The Ringer NBA Show - Way-Too-Early MVP Discussions With Michael Pina | Weekends With Wos

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

Wos sits down with The Ringer's Michael Pina to discuss first looks at potential MVPs, featuring Luka Dončić (3:36), Giannis Antetokounmpo (11:35), Stephen Curry (17:43), Jason Tatum (26:25), and more. Check out Michael’s latest writeup on LeBron on TheRinger.com - https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/11/8/23447175/lebron-james-lakers-father-time Host: Wosny Lambre Guest: Michael Pina Producer: Jade Whaley Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Concert, Kevin! Wait a minute, you're not Chris Vernon. No, Kevin, sadly, I'm not as cherubic or as raspy as Verno, but it is I, Jay Kyle, man. And folks, basketball has been and continues to be so very good. That's exactly why Kyle and I are hosting a brand new basketball show on a brand new podcast feed, the ringers NBA draft show. We're going to have you covered every week as we go in-depth and deep dive in hopes of answering an ever-important question in the NBA. Who's got next?

Whether it's an international phenom like Victor Winbenyama or the G-League Scoot Henderson. Or stars from Overtime Elite like A. Men Thompson, as well as a full-blown swarm of talented prospects from the promising 2023 NBA draft class. For sure, Kyle. And we're also going to get into players from the college ranks because this is a loaded class. for us to discuss prospects rising and falling, and we're going to revisit and redraft recent draft classes and get into how the league's evolution could help inform what's valuable in a prospect of the future.

This is a podcast for a fan of every team, whether you're losing and have high draft lottery odds or you're looking for sleepers later in the draft. We're going to be covering everything in the months to come, so please make sure you follow and subscribe to the Ringer NBA Draft Show. And hit us with those five-star ratings. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the latest edition of Weekends. I'm your host, Big Waz, and I'm joined, man.

Very, very dope guests today, man. This is exciting because I've been knowing this brother on the internet for shoot, man. I want to say like seven years now or something like that. Always had great correspondence with him, been a big fan of his work from Vice to Sports Illustrated to all over the place. man, I've been tracking this dude's career. So it's dope that he's now a part of the Ringer team. Michael the pod peanut was popping, man. What an intro.

Big Waz. It's been at least seven years, I would say. Maybe more. Maybe even more than that, for sure. Obviously, super excited that you're now part of the now. We can call it an extended Ringer family. It's a lot of us on the shit, man, especially on the NBA side. So really excited to talk to you today, bro.

Absolutely. I can't wait to get into whatever it is we're going to talk about. So, listen, man, I think transparency and candor is a theme of this show, or at least I like to tell myself that it is. I talked so much shit to our colleague, Justin Varyer, for suggesting that we have an MVP discussion on group chat this week. I was like, bro, like, there's a new rule. No MVP discussion until we've had snow in our first NFL game. Like, seriously.

It's still summertime in the NFL. However, I'm like, man, what do we want to talk about on the pod today? Like, we've talked about all the exciting teams, you know, the surprising teams on group chat and everybody's on that. Obviously, there's the myriad of controversies that I think we've covered pretty well on group chat and a cross ringer NBA just generally. So I was like, man, I guess I do got to talk about some of these dominant early season performances, man. And, you know, I'd like to open the floor to you to somebody you wanted to start the show with as far as MVP's campaigns are concerned. Okay. So I put together a little bit of a list here because I was fibbing earlier.

I know that you told me what we were going to be discussing today. So I did my homework, my preparation. Do you want me to just jump off the top with who I think is the MVP right now? Yes. I want to hear who you think it is. I think it's Luca, like easily. easily. And we're recording this a day after he had his worst game of the season against the Orlando Magic, which isn't great timing. Sure. But his numbers will melt your face off. It's like 34 points,

eight boards, eight assists, plus 60% true shooting. His post-up game, he's probably the best post-up player in basketball right now. I mean, I would say yo kids still, but go ahead. Sure. Okay, sure. I'll allow that. The way Luca posts up, though, is so just like, He posts people up starting at the three-point line. It's ridiculous. Yeah, so much of their offense is him just picking who he wants to post up against and then obliterating them. So, yeah, he's incredible.

