The Ringer NBA Show - What Are the Biggest Unsolved Mysteries From the Trade Deadline? | The Answer

Episode Date: March 26, 2021

Chris is joined by Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney to dive into some of the greatest unsolved mysteries from the trade deadline and look back at the moves made by the Nuggets, Bulls, Heat, and more. Host: Chris Ryan Guests: Rob Mahoney and Justin Verrier Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's Dave Hill takes you on a journey into the underground lives and careers of six professional gamblers. This eight-part podcast is a unique look into the gambling world that you don't want to miss. Check out gamblers on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. I'm Chris Ryan. This week I'm joined by Justin Verrier. Hello. And Rob Mahoney.

What's up, Chris? Who are my former group chatters? I mean, they are still group chatting, but I used to be part of group chat. Now I'm on the answer. And now I'm asking big questions about the NBA trade. deadline because for as much activities we had yesterday, I still feel like there are some lingering unsolved mysteries. So I wanted my favorite detectives, my true detectives, to come and help me solve this case. Hope you guys are doing well. Hope you guys had a nice evening after all the chaos

of the afternoon. Well, do we have the money for the Unsolved Mysteries theme? Like the John Carpenter-ass theme song from that show? Rob, we do have the money. And that is now the theme song for the answer. So yeah, we're going to be jamming like a mega mix of all-time great mystery shows. their theme songs like coming together and kind of a kind of European Mediterranean techno theme kind of like an Ibiza thing so yeah very speaking of Abitha you are broadcasting live from there right now actually

no but you were really in the in the trenches yesterday obviously we put up a bunch of stuff on the site we put up a few several podcasts just in Bill Simmons land alone so I wanted to ask you now that you're taking a step back from it like did you have any major like did you feel like that was about an appropriate amount of action. Did you think there was going to be more or less? Anything else?

You know, it's funny. I went back and looked at some of the more recent deadlines that we've had. And ultimately, I think we netted out around where we usually do. Like, I think we talk about a lot of the big stars moving, but there really isn't more than maybe one big name and a bold-faced name. And I don't even know if it's a good player. So for instance, like last year, I think DeAngelo Russell was probably actually the only big player that got moved

at the deadline itself. So we approximated that I think the biggest difference that I saw coming away from this and kind of looking back at it is it seemed like the action was centered on a few teams. Like you look back on it.

It really was only the magic sort of the rockets if you want to just count Ola Depot in there. Well, there was a point in time where every single trade had either involved the magic, the kings, or the raptors. Yes.

And so the whole league was kind of revolving around them in some sense either buying from them or selling to them. Yeah, this is a trade deadline where I really felt like I was noticing a lot of the rhetoric around certain teams driving the perception of that.

So like Zach Lowe saying, this is going to be a foundation, like, what did you say, the face of the franchise or it's a franchise altering day? And they traded Norm Powell, you know? And that was like a kind of like pretty normy mid-tier NBA team thing to do. Toronto's obviously an NBA title winner. But like they kept Kyle Lowry, they kept, you know, OG, they kept Pascal. It's not like they just blew everything up at, the break. So it was, it was kind of fascinating. I think going into it, it just like all of a sudden

the Lakers became these like super aggressive buyers, but pretty much stood pat. You know what I mean? Like all these teams that I think had a lot of juice going into the deadline. And for the most part, it was, it was a pretty chill one. Yeah. The only real curveball that we got was probably Vooch. And if we look back and the best player who got moved was probably Vooch. And I think it's just, he's a good player. Don't get me wrong. I don't know what that's going to do to the Bulls' bottom line for the season, but like that's just, it doesn't feel like the same sort of splashy thing that we expect going into the night. No, but I do think we got just enough of the guys we had been talking about,

the Aaron Gordons and the Evan Fournieres, and they kind of wound up where we thought they would wound up. And then you have the Blazers jumping in to get Norm Powell. You have just a couple of twists and turns along the way that kind of made you perk up, even if that was just Toronto opening up a couple of roster spots to ultimately, do nothing with them. Yeah, there was, in years past, Justin, you mentioned a couple of these trade deadlines passed.

