The Ringer NBA Show - Way-Too-Early MVP Race. Plus, Reaves Island in Full Effect. | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 1, 2025

Logan Murdock and Howard Beck are back with another edition of Real Ones and jump right into the way-too-early MVP race for this season so far. Victor Wembanyama and the Spurs are off to a 5-0 start for the first time ever in franchise history. If the Spurs end the season atop of the West, is Wemby a lock for MVP? Who are the other candidates Logan and Howard are keeping an eye on this season? With Austin Reaves playing at an extreme, dark-horse MVP level, what does the future hold for him in a contract season? Plus, the GOAT has spoken in an exclusive interview with Mike Tirico on NBC about load management, but is he correct in his assessment with today’s players utilizing load management more? (0:00:00) Intro (1:42) Wemby and the Spurs contending in the West (14:14) Are Giannis and the Bucks threats in the East? (24:38) FanDuel ad break (26:22) Can Tyrese Maxey keep up his MVP pace when Joel Embiid is fully healthy and Paul George returns? (34:44) Is Nikola Jokic still the best player in the NBA? (40:08) Will Austin Reaves be a Laker next season? (57:10) Michael Jordan’s comments on load management (1:16:55) Real One of the Week Hit the mailbag! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out rg-help.com to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Howard BeckProducers: Victoria Valencia and Clifford AugustinAdditional Production Support: Ben Cruz and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping? Real Ones. Logan Murdoch here for a Real One's Halloween edition with myself and Howard Beck, with Cliff also helping out. This was a really fun episode, man. We talked about way too early MVP race. Talked about Janice. Talked about Yonis. Talked about Yonnie. I think so. I'll tell you why. We talked about Nicole Yolkitt's Tyrese MVP talk. You know that was a Cliff edition. And then we talked about load management and Austin Reeves, particularly the Austin Reeves conversation, got into a lot of things with LeBron and the Lakers future, but the load management conversation with MJ gave us a Howard Beck rant, which we always love. Great show for you guys today. Can't wait for you guys to lock in. Make sure you guys tap in with Real Onesmailbag at gmail.com. Real onesmail bag at gmail.com. Real onesmail bag at gmail.

com because we would be answering your questions on Tuesday. I think that's it. Cliff, play the theme music. It's popping. Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Howard brother fucking Beck there. Cliff C. C.C., big C, C, C in the cut.

We're talking very early MVP discussions. We're talking Austin Reeves and we're talking Michael Jordan Lode management. And we have a real one of the week today. But let's start with the obvious Cliffy Boo, not to two or the three is here. Happy Halloween, my brother. What are we doing today? How are we starting this off? It's good, man.

I'm feeling great. Bless to be here with you. Shout out to Beck, man. Beck is going to be outside tonight. So I'm waiting to see They're going to be outside today. I'm waiting to see his Halloween costume. But, you know, as you did,

but we got to get to something spooky that's going on the NBA. And that's Victor Wimbayama. I mean, this guy, Logan, your MVP pick is, this might be a lock at this point, right? Spurs start five and no for the first time ever. Wimby's averaging 30, 14, and three. Almost five blocks per game. It's like better than half the teams alone than blocks per game.

MVP discussion. Logan, where are we at with this right now? How we feel about Wemby in this MVP lock? I think he's a lock I think he's right there at number one I think and I'm really overreacting at this point but every time I see him I'm like this is the greatest player in the league right now

and I know that people are going to be like pushback like no good no he's not no he's not he is the best player in the league at this very moment I don't see anyone better than him at this point I don't care if this is going to be on the old takes exposed episode of real ones later on and what we got wrong if it is I don't believe it's going to be

but he, Beck, has just a certain magic to his game, and I feel like it's all coming together because he's stopped, he stopped taking all the threes, he's going to the cup, but more importantly, his versatility within that offense and defense is what really unlocks the spurs, right? Like, he can be the point center that you need him to be to get an offense ready, right? But also he can get into the post and let Stefan Castle, who's been great this season,

his thing. Dylan Harper, who's been great this season, do his thing. And I think that that's one of the things that, you know, if he needs to go in a pick and roll, he can do it. If he needs to start the pick and roll, he can do it. If he needs to get him into the post, he can do it. And also defensively, the way that he's been versatile. And I think Rajah really touched on this to not only is he getting block shots, but he's scaring the living daylight out of offensive players who don't even want to put the ball up, right? And it's not just in the paint. If you're at the three point line and you see Victor from the paint coming at you,

you're going to think twice about even shooting that three. He has been a transformative force. He has the numbers to back it up. This team is doing great. I think he's right there at number one. Will said, great presentation, Logan. Great stuff.

Have a coffee. October 31st. There are no locks for anything on October 31st of the NBA season. I'm sorry, guys. I hate to pour cold water on this. Also, but I do think this, Logan, like the idea of him as best player in the game, this mythical title that we bestow that is sometimes separate from MVP because that's a single season achievement. And we sometimes say, well, this guy is the best player in the game, but this guy's MVP this year because he had the better season or his team had the better. Wemby versus Shea versus Yokic versus Luca, when we start talking about best player in the league, it gets really interesting because it feels very, very especially to me, because you guys know how I'm wired. It feels very premature to start talking about Wembe as best player in the league, much less MVP for this season when we've got so little sample size. But if you let yourself think about it for a minute, and for those like me who are a little skeptical, not skeptical, of Wemby, but just skeptical of proclamations this early, there's going to be a case because Yokic's brilliance is 98% offense. Shea is a two-way player. Luka is like 97.5% offense. Actually,

maybe 99.5% offense. So the other guys who are in the best player in the game discussion, it's largely because of what they do in offense. With, with Dio, Dorese, respect to Shea, who doesn't affect the game defensively the same way that a guy who is 7-5 and can cover every inch of the floor like Wembe can does. So it does open up a discussion. It's too soon for that discussion, guys, but it opens up the discussion. And I think we all kind of figured over the last couple of years as we saw Wemby so comfortably, not after the very beginning, but eventually start to comfortably evolve into an NBA player and get a feel for things and figure out the best way to use all of his talent and size, that.

the possibility of him being a multi-time MVP and a multi-time DPOI and an all-time great, it's all out there on the table, right? It's all in the picture. We can see it. We can conceive of it. But, you know, yeah, he's got to do it. They have to win. He has to stay healthy.

He has to do it in the postseason. Like, there's a lot of milestones to clear before we can truly get into that. But I don't think it's unfair to let our imaginations run while a little bit. because he makes our imaginations run wild every time we watch him. Yeah, and I mean, all of those things, and also we talked about this last pot, the start that the Spurs have right now in terms of scheduling is really going to be on the side of Wembe when we're talking about wins and the thing that he needs to build an MVP case. Obviously, it's too early, but that's not the point of this discussion, okay?

which he's doing just a little bit but no like that's crazy i have never been more excited in my life to watch a spurs game in my life that's he's been a short life but to see him run the break to see him lock shots and start a break to see him just you know i think i started having this feeling i'm not going to lie last year when i'm not going to lie last year when i'm Um, they, the, was it last year? No, it was, it was two years ago when, um, Wemby and the Spurs went to, uh, Phoenix. It was one of those, um, schedule, you know, how the new NBA schedule is when a team plays a, plays in a market twice in a week span.

And the Spurs went into Phoenix and he went toe to toe with Durant and won. And this is when the spurs had no expectations, right? when they had no point guards to speak of. And he just went in there and bawled and went toe to toe with Durant. And he seemed like he had all the makings of what we're going to see today. But there was a calmness there. There was a, okay, and I felt that also the first time I saw him in Summer League, where you could see he was priming for this moment.

And, you know, one thing that I saw recently was a clip that Draymond put out, or that it was just kind of making the rounds. I think it was the interview that he did with Paul George a few years ago. But the discussion point came about Wimby and what is it going to take for him to get to this level? And Traymond said, you can't really stop him because he's 7.5, but one thing that you can't try to try to inhibit him is to just try to put a body on him and try to overpower him with your strength as a defender. Now it doesn't seem like you can do that, right? And it seems like he at a, and you see that with the fact that he's, He's only taking three three point attempts a game.

And he's really trying to welcome that contact. Last year, I think it was about nine or 8.8 three points a game, which suggests to me that while he was dominant, if he settled for that three, he's basically giving the defense an opportunity to just kind of lag a little bit, right, and not really take it seriously and just give up possessions as a whole. Now he's taking it to the defense. And now if he gets, if the spurs continue on this role and they gain confidence around him, and we talked about the Deerian Fox, what was the word that you used again? Started with an S. Superfluous. Superfluous. Suburfluous.

