The Ringer NBA Show - What Are the Ripple Effects of the Nets' James Harden Trade? | The Answer

Episode Date: January 15, 2021

Chris Ryan is joined by The Ringer’s Rob Mahoney to discuss how James Harden will impact Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant, and the rest of the Nets roster. Later, Chris is joined by 'Greatest Of All Talk��� cohost Andrew Sharp to discuss key figures around the league affected by the trade, including the city of Houston, Ben Simmons, and more (20:00). Host: Chris Ryan Guests: Rob Mahoney and Andrew Sharp Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to The Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. My name is Chris Ryan, your host today on The Answer. What does the James Harden trade mean for Brooklyn? And what does the James Harden trade mean for everybody else? It's coming up next. All right, thanks for listening to another episode of The Answer. It's Friday, and we are all living in a world where James Hardin is on the same basketball team as Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving.

There's a ton of stuff up on the ringer that you can read. I highly recommend we've covered the hell out of this story. We got it from all different angles. And today on The Answer, what I wanted to do is look at it. from the Brooklyn side of things. So I had Rob Mahoney come in and talk to me about whether or not this big three is actually a big two

with some insurance. And then I had Andrew Sharp from the greatest of all talk podcast and my old buddy from Grantland come on and talk to me about everybody else outside of Brooklyn. All the other characters who have been affected by the story

from Boogie and John Wall to the Sixers to everybody in between. So Sharp and I had a really fun conversation about that. This trade's been really weird. It's almost like when this thing finally went down, it was like when the fourth trailer comes out for a blockbuster.

And if you watch that fourth trailer, it's like four and a half minutes long and most of the movie is in it. And you're like, well, do I actually have to see the movie now? I think I've seen all like the major set pieces, all the character reveals, all the beats. I feel like I really know what happens. And this Hardin Trade had gotten so inevitable, especially after his performance against the Lakers. There was that last second twist, though. Because I think it did seem really inevitable. It seemed like it was going to happen,

and it was going to go hardened to the Sixers for Ben Simmons and some add-ons. And obviously, at the last second, the Nets seemed to outbid the Sixers. And so what we wanted to do today is look at it from the two sides. We wanted to look at the nets. And we also wanted to look at it from the perspective of the teams that were also involved, like Philly, like Houston, some of the characters involved. So let's get in to the answer with my first guest, Rob Mahoney. All right, now I'm joining my Rob Mahoney, who's here to talk to me about the big twos within the big three.

in Brooklyn. Rob, what's going on, man? Look, it's been a long day of digestion, figuring out what this is going to look like. So I'm ready to regurgitate with you. Isn't it strange that when we'll have something that we know is probably inevitable that's going to happen? I feel like this happens with these big trades or these big signings where it's like, you're aware for a very long time. And I think almost all that time to consider all the ramifications makes you uniquely

unprepared to deal with the reality. Well, this one we're almost like a cycle behind where this is stuff we were talking about months ago. And then, I mean, yesterday leading up to the trade, I was crunching Joelle and Bede pick and roll tape. Like, okay, what is this going to look like with the Sixers? And clearly things went in a pretty different direction from there. I was preparing a statement to come from the elders of the process, you know, of the process fandom board. But look, I wanted to talk to you because I think that when it was first muted that Hardin could join the the Rockets or that Hardin could join the Nets and that that's where he wanted to go. He wanted to go to

Brooklyn and play with Durant and Irving, that we kind of were conceiving of this thing as like this big three. Is that like they would, they would, you know, defense be damned. They could score 160 in night and everybody else could worry about everything else. And I think that in especially the last 24 hours, I saw Zach Lowe talking about this. KOC wrote about this for us where you can look at Hardin as a big, and Irving and Durant as a big three, or you could look at Hardin's arrival in Brooklyn as insurance for a big whether that's somebody getting hurt, Karee continuing his absence from the team or whatever, that this idea is that like it's actually not a big three,

it is a big two. Now you wrote about these guys will be amazing if they can share the ball and if they can adapt to one another. What are you thinking in terms of threes versus twos here? Well, I think you're spot on in terms of the insurance point. And some of that is, that's the liability of a big two or even a one-star kind of model, right? You're really risking a lot that the wrong ankle isn't going to turn at the wrong time.

