The Ringer NBA Show - Virtual Draft Strategies, Past Draft Stories, and Game-Changing Coaches | Flying Coach With Steve Kerr and Pete Carroll

Episode Date: April 23, 2020

Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr and Seattle Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll discuss all things draft, including how they are preparing for a virtual draft, how they scout players, and drafting late-round guys like D.K. Metcalf and Draymond Green (3:25) before talking about the coaches in both the NFL and NBA who innovated the game like no one before them (39:30). Hosts: Steve Kerr and Pete Carroll This show is raising money for COVID-19 relief. You can help! Donate here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of Flying Coach on the Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you by World Central Kitchen, their relief team, working across America to safely distribute individually packaged fresh meals and communities that need support. They are now serving tens of thousands of meals daily. In some of our biggest cities like New York and LA, they're launching initiatives across America to deliver fresh hot meals to hospitals and clinics, fighting on the front lines while keeping local restaurants and business as well. You can directly help these heroes in hospitals, and clinics who are fighting for us, and you can help keep your local restaurants live.

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If you want to find out more about them, go to WCK.org. And once again, if you want to help with our big, drive the ringer.com slash WCK. Meanwhile, as a thank you for all the frontline workers for COVID-19, P. Carolyn's company, Compete to Create, are offering a free online course and high-performance mindset coincidentally called Warrior's Edge, the unique curriculum tailored to the various military government and first responder branches will prepare personnel with mindset skills

that will transform their lives, both personally and professional. The course is an incredible insider look and in Pete's philosophy, culture, and leadership. The stuff we're talking about on this podcast, actually. It also includes insights and teachings from his partner at Compete to Create High Performance Psychologist, Director, Michael Jervais and former F-19 fighter pilot,

Janelle McCauley, you can find it by going to his website at compete to create.net backslash Warriors Edge. It will be available for free for anyone working with COVID-19. through the end of 2020. Coming up, episode two, Steve Kerr, P. Carroll, flying coach, this one's all about the draft.

It's a good one. Here we go. All right, Pete, week one in the books last week. Do you get a chance to listen to it? I did. I did. We survived it. We made it through it.

No hitches. I give us about a B minus. B minus is fair. We'll shoot for a B plus today, but the whole point is to try to get a little better. So I thought it was really fun. And we got a lot of great stuff to talk about. Our sports are so different in, you know, the way we play,

what we're trying to accomplish. But coaching is always similar no matter what the sport is because you're still trying to accomplish the same thing with a group of people. So it's really fun to hear your stuff with, you know, kind of how you motivate your job. team. So it's good stuff. I want to get into the draft this week. You know, next week is, you're a week away, basically, from what has to be the weirdest NFL draft in history, right?

Yeah, this is a one-time only situation I would think. I don't know, it'll never be the same, no matter what happens. It's really unique. And the whole process has been affected, you know, now as we close down, so much happens at the end because, you know, you accumulate all the information. and then at the end of it, now we pick it all apart and put it together and get it all situated just right for the draft. And a lot of the normal formatting is just not available. You know, we're not sitting in the same room talking about stuff.

And so it's all been done virtually. And, you know, thank goodness for Zoom. We've been Zooming everywhere. And a lot of the closing types of analysis that's done, the analytics that are done, are just not available like they've been. It's relativity. everybody's got the same, and we're all competing, which is kind of cool because we're trying

to figure out, you know, how to whip the other guys, you know, and get better information and more intel and all that. Give me an idea of what the scene will be like. Normally, you would all be at your facility in Seattle, right? How many people would be involved in a normal draft? There's hundreds of people when you particularly include the media, too, because they're all on hand. Everybody, you know, we're ready to, they can blast anywhere on the globe. And, you know, from our, more headquarters, the draft room, you know, kind of like the war room as we, you know, it's referred to, that's filled to the max, and that's probably 50 guys in there that are coming and going. And with the scouts and the coaches, and there's a movement kind of to that, the flow of that,

with the bulk probably about 25 of us up in the front trying to pull the thing together and all that. Really centric on John Snyder's work with all of the personnel people and all of his guys, they come together and they have areas. They've got specific aspects of the draft that they're responsible for. There's just so many things going on. Now, all that's going to be done. We're all in our homes by ourselves. And so there's no direct interaction. It's all going to be, you know, by Skype in our way and zoom in our way back and forth with multiple ways to communicate and backup systems so that we don't fall apart and fail. So it's really, it's, it's, it's, it's, It's really unique.

We're going to all be in their own little cave. So you're literally going to be at your house during the draft? Yeah. Set up in your office. And there's 100 other people involved with the Seahawks who are all in the exact same boat. They're all at their house set up just with their computers, ready to roll. I don't know what the final number is, but there's people everywhere. John's at his home.

They've been setting up for weeks really to get him organized and really zeroing in now. And we're finalizing the plan because we're having to create the plan of the communication avenues that we need. And like during the draft, so many random things happen still opinions. And I'll walk around and talk to different coaches and I'll pull the guy aside. We may even put it on a film to remind us about something or whatever. I mean, most of all of the work is done, but yet there's still those final decisions to be made. And it's a very dynamic situation.