Among other premature declarations on this pod so far in this young season. By the way, my buddies at the Santa Ana20 Express News, not having nothing to do with me saying this, in that same time frame had a story that I saw the next day about how why the spurs will still need Deeran Fox. Yeah, anyways, when he comes into the fold, I'm really curious to see how that happens. But I just, I think Wimby is going to be the great equalizer for this offense because he can really plug in a lot of holes. And he really helps those point guards out. I don't think it's a coincidence that Dylan Harper is having the season that he's having, that Stefan Castle is having to the season that he's having. And I think that he can really, if DeGaron Fox is paying attention well, he can also kind of go into that fold.

And I think this Spurs team is really dangerous. and I think that they can creep it to the top four, which I also predicted in our season preview. It's on the table. It's on the table. Even if I'm not ready to start making all the wild proclamations about MVP, best player in the league game, all that other stuff, I will say this much.

I do think Wembe is the undisputed must watch player in the NBA now. And we talked about this a little bit the other day, just like he's the guy that you're texting your buddies about in real time. Like there's nobody else who, when we're looking up to schedule each night, you're like, ooh, even if, like maybe a crap game and you're like you don't you're not interested in who they're playing you're still going to be tempted to watch spurs nets was much watch it was a must watch television yeah and it's that's like there's not you know i'm you know that's my backyard i'm not gonna be

seen a lot of nets this year unless they're playing wemby or step or somebody uh but i had to watch that game no question yeah and also not even just like the must watch like you have to put it on on a league pass when they're on it's also like he's has so many highlights to start, you're almost watching his games through social at this point, right? Like he makes a play in the first quarter. He does the double block at the first quarter. You see it on all the social platforms, right?

Then the second quarter, it's a logo three. You basically get his whole game within an hour span on Instagram and TikTok and all these places because he's that dynamic and that exciting, right? it's whatever if he stays healthy he is the face of the league no matter what and I don't want to like I'm not inviting that conversation right now I'm just saying it as a merit of fact right now if he continues to do this and stay healthy he is the next it guy and it's it's just is what it is we always talked about the face of the league as someone that's going to have to take it and through five games he's pretty much the must watch spectacle of this league and I think that that's what's

important and I think that also can strengthen his influence. be P-Ks because we continue to want to watch him and we're going to continue to see him evolve and we're going to continue to see him make big plays. So I think that's his argument thus far. Yeah, you got anything else on Wemby? Nah, I think we well covered it for now. We got we got many, many weeks to go of this. So we got to save a little bit of... This is going to be the new Wemby podcast. We're pretty much going to talk about him every week. We got to save some hyperbole for January, February, March, and April and possibly May.

Maybe June? Did I say May? Maybe you said. That was hyperbole for October. Okay, okay. All right. Who's next on the MVP list, Cliff? On the MVP list, there's a guy on the Milwaukee Bucks name, Ryan Rawlins.

Yo, I kid you not. Hold on, hold on. I kid you not. In our chat, Connor Nevins, who holds it down for us at the ringer in the podcast space, he was like, serious question. Who was Ryan Rollins? in our real ones chat was hilarious which is a perfectly fair question

for about 99% of the population watching the NBA that's a perfectly fair question however get back to the bucks the young bucks who I really enjoy watching by the way Logan they beat your warriors your Golden State Warriors

120 to 110 last night Janus No hey without Janus Hold on chill chill chill chill they're not my Golden State Warriors They're Howard's Golden State Warriors Howard is the one

You both from the bay He is the no Howard, I have to just point out, did the night night celebration that became the screen grab for the podcast. I didn't do that. That was him. They asked us out of the blue to do something.

I had not prepared. Howard got caught up in the rapture. It was the easiest thing. What is the most recognizable NBA gesture right now? It might be that little pool, this thing right here, where everybody does that, the Jordan Pool Celebration? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing involving Jordan Poole is the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Howard is definitely the Warriors propaganda artists at this point. Let's talk of shit on Jordan Poole. Go ahead. Who are we talking about?

We're talking about the Janus, right? We're talking about Janus under DeCubo. He was on an absolute terror, probably just as good of a terror as Wembe is for the MVP discussion. Average of 36, 14, to 7. Although he did sit out last night against the Warriors, the Golden State Warriors. Duck in the smoke. The young bucks held it down.

Ryan Rollins, 32 points. to Logan said, who is this guy? He said, what is going on with this guy? But the young bucks held it down. AJ Green right now is currently averaging 11 points per game, shooting 55% from three. Gary Tran Jr. is averaging 13 per game, 39% from three.

And Ryan Rawls is averaging 18 per game, 44% from three. The bucks are currently four in one in the standings. How do you feel about the bucks and how you feel about Janice's MVP candidacy as well? So basketball reference does their MVP tracker, which like everything else at this stage of the season, and is going to be warped by small sample size.

But Wemby is actually the favorite at 40.5% in the track. The tracker is just like, it's just process, it's an algorithm, right? It's just processing past results for MVP and it bakes in record and stats and everything else. So Wembe's at 40.5%. Yonis is second at 30.5%. And then it drops precipitously. Maxi at 12%.

Yokic at 7.6. Yokich, the consensus favorite preseason. Shea, the defending MVP, is down at 5.7%. And then after that, do you guys want to guess who's after Wemby, Janice, Maxi, Yokic, SGA, coming in at 1.4%. Ann Edwards? Steph Curry. Another guy who's off to a...

Austin Reeves. Austin Reeves. There you go. Austin Reeves. On the MVP tracker. We'll get to him in a second. Yonis has been awesome. Ryan Rollins is making people look up his basketball reference page in his Wikipedia.

you. Shout out to Connor. But, like, Janus is doing exactly what the Bucks obviously hoped, what Janus, I'm certain, I would imagine envisioned. And what anybody who is a diehard Bucks fan after an entire summer of them being tortured by all of us in the media saying, is this the summer he asks out, you know, various, you know, unsourced reports and anonymous murmurs and all this other stuff. the best case scenario for the bucks was going to be Janus plays it cool we'll wait and see which is essentially what he said he said six or seven months I might feel differently but right now this is where I am and I'm committed to this team and he's he's brushed away everything else all the chatter

but the best case scenario is that Janus has that mindset that he backs it up with absolute peak Janus play which he has that he becomes basically their de facto point guard because they don't really have one due respect to Ryan Rollins who's like you know, he has put up back-to-back career high-scoring games, but Ryan Rawls isn't going to be your classic NBA playmaker, organize the offense guy. He's a feisty-ass defender and has put up some points now. But Janus is the engine of this offense on most nights last night, obviously an exception. But Janus has done it all, and he can. And I think with the Bucks felt in the offseason, after getting Miles Turner, which, you know, obviously drew mixed reactions because of

what it did their cap by waving and stretching dame. Is Miles Turner at this stage worth that money? Is this the last bullet you could fire? Because you really don't have any other ways to go here to or to bolster the roster. But they felt good about it because of what Miles Turner can do at both ends. And because they knew that Janus unleashed as just your all-purpose playmaker score, everything, defensive anchor leader, that if they've got shooting and even a little bit of playmaking around him, they can get by at minimum. I don't know if anybody there would proclaim them a contender, but I think that they felt that with Janus at his peak

and a solid enough supporting cast and some young guys like Rollins and Green with upside, that the potential to, you know, at least be competitive in a kind of weird Eastern conference this year, that it was there. And that's what we're seeing so far. Janus has been awesome. I just, you just talked about it.