They're very efficient. And then the pick and roll playmaking is just, it's breathtaking. It's genius. I mean, you surround him with, he doesn't even need, he needs three shooters and a role man, and he's just, he'll dice you up. It doesn't even matter who else is on the floor. So I think he's clearly the MVP so far, even though Dallas is not as good as some of the other teams with respective candidates on them that we'll eventually discuss. But, like,

Lucas' start is just statistically so historically great that I feel like he's in his own category right now. Yeah, I think he's got almost a 35 P.E.R. Which, even if you don't like P.E.R, you understand that in order to amass a 35 PERR, you have to be Wilts Chamber, Michael Jordan, LeBron James in his prime. Like, we're talking about the five, three, four, five best players we've ever seen putting up stuff even approaching that. So there's that. Of course, Dallas, you know, they lose their second best player in Jalen Brunson. And they've, you know, they've gotten off to a pretty decent start.

However, because I knew you were going to do this, I wanted to come with a little bit of concerned trolley information, just to spice things up a little bit, Mike, because I think the argument for Lucas MVP candidate is rock solid, right? This campaign right now, this is like going out and, you know, winning the New Hampshire primary or something, right? Like, he's essentially done that already. However, and shout to my man, South Park now at the athletic. I just read his, you know, his little analytics roundup that he recently did.

And it said in there, I thought something interesting. The Mavs are second inefficiency in the NBA. They have the second best offense in the NBA. That figure jumped to 11th when you account for the second half, which means what? Luca is spamming himself right now, right? Like the rate that this guy is using possessions is so ridiculous. And it's working. It's early in the season.

But for one, a guy who we know conditioning has been an issue in the past. And just the overall saliency of spamming this kind of offense. I don't know how you maintain this kind of thing. And I don't know how I should be looking at it MVP-wise when I want to, you know, I'm somebody that wants to get better with time. I was that person that was like, yo, Westbrook deserves the MVP. Luca's case is better than that of Westbrook in 2017.

But what I'm saying is that my thing was like, look, you can say whatever you want about the numbers and the stats, but like he went out and did it. Right? Like, you can do all of your contacts and all of that shit, but like he went out and did it. I feel like there's a little bit of that to what's happening with Luca.

I'll give you another stat. that I'm cribbing from Seth's article. Luca, that 60 true shooting that you mentioned, that incredible efficiency that you mentioned in the first three quarters, yes, that's true in the fourth, dips down to 50. Now, why is that? Because he's doing something that feels unnatural to me. It's like you shouldn't be this integral to every single possession of your team.

It doesn't feel sustainable. And I don't want to call it gimmicky, but I just don't think it's good offense. Not that he's doing the, he's putting the stats up. I just think holistically, is this the right thing to be doing? So you have more of an aesthetic issue with his...

No, I think one, it doesn't work in the playoffs. I think that's proven. Like, you can't do this sustainably against the best defenses who are planning for you and against you with the best, you know, personnel in the world. Like, you can't do this offense and win. that's a one and two i just i really do wonder how sustainable it is over the course of a season so i think that's a good point and that is why he's my MVP for the first month of the season and not who i'm

predicting to win MVP this year no that's that's all great arguments that you pose losing brunson i think that's really going to hurt them as the season goes on spencer dinwidis played pretty well but i am a little bit of a Spencer skeptic, particularly outside shot, the pull-up threes. Don't know if that's sustainable for him. Like, in terms of upside, I actually like Christian Wood has gotten off to a somewhat slow start, even though he's got some efficient offensive numbers. He can't play. Like, Jason Kidd has no trust in him on the defensive end. So he's just like not closing games. He's averaging like 20 in the low 20s in minutes, which is definitely an issue. So I feel like if Christian Wood can kind of earn the trust of the coaching staff, play a little bit better.

