The Ringer NBA Show - What Are the Lakers and Warriors Doing? Plus, the Lauri Markkanen Sweepstakes and Dallas Reloads. | Group Chat

Episode Date: July 3, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos look at what’s going on with the most head-scratching teams of the offseason, such as the Lakers (03:35), Warriors (16:54), Jazz (32:30), and Bucks (48:37). After, they discuss the Mavs’ offseason signings and where those moves put them in the West (54:03). Finally, they end on Donovan Mitchell’s extension with the Cavs and whether him having organizational say is a good idea (66:02). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out rg-help.com to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, football fans, we know that the NFL offseason can seem long and dark, but the Ringer NFL show is here to shine a light on all the big training camp developments and front office news around the league. Join me, Shield Capadia, and a rotating cast of Ringer favorites that includes Noura Preciati, Stephen Ruiz, Austin, Gail, and Lindsay Joan throughout the summer months, and stay up to date on what your favorite team is cooking up for the 2024 season. subscribe to the ringer nfl show on spotify or wherever you get your podcast and follow ringer nfl on instagram and ticot and at ringer nfl on x and youtube welcome to group chat i am justin verrier

and joining me as always rob mahoney big waz we are here on what is it day four of mba free agency do we count sunday as a full day if anything this just feels like we're pretty much over at this point, Rob, which is a very strange feeling at this point. Especially when day one got off to such a slow start. But turns out days two and three, and even into the morning here of day four, have been quite active. Also, it still feels strange to be doing free agency news, not from Vegas, right? Like, because that used to be the thing, like, it was happening concurrent with the

beginning of NBA Summer League and now Summer League gets to be its own entity and free agency. also and also free agency being wrapped up by the fourth. Remember when NBA porters used to complain about having a work? You know, look at their phones and scarf hot dogs at the same time. Was, why would you say this out loud? All the shit is going to go down. You just jinxed us on two fronts. We were hoping to have a peaceful, enjoyable summer league,

and now we're not because something ridiculous is going to happen. And now I can't even enjoy my July 4th because you just jinx the hell out of this thing. Right. Yeah. I was going to say, reporters still complain about July 4th. And if nothing happens on this July 4th, they will complain about the last time they had to work on July 4th. That's just how this works.

That is fair. That is fair. But yeah, it's been an interesting offseason thus far. Obviously, the period where teams were allowed to negotiate with their own free agents, kind of took a lot of stuff off the board here. But I'm in the place now where enough has happened, where I think it's fair to start wondering about certain teams that are having pretty perplexing off seasons. So I want to first kick it off here

with a bunch of teams that I'm calling the, what's going on here? Teams? I really workshopped this and came up with a very creative solution here. But there's a lot of teams where I'm like, what's going on here? And so that's what the bit is. Isn't that true of most teams?

Aren't you kind of looking at most teams sideways and going, we sure about that? What's going on there? How are you approaching the apron? you know, there's, there's a lot of curiosity going around. I'll put it that way. Yes. And I think maybe some of it could be because of the apron.

Maybe, like, we're just not used to the rhythms of when and how these things are going to happen. But, yeah, there's just like a lot of perplexion, I would say, out there. It's perplexion a word? I don't think so, but we're going to give it to you. Perplexity? All right. Well, we got to start with the Lakers, first and foremost, who before we came on here, signed LeBron James to a two-year maximum contract.

He did not get any of his preferred mid-level exception candidates. Once Jonas Valenchunis was off the board, he decided to take the money, it seems like. In addition, so two years, $104 million. Got a player option there, so it is a typical LeBron one plus one throwback. He got a no trade clause on top of that. And so we got a lot of beautiful social graphics suggesting that the only two players in the NBA right now, with no trade clauses, LeBron James and Bradley Beal.

Of course. Which is, I guess, pretty appropriate, considering that LeBron James, one of the foremost players in the NBA and Bradley Beal, the shining example of probably the second apron and all the other consternation to come. Max contracts, all of that stuff.

He is the shining example of some of the quirks of how we pay people in the NBA. He is a shining example of a guy in the NBA. That's for sure. That's true. So as it stands right now, the Lakers have done nothing except bring back last year's

team plus their draft picks. I think they also sign Max Christie, a guy who's done, let's be frank, virtually nothing in the NBA. So they've maintained the young core, which I guess you can call just a grouping of young players. I don't know if they're

particularly good young players, but on top of that, Rob, the Lakers, as it stands right now when we're recording this at 943 Pacific time, AM, are about a million dollars into the second apron. So I have to ask, what's going on here with the Lakers? I think they're more or less running it back, to be honest with you. The one variable there is what happens with D'Angelo Russell, who there have been reports suggesting he may not be long for the Lakers,

that there are some trade possibilities that the team might explore. I'm looking around the league and trying to figure out what those destinations are and not seeing a lot of obvious candidates, especially when you think about what would actually allow the Lakers to shed salary

while trading DeAngelo Russell. That's a tough combination to find, much less teams that are just, you know, champing at the bit to get Delo on their roster. Otherwise, I kind of think this is what you got. And LeBron signing for the two-year max or the one-plus-one max

takes the full mid-level off the table. as you said, Jonas was gone but beyond that as we talked about in the last pot they're just like a limited number of actual needle

movers for the Lakers in the first place with that slot and so this is what you end up with more or less the same team reasonable people a.k.a. me and you can disagree as to Max Christy's merits.

I actually like that signing like them bring him back I think he's going to be a good player but otherwise I think they're counting on J.J. Reddick to clean some stuff up to get some of the low hanging fruit to make the team a little bit better and otherwise just kind of hoping

and praying that AD and LeBron can stay as healthy as they did last year, that everything can work more or less as well as it did last year and go from there. I think the only reason we're kind of confused by what the Lakers did is because every offseason and every trade deadline, the media convinces itself that

the Lakers are going to make a big-ass move. And it has not happened basically since Russell Westbrook. And I think that's, for a reason. I think they learned some lessons from the Westbrook situation. And yes, they could at the deadline this year again, you know, trade a bunch of future picks and make a big swing. But like, the fact that they haven't done any of this stuff shows like what direction they're in. Like, there have been reports that they offered more money to Clay Thompson than Dallas

did. Those reports are true. So they did legitimately want to try to get Clay Thompson in there. But Even that, like, you can't consider that to be some move that makes the Lakers closer to being as good as the thunder, the nuggets, the wolf. Like, no, nobody thinks that. Well, closer, incrementally closer, if not meaningfully closer. Sure, incrementally closer, sure. It's better to have Clay Thompson than not to have Clay Thompson. Right. In the sense that putting on my sneakers makes me almost as tall as shack, right?

Correct. Like, it's just not actually true. I think, yeah, this is who the Lakers are. Like, they had to bring LeBron back, duh, made all the sense in the world to bring him back at his number. They couldn't just afford to let LeBron just leave over a contract. And they desperately needed this got to be back. He's still clearly their best player.

But in terms of the moves they could make, they're hamstrung. By the fact that their best player is 40. Okay. And, you know, they have no mechanism to make this way better than what it is. So they're playing out the string of the LeBron era. And I guess we're just conditioned to think, they should be trying to win a championship as soon as possible, blah, blah, blah. But there's no realistic way of making that happen.