I just, I think he's been great. I don't know how sustainable the supporting cast around him is. I watched that game, you know, and I'm probably the only person on this call that, like, knew who Ryan Rollins was, considering he was in the Bay Area and he was a second round pick for the Warriors. And I can tell you, no one saw this coming. He was, I think he was in the pool trade as like a throw-in and then got rerouted to Milwaukee. No, the Wizards waived him. Yeah.

rebuilding tanking wizards waived him in January of 2024 and then the buck signed him to a two-way deal initially. Yeah. Real contract this past summer three years, 12 million. So yeah, this is a guy, this is like Jeremy Lynn-esque where it's like teams just keep tossing you aside and then suddenly boom, you know? Yeah. And then so he gets into the guard rotation. And it's just one of the great early stories of the season. But like there's no reason to believe at this very point.

that he could sustain this over an 82 game season, right? Like there's just, and then also say he does, then you're going to have to trust him in a playoff setting to, you know, get, to play playoff minutes and play at a high level in the way that Janus wants to in the setting that Janus wants to in June. And I don't know if that's realistic at this point or you can say that's realistic at this point,

which makes it just kind of at this point, the potential for fools gold, which I'm scared for Janus, right but the thing what yonis is man it's getting to a point with his little double duts like in and out am i going to leave or am i not going to leave like it's getting to a point where i don't believe yonis is ever going to leave milwaukee right like because he keeps saying and he keeps poking it out there and i think like during the nix game there were some there were some like uh lip reading people that said like i'm not leaving was it i'm not leaving or was it like this is

my city and i'm not going to ever leave you at least that was with the with the with the reddits and the conspiracy theorists out there were saying when they were trying to lip read, which Howard is out here, you know, shaking his head, no, because, you know, he doesn't believe in conspiracy theories. And also, I want to say, I will say this. I'm not going to shout out the cameraman, or I will shout him out because he cut it that camera angle at the next game just at the right time where we were about to read his lips and they cut it to his brother. And I'm like, yo, man, we wanted to see what Janus was saying. All that to say, Janus is in. The MVP case is great right now, but it's shaky because of the supporting cast.

And I just don't know what, I don't have an answer to what they're going to be. Because if they, if Ryan Rollins goes back to where he's supposed to go or where he thinks he goes and regresses to the mean, this is an average basketball team, even with Jan is playing at this level. So that's going to push him down. He's the, he's one of the MVP candidates through five games, but it's probably going to be a tough time sailing, keeping at this pace based on. on his supporting cast right now. Janice is going to finish top five at MVP voting as long as he makes the 65 game minimum and the bucks are even semi-respectable

because Janus is always in the top five in MVP voting because he always has the production to back it up. But it's hard to crack the top two if your team is not a contender. And yeah, I don't expect them to be either. A lot of things. He would have to average like 45, 15, and like 10

if he's going to win, they're going to win 43 games. Like it would have to be like the Russell Westbrook type of like MVP case. But also like you you can't approach 50 wins, which is what it usually requires to be a serious, serious MVP candidate. You can't approach 50 wins if you don't have another All-Star in in the supporting cast. And like they just don't. Like it's, I'm sorry, it's not going to be Ryan Rollins. It's not going to be Miles Turner, who is the most accomplished teammate he has. You know, AJ Green like, you know, Bobby Portis, Gary Trent. Like there's like

There's a bunch of good players here. Solid rotation guys, but not the kind of guys who are going to carry you to a 50 to 50. They're like average to below average supporting cast right now. And this is what it is. Yeah, but Janus raises all boats. And that's what he has to do. That's his mission this season. But, I mean, listen, as recently as, I don't know, I think five minutes before we started recording today,

there was another Shams report about, you know, keep an eye on LeBron, Janus, and Trey as possible trade candidates. this season. I don't think we should be shocked by any of that. And that's that's not saying that there's anything in the works. It's just that they are all in uncertain positions. LeBron and Trey Young are on expiring deals. We know the situation with LeBron in particular. Janus is eligible for like a $300 million extension next summer, which if he were to get to that point and say no, suddenly they're on the clock and things get really stressful in Milwaukee. So, like, everything just depends on how the next couple of months go. I don't expect an in-season Janus trade.

I don't know that I ever expect a Janus trade necessarily. But we are, we are, this is an inflection point for the bucks. And this season matters. And how the next couple of months goes matters because it, you know, as he said, I think on Media Day, you know, I could feel differently in six or seven months because I'm only human. And that's fair. Well, the problem is they don't have The Milwaukee Bucks have little to no trade assets

Unless they trade Yannis, right? They don't have any picks. Miles Turner, I don't think is going to fetch like big things on the trade market Like he's like really their only trade piece on the roster at this point. Yeah, there's no excuse moves here to make for them. No, not at all. And so like I just I I know Yonis probably wants to stay

And I know I'm really contradicting myself on what I just said like literally five minutes ago because I don't think he necessarily wants to leave. That's why he keeps getting pushed back, but there's really no world to improve this team other than trading away the greatest player in franchise history. And we'll see what happens, man. But it's good to see him balling at this point. And I don't know how long this is going to last.

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Let's get to Howard's pick. Nicola Yokic, Howard's preseason. Wow. Wait. I thought you were going to do the Cliff Homer pick. No. You just texted me that you were going to. No, do it.

Let's just do it for shits and gigs. All right. This is doing it for shits and gigs. Okay. You want to do the homework pick? Let's do the homer pick. Tyrese. He's on the MVP track.

He's on the MVP track. He's on the MVP trade right now. My boy's going absolutely crazy. Playing damn their all game, 37 points per game, 45% from the field, 47% from three, eight assists per game.

I mean, this guy's downhill, gets any shot he wants, gets open anytime he wants, has his running mate, VJ Edgecom, they're trying to call them B.J. Max. Sixes are undefeated right now. I mean, look, it's possible. I got a question for you.

I got a question for you at this point. Do you want PG and M.B. to come back right now? Yes. I absolutely want them to come back, and I want them to come back and be a part of this. Because look, the Sixes can, the East is up, man. It's up for these. Shout to my boy, Stephanie's on the call right now. But, you know, the Sixes can't compete.

Hey, if Embeddead and Paul George can somewhat contribute, the Sixes could absolutely play, go toe to toe with them. any playoff series. Look, it's not wishful thinking. Howard said this before this season. I was down to my luck. I was just like, same old sixers, same old sixers.

But I'm starting to believe again, man. I'm feeling it. I love what they got going on right now. Tyrese has been at MVP level all season, and I think it's going to continue. I don't think, I mean, obviously he's not going to average 37 a game, but I mean,

30 a game for Tyrese maxi, that's very achievable, very achievable. I love that. I love that for Tyrese. I just don't think this is sustainable. I think it would be sustainable if you didn't have PG and B coming back. But I just don't see this as sustainable.

I think there's going to be a seasonal reckoning because you have two sides of the coin, right? You have this very exciting up and down, beat your ass, exciting team. And then you're going to have these two superstars are going to want to take back their share of the offense. And it's really a tough thing to juggle. And I just think that it's going to be an inflection point at this point.

And that's going to really undercut Maxi's candidacy. And I really just threw the ball off the backboard to make you do that just so I can say this. So I apologize. But that's what I just see, Howard. I see a great story being nosedived at when M.B. and P.G. come back. I'm sorry. And Bid, no, hold on. First of all, Mbid is already back.

Like, he's been playing. Like, he took the... No, when he gets off minutes restriction and when he's completely can be M.B. And then when Paul George comes into the fold. Right? Like, and the thing is, like, I don't want to, I don't want to prematurely, you know, I don't want to prematurely Karim Mbid. But you get toward the end of your career and sometimes it's nice to be able to lean on a fresh young stud who can just go all out for 35, 38 minutes a game.

It's too, like Mbid is too young to be Kareem, you know, passing the baton to magic, right? But Mbid has been so banged up with so many surgeries and everything. We don't actually know what he will get back. to. I've been the optimist on this saying, hey, there's no reason to think that he can't get back to whatever, 80, 90% of what he was, but that's yet to be seen. We don't know. And for right now, he looks very, he doesn't always look comfortable on the court the way he's moving, although it was a

little better at the last game. But I do think he has looked comfortable in letting Maxie be the thrust of this offense, being the engine of this offense. I don't know that Embedied after everything he's gone through unless he feels close to 100%. And then it's like, okay, it's my time again. I'm still the guy. I can still be an MVP candidate. I can still be all MBA. I can still be one of the best players in this league.

Yeah, then Logan, I understand where the chemistry issues and the ego issues kind of could get involved. But at this stage, it's a huge luxury for him to be able to kind of like ease back in and let Maxie and Edgecombe and others carry the load. Paul George is late in his career, you know, a few years older than MB, I think four or five years older than Embed like Paul George, I don't think he's going to come back needing to be the man. So I'm not as concerned about the chemistry thing as you are. I'm more concerned just about like the overall like the basketball chemistry, the mix, whether the two old vets, older vets can stay healthy long enough for them to be that competitive. But the talent across the board is there, especially if Edgecombe is going to have a rookie year type season.

And Maxie, obviously he'll come back to Earth a little bit. But I think my concern with Maxi is like, dude plays just so all out. I'm a little worried about like the minutes and the wear and tear because he also. also just takes a beating. Like he's, he's, he's, throwing himself

in there among the trees and the paint. Um, by the way, can we just talk about VJ Max as a nickname for it real quick?