I went back and looked at a couple, and you go back to 18. You have a sort of the last great Cleveland makeover, which was a disaster when the Clarkson and Nance era began. You see Blake getting traded to Detroit. The following year, the Grizz, the Grizz send Gasol to the wraps,

and that's the sort of the Clippers sent Tobias to Philly. And that's the big, like, Philly just keeps redoing their entire team in mid-season and hoping that they come up with the right caliber of want-away stars. And we didn't really have a makeover this year. I mean, obviously Orlando, to some extent,

announced that they were going to be rebuilding. But there wasn't, with the exception of Orlando, there wasn't like a massive makeover, especially among a competitive team. And it seems like most of those teams are going to stick with the idea of consistency. But going into and coming out of the trade deadline, I do feel like we had a very clear idea of like there are certain teams that are buyers

and there are certain teams that are sellers. And I wonder if this is us like internalizing tanking over the last 10 years to the point where we're like, you know what? Who are we kidding? The warriors are, this is it. The warriors are not going anywhere. They should do X or they should do Y. Or the warriors should be buyers and the warriors should be in the Lanzo ball business or they

should be in the Vujvist or they should be in the Zach Levine business. or something where I feel like we're in the baseball binary now, where we're talking about teams almost exclusively as buyers and sellers, and that they can actually like turn the boat in the canal a little bit better than they used to be in the NBA, where it used to feel like if you got into some bad contracts, you were basically who you were for about five or six years. Yeah.

I noticed two pretty big differences in this year as opposed to the past couple of years. One is there are guardrails in place against tanking, And I think it's been more prominent than it ever has been. So we have the play in tournament. This is the first year that team actually go into a deadline knowing that they have the possibility to make it. And also the flattened lottery odds. I wonder if that sort of thing has a chilling effect where if you're a team like the Kings, like maybe you trade Harrison Barnes.

Maybe you trade Buddy Heald. On the other hand, maybe you just keep those guys and just like roll the dice. Maybe you make it. Quiet is kept there on like a pretty good winning streak right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They just blew out the Warriors last night.

I think they scored like 140 points on that. carcass of a team. And I think worst case scenario just end up somewhere in the lottery. But as we've seen, like, you could be the Pelicans and jump up and grab Zion Williamson with the number one pick. Uh, so there does feel like more more teams just like going for it. Just like kind of like, let's just, let's just see what happens. I mean, the pandemic is probably also playing a factor in this where there's a small sample size. Uh, and you don't really know what your team is. And you could probably convince yourself and your owner that you are the better team that you thought you were going into the season. And I also want to.

I wonder, the other thing that seems to be plain to this is just, I wonder if teams are asking for too much. Like, I wonder if these big blockbuster trades have affected the market to the point where, like, it costs you multiple first round picks plus Wendell Carter, a recent first round pick in order to get a vouch. Like, Lowry didn't get traded and I don't know, we'll probably get more reporting on this. I wonder if they were just asking for too much. Yeah, the Lauer thing, it might be that he was just like, look, here's the deal. I'm going to Miami anyway. but it could have just been like

if the prices were Tyrese Maxi, Batis Thibel, and Picks, that's too much for Kyle Lowry right now. Rod, what do you think of that? I do think there's more gray area to this year's deadline to the NBA in general than to what you're describing in baseball. Chris, I'm going to have to take your word for it.

You could tell me literally anything about the market dynamics of the Major League Baseball. Baseball happens in our offseason. So like we're probably just like, yeah, sure, sounds like the A's just blew it up again. But like I just think they just felt like a little bit more nimble this year. Well, I mean, think about even the teams that were sellers or relative sellers, like,

give the magic on one into that spectrum. They are doing their own thing completely demolishing what they had. But then you have teams like the Warriors who are trading away Marquis Chris, getting some luxury tax savings, but they're not trading Kelly Ubre. You know, they're not trading Draymond Green, not trading Andrew Wiggins. They're holding on to something to make them competitive. You have Toronto who holds on to Lowry but trades Powell. And Sacramento, as we talked about, kind of trading some guys, keeping other

guys. There's a line to walk here where, I mean, all NBA teams at all times are trying to have it two ways at once, right? They're trying to win, but they don't want to pay the tax. They want to rebuild, but they want to keep certain veterans. This kind of reiterated that to me, and you see a lot of those conflicting motivations at play with some of these teams. It's an impossible dance to do, but it's kind of what a lot of these teams end up trying. JV., I want to talk to you a little bit. This is an idea that you have before we even started the pod, but it was about this idea of some teams, and we saw their sort of through their behavior

and the trade deadline, having essentially like market-sized identity crisis. Tell me a little bit about what you meant about that because I think you were talking about the Bulls, right? Yeah, I'm just constantly confused by the Bulls because like I grew up under this assumption that they were one of the major players. And it just seems like ever since Michael Jordan has been gone,

they've always seemed to operate a little bit less like one of the big swinging teams on the marketplace and more just like one that's content to build through the draft or like really work the fringes or now as we're seeing play toward the middle, I guess. Like I respect them going for it with Vouch and Levine as your core. I don't know what type of team that's going to produce. And I also don't know if that's enough like long term. If like Vooch and Levine are even going to stay there. It just, it's weird to me to see that city given its history do that. And I mean, you could probably extend it down to like a Houston.