Like, you can take a moonshot and mortgage your future, but, like, it would make no sense to do so. Yeah, I guess I'm perplexed probably because they're leaning. into the youth movement and the developmental track is almost as extreme as going the Russell Westbrook route is going for the big swing trade. Like there isn't some sort of like marginal upgrade that they've made at this point, which I think would be reasonable for instance. Like we talked about, hey, maybe trading for like a Dorian, Finney Smith, et cetera. Like, let's just improve on the fringes here because I don't think what they had last year really

worked on a level that they at least aspire to be. Like, Is there some in-between move that could still be made that gets us to the point? Because I don't know. I just don't think like the Dalton Connect pick. I like some of the other guys, young guys that they have here. Maybe Austin-Reeze plays a little bit better next year. Maybe Gabe Bidson gives them anything. But other than that, there isn't really much to bank on.

And so I almost wonder, could they just strike a balance somehow, as opposed to going in either direction full bore? I don't even know that they're leaning into the young core so much as, they're just kind of saying that because it's all they've got. I don't see it as a philosophical change. I'll put it that way. I think they have some young players on their roster who they do want to invest in.

That was more or less the case before. They just don't have a lot to offer. That's the issue. When you're pitching Clay Thompson as a free agent and he doesn't want to come play for you, that's a problem if you're the Lakers. That is your huge market advantage that you've been able to mine time and time again.

And not only are we seeing that, they've been pitching veteran head coaches to come beyond JJ Redick staff and been getting turned down. There are lots of people who are just kind of like looking at the Lakers situation and thinking, you know what, maybe not for me. I'm going to leave that over to the side.

I'm going to let them do their thing and I'm going to respectfully take this job in media or go play for the Dallas Mavericks or do whatever it is that they want to do that doesn't come with some of the noise and some of the pressures that comes with both being a Laker and with being LeBron James's teammate. By the way, just so people understand, right, the Lakers, there were signing trades out there to get done, you know, Demar de Rosen, say, as an example.

And, you know, they would have been hard-capped or whatever. They would have had to move some salary. They would have had to do work of managing a roster. But they would have had to do that. Like, doing that would take, like, actually believing in those moves as things you have. absolutely need to do. And clearly, all the parties involved don't feel that way. No matter what LeBron is saying publicly about,

he lets it leak, like, his list of people that he's going to take a pay cut for and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the bottom line is LeBron really wanted something done outside of the clay thing, which we can get back into with the clay. But, like, if he really wanted something done in terms of Jonas Valanchun as being on the team, The Lakers could have got it done. Okay? Obviously.

You think they can compete with the Wizards? Right. Obviously, you know, LeBron seems to be using his influence in the organization in other directions. Hmm. And so, like, and I think that's connected to why maybe a Clay Thompson turns down more money. Why big coaches don't want to come. You know, big-name coaches don't want to come and be assistance to this thing. it just seems like their priorities are like in other directions that aren't like,

yo, let's be as good as possible to win as many games as possible during next season. Yeah, maybe the writing is just on the wall, because the signs are pretty bad. The fact that LeBron didn't even seem like he had anywhere that made sense to go to. It wasn't like there were just like, oh, these other suitors that he's turning down here. It wasn't even like a typical, like, frothing at the mouth sort of LeBron for agency where it's like everyone was almost tired with the whole song and dance to when he opted out or even threatened free agency earlier in the summer. Everyone's like, eh. And now it's just like

none of the options that he even wanted didn't seem like they were realistic options. It just almost feels like this is getting progressively sadder than I expected it to be because I think the Lakers are probably better at this stage of LeBron's career than it would be for any other approximate Hall of Fame caliber guy, right? Like, even like late career, some of the other Hall of Famers that we've known and loved. Kobe Prime example, right?

They were barely getting by and they were a functionally soft tanking. But it's just, this is just like ultimately becoming like a mismatch of mid-tier veterans and young guys and LeBron James. And so I'm just having a hard time processing like what the Lakers are at this moment.

see, I don't think it's that hard because it's the same thing that they've been for two or three years now which is a pretty good ultimately play-in level team. That's what they are and what they're going to be. And also, we have to separate

what the Lakers and LeBron. These are two separate entities. Like, whether we like it or not, LeBron sees himself as some brand business unto itself. And I think he's making decisions with that in mind, which is not to say

Braun's not going to go out there and kill himself to win for the Lakers next year. He's going to. But the bottom line is if LeBron was putting winning championships and the pursuit of championships above everything else, he would not be resigning with the Lakers right now.

He would have forced his way to another team. And by the way, he could have gotten paid. Like there's ways to do this. shit. Like, we don't have to pretend that, yo, the only way a free agent gets paid is to move into somebody's cap space. There's ways to get, I don't know, Utah and all of their cap space involved in a sign and trade, get a third team involved.

There's ways to do all of this stuff. LeBron clearly doesn't want to do that. He wants to be in L.A. Yeah. He wants to film his movie because y'all know he's doing a little last dance thing. He can do that anywhere. You can move the crew around. He's had camera crews following for three years.

He wants to make sure that's fire. I thought you were talking about Save the Last Dance for some reason. I was like, is LeBron in another movie? I swear to God, I'm not even joking. I would watch the fuck out of that. Can we get Save the Last Dance remake with LeBron? If LeBron say, you're forcing my way to New York, I'm forcing my way to Philly, I'm forcing, like, it would have happened. it would have happened.

If teams got these sense that LeBron would be committed to a championship pursuit with them, they would have pursued it. But everybody got to hint. No, he's in L.A. He's chilling. He's getting his son drafted. He's making movies.

He's a media mogul. That's what he's doing. And that's what you're seeing with the Lakers. That's why it feels a little confusing. Well, and part of the reason teams were getting that impression and reading those messages and tea leaves from him was once it be

became clear that the Lakers were willing to draft Brani in the second round. That was kind of that as far as the LeBron Free Agency part as it went. It's over. You know? Yeah, it's just a little more late season Mad Men than I was expecting where everyone's just like, oh, like, working isn't the most important thing. Like, what else do I have in my life? This is very telling about you, Justin.

Yeah, I don't disagree. I definitely understand where he's at. But I guess this is probably a good of transition as any to get into the Warriors side of thing here because Steph isn't quite at that point, but he may be just as boxed into this weird in-between zone as LeBron is now because the Warriors, after basically shoving Clay Thompson off the boat unceremoniously, have made a string of transactions that I think you can only describe as like mildly intriguing. They get De Anthony Melton on the mid-level exception. Like that deal, right? One-year deal. Seems like a solid addition. Kyle Anderson, 27 million over three years in a signing trade.

Feels like a pretty typical Warriors type of guy, ball mover, smart player. Like, oh, he's felt like a Warriors type of guy. Okay. Buddy Healed might come in a signing trade. We'll see that hasn't confirmed, but that's in the mix there. Also hired Terry Stott's and Jerry Stackhouse. the Terry and Jerry Buddy comedy that no one knew that they needed,

but I'm looking forward to that. Bruce Fraser going to the back of the bench all of a sudden, which is very sad in almost like a changing on the guard that I wasn't expected, but like, I don't hate all these moves. It's just, it feels strange. And so I have to ask again, Rob,

like, what's going on here? I mean, I think we unpacked a lot of it with the Clay situation. And once Chris Paul was waived, once those two things happen, there's only so much that the Warriors can realistically do with the exceptions that they have at their disposal. And getting Anthony Melton for the mid-level

is a good bit of business. He's a really good two-way player, a wing who's going to fit what the Warriors do and how they play. He's going to be really important for them defensively in particular, picking up a wide range of players, but I would think a lot of lead guards. I like all the guys that they are getting slash might potentially get. It just doesn't probably take them anywhere.

