The Ringer NBA Show - Warriors Sweep, Manu's Next Move, and the Celtics' Future (Ep. 115)

Episode Date: May 23, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss the Warriors' historic run to the Finals (5:00), Manu Ginobili's potential retirement (12:00), the Celtics' improbable comeback (24:30), Kevin Love's draft workout (33:00), the importance of "tweener" players in today's NBA (37:00), and the Celtics' impending free-agency decisions (41:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Miller Light. Miller Light is brewed not only to taste great, but also be less filling. It only has 96 calories, so it won't fill you up. It's brewed to be enjoyed from Tip to the final buzzer. It's the original light beer and has been since we first showed up courtside in 1975. Miller Light. Also want to remind you, the NBA Awards are going to be on TNT Monday night, June 26th. Live from New York City, the award show is going to begin at 9 Eastern, hosted

by Drake. The Inside the NBA crew is going to be present. All NBA awards being announced at that event. The awards are changing this year. They previously were announced sporadically once the season ended. Now all in person and the recipients are going to have this brand new award show. Studio crew of E.J., Kenny, Chuck, and Shaq are all going to be there and have a large presence at the show. There's going to be all kinds of new awards that the fans have had a chance to vote on. Best style, block of the year. Game one. winner of the year, assist of the year, dunk of the year, performance of the year.

It is the NBA Awards on TNT, June 26. That's Monday night at 8 p.m. Central. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor. Kevin. So long to Manor Genovoly, Chris. You know, let's talk about the series first,

and then we'll get to Manu. Listen, the series, I resent this series a lot, given what we saw in game one. And then obviously the Kauai Leonard thing was just a bridge too far for San Antonio. And in the end, the Warriors just shot 54% for the series. Curry had 126 points on 56% from the field. And Durant had 112 points on 60% from the field. I will contend, Kevin, that if Curry shoot 50%, 56% and Durant shoot 60% for a series.

There's nobody that's going to come close to being able to beat them. They both were crazy efficient simultaneously. And I know that the spurs were really down, you know, clearly their best player, and they didn't have much of a shot in the series after that. But on the flip side, those guys admittedly did play about as awesome as they could. I mean, isn't this like what we imagined, Chris? This is kind of like what we feared like Golden State could be. They are just, I don't want to say they're unstoppable

because they're about to potentially go against LeBron James and the Cavaliers, but it wouldn't be surprising to me if they go four or no. It just wouldn't, especially if Andre Iguidalla and Clay Thompson really get back on track because as incredible as they were against the Spurs and as amazing as they have been this entire playoff. You Godala and Clay Thompson aren't even playing at an optimal level right now. So what happens? How much better will they be if those guys are clicking on all cylinders like Kevin Durant is right now?

Like Stefan Curry is right now. I mean, I feel like that there's an even higher level for these guys, which is scary to imagine. You got to make life hard on one of them. I mean, damn. 60%, and it's not like these are post guys, right? Yeah, yeah. It's, yeah, but even if they were post guys, you'd be happy with that. It's just remarkable to see Durant and Curry playing at this elite level together when just at one point during the season, you know, the question was, are these guys able to play together?

You know, are they, or did they just watch the other one excel? I mean, those guys are, you know, have really learned how to, how to, I think, enhance each other as players. And we've seen that more and more in the playoffs. And again, like, I just feel like. There's still another gear. Like we still haven't seen Durant and Curry run that pick and roll with each other like the Cavaliers do with LeBron and Carrie Irving. We still haven't seen much of that at all. And I just feel like that is like the next step.

If they do that against the Cavaliers, I just question how the hell do you stop that? Yeah, but I will say this. The Cavs are not intimidated by them, right? Clearly, they have no reason to pay. They were down 3-1 and still won their series. And I do think even, I don't think the spurs would have been, but I think after the Kauai injury, you even heard Pop say it. My guys didn't think they could do it, right?

After the game two, where they just got wiped out. And, you know, I mean, it was bad. It was bad, bad. And they didn't think they could do it. And I think that it's not about coming out the gates. Because when you come out the gates, you know, you're pumped up, you're feeling good about yourself. especially when the home crowd's cheering for you, and you saw a couple good first quarters, first halves.

But then what happened is as soon as the wave hits, it's like, oh, God. And there's nothing that could stop it. There's nobody that could stop those runs. There was nobody, even when they would get it within, you know, five to seven points, then Golden State would turn around and rip off an 80 run or a 10-0 run. you're back up to 15 or 18 points.

And so, and I do think it was an indictment of Aldridge. He sucked. I mean, he was, you know, once Kauai goes down, he's got to be the guy. And it became rather clear that he ain't the guy. I mean, like that, what else you have him for, right? Like, that's exactly why you have Aldrich. So, like, when the number one guy goes up, he can slide into that role. And, I mean, you look at other teams, like, what makes the warrior,

so special is like they can survive a couple weeks without kevin durant because they have another guy that can slide up if if curry were out too they'd have another guy that could step up to whereas with the spurs like you would need lamarcus aldridge to elevate his role and he was unable to do that and like like at chaise serrano i mean we we saw le marcus aldridge the way chay serrano always does and that's just you know an overpaid classic prehistoric low post big man aldridge is one of those guys where I don't know if I he's a good player like he's still a good player but I don't know if he's a type of guy I just want to build around in today's NBA like you look at the Warriors and in the way they build with so much versatility and so much perimeter focus players that's the way you need to build like that applies to the draft teams need to be thinking about what what is the league going to look like three to four years from now and how do we want to build and I don't think players like Lamarcus Aldridge are really how you're going to want to build so if I'm the spurs you know I'm looking ahead and I'm thinking to our to myself, do we really want to hold on to Aldridge or could we maximize a potential return for him?