Houston's a big market that typically is attractive. Here they are just selling everything, and they won't even play for a Ben Simmons when they're going to deal with James Hardin and just keep it going. They're actually going to raise this down to the absolute studs and play like their OKC. It's just, it's very weird.

It's creating this binary system in the league where it's like very have-nots, and I guess have picks and have-not picks, you know? Yeah. Well, what does a big swing for the Bulls look like right now? Well, that's tough. Yeah. They kind of back themselves into this position.

But you would anticipate, like, maybe they go the opposite way where you have a new front office. He gets out all the picks that he probably doesn't like. But he's actually going to maybe play for another top three pick in his upcoming draft where everyone thinks that, like, there is going to be a superstars. And then you build your team. I guess I'm just not convinced of Levine. But I also don't know, like, the fatigue that ownership has had and just the fans that have just playing, like, I don't know, for the eighth seed for what? Like, just a couple of years now. Right.

I think that's a huge part of it. Levine is at the core of everything they're doing. Because you're at the stage with him, he's reached a level where you want to retain the one star you have. He's one year at a free agency after this season. And so you're looking down that line and saying, okay, we could preserve cap space. We could try to do this or that. We could try to do these summer machinations.

If those fall through, you're really banking hard that your one really good player isn't going to leave. I don't know when I became the guy who really wanted Zach Levine to be on a good team and play with good players. That's been my personal journey this season. But that's where I'm at. And I'm really excited to see what these bulls look like. Yeah.

You know, Kirk Goldsbury had an interesting piece on ESPN about the tendencies of our big NBA stars and where they're going and whether they're going towards the coasts. And, you know, I think for the most part, watching so many guys be pretty explicit about wanting to go to Miami is, I think, is much about like lifestyle and temperature and going to a temperate climate with no state taxes. you know, and, you know, guys going to California. But, you know, you see Brooklyn. I mean, Brooklyn's a cool city, but it's still cold and it's still, you know, loud. And it's got all these elements of it that New York's an expensive place to live is there's no one rule. But I do think that we're starting to see if guys don't mind sharing the spotlight, we're just going to get more and more super teams because there's not that thing where dudes are like,

hey, you know what? I think I'll just go. And if I can be the guy in Indiana or if I can be the guy in Indiana or if I can be, be the guy on the T-Wolves or if I can be the guy on the spurs, I don't really mind where I'm living. And instead, we're sort of seeing guys be like, no, you know what, it's much more convenient so that, like, if I pull my, if I twist my ankle, we don't lose seven in a row. You know, I'm going to go play in L.A. with LeBron, or I'm going to play with the Clippers with the Kauai or I'm going to go to Brooklyn and join a super team or go to Miami.

So this bring me to Miami because Miami is this team that subtly did change their, I mean, if not their culture, at least a little bit of their identity throughout this trade deadline. They trade for Depot, who's long expressed an interest in going there in the first place. And it sounds like they are the nailed on favorites to get Lamarcus Aldridge in the buyout market, which then would make their team kind of Jimmy and the old guys instead of Jimmy and the young guys. It remains to be seen to what extent Lamarcus is like a serviceable player for them or not. But you kind of assume that everybody goes through the Miami muscle machine and comes out the other side in the best shape of their life. So it's like the Terminator time

machine, they go back and they come back and they're like, ah! Justin, what do you think of Miami? Kind of maybe taking a step back from Butler with these, you know, Hero, Duncan, Robinson, you know, Bam, who's obviously going to be a huge part and be a starter. But, like, kind of bringing in some more veteran sensibilities here. It's one of the weirdest deadline, like, refocings or just like refurbishments of a roster that I've ever seen

because they managed to do this all by only trading one pick. And I think it was a pick swap. wasn't even a straight trade. Yeah. Like, so shouts to like whatever cap geeks that are like working, you know, the early hours in order to make that whole thing work. But I mean, I think they're a better team and they maintain flexibility for going forward. Like a lot of the big guys they got didn't cut into their cap space for next summer.