defense. That's just such a weapon for Luca. You watch when they run pick and roll. They look incredible together. Chemistry wise. They look incredible. They just, you have no option but to switch and if you switch Luca's on a big which is death and Christian Wood is on a wing and that's also death. So I really like that

for them going forward but yeah you make a great point about Lucas conditioning although I do think he looks he looks way better than he has in the past. There's no doubt about that. He's trying on defense. He's averaging two steals a game. The effort is there. bro, Devin Booker and Chris Paul laughing at him in that press conference in the playoffs after he got embarrassed and pants in the fourth, I do really think was a turning point

because he started taking pride in his defense the rest of that series. I 100% agree with you. So I, you know, is he wearing down already late in games? I don't know. I feel like the heliocentric offense where it's just a one-man show. I'm a little more bullish on that, I think, than you, especially. in the postseason. I mean, you need your teammates to do things, especially when you're resting.

That's absolutely key. And I think that when he comes off the floor in the postseason and nobody kind of knows what to do, that's when things really can go off the rails for Dallas. But there's just no option, like no defensive game plan to stop this guy. I don't care if it's game seven of the finals. I don't care who they're going up against. Nobody can guard him. You know, it was really telling in the game against Brooklyn or this year.

I know Ben Simmons doesn't look like Ben Simmons, but the Ben Simmons, who was the runner-up for defensive player of the year, guarded Luca better than any player has in Lucas' career. That version of Ben Simmons, yeah. Yeah, but the way Luca was just like, I want to go at Ben Simmons. Come here. And it's just like 38% of his shots are at the rim now. He doesn't even, he's not settling for the floaters, those little push shots.

He's just getting to the basket. So this is a different Luca, in my opinion. And the pull-up three is he leads. the league and pull up three point attempts per game. He's only making 28.6% of them. If that number goes up, I don't even know what we're doing here. I don't even know. If he gets that to 33, 34 somehow, then this is, you know,

this becomes a tough, a tough argument or even discussion to even entertain at that point. But we're not there. And so I wanted to get to the person who's my MVP so far this season. And he's who I picked, to be frank, who I picked before this season. I'm probably going to end up picking when this season is done. And that's Yonis Santa de Kumpo. To me, I'm at the LeBron stage with this guy. Peak LeBron, not, you know, year 18, wash king LeBron.

The guy is the best player in the NBA. He's inevitable. The motor is ridiculous. And we talked about Luca like being respectable on defense now. No, Janus is defensive player at a year level on defense. Okay. And to be honest, his raw numbers, they're not quite as gaudy as Lucas, but did not far off as far as offensive production is concerned. He's scoring officially.

Oh, it's 30, 12 and 5. It's ridiculous. He's getting to the line at a career high, 12.3 free throws a game. Like, this guy is just, he's incredible. No Middleton. They ran out the gates. I just think, Yonis, man, what he does on both ends of the floor, Not just, oh, he's a great defender.

He's scheme versatile. You want to put me at center? Yeah, I could do that. You want to put me next to Brooke? Yeah, I could do that. You want to switch me out onto wings? Yeah, I could do that. You want to switch me out onto point guards?

Yeah, I could do that. Help defense. What do you want from me? Rim protection? Like, I can do everything that you want on the defensive end. And he's just freaking dominant on offense. Again, like it doesn't look as cute as Luke. I know, I get it.

The stepbacks, the fans. fancy passing, which by the way, Janice has gotten way better at. This playmaking is incredible, up to 5.3 assist the game, you know. And again, that's without the second best player on the team, right? I'm just blown away by this guy.

Not just his greatness, but it's his want to. It's his relentlessness, his energy, his leadership. I'm just, bro, this is my MVP. You know, like, he's my MVP. So, the first. one thing about Janus right now that I want to, first of all, I had him second on my list here.

