The Ringer NBA Show - Western Conference Confidence Scale | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos are here to tier the Western Conference. They start at the bottom and work their way up to the best teams in the conference. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Bill Simmons. I am thrilled to announce our newest YouTube channel. It's called Ringer Movies. If you're a fan of our movie coverage here at The Ringer, then you're in luck because every episode of The Rwatchables and The Big Picture, now on YouTube. Like Bill said, Ringer movies will feature full episodes of my show, The Big Picture, the Rewatchables,

as well as special live episodes, deep dives into movie history and a bunch of other fun stuff featuring other movie-loving Ringer personalities. Search Ringer movies on YouTube and Experience the Joy, Chris Ryan impersonating Wayne Jenkins on camera. group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me. Rob Mahoney, big Waz, both in L.A., but not together. How does this happen? That's my fault. It's my fault. Was, I copped to it. I should have given you the appropriate notice. Look, getting into the office is an ordeal. I already dragged Isaiah in here to help me just to get the studio up and running. But I think we're going to get it set for later this week. I think we're going to have a proper group chat commune,

which is to say Justin will not be invited because he'll be in Portland. Also, I still believe in the principle of separate but equal and it applies here. Wow. Meaning that you just don't have to go into the office. Yeah, so good. So if I don't, you don't as well. Okay, okay. Okay.

Yeah, we'll make it in together. We'll all be together yet again, perhaps after the holidays. We'll figure something out. Definitely. But good to see everyone. Has everyone digested from Thanksgiving? having everyone feeling good, feeling spry? No. Are you?

No, in fact, I'm still feeling so sluggish to the point where I've started to look into different ways to be healthier. What would you guys say if I joined a karate club? Do you think that would be a cool look for me? I think that would be an incredible look. Hey, man, that's better than CrossFit. I'll tell you that much. I've tried that before.

And let me tell you, I flunked out within weeks. It is such a cold. It's just, well, one, it is a call. Two, it is not made for people our age. I'm sorry. Like, that's a young person's game. Those are the type of things you go to after you've already been a regular working out guy. Like, you take it to the next level.

I tried to go from zero to 100 and it did not work. Just didn't work. But I think karate could be a good look for me. I just like got the moves. Like, if you mess with me on the pod, then I'll just like give you a rock bottom, you know? What is the rock bottom? The rock bottom is the rocks move, which is a wrestling move and not karate, but Justin is mixing metaphor, so we're good.

It's close enough. But yeah, I think I think me being able to whoop somebody's butt in case they ever went at me. I think that'd be a good tool in my tool chest. That would be useful. And Justin Verrier, karate guy, is just something that needs to happen. We need it to happen. Pretty good. All right.

I'll investigate and check back. in with you guys. All right, why don't we get to the matter at hand here? We are doing the Western Conference in tiers. We're calling this the Western Conference Confidence Scale. We did this last year around this time, and I went and looked back at that dock. And it was funny because I think we only did the top, I think, like 10 or so teams. We cut it off based on like the teams that were in the mix, basically. This time, we have to do the entire conference because as we're looking at the standings right now. There are four games that separate number one, the Oklahoma City Thunder with the Spurs in 10th. But then like you have the Chimberwolves, the Kings, the Blazers are

even in the mix here. The West is even wackier than it typically is. It's a weird bunch. And we want to start bottom up, right? I think, I think so. There is a definitive team that's going to be at the bottom of the pile here. But I'm curious for you guys overall, how many tiers do you even have to begin with? How many buckets are we talking about? I have, let's see, one, two, three, four, five tiers. But one of the tiers is kind of just ceremonial. It's not like an actual like, oh, this team is like a cut above or cut below, whatever. It's just a ceremonial tier that I've given the team.

And I'm going to let the names of these tiers go as the podcast goes along. Consider us teased, was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, realistically, it's. four, but I did five. Okay. Waz is a true calmness giving names to his tears. Rob and I, unfortunately, didn't put the

extra effort in to this one. But I have five as well. Rob, how many do you have? Also five. So we're in perfect alignment here on the pod today. Didn't plan anything today, including the studio space, but we're all right. Other than that, yeah. Also, you're not a real blogger, potter

in the NBA world until you do tear talk. If you're not tearing, you're not serious. And so today was, it was long overdue. That should be the subhead to this pod when they put it on the website. If you're not, you're not serious unless

you have tier names. That's right. That's true. All right. Let's start from the bottom then. Tier 5. I think the big question here is how many teams do you guys have in the bottom tier? Because I have dose. I have two. Okay. I've got three.

Yeah. Yeah, I've got three. Oh, okay. But also, if someone wants wanted to tell me that the jazz belong in their own tier at the bottom of this. I would, I would be on board with it. That's what I had going into today or going out of last night. They deserve it.

You know, like the offense has been looking a little better lately, I will say for Utah. John Collins, of all people, has started to actually turn a corner for them in a way that is semi-meaningful, but they are just such a young and still bad team that's going to lose a lot of games in a way that-

Purposely bad. purposely bad. And as you alluded to, Justin, teams like Portland, I think it's just been more competitive overall. A team like New Orleans is so hurt. We don't really know what they are when they're healthy,

even if they could be healthy. Why do we think they're going to be healthy at any point? I'm not saying we do. But to me, that is my bottom tier, those three teams. Pelicans, Trailblazers, jazz. That's my group. It's kind of cross the bow to us Portlanders.

That's right. We don't take your outfit seriously. I would say give the Blazers some time. They'll get their sense to their senses and start losing at jazz level proportions. I think, and yeah, the Pelicans, I have no reason to think that anything is going to be better anytime soon. And that's the reason why I named this tier the Cooper Scoopers. Oh. I like Cooper Scooper.

Get it? because these guys are Yeah, we got it. There's a lot of nuance there, Wise. I think you should walk us through it. It's a reference to Doiste Aski, yeah. Hey, man,

shout out my Trotskyites out there, right. Shouts to Russia. But, no, yeah, I just think all three of these teams are going to be in serious contention for, you know, last place. in the West, all of them.

And I don't think any one of these three teams are going to seriously threaten for the plan over the long term. And so that's why I have them all in the same tier here. So I have two of them. I left the Blazers for tier four, in part because they've been pretty frisky. And I'm like, I'm trying to fight against my biases here. But like, we're coming off a weekend in which they beat the Kings, a team that, frankly, we'll be coming up here pretty shortly.