It's really exciting. You know, and with all of the time that flows between the picks and all, you know, there's this great culmination, you know, through the seven picks or however many picks you have where it gets right down. Now you're on the clock and the clock's ticking and all that. And the interactions that happen are so intricate. Now we're going to do this, you know, I'm going to be able to zoom to my offensive staff, zoom to the defensive staff, zoom to John's staff. John and I can go, we have a couple hotlines and backup hotline. All that stuff is all going to be available to us so that we can try to, simulate the normal pathways of information, you know, that we finally need to make the choices that we make. So where's your, where's your pick in the first round this year? We're picking 27th. All right. So you picked, you pick 27th. I'm trying to picture this on draft night. So you're watching, you know, virtually, you're watching the draft. You know, it said pick number 24 and John Lynch calls you from the Niners and says, hey, I'll give you, you know, X, Y, and Z for 27, we'll flip it. You give us this, whatever, we'll give you that.

And then all of a sudden, your Zoom goes down. Your Internet's not working. Like, what are you going to do? Like, how does that whole process work if the technology breaks down? Yeah, we have to have backups, you know, backup ways to communicate. So we have a number of levels to do that. And particularly, John Snyder and I, you know, we finalized what we're doing here. And as we do that, it's he and I look an eye at eye on this thing, you know, so we'll have to do that, you know, on our phones.

And in the ways that we have a couple backup aspects as well, it could. It could go all the way down to dump, you know, where there ain't nothing. You know, I don't know how that will happen. We've got enough systems to back up. We got tech guys on hand, you know, to help us too. But, you know, it's just as easy as just screwing up and pulling out a plug or something. you know, you kick the, we kick the cord and everything goes down. So it's all going to, it's going to add for good drama. It's going to be fun. It's going to be exciting. And we've done it

enough. We'll roll with it pretty well. But probably the most intricate part of this other than the analytics that have compiled to this point is the potential to move in the draft. And that's there, we have been very, very active over the years and have always been looking for an opportunity. We just, we consider another chance to compete. And so we will consider drafts with every pick that we're making, you know, in some way or the other. Well, we're getting ready for our draft, which is scheduled for the end of June, but probably we'll get pushed back. We're not sure yet.

But, you know, we're going to be watching closely. It's an advantage that I think we have to be able to watch the NFL draft and to read about it and, you know, hear stories from organizations like your own, like, how's this all going to work out? One of the things we've talked about is, are you worried about getting hacked? You know, I mean, your computer guys probably have to make sure. you're protected, right? I mean, I wouldn't put it past certain teams out there, you know, trying to hack their way into your system. Well, there's old saying you're either competing or you're

not, you know, so, you know, that we're, we're tuned in, you know, we're tuned in and the league has done a, you know, a really extensive job to eliminate that as much as they possibly can. And hopefully, you know, we're going to have, we will have people on call for all of that. The security is very, is very extensive. I mean, this is a big deal, you know, what I can't imagine is going into your draft and you've got two picks. I mean, that's the nightmare of going into the draft. If you only had two picks, you know, it would drive us crazy because it would just, but what's that like with just two choices is all you get, you know, basically? Well, it's a different deal, obviously, because we have, you know, our roster's 14, 15 people. And so for us this year,

I mean, we're going to have a top five pick, which is the first time in I think eight years that we'll have a lottery pick. Last time we had. one was Harrison Barnes, who was a huge factor in us winning the championship in 15. And to be perfectly blunt, we need an infusion of young talent. We've been picking 28, 2930th. And I think that's one area where the NBA draft is very different from the NFL draft. It's possible to find an all-star caliber player in the second round or late in the first.

But it's unlikely. Whereas it seems like in the NFL, you can get really high quality players throughout the draft. But for us, you know, top five, we have a pool of probably 10, 12 guys who, you know, our front office has given me 10 or 12 guys to study. We're looking at that for the first peck. And then we have two picks in the second round based on a trade that we've made this past season. and there'll be a pool of another 20, 25 guys. And so we have scouts, you know, just like you guys do,

who are out watching all season long, and they're kind of whittling it down and trying to narrow it down so that we can make the selection a little bit easier. Yeah, when you think about it, we're going to take, we basically have seven picks is what you get for the 60-something or odd numbers that will wind up being.

You know, you're going to go with two picks for 15, you know, it's kind of relative. when you think about it as far as your opportunity to infuse talent. But it certainly is an exciting part of this whole job that we have. And it's a whole different set of variables and circumstances and talent and all of that. And we rely on so much on other people. I don't know. How much do you rely on your coaches as far as the evaluations as opposed to the personnel personnel?

Less on our coaches than our scouts. In fact, this is really the first time that I will really be involved in the draft. You know, the last five years, the draft has come a week or two after our season has ended because we've gone deep into June with the finals. This year, obviously not being in the playoffs. Even if the season had been suspended, you know, I would have a couple of months before the draft. So plenty of time to assess. But in general, I think Bob Myers, our general manager, does a great job.

of deferring to the people who are at the games on the road watching these guys night after night. So our involvement is more in terms of kind of what we're looking for, what kind of player, what kind of person. And once we get an idea of who's out there, that allows us to kind of narrow down the field. So this year we'll be more involved, but this will still be a decision made by Bob Myers and his staff. I'll have some input, but they're going to have their choice basically based on all the work they did all year while I was coaching our team and worried about something else. How's it work for you? Talk about the relationship. We have a crucial relationship with the general manager in the NFL.