So I'm not, I agree with everything you're saying. He's amazing. He's the best two-way player in the league, not even close, defensive player of year candidate, Milwaukee's defense, good luck scoring on them. It's a joke. It's hard. The one thing I'll say is so far this season, it's very early and, you know, on-off numbers are wonky. But Milwaukee's offense with Janus on the floor, and I know Middleton hasn't been there, it's not great. Not a great. Not a great offense. And it's better when he's off the floor. I don't think that he's a deterrent to their success. I'm not saying that at all. But what's more concerning to me is that they're 17th in offensive rating. And I just, I don't even know how to like articulate this about

Janus without it sounding like I'm a hater. But like, I just don't think he's, he's improved definitely different aspects of his game, finishing around the basket, the passing the vision, and all that stuff. He's become a screener where just a devastating effect, and that's just helped unlock so many things from Milwaukee as a team. But I'm just like, why is the free throw shooting still 65%. Why hasn't, you know, there was a lot of talk last year about,

oh, he's got the mid-range game now. He's got the, he's got a little bit of the baseline turnaround. Like, and he just, he doesn't, he does not have those in the bag. And I think that I'm not blaming him at all for, Milwaukee losing in the playoffs last year. They did not have Chris Middleton, who would have been huge in that series against Boston. But the one thing is like, we honestly had was able to do a little bit more and had more options in offensive versatility in his game where he could pull up from the elbow reliably instead of barrel into Grant Williams and Al Horford.

And sometimes it wouldn't go in and then the Celtics would just run the other way and get a good look. I think they might win that series. And so I know that this is like a harsh criticism because he's amazing and I want him to, he's like 99% and I want him to be 100%. But I'm just throwing that out there right now. And that's the one reason why I'm putting Luca ahead of Janus, as amazing as Janus has been. I mean, I'm enjoying this because, you know, my cold water was unnecessary on Luca. And I feel the same way about this cold water on Janus. And, you know, honestly, I think big picture, I think that's why Middleton is such an important

Batman because he's the person that can score in those quadrants. when the defense is loading up on Janus, right? Like, he's the person that can get to a mid-range shot and hit it efficiently. And, you know, Janice's gravity can create the space necessary, even when Middleton isn't necessarily doing it on his own. So I hear all of that. It's just for me, man, you know, I watch enough for this damn league and superstars and some of the best players.

It's just I'm rarely seeing people put it together on a night-to-night basis. on the just straight-up effort side of the ledger that Janus is. And what that has to mean for the people around him, where it's like, no, every game is serious. Every single game has meaning, and we're going to treat it as such. Like, as a fan of somebody who's just sitting on my couch and thumbing through league pass,

and it's just like, I can reliably know that this guy is going to, even when he's not at his most excellence, he's given a damn, and he is transferring that give a damnness to the people around him, I just love that about the guy. You know, I know that's intangible and you can't put that on a spreadsheet, but it's just a feeling that I get when I'm watching this guy play that, you know, just means a lot to me anyway as a fan of the game,

you know, to get all corny and and esoteric. No, I mean, you said game to game, it's play to play. It's minute to minute. Like, Coach Bud is like, I have to. take you out of the basketball game because you're going to pass out. You're doing too much. All right. So let me have your number three.

I don't know if this is a surprise. Maybe it is. It's Steph Curry. Not surprised because he's on mine too. Okay. Steph Curry, I don't, like, here's where the word value comes in. He's insane. Here's where the word value comes in, right?

Like, the Golden State Warriors are four and seven. And anyone who watches them knows why. They're four and seven. The bench is horrific. It's the young guys who, you know, I can't even blame Kaminga because he's not really in the rotation. Wiseman has been just a total disaster. Jordan Poole has been disappointing. It's okay to say that even though he's played in some of those lineups.

And, you know, like Steve Kerr's coming out and saying like, you know, Ty Jerome played four years in college and that's why he's in our rotation. That's just like kind of a. That's crazy. That is such a shot at your young. one and done talent of just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we need adults in the room. Sorry, kids. So if you look at the numbers with Steph, who, by the way, is just having an absolutely monstrous season shooting the basketball, like he's on pace to be 50 something, 40 something, 90 something, like 30 plus points, just the, he's averaging, what is he taking, like 13

threes a game. Yeah, some like 13 threes at a 43 efficiency. Yeah. And at this point, it's like the defense is just the number one thing is don't let Steph Curry shoot threes and yet he still pulls up and puts these numbers forth. So I think there's that but for me it's like

when he's off the floor, the net point differential on off is 28.6 points per 100 possessions and it's like that is value right there. I don't know if anyone is even coming close to that right now. So this is almost as much of

indictment of the roster around him as it is his greatness. And Clay Thompson also hasn't really shot the ball great. That's another reason that, and he's not defending on ball as well as I think the Warriors hoped or expected he would at this point in the season. So even though they drop games against the Pistons and the Hornets and I forget who else they, the king, no, they beat the Kings. They dropped another one in a row on that East Coast road trip that was really embarrassing. but Steph's just been amazing and he's the reason that they've won four games, I guess, and that's why I got to put him here. He's just, he's absolutely incredible basketball player still.