And the nets, I think, are better positioned than anyone to roll out there with Hardin and Durant and still be the best offense in the league. If Durant does have a complication with his Achilles, Hardin and Irving could be a tremendous offense unto themselves. So you have a lot of optionality here within kind of a traditional superstar system where these guys all want to play together. Like superstars love playing with one another. And now you have the option where if you're Steve Nash, to have two of those guys on the floor are always. game long if they're all available. And if not, then they're kind of hedging the bets against one another. Yeah, I liked watching this Brooklyn team, especially at full strength before Irving, well, before Durant went out and then before Irving, Irving left the team. I was really enjoying

the particular, like, personalities on this squad, basketball, and also just sort of, you know, their personas. I really enjoyed watching the team when they had Harris, Allen, Lavert, Durant, and Irving out there in some combination. I don't know what the numbers were for that, but to me, it felt like that was a really cool first step towards establishing some sort of championship contender in Brooklyn. As is often the case in the NBA these days, though, the window is like barely,

barely, barely recognizable. And everybody knows that you have to act fast when you have guys on two-year deals, on these short-term deals, who may have their head turned to want to go play somewhere else. Do you think that Brooklyn essentially pushed the pedal down too far here?

You know, in terms of what they gave up for Hardin, and now that this now this is an incredibly top-heavy team, more so than they were before. Well, I think you're right in the window being so short with these groups. The clock is ticking as soon as you put any kind of contender together. And Brooklyn, I think, realized, as Milwaukee did in making their big trade, you have to move in with this stuff pretty quickly if you want to maximize a Kevin Durant, a Janice, a Tadacupac, whoever it is.

And in doing this, especially with three stars who are going to be free agents in two years if they want to be, you know, there's an interesting thing going on there in terms of potentially, I think, extending that window where, you know, as we talked about, even if one element of this goes wrong, and it's pretty combustible in terms of the personalities involved, but I like the approach of that, you know, in really trying to diversify

as much as you can within the construct of still trying to put together as many stars as you can get your hands on. Yeah, I don't think anybody would hold it against Brooklyn for doing this deal. I think that was obviously like a part of the Sixers thinking is that if you have an opportunity to get hardened, you get hardened and then you worry about everything else.

So I get it from Brooklyn's perspective. And especially, I would love to just know internally if their conversations changed over the course of the week with Kyrie being out. And whether or not they were like, look, we can't do the year two of Durant is Durant Hero Ball with Karris Lever and Jared Allen. We need to have a pretty convincing pitch to him

of why he should stay here. It certainly seems like there was that shift And there's some from Hardens side, too, in terms of really trying to get things moving on the trade front. So with those dual pressures, that's a lot to get a couple of teams talking and to get the Sixers in the running and to get the offers juiced up to where the Nets would want it to be. But I think the Irving piece of this is crucial in that in terms of compelling the Nets to really take a long and hard look at their options and say, if we're not going to trade for James Harden now with all these picks, like how are we going to protect ourselves against Kyrie Irving deciding he doesn't want to play the rest of this season? Kyrie Irving deciding in the future, you know, whatever it is he wants to do, or as you've discussed, Kevin Durand with his injury, like, it's really tough to be in that position, especially with, you know, personal reasons in this kind of current Kyrie Irving limbo, which could have totally valid reasons

for doing what he's doing, but as a basketball team, it puts you in a tough spot. Yeah, I almost feel like this is beneficial for Kyrie that they did this, because it creates some space for him to go through whatever he's going through and for him to kind of you know, if he's coming out of what happened in D.C. and what happened in Kenosha, and he's just like, I have other things on my mind that I want to address besides basketball. Obviously, there's a way in which he maybe could have done this that's different. Like he could have made, gave him a statement. Steve Nash might have been able to go into that first game and be like, yes, I have talked to Kyrie. His absence is excused to some extent and

we'll move forward. But now, I think that the pressure is taking off that situation a little bit. It's still kind of a side show. It's still obviously if he's popping up in organizing zooms for district attorney candidates. I think that will that will continue to be a distraction. But if you have Hardin and Durant there, that's what people are going to be talking about. That's what people are going to be watching on Saturday night. Well, hopefully you take some of the pressure off Durant publicly to have to take stances on this stuff, to speak on Kyrie's absence.