And also gave the Mavs a run for their money. Like, Luca was coming back. they didn't have a lot of players, but they really had to fight to win that game down the stretch. I came in which no team played defense. But like, they're constantly in a lot of these games, even if they are losing. I agree with you guys at some point. They're probably going to trade off certain pieces, especially if there aren't a lot of sellers in the market. I think the Blazers have a lot of players that would be attractive on other teams. And their goal should be to scoop or poop the scoop for Cooper, whatever we're doing here. Cooper scoopers, Justin. Okay, Cooper scoopers. But I,

I think right now I would put them in tier four, leaving me with the jazz and the New Orleans Pelicans in my tier five because this was going to be a jazz tier for me. But then I watched part of yesterday's game against the Knicks in which the Pelicans scored 10 points in the first quarter, 28 at half against the Knicks team that we've talked long about their defense being. One of the defense is in the league. Yep. I thought they showed a little bit of better effort against Memphis earlier in the weekend. The Pelicans. I was like, oh, maybe the next. they might be spunky. They got some of their guys back. Murray, McCollum, Murphy. They had enough there. I was ready to talk about Eve Missy again, but I think we more need to talk about whether

or not this franchise is a goddamn mess again, because I don't know how they get out of this downward spiral, even if they do get guys back, because it seems like, even like Zion, he has a whole mess. Brandon Ingram is signing with clutch. I think this could get worse before it gets better. Well, they're one in 14 in their last 15 games. To To Waz's point, like, we're just getting to the stage where even if they do get healthy, it just doesn't matter. It's going to be a little bit too late relative to a field that's this competitive. They're not going to have enough time. So it's great that Dejante Murray is back. It's great that C.J. McCollum is back. Zion is still out. Brandon Ingram, in addition to the change in representation, you mentioned Justin, out of the

lineup right now. They can't win these games. They just have no shot in so many of the games that they participate in. And so they're absolutely deserving of being in some bottom tier or another, maybe distinguished from the jazz only by the fact that they have actual good talent on their roster right now that's ready to play at an NBA level, it just doesn't fit and it's not healthy and it's not working. This morning I woke up, you know, I'm doing my regular NBA media diet this morning, you know, getting ready, loading up on information for the pod. One of the headlines that scrolls across is should the pelicans get rid of something, meaning cut them, get them out of here.

This contract has such loose guarantees. It was built as a contract to be able to get out of if the management in New Orleans saw fit. And that's where we're at with this team. One in 14 in their last 15, thinking about getting rid of the guy who was easily their best player, but who cannot stay on the court. It's miserable up in New Orleans right now. I want to take this a step further. I think it's time to sell the franchise.

The Benson's had a good run here. They can't get out of this spiral. I know a lot of this is Zion inflected and he's a different beast because his issues are different than the typical superstar issues. But they've had a good run here. It just isn't working. We need another ownership group that isn't tied to the Saints ownership so that this team can exist outside of that.

Get someone that's going to keep them in New Orleans. I don't want them to leave. None of that stuff. But we need a different ownership. This is just not working. I mean, it's been time, to be honest with you. They're one of these teams that's been in the like, will they ever go up for sale cycle for exactly this reason?

They need a change literally at the top of the org chart. As it stands, it's, you know, even if you did make those changes, it doesn't resolve the fact that all these guys are just getting hurt all the time and that this franchise is cursed and what the, like, the arena is built on. Like, there's some kind of land concern that has cursed the entire franchise and I don't know exactly what it is. will they ever get better? I'm at the point with this group

where I can't even see it anymore. I can't even see what a good outcome for this Pelican season looks and feels like. And it's just crazy because the amount of talented players on this roster, up and down this roster, you just read off names and like guys who I'm just like, yo, these guys would get quality minutes on all of the contendent teams in the NBA right now.

They have, like, I would say eight guys. that would be rotational pieces on the real NBA teams, no less than that. And there's still a dumpster fire. And it's hard, like, you know, part of me, I feel like a lot of times management types get to skate. You know, David Griffin, let's face it, he's a media darling. He did his time in the media.

He has a lot of friends in our profession. Nobody's going to kill David Griffin. Myself included, like he obviously is like a pretty smart basketball guy. It just feels like in for sure. structurally, New Orleans is just broken as a franchise. And it just seems like a huge, just a bigger mess than, you know, even a GM. And like, I echo you guys' sentiments that the Benson's, man, they're just a poisonous, you know, influence on the outcomes that these guys are able to garner.

No difference than the Rinesdorfs and no difference than some of the other horrible owners across our league. So the Pelicans, go ahead. No, go ahead. The Pelicans are completely deserving of being here. The Jazz, as we said, are just too young to be any higher than this. I want to hear more about the case for the Blazers as a Tier 4 team, Justin, because they are one of the worst teams in the entire league by point differential.

They do hang around and they are competitive, but games do get away from them. Talent-wise, it's not like they're exactly killing it out there. And the best version of the Blazers is, as we alluded to, in terms of how their season goes and their trade market goes, probably one that gets worse, probably one that prioritizes, like Donovan Klingen this season, you know,

for all of his limitations in very specific matchups. Like, we know what he can do. We know what kind of shot blocker he can be. But like, you need to feed some of these younger guys even heavier minutes

than they're playing now. Yeah, I guess I'm looking at this more as a snapshot of now rather than leaning into the future as much as perhaps you guys are. I don't necessarily disagree. The one thing I would push back on

is I think they are regular. in a lot of games that they shouldn't be in. For instance, like the games against the Rockets, a team that we're going to talk about later on in the spot is perhaps being a Tier 1 or Tier 2 team. They're going toe to toe to toe with them. They're going to toe to toe with the Kings. They're going toe to toe to toe with the maps.

They're constantly, like, measuring up to these teams, but often losing, in part because of like an avalanche in the third quarter. That's happened to them a good amount. But I have to say that they have been in a lot of games they shouldn't be in. And for that reason, I think that they deserve, to be a step above because if they were to hold this team together, I think they would be on the same level as, for instance, the Kings, who I also have in Tier 4.

That's my Tier 4. I have the Kings in the Trailblazers. Do you guys have anybody else? I have a much more robust Tier 4. Yeah, for me, Tier 4 is the Kings. I also have the Spurs in that tier. I also have the Clippers in that tier. And I have the Minnesota Timberwolves in that tier.

Wow. As I mentioned last week, like, I am very concerned. about the overall state of the wolves right now. And I'm completely open to them moving up this list over the course of the season. And there's still plenty of time to resolve a lot of different things. But they better get working on it. Like they have to actually do those things. Based on what the I completely agree with Rob,

I called this my playing players. This is great. Yeah, clips, spurs, and kings are. in this tier. The wolves, by what they've put on the actual floor this season, meaning the 2024-25 season, they're in this tier. It's just I have faith that ultimately the talent, the overall talent on this roster is going to win out. I believe in the coaching. I think they're going to figure it out. I like that Aunt Edwards is pissed off. And he's like, he's like saying, like, we got to get this right. He's the leader. I think over the

course of the year they're going to figure it out. So I give them the benefit of doubt and put them in my next tier. But what they put on the floor, make no mistake about it, is squarely in this Clippers, Spurs, Kings tier of things in the West. In many times, like many cases, I would say it's actively worse than that because it's more depressing given the talent. It's more of a disappointment relative to like the Spurs plugs Stefan Castle into their starting lineup and take off.

And there's this incredible bright spot. the Clippers having this defense-first culture and rallying around the guys that they've been able to keep together and kind of duct tape into this really like versatile and effective smothering approach on that end of the court. Like, I think that's a great story.

The wolves are a terrible story. They're a terrible watch. They look like a collection of players that don't know how to play together and don't particularly want to be playing together. And that feels like a pretty big problem to me. Like they narrowly beat the Clippers to stave off a five-game losing streak

leading into our recording of this pod. Their offense has been horrible lately. Ant can't get anywhere inside the arc because everything is jammed up. Randall's shot looks pretty busted right now. Jaden McDaniels doesn't look like a useful NBA player at the moment. Those are huge problems. And the kinds of huge problems that, yes, a great month from Jaden McDaniels would go a long way.

