The Ringer NBA Show - Warriors on the Brink of History (Ep. 123)

Episode Date: June 8, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon is joined by The Vertical's Chris Mannix to discuss who should be the Finals MVP, who’s to blame for Wednesday night’s loss, LeBron’s future, who the Celtics should select no. 1 overall, and how to plan for the Warriors from a GM's perspective. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey, Chris. What's going on, man? We were so close, Chris, to the narrative this morning being, see, they are beatable. See, this is a series again. Can't wait for Friday night. And then in two minutes, now it just feels like the series is, okay, when is this thing going to end, right?

Yeah, what's that old line about close and hand grenades and horseshoes and, you know, all that, I mean, it's, it's, it's, look, Cleveland gave Golden State's best shot. I mean, that was, that was everything they had. They poured it all into game three, and you expected them to do that. I mean, this is a team with a lot of pride and, more importantly, a lot of talents. And you saw the best from Kyrie Irving, the best from LeBron James, J.R. Smith made shots.

You know, they got, you know, an A-level performance, at least offensively, And I think we just saw just how great Golden State is. I mean, that Kevin Durant is making 26-foot clutch three-pointers is not a lucky shot for him. That's something this guy has trained to do his entire life. And I just watching the end of that game, you can just appreciate not just the greatness of Golden State, but individually just how great a player Kevin Durant really is. Is anybody to blame for Cleveland? What do you think?

No, I mean, I don't think you scapegoat anyone in Cleveland. I mean, people can point to LeBron and the pass he made to Kyle Corver. I always like it when guys make good basketball plays. I'm always fascinated by the debate that, you know, a great player should take a low percentage shot and not pass to a very good player who has a high percentage shot. I never really understood that argument. You know, Kevin Love didn't have his best game, but I'd point out the third quarter was a very good quarter for Kevin Love, and that's when they turned it from a six-point hole into a six-point fourth-quarter lead.

So I don't think anyone is to be scapegoated here. I think they got worn down and beat by a better team, and that's a reality. I think everybody in the NBA is going to have to live with. I feel like last night, there was part of me that was sitting there because you hear about the, they took their best shot and they still couldn't beat them. I really feel like the calves blew it, though, Mannix. I do.

That's because you predicted the calves to win. No, it's that well. Yes, you were going to take a victory lap. I've got the text message. I can screen grab and put it out there. You were going to take a victory lap off of this game. They did blow it. They blew it.

It's an 11-0 run. I mean, one stop, one bucket, anything, anything. It all went wrong. Look, here's where if you're going to pinpoint a possession that you can criticize the calves for, I think it's the Kyrie Irving jumper that he missed late in the game. after that, Durant 3 over Clay Thompson. Kyrie had a lot of success going to the basket and scoring either over Clay or through him. I thought he forced the three-pointer there.

I thought Kyrie should have continued to do what he'd been doing all quarter and just go to the rim, take the two if you can get it. Maybe you draw some contact like he had a couple of possessions before and get to the free throw line. I thought that was a bad shot. I thought that was a bad possession by Kyrie Irving. But everything else, it's not like there. they're letting Patrick McCaw knock down, you know, open three-pointers on the floor.

This is Kevin Durant and Clay Thompson, Steph Curry making shots. And I just can't, I can't be overly critical for a team that gets beat by those guys making shots. But this is the moment, right, the Kyrie thing. And you were talking about, you know, how we laud hero ball sometimes. They won on that Kyrie shot, right? It's win by the Kyrie shot, lose by the Kyrie shot. Like last year, we were like, look at the. the balls on this guy. This year he misses it and it's like, why are you taking that shot?

That shot's terrible. Like he made terrible shots last year and they won the title because of it. And so the difference is this year it doesn't go in. But we do like that. I think, and it's weird because all the LeBron stuff's coming up, right? Because it was like he was an innocent bystander to his demise. That's how people feel as they watch that game play out. And the whole idea that Durant walk that ball up the court or ran it up the court and then just shot it in his eyeball with all the pressure of the world, you know, game on the line type stuff. We love that alpha male, no one else is going to decide my destiny type, whereas LeBron is more wired as make the right basketball play. And so then we say that guy doesn't have a killer instinct or that guy is an innocent bystandard of his demise. And then we laud the Durant play, just like we.

would have listened. If Kyrie hits that shot, it's like, look at the stones on this guy, right? But instead, it's a cramped shot. Like, what the hell are you doing? Well, I mean, look, LeBron's made a lot of huge shots. I mean, he has not been a bystander

for most of his career. He's been the driving force behind three championships. And look, Kyrie's had a lot of bad shots. I mean, you go back to the Boston series in the conference finals. He took and made a lot of bad shots. I fought in that game that turned out to be a good ones because they went in.