You guys were talking last week about player rivalries and how quickly it can turn from guy on the other team or guy you were drafted alongside to, oh, now the rivalries kind of intra-team. You know, it's within the roster. And you could see a scenario, even though Kyrie and KD are good friends, in which down the line, there becomes points of friction around absences like this or whatever. It may be just because the media keeps pushing that button over and over. And so, you know, if you have James Hardin there running the offense, doing James Hardin things, it's just a non-issue.

And then you're getting Kyrie back to put you over the top for a playoff run. So you just said James Harden running the off. I think that there's that version of this. And then there is the like dazed and confused high school reunion where James Hardin goes back to being the Swiss Army knife that he was on the Thunder. Do you can you think guys can unlearn basketball behaviors? Do you think guys can like revert back to? Because strangely, Hardin probably came into the league as this almost like like Spursian like pure basketball talent who was able to playmate, play a little defense. We heard about how when, I think there's been a lot of reporting about how like when the heat played the thunder, they were game planning against Hardin.

Like they were really worried about Hardin in the finals. He's obviously gone through this incredible transformation since then, since he's been on the Rockets. Do you imagine he's going to be Rockets, James, or is there going to be a little Thunder James in this? I mean, I think it'll probably be closer to Rockets, James. But you do hear, you know, in talking to people in the league about guys' capacity to change in just this way, you hear a lot of, oh, if you take them out of their setting, you know, you move franchises. You know, you're, you're already doing all this adjustment if you're James Harden, relocating, learning new personnel, you know, new, how you're getting to the arena is different than it was before. If you're already

uprooting all these habits, there's certainly a school of thought in the league that those guys are easier to adjust on the court, that they're a little bit more impressionable and amenable to change. That said, James Hardin is pretty set in how he likes to do things. Now, it's a big part, you know, the big part of why things went the way they did in Houston over and over. So I would be hard pressed to see him really giving up a lot of what has made him an MVP, and rightly so. Like, that's where his bread and butter has come from in terms of being a superstar. So I think we're going to see Kyrie probably bend a little bit.

I think we're going to see Durant bend a little bit. I'm sure James will give up some things. So it's not going to be a rerun of what was going on in Houston, but I think he's still going to be more or less that kind of player. I think it's crucial that Dan Tony is there. He obviously... co-signed the idea that this could work. Although I do think Dan Tony's also, like,

give me as many, like, playmaking weapons on the court at once and we'll worry about everything else later. That being said, I wonder if we'll see something of a return to the way that Dan Tony staggered Paul and Hardin at the best of the rockets when, you know, this is such a strange season. We have so many different factors contributing to where guys' heads are at at any given moment. I could see there being a, hey, let's play through James tonight,

and tomorrow we'll play through Katie, and tomorrow will play through Kyrie, and we're going to figure out how the three of them play together and what our closing lineup feels like and looks like, and who's going to have the ball in his hands, at least to start actions in the last five minutes of games, assuming we're not up 45. But I think this will be a work in progress for a while.

Would you agree with that? For sure. And something I've been thinking about a lot is, I think it was in 2019 during the Warriors last finals run I interviewed Steph Curry for a story and we were talking about Kevin Durant's first days with the Warriors

and what those kind of days and months look like and that adjustment, that learning curve. And as he's going through it, he's explaining what that dynamic was like and off the top of his head just right there on the spot rattled off how many shots he was taking per game, Clay was taking per game,

and Katie was taking per game before they were teammates. You know, when Katie was stoned OKC and kind of doing the math in his head. And I'm talking like down to the decimal And to me, like, that's the level of mindfulness you need as a star to make these three-star arrangements work. You know, like LeBron and AD can roll out the ball and they're going to get great numbers. They're going to be really involved in the offense.

