The Ringer NBA Show - What Are the Characteristics of a Great NBA Sixth Man of the Year? | The Answer

Episode Date: March 1, 2023

Kyle and Seerat start their conversation by talking about their time at All-Star weekend and a particularly contentious experience Kyle had at a local restaurant recently. They then talk about the NBA Sixth Man of the Year award, the general philosophy of the role, and the history of the position (10:09). Next, they dive into the evolution of the sixth man, how Manu Ginóbili embodied its true spirit, and areas where the league may have gotten the definition wrong (29:03). They end the pod by examining some of this year's candidates for the Sixth Man award and debating who they think could win it (45:14). Hosts: J. Kyle Mann and Seerat Sohi Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Kevin O'Connor. I've got some big news for you. The mismatch is hosting its first ever live show in Los Angeles at the L.R.A. Theater on March 6th, me and Chris Vernon are going to be there. I'm fired up about it. At the L.R.R.A. Theta, there's been performers like Bob Dylan and Kendrick Lamar, enraging as the Machine in Licky Lee. I'm fired up.

Get to be on that stage with my guy, Chris Vernon. We've been together since 2016 doing NBA podcasts. And now we're going to get to meet a lot of you who have listened. to our show for so many years. We'll do a Q&A at the end. We might have some special guests, but we're definitely going to be talking basketball. It's going to be a lot of fun.

I'm excited about it. Tickets are going fast, though, so be sure to head to the LRA.com to get your tickets now. Doors are going to open at 7 p.m. And the show is going to be starting right at 8 o'clock. Let's go, baby. Basketball is so very good, and it's good to be back. And it is very, very good to be back with my dear friend,

Searot Sohi. Sear it fresh off of an All-Star weekend where she was networking and talking hoops and and just colliding with the greatest minds in the sport. Sir, how you doing? What's up? Oh, good. I think I saw you rubbing some elbows and, you know, talking your talk. Also, the folks was a little different today.

It was almost like there was a healing, like, you just, you just like breathe into a helium balloon there and then said, folks. A little higher pitched? I didn't mean to. You know. It's great. Are you just a little, a little up. beat today. Be a little nervous. Sun shining, you know, I don't know. It was kind of, yeah,

maybe a little different energy, I guess, you know. We were talking some whimsy, some whimsical. Yeah, a little bit, a little camp in there. Yeah, we were, we got to hang out. Yeah, Siritt and I were joking about, we give each other a ton of shit. We wrote an article where we basically gave each other epic nuclear amounts of shit, but we don't get to hang out in person. So it was cool to get to see her and to see our dear friend Michael Pina and folks like Dave Dufour and Katie Hindle. It was a fun weekend. What was your big takeaway? What was your favorite thing from All-Star, Syrett? Or did you have a good time, period? I had a great time. My favorite thing was actually just hanging out with everybody, you know? I think us, us sizing each other up was really

fun. That first, like, I feel like that first day were kind of just like, okay, like, what's, what's this dynamic going to be like in real life? There was a great, I'm going to repost it, actually, for anybody who didn't see it. I had. I hit Kyle with just like one of the most incredible and specific one-liners for the, for the listeners of this show. Anybody who knows his basketball sensibilities will really appreciate it. And he tried to cover the camera lens when I did it. And I think it only made it funnier. Yeah, because I'm known for my Carl Anthony Towns, you know, affection.

That's something. No, I mean, I think he kind of overworked. You were really excited about this pun. This joke, this look with the Carl Anthony Towns drug in and dragged in. And I was, I was just like airball, airball, you know. It wasn't it. It wasn't, it wasn't, it didn't feel organic. But yeah, you repost that and see what kind of reaction you get.

Today we're going to kick off a series. We like our series. Series is here on the answer. We like to open up, you know, sort of connected things and just kind of work through them as best we can, but this is going to be about award season. We're going to be just going a war by award, talking about, like, you know, obviously discussing who should win, but, you know, kind of diving into the nature of the awards, where they started, how they started, how they got their names, do they make sense, kind of pulling apart the narratives around them? So we're going to

be kicking that off today with the Sixth Man of the Year award. Before we get going, though, I want to start with a quick segment called Am I a Sicko? We could put the little. Logan Roy clip there. Are you a sicko? So the other night we were going out to dinner, my wife, my son, and a couple friends. And before we go to this one particular place, I won't say the name of it. It's a place where you often, it's popular enough that you need to make a reservation. So I make, but you can usually get in if you do it like a couple hours before. So I make a reservation, but there are going to be four adults and my son, who sits in a high chair. Typically, in the past, I didn't say, I didn't include him.

because the high chair doesn't really kind of count in the seating count. You know, he just kind of latches onto the table. So the other day we went, and this particular restaurant owner is known for being kind of uppity and maybe runs a little hot and maybe kind of has a little bit of a legendary reputation around town as being prickly at times, I'll say. So we get there. I had made the reservation for two people. This is a two-parter.

So I make the reservation for two people. We show up. We're sitting there. We are at the hostess stand, which happens to be run by the owner. And when we get there, she sees that it's not just two people. It's two people and a child. And she basically proceeds to kind of lecture me in a way that's like pretty aggressive, like, hey, in the future, it was just like, why would you do that?

Why would you do that? And we were like the only people standing down there. So I'm just standing there taking this abuse. and I'm just like, this is a little over the top. So I'm talking about it as we get to the table. And Megan is agreeing with Megan, my wife, as some people know, now everybody knows if you listen to this. So we're sitting at the table.

Big wife guy. Big wife guy. So we're sitting there at the table and I'm making a note of this. So a couple weeks, maybe a week, a couple weeks later, I'm sitting at the computer and I'm getting ready to make the reservation again with some friends. And I'm like, four people, four adults. I'm like, I went through this spiel. this time, should I go ahead and do the five?

I was like, no, I'm going to do four again just because of the way that this woman overreacted last time. So on purpose. Yeah, it's very on brand for you to just assume a woman is overreacting. Oh, come on. I told you what she did. Anyway, this is, we'll unpack more of that later, I'm sure. So we will. We get there and she sees again.