I mean, it's such an important relationship. To me, it's the number one marriage that I have next to Glenn. You know, this is a marriage that we have to live together. we have to grow together. We have to accept each other's unique ways, and we have to find our way to get to, you know, a decision that we can really champion. And so there's give and take. There's just understanding.

There's a real willingness to make the relationship great. And I've cherished that thought in the NFL. When I came back to the league, it was really the most important thing that I was going to be part of, was to connect with the general manager. Because there's so much, you have to realize so much. on them. There's so much of the personnel that run in and out the numbers and all of the rules and all of the guidelines and all of the stipulations that we deal with, the general manager has so much to do with all of that. But we have to hit it as one. We have to see and think

and operate as one. And so is your relationship with the general manager and the NBA similar to that? Yeah. Yeah. I think you have to be really connected because it's such a high pressure situation. You know, everybody's jobs are on the line. And, you know, you can't, you can't be divided. And it can't be a thing where you make a pick and, you know, I'm walking out the door going, hey, Bob took this guy. But, you know, I kind of like the other guy. You know, you got to make your decision and everybody's got to be all in. And I think the other factor is your owner plays a big part in the NBA too. And I think the trust level between Joe Lekob, our owner, and Bob Myers and me, the three of us get along really well. We work together well. So there's a communication,

a trust. There's a lot of ideas that get thrown around. But in the end, we believe in each other. and we also are going to accept the fact that you're not going to get them all right. In fact, if you get half of them right, you're doing pretty well in the NBA. I don't know if it's similar in the NFL, but I would think that unless you guys are connected, you and John, every step of the way, it's almost impossible for it to work. Yeah, I've thought often, you know, that when you look at when a team in the NFL changes their leadership, and they're going to hire a new coach and all that. Often the owners will go out and they'll get the hot shot coach that's out there

and then they'll find the hot shot general manager and they bring them together and okay, let's go. We've got the two top talented guys. I don't subscribe to that thought now. I don't think that that's the best way. You've got to get guys, you've got to make sure that they can blend and they can function and accent the other ones' talents and strengths and all of that. It's too intricate. You know, there's so much at stake in these decisions making process.

and you need to be able to communicate at a really high level to function at a really high level. And so not necessarily to guys see things the same. And there's a million ways that do stuff. You know, there's no one way to do it. But you've got to do the best way for those guys involved. And the chemistry and the communication, I think, is really, really crucial. And that's great to hear that you guys have a good one there too. How do you weigh the talent versus the need when you look at your roster and you're picking 27th?

And you kind of know, obviously, you know, what you guys need in certain areas. but then you probably have a board like we do, you know, best players available at every position, all that kind of stuff. How do you weigh that and reconcile that when you make your pick? Yeah, it's a big, big part of it, you know, because you get drawn sometimes to the flash and the potential and all of that.

We all do. And we have to work our way through that. And fortunately, you know, having a lot of experience in a lot of years going through this thing, it allows us to try to talk our way through the pitfalls. There's pitfalls because it may be the need. We've got a burning need right here, but there's a fantastic player coming down the pike at you and your next pick and which way do you go.

It's very subjective. There's a whole feel to it and there's a gut feel to it that's really important. And there's a real big trust factor here too, as we make the decisions and all that. So we try to figure out where that's going to happen. And so we've tried to talk through the situations and the scenarios before we ever get there. so we're well-versed. Sometimes you get surprised and you get unique opportunities pop up in front of you and you have to scramble a little bit. But when that happens, we have enough confidence to go from our gut and feel that we're going to come up with the right decision, even though we weren't able to maybe orchestrate a choice we were going to make.

And with confidence, and you know, you wish for the best, you know, and then you coach your butt off to make sure it works, you know. And so, but that's, that's kind of how that goes. And there's a, it really comes down. There's a lot of trust that needs to take place. And we, our guys work so hard at it. There's, there's no issue of ever thinking that, oh, boy, if we only would have looked at this way or we would have done it that way. I mean, we exhaustingly go through the process. And John's a great competitor. And he's got his whole staff of guys that have been together for quite some time and they know how they communicate. They know how to process and they understand each other. All of the depth of all of that is really valuable.

particularly when you're making the, you know, the big decisions that are kind of on the move. When you talk about there has to be a level of trust when you make that pick, are you talking about trusting your gut, trusting each other, or trusting the player based on maybe an interview or a tape that you've watched, or is it all of the above? Yeah, it's all the above. No, it's all of that. And it's the exciting part of it, you know, that we're faced with those kinds of opportunities.

to make those choices. And that's why I say eventually, you know, what I like doing is I like to take all the information. But Grant used to say take all the time you have. What's the rush? What are you paranoid? You know, you say stuff like that, you know, take your time and think it through and use the time that's available. Well, that's what we do. And when we're picking, we just take as much time as possible. We may be looking at each other, not saying a word, you know, and John and I were sitting there and we're hearing from one of the scouts. We're hearing from one of the coaches approaches the table. We call them up. Let's get your last word on this guy versus this guy. and we may have an offensive guy versus a defensive guy

standing right there at the table, right where we're ready to pick, you know, to give us their final decision because we're okay about that. You know, we don't panic. You know, we're fine about it. We're watching the clock. We're okay. And then we'll kick the guys out when we have to.

And then we go and we take that final look at each other and let's go. You know, and there's lots of times when, you know, John will say, okay, I'm got you on this one. Or I'd say, I got you, go ahead, go for it. You know, we had a classic one with, the Russell Wilson was a great pick. He's a historic pick in our franchise. John was really, really committed and convicted on that one. He knew that this was going to be a great player for us.