Sure, Randall's shot has historically always been up and down. But there's something about the overall shape of this group that I just don't think is going it worked that well. And that's going to be the case so long as Julius Randall is a really prominent part of it. Yeah, I mean, one of the bright spots, the other night in the loss to OKC, Rob Dillingham got in the game and basically turned everything around. They were even able to play some effective defense against OKC. And I just feel like there's just different combinations that they can still play with. I wonder, again, this is why I was really like down on these guys being anywhere close to the outfit that they were last year.

And that was because they had to, when you acquire Julius Randall and he has the sort of cachet and, you know, the veteran sort of, I guess, reputation, you can't just say, look, look, Julius Randall, we know you're looking for a new deal. We know you're a highly respected, you know, player in this league. we're going to treat you like some other guy, maybe bring you off the bench, maybe do put you in the start and like jerk you around essentially because I know they weren't going to be able to do that. I thought they would have difficult times, but I think there's still time to like massage

these things and make them look so much better than they have so far. Yeah, so the athletic had a recent story basically suggesting that the instability with roles might be playing a factor with the wolves and part of that is just the contract situations. A lot of guys on short term contracts, guys. looking for new contracts, guys, who aren't signed as long-term as they were in previous seasons.

I would push back on that slightly. Maybe that's something disrupting chemistry, but if we're playing fun with NBA lineups and the lineup data, I thought this was interesting. Among the lineups with 50 minutes or more, so we're starting from a low baseline. The best lineup in the NBA right now

is Mike Conley, Dante DiVincenzo, Nikil Alexander Walker, Oz Reid, Rudy Gobert. And why is that interesting? Because it doesn't have our guy, Aunt Edwards, doesn't have our guy, Jaden McDaniels, doesn't have our guy, Julius Randall. If I were to put a spotlight on the guys

that I've found most perplexing this season, it probably has been those three guys. Those are also the juice that it's going to make this team work. But it has been Ant, perhaps, not taking the leap forward to superstardom as expected. Jayne McDaniels looks a hot mess most of the time, as Rob alluded to, And then Randall has just been an uneasy fit for this team.

And so this is like almost team like easygoing. Like these are like the five guys that I know can count on to be stable, whereas those other guys are the floor and the ceiling. It just hasn't necessarily all worked out to where they've added the pop that they needed to. But having said that, I still have more faith in this team, which is why I have them in tier three as opposed to tier four just because like they're still in the mix. They just need to have like one to two good weeks.

And this could be an accelerant. like the team that we all expect it. That is the state of the West right now. But as you mentioned, Justin, the standings are packed so tight. One or two good weeks can dramatically shake this thing up and take a team basically from being a playoff lock to fighting for the play in. It's not very forgiving out there. You know, if a major contributor for your team has a serious injury, all of a sudden your whole season could be in jeopardy or at least this part of the season. And yeah, by extension, the wolves, if they do get it together, are in a position to climb fast.

I think what I'm concerned about is this is a team that Randall accepted should know how to play together, should know how to make some of these lineups work. And even some of the non-randall lineups just haven't had like the competitive verve to really hang in these games and really put up a fight against high-level teams. It's been such a disappointing start for Minnesota that I get why you guys give them the benefit of the doubt. And look, if anything, the tier exercise is all about who do we give the benefit of the doubt to? Who do we think is a little better than their current circumstances? is who do we think can turn the corner? Who are we waiting to get all their guys back? I think Minnesota is a perfectly reasonable candidate for something like that.

I've just been so bummed out watching them that I'm going to park them right here in my fourth tier and I'm going to feel okay about it. Yeah, the one thing that jumped out to me too when I was watching them against the clippers the other night, I think it was on Friday, is that the clippers also have a bunch of young guys that are playing like this is their last dying breath. Like I was watching Jordan Miller just bust his ass trying to navigate screens or trying to get around. and I was like, who on the wolves is doing that?

Because they've tightened the rotation to eight, sometimes nine, but these are all mostly proven guys who perhaps are playing for a next contract, but they've already, like, solidified who they are in the NBA. Nikola Alexander Walker, Prime Example, needs a new contract, but we know who that guy is when he's playing right. And so it's like actually having younger guys to add the, dare I say, verve, a word that we love on this podcast, I think helps in the regular season just get you through those.

those drudgery matchups when it's like the day after Thanksgiving and we just need to like win this game in the frigid cold in Minnesota. So I actually have in my third tier a lot of teams in that similar mix. I have the Lakers, Clippers, Spurs, Timberwolves as my third tier. But was you had, did you have clippers in your fourth tier? Yeah, they're in the fourth tier for me. They're going to make the play in. But I think ultimately, I don't think they're, I don't think. I don't think, anybody in my top two tiers would have any trouble dispensing with them in the playoffs, right? I think they'd be an easy-ass team, the guard, and I get it. They've gained this defensive sort of identity collectively, but I don't think they'd

beat some real juggernaut in the playoffs. No disrespect to Zoop and, you know, the rest of of these guys, but like, I just don't, I don't see that for them. And maybe that's because I just perennially don't give a damn about what the clippers are doing. That might just be my own bias peeking through. But yeah, that's where I see the clippers.

They're tricky because I could see them if they did make the playoffs giving someone a tough series, but not one that they were ever really in range of winning necessarily. Just one you really have to fight for every game. And there are teams that they come up against who do have trouble guarding them. The Denver Nuggets,

case and point. It seemed to have a lot of trouble guarding the clippers. We can talk through that as we get a little higher on this list perhaps. Overall, I just think it's a good story

and a team that doesn't have a lot of upward mobility unless you want to bank on Kauai Leonard, which on this podcast we don't, generally speaking. So if you believe in that sort of thing,

great. If not, they're a stout hard playing team and stout hard playing teams might just cap out in a Western conference is this competitive somewhere in this range.

Yeah. If there was a picture of league average in the NBA dictionary, it might be the clippers who play hard on defense are a defense first team and they have enough offense to make do. I think James Hardin is coming around. He played very well against the nuggets the other night. He's talking about how he's readapting to his old role and that's why you're seeing him play better. Not sure I totally buy that. Also, can I give you the old guy take of the day, which is seeing Hardin and Russell Westbrook embrace each other was like what is wrong with? the NBA. The fact that they've teamed up and not teamed up and teamed up again and not teamed up again, but that they still love each other. There isn't any animosity between them. I actually think

is what's fucked about this link. More toxicity in this damn league, please. No friendships. Yeah. For the love of God. I thought you were going to say the old guy take was that you felt a twinge of something seeing them. No, Rob. We want these guys to be fighting over

women and gambling debt. Are you kidding me? We don't want these guys. to be friendly. Screw that. There's no black eyes on airplanes. I don't want to be a part of it. I'm sick of the camaraderie.

That's my MBA. I'm trying to think of the other teams that we haven't talked about here. Spurs are very clearly a tier three team to me. The fact that they kind of slop walk in that game. So you see the Spurs as being

apart from the Kings and the, well, you think they're a clippers level. I think so I see I have Kings and. Totally. Yeah, I think Kings and Blazers are tier four for me.