Because he's not the guy. And he's proven he's not the guy when Kauai's out. And even when Kauai is healthy and playing, Aldridge still had flaws then too. And if I'm the spurs, I'm thinking strongly about seeing what I can get as a return from Lamarcus Alder's this summer. It's just so hard because you always view things through the prism of whatever just happened. And of course, the spotlight got thrown on him.

He was terrible. And so now that's kind of what you think. Well, I still go back to what if Kauai, what if he doesn't get hurt? I mean, I do not think that they lose game one. I just don't believe that in my heart of arch. I think that they would have, he had like 26 points and 22 minutes. He was unstoppable. They were up by 20.

The numbers for the Popovich team, you know, when they're up by that margin, they just never lose games like that. Even if Golden State would have gone on a run. I just thought it was San Antonio's day. It was their night, whatever you want to call it. And then at that point, Golden State would have had to win four of the next six games, three of which would have come on San Antonio's court. I mean, that series just, I just believe it would have been radically different.

And maybe, I'm not saying the Spurs would have beaten them, but I'm saying it would have been radically different. And then we wouldn't go, well, San Antonio, we'll just never know. We'll never know how close San Antonio really was to being able to compete with the, with Golden State because given the circumstances, they just weren't not able to compete at all, right? I mean, I said this earlier. It sucks so much. It sucks so much.

And I said this earlier in the playoffs, Kevin, and I know that you rejected it, but it's the same thing with the Celtics. And who knows if Rondo doesn't get hurt, all right? They're up to, the Bulls are up too, oh. I think that the best you could hope for is a split if you're Boston in the two Chicago games. even if Boston would have got one of them.

Well, then they're up 3-1. And I know we've seen a couple of teams come back from 3-1 very famously, in fact, over the last couple of years. But I do think everything in Boston, even your article that will get to later, like that radically changes if they get wiped out in round number one. But instead, we'll never know, right? And now here they are, right? They're in the Easter conference finals and they just won a game against the Cavaliers. But I think it's what makes it so hard for these teams to figure out how to build because if they do the glass half full thing, they can always go into the offseason. And especially in the Spurs case, go, how close were we?

Like maybe we were close. Maybe we could have. If somebody from the Spurs thinks we could have beaten them if Kauai wouldn't have gotten hurt, I would not think they're a maniac for saying that. They might be wrong. But I don't think it's absurd. Yeah, it wouldn't be an absurd thing to say, but at the same time, it's like I said after game one, when we talked about that game, you know, after it happened, and I said to you, I still think the Warriors maybe would have won that game. I don't know if they would have won that game. I don't know. There's still a chance that they still would have won game one had Kauai stayed healthy. And there's still a chance they still would have swept the series had Kauai stayed healthy. We don't know. Like, it's impossible to say. And as you said, Chris, that that's what sucks about this. And, you know, for the Spurs, you know, I think, so with Kauai, healthy or not, I still think a lot of the questions for them entering the summer remain the same. What are you willing to pay Jonathan Simmons going forward when you already have Kauai Leonard and Dana Green kind of fixated as your two and three starters?

I mean, what about the point guard position? How do you fail about DeJante Murray elevating his role next season? Or with Tony Parker coming back from an injury with one year left, do you feel like you need to draft another point guard? is Genobley coming back? What do you do with Aldridge? Those questions, I think, remain the same no matter what. Like, even if this series went six games, I'm not sure that those questions would change at all.

I still think, you know, you would still have to look at that and say, what are we going to do here? Like, what direction is our team going to go? Because they're really in a transition phase right now. This is the first year of the post-Tim Duncan era. It's the first year of really the Kauai Leonard era. I mean, it's been his for a couple years, but it's, it's, It's his team now.

And I think they're really at a turning point right now where they need to figure out what the next group of, you know, championship level players are going to be on the San Antonio Spurs. And I think there's maybe a couple of them on the roster right now. But, you know, there's big decisions to come this summer, depending on how they want to use their cap space that they can create and how they want to use their draft assets. They should just blow it up. Blow it up! All right, Kevin, there's a lot of appreciation for Manu Genooboli last night. Now let's look at the holds true Manu Janobli stat of the week, his net rating presented by Miller Light.

So net rating is offense defense on the court, off the court, but it only goes back to 96, 97, because that's when we started getting play-by-play data. So you could check it out. He has a net rating of plus 10. 3, which would be the highest recorded. And obviously that's kind of shocking, considering all of the amazing players that have played the NBA. But the other thing that was shocking about that list is it was littered with San Antonio Spurs. And it speaks to what an amazing franchise they have been.

For those that did not see the list, number one in net rating is manage an obli, plus 10.3 over the course of every year back to 96-97, and this includes the playoffs. Number two, David Robinson, spur. Number three, Kauai Leonard, spur. Number four, Clay Thompson, Warrior. Number five, Tim Duncan, spur. Number six, Curry, and then the next four were John Stockton, Robert O'Re, Shaquille O'Neill, and Tony Parker.

And Tony Parker, obviously, another spur. I mean, that list was crazy. And the idea that Genobley has the best of all net ratings, that was shocking, was it not? Not really, to be honest with you. Really? The Spurs have been a winning team for 21 straight years. And Genobley spent all those years on that team. So, I mean, like a lot of guys, they bounce between.