And this is, I think, what we're crystallizing. is there is a clear point of demarcation between the top tier or two in the West and all of these teams, like the Warriors, like the Lakers, maybe even the Sons are in this category as they kind of continue to fill out their roster and shore up some of their weaknesses. All of these sort of also-ran type teams in the West

are going to be bumping up against a different kind of ceiling, a different kind of like almost a hard cap in terms of personnel. If you can't make dramatic changes, you're just not really going to be, that competitive with the Thunder and the Wolves and the Mavs and the Nuggets. Those are really good, really stacked teams.

And it's going to take more than De Anthony Melton to get there, respectfully. They got in on the Paul George sweepstakes. It didn't work out. They seriously pursued it. Obviously, there was mutual interest. It didn't work out. And they moved on. Like, at the end of the day, you can't just pull a rabbit out of a hat, guys.

Like, we know who the impact players in the NBA are. if there's no avenue to bring one in, then you go about doing the business of being an actual NBA team and you know you improve again incrementally and on the margins. But yes, have they improved it? I guess if you're the biggest warriors,

optimist like a Ben Cruz, you might say to yourself, hey, listen, Dremont maybe might not go psychopath next year. We'll have our full complimenter players all year long. The young guys, Moody,

you know, Kaminga, these guys, Kaminga took a leap last year. Maybe you'll take another one this year. You know, Trace Jackson Davis, like, oh, you can be optimistic. But do we think they're going to be at the upper echelon of the West? Of course not. Yeah, it's almost like they pivoted to all the guys

that, like, they've had interest over the years. Like, oh, maybe they just didn't have a high enough draft pick. And so they're almost like living the life that they couldn't when they were a top tier, like, we only signed superstar level of team. I guess this probably brings us to the Lori Marketing sweepsticks because he is kind of the last big mover on the chess board here, unless you want to count like Brandon Ingram or maybe DeMarterson, who's still out there in free agency, Miles Bridges too, I guess. But it seems like a lot of teams are almost like putting a lot of stock if they are going to go out and swing a big move in marketing. What do you guys think about him in Golden State? Because on the one hand, I'm like, if this becomes a horse,

race, do the Warriors really have the assets in order to go out and get him? On the other hand, I guess you could argue Warriors draft picks far out in the way might have more value than even a team that's willing to provide you with several of those. So I don't know. I guess it would take mortgaging the future, Rob, in order to bring market into Golden State. Is he the type of guy you think would be worth doing it? So this is the tension. From the perspective of trying to maximize the remaining years of one of the best players to ever play the game in Steph Curry. The answer is obviously yes.

You do whatever it takes to honor a player like that who's been with your franchise the whole way. Makes all the sense in the world. Will Lowry Markinen alone put you within this contending class or near the top of it? Probably not.

And I say that as someone who really likes Lowry. And I think part of the reason we talk about him so much is he is a great fit for so many different teams. Like the level of shooting and size and mobility

that he has is immensely valuable. It's just that the Warriors have so many problems. It's not like you can't just plug in Lowry marketing and fix everything that's going weird or wrong with that team or all the ways in which they're lacking right now. They need size. They need ball handling. They need playmaking.

They need somebody who's going to be able to play minutes with Draymond Green loses his mind. They need all of these things at once. And Lowry can give you some of that in shades, but maybe not enough. And that's where as a front office or as a, a team, you start to get a little precious about what the idea of your future can be, even knowing that you want to do right by Steph.

I think Lowry would be an excellent warrior, but he wouldn't make them good enough to be in the top tier because what they're mainly missing is people who can create themselves for themselves and others outside of Steph. And last year, because Andrew Wiggins is now, you know, comatose, slash on a milk carton, whichever metaphor you want to use, they were counting on comminga. They were counting on a clearly diminished

Clay Thompson. They were counting on a rookie Pajemski. They were counting on these guys in big spots to try to create for themselves and others outside of what Steph, the huge burden he's already carrying. And Larry, for all of his strengths, that's not really his bag.

He's beautiful at working off of others at not needing to soak up the bulk of a bunch of possessions in terms of dribbling and all of this stuff and isolating and stuff. And again, that stuff would be very useful in the Golden State Steve Kerr system. But I don't think he would take them to the stratosphere. Yeah, a seven-foot version of Clay who can attack off the dribble against the closeout and actually finish and dunk inside. That would look beautiful. I just don't know if it takes them as far as they need to go.

Yeah, I thought the most telling thing in the reported Paul George discussions was that they held stuff on Kaminga in large part because they wanted to have enough left over for when Paul George came there. And I think that is the crucial thing with the Warriors. It's like, yeah, they actually have some pretty intriguing young guys like Pajemski, Trace Jackson Davis,

Kaminga, Moody. I don't think this is the two timeline tracks, that they had hoped for, but they have a cadre of young guys that are probably more intriguing than, for instance, like what the Lakers have that have proven more. But if you trade all of those guys, then what's left

around to play with Steph other than Lori Market and Draymond Green. And honestly, he's like kind of the flip side of bringing Draymond back. Like, he provides so much for that defense, but the fact that he's practically a one-way player at this point outside of what he does and kind of the ballet with Steph and the handoffs, like,

it really kind of handstrings them. he has to be one of the foundational guys left over there. So I don't know. I just, I don't think a big move really works when you actually do the math of it all. This is where the chain of events that either starts with the Dremont Green punch or maybe it goes even further back than that really just kills the Warriors. Like trading Jordan Poole for Chris Paul and having to give up even more stuff to make

that happen. and then not trading Chris Paul for anything and letting his contract expire and then not resigning or sign in trading or flipping Clay Thompson ahead of time for anything and letting him expire. That, like, all of those moves colliding is what leads the Warriors into exactly the predicament

you're talking about Justin, where they do have good young guys, but they are, it turns out very instrumental to what they do, and they almost cannot give them up if they want to maintain a full, complete team. Yeah, and it's some self-awareness too. which I appreciate, right? When it's like, all right, we want to get in for Paul George.

Paul George is 33 now. I hate to break it to people. He is not this on-ball kill-you guy anymore. He's just not that. He will, yo, he can create space, you know, at like 17 feet. He's still huge and long. And, like, he creates a little bit of separation against a one-on-one. He can pretty efficiently make a nice mid-refercially.

make a nice mid-ranger, slightly contested. He can make some tough shots. He's obviously a great shooter, all of that. But Paul George don't turn the corner on people anymore when he gets downhill. Like, it's finishing at the basket. It's not incredible. So, like, it's an awareness that, like, man, if we don't even got comminga to supplement this stuff in terms of after step, who gets to do this?