But I think whether it's the coach, whether it's the players, you need to be really minding, okay, how are these guys feeling about their touches? Are they feeling as involved as we need them to be? Are they, you know, getting those nights that you describe where James is going to run the offense tonight, Kyrie the next night? How are you kind of juggling that balance? because it's really hard if you're just kind of getting

into the rhythm of a season and it can get away from you in the rhythm of a game. So you have to be really proactive about this stuff, I think if you have three guys. How much of these guys, I guess I'm talking specifically

about Harden and Irving because we know that KD's can be amazing off the ball and can be amazing without the ball in his hands. But how do Harden and Irving as a two-sum play together? Because those are guys

that I just think they pull so much gravity because they have the ball in their hands and they can play off the ball, although Hardin, I think, a little, I'm a little less into Hardin as an off ball player than Irving. Well, what do you think about the idea that, like, they generate some of their power and their, and their skills from having the ball in their hands? Isn't that crazy, though,

that with KD, he's almost like the afterthought in some of these fit questions? And I'm guilty of this, too, because I've been wondering the same thing about Hardin and Kyrie, but, I mean, there's a scenario in which Kevin Durand is the guy who sacrifices the most here. And that would be, that would not be good for the Nets, certainly. Kevin Durant's an unbushable. believable player and he's been playing great basketball, but he's just so easy to fit. You know, you almost don't have to worry about him in the same way. I could see him kind of falling into that trap a little bit. Do you think that, let's say Kyrie is like, I'm back, it's all good, don't worry about it. And we get three quarters of a season of Kyrie plus a playoff run,

injuries permitting. If you're Sean Marks and we get to next, you know, to the summer and we look back on this season, let's say they don't, they get to the Eastern Conference Finals, lose to the bucks or something. Do you think he would look back and be like, you know, I had all these draft picks. I had Alan, who was going to be up for a deal. You know, we have, we have Levert, who a lot of people really like,

I could have gotten like a couple of different pieces for that package, for that cumulative package of people that I wound up sending out for one guy. Do you think that he will look back to regret this? I don't. And some of that, I think, you know, unless Kyrie's situation goes off the rails very quickly. He's a guy who's going to have trade value for a lot of teams. If you decide you need to go that way. Again,

they didn't put a single game together. So these are distant possibilities. But I don't think trading for James Hardin, when you have Kevin Durant is a thing you live to regret. You know, it's that level of talent, that level of offensive creation. And for two guys who are really some of the best shooters we've ever seen, you know, say what you will about their ability to kind of run offense simultaneously with them too or with all three of these guys. But these are all great. shooters. They're all going to space the floor brilliantly for each other, even if James Hardin just kind of sitting at the perimeter. So I think they're, you're going to miss some stuff defensively. You're going to lose out a little bit on the depth. But if you can have James Harden for 30 to 40 minutes on an average night, that's going to beat getting, you know, your league pass favorite bench guy on the pistons or whatever. Yeah. You know, I think that the, uh, the summer of the Hampton's house kind of like, wodgepilled me. Because like, I, I feel like we,

I'm almost accustomed to knowing a lot about all the thinking that's going into this. When this first came up, I was like, why does he want to play? I mean, I guess I understand why you're going to play with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant, but if I'm James Harden, I'm just kind of like, you got everything built around you in Houston. Like, it's the offense is built around you, the personnel is built around you. Yes, I guess you didn't get the coach you wanted. But I think that this has been a unique situation where I imagine these guys have talked about this. I imagine these guys have talked about, like, hey, so like, when we're out on the floor,

how do you think it's going to work? Like, group text. And waiting for somebody to be like, heart emoji on the text and just be like, yep, like, I'm happy to stand in the corner and hit the Chris Bosch 3s or whatever. But I mean, you have to imagine like this has been discussed not only among these three guys, but among Nash and these three guys, among DeAnne and some of them. I mean, some of it depends on how connected that conversation is to reality. And how much stock you want to put into, you know, Katie and Kyrie had these conversations on Instagram live where Kyrie was talking about wanting to post up eight times a game. Like that math is not going to work. Like those possessions are not there. Although now it might. They don't have Jared Allen. They may need somebody to go in the block. Clear the paint. Clear the paint. But no, I think some of that stuff is easy to throw around and then you get into the thick of doing it. And it's like, oh, this is this is what that looks like when I'm giving James room to work for quarters at a time or games at a time. So it's, it's a

It's very easy to talk that and be in a summer pickup run, say how great it would be to play together. You know, James and Katie have been friends for a long time. I've no doubt they've had those conversations. And you mentioned that these guys have played together in various capacities in international basketball. And as we know, Team USA is often the sort of the writer's room for a lot of these super teams. I get the impression that Hardin and Irving have a bond from that experience too. You know, they were part of that. It's almost like a young and up-and-coming 2014 Fiba team at the time. It was them. It was young Steph. Anthony Davis. Kenneth Farreed was inexplicably a star for that team. They still have some Kenneth Fareed style by around.