So this is where I'm kind of departing from where you guys are. But I think my third tier is Lakers, clippers, Spurs, Tim Wolves, those to me are all teams kind of in the same mix where it's like, they're good, but there's something amiss here that they need to figure out. They're kind of low playing teams as opposed to the Kings and Blazers, who I don't think will even be in the play in mix ultimately. I think the spurs have been pretty goddamn good. We're talking about starting lineup.

data, your number one lineup with a bullet is that starting lineup with your guy, Stefan Castle. It just seems like there's a lot to like there. And I have to say, can we shout out to Harrison Barnes real quick? Because we talked about Chris Paul being like a stabilizer for the spurs, especially with that first unit. Barnes is classically the guy who all always has to make do at the end of a shot clock with the possession. Like there was one game I was watching where Stefan Castle tried to dribble drive, got stonewalled for like 10 seconds, and then passed it to Vassel, did the same exact thing. And then Barnes with like two seconds on the shot cock just made like a simple basketball move and scored. And it's just like this is the guy, the adult in the room just like cleaning up for the kids after they've screwed up. I just think it works in a way that I'm encouraged by. And as we kind of have been talking about, Wemby seems like figuring out the offensive stuff quickly. He did it last year with defense. This year we were fretting over what was going to happen offensively. The three point shooting was a mess. Slowly coming around to the fact that like he might have once again just. just gotten to the second level quicker than we thought.

And so I think the spurs are, like I predicted going into the season, a clear-cut play-in team. Okay. There is. You're cheering them to validate your previous takes. I see it. So here's what I did with my tough playoff outs and playing players. It's like all, these are all playoff-off-worthy teams. And if they were in the east, they'd be cruising. Oh, God. The wolves would be the five seed. And, you know, non-home court advantage playoff teams types, right? However, I don't think any of these teams realistically can make the finals. So that's where I cut it off.

Like, I don't see any world in which the Rockets, Lakers, Wolves, Clippers, Spurs, Kings make the finals. But I could see all of them in some order, you know, being in the, the playoffs and giving people decently tough go of it. The teams that I thought were going to be tougher at the top of that. But all of them, you know, playoff kind of guys and LeBron and AD, like, they can give it the good old college try against the team. But the Lakers, I don't think can make the finals. Same with the Rockets.

Same with the Wolves, right? So Rockets, Tier 3 for you? Tier 3. Oh, yeah. I think they're going to be miserable. Yeah, I think the Rockets are going to just, and this might be tiered. be, you know, I made this list last night. It might be my bias from watching them play OKC last night.

Like these guys are going to be miserable to play against. They are freaking. What happened in that game? I like one. I like how connected the group is. Like these guys really like each other. They really play for each other. And I agree.

But like, how do you say all that and feel all that and only put them in tier three is my question? because I only have five tiers. But you wouldn't have the number two team in the West that's half a game behind the Thunder who they just beat last night in tier two. No, they're too young to make the finals. I get it. Like, I get it. It's nice what they're doing.

And I think they're going to be really annoying to play against in a playoff setting because of their combination of youth and tenacity. But, you know, guys like Fred Van Vliet and Derek. I say Dylan Brooks as like sort of veteran, you know, in Fred Van Ville's case, calming presence. Dylan Brooks has a galvanizing figure. But like, I don't think they're a more serious champion, like to get to the finals than Suns, Grizzlies, Warriors, Denver, or Dallas. And obviously not O'KZ. I just don't, I like what they're doing.

You think this team could go to the finals, Rob? I'm not ready to go that far. I think for me... That's why they're lower in my tier. That's it. They can't make the finals to me. For me, it's less about can the Rockets make the finals. It's about all the other teams you listed,

most of which I am not convinced can make the... Like, the Golden State Warriors are not making the NBA finals. I don't see that happening. I give them a better chance than the Rockets. Absolutely not. I agree with Waz's logic, but for me, that leads to tier two. Like, that's keeping them from Tier 1 because they have been such a very good regular season team,

but I just don't believe in them. down the road when it's superstar, there I say, nut crunching time. Like who they're turning to because Jalen Green's not that guy. The offense has been pretty bad. They're trying to Al-Rinchangoon is not that guy. Who's cooking in overtime lately? What are we

talking about? Our guys protecting the rim, he's showing up in extra periods, he's doing it. Very likely things to carry through the course of the season. I think the sticking point for me was the offense for the wolves in addition to some of the like the superstar, lack of a

The fact that they're out there hunting not so quietly for the rockets. Yeah, for the rockets, excuse me, for that superstar, like, suggests pretty clearly that they agree that they need that sort of guy. They have the perfect compliments around them. Like, God, we can list four to five role players that, like, we love more than any other role player on any other team. They're actually worse offensively than they were last year. So they're 16th as opposed to 20th in offense, but their offensive rating is actually

worse last year when we fretted so much about whether or not. they'd have enough offense in order to balance out the rock solid defense. And so something's not adding up here. Well, part of what's not adding up is Jalen Green. Yeah. Yeah. It's just not working. He had a spark when he started, but now he's just garbage.

That spark has been smothered out. Regular season. Yeah. It's been very, very tough. I mean, there's a reason why, like, when he goes off the court and, you know, the energy guys come in, everything changes for those lineups. everything feels more kinetic. Everything feels more productive in a lot of those cases.

Like, Jalen Green brings something to the Rockets that almost no one else on that roster can when he's rolling and right. That is too infrequent for the team that the Rockets can be right now. And this is why you get into the superstar chasing conversations. This is why you get into like neck deep in the trade machine. They are a roster that deserves that kind of swing. By the way, and that is the other difference to me between the Rockets and all the teams that I put ahead of them,

these teams have superstars, bona fide superstars on them. Superstars who, you know, KD and Steph Curry, not definitively in their prime in their cases, but goddamn, they're pretty freaking close to it.

You know, and there certainly had the capacity to be a lot more dominant on offense than anybody the Rockets can throw out there, man. You know, no disrespect to Alperin-Shangoon. just not that kind of play.

And so that's why for me, just being sober-minded, even though yesterday's game was so freaking exhilarating to watch, Dylan Brooks just like, he just makes everything more fun and more intense than it has any business being. I just ultimately, they're going to be a nice scrappy playoff outfit. Y'all not going to the conference finals. You're not going to the finals. I'm not seeing it for the Rockets.

Sorry, Rockets fans. It probably will not happen in that sense. But I do think they can beat any contender on the board in a series. And I say that inclusive of OKC, right? Like that is a matchup that the Rockets, I think, could be well suited to. Ultimately, the Thunder to me are, spoiler alert, the defining Tier 1 team in the Western Conference. But if you were going to tailor make a roster to challenge them and they could kind of play their style but also take the Thunder out of it, the Rockets feel like a perfect roster to do that.

It's a very good matchup against the Thunder in the Rockets favor. But before we get too ahead of ourselves, Rob, you want to go? We're way out of sorts. Yeah, yeah. Rob, do you want to do your tier three just so we're all on the same page here? My tier three is Warriors, Lakers, Sons. Warriors?

Yes. I think you have, okay, go ahead. I think the bottom is kind of falling out on their offense a little bit right now in a way that. Smoking mirrors. This is the thing. I think there's this misconception that when you have a deep team,

it insulates you and makes your team more sustainable over the course of a regular season. And there are ways in which that is true. But depth doesn't always hold up to scrutiny and ego and the trials of the regular season, and you're already starting to hear the murmurs coming out of Golden State

as far as role and how much usage and responsibility. And I'm being tapped into in these ways, but not those ways. It's the night. nightmare scenario for a 10-man rotation, an 11-man rotation. Guys are already getting pulled in and out of the lineup to try to figure out what can work with this group. And so, yeah, the bones of it makes sense.