Paul George is not it. Now, let's say in some alternate universe, right, the Boston Celtics had flamed out in the playoffs. And Jalen Brown was suddenly on the market. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Jaylon Brown, still in his 20s, still cooking people. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's get Kaminga in there, let's blah, blah, blah, let's whatever. Fuck it. Like, it's Jaylen Brown. But, you know, Paul George at 30-something, like some of the guys that come up, these guys ain't going to move the needle until it's just mortgage the rest of your future completely for them. You know, knowing damn well, like, you can look Stefan and I and be like, this dude ain't going to change

our fortunes. Like, we know this. And so I think they're playing it smart too. I think this is an important point that we need to clarify as far as all of the apron mayhem and terror that's going around. I don't know that any of us on this podcast are advocating for teams in the Warriors position, for example, to run head first at the second apron. If you are not fundamentally good enough, the spending isn't really the issue.

the teams that we are concerned with as far as the apron goes are teams like the Nuggets that's a very good roster already in hand it doesn't take a lot of reimagining to think about how you might get back into a championship series

the Warriors have to do reimagining the Lakers will have to do reimagining those are teams that probably should not be hard charging into the aprons if they can avoid it and yet the Lakers kind of have the Warriors I think is the worst situation just because Steph is a few years younger

and thus has still this runway to be competing at a high level. The fact that he is not on the same level as some of the title contending teams in the West is a goddamn shame. And I guess it's a personal decision at a certain point whether or not you want to stick it out with one team your entire career. I personally don't really see why it would be such a big deal

for someone to just finish two to three years down the road with another team. But he seems unlike virtually any star we've seen since probably Dirk just resign to the fact that he will not ask out. And maybe the people in the Bay love him for that. But like, God damn, it's a shame because he should be, like, we should be talking about him, like, joining forces with Nicolet Yokic or something right now. I want to take some time out to appreciate Steph in a way because, you know,

the recent Caitlin Clark stuff has made me laugh. Because all of the people who are allied against this notion that, you know, this is actually a special player, like the hype around her is based on what she's doing on the court and it's incredible, actually remind me of myself at the beginning of the Steph phenomenon. Wow. I was very annoyed by it. I remember Stony Moe, my man. Like, I love Stony Moe. I remember hearing him talk about how like, yo, I introduced my kid, this stuff. It was cool. My kid was geek, blah, blah, blah.

He's like, and I just remember him saying, like, I don't know. The guy's, like, relatable. And I don't know why that's stuck in my craw. And I was like, what, Chris Paul isn't relatable? You know? Like, it was ridiculous. But, like, as the years go by, I've realized that, like, I was wrong. Like, Steph is actually special.

There is something special about the way he is managing his career. the way he's managing his brand, as disgusting as it is to say that. Like, there is something special about it. And I do think it has to do that he wasn't some cherry-picked since he was 12 years old, you know, child prodigy, Messiah, like, frankly, a lot of these dudes in the NBA. And you could tell by how they carry themselves, you know.

Steph is just, like, more normal. Yes, he grew up with a millionaire parent. Yes, I get that. but he didn't do the crazy AAU circuit. He didn't go to some big-time college program. He wasn't picked by one of the shoe companies from her early on age. And I think that makes him have different basketball values.

So the fact that he's not, you know, sort of chasing rings and chasing attention and chasing this, I can't really be mad. This is like sort of the downside of having the great, wholesome basketball story is that he's not being completely cynical about his career. man. Like, it's kind of, you know, for me, I can, I take the good with the bad in that. And maybe that's the reason that you do chase a trade for someone like Lowry to begin with

is not because it's going to make you an immediate title contender. But it makes Steph happier. It makes Steph happier. And it gives him something to play for. Like, we were talking about LeBron and his priorities and what he is valuing at this point in his career. For Steph, if retiring a warrior is something he wants to do, and it seems very much like it is. He even mentioned it in his kind of parting message to Clay Thompson on on social media that they didn't get to finish this thing out together, which is a genuine shame that those two guys didn't get to kind of write off into the sunset

as teammates. But if he wants to stay a warrior, improving his quality of life is an incredibly meaningful thing and a meaningful gesture to just the most important player in the history of your franchise, not to mention one of the best ever play. So if the Warriors don't get in on the Lowry Sweepsticks, or if they don't win it, I do want to talk about what the jazz are doing here, I have them on my list of confusing teams as well because so far they have oodles of cap space,

I think around 40 million, just under that. And the only moves that they've made thus far are they signed Drew Eubanks for two years at 10 million. Yep, got to do it. They waved Omer Yert 7, which I'm doing the cross right now and just boring one out.

And they are reportedly in sign and trade talks to send Chris Dunn to the Clippers. So I have to pull out my Brian Winhorst fingers right here and wonder what's going on here because with U-Banks, this is what they have in terms of big. They have Biggs. They have Walker Kessler. They have John Collins, who, God, he's going to stick in the league for 20 years and no one's going to know what he actually did in it.

U-Banks. Our man, Philip Kowski. who I'm sure everyone has heard a lot about in recent days. Hendrix, the recent draft pick, and Lowry Marketing. So that's a crowded front court with a lot of money left to do. And so I have to wonder, like, what's going on with Danny A's here? See, I wouldn't take any of that to mean that there is a Lowry Markening sweepstakes necessarily. The Jazz have shown they are perfectly willing to play Markinen with Collins and another big.

whether that's Kessler or Olinic or whoever they have on hand. So just because they got a lot of bodies, I don't think is nudging, Markin and out the door. But the broader question of what the jazz are doing is something we have been wrestling with for now, two full seasons and change, trying to figure out, like,

what is the direction of this team? To what extent is Lowry going to be a part of it? Or is he kind of the avenue toward turning the page and resetting things a little bit? He's the avenue. It kind of feels that way, just because he's getting to that point in his career where he's ready to be competing

for high level playoff series and actual games of meaning right now and when the jazz do kind of want to accelerate, it's still going to take them a couple years to get up to speed. I just don't know when they are going to actually put the pedal to the medal on that. We've seen no indication that they are surging forward

in any way. Have we seen anything, Was? No. So I think what they're doing is kind of similar to the OKC C thing. What you're seeing with the cab space, I think they're just renting it out, getting picks. You know, somebody's going to need to use this cab space eventually. Some team that has actual pursuits will rent it out, get picks, probably use that thing that we

rented it out for to get more picks a la, you know, Al Horford in Oklahoma City that turns into Campbell Walker, that tends to more picks and the more picks and the more picks, right? R-I-P, Kimball Walker, by the way. Rest of peace, yeah, my God, man. C-H-S-A-A-A. legend, he's finally retired. He's one of the last of the Mohicans in terms of impactful New York City basketball players. It makes me really sad, honestly. But, yeah, it seems like, look, they're like, they've told people, like, yo, you know, I think it was Zach Lowe that was like after they saw the, the Miles, not Miles, the McHale Bridges.

The McHale Bridges, Trey, they call teams like, hey, yo, if y'all want to do that for a lot. Lowry, like, it's there. Like, we're ready. We want to do that. I think they're just taking their time with it. And I think it has to do, you know, I made that joke about Popovich and Beaufort's job security. It's the same shit with Aange.

Like, they're not going anywhere. They're firmly entrenched in terms of their power in Utah so they can be as judicious as they want to be. The only confusing thing to me is that they refuse to get into the Wembee sweepstakes. that was just weird. Or maybe it was just like, look, we're not rushing into that. But like, they just refused to get in on the guy that everybody said was going to be the future of the league. That just seems weird to me.