LeBron has been to seven straight finals, Kevin. Yeah, but LeBron spent a lot of years early in his career on some pretty blah team. So like it's really just been the second latter half of his career where it's been like these dominant forces. And even this year, like the cavaliers were only like a, like a plus one net rating. And I don't know what they were with LeBron on, but I don't think it was like plus eight or plus nine or anything like that. So like the spurs have just been a dominant force for so long. And I think, you know, with the way they've performed with Genoblee on the court, it speaks to just how remarkable of an organization that they are with their ability to, build with sustainability as a focus, to always be thinking long-term with their moves and always

be one step ahead. I think it speaks not only to Genoble as a player, but more than anything else having multiple spurs on that list, just how incredible and how amazing the organization has been the last 20 or so years ever since drafting Tim Duncan and making the playoffs every single damn season since then. Unbelievable. It also speaks to how absurd these last couple of seasons have been for the Warriors. Because you know the net rating, the net rating on Thompson and Curry took a hit at the beginning of their careers.

Yep, you're right. Yep. Right. That, I think that might be the more shocking part to me, like, because they've had the three years in a row now with these absurd teams. But at the beginning of their careers, you're right. Like with the Braun, their net ratings weren't popping.

Like the Spurs, I think, you know, they were always in the pluses probably mostly every single season with their starting lineups. So, like, with the Warriors, like Thompson is going to, going to move up that list like next season i don't i don't know like what the numbers will look like but add on another 3 000 minutes another season he might he might move ahead of genobaly on top of that list uh depending on what happens with with the warriors but i i think i think that it really does speak to the amazement of the longitivity of the spurs and and um the the emergence of the warriors

and they're they're going to have that same type of sustainability and we we might see curry moving up that list too with Durant so he could move he could ease onto the list as well even though it'll be harder for him because of his early years with the sonics and then with the thunder i do what you always do which is when when everybody's talking about a guy you go and look up everything that you know the accomplishments of of genoble and four-time champion two-time all-star i thought he made more all-star teams than that honestly um two all-nbba third teams one of euro league championship was a euro league finals MVP um the other thing that was odd is I think I would have said that he averaged more points in a season than

he did. He never eclipsed over 20 points for a season, which is a little bit shocking. But even more shocking, only played an average of 30 minutes a game twice. In all of those years that he has played, he only averaged over 30 minutes a game two times in his career. How insane is that? For as good as he was, right? I mean, he clearly did it in a very efficient manner,

but to never average over 30 points and be as good as he was, I mean, shit, LeBron plays like 50 minutes a night. There's only 48 minutes. Somehow he averages like 46 for stretches. But this guy never played over 30 just twice in a super long career. It's incredible, man. I mean, he, I remember, you know, watching him all through the years and just, and, like, sometimes, like, there would be debates of, like, why doesn't Genobley start, right?

Like, why don't the Spurs start Genoble? It's just he, he was so effective in that sixth-man role coming off the bench for the Spurs and occasionally spot starting that. I guess in some ways, like, why do anything else? I mean, there's, there's some logic to, like, for certain players, instead of playing them for 34 minutes a game or 33 minutes a game and having them stretch out, like, their production over that long period of time. Sometimes they can be more effective in fewer minutes on the court because they're able

to just to play with that style that Genoble did for so many years. Just this, that aggressive style, intense energy on both ends of the floor. And like with him, like it was so unique because like there really isn't a guy that's been in the league like him. I can't recall a guy like him. Just the way he played the game, the type of passes he made, the fluidity with which he played with. I mean, if Genoblee does retire this year, if this actually is his last season, I'm going to miss him, but more than anything else, like, I'm going to miss watching a player like him.

And I hope there's a day in the NBA where we can say, oh, that guy reminds me of Genobley. Like, doesn't he remind you the way he plays? Because when that player does come along, it's going to be super fun. And like, we're going to fall in love with that player, just the same way we did with Genoble, these last, really this entire century of basketball with the San Antonio Spurs. It's been remarkable to watch him play, Chris. One thing I will say too is I've always wondered, and let me get your thoughts on this. What if he would have left? Obviously, the story of the Spurs is that the guys didn't leave.

But he is an outstanding team basketball player. And he has been part of great teams with other great players for the extent of his entire career. And once upon a time, James Hardin was a third wheel, right? and he went and did his own thing. And we see Hardin has become one of the great players in the league and proved he could be the best player on a really good team. I wonder if do you look at Genoble and go, okay, those are his numbers,

but his numbers added up to winning, and he was a consummate winning basketball player. He could have gone off and gone to some other team, and maybe he does average 25, 27, you know, whatever, points per game. You know, I think we do this with Thompson, too, right? What would happen if Clay Thompson went off? And if I put Clay Thompson on the Brooklyn Nets next year,

does he just average 35 points and 30 points a game? Maybe, maybe, right? And I want, you know, right, because we did it with Hardin and Hardin obviously delivered for the Rockets. He was more, he was capable of a lot more than just being the third wheel for somebody. That being said, what do you think on Genobley? Do you think if he would have left somewhere he's like maybe instead of two all-star teams, he makes eight all-star teams and maybe instead of averaging 30 minutes, he averages 35 minutes

and he averages 25 points, you know, on average. I don't know. What do you think? It's a fun alternate universe to imagine, Chris. Like when you do bring it up, I'm like, just look, I have his stats open on the screen and I'm like, man, like, look at those prime years. He averaged 19 and a half points per game at 30 years. with the Spurs in 2007-2008 season.

And it's like, you do wonder, like, what would he have been, you know, had he left when he had opportunities in free agency? But at the same time, like, I wouldn't want it any other way for his career. I wouldn't want it any other way for Clay Thompson's career. You know, winning is all that matters. Like, it's all that should matter. It's what should matter more than anything else. And one of the things Bob Myers said, a warrior general manager, Bob Myers said at the

Sloan Sports and Linux conference was like, when they were talking about McCatt and Kevin Durant, he asked Stefan Curry like, hey, like, what do you think about us getting this guy? And Curry's response is like, let's do it. If it makes this better as a team, let's do it. And Bob Myers' point was that, you know, if his response was anything else, it would be, it would mean that, you know, there's something more important to Steph than winning. But the fact that he totally was willing to sacrifice and do what was best for the team and add a guy who arguably might be better than him, he was willing to do it because it meant winning. and it meant sustained winning.