It's pretty fire. Shout okay, Scott. No, no, phenomenal word play and, and, uh, brand play.

But like, how many NBA players are, are shopping at TJ Max? I mean, it's kind of like, like, do we really want to be Nick?

That's not the point. I mean, like the discount clothing chain. Hey, man, hey, I'm going to say this right now. We are not going to besperse

the name of T.J. Max on this podcast. I don't care in what contacts and who we're talking about. I thought you were more of a Ross dressed for less guy, Logan. No, bro. I used to go to, I used to get all my clothes from T.J. Max. Bro. I remember I got a coogey jacket. And, uh, after fresh, oh, going into freshman year of high school. And it was like MSRP was like $300. I got that thing for $50 at T.J. Max, bro. And I wore the shit out of that thing. I was out of icy. I thought I was Biggie Smalls. But you're too young to remember Mervin's in the Bay Area. You got me effed up, bro. I know about Marvins.

I'm not about to mess with none of them. What the fuck I, bro? I know about all the Mervins. For a long time. How about the Emporium? I'm not as young as you think. I'm not as you think. I don't know what that.

I don't know what that. That's Jesus Christ. Okay, I know Mervins. You know what I mean? I know, I know T.J. I know Montgomery Ward. Hey, listen. All right.

I know me some Montgomery Ward. They have one R. 70s and 80s, man. Yeah, yeah. I got a little bit of that. But I'm just saying, We're not going to smirch the name with T.J. Max. And VJ. Max is a great thing.

That means they're for the people, Howard? What are you talking about? Philly's a working class town. They're not with that bullshit. They'd be like, Berdolph Goofman. They leave that shit to Stefan and them New Yorkers, bro. We went out here, bro. We go to Beards and we locked in.

Huh? No, Stefan Anderson. Not Stefan. Yeah, yeah. Stefan Anderson. We're talking about him to New Yorkers. They do boozy types. Anyways, we got off track.

Shout out Maxie. The thing, though, You know, I don't, I'm not as concerned about necessarily like the fall off of Maxi is like Edgecom, right? There's always a rookie wall. It's probably around January, February. However, they still have evolutions that they need to have throughout this season. And you're right. Hopefully, and be, you know, even when he has if or when he does continue to get healthy,

that he does just kind of fall in line, right? But then there's like kind of perky quotes that I'm concerned about. He's like, I'd rather to stay home than, then I might as well stay home than play this. 20 minute restriction, right? And then Paul George, we've already talked about how, you know, he has a bit of some of his identity crises with some of the close that he puts out. There's a little concern. It's all it is. It's just a little concern. I don't mind to be pushing back against the minutes restriction because that's frustrating for any player when they're like, hey, look, I want to do more. I hate having to be, you know, pulled from a game in the third quarter, right?

Like, that's fine. I'd prefer that to, I got to shoot 20 times a game, or I need the offense to run through me or, you know, various versions of that. He's not, he's not saying I still have to be the number one guy. Is this less Kareem and maybe more late stage Pat Ewing? Mm. Late stage shack even. Yeah. I mean, it's tough. When you're, when, when you've spent your entire career as the guy and you're used to just like dominating people and having everything revolve around you, like, it is, it is tough to kind of downshift or or take on a secondary role. but I don't know just the accumulation of all the injuries and surgeries

and everything that MBE has gone through I don't know maybe maybe that's kind of changed his outlook a little bit but we'll see I want to see where he is physically a month from now and then how that translates to the court and the biplay you know the interactions between him and the rest of supporting cast

as Paul George back by then like there's there are like several iterations of the Sixers to go here yet a lot of Sixers talk Cliff a little bit more than we do I didn't even ask for it. I was trying to get the Yokish. I wanted to get to a real event candidate.

Dude is currently averaging in triple double right now. I think, I believe he's the first person since Oscar Robinson the average, or to have a triple double and Russell Westbrook.

Which is insane, totally insanity. After the Nuggets lost. And Russell Westbrook, don't disrespect to the rest. No, no, no, disrespect to Russ.

We love Russell over here, right Howard? Playing the role of Raja Bell today is Logan Murdoch. Virgo gang. Ah, so after the loss of the war, Warriors and Nuggets have been on a tear, absolutely smacking teams.

Right now they're currently top five in offensive rating and defensive rating. Howard, where we have with this Yokish thing? You said he's at 17% on whatever that scale is right there. I mean, come. The algorithm is very much disrespecting Nicolaiyokic. So where is here. He's at 7.6% on the basketball reference MVP tracker. Just disrespect from the algorithm.

No disrespect on the real ones, though. Dude, Yokic is still the best player in the NBA. I'm not passing that to Wemby just yet. The nuggets are off to a perfectly fine, solid start. I think, you know, Cam Johnson is still kind of, I think, finding his way with them. But, you know, Aaron Gordon, you know, really fast start to the season. Jamal Murray is looking like his old self. The nuggets are right in the thick of things.

Yokich is just doing Yokic things, which we will, you know, I think we, he long ago reached the take him for granted. level of NBA star where we like he puts up these stupid numbers on ridiculous efficiency and we're just used to it we're numb to it um and for that team the only thing that matters is can they get back to the finals right so anything short of that it's going to feel like a disappointment but yokech's numbers like they basically never falter his production never falters his playmaking his scoring everything he does for that team it's as consistent as you can possibly get in this league and the nuggets are just going to be there and we're going to get you know you know, stars in our eyes as we watch Wemby

and maybe Maxie and other guys and Austin Reeves do their thing early in the season. But we know what it's going to be in April. The Nuggets are going to be one of the top two or three teams in the West, and Yokic is going to have stupid numbers again. And he's, you know, he was my preseason pick for MVP and a lot of others. And, you know, I think it's a pretty damn good chance. That's where we end up.

Yeah, man. I mean, he's slub mostly with the poster trying to get to the ocean, man. You know, they're throwing that. I saw him play against Minnesota, and it was this textbook, man. It was his textbook, run the offense through him. It's just meat and potatoes. I'm going to get my numbers, and we're going to go get up out of here. I think one thing I just want to see from the Nuggets is just consistency throughout the season.

And one thing that they take their foot off the gas. And that's one of the things. And I wonder, I feel like this team is a bit more rejuvenated. You know, after all of the BS that happened with Michael Malone last year in the front office. and the infighting. I think the nuggets this season have a lot to prove, and that that's something that they're showing. And I'm not really, like, too concerned

with the inconsistency of Cam Johnson. You know, I think that he's just a steady force. And that's the guy's something that they needed, as opposed to the unpredictability of Michael Porter Jr., who you're going to see a lot of in Brooklyn, Howard. A lot of in viral reels of him saying wacky things on his podcast and elsewhere. Listen, I've been stride to a,

it, but Cliff keeps putting them in the Instagram chat with me and V. Like, I'm literally trying to avoid everything Michael Porter, Jr., but Cliff likes to troll, and that's what we're going to see. Anyways, I'd really like the- Cliff has put that in the chat just with you guys and not the one that also includes me because he probably already knows what's going to happen. Howard Beck has left the conversation. No, I think they're slow motion, man.

I think that he's going to be right in the fold of things. I mean, even the algorithm takes Yokets for granted at this point, right? And we'll see what happens. But one thing that I just want to see is I want to see Nuggets continue to keep their foot on the gas and just put the fear of God in teams. And I think that that's something that they struggled to do over the last few years. And this curious losses that continue to happen just like in March and early April before they get to the post season.

But they're fine. They're writing thick of things and Yokic is Yokic. I like it. I like it a lot. Now, Logan, let's get to Austin. I'm him. Reeves going crazy right now without LeBron and Luca. You're really real festive today.

Why you got the purple and gold like that? What's going on over there, Logan? You got an L.A. King's Joint. This was my excuse. It's Halloween. I just wanted to dress like a hockey player today. That's really all this was. You were supposed to dress like a hockey player.

Where the hell is your mask? Oh, I got my. Didn't you? Weren't she supposed to be festive? I got. Don't you have a hockey jersey, too? I do got a hockey jersey, but it's sitting in the back right now. I'm not going to put it on now, but, you know, I got the mask.

This mask is going to be worn. I'm going to be a brush to your bully, so, you know, fits, right? You outside tonight? You outside tonight? No, I'm not outside tonight. I'm, you know, I'm going to take it easy. Okay. But let's get to Austin.