But other than that, everything else makes all the sense in a world. You mean the fact that they didn't hardcore tank in order to be a position. They didn't do it fast enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. I think something is going to happen. Maybe it isn't marketing or at least it doesn't have to be marketing, but this is a lot of

bigs. And I think if like you were building a team around marketing, I think you would at least try to find a pathway for him to play more four rather than trying to stick him at three, which is what I think, Rob, you were suggesting that they were okay with doing. So I'm not saying they should, but they did. Can I ask you guys something related to this? Is there an in between of the extremes of Utah and what they shoot Utah and how O KC did it, what they were doing when they were bad and all their cap space and what Detroit just did with Tobias Harris. Like, is there like a nice threading the needle? And by Detroit, I mean like, Tobias Harris is not worth any of that money.

There's, there was, like, there's just no reason to do it. Like, they just literally just like, oh, let's spend our money on a vet. But it's just, like, it's not going to help them in any material way. So I'm not saying Utah should go out and do Tobias Harris, but like, is there an in-between level here? Well, they also don't have to because they weren't embarrassing enough that they have to go out inside anyone.

I think, to me, Harris is the hinky tax where it's like you were so bad that you actually have to show that you're trying to be competitive to your bosses. Yeah. There's a Calangelo running the Pistons right now. I wouldn't doubt it, honestly.

I do think the middle ground is if you can find a player, a veteran in that range, that maybe you have to overpay for slightly, but who is tradable? That's kind of the middle ground. Is this a player who would be attractive to a winning team and is on a deal that could make sense for a winning team? The Tobias Harris deal is not going to make sense for anyone who's trying to compete at a high level. They're just not going to have the money to ship back in a transaction like that.

But if you can get a veteran on a mid-level deal on a reasonable contract who could help a contender, even as a seventh or eighth or ninth guy trying to make a playoff run, that could be the middle ground. I just, I really don't know that the jazz are looking to do all that much. Maybe we'll be shocked and maybe Lauer will be moved in short order. I see this is more of a long-term thing. And maybe he's more of a guy we look at the trade deadline yet again and say, our team's looking to get in on him at that point in time.

But for what it is now, I see a lot of, you know, can you get Walker Kessler fully back on track? can you get Taylor Hendricks to be a meaningful part of this rotation? Like, what is the next step for Kianti, George? What are you seeing for Cody Williams? Is there a route for him to have immediate playing time? Those are sort of the big questions for the jazz to me more than are we going to see a Larry Mark and Trade in the next two to three weeks?

Yeah, I think if they push on a market and trade, I think it's more about taking advantage of the market at this point because it does feel like there are a couple teams that really want to make that one move to get into that elite tier of their conferences. I'm talking about like the Kings. I'm talking about like the Rockets. There are these teams that are the Pelicans, for instance, that are on the rise and feel like they've been like in that in-between zone

for a little too long. And I almost wonder if this coming after the Bridges trade was just, is more opportunism because it does feel like Lowry can swing the fortunes of some of those sorts of teams. And so Danny Aange always wanting to like really make the most of someone else's suffering. I could definitely see those things aligning here. Do any of those teams like interest you as a lory destination? Like, oh, man, if he's with the Kings and we're just like aggregating every intriguing Eastern European guy, like now we're getting back to the glory days.

I kind of actually like that as a working there. Are we including Finland as Eastern Europe? Where would you say it is? I mean, Scandinavia, no? Yeah, Scandinavia, boy. Come on now. I don't know if we were being that specific. I don't have my globe out here.

We're always being that specific. Well, it's because most of the good euros are Eastern European. Well, the ones who aren't black anyway. There's no doubt. Apologies to our Scandinavian overlords at Spotify. But look, that's the thing about the McHale Bridges trade. If you want to get that kind of return, who were, like, I don't know a lot about the, like, late-teens. Arizona Wildcats?

Did Lowry Marketing have a bunch of beloved college teammates I don't know about who are going to push for him to get five firsts in a potential deal? I think there's lots of teams that could use Larry Markinen to what we discussed earlier. I just don't know that there's the urgency that you got from the McHale Bridges deal of a team that, I think there's a different urgency

between the sort of listlessness you're describing among teams like the Pelicans, for example, versus the Knicks seeing themselves as being on the cusp of something and wanting to get that started as soon as possible. The Pelicans are looking for changes, but I don't know that they're looking

for this level of change. Everybody's wet dream was OKC. And I think for good reason, I think the complexity of OKC is how poor the franchise is in terms of cash. And this guy is due for a race pretty soon. Like, Chad Holmgren is already

in his third NBA season. Shea's already been paid. It won't be long until J-D-D, like, you know, I think they're trying to do stuff on this quick timeline. But I think Lowry could have fit into the quick timeline, too. I don't know, man. I think to preserve the five-out nature of the team,

I would have rather them go out and get Lowry than address the size issue, honestly, and just been like, you know what, we're going to make shots this year. And that's what's going to make the difference. and we went out and got Lowry instead of getting Hartenstein, which shores up the size issue, the rebounding issue and stuff like that. Leaning into the offense and the five out, I think would have been more fun,

would have been more bold, more daring. But, you know, basically, you know, a two-year deal, very judicious with the Hartenstein. I respect it, though. I don't think it's just Hardinstein, too. I think it's a combination of him and Caruso. Because the deal, like the way to get Lowry would, I would imagine, have to involve, if not Jdub,

someone like Josh Giddy, who is now no longer a member of the Oklahoma City Thunder. Then you're not giving up Jdub putting a Lowry deal. That's not happening. You should not. I liked what OEC did.

We can talk about the West a little bit later, but I think they're probably the team to be in that conference at this point. What do you guys think about the Rockets for Lowry? They're a team that, like, has suggested that they really want to make an upgrade for whatever reason, but do you think he fits? Because they also have a lot of young guys

to contort to whatever. superstar or star, or whatever you want to call them, in there. You know, it's like, they can get a big and just trade out some of the younger bigs. They can get a guard. They can trade out some of the younger guards. I think what you're asking us is, do we believe in Jabari as a five?

Yeah, kind of. Because Markinen and Shangoon, I don't think I want that as my four or five combination defensively. That's not what I'm looking for. But if you think what we saw from the end of the season run from the sort of smaller ball rockets could be a real

thing. Then the way to get Amen Thompson in real consistent minutes is the combination of Lowry and Jabari, right? That kind of spacing from your bigs, if Jabari can be a real anchor of a defense, that could be amazing for the sort of spacing and alignment that the rocket seemed to need. But that might be giving up on Chengoon too early, a guy who I think is a really good and really talented player. I have a question for you guys in terms, because this Jabari at the five thing doesn't, it doesn't pass the smell test. It doesn't move me personally. Like, like, because I got to ask you, because even your smallest fives to be credible, you've got to be at least as good at defense as 40-year-old Al Horford.