I was excited about the whole process, but there was other people that were wondering, you know, and how could you take a guy that's not six feet tall, you know, and all that, and the calendar of play and all. But we've had many examples of that. That was one of the real classics, and I was really excited for John because he was really committed to it, and then look at the way it turned out, you know. So it was a very celebrated pick for us over the years. But hopefully there's another.

story here this year coming up. And we're just around the corner from it. Sure. Well, one of the things that I know we all talk about is, you know, you kind of want to get your kind of person, right? It's, you know, the talent matters. You have to have talent. But ideally, you get a guy with talent who is also high character, a guy who's going to fit

in your culture, your locker room. So thinking it through this year, you know, you have to trust a Zoom meeting. you don't get to, or maybe you did. I don't know, did you get a chance to sit down with guys at the combine a couple of months ago? Yeah, we did interviews at the combine. Yeah, and normally we would have a number of guys that we can bring, the league allows us to bring guys onto your, kind of like bringing them to campus, you know, and they come to the facility and you have a chance to do another look at them physically. We may have had questions in terms of their learning or their makeup or their background or there could have been, you know, all kinds of information were gathering. That did not happen in person. That had to happen virtually. So everybody's gone through that process. to get that final. But we've, you know, there's been a lot of conversations on these guys and in a lot of interaction face to face, but it's not quite the same, you know, when you're, you know, when you're zooming them as opposed to having them in there and you can talk to them and really get close. But that's relative again. Everybody's up against the same numbers and stats.

The thing I'm interested in, Stephen, in talking about maybe is, is the kind of person that we want to play with, you know, because this is, we're choosing talent now, you know, and we get a chance to, to, take all the information in and then where do you go? And I'm interested like how, when it gets right down to it, this is maybe one of your most active drafts and you're going to have maybe more input than ever. And there comes a time when, you know, okay, what do I feel about this guy? You know, is I what this dude on my team or not? You know, how do you go about that?

Some of that is sitting down with the player and interviewing them, which we're not going to get a chance to do this year more than likely. You know, our pre-draft is in Chicago, late May, usually. hard to see that coming together under the circumstances. So probably Zoom meetings. We get a lot of intel from college coaches, AU coaches. So our scouts are out on the road. And I'm getting emails every day from our scouts and our front office people. Here's all of our intel on so-and-so. And you read through that stuff and you can really learn a lot. You know, what a kid's high school career was like, what his college teammates felt about him, what he was like with the training

staff. You can, if you do your job, which our scouts do do their jobs, they're really good. You find out an awful lot about a kid. And I think where it gets tricky is you get far enough down in the draft where you're kind of saying, okay, this guy maybe isn't skilled enough, but we love his makeup. Or it's the opposite. opposite, right? Like makeup's kind of questionable, but, but he's pretty skilled. You know, now what direction do you go? And to me, it's, that's where you, you for sure make the decision based on the person. If you got a guy who's a competitor and a winner, I think you err on that side. And it's an easy selection for me to, to say, just take Draymond Green, right? 35th pick in the draft,

you know, everybody said when he came out of Michigan State, he's like, well, is he a four, is he a three? I don't know, but he went to the final four twice and he won two state championships in high school. So he's a winner. That's what position he plays, you know. And I think when you get to those points in the draft, if you can get a guy who you know is going to compete and fight like crazy and has a chance to fit in with your group, I think you take that chance.

Yeah. I've come even back in the days, we're in the draft for a year, college football, then went to the NFL and did the draft stuff and went back to college football and then here we're going back into it again in the NFL. The number one thing that has come through to me

for all of this time is when it gets right down to it, if when it comes right, if we can take this guy, take that guy, I want to take the guy that I want to play with in the park. If I'm going down playing hoops in the park or going to play football in the park or play baseball, whatever it was, who would I rather play with?

And that to me is, it's very subjective and it's very personal, but it's the guys, because I want to win. So I want to play with the guys that are going to help, you know, because they care so much and it's so important to them. And it may be way beyond what the physical stuff looks like, but you know, sometimes just these guys you just want to ball with. That's where I like to go, you know. We've had a lot of free agents over our years. We've been, we're going on 11th year now. So we've had a lot of free agent guys that they just got that thing about them. You know, they got that attitude about them, that chip on the shoulder, that, that it's so

freaking important to them to be something, you know, maybe not even great, but they got to be something. And they really have something that drives them and pushes them to, they're going to just outlast the next guy because they got a freaking win, you know. And so that's what, that's when it gets right down to all the stats, all the numbers. That's what I really wish we could go on this. We can choose on that element of this makeup of this guy. I want a guy, I want to ball with, you know.

Yeah, no doubt. Yeah. So tell me about last year you get D.K. Metcalf, second round, right? Yeah. Guy, I mean, I saw the, I saw the photos of him, you know, in the weight room before the draft. Like this guy, physical specimen. By the way, I heard you walked in when you met him and you stripped your shirt off and you said, let's come on, let's go, right?

Is that right? No, it's not exactly how it happened. we all seen the pictures and all that. And in the setup there in Indianapolis, we're in these little hotel rooms. And so he comes walking in the door, you know, and we're all set up with the table and all of them to do our interviews.