Overall, having a deep team is great when you can keep all the balls in the air at the same time. But those balls are getting dropped. And I think overall, this is a team that came out of the gate, white-hot, over-performed. We all got on board. We've loved watching them play. Stylistically, they're very fun, especially when they're winning. I just don't think it's going to last.

And so ultimately, like, this feels like a reasonable expectation for a team that coming into the year we were relatively down on. And we had a lot of questions about how they were going to fill out the rotation. Turns out they have a lot of ways to fill out their rotation, but not in a stable capacity right now. So for me with the Warriors, it's, I think their offense has a capacity to hit another gear when they're not doing Steve Kerr's beautiful game thing and just spamming Steph Curry. But they're not doing that because of one age. And two, like, you just don't want to use this guy on a wear and tear basis in the regular season just being like, yo, let's make Stefan to Trey Young right now.

But I think in a playoff series, they could do that and their offense would be way better for it. I truly do believe that. That's why I look at the Warriors a little bit. I understand the struggle of them being like, yo, we're empowering everybody that have their chance to run the offense and get touches.

And it's just like, that shit can't actually work for real against the best teams. But I think in a playoff series, like, Steph would just have the ball way more. And these guys would have way more defined roles orbiting around what Steph and his gravitational pull does. And so that's my case for putting them in a finals,

albeit very slim chance. But I'm like, shit, man. Like, watching the rest of these guys, I don't think like Golden State should be quivering in their boots if they somehow faced the Grizzlies or Dallas or Denver in the playoffs. I don't feel that way. I haven't seen that. It's too many guys.

It's way too many guys to the point where they played 13 guys in the first 14 minutes the other night against the Phoenix Suns, including Pat Spencer, who played eight minutes against the Suns. I think they're already starting to ask questions about it in the media. Steph had as pointed a comment as Steph can really have because he's, so controversy-averse where he's like, yeah, I don't know.

Maybe we should look at it, which is Steph basically being like, stop playing so many fucking guys. Are you kidding me, Pat Spencer? I think you guys are right. The offense is kind of non-existent outside of not only step,

but the Steph-Dremon combination to where, I think earlier in the season, to Rob Smok and Mirrors point, there was a lot of buddy healed just shooting over his gourd and a lot of Jonathan Kaminga being able to score against second units. Neither of those things are happening right now.

So where is he? the other offense outside of Steph. I don't know where it's going to come from because if anything, those guys are defaulting to what I think of them, whereas I just don't think either of them is very consistent or going to be a source of consistent offense for this team. If you had the optimist case, I would say that the defense is legit.

I don't think it is identity legit in the way that it is for the rockets. I don't think it's going to buoy them most of, and the way that it has for some of these other teams that are defense first, like the wolves last year, for instance. I don't think the worries were that. But I think they're going. good enough defensively, as long as as Draymond is healthy, as long as there are enough

of these perimeter harassing defenders out there that they can win more regular season games. But I think we all kind of net out in the same place where we think Warriors are good but not finals good, which is why I have them tier two as opposed to one or three. Interesting. I think ultimately maybe I stratified out my top

tiers a little bit more than you did. And that filter down teams like the Warriors, filtered down teams like the Lakers, who I know some people are still relatively high on the Lakers right now. they've lost four of their last six, including to Denver, Phoenix, and OKC. And I would say especially the Nuggets and the Sun's losses.

Like those are teams... They just kicked their asses up and down the floor on offense. They could not stop Jesus Christ. They couldn't stop a cold, y'all. Not a bit. And those are teams you're supposed to measure up against. Those are teams you're in the hunt with, and you can't even stay on the floor with them.

So it feels concerning for the Lakers right now that they have tried every variation of that starting lineup. D-Lo in, or D-Lo out, Cam Reddish in, Dalton Connect in. Star and lineup remixes in Lakerland. I know. Everything that's old is new again. And literally none of them have worked.

That feels damning in a way. So as we're recording this on Monday, there are four worst defenses than the Los Angeles Lakers right now. It is the Pelicans, the Jazz. So two tier five teams with a bullet for us, the Bulls and the Wizard. So practically four of the worst teams in the NBA. Unfortunately, my Bulls are in there,

which really hurts the soul. But they just, they are not good on defense. And I don't see where the solution is coming from because they're jamming the lineups with more shooting in order to goose that. And so it's like, yeah, Connect's been very good for them. But they're almost even more over indexed on offense than I thought they were. And I thought this was very clearly an offense first team. And so it's like you try and gave Vincent while certain guys are out.

Ain't going to work. Jared Vandibal, I guess is just lost in a vortex somewhere. We're just like, you still not going to play. I know. He's related two years, and he's right. But he might still exist. I haven't seen him a while. I hope he's doing well, but like me too.

The defensive guys that they have aren't there. And so like, I think this is clearly a trade team, which means that they're going to have to give up some of their precious young guys in order to do so. But we'll see because I also don't think they have much to give up beyond their draft picks. And I guess you're just hoping for down the road that like LeBron post-Lebron future is going to look ugly. But I don't know, man. They're a mess right now. why I have them tier three along with the clippers, spurs, and wolves.

I think they're, I mean, they're distinctly better, obviously, than the other teams we've been talking about. Like, the LeBron and AD combination will bring you a level of competence. Austin Reeves, creating off the dribble, will bring you a spark that some of these lesser teams don't just don't have, straight up, don't have. But I don't see the gear that kicks them up into these higher tiers right now. And that's where I agree with you. They're like, maybe a trade is in the works. Maybe they don't necessarily have the pieces for that, or they are, maybe they they clutch Dalton connect a little too closely, given that they have been so desperate for that kind of shooter,

and they finally got him and what now you're going to trade him away because you're desperate for defense and all these other things. It just feels, it feels like a big problem to me that Anthony Davis has been one of the best players in the league so far. They are, they're channeling through him, they're working inside in addition to having all this shooting. And yet,

despite the fact that they are like an AD-driven team that has LeBron James, like, coordinating on it, has these other capable players, even has some, like, decent wing size. They're just, like, consistently really flaky on the glass. They're, like, the smallest big team in the league in a lot of these ways and a lot of these matchups. Like, they can, they can be leveraged.

They can be exploited. You can certainly blow by guys on the perimeter and attack them inside. And so it's, like, everything great that AD is bringing you can get neutralized by the fact that none of these other guys can guard anyone. So we talked about Portland as being kind of maybe, like, the clearinghouse for some of these trade candidates or for some of these teams that need to trade. And Grant. Somebody got to go get that guy.

Well, more Jeremy Grant. I don't say for Jerry and Grant. Excuse me. Sorry to bring up the former Nick. Yeah, Jerry and Grant. Former Nick asset. Jerry and Grant. Former Irish?

Was he a Notre Dame guy? Yeah. He was. Yeah. He was. So I think a lot of teams fall on one side or the other with the Blazers where you're either a Simon's team or you're a grant team. It's kind of that like Jackie Marilyn.

duality things that I like. How are you looking at the entire world through the lens of the blazers now? I don't know, but I keep doing it. I keep finding ways. I think the Lakers are a good example here where it's like, do you juice the offense even more? Just go full bore and say, we're an offense first team.