I don't know, man. I mean, to me, it just boils down to what they're up against. And, you know, I thought Steve Kerr made a good point after the game when he talked about how they were, they believed they were going to become tired at the end of that game. That's exactly what happened. And they looked beat up at the end of that game. I can't imagine just the amount of energy it has to take the guy with LeBron to carry the offensive burden on one end and be the primary defender on Kevin Durant and the

I mean, Durant benefits in this series from being able to shift defensive responsibilities on LeBron to guys like Andre Guadala. LeBron, while occasionally, you know, Iman Schumper take that role, he defends Kevin Durant for the most part in this series. And that, I mean, the effort it must take to play 40, what, three minutes, you know, be an offensive force, defend Kevin Durant. It's a lot, man. It really is. So I'm not going to fault LeBron for making, you know, a pass or trying to make the right play. I give Kevin Durant credit, but I don't think you have to find somebody to fault to give somebody credit. The other thing is you were talking about going to the basket, and whether that's LeBron or it's Kyrie, what's crazy to me, the other thing is, and maybe it is through the prism of I thought they were going to come back and win.

I thought the game was going to slow down. I thought they'd get the calls. I thought LeBron would go bigger than he did. But in fairness, they got to the basket. Like you saw all the points in the paint Kyrie had. You saw LeBron being, and he has been throughout the series, been able to get to the basket. last night they were getting whistles, you know, when they were getting bumped. For them to take 44 threes last night, given those circumstances, was crazy to me.

And I know the argument, which is, if you take 44 threes, it opens up all that stuff. But I look at those guys and go, they can get to the rim anytime they want to have that high of a percentage of your... I mean, that's Houston stuff. If they were 12 of 44 from 3, like, let's just take 10 of those off. and let's make them 12 of 32 or 12 of 34. Well, like, 10 of those probably could have been drives to the basket where they're either making it or getting fouled. I just, I don't know.

Well, 10 of them probably should have been, especially after that first quarter. I mean, they made nine three-pointers in the first quarter of that game. That was a big reason they had that seven-point lead because they were awful once again when it came to turning the ball over. I don't disagree that Golden State takes some hurried shots. No, no, no, no. I'm talking about Cleveland.

I'm talking about Cleveland. When you were talking about them going to the bat, they took 44-3s, Mannix? Oh, I thought you would look at the cabs. No. No. No. Yeah. Yeah.

And it comes down to, for me, it comes down to the type of shots. And are they contested? Are they open? Are they in rhythm of the offense? Are they forced? And I agree. I thought they took some forced three-point shots. I thought they could have gone to the rim.

But, you know, when guys don't go to the rim, Chris, a lot of it is an indication of how they are physically, and how fatigue that they might be. When you take three-point shots, not every time, but coaches will tell you a bunch of times because you just don't have the mental strength or the physical strength to get to the rim at that point in time. They've got some great finishers in Cleveland. LeBron and Kyrie is good of finishers as a fine at the NBA. I think J.R. Smith, when he's motivated, can be a good finisher.

But they were just spotting up and jacking from a lot of different areas on the floor. They're trying to will themselves into the game in the second half. It worked in the third quarter. I'll give them credit. They were making threes in that third quarter. Kevin Love had a terrific third quarter, an overall bad game, but a terrific third quarter. They were making shots all over the floor in that third quarter. And that got them to that six-point lead.

But I don't disagree with you that going to the basket would have been more prudent for that team. I tell you, so many times we deal with hyperbole when we're watching stuff and can become prisoners of the moment, I really believe, like, under the rim player, that Kyrie's the best finisher I've ever seen. Yeah, I would agree. He's certainly the best in the league, I think, right now. I mean, dude, the carums, the angles that he hits these shots at, and it's under duress over any manner of defender. But I tell you, what's the most impressive part for Kyrie Irving when he has these games,

the last two series, that, you know, last round he went against Avery Bradley. And I look at Avery Bradley as the best, let's just say the best two-guard defender in the Eastern Conference. That's for sure, in my opinion. And he had that great game four. He went off against Bradley, and Bradley defended most of that time. And here he is in this game going up against Clay Thompson, an elite defender, who has had huge moments against everybody in the conference playoffs. And he's doing it.

I mean, he's making it look effortless against guys that are the best at their respective positions defensively. That, to me, has been the most impressive part of all this. That's why it's all that more frustrating that on that last possession, and Kyrie Irving decided to step back. I think he could have created space on Thompson. He might have been able to get a three-point play on that possession. I thought that was the most disappointing part of it because of all the success that he had going to the basket.