And he comes walking in with his shirt off. You know, so I said, okay. You know, so I ripped my shirt off too. And fortunately, I was lucked out. The camera was behind me. But, you know, I was okay, let's go, you know. And so we had some fun with it. And, you know, he was a little, you know,

I did humble him a little bit, so, no, I didn't at all. That was a fantastic pick for us, so, you know, and there was really an interesting story, too, because this guy had everything you're looking for in the measurable and all of that. And had only caught a handful of passes in his senior year, not, you know, 20-something pass or whatever it was. Had he caught a bunch of balls. But he was extraordinary, you know, in his makeup and his speed and his size and strength and all that. Well, more than that, and through the process, I've got to tell you, we, I didn't embrace what an extraordinary individual the guy was.

I didn't know that. There was so much hype and all that about him that it kind of precluded maybe even the good, clear analysis that I would like to have made. Because now that I know him, he's unbelievable. He is such a hard worker, and he cares so much, and he's smart. It matters to him. He takes care of his business. His world is in order.

He can't wait to get great. I mean, he's so determined to be a great player, you know. And we didn't know that right away either. It took a little time to get to know the kid because he kind of stood off because he just was such an amazing looking dude. But he's way better than all of that with the way he approaches his world. So is the reason he dropped to the bottom of the second round because his senior season was not that productive from a reception from a football standpoint? There was so much hype about him, Steve, that was so much buildup about him. And he just did some phenomenal things that he got picked apart so badly.

And guys felt like, you know, I think they felt we're not going to be the ones going to fall into the hype. And all of a sudden he's not, I mean, he's a top 15 pick going into the draft at one point or whatever, top 10 or whatever he was. I don't know. And then all of a sudden, the speculation about maybe he isn't quite this, he's too stiff, he's too this. He doesn't know the route tree and all this other malarkey. It just, it warmed down. Well, we love the guy. and so we weren't able to get him in the first round,

but as we went through the thing, you know, because we took another guy, but all of a sudden, somewhere in the middle of the second round, he's still there, you know, and it's like,

you could tell something was up. There was a stigma, something that happened, you know, across the league, and guys just kept, no, no, you know,

and they kept letting them go. And so John and I were sitting there, and we take a look, we're about six or seven picks away wherever we were, and we got a chance, you know. He's coming down,

you know, and we had a chance to make a trade, so we, positioned ourselves at the bottom of two. And sure enough, there's about three, then there's two, then there's one. I was blown away. I was just down the way that he made it to us and the hopes that he could be a fantastic player. And man, he's been great. So he had a great rookie season and he's ready to go again. I think sometimes it almost helps when a guy is a chip on his shoulder because he drops in the draft, you know, and I'll go back to Dremont. I think Dremont was 35th. I think he was

He talked about him late first. He goes 35th. And to this day, he's been in the league probably seven years now. To this day, he can name all 34 guys who got picked before him. And he doesn't hesitate to do so. And we had a guy like that last year, Eric Pascal from Villanova, second round pick. And this is where analytics start to become a factor. And I'm going to ask you about that in your world, too.

But, you know, analytics have really taken over basketball in a big way to the point where, you know, players are getting picked apart on their shot charts. If a guy is a mid-range shooter, you know, you kind of shy away. You know, you kind of want a three-point shooter or the guy who can get to the rim. The mid-range shots are the, you know, kind of the least valuable. So Eric Paskill, who is just a specimen, you know, 240 pounds, 6-7, bouncy, athletic, unbelievable kid, easy to coach, you know, experienced, ready to roll.

Just wasn't a great three-point shooter in college. So he drops all the way to 41. And he had one of the best seasons of any rookie player this year in the NBA. And he was so motivated by dropping to 41. You know, he couldn't wait to compete against the guys who had been picked before him. And so that edge, you know, when you can, if you can feel that edge beforehand, you know, now you know you're on to something because, like you said, you just want to find guys who you want to play next to you and play pickup ball with because you know you're going to stay on

the floor and keep on. Right. Well, you know, the thing that happened with D.K., and, you know, he had the highest of hopes, I'm sure, as all the kids do, you know, as are going through it. And he winds up all the way down the bottom of two. And I think the first things he said is, why did it take? you so long, you know. He was dying, you know, through every pick, you know, and he just, you know, where were you, you know? And, but that in particular, I'm sure, is part of this makeup.

It is, you know, he's got something, he already has something to prove. He's got something more to prove. There ain't nothing more powerful than that. Hey, let me ask you a question. Can we switch gears for a second? Sure. With, you know, I was, I'm always curious, but I love hoops, you know, and all that. And to see the trend changing so much to the game is different now, you know, than it's been. But I think a fascinating question I have an answer I want to hear is being the, like, the all-time ever three-point guy ever, you know, in college and in the NBA and all you, you've got, that's been your makeup, your background, your whole world was gunning it down. To see the game kind of come, would you look at yourself like you were setting the trend and nobody knew it at the time

and the whole league is finally caught up with you, you know, with, you know, we're in curfashion now, you know, But what does that like for you? Because nobody has been any more immersed in being a great long-distance shooter than you. And now you see the game has shifted so much in that direction. I'm curious at what you think about all that. You know, one of the things I've been doing is watching a lot of NBA TV, you know, watching old games that are coming on. We all miss watching sports on TV.