Do we think Jabari can be as good on defense as Al Horford was at his age this year in the playoffs? Because I think that's like the basement of center defense, man. Like, like, you think Al Horford is the basement of center defense? If you want to be a serious team. Not in the NBA. Al Horford's still a really good defender. I'm not talking about in the NBA to be competent. I'm talking about if you want to be a championship level team,

I think Al Horford this year in the playoffs as bad as you can be in terms of his size, his rim protection, his mobility. Like, that's as bad a combination as you can get and still be a serious championship level team. Like, Jabari Smith? At center? Full time. I think you're bringing a little

uncharitable to NBA champion Al Horford. No, I'm saying that I'm saying like the level, the basement of championship contention is very high. That is what I'm saying. Okay, okay. Like Al is at the basement of what it takes to win championships. But that shit, like, dude, that's a really crazy height to reach. I think the problem is the Jabari stuff is so interconnected

with the jailing green stuff, where I do feel like Shen Goon moving out just open things up for the both of them because they're playing a slightly different style of basketball that empowers them to be more who they are. And I don't know if either direction necessarily points them toward title contentions. So they are in a real like Faustian bargain here.

So I just, I don't know which way to go. And it almost feels like they need a trade to push them in one of those directions. it couldn't hurt in terms of just getting some clarity in that building. But you're right. These bets are conditional on one another. Betting on Jabari is also betting on Jalen Green, which is not something that I'm eager to do at this point in time.

Even if you were to say, trade Shangoon, but keep Jalen Green and bring in someone like Lowry, Lowry and Jalen Green strike me as two players who do not have a lot of encore chemistry or would not have a lot of encore chemistry. Their games are not very collaborative in terms of style. This is the problem you run into with the Rockets. They have a lot of talent.

They have a lot of veteran talent and young talent at the same time. I have a lot of guys that I like individually. A lot of guys over there. Perhaps, perhaps too many guys as we often come to at this point in the season. And so whether now or later, they are a natural trade candidate for a lot of different teams for that reason. Whatever your vision of what the Rockets should be, they do need to clarify it. Also, Faustian Bargain was not what I was reaching for. I think it was, I meant Sophie's choice.

That's tough. Faust and Sophie, they have a lot in common. That's true. Listen, it's the middle of the summer. I'm dealing with a head cold. We'll get there eventually, guys. What is the Rockets Faustian bargain, do you think? Jalen Green being a superstar.

Oh, that's what they're selling their soul for? Or maybe did? No, that's what they would have to. Well, maybe that's what happened in April. Tomin Fortita sold his soul Jalen Green became a superstar and here we are. We're living in that reality now.

Let's go. I'm with that reality, by the way. The last team I have in the list here, Milwaukee Bucks, who really didn't have many options and so they haven't done much as a result. Dilan Wright, they signed. Seems like classic buck signing

of a guy who was interesting two years ago and just ends up, let's take a flyer to see if he could reprise that. I think the most interesting thing what the bucks was is like the Burke Lopez chatter seems to be ongoing. Seems like if they want to make any sort of meaningful upgrade, he might be the path to do so, reported Lakers' interest, yada, yada. Do you see that as a more viable alternative this year than it has been in years past? I don't. I really think the bucks have to bank on the idea that their roster can play significantly

better than it did last season. Like, they have to have a belief that they can just, just be better. That can be the adjustment. That can be the upgrade. We're just better than we were last year. Like, I don't know how, like, how could it be possible that Brooke Lopez brings back a group of players or a player that somehow unlocks what's already within this team? I think it's about Chris Middleton's health and just a more sound approach to who. I don't know that it can be anything else, quite frankly.

Jan is coming back healthy, Middleton being healthier, and them just playing like an actual NBA team, man. I think we also need to adjust our expectations for the buck's timeline too. Yes, Brooke Lopez is on the older side of his career, but really Milwaukee has to prove a lot this season, right? Janus is committed to them, but not indefinitely. And you're going to need to show that you're closer to contending than you were a year ago. Some of that is Chris Middleton's health, as you said, was.

Some of that is just getting meaningfully better, cleaning stuff up in terms of the coaching. Some of it is Dame playing meaningfully better than he did last year. I just don't think if you trade Brooke for even a player who's, let's say theoretically, at Brooks level or slightly better, who plays a different position or plays that same position differently, you're going to have to reintegrate them from the start of the season. going to go through a similar degree of growing pains all year as you did last year with dame the continuity of what yannis and chris middleton and brookelopez have together is part of what is going to make the bucks good and to bail on that for well i think what at best would be a lateral move

what probably would be a step down strikes me as very short-sighted yes after a year of start and stops where you change things practically every two months why would you go out and run the continuity that you've built even in that short amount of time. I tend to agree here. I think it really comes down to more, A, is Brooke valuable on a market where a lot of teams seem like they need a big who can shoot. And so if you needed a plug-and-play guy like that

and protect the room, I think he is kind of an instant floor raiser for a lot of different teams. The Pelicans, private example. If they can't get enough shooting in there, I think he makes a lot of sense there. And I think the flip side is the kind of the conversation we've been dancing around for a season or two. It's like, does Janus at the 5th,

for instance, make them a little bit different now, or the fact that you have damed, can you divert some of your capital in terms of cap space to more of a wing defender in order, and does that make them a better team? I think it's more about who the bucks are under Doc more so than what Brooke is even. Yeah, I'm just thinking about even which wing defenders they would get.

And if you told me they could have gotten in on the Alex Caruso conversation, that's a level of wing defender who could change some things for them and a guy who can actually hit some shots, at least recently has been able to hit some shots. If you're just trading Brooke Lopez, who we should say last season had basically an all-defense caliber season for another decent level wing defender,

that's not changing anything about your team. And putting that much on Janus defensively, I just don't think is that realistic over the course of a full regular season. And this is why the fact that the bucks right now cannot use the full mid-level exception is kind of a problem

because doing so would put them over the second apron. They're in that like, or even the full taxpayer mid-level exception, I believe would put them over the second apron. So they're in this kind of middle ground where they can't actually add players.

Trading the guys who they have who are good could pull them a step backwards. And maybe the most confusing part, they just had the 23rd and the 33rd pick in the draft and they pick two teenagers. Are we sure that AJ Johnson is not a couple of kids stacked up on each other in a trench go?

How confident are we in that? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think you got in the draft, get players that you think are actually going to be good. Like, this idea that you get old dudes because they're NBA ready, I just don't buy. I'm not saying old dudes,

I'm saying maybe not literal children. That's fair. especially with Doc as their coach. Do we need to reprise like the- Andre Jackson just getting his splinters in his butts? Yeah, I don't know. So we'll keep an eye on the bucks here.

I want to talk about the Mabs because I think they're quietly killing the off-season. So they lose Derek Jones Jr., who was obviously a huge part of them making the finals last year. But they bring in Clay in a side and trade win the clay sweet-stakes. So that's something considering

that they haven't won. want a free agent sweepstakes and God, who knows how long? Chandler Parsons, perhaps. I mean, I guess you could add Kyrie, but he was their own free agent. So that seems like a pretty significant marker and just their trajectory.

I also think like their totality of transactions is kind of pretty impressing. So they bring in Quentin Grimes for Tim Hardaway, Jr. in three seconds. Love Quentin Grimes. I think he might end up being a starter for this team. We'll see.

and then they bring in Najee Marshall. You don't think so? I think Clay Thompson might have some different opinions about that. Yeah, so yeah, I think that is the big sticking point here. I would assume Clay is going to start to begin with, and I wonder if by the end of the season they'll realize what the Warriors realize and, like, he's very valuable, but just to a certain extent. I think they won't have to realize that until the playoffs.