And, you know, those are the, that's what Genobley did throughout his entire career, his willingness to come off the bench, his willingness to take a lesser role, play fewer minutes, and not get that spotlight. It's all, he's going to be rewarded. He will be a basketball Hall of Famer because of everything he's done. And I, and I hope that people look at Genoble as somebody that, like, that is the right mentality to have if you want to play winning basketball. And I think he epitomizes Spurs basketball in that sense where you need to

the sacrifice to win and you do need to be willing to sometimes not necessarily get the spotlight or the glory that other players may seek out. Since everybody is reliving all of the great Genobley moments, I must say, in all of those accomplishments, the rings, the all-star appearances, the all-NBA team appearances, etc. The killing the bat with his hand is an underrated moment in world history. That is like, I don't understand. Like, I got to know what goes on in, like, Argentina, because I remember once upon a time,

so Chris Wallace got the job as the general manager of the Memphis Grizzlies, and they sucked. And one of the first free agents that he, he immediately, as soon as he got the job, he flew over to Argentina to go meet with Andres Nosioni, right? And he sits down at a table, and Andre's Nosios, they're getting this conversation about life and about everything. And he's trying to recruit him to come play for the Grizzlies. And Andres Nosioni told Wallace that his goal that one of the things he dreams of doing was killing a wild boar with a knife. And I don't know if you've ever seen like a real, like you would look him up, like a real wild boar. Like he is totally unafraid of this and would want to go out wild boar hunting with a knight.

Like these guys, like they're just wired a little different, especially with the animal thing. Like, if I saw a bat, you know, fans, I'd run away. This dude just slapped that. He slapped the shit out of that bat right in his head. I would be panicked. It's NBA where amazing happens, Chris. What is up with Argentina, though? Like, what is it?

What are the living conditions that these guys, like, just slap bats and want to stab wild boars and shit? Like, I don't. These guys are a different breed, man. I think the first thing you said, Chris, is the truest of all. Like, that was one of the greatest moments in, like, human history. Like, forget basketball. It may have happened on a basketball court. But the dude just whips his hand and slaps a bat out of the air.

And if somebody, like, it's listening to this, they have no idea what we're talking about. Just go to YouTube right now and type in Genoblee bat. And it will pop up on the screen and watch Genoblee just swat a bat out of the air. Like, he's blocking James Hardin's shot. It's a remarkable moment, and it's something I think it's funny that out of all the great basketball plays, Genoble has had in his career, that's going to be one of the things people always think about and kind of laugh and smile about. It says everything to you, and it says everything about a guy, and it makes me feel like a lesser man.

Like, if a bat is screaming towards me, like I guess that's the moment. Like, what would your reaction be? and I can safely say my reaction would not be to slap the shit out of it. Like I wish it was. I feel like a lesser man because it's not. But, I mean, it tells you what you need to know about Manu Genoboli. I mean, all right, how many guys, like there's a couple. I don't know.

We should have come up with a list. I wish I would have thought of this earlier. The guys that were confident that if the bat flew at them would hit it. And I don't think the list is like super long. I think Pat Beverly would slap it. I know Tony Allen and Zeebo would slap the shit out of that bat. I don't know.

I don't know. It's weird. The way guys react to animals is different. You know what I mean? Like I'm very confident if a person ran at him they'd hit him. But, you know, even the toughest guys when an animal comes at you. And by the way, what the fuck was a bat doing in the arena anyway? Like, how did that?

Do you have a ticket? How did he get in? I don't know. It really does say everything about Genoli when you mention it. Like personality-wise, his willingness to like step in front of, I guess, a foreign object, something that others may fear. He's willing to get to put himself in the harm's way and take down this destructive force. It really does, you know, exemplify who he is as a person and everything he's done on the court as a basketball.

which I think in a weird way, like symbolically does just, it captures who he is, man. Like that singular moment for him as a person, as a human being captures who he is as a person on the court and how much personality really does translate and matters in the game of basketball. All right. We got to take a quick break. When we come back, we got to talk about this Boston and Cleveland series and Kevin O'Connor's article about the Celtics building for 2018 or 2025. Today's Ringer NBA show brought to you by Sacks underwear. Guys, your underwear has to work.

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Miller Light is brewed not only to taste great, but also be less filling. It has 96 calories, only 96 calories, so it's not going to fill you up. It's brewed to be enjoyed from Tip until the final buzzer. It's the original light beer and has been since they first showed up courtside in 1975. All right, Kevin. So the Celtics won that improbable game three on Cleveland's home court the other night on the Avery Bradley shot that took an hour to drop into the basket. do you think that that was just the calves screwing around in that game?

They got up 21. It was a bad LeBron night. Marcus Smart at 7-3s. The Celtics almost hit 23s in the game. But that that was just the Cleveland didn't take it seriously enough. And now they'll write the ship and blast the Celtics out of this series. Or do you think the Celtics were on to something? And I'm not saying can win the series.

but could win another game or make it competitive. So I think it's two things, Chris. One, you know, you mentioned how like the uncertainty with the Warriors Spurs series if Kauai Leonard had gotten hurt. Isaiah Thomas played those first two games, but he was obviously like, you know, not himself. And we know now he did have the hip injury and maybe game one goes differently. Maybe game two, they don't fall down by like 800 points.

Maybe instead it's just 80. I don't know. I don't know if they would have won those two games, just like I don't know if the spurs wouldn't have gotten swept by if they had kawai but I do think like it's a shame that we wouldn't have seen the Celtics at full strength. On the other hand, um, I do think the cavaliers were just kind of toying around in game three. LeBron James like watching him is just, it looked like he didn't have it, but it also kind of looked like he's just like, hey, everybody else take care of this tonight.