Yeah, you really get no argument for me. We brought up the stat on group chat that the Golden State starting lineup is, has a plus 26 net net waiting. That's, I mean, I mean, come on. And when you watch the games, it's just like when Steph's on the floor, everything, he is the son that the offense revolves around. And, you know, no plants could grow. You can't get any water. You can't do nothing. If Steph Curry does not exist.

And so, yeah. And, you know, you mentioned everything. The disappointing starts from both Clay and Jordan Poole. The young guys just being utterly clueless, specifically on the defensive end, has just contributed to a horrible start. But Steph Curry looks as good as he's ever looked, in my opinion. He's stronger than ever. The fact that this guy's shooting 93% from free throw line is just like,

he's getting better at free throw. What the fuck is happening? Like, it's just, it's insane to me what he's doing up there. And, you know, he had his little shooting slump second half of last year. And that's just completely dissipated, man. Like, this guy, again, 43% on 133s a game. It doesn't even make any sense whatsoever. Before we move on, he's shooting 79% at the rim.

I didn't even know that before I just started looking at, look, I was looking at his numbers right now. And you know what that is, right? It's complete panic about what he does from the outside and people have to press him in a certain way where they just have to concede layups. It's just like that two is less than three. That's the calculation of defense is making right now. And so, yeah, Steph Curry is playing at an all-time MVP level. So shouts to him. Next person I wanted to get into, I don't know if you know this, Mike, but I picked the nuggets to win the championship this year.

I just think that that unit on offense is the most unstoppable. unit in the league. I just don't think there's a defense out there that's equipped to deal with the problems they present. And Yokic should start the season, I don't think he's at his best, but he's fucking, he's insane. And it's, you know, people, I know we buried the triple double as a relevant stat, but in the case of Yokic, I think it is relevant. He doesn't dominate possessions.

He's not like dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, oh, like, get out of my way, give me the rebound. Oh, do this, do that. No, it's like, no, I attack the matchups that seem pertinent. Michael Porter, Jr. and Jamal Murray, they were gone last year. I did my, you know, drop 30 on everybody routine for months at a time. And these guys are back. I'm literally trying to incorporate them back into this offense.

And he's done that in the early season going. He's just, you know, he's at his normal efficiency across the board. And, yeah, nine assists a game. From the center position, he's just like nothing I've ever seen. And to me, I got to put him in the MVP discussion because he's so singular, so unstoppable. He's not even trying to score yet. Okay. He literally is just like, yeah, 21 points per game where I'm just like, I don't even care about scoring at this moment.

I got to give it to him. And I know the Canary and the Coal Mide for the Nuggets is that defense. And it has not looked great to start the season. and there have been moments involving Yokic that haven't looked great, and I will cop to that. But I just think the guy's so special, so unique, and I love what he's doing. Yokic to me is, again, I hope this isn't and shouldn't be a controversial statement. He's the best player in the world for me still.

Wow. Yeah. Wow. You're preaching to the choir, everything you're saying about him. His impact at all levels of offense is like something I've never seen before. You have to guard him. And this is a little bit when I talk about the like fingernail difference between Janus and Yokic and why I think Yokic is just a little bit better. Offensively, we're talking about someone who actively elevates everyone around him, no matter what's going on on the court, what the defensive coverage is.