And I don't know if she remembers. me, but she, but she starts basically in on the exact same lecture in a way that's pretty rude. And as we're walking to the table, Megan was like, you remember you? I don't know. That's the funny part. But she did the exact same spiel. And we're just sitting there and Megan was like, you didn't, and I didn't say anything. And I was, I kept it to myself what I had done. And so after the meal is over, we're walking out. And I went, I said to Megan, I was like, you remember when she lectured us again? I was like, I intentionally did four again, just to needle this lady for being such a jerk. And Megan was like, do not include me in your,

do not include me in these kinds of scams or schemes or needlings in the future. I don't want to be a part of it. It wasn't like real, real mad. But I was just going to ask you, is that sick oh behavior? Should I not have done that? Do you think she deserved it? Am I? What do you think about that move on my part? Was the restaurant busy? I mean, there weren't like a ton of people standing in the waiting area. It's a huge restaurant. That's another thing. It's like there's a lot of stuff. seating in this place. It's like a multiplex sized restaurant. And it just, I felt like, I felt like, I felt like, I felt like it was an amusing experience for me to get that, that reaction out of her again. I don't know. I don't know if I'm a sick or not. I don't think I am. I think

I'm just a shittster. And can you, can you give us your best sort of rendition of a lecture? I told you. She started in with like, why would you do that? If there were three people, why would you put two? She was like, we do this on purpose, which is, it's nonsense. She was like, this is this many seats. And I was like, even if it's a two person table, the high chair is going to be sitting to the side. So it was just, it was stupid. I don't know, serious. I don't even know if that was a good story, but I, yeah, I feel like it does, it doesn't make, it doesn't rise to sicko level, but at the same time, I do find myself thinking, you know, in a situation where there's a reservation, you're making a reservation. I think, you know, allowing the restaurant

time to prepare, like letting them know what is going on is like probably the right move. I imagine maybe if she handled it differently, you would have. Yeah, exactly. It just, you know, it's like interesting to me that you were like, oh, I really got a rise out of this woman. Let me do it again. It just lends itself to a pattern of behavior that maybe you should think about. You think the bigger person in that situation would have just absorbed the frustration, or I should have been more empathetic about why she was.

I don't, I don't, I think in that. I don't necessarily absorb the frustration. You could have, you could have been a little, you know, you could have given back some of what she was throwing at you. I didn't feel like being confrontational. So I was just like my revenge against her. So you were passing aggressive instead. Yeah, I was like Tito Fuente in the, in the Simpsons. I wasn't going to get back at her.

I was just going to play the Congo's. This is my revenge. I just wanted a different type of revenge. Anyway, speaking of, uh, do you feel like quietly satisfied? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. When she started lecturing me again, I just like started. smiling. I was like, yeah, this is what you get for being such a jerk. I was like you get to

experience this again. I'm all for like, I understand the service industry is frustrating. I've worked in it. I've been on customer service side of it. I just, I don't know. Let me let me know if on Twitter if you guys think I'm a sicko or an asshole, but that's what happened. Let's talk about the sixth main of the year award. Sir, you like did a lot of like diving into the history of this award, can you just kind of get the ball rolling on how this started? What was the thinking behind the award who won the first one? Get the ball rolling with where this award came from. Because it wasn't one of the, it didn't start immediately with the league, right? It wasn't a league that it wasn't an award intuitively where they were like, this obviously is a thing that we need to figure out

from day one. Yeah, I think this was, this was a role that was kind of, you know, popularized slash mythologized by John Hablicek, who the award is actually was named after this, this past December when the NBA decided that it was going to rename all of its awards suddenly because it didn't actually exist when he was playing. He was a member of the 60s Boston Celtics, and he was their sixth man, probably most famous for, you know, his nickname was Hondao and for that last minute's deal that I think is like kind of one of the, one of the, the most sort of memorialized black and white highlights from back in that time. So the NBA, I guess, kind of honored him since he never actually won that award,

but he kind of was the guy that started it, in a sense, or at least was the most successful to do it. But I think the role that he played kind of gets to the spirit of the award or what it was intended to be, and that has changed. And it's actually, I don't know, it's like, it's taken a lot of different turns and we'll get into all of that. He was a guy that was on a stack championship team. So they needed to balance things out and took on a bit of a sacrificial role.

And all this Celtics lore, actually, it's a part of our orientation at the ringer. Whenever we come on, we have to learn about all this. I'm just kidding. Yeah, there's actually, there's a bunch of other guys. But we just decided to go with the Celtics. I was actually thinking it's like going to be a pretty like Celtics history heavy. start of this because like Kevin McHale was and won it twice. Bill Walton when he was a member of the Celtics won it twice. But before we get to that, the award was the first year of the Six Man Award was in

1982, 1983. And it went to Bobby Jones. And learning of Bobby Jones was fascinating to me. This is amusing to me to hear it. Go ahead. I don't remember this in real time, but I just enjoy history, see it. So let's, let's hear it. Oh, you don't remember it in real time? Yeah, nice try. Nice try. I mean, 1982, 1983, those were like, you know, that was like your prime, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, before I was born. Siritt's been trying to boomerize me, everybody. I'm being, I'm being boomerized and targeted and unfairly treated. I'm only eight years, eight years older than her. Go, continue with your thing. God, just go. He was nicknamed the Secretary of Defense, which just badass, by the way.

But he was like shot blocker, off ball cutter, hustle type of player for the Sixers. And when he got there, Billy Cunningham, who was also a former six man, never, never memorialized, but played that role. He asked Bobby Jones to come off the bench and, you know, he thought that it was going to be a lot more of an argument that it was. And within 30 seconds, he was like, okay, cool. he was just one of those guys that never really cared too much about what his role was, never really cared about, you know, starting, never cared about, like, some of the stuff that you people kind of get caught up in, like, and there's a lot of fun Bobby Jones stories out there, but he was like a very serious man, but also someone who, and he's still alive,

actually, I shouldn't say, shouldn't say was, he's a very serious guy and, like, also just, like, didn't engage in any sort of vices or anything like that. He's not like me and Kyle. He doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, doesn't curse. I don't know what you're talking about. And like there's so many good quotes about him. I'm just going to rattle some of them off. Larry Brown says watching Bobby Jones on the basketball court is like watching an honest man in a liar's poker game.