I get a night off like I need, I might need to rely on you guys at some point during the postseason. and this is your night to take care of this game, and the team didn't. Like, it just looked that way to me. And, like, then some of the lineups that they were using, it seemed like there was a little bit of experimentation, maybe, in preparation for the next series against the Warriors. I don't know.

It was just a weird game, man. Like, I still am, like, amazed that the Celtics won that. Just, you know, with the adversity they faced after Isaiah Thomas, you know, was out. Like, like, literally everybody saying, like, this series is over. It's going to be a sweep. Like, it's just weird. It's the greatest upset in playoff history.

They were down by 20 plus points in the game, and the Cavaliers were favored by 17. 17. Just a weird game, Chris. What do you think? I did not think they were going to win that game until the Bradley shot went through the net. Yeah. I'm serious. That roomed out.

I still would have thought they were going to lose an overtime. Right? And in fact, I even looked at the clock. I was like making sure there wasn't enough time for three on to shoot it. I'm like, because there's just no way they're winning. this game. And then of course, I went and I, Bradley shot it and I went and took a piss and came back and the ball still hadn't dropped through. And that shot, that was so, I can't remember something taking that long to happen from the shot. I mean, that bounced around the rim 20 times.

And then finally dropped in. I was like, holy crap, they did it. They really won that game. And, you know, I thought it showed a lot of heart. It showed a lot of heart that I didn't, I question if they had it. After that game, too, was despicable. I mean, absolutely despicable. And they just showed no heart in that game. And so to flip around and to flip the switch like they did, I was really impressed with them, you know. And I do view those guys differently.

And I think, I think it's fair to, right, after what I just watched. But I mean, I also think I have no idea what was going on with LeBron. Come on. Like he was not, not only was he not the best player on the court. He wasn't even one of the top 10 best players on the court that night. It was weird. Offensively, defensively, Crowder was like stripping the ball from him, out rebounding him. It was just bizarre.

It was weird. I mean, I just, I mean, they might have lost by like 800 points in game too, but the team still has heart. I mean, they just got totally just smoked that game. You can't score 29. No, 29 is just, that's not, come on. That's absurd. But that's like saying does LeBron have a, that's like saying, does LeBron have a, you know, a killer instinct because he took it off? It's like, of course he has a killer instinct.

Of course, the Celtics have heart as a team, even though they just got totally pummeled in game two. I think, I think this team has proven this enough over the course of the season. And I think that's what showed in game three is that this team does have fight and they do have grit. And that's one of the qualities that makes them a 53 win team in the first places. A, they have one of the best head coaches in basketball who, by the way, should have gotten more consideration for coach of the year. I don't think he should have won. But the fact that he didn't get any press at all was very surprising to me. And B, the fact that the players on that team, a lot of them are just, they're just good.

And, like, there's not a lot of great talent on the Celtics roster. And but together, I think, with the mentality a lot of those guys have, it touches back on Genobly. I'm not saying they have any Genobley's, but what helped make Genobley was his personality and his and just who he was as a person. And so for the Celtics team, they do have some of those really gritty dudes on their teams, like those really hard-ass guys who constantly play hard. The aviary rallies of the world and the defensive end, Isaiah Thomas is like that. I think Marcus Smart, absolutely. Terry Rozier, Jay Crowder has that mentality. Al Horford, you know, for all his porous rebounding, I think that dude is a really good player and tends to do the right thing on the offensive end of the floor.

They have a lot of guys like that. So I think the team has heart despite getting totally pummeled in game two and it showed in game three. For sure. And the other thing is they were getting pummeled in game three. Let's be honest. I mean, Kevin Love was just. Kevin Love was just bombing on them. And as I was watching that game, I know you put up that picture about the transformation,

physical transformation that Kevin Love is made. And immediately what I thought of was, and this is crazy, the best draft workout I ever saw. Back in the day, we used to be able to go watch draft workouts because the team was so crappy and they just wanted any kind of attention, right? And so one of the benefits I had was I would get to go to these draft workouts. The best draft workout I ever saw my life by far was Kevin Love. And this is crazy because he looked the way in the picture that you put up on Twitter. And Kevin, they made him shoot one of the drills they did was they made him shoot 25 NBA three-pointers.

And he was not a, he was not clearly known as a shooter in Ben Howland's offense at UCLA. So he had to shoot 25 NBA threes, five from each spot on the court, right? So you got the baselines and then you got the two-wing spots. than the top of the key. He hit 20 of them. 20 of them. Then they run this drill and they have him go back up. The other guys of the workout are D'Andre Jordan, Javall McGee, and Joey Dorsey.

And what you have to do is you get the ball around the free throw line extended, or I'm sorry, at the block. And they throw it into you at the block, back to the basket. And you've got to make a move on the guy and try to score. and once you don't score, then you go get in the line. And whoever got the stop, he gets to, right? So it's just this revolving. I swear he scored on these guys like 25 straight times.

Every different move you've ever seen, step back, shooting. I mean, he looked like damn Kevin McHale out there. And so the other night when I'm thinking about when I'm watching him and bomb and threes, I will tell you from the second, even when he was chubby, from the second. He walked into the NBA. He was an awesome shooter. Awesome. And now you see it like in full fruition.

I mean, he was shooting with guys right in his face the other night. And it looked like Cleveland was just going to run off on him. And he was going to have 45 points. And I mean, if it weren't for the bad LeBron game, Love has destroyed the Celtics. Like, he is a legit Celtics killer. What did they say? He's average like 25 and 13 or some crap. He killed them.

you know on that photo chris you know there was a couple of responses like you know someone mentioned like kevin love was a really good player in high school too it's you know it's not like yeah he came from you know he's a crappy player and became a great player to become the player he is saying it's like well yeah he he always was like you know a top top high school recruit and a really good player in college and early in his career too that's why he was a top pick in the draft but the thing is is like it doesn't mean that you know he can't be praised for his accomplishments and and you know he lost so much weight to extend his range to really get in much better condition. Then he improved his conditioning after that. And then he sculpted his frame to make himself a better defensive player.