It's killing it. So, you know, I'm watching whatever. I watched the Masters from last year on Sunday, which was great. You know, I saw some of game won from the 1988 World Series. I'm a Dodger fan, so the Kirk Gibson games on TV. I'm like flipping through the channels. Like, this is all we have now. But I found a game.

I played for Orlando in 1992. And we played a game in Chicago. Michael Jordan had 68 points or something. And it was Shaq's rookie year. I think Shaq had like 29 and 25. and I barely played in the game, but I was just enamored with the game because it was so different.

And Orlando is down, we're down three points with four seconds left in the game. I didn't remember this game very well, but I get in the game watching on NBA TV. I'm like, I don't even remember what's going to happen. Do I get a shot here? Like, what happens? And they flash on the screen,

they flash the three-point shooting for both teams. for the game and it was Chicago, two for six, Orlando, three for seven for the whole game. There's four seconds left in regulation. Think about that. I mean, that's, that happens now before the first time out. That's right. So I had no idea that stuff was coming. At the time, when I was playing, I would, I would take two or three, three point shots a game max because it just wasn't something that coaches harped on. And I just waited until I was wide open. I only shot the open ones. If I wasn't open, I just move it on. And to see the guys, the degree of difficulty that these guys shoot with, Steph Curry, James Harden, oh, it's crazy. Crazy. Did you think everybody

was missing the boat, though, that they should have let you shoot more back in the day because you could nail it? Or did you, you could have said something to lose or something, you know, or pop, you know, hey man, I need a couple more threes here, dude. You know. Well, I do think about that a little bit. It would have been nice to be in a situation where the coach just said, hey, just shoot 10-3s. On the other hand, because of the way the game is played, I would have to guard James Harden on a switch, too. So there are pluses and minuses to this whole thing, Pete. So defense would have been a lot harder.

Nobody can guard the guy. No, nobody can guard him. But actually, that's something I want to ask you about. It seems to me that the concepts are similar now in terms of the direction football and basketball are going to this idea of pace and space, right, getting teams spread out. I know in basketball, what it's meant is that you're looking for positionless players now. That's what we're looking for. We want guys who can guard three, four different positions, who can shoot, handle the ball,

play defense, you know, two-way players, guys who can just play, no matter who is out on the floor, they can survive out there. Is it similar now in the NFL in terms of that type of versatility that you're looking for? Yeah, and it's coming to the college game, too, and the high school game, I mean, the game has really spread out. It's become so much more oriented to the throwing game. You know, back in the day, the game was played just on a tabletop almost, you know, and it was to take care of the ball. You know, you didn't want to give the ball up. And as, as, as it, all the game has evolved. Coaches and players and expectations have shifted so much that you can now feel comfortable

about moving the ball, throwing the ball over the place. So that means, okay, let's get us more area, more space to, you know, to find guys, you know, opportunities. And that leaves the opportunity for smaller players and quicker guys and more mobile people on playing in bigger areas that calls for different kind of makeup. linebackers, the old, you know, Nitchke and Butkus and those kind of linebackers, I mean, those guys are great all-time players. They'd have a hard time playing now. You know, they'd be guards. You know, they might be playing, sorry, I'm going to hear from those guys. They're going

to be playing on the other side of the ball, you know, but beyond offense, you know, so the game has really shifted in. And the tempo of our game, like the tempo of hoops, too, I think, it's just picked up, you know, the clock's running. Let's get some more shots. Let's get some more balls thrown down the field. And so that has really, it has shifted the game. And you've got to hand it to the innovators, you know, the coaches that have had the willingness to go outside the, you know, the ranks and to shift the game around. You know, I say all that.

And then I'm still a real balanced, you know, coach in general. You know, I want to have the running game and the passing game because you don't know when you're going to need it. And we've done this for years. But we love to bomb you. We love to go down field. We love to stretch the field and explode and all that. So we're working all along to try to create those opportunities.

to still use the spacing of the field. And so the game has definitely changed. And the needs for players to be more versatile, like you're saying, it's accentuated. In the NFL, there's an old saying the more you can do. And that kind of has to do with that thought. If you could be a guy that you could use out of the backfield as a running back, well, that makes you have a unique quality to you. And the different receivers, it comes down, can the receiver block now?

I mean, of course, we get all kinds of guys that can run around and catch balls, but can the guy help you in the running game or help you in the short passing game? So there's a lot to it. And we've seen also the other, I'll shut up on this one, but the other one is about the quarterbacks, you know, the mobility of the QBs and to appreciate that mobility and to understand what it's like to try and defend guys that can run all over the place. It's an incredible different part of the game.

So that means the defensive guys have to be able to adapt as well. So it's a big transition for the game. No, I know that's, I mean, that's what all your opponents have to deal with Russell and scrambling around back there making plays. That's a nightmare. But when you talk about the coaches who have been the innovators, you know, in terms of pushing the game forward and opening it up, who are the first coaches who come to mind for you in that regard?

The whole college crew has done well. Chip Kelly had a lot to do with influence and a lot of people, you know, and he had learned with some other guys to speed the game up and the whole game transitioned from huddling to no huddling and communicating from the sidelines. And he was one of the guys. We had to play him in Oregon back in the day and got to see what that was like firsthand.

We were really in the transition of it. But to go back even further, in matter of fact, this is a guy that I've always held in such high regard is Marve Levy. You might not remember this, but back in the day when the K-gun was rolling at Buffalo, those guys were the first team that I can recall that really featured no-huddle offense.