All right. So now if you are Cleveland, everybody, I think, last night, thought, okay, this is a death sentence. No one's ever come back from 3-0. And, you know, given a 48-hour turnaround, they'll probably get walloped on Friday night. Do you think they do the heart of the champion thing? We don't want to get swept.

don't want to be the victim of 16 and 0 and that they come out and we get another great game? Or when you were leaving that arena last night, thinking they're going to get their ass kicked? I think they get beat pretty good in game four. You know, just being there and being in the locker room and looking at the faces and listening to what these guys were saying, you could just tell that the life was kind of sucked out of them with that loss. They gave them their best shot. Somebody asked Kyrie Irving, you know, when you and LeBron have that 70-plus point, you know, type of night where you shoot a high percentage.

Could you ever imagine lose a game like that? And just look on Kyrie's face, the head shake and the slump shoulders, just reading body language. It took everything out of the man. And I don't blame them for that. I mean, that was, you know, winning this game would have changed the entire course of the series, as you said, changed the narrative. But I just don't think they have anything left.

I think Cleveland, I think Cleveland's game four in Cleveland is going to be a lot like it was, in 08 with game 6 between the Celtics and Lakers in Boston. I think the Celtics – I know the Celtics got a blowout win in that game. I think it's going to be comparable in this one where it's going to be more of a coronation where Cleveland gets buried under three-point shots and they lose by 10 or 15 points. I just don't think they have another punch left in them. You don't. All right.

So when you were there for the post-game stuff last night in that arena, I can only imagine the level of deflation. But what were the most interesting things said in your mind? I mean, Irving was the most interesting guy to take the podium to me, you know, just because of how deflated he looked up there on the dais. And, you know, he was asked, it's one of those sort of typical kind of, you know, how do you get fired up for game four type of question? He was asked about what you can, you know, build upon based on game three that gives you confidence that you can win game four. He really didn't have an answer for it. And Kyle Corver was asked kind of the same. question in the locker. He didn't have an answer. LeBron. He didn't have a lot of answers

himself. Just the fact that you just didn't see, and maybe you shouldn't see, when you're down three-zip, how much confidence can you really have? But you didn't see much in the way of confidence from this team. And I just think, I think it's hard to lock in on that whole just win one game mentality when you're playing this team. When you know that the only way for you to win a series is to win four consecutive games against one of the best teams in NBA history, I just saw a lot of deflation from those players, and that's why I think it's not going to be close on Friday. Ah, gotcha. All right, so you don't think that they're going to get slammed?

I think it's a double-digit win, and look, that's, you know, for Golden State, maybe that's not being slammed, but I think it's 10 or 15 points, and I don't think it's close in the fourth quarter. I think in the fourth quarter you'll see some garbage time for the likes of McCaw and others. So we got one. Yeah. We got one relevant fourth quarter. I mean, that's the crazy thing, mate. We got one relevant fourth quarter if that's how it ends up.

Yep, gear up, man, because you're looking at the next four years. Come on the barrel of this. I need you to be wrong. I need you to be wrong on this. I want this season to last longer. I was so mad last night. I really was. That's the first time.

The first time I've been mad since the San Antonio deal, which is that right, when Kauai went down and you were like, oh, God, this became non-competitive rather quickly. But how can you be? How can you be surprised at what we've seen? I mean, I pick the Warriors in five to start this series. I don't know where the illusion came from that the Cavaliers were going to be able to stay competitive with this team. I mean, the biggest thing I looked at, and it hasn't really manifested itself during the series,

but the Cavaliers are a bad defensive team. Okay, all right, let me defend. This is good. Before you go on, I'll defend myself a little bit. Because I did the whole paralysis by analysis. This thing was like the damn Super Bowl, right, where we had a week and a half before it was going to start. and where I started to talk myself into it was how great they were offensively throughout that Eastern Conference playoffs.

They posted, when all was said and done, the 120 points per 100 possessions was the best mark in 40 years. Now, there's been a lot of great teams play basketball against all manner of opponents over the last 40 years. They posted the best. And so my thought process was, okay, their defense sucks, but their defense really, primarily it's in transition. But they're not playing a lot of transition basketball because they score all the damn time. They are so good and they have really found their stride offensively. And love was killing people.

And one night it's Kyrie. And obviously you got LeBron who was playing as good as he has ever played. And what I did not account for was not only are they not going to score nearly that much. They're not going to score how they usually will. Like forget this exceptional playoff run offensively. They're just not, they're not going to get to play enough half-court basketball. And when they are in the half-court and when, and that's why I think this is a massive, massive error by Tyron Lou. Him playing at this pace throughout this series gave them no chance.