One of the things that I thought was fascinating reading about him, if I have to play defense by holding on, that's when I quit. If I have to use an elbow to get a position, then I'm going to have to settle for another position. And if I foul or if the official makes a mistake, there's no youth screaming about it. It won't change things or make me happen. happier. Like the stoicism in this man, like, my God, he should be, like, making YouTube videos. It's emotionally mature, though, too. He should be, like, consulting or, like, counseling Jason Tatum

after getting, like, tossed out. Tatum, hot temper. Need to bring it down. You know what I mean? It doesn't seem like one of those guys that would pull himself out of the game with, like, his mental state, right? He just kind of is, like, if he just takes a lot of accountability, it seems like, for, for his own performance there. Yeah. And, That's actually a good point because one of the things that we'll get into is like the difficulty of adjusting to the six-man rule, especially if you've been a starter in the past. And one thing that his teammates would note about Jones was that when he was sitting on the bench, it was like he was completely disengaged from the action. That's what it looked like at least. And then his name would get called and it was like a flip switch and he was just ready to go.

Like he didn't really need. And we've like we've gotten some concern trolling from Russell Westbrook when he first had. to come off the bench and he was like, oh, my hamstring. And like there was like, and there is some genuine stuff there too. Like, we'll get into it of like if you're used to the starting role for most of your life, then you do have to sort of find a way to acclimate yourself to that role, right? But for him, it was just automatic. It's hard to come in cold. I'd imagine you probably, you probably barely played. I'd imagine being so, you know, of lesser talent. But I would say that like, it is, it's a hard life. Like, I know when I was like in my earlier varsity kind of day,

that like I used to have to come in cold. And one of my expectations, I was like a shooter. And my thing was like, you come in cold and you shoot cold. And if you, you know, if you go two for four,

you get to stay in for a few more minutes. And if not, it's a hard life. I mean, I will say, but, you know, some players need to,

I'm fascinated too by like this idea of like, so you were a sixth man. No, I was probably more like the eighth man. I'm like, and on our good team, I like barely played. But,

um, yeah, I would say that like, it's an interesting thing that like the ego that's attached to like starting a game you know what I mean that like starting is almost seen as like a ranking you know whereas like basketball has some sort of like has some interesting ego and you know I've talked about this like ego like ego things that are wrapped up in a team game that are kind of difficult to sort of like separate and parse where you know really a basketball game is like a thing that flows I was comparing it to like before

before we came on the pot, I was comparing it to like the way like a song unfolds at times. It's like, you know, maybe the guitar part is the best part, but it needs to come in at this one spot for it to like, for the cohesive sequence of things here to work right. I'm not saying it's an exact, you know, one-to-one metaphor there, but I just find that interesting that like how much ego is tied up in that, you know, that like that it's a defeat if you don't start, you know? What do you think? I love that metaphor.

I love the idea of, you know, there are certain notes that are just like way too strong to come in at the start. And they might actually like be dissonant with, you know, with the way that you're starting the song. Like you just can't put everything together. But like you might need you might need a little bit of a jump at a certain point or like a tone shift. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. That's interesting. And that's kind of in the spirit of the award as well or the spirit of the role. And there are a lot of different six-man roles. Let's get to that. Yeah. We'll continue the timeline, though. Let's, like, just, can we, we'll bounce to a couple of the other ones.

Like the first 15 years, I feel like, though, there was kind of an interesting pattern among the six-man, the guys that won the six-man award. Yeah, a lot of Hall of Famers. We had Kevin McKeel. We had Bill Walton, coo coach. But one thing that you noted was that a lot of it was big men, power forwards that were more on the scoring side of things, right? And that was the case with Jones too. I'd say like that the year that he won, like the inaugural year of the award, he was backing up Moses Malone and the Sixers won a championship that year.

And I think it speaks to where the league was, a lot more big man oriented, probably a lot more need for rebounding, just having that presence down there. And then we kind of saw it shift quite a bit. And I would say, I would say there were a couple of players that started to show you how it was shifting. Del Curry won the award in 94, kind of playing what I would call like the Kyle Man role, just coming off, coming off the bench, cold and trying to hit jumpers. Yeah. And that's another thing that's interesting about it.

I think there is a pressure that comes with being the six men, especially if then you get credit for being the guy that runs a bench unit is not only do you have to come in cold, but you also kind of can sometimes put pressure on yourself to make sure that you're making something happen. Like you're watching the game And I think there is something to Like you know all my years is a bench warmer You get to see

You get to see what the action is You get a little bit of a preview Without having to be in it right It's like it's like you're almost reading a book Right And there is a sort of sense of like Okay now I have to come in And if the team's not doing that well

I got to shift the energy And that can be a lot of pressure To put on yourself It's just like one player right I feel like the players That tin towards that tend to be in this position, it honestly often lines up with their nature in a way where I don't even know if they have to be, if they're, you know what I mean? Because a lot of times, and we'll see

this as we see the people who won the award over the years, I feel like it very often is a player who has like a certain appetite. It's often an offensive appetite that maybe isn't in moderation in a way that's like efficient and like helpful. These are guys that, you know, whether or not this is correct for who should win the award. But I don't know. I think that because a lot of times they'll come in and be in for, they'll overlap with the first four before they run the second unit, right? So, you know, you come in and you got like,

and it's unique to every case, right? That, like, maybe it's somebody who's not efficient enough to carry a full offensive load on their own. Or they're not, Mikhail ended up being a starter, as we know. He was on one of the best, like, front courts of all time. But, like, and then you got a situation with, like, Bill Walton. who kind of overlapped with somebody else who's a contender this year, who's another Boston Celtic.

But Walton at that point was way, way overqualified talent-wise to be in that situation. But his body just couldn't do it anymore. He could come in in these little spurts and perform in like a line with like the Larry Bird, Bill Walton. I've said this before. I've said it on Bill's show. Like the Larry Bird, Bill Walton highlights are like unreal. Like, I don't know if you've seen those. But yeah, the offensive thing continued on, like Detliff Shrimp with Seattle and then like Clifford Robinson with Portland, Tony Cooch with the Bulls, Danny Manning. These are all guys who were like in that 6-9-6-10 range who were like just offensive spark plugs. And I feel like their variance could like swing towards on this one night. They might be the best player on the floor because they're feeling it. But you don't necessarily want to rely on them to be that guy on a nightly base.

I kind of feel like, but I think that you were right about like the size of the league being a precedent was something that I hadn't thought about that that might be why it sort of like drifted towards guards over the years and why it was big guys early on. Yeah, the league itself became more perimeter oriented. But I think it's interesting. Like you use the word spark plug. And that's the word that I would use for the modern sort of iteration of the six man. The Jamal Crawford's Williams. And like we saw it, I think, with Curry, of course. but John Starks, who won in 1997, is very much of like that current tradition.