AD could look back there and go for Simons. Or you're like, actually, we need to find more balance. Let's find Grant to be some sort of switchable defender type. Which side of the divide do you guys fall on for the Lakers? To me, they're definitely a Grant candidate. Agreed. Just because of his positional versatility, sometimes playing four, sometimes playing three, guarding all kinds of people.

And I think LeBron has enough cashier to be like, Grant, we know you think you're a, you know, we know you think you're Jason Tatum deep down inside. But realistically, bro, you're a role player, know your role, shut your mouth, play some damn defense. That was like our third wrestling reference of the pod. by the way. It's out of control over here. I know Ben Cruz is proud.

But yeah, I think they're definitely more of a grant team than a Simon team. Although Simons would be sick. But defensively, oh, Lord have mercy. You're going to add Simons in his defense into this mix. And again, he's like, to me, he's so much more dynamic player on offense than Delo, both as like a creator, like for others and himself. his jump shot is just so freaking pure, but he is a god-awful defender.

He might be worse than Delo, which is crazy. I don't think either of, I just don't think either of those guys are going to really solve their problems. And Jeremy Grant gets them closer to being the kind of team they want to be, but there are a lot of, a lot of springy leaks over there.

Talk about a big team that doesn't play big. Get Jeremy Grant's three rebounds a game at the power for position out there. Yeah, that's not going to help. I don't think it's about solving for the Lakers, though. I think it's being the best version that they can be while LeBron is still out there. I think that gets them close to that.

But I think you're right. I don't think that would put them even, maybe make them a tier two team if this all goes right. But I don't think they would be finals contenders by any way. Well, let's talk about those tier two teams. I think tier two is pretty big. Yeah. And maybe it could go even wider.

Like this is a case where, Maybe when the suns get fully healthy, they'll wind up in tier two. I kind of think they're tier three right now. We just haven't seen enough of it. I still have the concerns about their bigs, despite the fact they've been getting some at least better, like, energy role player play there of late. But tier two for me is Memphis, Dallas.

I put Houston in this group and Denver. So my final two tiers, like I said, OKC is just a ceremonial tier by themselves as the favorite. To me, they've been the, you know, we talk about two-way players, to me, they've been the most two-way team of everybody in the West. And so to me, they're the favorites. And so ceremonially, they're at the front. I don't think they're like, like a cut above, say, Dallas. I really don't think so. But I think they've been playing better than everybody else. And they deserve their own sort of tier for that. Cool. Now,

tier two, which is just teams that I think could legitimately tell themselves they can go to the finals if they're right. What's the name of Tier 2, by the way? Finals contenders. Nothing. I didn't get spicy. I didn't get spicy. We're going to go to the lab on that one. I think we can do better.

We can workshop that. And for me, it's Dallas, Denver, Golden State, Grizzlies and Sons. And the reason why I have the sons in there is because I do think they have an elite unit. I think their offense is an elite freaking unit. Their spacing discipline, how much faster they get off the ball and are willing. It kind of reminds me in a weird way of Cleveland's offensive revival this year. They're just so much more discipline and, you know, a little bit more spontaneous and less deliberate than they were last year. And I do think when they have all of their guys, that is an elite unit.

And to me, like an elite unit can carry you to the final. finals if your defense just isn't a complete and utter Laker dumpster fire type of thing. And I think they have the potential for that to have happen for them. Yeah, they're a good flip side of the issue the Warriors are having right now when they were playing them the other night. It's like, oh, man, where's the offense going to come from where Steph's off the floor, whereas the suns just staggered their two all-stars. And they just had pretty consistent offense as a result.

It's like, oh, we could fret over the big three model, whether or not be able to all this other stuff. But when you have one of the two, like, I don't know, top 10, top 15 guys in the league on the court at all time, solve some goddamn problems. So I have them in my second tier. Rob, was I hearing correctly? Do you have the sons in your first tier? No, no, I have the sons in my third tier. He just thinks the sons are crap.

I don't think that's not what I said. That's what Rob is saying. I said there hurt a lot. Bradley Beal is still out. Kevin Duran has been in and out. Katie has been amazing when he's been literally even just available, not even 100%, just available. He's been amazing.

So I don't want to take anything away from that. I just don't think if they have any injury concerns, they don't really have the rotation to sustain it. And their guys do get hurt a lot. That makes me incredibly nervous, even more so than some of these other teams that are in the second tier, which admittedly can be top heavy, right? Like the Denver Nuggets are not a deep team by any means.

But ultimately, when we're talking about Star Power, they have the best player in the world. I also do think that they could beat any one individual matchup on the board. I don't think they have the depth to make the championship run. But I think they can beat any one Western Conference opponent. And that puts them into this kind of class for me. Do you see that they're not even messing around with backup centers anymore? They basically have Aaron Gordon coming off the bench as the backup center.

How do they have like four to five guys that just can't even log five minutes? Because as good as Yokic has been, and he has been, incredible of late. He's playing 39 minutes in a game against the Clippers at the end of November. And it's just like, I love the counting stats. He's having an MVP caliber season, clearly the frontrunner in that race. But there's just that lingering thing in the end. It's like, he needed to do it in 39 minutes and 38 minutes. Just like, there's a lot of foreshadowing happening here. They're not a dominant team. No. If Yokic wears down, I'm going to be mad. I'm just going to be honest. If he gets hurt in like January or February, I am going to

mad, which just shows you how bad this is going to be, because he's doing way too much for this team. Their bench last night, a game in the game that they lost against the Clippers was Aaron Gordon, Russell Westbrook, Julian Strother. That's it. They played three guys off the bench. That's ridiculous. But having said that, this is a Dario Sarich problem. Like, Dario Sarich was supposed to be playable and he's not. That's really it. Like, they were counting on him to at least be able to play NBA minutes and it just hasn't been a thing. So, Dario Sarich, my be the most overrated NBA player of my life.

Boss, that is not even close to being true. Of my life. I remember when Sam Hinkie was a genius because of Dario Sorridge. Shout to Galmeccal. He was a genius. Single handily, he made Sam Hinky a genius. They was like, oh, but they, and they got

Dario Sorri. Oh, my God, this guy is a genius. Dario Sarich. It's like, my Lord, Dario Sarge has never done anything in this damn league. I think Darius Archerich was general. He was, he was, he was, fine. He was fine and now

he's not. And that's an issue. When you're the nuggets, that's an issue. They were really just counting on him for the bare minimum and the combination of a team that was already shallow plus some of the guys who maybe they would have been able to roll the dice with in any other season have gotten hurt.

They're kind of like locked into what they've got and that is a version of the team where like Julian Strother and Peyton wants and have to be good on a nightly basis for this team to be competitive and sometimes they are sometimes they're not. Some's Aaron Gordon's hurt. he's not. Ultimately, I think they are a team that is good enough

and is really hard to place in this sort of tier context, but I believe in the offense. I believe, obviously, in Nicola Yokic. And I do genuinely believe that they could beat any one of these teams in a single series. I just don't think they have the staying power to make a run. Three straight series is going to be hard.

No. It also depends on whether or not Jamal Murray will be flying off to the other side of the country to watch an MMA fight right before the game. Is he doing that or is he not? Because that's going to weigh on He won't be doing that in the playoffs, okay? No Michael Jordan shit in the second round when you have two bench players, please God.