All the attention is on Yokic. And Yokic still manages to make a highlight pass for a layup just about every time down. the court. He's got the three ball and he's not even shooting threes this year, but everyone knows. He's not shooting threes yet, but his jump shot is wet. Everybody knows that. Yeah, he's the touch around the basket, the touch from six, seven, eight feet is every single time he lets it go, I expected to go. Same. You just watched last night against the Pacers. I don't know if you saw that game. I was watching. I watched. He, you know, goes out with foul trouble. The team just like craters, like goes down 18. He comes back, obviously, guides them.

to victory with some help, obviously, from KCP and Aaron Gordon. But, like, you just look at, like, when he's on the floor, they just, they're like a dominant championship contender. And I don't blame you at all for picking them to win the title. I think that I expected them to win over 60 games this year. And part of that was because I thought Jamal Murray would have been a little further along. And he started to look, he started to look a little bit better, but he started slow.

I put him way more of the defensive issues with Denver on Michael Porter, junior shoulders as well and we're sitting trying to see his minisk up. This stuff that just doesn't happen behind the play that you're just like, Jesus Christ, man. Like, we get it. Your guy doesn't have the ball right now, but you still have work to do. You still have to, you still have a job, bro. Like, there's certain shit that just goes on behind the play that just frustrating. But yeah, all that stuff you mentioned, I'm in complete and utter agreement. And just, you know, another person I wanted to bring up, I think Donovan Mitchell has played at an MVP type of level.

He's playing as well as he can. I'm pleasantly surprised. I was really down on him after the Maverick stuff. Like, that shit just bummed me out watching him give that type of effort on defense. But he's upped it, and he deserves recognition for it. He's fitting seamlessly with what Cleveland needed. It helps that he so greatly filled the need.

Like, the need was so glaring. So it's great that he filled that. But the person I want to talk about, because this is your backyard is Jason Tatum. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I think this dude has ascended.

And I got to give it up to Jason Tatum because people were familiar with my opinions about Jason Tatum in the past. I really were. I was annoyed by the anointing of this kid after one season. And everybody's just like, oh, the greatness. I legitimately wasn't seeing it. I thought there was a lot of tunnel vision. The over-reliance on long twos. I was just like, bro, like, I'm not seeing it with this kid.

And then slowly but surely, he turns himself into an all-MBA defender. I'm like, hmm, okay, this guy is an insane perimeter defender. He uses his length. He uses his quickness. Has anticipation. Like, oh, wow, okay. He's going to board you up. Oh, okay.

Then he starts showing me this playmaking stuff, which is sorely needed in Boston because they don't have some, you know, Chris Paul, Mike Conley type. over there. And he's showing off a little playmaking. And then, man, I think it was the playoffs last year where I was just like, bro, he's almost a wing sort of step in that like, if he gets a shot off, I feel like it's going to go in. And I thought, oh, man, his shot making is just, you know, it's even beyond what people were slurping him for. And then this year, man, where he's having 20 free throw line games. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, this is, this is. This is the type of cat that could win an MVP in this league.

And so I did want to touch on him before we got out of here. Because I think he's at the fringe of this conversation very early on. I know it's very early. But, man, he's showing some stuff. I think he's right now a top five player. I think losing the finals was the best thing that could have ever happened to him. He's definitely made a leap. If you've watched his career, you pointed out a lot of the stepping stones that he's taken over the past five seasons.

But right now, even in the first 11 games, he's gone up another level in terms of reading defenses, getting off the ball quicker. He's not arguing with reps anymore on his drives. He's just like, I'm going to put the ball in the basket. And when he does argue, it's after he makes the shot and he wants the N1. It's not, I'm going to mope,

and then our team's going to get beat in transition the other way. It's none of that. He's drawing the fouls too. He's just so strong, so aggressive, so decisive in his decision. decision-making. It's just been super impressive. And I don't know if you were to, I have a question for you. If you were to pick a flaw right now in Jason Tatum's game, what would it be? I don't, I'm not saying he's perfect, but I'm saying it's very difficult right now for me to say, oh, he can't do that. The only thing I would say, and luckily for him, he's not asked to do it,