Like that, in the 90s, we sort of started to see that shift of like what, like, I think you said it, of like what they kind of used to call off guards, which is a term that, you know, we don't really hear that as much anymore. But yeah, someone who comes into the game and it kind of goes in two different directions. Like, it can be a player who just happens to be on a stacked team who is better off running the bench unit. and would be a starter in a different situation, or is building themselves into a starter. Maybe there's a defensive deficiency there.

I think, like, you know, Tyler Hero last year is a great example of that. I think James Harden, you know, in the OKC days is a great example of that. Rookie Ben Gordon. Another great example of that. Rookie Ben Gordon is also the only guy to be a rookie and wins six men of the year as well. But, like, they're not necessarily players that I would immediately consider as selfish or like that they wouldn't be able to play in a particular role. But there's also the other end of it where like I just feel like

this is where the sixth man of the year award becomes its silliest and actually like completely gets away from what it was meant to be, which is like when you had guys like Lou Williams winning it all the time. Like the Gunners, right? Like the Jordan Clarkson types, the J.R. Smiths of the world where it's like you come off the bench because you play like a star without necessarily being a star, but you haven't necessarily developed like the role playing characteristics that are required to actually like coalesce and and coexist around stars. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. It's like your, I always say I used to describe Malik Monk like this. I was like in players, who I thought could end up being, he's this breed of player or he's this breed of player. He's kind of, he's evolved a little bit. Like, I don't know. When he was in college, I was like, I was like, I kind of feel like this is who he is, but his self-awareness has been better in the NBA than I thought it would be. But it's often guys who have this wild ability to, it can spike really high.

Like, that's what I was talking, like, that's kind of what I was describing about. It can spike really high. Like, you might, I don't even know what J.R. Smith's career high is, but I imagine it's super high. You know, we saw a Jamal Crawford 50 piece. I think. Didn't he, he got a 50 piece when he was like almost out of the league, I think. But there are those guys who, well, I was going to say the way I would always describe

Monk was like, I feel like he's nuanced that you are going to want to stack on top of like implied offense, which is like this is what we do. This is our philosophy of how we get, how we're going to try to create offense. And then this person is going to come in and his variance is just going to be extra headache.

But it's the kind of, if he's on, we can move him and kind of focus on him for on a nightly basis. depending on how things are going. But if he's off, we're not going to be penalized by that variance. You know what I mean? And those guys,

what's interesting, too, is that like, and if you look over the years, that's the Clarksons, the Lou Williams, the Jamal Crawfords, the J.Rs, guys like that.

But if you go, Barbosa, I kind of feel like, was like the first one to win the award that was of that DNA, you know? Like Barbosa could just get going.

And he was sort of that lather score thing that I always say. He's also a great example because he was such an off-kilter and quake basketball player that there were certain situations where if your offense just wasn't doing what you needed it to do in a particular night, if you just threw him out there, the defense would be like, oh, we have not accounted for this. Like, everything that we're doing before was not in the style of what he's able to do.

Yeah, it's a guy you don't want to lean on. There's a guy on Kentucky squad this year that's like that. And his name's Antonio Reeves. It's like, you don't want to lean on him, but when he's rolling, It's a major pain in the ass. Like for what you just said, it's like, and Brazilian blur to one of my favorite all-time nicknames. I don't know.

It just has a nice. I'm a huge, huge Barbosa fan. Yeah, yeah. He just had that, he was fun with the Warriors too. He just had that smiley kind of like, I'm really fast. Yeah, just a very good vibe. Very good vibe from Barbosa. The NBA season is heating up and now is the perfect time to download Fandul,

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is that a lot of them teeter on the edge of, and I think you nailed it about not evolving in the direction that they need to become a part of that primary philosophy. You know, a JR can exist in a construct with LeBron because LeBron is like so over, there is no like confusion when you play with lebron like you know it's like lebron lebron could like contain jr's jrness in a way that was like doable you know um but and wasn't going to kill you

but a lot of these guys like teeter on the edge of that like they're talented enough to be a superstar i always joked with you that i thought that the the trophy for this award should have been like jamal crawford with a thought bubble that says i'm better than chris paul like i i felt like if you gave A lot of these guys, a lie detector test over the years, you'd be like, are you better than the superstar player on this team? And they'd be like, yeah, I'm better than them. Like, I just feel like that energy is kind of what the Sixth Man Award became. But I don't think that it necessarily is, I think as we were talking about this, I'm not trying to labor this too hard. But like, as you and I were talking about this, I was just thinking, man, what a fucking stupid award. Like, when you think about it through that lens where you're like, well, this guy's just being rewarded because he thinks, he's, you know what I'm getting at? Like, he thinks he's a primary option, but, and we're rewarding that? But do you think that, like, I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, are we, is that missing the point and how?

I think I had moments where I felt like that, too. First of all, I'll just say that the NBA, like, complete, like, they immortalized the current gunning nature of the award with a new trophy. It is a player shooting an off-balance jump shot. And V&B says, it is meant to. It is meant to signify a symbolic boost provided by the player to his team. Guys, I love y'all. This is just a little lazy.

It's just a little lazy. Oh, yes. We needed a second draft on that one. Take the piss out, Sir, let them have it. No, I think it's just, it's just not great, guys. That's one of those. Did no one raise their hand things? That's my thing.

Like, yeah, an off-balance jump shot, guys, come on. Come on. So, I mean, let's say a bad shot. That's where we're out with the award right now. But I think this year, and I think like overall, right, like, I'm with you in terms of, in terms of what you're saying. But at the same time, there is also a rich history with this award of players who genuinely were self-sacrificial. And we haven't even talked about Mani-Janoble. I think that's where we can get into some of the- I'm always down.

Let's go. We can always talk about Manich-Nobly. With the approval rating all time, right? You talk to, if somebody said, if a basketball fan said to me, if a self-proclaimed basketball fan said to me, manu denobly, I'd be like, okay, well, you're not a basketball fan then, basically. I just feel like he appeals to the most central thing about the sport that just feels right, you know, for lack of a better way to put it. But like, I think that Genoblee, he is a prime example.