My second tier, just to clarify, I have the Warriors Nuggets, Mavs, Rockets, Sons. Mavs a team we haven't talked about. They were just here in Portland last night. And I think they're a team that, for me, could vault into that first tier once they finally get things right. It's like Luca finally comes back.

And let me just tell you, watching Luca work his way back into shape is so incredible because he's just so good. Like the fact, watching him just be completely unfazed by any sort of like one-on-one harassing defense, just waiting for the moment where the guy like overreaches and then he's gone is like, he just works at a completely different level.

But him back in there, they're losing guys left and right. Lively wasn't there. Kyrie didn't play in that game. Once they're fully whole, I do feel pretty good about them because there's three teams in the league right now that our top 10 offense and defense is the Celtics, the Grizzlies, and these Mavericks. And so I'm starting to like what they have.

We talked about Quinn Grimes the other day. He's been even better. I know. 21, 24, 28 over his past three. That's with and without Luca. I just think he fits really well of the mold of guy that you want playing off of those guys. A little small, like a little smaller than you probably want for a primary 3 and D sort of guy. but I just like what they have

and so for me they're a team right now tier two but you can easily convince me that they're a tier one team. Yeah, I mean, they've won seven of their last eight, six of those without Luca, Luca is now back and they need to get him back to playing well on a consistent basis. This has not been the strongest start

to a Luca Donchage season that we've ever seen but putting that aside everything else for the MAV seems to be moving in the right direction. You mentioned Queen Grimes Naji Marshall has been a total badass for this team real signs of life from Spencer Dinwiddie, especially when Luca was out when they badly needed it,

I just see a lot of the role player elements locking into place for a team that feels deep, that feels physical, that feels interesting, that feels dynamic. Oh, and by the way, Kyrie Irving is playing great basketball and Luca Donchich. When he's right,

is one of the best players in the world. And so if he can get back into that sort of form, I see no reason they couldn't be a tier one, Western Conference team. Yeah, I mean, for me, this is my pick to come out the West this year, the Dallas Mavericks. I think the season has started a bit disjointedly

because of, you know, different guys being out and plus integrating a bunch of new guys in pieces. But yeah, over the course of the season, I expect them to just round into form and show themselves to be a juggerna. And I want to see the defense get to the level that it got towards the end of last season and into the postseason as the season goes on.

Because offensively, man, they got Luke and Kyrie. Like, I'm just not worried ever. Like, that's just not something that I even need to think about. I just would like to see the defense coalesce in a way, you know, that it did closer to their finals run. So do you guys only have the thunder in your first tier? I do. For me personally, yes.

Both of you guys. So I consider that I ultimately went with a two-tier, two-team tier one. I have the thunder and also have your Memphis Grizzlies. Oh, yeah. really shook the confidence yesterday as they went down big against the Pacers. But watching them rally back and just turn things on, I'm like, this team could be very good. Like I said before, three teams, top 10 offense and defense, Mabs are one, Grizzlies are one, Celtics are the other one. And so I just feel like we talk a lot about OKC's depth and like the feeder system and the developmental track.

And that's all well and good. We're basically propagandists for the Thunder's depth. But I think the Grizzlies depth not only is good, but it's like veteran and also fits roles that they needed specifically to round out this core three, which we've been waiting forever to plus seasons at this point to take over the NBA. Finally, Jaws playing next to Bain and Jaron Jackson, that first unit. Brett and Clark has been very good. We need to talk about Jalen Wells. We do. How all of a sudden they found their fifth piece, that long awaited wing defender 3&D type,

that they've wanted. It wasn't Zaire Williams, the guy they traded up in the first round to get. It wasn't Marcus Smart, who's actually playing pretty well off the bench now. Finally. He's actually playing for the Grizzlies, which is something.

Playing and playing well. We'll see if he vaults into that first unit, but I think Wells, the second round pick they got last year, who was a transfer to Wazoo after three years at Sonoma State for a little bile blast there, he actually might be the guy

that they've long awaited to fill that role, which is probably the most Memphis Grizzly shit that I can think. of. It all just works. And I think it's actually going to get better because these guys are playing with each other more now as opposed to like job being out for stretches, Bain being out for stretches, smart as we alluded to being out for stretches. So I actually think this is the gross stock in the league, probably not just in the West, but in the league in totality.

They're just one of the most undeniable teams in the NBA. Like they just get it done. They just, they're the ultimate like find a way to win team regardless of who's out there. Jalen Wells is a great case study in this. Oh, just a role player out of thin air who makes zero mistakes when he's on the floor. Like, plays perfectly within himself. Great effort player, good defender. Like, let's just turn over a rock and find a guy like that.

The fact that they've been able to do all of this with so many people in and out of the lineup with basically no rotational consistency is nothing short of astounding. And the idea that we're going to eventually get to see what this actually looks like when it coalesces, I am very eager to know the finished version of the Memphis Grizzlies. I think I've just been hurt a few too many times. before by the Gris specifically

and like running into the playoff walls in terms of their half court offense a little bit, it's looked better, it's looked more dynamic, it's looked more interesting. I'm just going to need to get over that hurdle mentally to fully be on board with them as like a tier one contender, but they are a contender, right? They're a contending

team. They have everything that they need in theory. They just got to lace it all together and they've got to get some guys back over the course of this year. I like that they can have a scheme versatility to them in terms of we can play Jaron at the five, we can play them at the four. You know, we can roll out a bunch of super athletic guys.

We can roll out a few more shooters than we've traditionally have had, excuse me, in certain lineups. And that for me is what I think is really most exciting about them, especially as you project them out to the playoffs. It's like they can be match-up specific in terms of how they deploy this depth, you know. And that's the nice thing about role players, like, sorry, you're not going to work this series. You're not going to play. And we can just be as precise as we need to be, depending on the team that's in front of us. And that's what, for me, is the most exciting thing about, you know,

what Memphis is doing right now. Yeah. I mean, Rob talked about being hurt before. I think if you had a reason to ding them, it's because jaw has been hurt before several times this season, in fact. And like, he keeps on flying through the air and jumping off the trampoline to make those exciting plays and as good as those are as highlights. I'm also like just ringing my hands, just hoping that he'll get up and not be hurt. He came back from the big all injury, then he had a knee bruise, and then that was an issue. And so that's just something to watch because it seems like he, more than in past years, seems to be in more orchestration playmaking mode. It seems like he's playing the orchestra more than he ever has before. And it's something I wanted to get both your guys take

on, but Rob, in particular, as the official point guard taxonomist, on the staff here. It does feel like there are more guys like this, specifically on deep teams. I'm talking Jha, I'm talking Trey Young, who believe it or not, has a lot of tentacles to enact with the Hawks.

Steph, another example of this, a lot of guys to get involved. It seems like we're seeing a shift to where these deep teens need a guy to make it all work. And Jah is just a prime example of that, where it seems like he's very much

in playmaker mode first and foremost, not necessarily like, like ignoring the scoring aspect, but that's coming second on his list of order of operations. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of that stuff is trial and error, right? If you are a Trey Young,

if you are a Jahn Morant, you've experienced the other side of things. For Jha, it is maybe being a little bit too headstrong in terms of just straight up attacking the basket over and over and over and he still needs to do that and wants to do that and will. But it's all about the balance.