I don't think you could ask him to do the extreme usage stuff from some of these heliocentric guys. I don't think the playmaking is at the level where that would actually be efficient and that you could spam it. But that's not a real criticism. He plays on a team that is freaking, you know, pretty talented and damn near complete top to bottom. And so he's not asked to do that. In his role as like, you're our team's best score and defenses are going to shift and shade and produce themselves in ways that are designed to stop you from being that. best score, you just have to attack that in those subtle ways. And he's doing it, man. It's obvious what he's doing. And I like that you said some of the stuff is more subtle. We talked about

on group chat, Rudy complaining about, yo, you know, this team needs to do more of the stuff that doesn't get you high fives from your family members after the game. Getting off the ball quicker is one of those things. You know, like nobody at the barbershop or who's in your phone's going to be like, yo, I like the way you're being a ball mover. Nobody's going to text you about that. You know, so like for young guys, it's hard for them to get in their heads that this is actually the things that make them greater.

And so Tatum at the ripe old age of 24 getting to that, I'm happy because, Mike, I'm not going to lie, man. I used to make jokes about, like, people in the media, people in Boston calling this guy a second coming. I used to call him, my nickname for him was John the Baptist. I was like, you're not quite Jesus, brother. You are John the Baptist. But, yo, man, he is looked the part.

part this year. He's like cutting to pass. Like it's it's like really high level stuff from him and he's a screener too. Like when Marcus Martin has the ball and they run that little two man action, it's unstoppable. Like you can't. We talked a little bit earlier about the switching with Wood and Luca. It's very similar with Marcus and Tatum and whether Tatum has the ball or whether he's screening. There's just so much offensive and defensive versatility with him. He has 15 blocks already this season. It's just like what is even happening? Like, they can play small because of his size and have him be at the four or the five with Grant Williams and not lose a step on defense. He's just, he's just like an amazing player.

I can't really say enough about all around how impactful he has been for the Celtics this season. And his pull-up threes aren't even falling yet. So he's averaging 31 a night and the threes aren't even dropping. The catch and shoots are because that's how Boston's playing. Their offense is best in the league. And a lot of his just drive-and-kick, spot-up threes. but when they need Tatum to hit those pull-up threes and he starts doing it late in games,

then it's just, it's kind of curtains there, I think. Yeah, so I don't, I didn't have any other people I wanted to discuss, but I know you wanted to talk about one LeBron James, which we can do the LeBron segment now. And I think a lot of people have questions about what level of player is LeBron these days? It's funny to me, because I think ironically the thing that made lebron lebron and singular is the idea that like a baseline level of

excellence for 75 games like just machine metronome like a baseline level of excellence 75 games a year for 10 years which is just in like basically mvp level 75 games a year for 10 years craziness It's the best career of all time. I'm like, it's not even an eye for debate. It's insanity. He's just not that. I think LeBron can get to the greatness level, you know, at the fringes of MVP discussions in individual games. I don't think he has it in them to produce that consistently.

And, you know, again, the thing that defined LeBron in places like Cleveland, was his ability to put anything on his back, like lineups that it was Andy Varagile and Ben Wallace spacing for you, put that on his back for efficient enough offense and elite defense. You know, he's just the all-world defense is completely gone. And he just can't impose his will on a night-to-night basis, the way he used to. And so, I mean, I think if LeBron was surrounded by enough talent that you can get him to the playoffs,

And in a short series, where it's like I get two to three days rest and all of that shit or a day in between every single game. And I get to dissect your game plan. And I know exactly. And I get to, you know, ground this thing to a halt to 80 possessions in a game. Shit, man. I'll put LeBron with anybody in that setting. But over the course of the regular season, it's over for that, man.

He's 40. He's not 40. But yeah. Yeah, I read about this earlier in the week. All the names that we just mentioned. in this whole pod. If you traded that player for LeBron, those teams would be worse.

That's just a fact. It's just pure facts. I don't know where you would rank him. You can name a few other players, honestly, in the league right now, who I think are more impactful on a night-to-night basis. I'll start just saying positively, like he's still the smartest player alive.

And sometimes when he makes the wrong decision, it's to send a message. Or I should say almost all the time. I have this clip in my article where he's posting up Austin Rivers, I believe it is, and Patrick Beverly kind of scoots around on the perimeter, wide open, completely uncovered, would have been a wide open corner three, strong side. You rarely see that. LeBron just stares at him and then shoots a turnaround over Rivers that doesn't go in and did not pass the ball. And it's just like, why are you bringing defenders here?