So like maybe they just delayed their Kyle Lowry pursuer. Maybe they just delayed, you know, chasing Bradley Beale and they kept the Duncan Robinson's and whatnot. Like so there's that aspect to it too. But it's just, it's bizarre. I guess they're better. I'm not much of a believer in current day Oladipo, but at the same time,

like, if it doesn't work, like they're in a good position. One of the more bizarre outcomes, I think I've seen in recent history. Rob loved it. I know Rob loved it. I love it because it wouldn't be hard to cut bait on any of these guys

if they don't work. And Chris, you mentioned, is this them shifting their identity or shifting their culture? To me, it feels like them trusting it. It feels like them looking at what they did last year, bringing in Jay Crowder and Andre Aga Godala at the deadline,

and say, let's try that again. Let's see if we can get some fresh blood in here. Let's see if we can get some different kinds of skill sets. See what that does for us. And this is a team that historically has done that. They will make a run at Goran Dragich at the deadline. That's kind of how they roll. And the fact that they were able to add to what they do without materially changing who they are, the fact that they didn't have to give up Tyler Hero or Duncan Robinson or even Kendrick Nunn. All the rotation guys are still there except Kelly Olinick. And now you get to build on them with whatever remains of Victor Oladipo and you're bringing in Trevor or Rees. and hopefully Aldridge can give you something. Namania B. Elitza, I think, is a pretty solid stretch option for them. Certainly, you know, better than Myers-Leonard could have been out for the season. So, and, you know, other things notwithstanding. A better citizen than Myers-Lennard as well. A better gamer as well.

One can only hope. But, yeah, I mean, I like what they did. I like the flexibility. It gives them within the world that they've created for themselves. So the heat, obviously, we're very aggressive. And I have to imagine that the heat felt like we're actually not that far away. You know, being active and adding guys and recalibrating our roster a little bit, restocking it. We're not even that far away.

The East is all bunched together. You know, three and nine is basically a matter of a couple of games. Let's get after it. You know, what do you think about the teams that stood pat? What about Philly, who obviously had George Hill for Tony Bradley, who I, I guess that was the wrong time to liquidate my 401k into his top shot. No, but Tony Bradley goes to Oklahoma City with, I think, a second rounder, and George Hill comes the other way.

George Hill is recovering from a thumb injury, but it seemed like a very phantom thumb injury. I'm sure it was a real thumb injury, but it seems like he's going to be ready to play pretty soon. And he is kind of like a, if you can't get Kyle Lowry, then why not get George Hill kind of move? Utah, Stan stood pretty pat. What do you think about the teams who are like we like where we're at?

and we're going to sit this one out. I mean, it's very weird that Daryl Morey is the conservative player at the table, but it just seems like now we've gone through two instances, first with the Hardin Trade, and now at the deadline where he's like, nah, I kind of like my team. I'm just going to kind of keep going forward with this. Do you think Daryl has caught dealer Dannyitis? Is that what you're saying?

Maybe. It's just, it's a little bit curious. On the one hand, I get it, because you do have a young team. Like, you really don't need to rush the Joel and Bede Ben Simmons core. you could just keep rolling this forward and keep like applying different shooters around there and keep seeing if it works. The clock really isn't ticking there. On the other hand, and I do wonder, Chris, you could probably speak to this, but I do wonder if like Philly fans probably have Deolitis where it's just like maybe just see if this works for once and for all. Maybe don't trade, blow this up every like six months. But on the other hand, I do wonder if like this is the window for them. Like the nets are going to be a juggernaut as long as that big three exists. and right now Kevin Durant isn't on the floor

and he hasn't been on the floor for what, a month plus? And I do wonder, like, maybe that doesn't happen going forward and maybe this is the time you really make a push. Like, maybe the bucks are better two years from now where they have the same team, plus they have like a mid-level guy to throw in there. And so I'm of two minds here where, like, one,

maybe the price was too high and maybe Daryl was right for walking away. On the other hand, I really feel like this might be the year for Philly. Rob, what do you think? well, could it have been the year for Philly if they had to trade that much stuff to get a guy like Lowry? And for me, it's not just the picks and Maxi and Thibel.

It's, you know, you have to probably throw Danny Green in there for salary reasons. Are you able to cobble together the rotation you want with the size you want on the wing and all the defensive options you're going to need if you have to give up that much stuff? So I think, honestly, I think we're kind of onto something

in the idea of Darrell, you know, we called it being conservative, but maybe being too demanding and too aggressive in drawing the line. at we are not giving up Maxi under any circumstances or whatever their line was. Yeah, and also because I'll just ascribe certain behaviors to Darrell Morey that I have no idea if he actually, if he actually does. Like, he also could have been driving the market up on Lowry a little bit.