It's all about finding ways to activate these other guys. And watching all of last season, and seeing Jaron Jackson Jr. thrive and seeing Desmond Bain thrive, not necessarily with a bunch of wins and putting incredible numbers on the board, but in like individual skill development and seeing those guys take meaningful steps forward, seeing a team that's this deep. Like, it would be a shame not to use it. It would be a squandering of those resources.

If you're Trey Young and not letting Jalen Johnson do stuff, you are failing in your job as a superstar. And so whoever it was that got to Trey Young, I think is an incredible achievement. like that that is a guy who had been pretty stuck in his ways in terms of style of play. And the fact that he has opened things up and the fact that he has been willing to play a part in a more democratic offense, I think is ultimately hugely helpful for the Hawks future and healthy in terms of the kind of team they want to be. I'll still take three or four crazy shots a game. Of course.

And he's entitled. We have 21 assists a game. I think you could take two to three bad shots. Yeah. If you are on these teams that have these very balanced offenses, like they see. still do need the guy who occasionally is going to force some things and press in ways that, you know, other role players just aren't or can't. And so that's where if you are, Tray or if you are Jot, you are empowered in a different way

to be the leader of that kind of team. So to me, like, the Jod thing doesn't surprise me is just because to me he's been one of our most creative and best passes in the league, basically his whole freaking career. The fact that they were making offense work at all with his lack of shooting. Stephen Adams on the floor was because he was such a creative playmaker. And now their offensive players are so much more dynamic than, you know, the first iteration of this Grizzlies group. I'm not surprised, man.

I get it his dunks and his crazy 360 layups and all of that stuff get most of the attention. But he's, to me, like, you think about him as somebody like Ann Edwards, I think that's what separates Jai in terms of a floor general. spearhead of an offense. It's like this dude is one of the most creative passers in the NBA, super willing to pass. And John Marese seems to be like a guy that loves when his teammates get busy. Like he's always been empowering his teammates. So shouts to him, man.

You know, he's keeping the gun in the holster, so to speak. Metaphorically. And things are going fantastic for them. Was, you are in this podcast, the one that, likes to see your teammates get busy. So we appreciate that about you. So it's right. I had the thunder. I considered putting them on their own tier like you guys have. I think the one sticking point for me was not only the reason see bias of just losing that game against the Rockets, but also the offense can get pretty muddy in a way that I really want to see them work its way out.

I think when J. Dub is clicking as that number two and he's had a lot of good games like 30 point games back to back to back. It looks good, right? But outside of him, if he's not supporting Shea, they're searching a lot, which is fine in the regular season, but it could lead to some playoff disappointments where it's like, is it going to be Wiggins this night? He's going to be Joe this night. Who's it going to come from? I think if you were to ask them, they would probably say, well, that's Chet's roll, right? He's going to be the clear cut number three, him not being there. We're leaving that space open for them. I'm a little worried, though, because one, he's not going to get back until what, like probably after the trade deadline around the all-star break is when the

projection is. And he wasn't really going to be that, he wasn't that guy earlier this season. He was more clicking defensively, the offense was steadily coming around. And they are clearly in this lane where I think that they are definitively the favorite in the West. And if they don't come out of the West, I would be surprised at this point. But they're kind of... I think so. But they're leaving the door open because I almost feel like not pushing the pedal on getting

like another consistent source of offense might leave them more vulnerable than they should be. Like last year, you could write off them not going and getting a big as like, well, we're sorting things out. we're figuring this out where I had a schedule. Now they're like on track. They are expected to be the favorites to not go and get that guy and round out what you have. Even if it is like sort of a breaking glass in case of emergency sort of guy, I think would be a mistake. And so right now they're on the same tier with the Grizzlies, but I think they could

vault into a tier unto themselves if they just shore that up a little bit because it's something that like it's a nagging thing, but like I can't ignore it at this point. Yeah, I'm not even sure that like the guy that. that they would get on the trade market is distinctly better than some of their role players. Because the Thunder role players are really good at other things and they have pretty well-rounded games. They just don't necessarily have that microwave score type

that I think could relieve some of the problems you're talking about. Like there are times, there are times and places to stick to your system. And there are times and places where you have to deviate from it. And right now, Shea and J-W are the only guys who can really deviate from it. I think long term, the vision is that Chet can also be one

those guys. He's not out there obviously right now. Also, as you alluded to just an offensive, it's just not what his game is right now. But if you can get someone in the door who can buy you a little bit of time in that way, be great for you this season as a source of some instant offense, I'm with you. Like, you have the picks to spare. You have a lot of bodies here who are good players again, but maybe even more than you can reasonably know what to do with. And so I think it makes sense to consolidate some of that into somebody who can generate a basket. get on command in a way that I love watching the Thunder play

but there are games where you're just you're living and dying with five minute stretches of guys missing threes who are so-so shooters and they're good they're good shots like they're open shots that come out of flow I see the process I know what they're doing they're just not going that

that day and on that day maybe you need the other kind of guy yeah I think the thing with Chet is a couple of things like bringing in a third offensive guy I wonder because Chet needs to get the reps in terms of offensive responsibility. So I wonder if that kind of thing gets in the way. If this guy is a franchise cornerstone, he needs to learn how to do this thing at some point.

And he needs to learn how to do it at a pretty high level. And another thing, I wonder if the answer isn't just, dare I say it, an Evan Mowgli-esque evolution into just playing bigger. Just beating guys up, just beating up guards when they try to put little guys on you and forcing the action. And you know, not being afraid to dribble drive against some of these little guys and drawing files and that kind of thing. It's not like Chek becomes like Hakeem Elijah Wan and just cooks people in the post and it's just like this offensive hub.

But just like he's able to supplement the superstar shit that Shea's doing by just being a more well-rounded complimentary people. he's on offense. That's what I think to solve is for him, more so than becoming like some beast, you know, usage, monster on offense. I don't know that he's ever going to be any of that. They need a third guy.

You need a third guy they could turn to if those other two just don't have it for whatever night or only one of them does. I will say Hartnstein being back in there has looked pretty seamless. It's been a monster. It's just he fits exactly what they do, gives them an oomph in like a true big man

that they lacked last season without like sacrificing just the beautiful flow that they've developed. But I think Rob is right. It's like is there too much of an overall alliance on this feeder system on the developmental tract to where they won't go out and get a Colin Sexton to juice their what is now the 11th best offense in the NBA because we've bought in guys like AJ Mitchell and all these guys that if you just really kill it in these eight minutes, you can like vault into that role eventually. Does that like completely disrupt everything that they believe? believe in so they're not going to go outside of their house and get that guy. It's an interesting question. I think they're probably at the point where they should because they have a clear

window and I wouldn't sacrifice a window when it is in front of you this way. But I guess we'll see. But I guess they'll have to settle with being next to another team in my tier for the time being. It's a tough break for one of the best teams in the league and maybe the future NBA champions. That's right. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Isaiah Blake. I'm production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Thursday. As for usual, we'll talk to you next time. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800-Gambler or visit RG dash help.com. Call 1-88-88-88-8-8-8-8-8-9-7-7-7-7 or visit CCPGGGat in Connecticut or visit MDGamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit Gambling Helpline, MA.org, or 800327-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts, or call 18778 Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.