So it's just like the post-ups, the efficiency, is atrocious right now, not driving as much as he used to career low and drives per game, per one under possessions, the free throw line, which he addressed after the loss against the Clippers on Wednesday night where he's like, I need to flop more career low, free throw rate, career low, free throw attempts. I don't think he needs to flop. I think he's at an age where, like, the first step isn't there, honestly. It isn't what it used to be. And so you can point it is supporting cast for sure it is a very bad one one of the worst in the league i would say but watching him physically not being able to kind of dictate things as much as he used to is is jarring and noticeable

and yeah all the players we said yannis luka steff tatum yokic i'll throw in jama rant like there's a few other names out there as well who i'm just like these players are just better than lebron right now so that's kind of where he is and he's still amazing and he's still unprecedented and the fact that he's still even on the outer rim of a conversation like this. Yeah. Yeah. It's like incredible. He's still a very effective player.

And, you know, I watch him do stuff every now and again when I'm like, this is really cool. But at the same time, I'm watching a guy on a team that's severely limited. And because I've watched LeBron's, my chart to, like, NBA dorkdom and, like, getting a league pass is, like, 2010, which is, like, the, squarely in the LeBron ascent to like just unquestionably way better than everybody. Trust me, y'all, LeBron from 2009 to 2010 with Anthony Davis would make this team 50 wins. I swear to God, they would win 50 games with that dude because he'd be so inevitable on offensive defense that it just, they would just carry these cats. It'd be crazy the amount of attention.

A LeBron drive would have to get. and, you know, the way, like his transition. Man, remember the highlight packages we used to watch if LeBron just closing out on shooters? Like, he was the best close-out player, like closing out to shooters where he would, you know, he'd get to the nail, and the amount of time he'd take to recover

to the ball handler, passing it out to the corner or to some shooter, was insane the amount of space he covered. Trust me, that dude, 12 years ago, this team is winning 50 games no matter what there's nothing anybody can do about it it's just not the case like it's normal it is what it is I enjoy what he is now but yeah you can't put him in the conversation

with the big dogs no and it's kind of a shame he never won defensive player of the year I just want to note that as you bring up the ridiculousness of his defense but it is not even close to what it was not even in the same stratosphere bro I'll never

forget 2011 the year that they embarrassed him against the Mavericks, that DeRose series, where it's just like, yo, in Crunchtime, just leave me on an island with the MVP, and it's over. He's not doing Diddley squat against me. Nobody could stay in front of Derek Rose back then.

And even some of the, like, the jitterbug guys that could, they weren't strong enough to deal with how strong this dude was. Game after game in that series, man, Crunch Time. LeBron was like, I got this dude by myself. Don't send help. Like, it's crazy, okay? Like, and, you know, and I hate to get on my LeBronso box, but I will. It's just like, people just don't have an appreciation for how great his peak was.

They just don't, they just can't fathom how insanely good this guy was. Great as those heat team were, man. Brough, they were bringing up the rear with some of these people outside of Wade and Bosch. And D. Wade, after 2013, was just not an all-star player. He was a nice starting two guard, you know, and then you just had LeBron, who was just basically the best player not named Michael Jordan ever, you know. And so, yeah, man, he ain't that. He ain't that no more.

It's over for that. LeBron is great. I agree with what Richard Jefferson said on television last night. Signing the extension with the Lakers, the worst decision of his entire career. I agree. Oh, my God. Oh, man, that's so funny. Anyway, man, that's our way too early MVP chatter.

Mike, man, tell the people to find you, man. Hook up with your work. I mean, everything's on The Ringer.com. Check it out, writing there a couple times a week, usually. And, I mean, you know, I'm not even going to plug Twitter because I don't know if Twitter's going to exist by the time this episode publishes. But shout out to the Ringer.com. Shout out to you, Big Waz.

Yes, sir. We'll see you guys next week. Make sure you're checking out all the other Ringer MBA offerings, real ones, and everything else we got on the feed. We'll see you guys next week, of course. We're out of here. Peace.