Hell, they walked it up and down the court two years ago and took them to six games. And they had nobody, Mannix. They had LeBron and me and you. No, I completely agree. I completely agree with what you're saying about pace. I thought that was a strategic error by Ty Loo. I would have walked the ball up, milk the shot clock, and played the closest thing I could to Dean Smith's four-corner offense

for the entirety of these last two games. You don't try to outpace one of the best-paced teams in NBA history. You don't try to out three-point shoot one of the best three-point shooting teams ever, maybe the best three-point shooting team that was ever. But I'll tell you why I was extremely skeptical about Cleveland coming in. I thought Boston, if Boston was in better shape, they win game four, and they turned that series on its head. They were in, you know, guys like Marcus Smart and others, I just don't think they were in the proper condition. I know they weren't to hold that 16-point lead they had in game four.

And if Cleveland couldn't slow down a motion-oriented starless Boston office, in the half court or transition, how in the world were they going to slow down this Golden State team? I had no doubt that Cleveland could score a whole bunch of points. They could go 100 plus every single night. I had extraordinary doubts, doubts that have played out in this series that they could hold Golden State anything under 115, 120 every single game. This is played out defensively almost exactly as I thought it would with this Cleveland team unable to do anything to slow down Golden State.

With that being said, let me ask you, let's just go back in time and let's act like the 16 and 0 thing. Let's say Durant never comes back or frankly, whoever they could least afford to lose, like Draymond, like an injury that caused them to lose in the Western Conference playoffs, right? Let's just say that happened. Do you think that if one of the other representatives, whether that would have been, and I suppose the favorites, would have been either the Spurs or the Rockets, right, if either of those teams were in the finals, Do you view Cleveland as the second best team, or do you think if, let's say the Warriors did not exist, could another team from the West have defeated Cleveland in a seven-game championship series?

Could they have, yes, I think the only team is probably San Antonio because of their defensive game plan. I know that they would have been pretty limited at the point guard position, but we saw how Popovich strategically places defense. I mean, what he did against Hardin in game six was amazing. Harden having to look at three defenders every time he tried to drive. I think they could have done the same type of thing with Kyrie Irving. I would have given Pop a real strong coaching edge in that series that would have made a difference. But I think that's a six or seven game series, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Cleveland could have won it.

And that's the conundrum, Chris, that Cleveland is in right now. They're good enough to beat every other team in the NBA. They're just not close to being good enough to beat their team they're going up against. And I watched a video on the vertical this morning, you know, outside of possibly a love trade or a Kyrie trade or trading, obviously you're moving off LeBron James. But outside of moving one of those guys, you're really playing the market in terms of getting the buyout guys. That's one of the things you talked about. and you're always going to be attractive when you have a chance at a title, and that's the way they were acquired, they were able to get, you know, they made the deal for Corver this year and they were able to get Darren Williams. And people forget, by the way, Bogot would have helped them a lot.

He would have helped them a lot, I believe. Listen, the theoretical Bogot, like the healthy one, not Hobbled Bogotin. But he would help them. So you're always, and so that would have helped them, but you're always going to be able to get. guys like that. But you look at it and if you're David Griffin, you'd take a step back and go, all right, now what? Do I just run it back and then try to play the buyout market? Or do I make some kind of big change?

Because if you are a GM, how long do you forecast out this is going to be, they're all in their prime, Chris? I mean, we're talking three, four years. Yeah. Right? I mean, so I don't know. What do you think the planning situation is like? Like if you're one of these teams that fancies themselves as a real competitor, one of the top three seeds, let's say, like a Houston or San Antonio or a Cleveland, like what are the discussions you have?

Well, I mean, specifically with Cleveland, you know, there's going to be change. You know, LeBron James, he's just not going to tolerate, you know, the kind of gap that exists. So there'll be a push for a significant change. I just don't know where it comes. I mean, the easy, you know, reflexive analysis is to move Kevin Love and get something back where you're more athletic at multiple positions and you get more defensive-minded. But if you're going to place, you know, blame. And again, I don't think there's blame in this series.

But if you're going to look at who hasn't delivered, you know, Kevin Love is at best, fourth or fifth on this list. Tristan Thompson has been a non-factor. J.R. Smith's been a non-factor. As great as Kyrie Irving was in game three, he was abysmal in game two, shooting the basketball. So I don't think that Kevin Love is this vulnerability that's causing them to lose this series. Plus, if you move a significant piece, it's not like you can plug a new guy or new guys into the mix and be better all in one season.

It takes time to develop chemistry with new players, especially if that new player is a significant one. So I don't think a trade is the right thing to do. If I'm David Griffin, I stay the course here. I keep everything together. I hope that I land somebody on that buyout market. I hope that one of my late first or second round picks that I'm able to acquire turns into a player. And then honestly, and it seems crazy, but then I kind of hope that something bad happens in Golden State because that's really all you can hope for right now.

And it's not just Cleveland. It's the Spurs. It's the Rockets. All these teams, I wish I could give you some kind of silver bullet here, but there is no panacea for this. There is no easy answer to this question. Golden State is a bunch of 20-something kids, you know, guys just hitting their prime that are going to be together for probably the next four years, and they're going to be a team that lures the ring chasers. Look, you're down there in Memphis.