I mean, hold on to it at this point. It's not going to hurt you. But I do think that they formed a playing relationship from that team, but they were such different players then. It's been a world of change in both of their lives and who they are as basketball players since that point. So what that looks like on the court now is, I mean, it's going to be thrilling to see. This is going to be the greatest experiment we have working this season. What do you think the level of, not panic, but stress is among the coaching staffs in Miami, Milwaukee, and Philly and Boston? In terms of there being like this, these guys being a legit Eastern Conference, if not NBA contender now. Do you think that they're quaking in their boots?

They don't know how they're going to keep them under 150? Or do you think they're like, I think we got an answer for this already? I mean, I don't think Milwaukee's thrilled. I think they were probably looking at this conference before and thinking they had a pretty good shot and now they're better equipped to match up with these three guys than most are just with their three stars or all good defensive players and you can see it a little bit.

Yeah, we're going to get some Yonis KD. Oh, yeah, I imagine we'll probably get a lot of it. And so they're in a better spot than most, but still, like, you didn't want to see this. You know, if you have the option of, you know, Kevin Durant and if Kyrie Irving is available or not versus now James Harden is in the mix. You're always going to choose the opposite.

So I think they're one of those teams that would probably prefer not to see it. The Sixers, I mean, they're in a tough spot just because they were involved in the trade talks to begin with. So there's kind of layers to their interactions with this kind of thing. The heat are one of those teams who I don't think

they give a shit too much. Like they'll roll out the ball. They kind of want to play against anybody. They always feel quote unquote really good about their group regardless of who that group is. So, you know, maybe, you know, give them some truth serum. Maybe they'll start to get a little nervous about it,

but I don't think they're too terrified. Well, we'll see Hardin and Durant, presumably, on Saturday night, and I'm sure we'll be back with you talking about these guys pretty soon. Thanks for joining me, Rob. Of course. All right, now I'm joined by my old Grantland colleague, my buddy, Andrew Sharp, from the Goat podcast, The Greatest Ball Talk with Ben Oliver. What's up, Sharp?

What up, man, how you doing? Good. I just talked to Mahoney about all the Brooklyn part of this conversation and, like, the Hardin Trade, and how it affects Brooklyn, how it affects Kyrie, how it affects Durant, how it affects the legacy of Jared Allen that will, you know, I think everybody's got their eye on. But I wanted to talk to you about every other character, all the other storylines that came out of this trade. But before we do that, I just wanted to ask you, like, this trade comes across, I think that the Philly aspect of it really kind of like threw people off a little bit because I think it was, it seemed like it was a lock that it was Philly for about an hour there.

And then Brooklyn kind of came in in the ninth inning and stole it. What was your first reaction to the trade? My first reaction was that I wanted him to go to Philly because I thought that the Nets on their own, like before any of this, were a legit contender. I don't think the Sixers are with Simmons and Embedd. I think the fit is just too wonky.

But I think if you swap Simmons out and put Hardin in there, that's another contender pulled out of thin air. And I think that makes the East more interesting. Did you also think it would just be funny that I had to cheer for James Hardin? I mean, yes, absolutely. And look, I have never been a Ben Simmons guy, and now, you know, there's a decent chance that I'll have to cheer for Ben Simmons at some point. We're going to get to that.

So I wanted to play a game with you, basically. It's called Better Off, Worsoff. So we're going to go through a list of people, places and things that were affected by this Harden trade. We can talk about whether or not they are better off or worse off after the trade. But the first person I want to talk to you about is the most obvious, the main character of this whole thing, which is James Hardin. Do you think James Hardin is better off or worse off that he was? To me, this is the easiest answer. He's definitely better off.

I thought, I mean, when he first wanted out, I thought that there was a chance that Tillman would basically dig in his heels and say, listen, man, you signed a contract. You need to honor your contract. And they just wouldn't trade him. I think that's definitely, Tillman's first impulse was like, we are not trading him. This guy is not bossing us around, this, that, and the other.