There are a few others. I think that the award should be named after Janobli. I personally do. that he's named, I don't know if there's another award. I'd have to revisit. There's not another one named after Genobley, is there? I don't think so. I don't think so. A, you get some of the international thing in there, which really, I think, is key to the sport now. Like, uh, in a, well, not now, it has been for quite some time. And, and, and he just embodies the award, not that Havelacek doesn't, but Havelichick started way more, if I'm not mistaken. And I just think that

he hits on what we were talking about. Like, okay, we've got this, like, we've got this sick and I think some of this is like the maturity of kind of accepting what is best for the team and what really the selflessness of the sport like the philosophy of why basketball can be so beautiful and things like that taking it back to the music thing. I know this like when I was growing up as a musician like playing in bands playing in things like if I if I was excited about playing on a song or something like that like it was the restraint is a powerful thing like to know when restraint is appropriate and when. it serves the group, you know what I mean? Because sometimes when you have something that you want to play and you're excited about, you don't want to wait. It's like, so like for Genobley and players like him to take the input, or Bobby Jones, to take that input of like, hey, we need you to enter the frame at this time because it's going to

be more impactful than if you're in frame one for us. I just think it, Genobley embodies the spirit of what we're talking about. There's a couple others that we'll get to, but I think he is sort of the central thesis if you wanted to point to one person. You know what it's kind of like? What? It's like in Gone Girl when all of a sudden, Rosamond Pike is driving in her car and we hear her speaking and we're like,

oh, this movie is completely different than what we actually thought it was going to be. Yes. Like, that's what it's like. And I think, I think that's what it's like when like to have a player like Genoblee come off the bench for you. You know, you're like, it just completely flips the action. But Genobley completely, like, he is a guy who represents what the holy grail of this award should essentially be, right? Like, he is actually better than the star who started over him, with all due respect to Tony Parker, just factually correct. Was all NBA the season that he won six men of the year and was truly good enough to be a starter.

You know, it was like, there was no question about it. And there was like this kind of irony about who the best six men end up being. It's like always the player who has the confidence to know that they deserve to be a starter. Ends up, I think, being the most effective six men is like the, like the ego thing doesn't play into it as much when you have a natural sense of confidence. And yeah, I don't know. It's just, it's like a certain skill level too, right? To have an actual starting player caliber go against a bench unit is just like, you. You can't really account for what that gives you.

I mean, you can. You can now. You can now. You can't account. We have that. We have those. Yeah, we have those. No, I was going to, I brought up one to you that, yeah, I want to boomerize myself

basketball wise here, but there was a guy named, you know, you remember Morris Peterson playing for the Raptors, though, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, Morris Peterson played on a national title team at Michigan State in 2000, and they actually They beat a Florida team that actually had Mike Miller, who actually would go on to win the six-man in 0506. It also had Eudanus Haslam.

That was a really fun. Billy Donovan team. Just wanted to throw that in there, a little college basketball history for you. But Morris Peterson was their leading scorer, and he came off the bench. He was their six man. It's fascinating to go see the percentage of, like,

how often they started over the course of the year. Do you kind of have a limit on, like, how much you think it's okay for a person to start and still win the, Ward or what do you think about that? Well, the NBA's rules are essentially that you have to come off the bench more games than you start. So it's like slightly above 50% is basically what they're saying. And I think that's fine, especially in the modern era where there are so many injuries

and load management where it's kind of natural for a player to toggle between both roles. I think it's also like let's get into the modern day in like the current six man of the year race. We'll start with Norman Powell because I feel like it's a natural transition to your point. We got to mention Andre Aguadala, too. We got to throw him in there. A guy who was still a good player that he was confronted. He was not confronted, but he had a talk with Steve Kerr about what was best for the Warriors and came off the bench.

I just wanted to. No, that's a good one. It's like that. He's actually the perfect example of a player who thrives playing that role. He wrote a book called The Sixth Man after kind of struggling to accept that role in the beginning. By the way, a great book. Have you read it? No, I haven't.

You really should. It's like, I mean, it's Andre Agatha. He's so damn smart. The way that he sees the league, the way that he sees it from like the players' perspective and just like analyzing different things that they go through trades. He talks about coaches like basically lying to his face, you know, what it's like to. Man, there was one chapter. This is like total digression.

But there's one chapter on him going back to Philly. And the Philly fans booed him because the media put out that he was the one who wanted out. And it was back in a time where like, you know, like, Igu Dala did not have like a media connection to be able to refute that somehow. It came from the team. And he just like, he got booed. And at the end of the game, he just like shared this sort of like stare with Doug Collins.

And like, it was like Doug Collins like didn't even want to look at him because it was like he knew what he did. You know, like, yeah. And there's a lot of stuff like that in the book. It's a really interesting book. And like it completely changed the way that I see the NBA in general. But that was a great digression. I need to read that book. Like it's interesting that they would lie.

anyone would try to lie to someone as smart as Andre Equatala. But that speaks to what we're talking about, that the good intention of like, hey, man, that he trusted Kerr, that Kerr was thinking about the team in a way and not trying to like soften Andre's ego. It was just like, no, for this like assortment of players, you could really, you know, water the plants that go dry typically

in this stage of the game for us. Yeah, and also, in fairness to players who don't want to do it, Like, I think an experience like that is why you start not wanting to do it. It's, like, pretty hard to be consistently team-oriented when, like, shit like that happens to, you know? Sure. Sure. I think that's fair. Yeah.

Bridging it to the modern thing, though. I disrupted you there. He's a great example, though, like a player who is a great playmaker, a little bit off-kilter, too, in his own way. It was, like, was never really meant to be, like, the second score or the first score, like, the guy that they tried to, that he was supposed to be coming into, the league. He was like a utility guy, a playmaker. And that's that's the one type of player that I feel like gets short shrift in this award too. Like I think part of my beef with the sixth man of the year voting has been like it so consistently goes to Gunner. And I'm not saying the gunner doesn't have their place, especially on like, you know, often like teams that don't have enough offense. Like you

need scoring. But the same time like like my biggest thing with it has always been like I was as you know, just like a Died in the Wool's Bulls fan growing up. And Todd Gibson, never winning that award, just pissed me off to no end. Like this man came off the bench for Carlos Boozer, who could not defend any pick and rolls. Ever. I just watched him. Oh, my God. I would get so pissed.