What if Zach Randolph decides? You know what? I've made $174 million in my career. The Grizzlies, they're kind of going nowhere right now. What if I would be 36 in July? What if I decide I want to finish my career making about $3 million, come off the bench in Golden State, and win myself a championship? That's a hypothetical, but there are going to be guys like that. How dare you?

How dare you? You tell me you couldn't see it? You're sure it won't happen? I will tell you that that is a nightmare for me. An absolute nightmare. Can't do it. I'm telling you, but you go down the list, Chris, and I was doing this earlier in the week, whether it's Zach or Erson-Iliosovo or Brandon Bass or Chris Humphreys,

guys that could probably get, you know, $7, $8 million per year on their next deal. where if they decide to play for the $2.8 million vet number and go to Golden State? I'd tell you the more likely one would be Tony Allen. Yeah, another guy. Because any of these teams would want that guy, right, in order to, when it's time to deploy and you need to get a stop, or you need to make one of these guys inefficient, even if it's just for 20 minutes, right? There's a place on championship rosters that desperately need that element. And he's a free agent also.

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Let me ask you about, so we talk about it through the prism of, like LeBron's in Cleveland, right? If you're David Griffin. My buddy Kevin O'Connor, who does this podcast with me on regular occasion as a staff writer for the ringer. Him and Bill Simmons did this podcast, and they kind of bandied about whether LeBron would consider taking his talents somewhere else. And it echoes your buddy, Adrian Worgianowski, from the vertical. Like there's this noise going around that maybe when he becomes a restricted agent, a free agent in 2018, that maybe it's just not a known. that he'll stay. Wojianowski wrote last year, with the finals victory for

Cleveland secure, James could get to, quote, run off with his buddies again somewhere warm. And then Kevin wrote, multiple sources I've spoken to think the Lakers or Clippers are viable destinations. Jalen Rose said this week that he expects LeBron to make a move from Cleveland to California, where

he owns a house 30 minutes from Staples Center, and then it goes on. And this is the first I've ever even heard slash thought of it that maybe we're going to look up and throughout this warrior's run, it's not LeBron and Cleveland facing him. Well, I don't believe that he goes anywhere. And I base that not on, you know, what I've seen on the floor, but I base a lot of that

on LeBron's public commitment to Northeast Ohio that he made three years ago. He made it clear then that it wasn't just about basketball. And, you know, when I talk to people kind of in LeBron's orbit, a lot of what I hear is about the value that he sees in raising his kids in the area, his kids going to play at St. Vincent and St. Mary, just being a part of the fabric of this community, maybe being part of an ownership group within the Cavs down the line. I think he sees the value in that. Now, nothing's impossible with LeBron, and nothing's impossible when you consider the combustible relationship that LeBron and Dan Gilbert have had in the past. If those two,

wind up butting heads again, I could see that. But to people to think LeBron would go to, let's say the Lakers, for an example, what's the upside there? I mean, is that a championship team in two years with LeBron James on it? Let's put Russell Westbrook on that team. Is LeBron and Russell Westbrook a championship team not in the West, not against Golden State? And I know we're convinced that LeBron's invincible, but he's 32 years old. At some point, I don't know when it's going to happen, But at some point, he is going to start to regress physically, and he's not going to be the most athletic player in the floor, and he's not going to be the best player in the NBA. As that happens, is being in L.A. with Westbrook and with Lanzo ball, is that enough to eclipse Golden State? I just don't see it.

I think, look, LeBron's never going to be satisfied, but I think any changes that occur within LeBron's world, they're going to come in Cleveland, and they're going to come with the Cavaliers. Do you think if the Warriors go 16-0, they should be considered the greatest team? I do, and I base that along on a few things. First, I don't think that teams from the 50s, 60s, and 70s can be in the conversation. You know me, I'm from Boston. I have as much respect for the Russell Celtics as anybody in the world. But, you know, a one-handed Bob Cousie and a 6-9 Bill Russell are not playing in today's NBA. I similarly kind of feel the same way about the Lakers in the 80s.

The Lakers in the 80s, that showtime offense, as great and prolific as it was, like 118 points per game in that 86, 87 season where they averaged, where they had 65 wins. They attempted five threes per game and made two of them. This Warriors team this year attempted 31 May 12th. Yeah, but that's not fair. That's not fair because you could say that that Lakers team would have adapted. Like, are we letting them play against each other the way they played in the 80s? or we letting them play against each other? I don't think that's fair, because I think you have to look at both these teams.