Austin. I'm in the NBA right now. He sends all the memes that Austin Reeves, him and Braves. him and braids. So Austin Rees' last five games without LeBron and Luca. He's averaging 40 points, 10 assists, 6 rebounds. And the splits are 50, 40, 90 in those games. So, I mean, what does this mean for the Lakers as a whole, Austin Rees, man?

Is he an MVP candidate for real, Howard? That said 1%, you know, is he a dark horse? What are we doing here with Austin Rees? I might put some money on that. I think he should screenshot the basketball reference MVP tracker right now and like print it out frame it put it on the wall just for keepsake you know uh Luca Luca could be back as soon as tonight I think they've upgraded him to questionable um so yeah the real Laker MVP candidate will be back soon and then LeBron it'll be back in a few weeks and um I think

Austin Reeves uh stats and thus algorithm results are going to take a bit of a hit but I mean listen like incredible week and exactly what the Lakers needed uh at a time when they don't have their two stars. And I mean, we've seen flashes from Austin Reeves before. He's a really talented offensive player. He can do a lot with the ball in his hands. He can run your offense. He can score. And he can get on a run like this. I don't think this is what you expect for an 82 game run. I don't think in a potential future without LeBron, it's suddenly the Luca and Austin Reeves show. And you can say, there we go. We're good to go. I think that's a bit of a stretch. but listen, this is a, you know, this is a win for the Lakers on several levels.

Homegrown, undrafted, you know, Rob Polink in his front office, found this guy. He has done nothing but improve every season. He's already 27 years old, right? Like, it feels like he's young because he only in his fifth season, but he was a four-year player and he's 27 years old. So, like, he's in his prime. I'm not saying he's old, but like this is not like you don't expect a ton more growth or evolution to happen by the time a guy's hit this age,

he gives them some sort of assurance so that in the course of this season, when Luca or LeBron are not available or ailing, you have somebody else you can play through. That's great. He's also heading to free agency. And the price on him, it seems like, just keeps going up year after year for when he hits free agency. And, you know, a run like this only enhances that.

Our buddy Dan Waiky over at the Athletic had done a story like right before training camp, noting the Austin Reeves had turned down a four-year $89 million extension this summer in June. That would have been $22 million a year. That was the most of the Lakers could offer it an extension. He has a player option for $14.8 million next summer that he's definitely going to turn down. And so Dan Weiki, again, for the athletic, talked to a bunch of people around the league over the course of the summer. They expect Reeves to earn, this is team in league sources, expect Reeves to earn more than 35 million a year on his next deal,

and that a couple of them even said he could command 40 million a year. So that's a lot for the Lakers to have to consider, right? Because Luke is making the max. Austin Reeves could be making 35, 40. It starts to really squeeze you when you still actually need a second star, right? I don't think Austria should be your third best player in this equation if you're trying to contend. So LeBron can come off the books.

Austin Reeves stays on if they're keeping him at that price. It gets tricky. I do wonder. And I was one thing I was wondering when you're finally going to get to the point of like, does Austin Reeves make LeBron expendable? But I do wonder about the market, right? Especially when the NBA is in this hard cap era.

Because, yes, he is playing out of his mind and there's a bit of a Lakers tax with Reeves. But if you're paying Austin Reeves $40 million, that's like facing a franchise money. So what other team is going to take that risk? I mean, you know, the Sacramento Kings definitely exist, right? I don't know if they're going to necessarily have the cap space. They might, but, you know, if they make do some maneuvering.

But like, what team out there is going to say, hey, we want Austin Reeves at $40 million a popper, $35 million. as a season to lead our team to a championship because that's literally what we're asking right now. Maybe to Charlotte say, yo, Austin Reeves can get us to the promise land right now. I'm not saying that he's not going to get the money, but I do wonder like in this new, in this new era of where we're going and these ballooning salaries, are these players actually going to get them if they aren't actually franchise level guys, right? We talked about even with Memphis, right? And that's kind of the concern level with Jai. Like, are you going to

to pay him all this money where they're at right now. And that's John Morant, who I do believe, as a face of the franchise right now, is better than Austin Reeves. That's the question that I'm really, don't really have an answer for, right? Because right now it's easy to say he's a $40 million player when he's balling and he's on TV every day and he's scoring these bonkers numbers. But like, if a team actually wants to win a championship, do they want to build around a guy like that, who you said is 27 years old?

is probably not a second, even a number two guy on your team. Like, what is the expectation when you're bringing an Austin Reeves into the building? That's, you know, like, it's a little too inflated. And I do wonder, as we get into our hard cap and we get into this new era, I know you can't necessarily guard against, you know, front office stupidity. But is that really the right decision going forward if you're another team trying to poach a guy? Like you're trying to fit $40 million to get 39 wins. Like I just don't see it.

Like that's going to be a scary, increasingly be a scary proposition as the years go on when you see the Austin Reeves of the world. Play and play, like maybe above that they do above their ability during a few weeks stretch. Like I just don't know, have the answer for that. And I think that that's going to be something that's going to be interesting going

forward. Yeah, to be clear, like those estimates on what he might earn next summer, that was from interviews that Dan Wyke was doing back in like September and August. That's before he goes on this historic streak that he just went on historic for him. Well, what I'm saying is this, I get it. They're saying this in September. They were also saying that shit about Kaminga a few years ago too as well. It's one thing to predict what he's going to get versus him actually being in the open market.

When we talk to people around the league, executives, scouts, other people, and we start trying to get sense of like a guy's worth, his trade value, his free agent market value, all that stuff. I think it's definitely baked in, Logan, as you're pointing out, like, it's easier for guys to say this in theory based on, oh, I'm seeing this guy do XYZ every night. I think he could commend this kind of salary. That's what it would be worth. And it's the market conditions are different, right? Because as you note, we're in a virtual hard cap era. It's, you know, it's not really a hard cap. It's the second apron, but it's functioning for a lot of teams like a virtual hard cap and things are tighter than they've ever been. And the last couple of summers have been

pretty quiet on the free agency front. I think there's maybe a half dozen teams that could have significant cap room next summer. And the summer after that, it's going to loosen up even more. So we are going to get closer to equilibrium again, right? Like it takes teams a while to recalibrate when you're in a much harsher, tighter, new economic system. But we will get there and there will be cap room. The question is, and this is the thing I've been posing to front of office folks the last couple of years, ever since that CBA went to effect, is, are we going to see a kind of a recalibration of even how we value second and third tier type stars, right? And this is not to pick on a Zach Levine or a Brandon Ingram or guys at that tier, but guys who were getting max money

at one time, but when you realize they're not really your franchise star and you can't build a competitive or a contending team around them, you need to ratchet those down to second tier to third tier money instead. And so the question becomes is, you know, when Zach Levine comes up, he's not getting this kind of money again, right? So what you don't want to do is make Austin Reeves the next like Zach Levine. Apologies again to Zach Levine. I don't mean to be picking on him. But you have to, you have to pay guys their actual value. Sometimes it has to be a little bit above, but you'd like to pay them at their value or below to actually have a functioning roster that you can continue to build out. Because if you overpay a,

third or second tier player and make them a max guy, make them the guy that is being paid like a franchise player, you're screwed. And in this city, it's really hard to regain that flexibility. You've just married yourself to, you know, a really tight cap situation and very little flexibility. So I do think there's going to be a recalibration. I do think that teams are going to hold the line on the Austin Reeves types where, no, you shouldn't be paying him probably 35 or 40 million if you expect to build. Now, granted, the cap keeps going up too, right? So we really need to think in terms of percentage of the cap and not so much these eye-popping numbers. And if 35 million of the cap today is whatever, 30% of the cap, 25% of the cap, and in a few years from now, if he's, if he were on a steady

deal, on a flat deal, and that's a less and less percentage of the cap as the cap goes up. Like, you can probably find a way to mathematically make this work. But you've got to be careful. And that works in the Lakers favor. I do think, real other quick thought on this before we leave the topic potentially, I don't know where you're going next with this, Logan, but I just wanted to note this. I think this is a really critical inflection point for the Lakers and Rob Polinka in this front office

because LeBron came to the Lakers because LeBron wanted to play for the Lakers. Anthony Davis came to the Lakers because he wanted to play with LeBron and Clutch wanted him with LeBron. Luca ended up with the Lakers because Nico Harrison only wanted to negotiate. with one team. Point being, the hard part is that when you have the franchise star, you have to build out the contender around him. And LeBron is soon to be 41 and probably coming off the books next summer and you have to replace

him. They need a running mate for Luca. Austin Reeves is a running mate, but he's not the running mate. So figuring out Austin Reeves, figuring out next summer period, figuring out who else you are going to bring to start building around Luca, who. is about to turn 27 in February himself. Like, Austin Reeves is on his timeline.