And the team was obviously better when Gibson was in the game. It was so clear. But Booze was like the second star. And like, you had to start him if he was healthy. But when he wasn't healthy, which was often, Gibson would be the starter. And Gibson would come in. He was more athletic. He fit the defensive identity of the team.

He was good enough scoring-wise. Like, he wasn't boozer, but like he had a decent mid-range game. And he was athletic and he played well off of Rose. And it worked a lot better. And he worked really well off of Noah, too. And instead, it would go to, it would go to Jamal Crawford, which, by the way, fine. Like, that's fine. but like does it always have to go to Jamal Crawford?

Can it sometimes go to Dodge Gibson? I feel like there are Bulls fans out there that are like in their cars just like holding their hands up. They're like, yes Lord. Yes, Lord. That was an epic. I don't think I've ever seen your energy level get that high over.

Like that was incredible. Anyway, if we go back and we look, we had a run where it was like 13 J.R. 14 Jamal, 15 Lou, 6th, Jamal, you know, Eric Gordon, Lou, Lou Clarkson. It just, I feel like Harold. is probably the closest.

We just had a mega run here. And I guess we're in a situation where we as a group of individuals who watch the sport and talk about this sport and we attempt to get it right. And I kind of feel like this is the, this is the, I'm doing the like the emoji for the, how do you describe this? It's like that Italian like Genesequa. It's that Italian thing, Geneseecois. Right.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, Kyle. No, I mean, it's that something, something. It's that crux of the award that we want to get the spirit of it right. And I think that's what we're setting out to do here. And I think we have a chance to get it right, which segues to the modern candidates for this award.

Do you see any kind of historical, any kind of potential to repeat past errors? And do you see any potential to correct and make the right choice here? Because I think we've established the best version of this. I'm not trying to downplay. We said we're not trying to downplay the offense, but that's one side of it that I feel like we got a little obsessed with. You made an incredible argument for Taj Gibson a little bit here.

Do you think that we have a chance to get it right this time around? Yeah. Let's just talk about today's candidates because this award is going to be getting handed out soon. So we were on a one-way crash course to getting this completely wrong just two weeks ago when Russell Westbrook was a Laker and was the odds-on. favorite to win sixth man of the year, despite the fact that the team was still better with him on the bench. And he basically went to the bench kicking and screaming and like, publicly not hidden. And to agonizing his coach and kind of making it sound like he was, he would put him, like his coach would put him in a position to hurt himself before eventually going to the bench.

And what was clearly a move motivated by the fact that if he didn't, things were going to go very poorly for his career from that point moving forward. He is now a member of the Clippers. We will not get into any of that. There are many podcasts that have gotten into that. But he started and we'll see how that goes. But he will probably be a starter from here on. And he is no longer the odds on favorite.

In fact, his odds have dropped to like, I think like 3,000 or something. Anyway, anytime your sixth man of the year candidate is someone that the team also is perpetually trying to trade and is a candidate in the bio. market. I don't know. We might be doing something wrong there. That we've avoided that reality and it has given way to a bunch of really great candidates for the award this year. I'm happy about it. Yeah. What's that? I said, I'm happy about it. I did just that what you were describing, it just makes your head hurt. It's like, we really, really, I don't, I don't know that he would have won. A lot of what you were saying there, I guess, was driven by Scuttlebutt and by like the odds, which the odds are usually

driven by Intel. I think he was going to win. Like every, oh man, every time he checked into the game, ESPN couldn't have any, like, no matter who the commentator was. And Russell Westbrook taking a roll off the bench for this team. Like, guys, come on, cut it out. Cut it out. We know what, like, can you include the context of what, what, like, led to all of that happening? There was, and I agree with this. Like, I know it went a little far.

The meanness went a little far with Russ. I agree. The meanness absolutely went too far. It did. But, like, also so did his stubbornness. It did. And he's also, you know, you're making like $45 million. And like we are talking about a game.

I know that like a person's feelings and about their very public facing job. It's kind of inextricable. Like I understand all that. But I think, yeah, to act like he was, to act like he was like willingly like jumping into this role, which I do, I do think it's inevitable that there are going to be narrative forces that surround every award. I got in a big conversation with the guy at the gym about like the MVP award. That stuff, it's just going to happen.

So before we move on to the modern candidates for this award, which we are going to talk about here in just a moment. We're going to take a break. So the first player here that we're going to talk about here is, and we'll rattle through these, but like Malcolm Brogden, I think kind of more fits the, he's not exactly the Bill Walton thing, but I mean, it's not terribly far off. He's a player who absolutely was like starter quality.

He had his role sort of, if you look at his basketball reference over the course of his seasons, and he came into the league as a guy who'd been flagged for like medical issues, potential medical issues. issues and that has kind of played out. He's at injury troubles, but he's someone who is sort of, he fits that mold of like, he's not like somebody who has this wild offensive output that is like more suited to be in an inefficient, a lineup that's you're more willing to like tolerate inefficiency, you know what I mean? Like that's kind of what we're talking about with some of these like flame throwers score type guys. Brogden is a very, very qualified starter who is

serving in a role that Boston saw that they needed in the final. last year. This was a team that was we knew they were wobbly with the ball in certain situations. We knew that they needed more playmaking. We knew that they could probably use one more perimeter defender. Brogden is doing well in that role. I find it kind of interesting that the on-off numbers are a little noisy with him. I think they were like negative 7.1 with him on, but I don't feel like that totally matches my eye test. Can I ask you what you've thought about Brogden this season so far? How do you like, do you think that he's fit into this role?

Do you think he should win? I think it's kind of the, we'll save our, we'll save our picks for the end. But he's kind of like the opposite of the Flamethrower thing, right? Like he's supposed to come in and give the offense a sense of peace almost. Like he's one of the lowest turnover guards in the NBA historically. He's a shooter. He can defend. Like he's hypothetically someone who could fit in on both ends.

Like, he's not someone who I see, like, really being in that, like, like, there are there are guys who are six men who are, like, good enough then that they end up being, like, the finishers. And I think, I think it's been a little bit rocky for him, you know? And I think it probably speaks to the difficulty of the role. But I think, I think overall, when you consider, you know, the fact that, you know, this is obviously an adjustment for him, you'd never actually come. come off the bench before in his career and he was like willingly doing that he's just shooting

the lights out of the ball too uh career high career high third percentage and he started basically every game prior if i'm not mistaken or something close to it yeah not every game but like he was he was a starter for like the last four years you know totally um pretty much from the time that we knew that he was a really good NBA player he's been a starter um but yeah i'm not i'm not really sure what those on and off numbers could be saying honestly um yeah Let's move on to, this is a guy. I feel like, you know, you expressed your passion for Taj Gibson. I'm sensing an enthusiasm for Norm Powell from you.