And they had a great team with Ken. Kelly and Thurmond Thomas and Lofton and all the guys in Bebe and all the guys they had. But they had a whole new mentality about playing the game. And their excellence lasted. They went to four Super Bowls and they won their divisions like seven times when he was there or whatever it was. They had a really long run of high success. And then nobody else did it. And it just dropped off the face.

Nobody followed suit, you know. And so there was the innovation. It was there for us, but we didn't capture it, you know, because in the league it's hard to make those big transitions because you're so scrutinized and all that. but you got to give it to those guys because Marv Livia was one of the first guys, you know, he was he was way, way, way ahead of his time and people followed suit. So it's been it's been fun to watch. I know the NBA is kind of a copycat league. So whoever has success, everybody else kind of watches and says, all right, let's do it that way.

I remember in the 80s, you know, Houston ended up with Sampson and Ilajuwon at the Twin Towers. you know, and they were, they were tough. So everybody started to get two centers. They said, all right, we got to go big. The Lakers, when they were winning titles, they had Kirk Rambus playing power forward. You know, they had all those all those superstars, but then there was Rambus, kind of the dirt worker. And everybody said, oh, we need that guy. And I think that's how the NBA is.

But in general, it's the teams that have cracked through, won the championship that have set the tone. So I'm wondering if Levy's teams just because they didn't win the Super Bowl, like if they had just won one of those Super Bowls. Yeah, had they won one time in there, it might have made a much bigger influence. It sure influenced me because I was in the AFC East at the time when they were doing all that. I was coaching defense and they were killing us. It was really hard back in the day, man. There was some real nightmare games we played against those guys because it was so fast.

And there was all kinds of tricks and things we were trying to do to slow them down. and we couldn't do it. You know, they were an incredible team. Is that like the defensive lineman, like, goes down and fakes the injury? Were you doing that one? No, no, we would never have done that. I don't know. Whatever it took, you know, back in the day.

You know, a guy that I really like is, think about what Pat Riley did. Remember how the New York teams? And they were just so tough and so rugged and so physical and all that. And then he goes out, you know, and he's got the Lakers. And they weren't like that at all. They totally think about that. that spectrum that he was able to coach. And guys that had, he was just a great ball coach, you know,

and he knew how to figure out how to get the best out of his guys and all. But I love seeing that. I love seeing guys that have that flexibility because they're so competitive, they got to go where they got to go and they figure out a way, you know. That's right. He's one of those guys. It's a classic, I think. Yeah, I think that Riley is one of the all-time grades

and has always adapted to his talent. But he also had the advantage of watching Chuck Daly. win a couple championships in the late 80s by slowing things down and just beating the crap out of everybody. Yeah, he knew it. And then all of a sudden, Riley's got Ewing and Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason and Xavier McDaniel. And that team was so physical. It was incredible. But yeah, the league over the last 20 years, it's really interesting. When you think about it, both the NFL and the NBA have really relaxed some of the rules to favor the offensive side, not wanting the game to be too physical, so there can be more scoring, more fluidity, more athleticism. And I think by and large,

both leagues have been very successful in creating a more entertaining sport. I don't know, I know you're kind of a defensive guy at heart. Maybe it's not easy coaching in the modern NFL. It's been an ongoing challenge But it is part of, you know, You've got to go with it and all that But it was, we've witnessed a real shift And a real change and it's exciting for the game And the thing I like about it,

It's worked its way all the way back Through the younger levels of the game, you know, Where kids can throw the football, you know, kids have thrown thousands of balls by the time they get to college, you know, the high school quarterbacks and all And it was amazing to watch that When you used to recruit, we recruit guys, You see them as freshmen and sophomores coming up, you know,

and they're 13, 14 years old doing crow routes and the hook and goes and crossing routes. How did that ever happen? How did the coaches ever get to that? But they did. And it's a real statement about just the game keeps fluctuating and changing. Yeah. Well, let's wrap it up. And let's do this.

The one that got away. Like, is there a draft that comes to mind where you say, man, you know, there was a guy we had our eye on and something happened. and we just couldn't get it done. Every year. I'll put you on the spot. Every year it's like that. Yeah. There's guys you just fall in love with and you just, you know, you can picture it.

You go through the whole process of, you know, envisioning how it's going to be and the team's going to go this way and that way and you're going to do all this stuff and then, oh, no, it gets taken, particularly when you, you know, when they get taken right before you. But it's, there's so many guys, Steve, I couldn't even pick it out because it happens every year because we fall in love with guys, you know, and it's part of the fun of it too. because when you get him, like, D.K. was one of those examples. I was so in love with that kid. And I was just hoping I couldn't believe we'd ever had the shot, you know.

So, but I don't know. There's always, I know John's got a bunch of his ones in the closet. Let me flip it around then. I want to flip it around and pose a question differently for you. We talked about, you got Russell in the fourth round. Third round. You got D.K. in the third round. D.K., late second.

How about another guy who, maybe a sixth, seventh round pick, who became a great player? There's a guy on my team right now, Chris Carson, who was a running back at Oki State. He was a junior college transfer, was going to go to Georgia. They took another running back. He's right at the very end. He winds up going to Oki State. Gets in there and doesn't do much playing. His junior, I think he got banged up.