You know what I mean? Like, I think that he, like, there was a lot of talk about like what was going to take to get Lowry. And clearly everybody, the Lakers, the heat, the Sixers, all decided it was too rich for their blood. As far as Justin, what you were talking about with the consistent. And I mentioned earlier in the pod, the Tobias Harris trade that happened earlier, like a couple of years back when they just sent Bobon and Landry Shamm at a bunch of picks of the clippers. And then there was the, there was obviously the Jimmy Butler deal that sent Darius Arch and Robert Covington to the Timberwolves for Jimmy Butler.

The Sixers have done this. They have done the like, let's, let's completely, you know, refurbish on the fly, bring in what we imagine to be like a higher talent player. and then try and just figure out like consistency and roll and fit on the way, on the fly. The thing that is kind of wonderful to watch this year as a Sixers fan is that every single guy

one through 10, including most importantly, Ben Simmons seems to know exactly what they're supposed to do out on the floor. And they know exactly where those other players are going to be at any given moment. And yes, at the end of games, Benzeman's not really being a shooting threat

is definitely a thing. Like I've watched back-to-back games Warriors and Lakers where they were up 10, 20, 15 points, and it gets down to pretty close at the end. And you can see in the half court, it's Tobias or nothing, where last night it was Danny Green or nothing. So it's definitely an issue. And I think that somebody like Kyle Lowry would have been helpful. But you're exactly right, man. I don't know if Kyle Lowry would have been that much more helpful than having Maxie Green and Bible going into the playoffs, you know, and having stability and having guys that everybody seems to like.

And George Hill is like the classic, oh, you guys had a. George Hill, that was really smart. That was like, nothing is going to get tilted too much because of George Hill. Did you guys see any other teams who didn't make moves that you were like, that was probably the best bet? Rob, what do you think of what Utah did or didn't do?

I think the notable thing with Utah is, and really, we can't say this enough given the size of their market and the fact that they have a new ownership. They didn't, you know, they're committing to be a tax-paying team. The fact that they kept their roster intact, they didn't touch, nobody moved, Let's keep this chemistry going.

Let's keep this group that we know is a good team that we've been building for for basically two seasons to get to this point. Let's roll it out and see what they can do. And I think Phoenix isn't kind of a similar spot in terms of, if you're a team that's on the rise like that and that's trying to break through the ceiling of the LA teams and the conference finals and try to get to that level,

you almost don't want to disrupt too much when things are starting to go well. You want to give your group an honest chance to see what's going on in the playoffs. And I think both of those teams are going to have that shot. They both look pretty good right now. We'll see how they stack up with some of the best teams in the West and in the conference. But I don't know what else I would want them to do beyond just kind of trust in what they've got.

Yeah, I was surprised by the Lakers. I was surprised that they were even in the mix for Lowry. It felt very much like Twitter brain. Like I'm going to put every current All-Star into a Lakers' like Photoshop jersey. Well, they also had the misfortune of having to watch. like THT, KCP, Schroeder and Tres, like, but without LeBron and AD for a couple of nights going into the trade deadline. And I think everybody got really shook about that. Yeah, I mean, like, what would the team be if they had to trade like the bulk of those guys? I mean, that was the

problem with Lauer. You had to get up to like, what, like 30 million or close to that in order to match salaries. That would have been like most of the team and they're already playing a skeletal unit. I wonder if it would have been like Caruso and like Damien Jones and Kyle Lauer. You're just playing three on five for the rest of the season. Well, I don't know if you saw the full Galaxy Brain takes of the 15-step plan to revamp the Lakers. Those were great. We're trading these guys for Lowry. We're trading Carol, so Andre Drummond's going to slot in for him.

But you know, that's not even Galaxy Brin. That's how the Cavs used to operate. Like, that's what the Cavs used to do. Yeah. Yeah. That used to happen once to two times a year with the Cavs. It was just like, everybody out. LeBron's got a new idea.

You know, like, it's terrifyingly true. It's a scary world being LeBron's teammate. You're up and out of there. at a moment's notice. I wanted to throw another unsolved mystery at you guys here. This is really a mystery as much as it is, like a theory. Is availability

the best ability at the trade deadline? I was struck by how, you know, two weeks, three weeks out, when we start really in earnest talking about guys who could possibly move, and all of a sudden, like a bunch of these guys, really good players and really interesting players.