Either one would have the advantage. If you played it out the way basketball was played in the 80s, the Lakers would be amazing. Obviously they were. They were amazing. Yeah, but, I mean, you're saying, you know, take this Golden State team and how they play and take that Laker team and how they play it. I mean, that's, you know, look, I don't think that, like, you know,

the Lakers in the 80s, I don't think that they could just board. into a great three-point shooting team. I don't think they were great three-point shooters on that team. I think you have to take these two teams kind of as they are. That's why I think Golden State would be a prohibitive favorite against any of those 80s Lakers teams because of the number of three. They bury them in. And look, Magic makes the point about Kareem. Okay, look, they would have massive problems defending Kareem. Don't get me wrong. But how in the world is Kareem staying on the floor when the small lineups out there? When they're playing Dremont at 5, when they're running up and down and playing at that temple?

I'm just not sure that he'd do it. The team that gives them the most trouble is that mid-90s Bulls, just because on that mid-90s' balls teams, there are a lot of two-way players. You know, from Rodman to Pippin to Jordan, there were two-way players up there. Robin, I mean, I give him credit offensively, being offensive rebounding menace, but defensively he was a force.

Jordan Pippen, two-way elite, top 50 NBA type of players. That's the type of team, and they made some threes. That's the type of team that I think would give Golden State fits. I think that is a dog fight. I think the Warriors, I think they'd be a comfortable winner in a series of the Lakers. So you think we are witnessing the best team ever? But they have to go 16 and 0 or no? Or you think even if they don't?

Even if they don't, I would probably still consider them that. I mean, man, you know, the Lakers, that Showtime Laker team, they had seven players averaging double figures. This warrior team, I think they only have four, but three of them are averaging 20 plus. So they're top heavy, more top heavy than that Laker team is. But when you're top-heavy with Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, and Clay Thompson, you know, two of those three you can put in the discussion or eventually will put in the discussion about the top four best players ever at their respective positions. I just don't know how you compete with them.

Well, it'll be interesting to see. Curry and Durant are shoe-in Hall of Famers. I wonder if the other two are, right? Like when we look back at championship teams and we talk about a number of Hall of Famers, when it's all said and done, do I look back in 30 years at Clay Thompson and Draymond are Hall of Famers? I would think Thompson is more likely because of his two-way game. Green is, you know, he's not poor man's Rodman, so to speak, but he's always going to be known for what he does on the defensive end of the floor.

If you end up with four rings or something like that, right? It might come down to a number of championships. If it's four plus rings and Draymond Green is a starter, and he's a multi-time defensive player of the year, it'd be hard to keep them out. I think it's distinctly possible. I just think if you're going to rank them, I think it's Thompson first to get in in green after that. Okay, let me ask you about Kevin Durant.

I'm going to make Kevin Durant our Captain Morgan's moment of the week. Durant has been absolutely unbelievable throughout these playoffs and then amazing during these finals. He has been out of his mind and this whole coming out party. It feels like he's never going to get all of the credit that he deserves, right, Mannix, because there is this level of resent that takes place with him. And it's, you know, like once upon a time LeBron went and he put together his team. And I know he didn't join an amazing team.

But he put together a team and then held a concert and told everybody not six, not seven, not eight. And then he fell on his face against the Mavs. And it was the great, like, every fans loved it because it was like this guy got really humbled, right? By Dirt Novitsky, Nolex, who was an intensely beloved player. This isn't going to happen with Duran. I mean, he joined the 73-win team, and he's going to win the title exactly how everybody thought it was going to place last July. And I feel like he's still probably not going to get all the credit he deserves because of the decision he made last summer, don't you? No, he won't, and that's the price you pay.

You know, he's going to win championships. He's going to, you know, he can still potentially, I think, win MVP's maybe even one or more. But he's never going to get full credit because of what he did, because the person. reception. And it's a, look, you know, it's viewed disparagingly to call someone a ring chaser. It's like a lesser form of basketball player. Well, no, it's like when you were bringing those guys up earlier in the podcast about guys that could jump on is, right? Like, that's how we view it. Yeah.

Guys at the end of their career, when they were in their prime, they weren't good enough to pull it off. And so there we are at the end of their career. And they want that to make them whole as a player. They want that to be able to be on their resume, and so that's all they care about at the end. They've made all the money when they were in their best years, but now, you know, right, they want – when they open up their Wikipedia page, they want it to say NBA champion. Yeah, agreed. And so it is a negative connotation to that.

And I think a criticism of Durant that's going to be pretty consistent. It's what I think it's fair to is that I think there are going to be people out there, myself included, that belief he could have won multiple. championships in Oklahoma City. That recognized that last year, three one down or three one up, a chance to win and that and probably go on and win a championship that year with Westbrook,

that that could have been consistent. They could have been a super team of their own right in Oklahoma City. I mean, I cringe, Chris, at the, when they say that Curry and Durant are one of the best twosoms of all time. You're never going to convince me that Curry and Durant are better than Westbrook and Durant.

not after half a season or three-quarters of a season playing together. They might get there, but over multiple years, at least the last three in particular, Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant were two of the top five or six players in the NBA. They were elite as a two-sum. Hold on now. Steph Curry was the MVP of the league. Okay, but, you know, how is this hyperbole coming up? They're like, oh, my God, let's start comparing them to Jordan Pippen.