In the regular season, where teams, like, are going to have to devote multiple resources to stopping Luca and lively in the pick and roll, Clay's going to be open. Or if he's not, other people are going to be their offense is going to be made better by having

non-dribble threat, non-one-one threat, Clay Thompson on it, like in the regular season. In the playoffs, I think Clay's, you know, he has to guard threes, you know, he can even guard some fours, but can't rebound, you know,

doesn't, isn't a dribble threat. Like, those problems will rear their head in the postseason, but in the regular season, it's going to be just fine. And I think they're going to be a much better regular season team for. They're probably going to threaten for the number one seed this year because of how strong they'll be in the regular season. I think Clay has this, like, 30-something minute a game playoff guy.

I ain't seeing it. Sure. I was going to get to this point, but I think my big prediction for the Mavs is Quentin Grimes or Naji Marshall will be, if not starting by the end of this season, but definitely in their best lineup. I can actually see Marshall supplanting Washington even as a go-to-four, if only because Washington's shooting has kind of come and gone there. But like, I love those signings. And somehow they've managed to upgrade on what was already a really deep, intriguing group of, of wing players, especially if you throw Exum in there as well. Yeah, I mean, it turns out Nico Harrison is pretty damn good at this. Both the taking a calculated swing on someone like Kyrie, who we all had our questions about at the time, and has turned out to pay off really well for them, but also filling out the roster. Last season, getting Derek Jones Jr., getting Dante Exum, this year, coming up with this complete renovation of the supporting cast in terms of the wing talent that the Mavs have at their disposal,

they're going to have options. And I think they're probably going to have to get a little bit more comfortable playing PJ at the 5 on a semi-consistent basis or at least matchup dependent basis to make use of all these guys that they have. I would love to see some more of those sorts of looks. And it's going to depend on Luca rebounding at a pretty high level. It's going to depend on Najee Marshall, not just being a physical on-ball defender, but also rebounding like a big.

Those are kind of the variables that come with playing someone like PJ at the 5. but I think they can get away with some of that and I think they can get away with it because this group is talented, is capable is going to demand a little more attention on the perimeter than Derek Jones and Josh Green did and that's where whatever Clay's limitations may be and there are many,

especially at his price point and his level of reputation and what he expects of himself and his role but he's going to demand a ton of attention on the perimeter and he's going to completely change the way the teams try to guard the maps. It's just a different problem and formula than even the teams that just made it to the NBA finals?

Yeah, the switch-heavy, the best switch-heavy teams in the playoffs are still going to guard, like, have a nice time guarding Clay Thompson. Luca's definitely still going to have to be a switchbuster. Come playoff time. But again, in the regular season, Clay Thompson is going to feast. And also, you know, from what I understand, And part of the calculation, like Michael Thompson was begging this guy to come play for the Lakers, his father. Can't imagine why.

He got offered more money to go play for the Lakers, but he's on a revenge tour. He wanted to join a team that he thinks can win the championship. But guess what? They just came from the finals, right? I think he's going to be highly motivated. And I think he'll be pretty adaptable, too. I don't think he's going to be, like, whatever. He's on a mission to show that, like, I still got something.

and, you know, I'm on a team that's ready to compete for a championship ASAP. I want to say another thing about Clay, too, as it relates to the switching defenses, and really this kind of pervasive idea that he's going to be a standstill, park in the corner kind of shooter alongside Luca Donchich that I've seen bubbling up already. The Mavs have tried, and I repeat, tried and did run a lot of motion action for Tim Hardaway, Jr. over the years. He's just Tim Hardaway, Jr. And there are some nights where he would pop off for 30

and there's some nights where he'd go over on 10 attempts. I'm not saying Clay Thompson isn't going to have bad shooting nights with the level of threat projection that you're talking about. Even if the Mavs just run the same stuff that they have run going back three or four seasons now will be incredibly effective with Clay Thompson as a part of it. Just simple, you know, Spain pick and roll or kind of three-man orchestrations with a pick-and-roll plus clay kind of mucking things up or challenging the judgment of the defenders in those situations.

It's obviously easier if it's a more conventional look with the big who gets caught in that mix. But even if teams are trying to switch all of that stuff, it's going to get really murky and really complicated as they try to figure out, wait, am I supposed to go up with Clay Thompson as he flares up to the top of the floor, one of the best shooters to ever live? Or do I need to stay here in the hope that I am the only line of defense against Luca Doncha driving to the basket? Those problems are going to present themselves in ways that are much more complicated than Clay on the weak side. Yeah, I kind of sped through the clay aspect of it because, like a fucking blogger. I just wanted to talk about quitting Grimes and Najee Marshall. But like,

but I do think the clay signing was pretty impressive. He still shot 39% from three on nine attempts per game last year. Like, there are levels to where he is. He is not the version that we are used to seeing. And I also

feel like freeing himself of that is going to lead a lot more people to appreciate what he can still provide, which is lights out shooting unlike we seen probably an NBA history outside of some of the other guys that he played with in Golden State. And so, like, the fact that the Mavs can use him in a variety of ways and maybe aren't beholden to starting him even, we'll see how that plays out, I think it's just going to be to the benefit of him and the rest of the team. So the thing about Clay, it's hard for

me to divorce the best version of Clay from who he is now, because just for context, folks got to understand that, like, in 2016 against Russell Westbrook, who was the most athletic player probably in the NBA at that moment, Clay Thompson guarded this man on an island by his

self, while also being somebody who could go off for 40 in a game six on three dribbles. Like, this dude was such a unique player, man. Like, that combination of what he could do to defenses with his

shooting ability, his movement, and just shut down defensive player, you know, was just insane. And it's just, he's just not that anymore. But like the shooting part, make no mistake. This fool could still shoot the hell out of a basketball, man. Yeah. And I think there's still a lot of all season to go. I'll say it again, still day four of free agencies. So we don't know.

It sounds like Denver might load up and get Russell Westbrook in there. So we'll see. But it does feel like there's like a cheer. performing here where it's like okay C Minnesota, Dallas seemed to be on

another level at least on paper at this point in the off season and all those other teams. Yeah, Dallas, to put it in context,

50 win team last year, with significant injuries. So with all of these improvements and assuming that their guys in particular Kyrie can stay

healthy more consistently, maybe that's an assumption and something that'll just like fall flat on its face. But if that is the case, I would expect them to be a dramatically better regular season team

by all kind of metrics of performance whether you want to look at wins, net rating, all that stuff. And by the way, when they made their trade, they got way better. Also, like, that happened. Took them a while to figure that out as well. It took a couple weeks before they even starting the right guys. So, yeah, they're going to be sick next year.

Do you guys lean one way over another team? I know it's still pretty early, but I think OKC is probably on paper the most talented, especially when you consider the potential for their young guys to make great improvements as young guys are wont to do.