But we started talking about Aaron Gordon and Lonzo Ball. as if they were like, we're moving Dominique Wilkins and Charles Barkley at their prime. You know, like, I was, it was definitely like a lot more like,

who will win the sweepstakes around Aaron Gordon where I'm like, we see what the winner gets in Orlando. Like, that's, Aaron Gordon is Aaron Gordon. But now, of course, he gets traded.

He goes to Denver and all of a sudden, everybody's just like, damn, is Denver going to win this whole thing? But do you think part of the reason why, I mean, it's a market, do you think part of the reason why we get excited by these guys is

their simple participation in this, spectacle of getting dealt, Rob? I mean, I think history says that's true just by the fact that in the grand scheme of things, deadline deals are not usually that good. You know, like, it's a very small list of trades made this time of year

that actually capital M matter. And, you know, we had one of those last year. We certainly go down the list of the Rashid Wallace's and the Paukasals and stuff like that, but is Aaron Gordon going to tilt the balance of the league? I think probably not. But the fact that if you're the nudge

it's you don't need probably. You just need a little bit of an inch of a chance better than you had, especially given what they had to give up in that deal, which I think was totally manageable for their situation to justify pulling the trigger on something like that. So it's probably more of a question for those of us on the outside

and how we talk about these things than the teams involved in them. I think they're pretty calibrated in terms of who Aaron Gordon is, who Lonzo Ball is. Yeah. I think it kind of goes back to what we were talking about at the top where there just weren't many sellers. And so, like, we really knew

the guys who every team was identifying. There really was just like a chase for certain players. And a lot of it seemed to be financially motivated. You know, like a lot of the guys you heard talked about John Collins, Lonzo Ball. Everyone wanted to bring up the restricted free agent boogeyman. It's like, oh, God, he's going to get so much money this summer and yada, yada, yeah. Like, do they want to pay him? Who knows? Lori Marketing, another guy. And it just seems like decisions are being made more based on finances and like what guys could make rather than like, you know, X's and O's or like, I need this rotation guy or I really want to make an all in move now. And I think the other part of it could just be like, it just seemed like front offices or the way we talk about things replicates

how front offices go about them. And so I think like 10 years ago, we might have been saying like Philly, just burn it down. Let's get Lowry and just rip and run, man. Let's just like, let's go. Let's go for this season. What's the point to have in Tyrese Maxie unless you're going to trade them? Right, exactly, exactly. But now we're like, they need financial flexibility in order to make sure they have a mid-level five years from now. He said that in his press conference. He was like, we have optionality.

But Rob, like, do you think that there is like an element to this where it's like, obviously the rockets? Like, look at what the rockets have been doing. You know, Hardin leaving was a devastating blow to the franchise. I think that they could have put together a more dignified NBA team over the last 12 months if they wanted to. like clearly it's a fire sale. I feel really bad for Stephen Silas. I feel really bad for Raphael Stone because I don't think it's their plan

to go through with this. What do you think? How much do you think it has to do with, say, the finances of Tillman-Fritita versus just the devastating impact of a superstar leading, of having to trade a superstar that you're never going to get fair value for?

I think the short answer is it always has to do with the finances of your owner. Like one way or another, that's always the bottom line with pretty much any transaction, any team-building strategy, what is their diet for risk, what is their appetite for spending? And in Philly's case, or sorry, in Houston's case, not to show my hand here,

but I feel like they had the option there to get Ben Simmons. I think the reporting on that is strong enough at this point to say if that's what they had wanted, if they wanted the all-NBA player in hand, that was on the table. And they chose not to do that. They chose to go for Victor Oladipo versus Karas LaVird or Jaron Allen. I think that's one we're going to be second-guessing for an. awfully long time, but their strategy certainly seems really shaky right now, given where they are. But a lot of that, a lot of what they have banked on is the risks of Brooklyn holding together

over the long term. And so we're going to see some of those distant picks. Justin, you brought up a great point. Like, is this the time for a team like Philly to go in now? Because Brooklyn could get even better. If your team like the Rockets, you're hoping that Kyrie Irving rubs those guys the wrong way, that Kevin Durant isn't as available as Brooklyn hopes him to, hope, that he'll be, that James Harden will hit free agency and start to reconsider his position there. That's kind of what they're banking on. Maybe they're hoping that good shooting goes out of style.