That's cool. And he's a homegrown guy and everything else. But again, you can't overspend on Austin Reeves if you still need to find a true number two co-star to go with Luca. And by the way, those two together would be a liability defensively.

So your second star should hopefully be somebody who is a two-way guy or could do a lot more in the defense event. So I'm getting way ahead of myself here, but I think we're at a real inflection point because they have a lot of work to do. And it's not, it's not obvious right now because you have Lucas still. You have LeBron coming back soon. You have Osteries balling out. They're off to a nice start. But like there's, there's some really big stuff coming up for them in terms of just their decision making and their

roster decisions. Absolutely. I mean, I think that, well, there's two things here that I would respond to. One is like adding to the conversation that we just had in terms of value, I think LeBron is going to have a really harsh reality this summer when it comes to what his value is and what he perceives his value to be. It's going to be pretty rough for him. There's going to be a lot of posturing and all these things. And so we'll see what happens with that, but he's going to have a really stark reality when it comes to that. The other thing is the Lakers, just like pretty much everybody else in the league, is on Yonis watch. They want Yonis. They want to get Yonis in the building and they want it that's who they want their co-star alongside luka to be and he fits all the

things that the lakers want in a superstar historically and for the right now and that's why they are hedging all of their bets and hedging um and seeing what they're going to do for a trade or how they're going to um you know look at the next few seasons but they got to they got to figure that out first at least internally is jana's going to be a available. So, and that is going to instruct how they go about how they, LeBron's future and how they see Austin Reeves' future and, you know, Lucas future in Los Angeles. But I think that's the first domino to fall right now, like is what is Janus going to do? And I think that's holding up a lot of their plans, or at least informing a lot of their plans going forward.

Yeah. And I should mention, so Janus has the, extension eligibility next summer. If he doesn't sign, he could be a free agent the following summer in 2027. So that's what you're seeing. With the clippers, their books are lined up for a ton of cap room in 2027. The Lakers are looking at 2027. The Warriors are looking at 2027. You know, like, listen, every team that considers themselves a destination franchise in either a big market or a warm weather market, glamour market, they're all eyeing this. And I know that that pisses off, Bucks fans and a lot of our listeners who I then end up hearing from every time we talk about this, but folks, I'm sorry, this is the reality.

This is what the league is. Everybody is plotting to steal your star. Your star. Any star. This is what they do. This is their jobs. And then we talk to them about that because it's our job. And then we talk about it and you get mad.

I'm sorry. Okay. How happy you're- Let's take a quick break. Let's take a quick break. And then we're going to talk about a little thing like, to call load management. And we are back.

What's next on the docket cliff? Let's get to the great one, man. How however you guys to see Michael Jordan back in the basketball fold? I know Howard had some thoughts about MJ when we were out in LA having a good old time watching some basketball. So how do you feel about MJ being back, NBA on NBC? The whole thing, his conversation with Mike Torrico, everything. Before we get to what we're going to talk about, I just want to say NBC has had a fantastic

rollout to their first year back in the league. man like I love their coast to coast segments I love their studio show Maria Taylor um I love Bob Costas out here doing cameos man like they are putting their best foot forward and marketing the game and in a way that we just honestly haven't seen and at least a decade I'm not going to say since um NBC has had the rights because I feel like ESPN did a lot of great storytelling and I think there was a lot of great storytelling around the game but I think the way NBC is going right now I think that they're going to be the number one team in the next two years, just in how we think about the league and how we think about, you know,

where we go for, you know, league propaganda. And I think they're doing a great job. And yeah, man, I've been really excited. Like, Tariko's just great. Like, even in the interviews that we're going to get to, he's just great in what he does. He's so versatile in calling games, but also interviewing. And it's just been, you know, it's been awesome and been a treat to have NBC basketball back in our lives with the end.

Love Toriko. but also, man, loved the Costas intro previewing Nick's bucks the other night. Like that was like the ultimate throwback. I don't, you know, I don't know why every game can't be like this. Why can't like, Costas, whoever. He doesn't have to be Bob Costas, although he is the master of this. Can we just get that style of intro of that hype, that buildup before every game or at least? Can you care about the game networks like NBC does?

Can you care about it, please? I just want to care as much as we do. Yeah, this isn't hard. No, I second everything you're saying. I have one note on the NBC thing. I bet you do. I always do. But they've been great.

They've been fun. It's just fun, period, shaking it up a little bit. And this is no shade at ESPN or Turner, but we've had the same to NBA national partners for a long time here. And the whole time, like, I'm still sad that things went the way they did with Turner and the NBA, but like this whole time where we were like, oh, Amazon Prime is getting a piece. Oh, NBC's coming back into the fold. Oh, they're hiring up. They're bringing in like, you know, some old faces where they just poached from Turner or whatever, but they're bringing in new faces.

It's going to be a new combination of folks in studio, different broadcast teams on the games. Like just the fact that there's like a kind of a refresh is a good thing. And so I've been enjoying that in general. Anyways, the great one had a conversation with Mike Tariko. and he mentioned load management in today's players and load management. Let me just give you guys a quick quote. It shouldn't be needed. I never wanted to miss a game because it was an opportunity to prove.

I want to impress that guy way up in the top. Who worked his ass off to come watch me? So guys, how do you feel about Mike? He said a lot of other things in the mix of that too. But how do you feel about Michael Jordan being brought back to talk about load management in today's NBA players? I just want to say, like, I remember how. were just like sweating when he was reading the release that

Mike was going to talk about load management and he was like oh god I don't like it I don't know I don't know and it was the same thing that I had when I saw the release for the first Michael Jordan clip that came out and I think this is great I want to I just made the decision and I want to hear Jordan talk about everything I don't care what it is I don't care if I necessarily agree with him but I think these interviews have been really really good because Michael Jordan is just great one at talking and also making you emotional while he talks. And,

you know, something about that camera angle that they have at his house. You can't see none of his eyes. They're like bright yellow. And it's something about him just the intensity that he brings to it, that he makes Mike Tariko wear Jordans and he's going to come in his house. I just love all of that. And I love seeing that from Mike.

I think that me and Howard are going to differ on the conversation when it comes to load management. I'm going to let him see the floor real quick to that, and then I will respond because we kind of had the pod before the pod. But the floor is yours, Howard, and then I'll respond based off what you say. Listen, in general, I think any Michael Jordan participation in today's NBA and just having his voiceback is a positive, right? Greatest player of all time by most people's measures. And, you know, ever since he retired, when he's gone into ownership, executive of a team, all these other things, like he's been pretty scarce. We don't hear from him often. And he's still really important to the game. Everybody handles their retirement and their post-playing careers

in general differently. But I do think there's a responsibility that comes with being the guy who most of us think is the goat. And I'm glad NBC has him. I'm glad Mike Tariko is doing those interviews. I think, and this is not a criticism of NBC or Mike Tarrico because there's a logistics aspect of this. And there's a managing Michael Jordan aspect of this. The unfortunate part about this series, from what I can gather so far, and I've not asked anybody this, it seems to me that they they just recorded one long segment in one fell swoop in the off season, and then we'll just bust out, you know, these three minutes segments over the course of the whole season, which is fine, but it means you can't be timely.

You can't check in on specific trends going on in season or guys breaking out. It's going to be more just Michael reflecting on things that are kind of evergreen, that are about this era or about his career or about whatever it may be. And I think every three-minute segment will be, will be captivating because it's Michael. Right? To Logan's point, like it's just, we just want to hear from him. That's, that's, it's great. But it's all in a vacuum and it's, and it's probably all going to have been pre-canned. But we'll have to be on watch to see if either of their outfits ever changes over the course of the next several months in these segments. I'm going to guess not. So that's fine. I think where I was cringing as Logan, not sweating, Logan, just, just, just, just wincing a little.

need to hear anybody else from the 90s and the 2000s way in on load management or whether they shoot too many threes today. I just don't fucking need to hear it. And by the way, that goes for everybody of my generation, too, because it's my generation that keeps doing this shit for the most part and the one older than mine. I don't need to hear it.