So to go from there to ultimately getting exactly what he wants, he's a winner. And playing with Durant, those two are going to be amazing together, at least on offense. And so I think this worked out about as well as big game James could have hoped. Right. And Devine wrote about this for the site, but obviously James essentially ate himself out of Houston. and that pass to John Wall that has been circulated on NBA Twitter where Hardin kind of pulls up and picks up his dribble

and they're playing against the Lakers and Hardin essentially almost like intentionally throws the ball like 10 feet away from John Wall who then almost like drills him back in the head with the ball when he finally gets it. It's so pissed off. I guess the next one is better off, worse off the player empowerment era

because this is definitely probably the most egregious get me the fuck out of here. move that I've seen an NBA star pull, maybe ever? Yeah. Where do you think we are now with the idea that players can call their shots? Well, so first of all, just listening to you talk reminded me that another reason Hardin is better off is because the downside to doing anything that he did over the last month or two to force his way out of Houston is that people will not like you as much. And you're going to become polarizing and you're going to have all sorts of takesmen out there on ESPN hating on you. And like, I can't think of a star in sports who cares less than James Hardin. He already

was polarizing. This wasn't Kauai and Anthony Davis. This guy was already hated. He does not give a shit. Okay. And a lot of stars will say they don't care. We'll say they don't read anything. I actually believe it when Hardin says that. And so, yes, he's definitely better off. And, the player empowerment era, man. I mean, I don't know. Like, first of all, the player empowerment era, like, if we're sticking with the rubric here,

is definitely better off. It's never been crazier. I mean, teams are just, like, forsaking decades now to keep stars happy. Like, this is insane. But I'm curious, like, you and I have never talked about this. What do you think about the era in general? Well, I think it just really applies to, like,

half a dozen guys. You know what I mean? And so the idea that it's not like Jay Crowder is like tearing up his deal and being like, I want to be traded to this business. I want to get traded to like Charlotte or something. And everybody's like, well, shit, we got to like accommodate Jay here because we have no say over it. This is essentially an all-NBA issue. And I think you're right.

I mean, I think it's disruptive. I think that it's a little bit, it erodes certain like traditional bonds between fans and teams. and like I think our concept of, you know, you can draft a guy or trade for a guy and build a team around them and make yourself into contender. But it's now become so common that I think I almost expect it.

So I feel like I treat it as like the new reality rather than this aberration. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. To me, it's getting kind of exhausting. And it's such a loaded conversation because you've got, all these people who will read politics into anything you try to say about this current NBA era.

And like, I don't know. I like, first of all, you're right. It does only apply to like 10 or 15 guys. And I think it's really like superstar empowerment and not player empowerment. And that's an important distinction to me. Like Jared Allen was not empowered by anything that happened this week. And, uh, and I think like 10 years ago, everybody. felt like it was the virtuous thing to do to side with superstars versus management. And that made

sense to me. But now, I mean, a lot of these superstars are sort of acting like owners and acting like a parody of selfish owner. And yeah, and GMs. And like, I don't know that they're doing that great a job and that like the game is better off. So I don't, I don't feel that strongly about it. I will love the NBA regardless, but I will say, like, I was listening to Bill and Rosillo earlier this week, and Bill had a take that I was jealous of because I had texted the exact same thing to a friend of the night before. Like, the Warriors this year are not title contenders, but I enjoy watching Steph and Dremond try to figure it out and try to make this work with that hodgepodge roster so much more

that I like watching the Clippers and so much more. And like the Lakers are actually fun this year, but I just feel like a lot of these teams are kind of soulless. So time will tell whether the Nets turn into that, but like it's a little strange right now. I'll say this. No one of these cases is the same. Like it's not like this is like it's the same playbook being run by different guys.

Like the Kauai situation was so weird because it was like, what's up with his quads? is it like falling out with the Spurs training staff but that was a case where he was exactly what we're talking about when we romanticize a sort of small market Spurs factory player

who was going to lead the team to another decade of relevance if not contending and that team was essentially built to beat the Warriors and then like he's just like not like this somehow and not only that

he sat out an entire season yeah yeah that's a ridiculous thing for a star to do in the middle of his prime. And it pretty much worked. I mean, he won a title and is now in L.A. and has everything he wants. Exactly. And then like the AD situation was totally different too because like at that time, the Pelicans were an absolute embarrassment in a lot of ways. You know, and I think that the lack of like stable management and ownership in New Orleans led to him just being like, this is never going to happen from here. And he put in a shift there. Like he was