You know, Steph Card was the MVP of the league. Russell Westbrook's probably going to be the MVP of the league this year. So I think they're at a bare minimum, Chris, they're on the same level. Curry and Westbrook. Curry and Westbrook versus – no, well, Curry and Westbrook versus – it's more – no, Curry and Durant and Westbrook and Durant. I don't think there is a gap between those two, you know, twosoms. That's interesting because, listen, they obviously both, right?

You just saw – they should have beaten them last year. I mean, they should have beaten Curry last year. They should have been. Let me give you this hypothetical. let's say it's Clay Thompson. That's the free agent last summer, not Kevin Durant. And let's say they lure Clay Thompson, Oklahoma City. My opinion, that's a 70-win Oklahoma City team that storms to a championship.

Seventy? 70. Because, you know, one thing about Westbrook, and like everybody looks at what Westbrook did this year, and yes, he's not as easy to play with as a Steph Curry might be. But Westbrook would adapt. I don't think Westbrook wants to go out there and shoot 30 shots a night. I think if he had Clay Thompson on his team and not, you know,

Andre Roberson out there, I think he'd be more inclined to pass the ball to an open Clay Thompson and not open Roberson. I think that team would be elite. And that's why I just, I think there'll be questions about Durant. Could he have gotten that extra guy? They tried to get Al Horford. Could they have gotten that extra player that would have made Oklahoma City into the super team and not had to go and jump on board with the words?

Well, by the way, in fairness, they had him. He's about to be second in MVP voting. Exactly. Right? Exactly. And that will be, I mean, we don't need to go down that rabbit hole. But that will be, you know, Sam Presti's ultimate mistake, that he misjudged the salary cap, that the Thunder misjudged the salary cap.

They wouldn't give James Harden that a couple extra million bucks, and they're left, you know, watching, you know, two players win potentially MVP's without them. You think he would have stayed? Now, that's the argument I get from the Oklahoma City brass that he never would have been happy being a six man out there. James has told me he would have. I don't know for whatever that's worth at that point. We see what Hardin is now.

We say there's no possible way. But, you know, again, it goes back to the Clay Thompson sort of discussion about could Clay, you know, lead his own team? And Clay obviously could. He's not on Hardin's level, but he could be the alpha male on his own team. He's told me and he's told others that, you know, winning just means too much to him. Would James Harden have, you know, been so obsessed with winning that he would have taken a back seat to be a champion for multiple years? I don't know. It's one of the great questions we'll always have. Kevin Durant's our Captain Morgan's moment of the week, the way he's been playing,

no matter how you live like a captain. Captain Morgan reminds you to please drink responsibly. Captain's orders. Manix, you think they're going to get bashed tomorrow night, huh? I do. I don't think it's close. And then the season's over. Thank God. Last two things you covered the...

I want to go home. I want to drink beer. You covered the Celtics all year. Last two things. A, or number one, do they take? Fultz number one? They take Fultz number one. Okay.

Number two, do they bring back Isaiah Thomas on a big extension? No, not this summer. I think they've made it clear, and I don't know it's for a fact, but I get the sense that they've made it clear to Isaiah that this is not going to be the summer he gets paid. Because remember, to give Isaiah the extension, they have to go into their cap space. They've got plans for their cap space. He's about six, seven, with good hair, and he plays out Utah. like that's how they want to

spend their cap space. But I'll tell you what could be interesting. And this is the grand hypothetical I've thought of, and it makes sense only in the, you know, in the Danny Ains universe because Danny and Wickrow Speck, the owner of the Celtics, they're the ultimate gamblers. Let's say they go out and they can convince Gordon Hayward. But I think that's distinctly possible.

I think that, you know, playing in the East and playing for Brad Stevens are going to be appealing to Gordon Hayward. Not a guarantee or any stretch, but I think it's a very appealing prospect. Well, it's not a money decision really anymore. after he didn't make the all NBA team. It still is a money decision. I mean, the guaranteed years are still money, but for a guy his age, who can probably get a three-year opt-out

and then make all the money back, it's not as big a deal without that all-N-Bating. Here's the thing with Boston. So let's say you get Gordon Hayward to commit. And Gordon is there. You're starting to guard all that. If you're Boston, and Paul George has told Indiana that he's not going to resign, why wouldn't you call Kevin Pritchard at the Pacers and say, look at our roster.