He comes back his senior year. I think he had 82 carries or something in senior year. Somewhere along the process, I remember John saying, hey, you know, there's this running back at Oki State. Just take a look at him, you know, and see what you think. Well, I fell in love with this guy. I mean, he had style. He had toughness. He had the big 32 on him.

He looked great. You know, he had all the moves and all that. And so, but he wasn't well known, and he had been banged up and all that. And so we just followed, you know, followed all the way through the draft, you know, and I was, I started nudging John about the fifth round, you know, I'm giving him a little shoulder. Hey, what about you know, Carson's still out there, you know, and wait, wait, wait, okay, you know, we got this other guy. So I follow him, and sure enough, we had a chance to get him, got him in the seventh round.

And Chris came in and just was just, he was so much of a ball player in. our style of play and all of that, and he just fit in so well. It was one of my favorite picks that we were able to make, because I just thought that there was something really unique about the kid, and sure enough, man, he's had two or three great years for us and been really fun to coach. So there's guys, I'll tell you my favorite one, though. My favorite one is Richard Sherman.

Because Richard Sherman, we picked him in the fifth round, and Richard never let me forget it. You know, he was always pissed. And I love that about him, because we had them somewhere, like, in the third round on the board, but we didn't take him. We took somebody else. We finally take him. Nobody else took him.

We took him, you know, and he's pissed on us. Why didn't take, you know, what are you thinking? He's bids to you. And I love it because he was another guy that had that chip on his shoulder and carried him to, you know, just a world-class player and all of that. But, you know, some guys you can't please no matter what, you know, I think you're lucky to go drafted sometimes, you know. And so anyway, you know, there's all kinds of stories like that throughout the draft. Well, my story is, you know, I was a GM at one point with the Phoenix Suns. Wow.

Yeah, 2007 to 2010. And ironically enough, I think it was a 2009 draft, we being Phoenix, I think we were picking maybe 14th. And we tried to trade up to get Steph Curry. And we went really far down the road with the Warriors. And we thought, we're going to get this done. We're going to make a deal. And this is going to be the guy who's going to replace Steve Nash.

One of the reasons we loved Steph was we had this great fortune to watch Steve Nash win two MVP's and, you know, become this dominant player and this incredible leader and, you know, hero in Phoenix. And, you know, the guy whose jersey everybody wore, all the kids wore all over town. And the more we watch Steph Curry, because it wasn't. obvious watching Steph in college that he was going to be a star. I mean, he was, he was, he had to grow, he had to get better, but you could see the skill level. And so we actually thought we had a deal done that night and it just fell through. And the warriors ended up taking

Steph and keeping him. And I'm really glad, Pete. I'm glad that happened. I probably wouldn't be doing a coaching podcast with you right now if we didn't for that trade had gone through. Thank God for Steph. Hey, tell me real quick, before we leave it. What did you see about Steph? Did you anticipate he would be such a bomber, that he would shoot like that and be such an extraordinary long-distance bomb guy, you know? It just made him for a smaller guy.

His range is awesome. The first time I saw him was, he was playing, I think his sophomore year he was playing against UCLA in the John Wooden Classic in Anaheim. And he looked like he was 12 years old. And he was, you know, he probably weighed 150 pounds. But from a skill standpoint, he was just mesmerizing. And he really was so much like Nash, just the combination of the feel and the handle and the shot. And you could just see how further along he was from a hand-eye coordination standpoint than anybody, even anybody in the NBA at that point. He was right there. He would have been right there with Nash and all the other very top guys you'd think of. But it just, you know, you just didn't know,

because he looked, like I said, he was 150, 160 pounds and looked like he was 12. And, you know, it was hard to picture him in a group of men, but you could see the skill for sure. And, but I don't think anybody could have predicted, you know, what he's, what he's become. Pretty amazing. What an amazing competitor and player. So much fun to watch. Yeah. You know, being an old Bay Area guy, you know, I've always been a Warriors guy, you know. I mean, that's where we started. That's right. Marin, right? Yeah, born in San Francisco and all that. And so it's always, all my buddies and all, you know, that we've always followed the Warriors really closely. And so we've had a blast with you, you know, the years that you guys have been there and

done so many great things. It's been fun. Did you, were you there when, uh, were you there when, uh, when the 75 team won the championship with Rick Berry. Al Adels. A big Rick Berry guy. Yeah. Al Adels. Yeah. That was a great team.

Nate Thurman, we go all the way back to all that, all those guys. Great stuff. I think it was Tom Misheri or that his name? Oh, Tom Misheri. Yeah. His jersey's hanging on our wall.

He's one of the all-time great warriors. And actually, Tom and I stay in touch. We email each other. He's still a big Warriors fan. And, And topic for another day, we got to get the Sonics back. I can't even imagine.

They're so fired up for hockey coming in, you know, and hockey's coming to town. The Sonics coming back, I don't know. I don't know what it would be like, but it would be extraordinary if it ever happened. Yeah, well, we're all hoping for it to happen. Thanks, Pete. Take care. How's fun. All right.

Talk to you next week. Thanks for listening to Flying Coach. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, on Spotify, wherever. you get your podcast, don't forget about the ringer.com slash WCK if you want to help out World Central Kitchen. And don't forget to go check out compete to create Pete Carroll's website if you want to find out how to get a free online course and high performance mindset coincidentally called. Warriors Edge, enjoy the weekend. This feed will be back next week with yet another podcast. Thanks to Steve and Pete for doing this. Stay safe out there. See so.