And, you know, he's really done everything he can in every step to evolve with the league. And I mean, he's still, you know, in some ways, he still might be more of a liability against the team like the Warriors. I don't know. But he's done everything that he can to keep himself an optimal shape and to allow himself to evolve with the NBA. And I think that deserves credit. I mean, he might have been a top player and like someone else said like it's an NBA player's job to stay in shape. And it's like it's like praising a history teacher for reading a book.

And my response to him was like, no. It's like crediting a history teacher for writing a whole series of books. Kevin Love has done everything that you would want for him to maximize his really basketball potential. He's maximized it. And I think that deserves credit. Supremely skilled player for sure. By the way, the other draft workout that was the best one I saw was Draymond.

What was that? Dremont. Dremont. Dremont. I mean, same thing. What was he like in the workout? Same thing. Was he just going absolutely hard, going crazy?

Like, just every drill. Like, it was like his last drill. Yes. And he, yes. And, you know, you're doing so much skill work. And I'm looking at this guy. He could dribble. He could pass.

He could shoot. He was draining threes. He was draining college threes, NBA threes. And what's interesting is I thought the guy that he was going up against in the workout was really good too. And this was a great workout. It was Crowder. Now imagine that. That's two tough dudes.

And they both got drafted in the second round. And I'm like, what in the hell is going on here? Right? Like you could clearly tell both of them. like there was no chance they were going to be crappy none like there was no way they were going to be bad now i never would have thought draymond could become draymond probably but i knew he'd be you know eight-man rotation guy for sure for the next decade same thing with crowder it's going to be in the rotation at worst you've got an awesome energy guy and a guy that can uh but obviously

draymond's become one of the best players in the NBA and this ridiculous defender and you know but to speak of these and that why you can't always make up mind on workouts. The other one is there is a kid name from California. It's 100 years ago now. There's a kid named from California, and he won Pac-12 player of the year. And our West Coast listeners will remember this kid. His name was Jerome Randall, and he never made the NBA. He never, he's like the original Isaiah Thomas.

Tiny, tiny. And he never made the NBA, but I swear to God, the kid hit like 20, three of 25 NBA 3s. And I was just like, what is going on here? And then like stayed afterwards. And he's the kind of guy that was just, you could put him behind a three-point line, and he just would never miss, ever. But he was just too little.

And I guess, you're right, in that day, I think if there's a Jerome Randall now, he probably, you know, he probably gets on a roster. I think Isaiah Thomas has affected that. You just saw the little kid from Oakland. He's on the roster for Cleveland. K. Felder. Yeah. I mean, there's not as much of the... Tyler, you list another one.

There's not, yeah. There's not as much discrimination against being little anymore. You know, but it's just wrong time in life for Jerome Randall, I suppose. And somebody sent me something to me. They'd heard me tell that story years ago on the radio. Somebody sent it sent me something like last year that he was just destroying it overseas somewhere, which is unsurprising. But anyway, back to the Boston and Cleveland. So much of it is timing, like for a lot of these guys when they enter the league or, or, you know, a situation they fall into. Like, I forget if it was this podcast or like just a conversation like with just like

somebody at a game. But like, I talked to somebody recently about Dreamline Green. Like if he were drafted by like a different team, it's very possible that he wouldn't have turned into the player that he is today. Like so much of his success has to do the situation he's fallen into. And the Warriors like turning him into the four or five rather than. than the two, three, like some other teams might have. Like, so much of success, like, isn't because of the player and their own strengths and

weaknesses, it has as much to do with the team that they fall into and the opportunity they're provided. No, he was the, he is the beacon of positionless basketball. He really is. He's the perfect example. Because even if you go back in time, there were still so many old heads that were running teams. And it was, he's too big and slow to play the three.

and he's too short to play the four. So he's just your consummate tweener. And that's what he is. But now we don't, being a tweener now, you're called multipositional. For the first 10 years that I covered the NBA, a tweener was what got you drafted in the second round or maybe undrafted because he just doesn't have a position.

And now, like, being a tweener is a great thing to be. And so that's just evolution of the way battle. basketball played now, right? It's pretty cool. It's really cool how it's changed. Yeah. All right, let me get to that. Let me get to your article about the Celtics and the Cavs. Are the Celtics building for 2018 or 2025? And you kind of list out all of the different scenarios that they've got.

And you talk about Isaiah Thomas Bradley, Marcus Smart. You even mentioned Jay Crowder in there, who's got this great contract right now. But first things first, the idea that they can add Hayward. I talked to Zach Harper the other day at Talk Hoops on Twitter, and he's been in Utah. He has lived there. And I asked him what he thought. And he actually thinks that, and this is just his opinion. He has no insight necessarily.

But he thinks that Hayward is going to go. Because obviously it's not a money decision now. And I asked him, you know, one of the things about pulling guys back in or getting them to stay is do they have, really close teammates that are going to recruit them back, right? Really go hard to recruit them back because they're friends, right? And I've seen this happen many different times. And I asked him who, like, who Hayward's best buddies on the team were. And he told, he said it was Hill and Inglis, who happened to both free agents.

So like none of them might come back, right? Like, you kind of need somebody to go and, like, work you over, right? you can't leave us, man, we're friends, blah, blah, right? Like, it's, I've seen it work, obviously, with Tony Allen and Zach Randolph and Marcus Hall and Mike Conley. Like, when they're under contract, they go and they recruit the other guys to stay with them. Well, it doesn't sound like they're going to have that in Utah with Hayward.

