how you can, why you can, is collectively bargained. And the league being embarrassed, is not a good enough answer, in my opinion, for that. Now, I also hear that people in the Players Association, a lot of the players aren't exactly sympathetic to John Moran situation. So perhaps, and I could be wrong, I haven't talked to every single NBA player.

This is just what I hear coming down from people, that there might not be that much hubbub about his suspension when it comes down anyway. Well, another thing to even piggyback on that, the league, when they do make this, when they do make the announcement of this suspension, they're going to be very careful to say we did this in partnership with the Players Association for all those reasons that you just said it, right? Because, you know, even Adam Silver alluded to that in his pre-finals press conference. You know, we're working with the Players Association. We've seen other things that would warrant a bit of longer suspension. And this is just, this is just, this. This is why it's going down. They're definitely going to be very careful for it how they word this. Like Adam Silver being his bag when it comes at these press conferences, he knows exactly what he's going to say about every single question before it comes.

Okay. Look, I'm interested. And I also think, like, with this, you know, we have to consider, like, what Jaws emulating and sort of some of the influences that are out there. I'll tell you something. I mentioned this on higher learning. Before Iverson came into the league, guys didn't have their whole bodies tied up.

Sure, there were tattoos, but guys didn't have their whole bodies tanning up. Okay, after Iverson comes into the league, you had guys that some of them, some of the younger guys that maybe had been in the league a little bit before him get tattoos. You didn't see the vets, the Jordans, and the guys like that.

They didn't run out and get a whole bunch of them. tattoos, but guys that might have come in three, four years before him, and certainly the guys after him, they got some tattoos, right? It was, the league changed. Kobe went and got all kinds of tattered up. Shaq went and got tattered up. I'm not sure when Shaq first got his tattoos, but I remember I noticed him getting a lot more after the tattoo thing became a thing in the NBA.

Guys, the cornrows came in, the headbands came in, all of that. We always talk about Alan Iverson's effect on NBA culture. What does that tell you about the players? It tells me that they're impressionable. We've discussed this. These guys are grownups. These guys are grownups, for sure. Absolutely.

But I'm 43 years old. If you're 24, you're a kid to me, Kai. If you're 24, to me, you're a kid. I mean, you're an adult and you're responsible for everything that it is that you do. you're 23, 24, you're absolutely. But normally, and mileage may vary depending on who you are, normally, there's some life lessons that maybe you haven't quite learned yet, okay? And so when I look at that, knowing that these kids are impressionable, knowing that these

are impressionable men, they're still young enough to follow trends and do all of that stuff, what I wonder sometimes is why something like this with guns and, and, and, you know, all of that stuff hasn't happened sooner. Because when you look at a lot of the stuff, when Jai is emulating or a guy would be emulating the rappers of their day, just as we were emulating the rappers of our day, like that's what you see. So I'm surprised when I looked back on it

that this didn't happen sooner. And I wonder why. And I wonder if the league is asking itself that same question and going, but what we don't want to do is in a couple of years, have guys in videos, red beam team snipers, playing guns at people. So let's kind of nip this in the blood right now. Sure.

It's interesting, man. And it's so interesting because not NBA, but like sports are such a mirror to the world. And we don't like to say that a lot. Like we don't like to acknowledge that in a lot of ways, man. Like, you know, I think COVID was like one of the, not one of the first things because his world and leagues have intersected. But I think COVID was like the latest big example of like,

Yeah, man, we're all affected by this shit. And I think we're all like, I think that that's something that well, lesson that we need to take from the job thing and the Zion thing, man. Like these people are just figuring out like all of all the rest of us, you know? And that's just the case that we're at right now. Before we get out of here, you came, you have had the great honor of being on a Thursday show, which means every Thursday show, we shout out a real one of the week, which is a person, entity or an organization that won the week. in your eyes. I'm going to go first, and I let you gather your thoughts. My ruin of the week is one, Jeff Green, who has just been a vet, man. Just really just like, just been a really great vet for the Denver Nuggets who look to be on the way to their, their first title and franchise

history. I'm just going to put it out there. I know it's a two one series, but Jeff Green is my row of a week. Go check out Rob Mahoney's piece on the ringer. Six degrees of Jeff Green, really, really good piece. What is the piece about? It's pieces about how Jeff Green has six degrees of separation with everyone in NBA history. Phenomenal idea.

So go check that out on the ringer. And yeah, that's my run of the week. Who is your ruin of the week, Van? I'm going to be just like Julius Randall. I'm going to give it to a white woman. Dana Bash of CNN. I watched the Mike Pinsetown Hall last week, last night, should I say?

and you know, CNN has been getting a lot of blowback for hosting these town halls with Republican presidential candidates, namely Donald Trump. I'm not so sure how you're supposed to not, if you're a news network, not cover an entire part of the deal. I don't know what you're supposed to do. I think the Trump thing could have been better, but whatever. Dana Bash last night was exceptional in fact-checking,

and pivoting, and not getting all up in arms, but in talking with Mike Pence about inconsistencies in his policy and also in things that happened while he was governor of Indiana, I thought she was amazing and made him look like a fool. So I would say Dana Baj did a great job. She's my real one of the week. All right. That was been another edition of Real Ones.

We do this every Monday and Thursday. Roger will be back next week. Thank God. I want to thank Van Lathen. You can check him out on higher learning. You can check him out on the ringer voice with the midnight boys with my guy Charles Holmes. Pugh, phew. Talk to you guys next week.

Bye.