You know, betting against some of the best offensive players of their generation, not the business I would want to be in, but that's the road that they've chosen for themselves. Yeah, the failure of Houston, I don't think is that they didn't get Ben Simmons. Like, yes, I definitely would have taken Ben Simmons rather than just like the absolute

like, you know, muffin basket of picks that they got there. but like they declined Jared Allen and Keros Levert both two very good players who would help them not lose 20 games in a row and be respectable. And it's not like they're they're so old that like you can't build a team room. They could just be like part of the core whatever you want it to be or you could trade them for more value than you got for Oladipo, which was literally a pick swap and fucking Kelly Olenick. Yeah. It's just like that was awful. I mean, speaking of the muffin basket though, Chris, this is a morning meeting.

you couldn't even put out some Danish or something for us? I'm sorry, guys. I slept in a little bit. I was up late watching French crime shows, so it was just a little bit. No, you know, I think that that's like, I want to go back to the superstars trading thing because it does seem like, I don't really care as much about the, like, I've gotten to the point where I don't really care as much about the player empowerment error and like just guys demanding out and they can demand out or they can't. I mean, like, you can also just hold on to them.

You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't really make that big of a difference to me, but I do think that the teams have not figured out a way to catch up with, like, there's no way to kind of compensate yourself for the exit if you're going to do it through trade like that. And time after time, people are playing the superstar sweepstakes. And then when they lose the superstar, they're just like, we're screwed on like a galactic level.

And the only team, honestly, and it's weird to say this about this team, that I think has handled it pretty well, is the Pelicans. like the Pelicans actually seem to be in the best shape after the departure of a franchise superstar. Does that track for you guys? Justin, what do you think of that? I think it's probably the only thing the Pelicans have done well of late because things are not going well down there in New Orleans

as much as I like, I appreciate some of the people in charge there and what they're attempting to do. I mean, I think the team that probably leaps, freeprogs them in that kind of like post-superstar aftermath sort of vibe. I think it would be OKC. I mean, they've just taken that approach to a street.

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. They just, they, if picks is a thing that like, these teams are going to get, like,

I understand that it's a very difficult situation to be put in, first of all, for any of these teams. Like, you're not going to get fair value for your superstar. Like,

there's no, like, making up for an Anthony Davis or, you know, a Paul George Weber, Chris Paul. But it is curious. that this is the way things are going now to the point where I don't know.

Like, are these picks going to be helpful down the road? What we got to see is what their value is. So, like, let's say, for instance, next, let's say Sam Pressy decides Kate Cunningham is this guy, and Cate Cunningham is going to save Oklahoma basketball. He doesn't get the first pick. So he goes up to the team, whoever they are,

Timberwolves or somebody, and he's just like, hey, look, man, I'll give you seven picks for this guy. like okay like I mean is that I want to see whether or not the seven picks are the same thing to them as Bradley Beale you know what I mean

or the same thing to them as I can't even think of like a guy off the top my head but like the same thing as like Deerrin Fox you know or something like that where you're like yes I want seven picks I want to worry about where these things are landing I worry about getting these guys into my system

and whether or not their games translates to the NBA and what if they have something wrong with their knee instead of I see Bradley Beal every day and he looks pretty good. I'm going to trade my number one pick for him. I do want to say one thing in defense of Houston here. Oh, absolutely. You know, Lowry seasoning is amazing.

You know, relative to Oklahoma City and New Orleans, so I think both did an amazing job with their return halls for their stars, those teams were really opportunistic in identifying the situation that was in front of them. They also got a little bit lucky in terms of their front offices got to play the superstar empowerment market

against the teams they were trading to. In the Clippers case, for example, they only get Kauai if they have Paul George. That gives unbelievable leverage to the Thunder. And you had kind of a parallel, but similar situation going on with the Lakers and needing to get AD. The problem with the Rockets is the primary suitors for Hardin

and the teams he wanted to play for were Philly and Brooklyn. Two teams that at that point of the season, given where they were, they didn't need James Hardin. You know, they both could have gone on, had great seasons without him. They have their superstars. They have their cores. Unless you had that kind of compelling need, that existential, oh shit, LeBron James might

get pissed off and one out of here kind of need. Oh, shit, we might not get Kauai Leonard kind of need that puts the fear of God in you and you start unloading all the picks and pick swaps you have. I don't know how good a return you can really get. Yeah. Well, Kari Irving wasn't playing at that time. And then all of a sudden post-James Hardin trade, he started to play. again. So I, there are a couple of things that we don't actually know. Yeah. Yeah, right. And I mean,

there did seem to be a bidding war that broke out there. So like, I agree with what you're saying, Rob, but there did seem to be like a tension that led to, uh, Houston getting all of those picks. But like, I don't know, like, so just circling back to the picks thing for, it's kind of like giving me cryptocurrency vibes here where it's like these things could be worth so much on the open market because we know they're not going to ultimately all be players for Oklahoma's because otherwise they'd be fielding like a community college football team. They'd be like 55 guys on that roster. So how are they going to use those as value in order to do what they want?