So let's get to that one first. We both read that that's a real possibility for Boston to go hard after him. Do you think that Boston should? Should that be the guy when they're finally going to, I don't want to say, trade-in chips, but at least one of the chips is this free agent money that they have, that that's what they should use it for. Yeah, 100%. They're going to get them for free. I mean, it's using cap space. It's like a no-brainer decision where, you know, if Hayward is like, yeah, I'm ready to sign on the

dotted line, it's like you're doing everything in your power to move that one piece that you need to move to open up the cap space. And they would have to move one guy. It's unclear how much cap space that they would have to open up. up to get the full max, which is approximately 30.3 million this coming season. Maybe it would have to be Marcus Smart. Maybe it would have to be Jay Crowder. I think Crowder's the guy I would move if I were the Celtics. I think Crowder A would get the largest return because he still has multiple years left on his cheap contract. So another team may see significant appeal on him, whereas with Bradley or smart, they're free agents in 2018. So I'm not quite sure what kind of return that they

would get. So, I mean, if I'm the Celtics, you could, you could essentially be flipping Crowder to open up cap space and get something quality back and sign Gordon Hayward too. I mean, it's, it's remarkable that that's what could happen for them this summer if Hayward is willing to leave, which I agree with Zach Harper that there's absolutely a chance that he will, not only because the money, but just because the situation factor. Boston has a lot to offer. Okay. Let me ask you this. When you, let's say, let's say Danny Age comes to you and he says, Kevin, I have seen you on your work on television in the Boston area. I have read your articles for the ringer and your basketball acumen is just unbelievable.

Oh, that means a lot, Danny. To the point that I want your opinion on this. All right, here's our roster. And we're not going to talk about the bottom half of the roster. I'm telling you we've got to figure out. out what we're doing with Isaiah, Bradley, smart, Crowder. We can't keep all these guys.

Who should we keep, Kevin? Who should we make sure we don't lose? I would say, Danny, you got a really hard choice coming up. I think there's big decisions to make. I think the first thing, you know, you would need to look at is, what are you doing this year in the draft and what opportunities are available? Because Markell Fultz is the guy at number one, right? but, you know, the idea I've kind of proposed in, like, some other articles, I think I might have in that Celtics article we're discussing, but it might have been another one. It might have been last week's draft recap article I did, but I mentioned like the idea of trading down. If I'm the Celtics at the one spot or if I'm the Sixers at the three spot, I'm looking to trade down or if I'm the Sixers at the three spot, I'm considering trading up. I have a hell of a lot of assets in the coming years where, you know, I might be willing to put some of those on the table to move up and get more Kel Fultz. Like if I'm if I'm the Sixers,

I'm coming at the Celtics and saying, okay, we'll give you three and we'll give you the 2018 Lakers pick for one. And if I'm the Celtics, you're going to ask for more than that because you're negotiating. But that's where I'd start if I'm the six or showing.

Here's a deal, Kevin, and I'll play Danny Aange. Kevin, stop worrying about the draft. We're just taking a player in the draft because we want somebody on a low contract for the next eight years. And we're taking our, we're using the draft pick. Okay, we're just talking about these guys. Here's the pot of money.

we have. They're all going to be coming up for contracts. Who do I keep and who do I kick off the cliff? Kicking him off the cliff, man. So I think you're going to take a long, hard look at Isaiah Thomas and if you're really going to give him that five-year max contract, because after the hip injury, that's scary for a guy like him that relies so much on burst. I think Isaiah is such a key part of the team and the fabric that you built. But at the same time, I, I, I, you know, I, I'd have a, I'd have significant concerns paying him that. On the other hand, I feel the same exact way looking at Avery Browley. I don't know what kind of money Avery Browley will get next summer in 2018,

but I think he's going to get paid a ton. And I'm not sure, like, if you get Hayward this summer, I don't know if, I don't know if Bradley is going to be worth that bank for the buck that you're going to get. I think Marcus Smart is like, I look at him and he's a guy I'd want to keep. I think, I think Marcus is a winning player. I mean, we talked about, again, like to relay this back to Genoble. I think Marcus Smart has a lot of those same quality.

like on the defensive end of the floor and I think he's a much better playmaker than he gets credit for. So Marcus is someone I'd want to hang on to. I think the real question comes down to, you know, in my eyes, like Thomas or Bradley, or it could be the type of thing where you do retain those guys and then you have to move on again at some point in the future after you retain them. It's a hard choice to make. No, you're right. Thomas. That's a variable that's really hard for us to think about like with the hip injury and potential surgery.

You're, hey, listen, you are right about Bradley. He's going to get over $20 million, Kevin. Ken Baysmore's getting paid over $20 million, and you'd rather have Avery Bradley. I mean, that's the going rate, man. It's hard to talk about, Chris. I think it would be an easier conversation, like Isaiah and Thomas were totally healthy right now. But the fact is that he had like a pretty serious hip injury that might require surgery. And it's super possible that, you know, he comes back next season, same old guy.

Like averages, you know, has again one of the most efficient high volume scoring seasons of all time. Like, let's not forget the year he had. One of the most efficient high volume seasons ever in NBA history. So, like, if that guy comes back and he's the same dude, it's hard to, it's really hard to look at that and say, hey, you know what? We're better off with Avery Bradley, the three and D guard on our roster. Like, I just, it's hard. It's a tough decision. You know, on the other hand, the other wrinkle is this.