I don't need to hear why today's game isn't as great as the 90s or the early 2000s or the 80s or anytime else. The game is in great shape. It's a lot of fun. It is different than the game that you play. and that's okay. The game evolves. Deal with it. When it comes to load management, the problem I had with Michael being asked specifically other than knowing what his answer was going to be before he ever said it. And again, this is not a criticism of Mike Tarrico. I think this is a subject you almost have to ask Michael

Jordan. Michael played 82 games eight times, I think, yet eight seasons of 82 games plus an 81 and a 78. But that was emblematic of that era. That was indicative of how players approached it then. That's indicative of where sports science and sports medicine were then, which was like basically the dark ages compared to where we are today. Things have changed. And what I don't, where I don't want to hear from Michael on this or other people from that era is if you have not spoken to teams today, their front offices, their doctors, their, yes, their analytics guys. They're trainers. Everybody who's involved now with keeping players healthy or trying to get them back to help, if you don't have contact with teams now and you have not had those conversations, then you don't know. Michael Jordan knows way more about basketball and has forgotten more about the game than I will ever know.

And neither of us are sports scientists. But it's part of my job to talk to the researchers and the doctors and the trainers and everybody else who manage this stuff so that I can try to understand it as a reporter. And what I can tell you is, when Michael weighs in on this, he's doing it without having had those conversations. Because what he's missing is the game is different today. They're running far more miles than they did in his time because the pace of the game is way higher. They're having to cover more ground in the course of a game because in this three-point revolution era, everybody has to be able to guard out to the three-point line. And so you're having to move a lot more. Go back, folks, if you don't believe me and watch on YouTube the games from the 90s where they just, you know, you know, drag their butts up the court, get into a half court set, and then watch like Charles Barkler, Pat Ewing or somebody just like pound the ball on the block and back somebody down. Or they go, you know, Iverson takes somebody in an isolation on one side of the court because of illegal defense rules. Again, go look it up, young kids. Illegal defense rules. The other eight guys are on the other side of the court stuck there, standing around watching two guys go. You didn't have to expend nearly as much energy. You didn't have to change direction as much. There was a lot less wear and tear.

on you, there were fewer miles, all of that. And on top of that, I'm guessing that Michael hasn't read the story by Baxter Holmes from 2019 on ESPN.com in which he went really deep on how AAU ball has impacted today's NBA prospects that were by the time they get to the league, there's so much wear and tear that they are more susceptible to injury. All of which is to say is that load management while regrettable, and I agree with what Michael said about the guy up in the upper deck who paid good money and wants to see him play, LeBron has said the same at times. in the last several years. We all want these guys to play as much as possible,

but they are extremely expensive investments. This is their careers, not ours. And the teams have to do what they think is right by the player and also by themselves. And I'll just end on this note before I throw it back to you, Logan, because I've been filibustering here. But I thought it was really instructive that when they went back to studio to discuss this,

Carmelo, who was of a more recent vintage, certainly came up on Michael in his time and very briefly overlapped during Michael's wizard's years that I'd pretend didn't happen. Actually, they didn't. Carmelo came summer of 2003, and Mike... But he and T-Mack and Vince Carter, who were all in studio, are of the era of player

who came up watching Michael. And I think would lean more toward the, you play L-82 if you can. You play as many games as you can. You play every minute you can. But Carmelo and Tracy in particular, Vince was kind of went his own direction on this and was more in Michael's camp. Tracy and Carmelo both said, listen, there's actually reasons to do this.

And Tracy actually said, because, you know, T-Mack had, you know, debilitating injuries that shortened his career. And he said, I wish we had it in my time. If I were playing today, like my career would be longer. And I thought that was really instructive too, because these guys, you know, Team Act started in the 90s. Carmelo started in the early 2000s, but they both have an appreciation

for where the game has gone in terms of trying to take better care of the players. And I think they understood it in a more nuanced way than Michael did. And so I thought that was actually one of the strengths that that studio showed the other night was that they actually provided some of the perspective that I think Michael needed on this.

I think that's why, even if it is cookie cutter segments, I think that that's still going to, all the segments are going to do great because you have that back and forth between, you know, different eras of players. I agree with pretty much all the things that you said,

including, but I do agree with Michael, and this is why this is a problem that's kind of peaked up in the league right now with having more games is the fact that you're going to, it's going to be the norm, if it's not the norm already, that you're not going to see your favorite play.

player play when you want to see them play. And it's interesting just being on the West Coast. Like, we only get Janus once a year, right? We're only going to get Wimby once a year. And I mean, I don't know, you know, you got some rich-ass friends, Howard. I don't got that many rich friends. But, like, you know, people pay money. Like, as soon as the tickets come out and the schedule comes out in August,

they're paying for May and just to be in the upper deck, right? And I remember, I think it was, it was 2017 when it was Christmas 2017, LeBron versus Steph. And there was this big rollout. It was one of the first times that this came out, the load management thing. I think this was like the impetus of it, at least in a scouting report, not a scout report, and an injury report, excuse me, when LeBron said he wasn't going to play. And it came out on Christmas that he wasn't going to play against Steph. There were so many people that were disappointed in that building at Oracle Arena

because they were excited to see LeBron versus Step. And that's going to continue to happen. And if it wasn't a problem, the league wouldn't have put the 65 game rule in, right, for all NBA. It's something that they're going to have to deal with the science and then with the amount of games because fans are beginning to be turned off by this, right? Like this is an NBA specific problem because in the NFL, nine times of the day, 10, like, if they're not injured for real, for real, like, you're going to see Lamar Jackson in week eight, right? Like, they're going to play and you can all, not necessarily guarantee it because there's injuries everywhere, but there's always going to be an expectation that you're going to see

Lamar Jackson. You're going to see Pat Mahomes when he plays. You're going to see these stars, and that's just not as realistic in the NBA because not even because there's a real, no, let me cut that out. And not necessarily because, you know, there is an injury, but maybe somebody's resting. That's really disappointing for a fan that is like, forget Steph versus Janus or LeBron versus Janus or KD. What if KD comes to Charlotte once a year, which he does because he's in the Western Conference?

That's going to be a sad fan in Charlotte because they're not going to be able to see their favorite player. There's going to be, and even more of an accusation that the NBA doesn't care, about its fan base, right? I mean, you saw it a lot when Adam Silver said the things that he said about highlights. But I think there's going to come to an inflection point with this load management conversation if there already hasn't been one.

But that's the only thing that I have to push back on because this is a league-wide issue. And it's going to continue to be a league-wide issue because it's like, yo, why am I paying tickets are more expensive than they ever been with the hidden fees, with the secondary market to watch these stars. And if you spend your heart on money, we know how the economy is, we're not going to get into that right now. But you spend your hard on money to see these guys. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, this dude is resting right now? What the fuck?

Like, that's a really annoying thing to do. And then they're saying, I'm talking about specifically from the fan perspective. And then you're going to say, well, you know, we're pushing them and we're trying to get them ready for the playoffs. Like, and the average fan is like, fuck the playoffs, bro. Like, I can't afford that. I can't afford that. So that's going to continue to be a problem for the NBA who's already pushing back on the notion that they don't care about their fans. And that's going to continue to happen as this load management argument continues to permeate.

Like every serious issue in this league, there are competing interests that the NBA is trying to weigh against each other and balance. And this one's tough. They don't want to tell teams how to set up their rotation or how many guys to play or how many minutes they should. play or when they can rest or when they need to rehab or whatever else. The NBA does not want to be in the business of telling teams when to play their guys. On the other hand, if you are the Utah Jazz and you've sat Lowry Marketing with suspicious non-injuries, then you find the Utah Jazz to police that part. If you want teams to play their players more often, then you create the 65 game rule,

which acts as a little bit of a hedge or a floor to make sure, you know, try to ensure that teams don't abuse load management practices, right? So the NBA's trying, right? They keep tweaking their rules, their player participation policy that they rolled out a few years ago, addressed things like, if you're going to rest a guy on a back-to-back, rest him in the home game and not the road game. I think that was in the player participation policy. So to your Charlotte example with Durant, the idea is like, don't rest the guy, like rest him at home where those fans at least have a chance to see him more often. If he's going to a city that he's only going to be in once and most twice in the season, don't do it then.