That's exactly what I'm concerned about. Yeah. Yeah. Like what is the value of these things? They could be enough in order to get Bradley Beal and just like stuff Tommy Shepard's like mouth full of picks to the point where like he couldn't say no. On the other hand, maybe everyone's like, I don't want that. I actually want the bird in the hand.

I want Michael Porter Jr. I don't want these like these theoretical things that I don't know what I'm going to get for. Yeah, the only thing that you have going for you with those picks is it's the point in time where that person might be like, I do not want to be in Oklahoma is farther down the road. You know what I mean? Like they're not going to get a free agent signing. So everything they're going to have to do is going to be a trade for a guy who still has some time left on his deal or a pick where you can rebuild Valhalla with Durant, Westbrook,

and Hardin, except it's Cade and whoever else. but yeah like I don't really know I really want to see what happens with this with this pick bananas that they have because I just I think some guys might turn their nose up at it and I don't know how much of use it has for people especially when you're talking about that kind of bulk size I mean in the NFL you can just be like look we're going to get this

left tackle and we're going to go get this right tackle and no matter what bozo we have playing quarterback he's at least not going to get sacked every other every other down right like you can kind of build through the draft in a very effective way let's get the best safety and chances is our defense is going to be like okay. In the NBA, it's a lot, like, we don't barely have positions anymore.

So it's a lot more, like, complicated to be like, let's get this guy for this amount of wins. I just like this crypto metaphor where Sam Presti, using all the picks is like everyone taking their money out of Top Shot at once, and the whole system just completely collapses.

Presti coin. Well, guys, we can wrap it up there. Did you have any other, like, big mindstone gems that you wanted to drop on me before we took off? Any other, like notebook scribblings about the NBA trade deadline to impart on me. What's the thing that nobody has talked about that you're like, hey, what's up with this? Anything? The JJ Reddick to Dallas trade?

Yeah. I think that it's fine. There really was like a big gap between like some of the moves and then everything else that happened. Like there were a lot of Mo Wagner's or Daniel Tice that like just flew under the radar here. Well, Boston. Yeah. Boston is an interesting test case. It all ends in Boston for us. anyway. I know, seriously. It just seemed like they were primed to do something. And yet again,

they just, like, kept their ball and went home. I mean, I do think, like, getting some depth pieces probably affect their bottom line a little bit more than people would expect because it seems like the story of their team is just, like, after their top four or five guys, it just falls off dramatically. And so I do wonder, like, getting a fournier for basically nothing, getting Wagner, who could, like, maybe play a little bit more of a stretch role than, than, then, I don't know. Like, maybe that affects them a little bit. But, like, I'm a little fatigued by Boston continuing to flirt with the blockbuster

trades and then walking away with the same team that they have. What's the deal with the Tice thing? I thought Tice was good, by the way. I thought Tice was fine. Apparently, the entire team and city seem to have soured on him. Even though there was some very lovely Instagram tributes to him from his teammates, it did seem like smart and him were about to tear each other to pieces on the bench the other night.

And then, like, I just seemed like Boston Twitter was just. just like if I ever see this guy play basketball again, I'm going to lose my mind. I just feel like we just came out of a multi-year campaign of people telling us how good Daniel Tice was. And then he just got dumped for Mo Fogg. Reincarnation of Mehmet O'Kour, why are you guys disrespecting the God?

Yeah. Well, Boston, much like Miami, is obviously had a terrible season by their standards, but is also like right in it. And Boston is like a five-game winning streak away from scaring the shit out of me. So the trade deadline is over. The real work begins.

The NBA playoffs are about what, like a month away, five weeks away. Yeah. And nobody else is actually playing basketball these days. And no one is playing basketball until then. So enjoy Formula One guys. For Rob, for Justin, I'm Chris. Thanks for listening to The answer this week. We'll be back next week with the Ringer NBA show.

You've got real ones. You've got group chat. You've got Ringer MBA University. There's the mismatch on the mismatch feed. And obviously Bill and Ryan will be talking about NBA throughout the rest of this season. Thanks for checking us out.