But, you know, yeah, I know for me, I'm the old head, like the gray beard, man, like you got to go through it a few more times. Hell, Boston with the six conference finals before they could break through, okay? And so for that, I'm holding that against them as the youth, but on paper, like when you talk about Chet and Shea and J-dub

and, you know, Caruso and Hartenstein and the Wiggins and I say, like, Dort, like, this is crazy. The amount of legit NBA guys next to an MVP can't, like, you know, a guy who was on the cusp of all-star consideration

and Chet, like, bro, this is a crazy, talented team, but, you know, young guys, I want to see it again. So I'll still give Dallas the light nudge over them. That was kind of my question. is I get the skepticism about younger teams in general,

but there aren't a lot of compelling cases, gray beard type cases out there, right? And Minnesota lost some of their greatest beers. Minnesota has to figure out a lot themselves. I'm inclined to lean OKC as far as the best team in the West right now. Number one seed in the West. They added elite perimeter talent on defense. They added a high-level rim protector.

That series against Dallas was pretty damn close to begin with. and they got meaningfully better just as the Mavericks did, and they have a little bit of a case to improve internally in a way that makes more sense. I know Derek Lively and guys like that are going to get better, but Chad Holmgren, Shea,

their whole young core, J-dub and OKC is going to take a meaningful step, and that's going to be a scary thing, whether they got Crusoe or Hardinstein or not. I would almost split the difference where the fact that OKC just augmented what it has by just getting kind of the perfect fits

to round out, that core with Hartnstein and then Caruso is kind of remarkable. And the fact that they did so without ever using a draft pick is just almost like a cherry on top. It's almost like a real fuck you from Sam Presti. I think the one thing is just obviously seeing Chet and J-dub kind of push past whatever wall they hit for young players in the playoffs. And so for that reason, I would probably lean Mavericks right now. But I also think it's in them to do so. And I would not be shocked at all if they did that next season. So it's going to be a fun race in the West. Let's talk about

just before we go here, the top of the East, because Donovan Mitchell was the big deal of two days ago when he signed his extension three years, 150 million with a player option in year three. I think the most interesting thing for us that came out of this

is that Donovan Mitchell is functionally LeBron James for the Cavs, and by that I mean he just gets to do whatever he wants. This is the the line in the ESPN newser that I thought was really interesting. A significant part of Mitchell's belief in committing on a new deal comes

with his and his representatives' confidence in the organization to keep building the Cavaliers into a championship contender and an alignment on a partnership of how they'll play a part and doing it together. Sources said. And I guess what you could read into that word salad there

is just Donovan Mitchell is going to have his way. And so it's kind of surprising that we've got here, gotten here, but like, I don't know. I guess it's for the best if you've just traded so many goddamn picks and players to get to this point to begin with. This is a good outcome for the Cavs.

I know Donovan Mitchell is not the superstar of all superstars, but having Donovan Mitchell sure be, it's not having Donovan Mitchell. And if his input is something that is, like having input on transactions or I don't know to what extent he was in on Kenny Atkinson being the new head coach of the Cavs. Do you think that's a good thing too?

I don't think it's a bad thing. Kenny Atkins is a good coach. As well as his face, which is like he's doing the rocks like eyebrow thing. Virtually all of Rob's points. Yeah, it's pretty good. Look, I'm just glad that a star and a player can have, quote, an alignment on a partnership of how they'll play a part and doing it together. That's all. I'm excited to see people working together.

Look, yes, it's a good thing that the Cavs, you got to give Shouts to Kobe Altman and his staff and crew for convincing Donovan Mitchell that staying with the team on another deal was a good idea. Yes. Shouts to them for getting Kenny Atkinson, who's a coach that I have a lot of respect for, like, for what the work that he,

not just his reputation, the work that he put in with Brooklyn, and those teams overachieved while he was coaching. There's no doubt about that. You know, I'm going to always raise my eyebrow at the idea that guys who aren't Luca, Yokic, Janice, Steph, LeBron, level guys having organizational input. That's ridiculous to me. I'm sorry. Like, I don't see why I would give Devin Booker.

a player who I love a level of Devin Booker like yo you get the run of my organization why okay I don't know that anyone is saying he gets the run of the organization but he's got organizational input he gets to file some memos

you know we're going to take his opinions under advisement okay it's technically an alignment on a partnership of how they'll play in part doing it together that's exactly what it is No, I think that is the big question. How much is his influence going to lead to the changes throughout the rest of the roster?

We're kind of at the point where we've reached Occam's Razor with a lot of these teams. And I'm almost at the point where it's like, are we really trading Darius Garland at this point? First of all, who is trading for Darius Garland? It doesn't seem to be like a clear-cut fit unless you want to get into like the San Antonio thing. But they've kind of signaled that that's not what they're about right now. And I also wonder if you bring in Kenny Atkinson, who has been fairly creative as a coach. I thought was kind of given the short shaft in Brooklyn when Kyrie and Katie wanted to change things up there.

Like, do we give him half a season at the very least to maybe reimagine the partnership between Mitchell before we get rid of Garland? I mean, same thing with Mobley and Allen. Do we need to get rid of Allen? Or can we just try to figure things out on the fly? Hold on. Hold on, Justin. Can the new boss of the organization be convinced

of an alternative way to play? I don't know. This is what I'm saying. You think you need to convince Donovan Mitchell to have the ball on his hands more? Well, that's the thing. I think what would take them to the stratosphere would be him being better without the ball. Well, sure. I don't think anybody disagrees with you.

I don't think owners of organizations who aren't Steph Curry, basically, player owners. They don't voluntarily do this kind of stuff. But, you know, I've been wrong before, you know. God knows this playoffs I was. I'm just not sure Donovan Mitchell has reached team governor status yet. I see this as a statement of value and of influence that is, sure, above and beyond other players on the team. For sure. Above and beyond Jared Allen.

Is he running the place? I don't necessarily see it that way. And I agree with your overall framing, Justin, that you hire Kenny Atkinson, and part of the value of doing that is giving him some time to see what he can do with this same group of players, right? You're not making huge changes to the roster just yet. You're making changes to the way that those players are viewed and that their roles might be viewed and the ways they might be deployed. And maybe you can convince Donovan Mitchell to do a little bit more off ball or to play a different kind of role. And maybe you can find a capacity for the bigs to play together. Atkinson, as coach Jared Allen before,

is as familiar with his game and his skill set as anybody. And to trade Darius Garland now, frankly, even aside from the market, would just be trading low on a very very, very talented point guard. So yeah, keep him, keep both of them, as far as I'm concerned, see what you can do, give it a couple months, and then we'll check in, as I'm sure we will many, many times throughout the season

to see what the calves are and should be doing. They're just stuck in this nebulous zone where it's like, you trade one, it just makes even more problems that would probably make me like them less, depending on what came back, where it's like, I think Mowbly probably should be playing five

this year. But then it's like, our we're going to really trot out a defensive lineup that includes Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, and Evan Mobley at the five? Like, it's a very small team to power through a regular season. As much as I like Mobley and think he's a potential like all defensive, defensive player of the year type of guy. He was already on the ballot two years ago. Yeah.

He is just like, that. That doesn't really work for me over the course of a full season. So like, why not maybe take a half measure, play more lineups with it this year, and then go for it. it. But Mitchell's only here for another three years. And one of those is a player option. So there is a certain clock to it all. And so

I'm having as hard a time and figuring them out as anyone. We've been here. We've lived with these calves for a long time. I think we're all familiar with their quandaries, unfortunately. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Eddie Ocampo who's doing everything for

us today, apparently. So we appreciate him stepping up as our franchise player. We'll be back on Sunday, as per usual. We'll see you. Must be 21 plus and 18 plus in D.C. In present in select states, Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas

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