Is that, am I on or off about that? I mean, Powell is a great example of the utility guy thing, right? He's someone who can be a starter. But I think as a sixth man, like, he's a good secondary creator. He's like, and this is a Clippers offense that has just needed someone to get something going at any point, right? Like, they're kind of just desperate for creation at some points, especially when, like, with the injuries that they've dealt with.

But I think, like, the thing that I've admired most about the season that Powell has had is how much he's played this role where he, he's had to toggle between a lot of different things. And he's trying to stay consistent within it. And I think, like, you know, he really struggled early in the season the first few months. And then he kind of found his way. And, like, in that lineup where, A, you've got a whole. bunch of new players. You've got Kauai who is going to have the load management stuff going on.

PG's had injuries. And you've just got all of these wings. And you've got Tai Liu who is just always toggling the starting lineup and the rotation just trying to figure out who works. Norman Powell has been like one of the few guys that's stuck in the rotation that entire time. And has over the last few months done a really, really good job of it too. Like he's, he's shooting the lights out. And, you know, he's, he's, he's, he's bringing 17.2. off the bench and the and the clippers like lead the NBA in total bench points like he's a big reason for that um and like he's kind of like the like what you were talking about earlier where like guy will come in play with the starters and then kind of lead the second unit he's just I think he's

perfectly suited for it yeah and like you said the flux has been made this even more interesting for him like Powell um players being in and out of the lineup like you said and whenever in the clippers have a lot of these kind of guys who are like willing to to seize available shots whenever that happens. You know what I mean? I feel like they have several of these dudes. And I think navigating that is tricky. We know he's a guy who can shoot who likes to shoot when he gets going

and they hit him when he gets going. His bond, that article that you sent, I think he said, Andrew Grief wrote it about his bond with Tailu. I think that that, the sort of trust in, we'll call it God's plan, God being Tileu, trust that this is heading in a situation that's beneficial for him is probably helping. And I know they talked a little bit about trying to get him to work

towards passing the ball more out of those like downhill cannonball rolling downhill kind of close out drives that he's sort of known for, I feel like, because he's such a powerful guard. I went and tried to like vet to see if that was true. Not acting like Second Spectrum is like 100% always correct to a T. But like you can see. like a little bit of a trend per 100 possessions

where he's getting off the ball when he drives because that driving power is so significant. Like I think when he first came into the league, maybe he was deferring a little bit. You saw him more with the Raptors than I did. He was actually, rookie Norman Powell was just a total badass. Like he was the only guy in those playoffs

that felt like he had it. You know? Right. Paul Pierce always said those rhaps. after his teams didn't have it. And, like, Norman Powell had it. He was not, he wasn't afraid of any shy. Fearlessness.

Yeah, totally. Like, totally, like, fearlessness. And, like, never, I think he, like, still exemplifies those things. And, like, that's what kind of makes him good at this role as well. Like, he's kind of got the perfect balance of, like, well, he's trying to find that perfect balance of, like, yes, you want to try to, you know, just catapult to the rim and every possible opportunity. Like, just, like, you know, run off a, run off, like, a screen at the free throw line and drive.

And that's, that's like always been the player that he's, that he's been. Like, he was never really that deferential. He was like a great six man for that team too. And like, honestly, I think by the end of the season, a lot of rappers fans felt like he should be a starter. Yeah, I think, yeah, this hits on a lot of the balance that I think is tricky about this, is that, like, trying to find someone who has that just, like, unfazed confidence that is still going to perform and not poison your team. And I mean, we're pointing to, like, good examples of this.

There are examples throughout the league of this not working. You know, these are the good examples, which speaks to how tricky it is. But yeah, so he's seen some evolution there. I think that he definitely, I could see him winning this. We'll move on to the next one. Tyrese Maxy is the other one who has, you know, has moved into a role. And he's somebody that we've seen, he and Tyler Hero kind of have some interesting. I know they're both UK guys.

It's not why I bring it up. But I'd like the hero was a guy who was sort of on that precipice. of it seemed like he could expand into like primary option territory potentially and the way that kind of the way that Devin Booker did over the years. I guess their player archetypes are a little similar, but Maxy was somebody who was showing indication. The question for him has always been like, can he evolve into a playmaker? We knew that he could come off like. And I think moving him into like a secondary situation coming off of the bench enabled him because the touches were just inevitably. there's only so many, you know, bites of the apple when you're in the game with like Harden and

Embed. And we talked about this early in the year with like Mo Tequila when he came on. Moving him into the second unit, I think, you know, he willingly, I mean, he willingly took that on, right? I'm pretty positive. Yeah, he actually brought it up to Doc himself, which I think like that that should give him some points as well. And they're 18 and 4 since. So like earlier in the season, when we did that podcast, we talked about how the Sixers had all the talent in the world, but how were they actually going to find a way to maximize it. And with like the career season that Melton is having, I think it just kind of makes perfect sense for Maxie to be coming off the bench.

And it's, it's worked out really well, especially as of late. Like he had, he had an incredible game last night. Did you watch that game last night? No, I haven't gotten to watch that one yet. But the defensive part of it, I think is the thing that was that needed tweaking pretty badly. Like I think that having putting Melton in there, I think gives them like a switch ability, the ball pressure, the connectivity.

They just, they needed that guy in there, you know, specifically, I think. And I think it serves both purposes. You get Maxie the chance to do the thing, which he can get wide hot and give you a bunch of points, like you said. But it also supports defensively your first unit, which is often why these decisions are made, you know. I think you kill, you serve two purposes with that move and it's awesome when the player's willing to do it. Maxi, it sounds like he was. Yeah. Yeah.

And it was interesting also to like hear him talk about it over the last few weeks. You know, when he first started it, you know, it was like, yeah, it is actually a lot different. He actually started using a heat pack so that he wouldn't come in totally cold. And he was talking about how like, you know, he entered the game. You got a quick pass from Joe who was like, you know, shoot it. And he was kind of just like, dude, I just got in the game. And that's sort of like that, that thing that you have to navigate of coming into the game and immediately putting on pressure and changing the game. And I think it especially applies for Maxi, who is a really quick player.