Here's a list of like seven guys. and I'll put Avery Braddon in the list, Marcus Martin the list, good players, you know, good, high-level young players. As long as Avery's been in the league, he's 26 years old. So these are good young players. Why wouldn't you go to the Pacers and say take your pick of three or four guys, take any of our draft picks besides the Nets one for next year? Why wouldn't the Pacers be interested in that? If they're going to deal Paul George, the number of suitors are going to be extremely limited because nobody's going to give up anything real to get Paul George without a guarantee,

and it's been made clear to me, he's not going to give anybody a guarantee, except for maybe the Lakers. If you're the Celtics, is that not a reasonable roll of the dice? Because if Paul's going to leave, if you trade for Paul George, you give a smart, Bradley, a couple of draft picks, maybe something else. If you trade for Paul George, do you really believe that Paul George is leaving that team with Horford, Isaiah, Bradley, plus Fultz and Jalen Brown and maybe Michael Porter, you know, next year, do you really believe that Paul George is going to love

Southern California so much that he's going to leave a potentially 60-plus-win Celtics team with a bunch of kids around him that's only going to get better. That is the exact type of gamble I could see the Celtics making in the summer. That's the only landscape-shaping off-season I think could possibly happen. Yeah, and they've got, I mean, listen, they've got the goods to be able to present the trade. They do. They do. Market Smart.

Look, you could offer the Pacers a legitimate starting backcourt of 20-somethings of Smart and Avery Brow. That's a good backcourt. You're still getting 50 cents on the dollar. Don't get me wrong. Paul George is an elite player. But if you're not getting him back and you're not taking that risk of rolling the dice of playing out the season, and I just don't see an offer better than what Boston could put together without Boston giving up any of its core pieces. I think I agree with you on that.

He is Chris Manning. You can follow him on Twitter at Chris Manix YS. You can read him on the vertical. You can listen to him on NBC Sports Radio on the Chris Manick show and check out his podcast. And they're going to be doing the vertical with Woj is going to be doing your draft stuff, which is going to be Thursday, June 22nd. I hope, I guess tomorrow is going to be the last big NBA event we have until the draft, unless Cleveland can pull it off and force a game five.

Well, I think the draft at least could be interesting. Yes, because I think after number two, I think it gets real fun. Hey, hey, hey, after number one. Well, I think Lonzo goes to. I think that Fox kid has a real chance. Yes, he does. Mark my words Because you saw a video of him making jump shots and workouts

No, no, hold on now, Mannix I was there for the Kentucky UCLA game Yeah I was in the arena You know who was on the front row Magic Johnson Yeah Yes

You can watch I don't care if it's one game You could not watch that shit And walk out Going, I want the UCLA kid I don't think they're playing games in LA I think they're all in on Lanzo ball I think he's...

Wait till Danny Hage takes him and shock to the world. That's another one, too. The Fultz, they talk about Fultz a lot. They've been talking about Fultz a lot in Boston, not Danny, but the basketball staff have been enamored with Fultz for months, like before they got the number one pick. Oh, really?

That's what makes me convinced that he's number one. All right, well, enjoy a game for tomorrow night, man. Let me ask you this, though, quickly. Do you think that Cherise Wright spoke to his Uber driver on that Uber from Chicago to Buffalo? Do you think there was any conversation? Probably a lot, I would imagine. I wonder, because if that Uber driver didn't talk, I want his name, and I would like him to be my Uber driver.

They're probably like best friends. What was it, an eight-hour Uber? Is that right? Yeah, but it was like $900. How does an Uber driver make any real money off a – don't you spend that in gas? I don't know. Do you know – you've heard of some of these stories from Uber the best are. The best are like when you'll find a – I'll read these stories about like some kid that goes to LSU, and it'll go to like Burbby.

Street, right? And the guy, the kid gets so hammered that when he types in like the, you know, to get the Uber, he presses home. And he'll wake up in the morning and they'll wake up in the morning and the guy all like driven him back to Memphis or something. That's just a rookie move. That's a rookie move. I told you that in, I texted you in L.A. Yeah. I canceled four consecutive Ubers because the, because the driver had a big, they had too many big smiles. on their face. I actually sat in the lobby of the Manhattan Beach Marriott for 20 minutes, you know, hitting, send and cancel until I got this grumpy-looking driver. And it paid off, too, Chris, because that driver, in the hour-long car ride, I had to take to Pasadena, did not talk to me.

If you want to, for anybody out there that drives Uber, if you want to be able to pick up Mannix, make sure your profile pitcher is super grumpy. Silent ride. Silent ride. Mannix, I'll catch up with you soon. Thanks, brother. Anytime, man. He's Chris Mannix from Yahoo.

That's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. We will talk to you next week. Today's podcast brought to you by Hotels Tonight. Things change. The weather changes. Your mood definitely changes. So why lock yourself into plans that might change? With Hotel Tonight, you don't have to

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