Don't rest multiple starters or stars on the same night. Like the NBA has all these guidelines to try to mitigate this. And even as they acknowledge, like, yeah, there's some sports science behind this. The NBA has tried to push back on the sports science in recent years, but the teams don't buy it. The teams and their staffs are still doing it this way because they believe this is what's best for the health of their players. We also have to make a distinction between like straight up rest,

or a guy just like not wanting to play, which I don't think happens very often, versus injury management and guarding against fatigue that leads to injury or fatigue that leads to exacerbating an existing injury, that kind of stuff. And there's plenty of science behind that. So, you know, and again, like most of this is teams telling the players. When Jordan and others from other eras are like, oh, guys, you should go out there and play, the players 90-something percent of the time are not the ones saying, I don't want to play. So let's speak Frank, back in the day.

In the front office that are telling them, we're sitting you tonight. And Jordan's day, there was like one trainer and like one team doctor back of the day. There was not like a whole sports science team when Jordan played. Armies of them now. By the way, let's note one other thing about Jordan. The Jordan stands are going to come at me on this, but I don't care. Stay up, bro. Stay off blue sky on Twitter.

I've been trying to tell you this, bro. You know when you don't see the fans, when you fucking fling your fucking phone or delete the app? So fuck him. Michael Jordan Lode managed. He just did it differently. He retired in 1993 after nine seasons. He took nearly two years off before returning, played 17 games that year,

played four more full seasons, retired again in 1998, so now he's 13 seasons in, played two kind of wonky seasons at best at age 38, 39 for the Wizards. So across, so that's 14 plus seasons, not even a full 15, 14 plus seasons across 19 years,

1,072 games divided by 19, 56.4 games per year. Did I just factor in the years where he didn't play it all? Yes, I did. Do you think Jordan actually preserved his body a little bit during those interludes? See, but he wasn't actually preserving his body. Beck, you're not even getting the whole play. He was preserving his mind. Open your third eye.

He was stressed. He didn't want the life. Plus he was playing baseball for part of that too, so he wasn't really resting, I guess. But like, I would say this though, baseball, you know, there's a difference between a baseball body

and a, yeah, yeah, yeah. That guys can play baseball. Shout out to John Crook. I mean, Jordan, like, when he played, and especially in his prime years of the Bulls, he did play all 82 or as close to it as possible. So respect there. I'm being a little bit cheeky about this.

But it's not insignificant that Jordan over the course of his 14 plus seasons as an NBA player had these, these big spans off entirely because he kept retiring and then unretiring. And that helped get him to age 38, 39, even though he wasn't the same Jordan in Washington, you wouldn't be playing that if he had played straight through and never retired, he wasn't going to still be playing then.

There's no. Yeah, but it's not just Jordan saying that stuff, right, about this generation. There's also Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who played 20 years and played as many games as he could and had his body in fantastic shape. it's it's Carl Malone who's who was the iron man streak and continue to play and didn't get injured it's it's that crop of older guys who were like yo we kept our body in fantastic shape and we weren't getting injured so you should it should keep your body in fantastic shape and so you can play every game yes and what those guys are failing to realize is all the things I said earlier that

I don't need to repeat about how the game has changed and sports science has changed and that guys are arriving in the NBA already with their bodies in the more vulnerable position because of all the AAU ball they played. So it's just different. And there's no, and different. The frustrating thing is like, there's no putting the toothpaste back in the tube when it comes to AAU. It's a legitimately million dollar enterprise, a multi-million dollar enterprise, right? Like, that's like the next professional frontier is AAU basketball when you see it and just like, it's so professionalized now. We, like, it's, it's crazy. It's crazy. People go look up Baxter Holmes's story from ESPN in 2019. Um, like, if you,

don't understand what I'm referring to here or not sure about it. It's all about AAU and the miles put on guys, but also the specialization at a young age. It's all these things. And there's all kinds of people who are far more authoritative than I am in this story talking about their concern for the health of NBA players or NBA prospects by the time they arrive because of all this. This is a very, very real thing. And Adam Silver himself has said, like, this is something that they need to try to address, but it's hard at the NBA level to fix what's going on in youth sports. So, but this is a very real subject.

It's just one that doesn't get addressed very often because it's easier just to complain about load management and guys not playing. All right. That's a great discussion. Ready to go. But first, we have a little segment that we're bringing back on the Fridays called Real One of the Week where we shout out a person, entity, an organization that won the week.

this really Howard said he didn't stress and wasn't really sweating about the load management MJ conversation just a little nervous I think he was sweating for the ruin of the week

which is why I'm going to give him the first opportunity to give the fans his ruin of the week. Who is it? And how much does you stress making this decision about this very supposed fun award?

Logan knows how seriously I take this. take all things on this pod and that I will not do a single segment about anything without researching it first. Like, if Logan said we're talking about Twinkies tomorrow, I'm probably going to like the Wikipedia page. I might visit the Twinkie's

plant. Where is the Twinkies plant? I have no fucking idea. Look at him nervous. Look at him nervous. That's what we go through all the time. Sounds like something to be in like in Pennsylvania somewhere near like, like Hershey, Pennsylvania's out there. They got the chocolate plant. Like the Twinkies plant seems like it should just be like right next door, shouldn't it? Cliff can tell me.

Go ahead and do yours and I'll let you know. Hold on. Go ahead. This one was actually easy because on Wednesday night, I was fortunate enough to be able to attend the screening of Mount Mutumbo documentary that's coming out now about DeKalb Motumbo, his life, his humanitarian work as well as his basketball career. And the film was fantastic. I don't know where people can see it or will be able to see it, but keep an eye out for it. I highly, highly, highly recommend it. So my real one of the week is combo here, DeKembe Motumbo. rest in peace and the director-producer, Dina Kreno, I don't know if I'm pronouncing her last name correctly. I didn't catch the pronunciation when they introduced her, but Dina Kreno, director-producer

Matt Matumbo. This film, it's warm, it's moving, it's funny, it's got a bunch of really great people in interviews with DeKembe before he died. You know, we lost him a year ago to brain cancer September of 24, but they got DeKembe for a bunch of sit-downs. They got Patrick Ewing, Alonzo morning, Alan Iverson, Kim Ilijuan, Masayu Jiri, Jeff Van Gundy, Larry Brown, Adam Silver. DeKembe had just an incredible, incredible life, incredibly impactful life. I don't know that we'll ever see anybody quite like him again, just in terms of the total impact. Great basketball career, Hall of Famer, but the things that he has done in his Native Democratic Republic of Congo where he built hospitals and built schools

and has just done so much to try to uplift everyone and just a great dude. I didn't cover him day to day. I only met him a couple of times, but you see these scenes from his playing days like, you know, joking around with Yao Ming when they were together in Houston

and everybody, like, no one says a bad word about the Kimi Matumbo who's ever encountered him. Just a great all-around guy. And so as it turns out, Logan, this was an easy call for me this time. Wow, a couple notes here. The New York premiere precedes the film Mount Metambeau's theatrical release from November 1st,

and it's going to be in select AMC theaters across the United States. And second, the Twinkies are a part of the hostess brand, which is headquartered in Lenoxa, Kansas. According to Wikipedia. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying. Damn, brother. Let's not and say we did.

Damn, bro, I feel like that was a real heavy ruin of the week. So I feel a little nervous giving my ruin of the week. But I'm going to do it anyway. Fuck it. The spirit, my spirit animal for this season of real ones. Miss Caraboo, not the two. She put out a, she's been the soundtrack in my last two months. I have sent all of her content to V.

to Cliff. She put out a track, a little snippet of a track that is bonkers last night. She's one of my favorite rappers out of Atlanta, her and Anisia,

and two people that Howard Beck has no clue exist and probably will never listen to their music. But cariboon after two, is he ready? Is he ready?

Cliff, is Beck ready for this? Which songs did I send Beck? Splash Bros? Splash Bros. Yeah, Splash Bros. Because he can relate to it. Splash Bros.

Like, you know basketball. They kind of, give some references in there. It's a little tie-in. They say they're like Stefan Clay. So, yeah, you can relate to it. They're like Stefan Clay. They're my favorite duos, but I have gravitated towards cariboo, Kibu, not the two, because I'm Logibu, not the two.

And that is my real one of the week. Yeah, it's great. All right, we got to go. That's been another edition of Real Ones. Like I said, I am Logie Boo, not the two, aka Logan Murdoch, aka Low, Lo, the Flow, Flow, from the OO. And that is Howard Beck,

who needs to get the fuck out of Amy Polar Studio. So that's been another edition of Real Ones mailbag at gmail.com, real ones mailbag at gmail.com, real ones mailbag at gmail.com. We are going to be answering your mailback questions on Tuesday.

It's going to be me and Howard. Mother fucking Beck. See you then. All the shits. Bye. What's the 21 years, older, and present in select states for Kansas.

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