And once you get him and Melton in the game at the same time, it just totally shifts things for Philadelphia. They go from being a half-court team to just trying to run more. And I think Hardin's been really good in that too. Like he's looking up the floor a lot more. If those two are in the game, he's looking up and seeing like, okay, who's like or any of those guys running to the other side of the court? Like, can I hit him really quick? And like that just unlocks a new side of the Sixers offense. And it gives you a different look again, right?

Like if the Sixers come into a game and they're kind of plotting and the half court style isn't working and like or like the defense is sort of sussed it out like Maxi's a great guy to have come in and like just shifts things a little bit. And it's it's working out a lot as of late. But, you know, he talked about, you know, just being like there's just really like interesting press conferences that he's had as of late about, you know, the mental hurdle of it. Like just, you know, just being human dealing with a dealing with a new role and like also you'll like this. Um, so coach Cal would text him just say, you know, like like cut out all the clutter in your mind and just play. And like that was something that he said before like a great game that he had, but like also something that he used to say to him at Kentucky.

Um, so, you know, Hal's big on clutter. He talks about clutter a lot. It's one of his. Yeah, tired. Oh, you know, it's like, uh, you think it's tired. No, I mean, it's a, cow talks.

I don't know. It's, it's a function of like, you just like tune it out. I think I tuned him out in probably like 2010. I don't think I really listened to anything Cal said. Anyway, I didn't mean to get on that. But no, the clutter part of it, yeah, I'm sure it was a big adjustment for him. Yeah, but it's worked out really well for the Sixers, though. And, like, I think they finally found, like, the right offensive balance that they need.

And, like, they can play, they play mostly a similar style, but they can play, like, in different variations of it now. And, I mean, we'll do an episode on The Sixers at some point because I'm really, like, I'm really fascinated by how they've actually found an offensive identity. And we kind of had questions about that. So we won't get too, too into it. But yeah, I think, I think, like, Maxi fits right into, like, another ideal archetype that we've talked about, right? Like, he's not, like, a Manu Genobley level talent, but he's definitely starting caliber. And he was in the midst, like, he's dealt with injuries this season.

But for the most part, his career, since he's gone to the NBA, he's been on the up. And, like, his averages, like, he basically doubled them this season. And it was kind of like if you were looking to look at it from like an individual perspective, you'd want to continue to start. Like you'd want to keep building on it. But he kind of like was willing to undercut that. And his averages are down since that because he is playing less minutes. But he's just kind of been totally happy to be in this position.

And the Sixers are also like a legitimate championship threat that can fine tune their offense as a result. So yeah, like I give him a ton of props for that. Yeah. So coming out of this discussion, kind of talking about these candidates, it's, do you want to pick one? Do you want to make a prediction? I don't, I mean, I don't, Maxi's shift in this late in the season,

I think might be something that might work against him. If he had done this like, you know, if this had been a moment one thing, I don't know, would that make a difference? What do you think? So that's what I was going to say. Like, right now, he's like the third most likely player to win. Like, it's Brogden, then Powell, then Maxie.

And the rules that, you know, you have to start, you have to come off the bench more games than you start. He's actually, he's three games away from, having the same amount of starts as coming off the bench. So he's not far off from that. It's not a lot of games, but I think like if this continues for the entire season, I really,

I want to go with Maxie just because of the level of impact, like the different style that he brings, like all the things that we just talked about. I feel like it's completely in the spirit of the award. And I just, I love it. I want to reward it. So that's what I'm going to go with.

What do you got? That would be the highest starting percentage, I think ever potentially. I mean, it'd be really, really, really, really high. I saw something where they were saying, like Lamar Odom was like in the high 40s when he won percentage-wise. I like it, I like it too. I would be for it if they, you know,

if that didn't play too much into like the negative side of him potentially winning it for the voters, especially on something that works, you know? Like I don't necessarily think that you need to reward every, every award with like a situation that works. But in this situation, I do, I do like that. I would, I would like it if Maxie won it. And I mean, I guess depending on what the clippers do, can kind of affect how we feel.

But I feel like we both are softer on like Brogden potentially winning the award. It seems like we're kind of been lockstep on that, right? A little. I don't know. I feel like he's kind of fallen into this role where it's like natural for him to be the sixth man. Like he's, like I want Derek White as the starter. And like while Derek White can't necessarily do the things that Brogden can do, it just feels a little weird.

Also, I don't know. Like, this is unfair. Like, this is like, I don't want to be punitive about this. But at the same time, like, he came, he joined the Celtics and he joined as a sixth man. There's almost, like the narrative part kind of figures into it for me, like the poetry of someone saying, here, I will relinquish my starting spot. Oh, you like this. You like the self-sacrificial narrative. Okay, that's part of your criteria.

I see that. I like that. Also, isn't Grant Williams, they're six-man? That's the argument I was making to you. I think that's the case for a lot of teams that have six men of the year candidate. You could kind of pick. Like, there was the Clippers, like, Co-Trez Lou here. And, like, there's a deep team just kind of naturally produce the sense that there are a lot of guys that could be six-men.

Like, I think that, like, if things went a little bit different for the Clippers, like, they would probably have that argument, too. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, I think we got to the bottom of this. Anything else you want to plug or talk about before we get out of here? No, I'm pretty much good. I'm pretty much good. I would just be very curious how everybody feels about how you dealt with that waitress situation.

Hornet, like, you didn't weigh in. Am I sicko? What do you think? I don't think so, man. I don't think that reaches sicko level. I'm with Syret. You know, it's more, it's more like needily, you know? It's like more like stirring the drink a little bit, you know?

I wouldn't call you a sicko because of that. I'm a needler. I'm not going to act like I'm not. I like to, you know, I don't know. It's all in good fun, though. I'm not mean-spirited about it. I just like to cut up with people. So anyway, it was good to see you.

Good to catch back up again after such a fun All-Star Weekend. Excited to talk more about these awards with you folks. Let us know who you think the sixth main of the year award. And then talk to us about your philosophy. Hit me up on Twitter and hit sear it up, blow up her mentions with a lot of you know just a shit stirring kind of stuff all right so uh so it is good to see you i'll uh i'll catch you catch you next time