It's like, I brought this up in the article is like, what? What makes Isaiah's minus defense okay is because he's such a superhero on the offensive end of the floor. But, you know, if you're bringing in Markell Fultz and you expect him to become the guy, if you're bringing in Gordon Hayward, he's going to be handling the ball a hell of a lot more. Suddenly, Isaiah Thomas isn't going to have the same usage on the offensive end. Does, at that point, his defense become a little bit too much of a weakness to pay him that amount of money when you're not paying him as much for the high usage offensive role? I don't know. I don't know what the team's going to look like. And, like, that's just the hard question, you know, to think about.

And but I do think if you bring in Hayward, if you sign Hayward this summer, and if you do draft Markle Fultz, you got to take a long look, you know, at what direction you want to go. And I think a big part of it has to do with the amount of money because five years for Isaiah at the max, I'm not sure I'd want to do that. And if Isaiah Thomas gets back again to, like we said earlier with Stefan Curry, if maybe Isaiah is willing to take like a three-year deal four years instead, then I think I'm a lot more willing to hang on tight and, you know, paying money months over that duration. It's the long, it's the years on the deal that I'm more worried about than I think the money,

Chris. There is no way that he's going to take less than what his market value is. This is his chance. This is the backup. If he wants to compete for titles, though, man, like, like there's only going to be so many teams that can pay him, like a max contract, like the cap flattens out and there's not going to be as many teams that like can just splurge. So like he might be able to go to like the some loser organization and get paid that

if he wants to or he can stay here and, you know, take 20 million instead of the full max and be on a championship level roster. I mean, that'll be the big question. Now this is his chance to cash in. End of story. This is his chance. You only get one shot at this. And you can do all the whole, yeah, well, he can win here and what he shouldn't have to

take less money. after what after what he just did for them you're gonna you're gonna go fucking pay gordon heyward 30 million dollars and then turn to him and say hey but you take less no man no i ain't trying to hear that i know i ain't trying to i agree chris i agree that's what he's heard this on his entire career his entire life is like there's always somebody you know there's always somebody like that we're looking for or value more than you like that's that's that's what's really i think really been the juice for him for so many years like that's just totally i think and like his His his mentality is that, like, if you watch YouTube videos of him, it's stay paranoid.

Like, he said, like, even if, like, you're on the top spot, there's always someone coming for you. And, like, he felt that in Sacramento when they signed Darren Collison, because they wanted a more traditional point guard. He felt that in Phoenix when they just traded him, you know, six months into the season at the trade deadline. And in Boston, like, we're talking about it right now. Like, it's crazy that after the year he had, this is the conversation, like, at a now. national level, like right here, but like at a local level in Boston, like, it's crazy. Like the morning after the Celtics won that game, like you read the stuff, people are like, or the Celtics better without Isaiah Thomas.

It's like, no, of course they're not better without Isaiah Thomas. Obviously, you know, there's so much more nuance that needs to happen with the conversation. And like, that's where I come back to like the money. You're right. He deserves to be rewarded for everything that he's done. You can't. Here's what I know, Kevin. You cannot pay Gordon Hayward the max and then turn around.

round and not give Isaiah Thomas what he has earned. It will not work. And you're just going to- And you're going to piss off. I'll tell you what, Chris. For four years, $80 million, $20 million flat per season. Like, that's pretty remarkable for the 60th pick in the draft. I know, you know, you probably want that five-year max if you're Isaiah Thomas, the full max.

But if you're in a championship roster and like that's the way that the team can, I think, really hang on to you at that price point. Like, if I'm Isaiah, like, I'm kind of okay with it, even though, like, I should still feel cited, but if I was Isaiah, it's going to be fascinating. This is a difference between us. If I was Isaiah, I tell you to go to hell. I just average 29 points of game, themes in the Easter. And then Benko signed with, like, the 25th best team in basketball for the most money

and be miserable. Like, I just, I just don't know, like, if it's all about mentality and, like, what you prioritized. It's the same thing like I said earlier was Seth Curry. Curry was okay with bringing Kevin Durant and taking on less of a role because he knew it meant like having a better basketball team. But he ain't going to take a dime less than what he's owed than what he needs to get paid. I mean, we'll see when these next few years. Like, you know, there's going to be somebody on that Warriors roster who's going to have to take less money because even with the all NBA team of the designated player, a veteran player extension,

a team can only give out two of those. So we'll see where those go and who gets them and if anybody has to take less than the max because somebody's going to have to take a little bit less for them to retain some other guys. So like sacrifices are going to need to be made, financial sacrifices. What's interesting is guys do that across sports. We saw Tim Duncan do it, Dirk Novitsky do it,

Tom Brady does it in football. We've seen guys make sacrifice financially. And Isaiah hasn't had that big payday yet in his career. That's the difference. He hasn't had that. I'll say this. If they go after Hayward, that's a win now move 100%, right? Because you're catching the guy right in his prime.

It's a win now. It's absolutely a win now. I mean, I think the big question is like with their draft picks. If they hang on to those, they're still thinking about now and later. Oh, for sure. And maybe they can. Maybe they can simultaneously do both and just be really good slash possibly awesome for the next 10 years. right that's the goal of any organization that's the goal I mean they they like there's

it's like we talked about with blowing it up there's there's some teams that they're okay with just making the playoffs every year and hanging division banners there are other teams that are angling to win multiple championships and I think I think you look across the league it's pretty clear sometimes which team falls into which bucket he is Kevin O'Connor go check out the articles at the ringer.com Kevin have a great week I'll catch up with you soon you too man hopefully the finals will be a lot more exciting than the conference finals. I hope so too.

See you, bud. Thanks for listening to another Ringer NBA show. If you did what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes. Hey, Vio, by the way, if you're still listening, please go do that. Give us a rating and review on iTunes. We got like over 150,000 listeners a week, and the five jerks that don't like the show are the ones that go type something in on iTunes. So do us a favor and go give us a good review on iTunes if you like the podcast.

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