there for like six years or seven years or however long, five or six years. It's not like he didn't try there. And he wanted to go play in Los Angeles and he wanted to go play with LeBron and he got his wish. The Hardin thing is just strange because obviously there's like whether it's the tell alls, whatever they come. And there have been a lot about like Hardin's behavior. But like everybody fleed that shit, man. As soon as that season was over, Russ was like, I want out. Mori retired and then came back like two weeks later, like a wrestler. And Danton was gone before the plane landed. So I don't really blame Harden that much because clearly something was happening in Houston.

Yeah, I mean, I only blame Hardin insofar as like the building was burning down and Hardin was sitting there next to like a can of gasoline and a pack of matches. That's sort of been the last. And it was like, it's kind of hot in here, isn't it? Yeah. I don't think it can be fixed. Thanks, guys. That actually leads me up my next better off,

Worse off, which is the city of Houston, which I hadn't really thought about this, but it's actually in like the midst of a really amazing dip professional sports-wise. They've got like this whole like Jack Easterby, Deshaun Watson, Nick Casario thing happening with the Texans, and Deshaun just being like, this sucks. You've got the Astros who were like the sickest,

baseball team ever and just like absolutely unrepented cheaters the entire time. And now you've got the Rockets who really honestly like, worth being said, like, these picks suck. Like if the Nets are like, the Nets have like Durant, Hardin, and Irving. Like those picks are not going to be that good. Like good luck hitting on Shea Gilgis or whatever with like the 23rd pick or something. So I don't necessarily, I mean, maybe in years they'll be, they'll be better. But I think It's a tough moment for Houston, but are they better off or worse off to have this hardened thing over?

Well, first of all, I just want to compliment you on your rundown and that little tease there. I'm a lawyer now, as you know, and I basically only watch basketball and host a podcast and focus on my work. So I have no idea who Jack Easterby. He's a guy who was like a dude

who was hanging out in the Patriots front office. He was like the chaplain for the team. team and then he was like a player relations guy. And now he's somehow wound up his GM of the Texans. Because the Texans are just addicted to hiring Belichick castoffs. And now, and then they brought in another Patriots guy to the, to run the actual player personnel side of the Texans. But after Watson was like, I want to be consulted on whoever becomes an ex-GM or coach,

I guess they just like hired these guys without asking him. Okay. And now Deshawn Watson wants out. More or less. And then you also wrote, University of Houston coaches keep getting absolutely sunned into your case. I'm like, I don't know whether we're talking about Kelvin Sampson or someone else. No, we're talking about Sumlin and Tom Herman, both flaming out in their jobs after leaving University of Houston.

It's just a bad time for Houston. It's a great point. I had high hopes for Tom Herman at Houston, not really sure, or Texas that is, not sure what happened. I really enjoyed the Astro scandal because I think analytics guys just annoy me. And I liked having that group be exposed as sociopaths and cheaters. City of Houston, they are better. No, they're definitely worse off.

But I will say this. Those Nets picks, not only is the back end of that deal going to be pretty valuable for them, but I would even say like two or three years down the line. like I'd be pretty excited about having a Nets pick. And so I don't think that they did well in all of this. And if I were a Rockets fan, I would be looking around like, what the hell happened? Right.

But at the same time, I will say that like, you know, the Spurs got Jacob Pertl and DeMar de Rosen and a bunch of trash from the Raptors. Sure. And like two months ago, I wasn't sure what leverage the Rockets really had in any of this. And to come away, with like eight years of draft assets from another team

is not the worst thing in the world. So I think they'll be okay. It's just, it's Marlins-esque from the Nets, though. Just to be like, we're going to build for a championship, we're going to mortgage the future and then we'll wait five,

six, seven years and get back in it after that. Dude, it's crazy. I just, I mean, they don't have anybody who can guard and like, the Nets, that is. And so I just feel like betting against where they're going to be in three or four years. years is actually a decent gamble.

So the Rockets could have had, apparently, Ben Simmons. So let's move Ben up here and ask, is Ben Simmons better off or worse off than he was before this hardened trade? That's a tough one. I think Ben Simmons probably wanted to get out of Philadelphia. And I think that might be healthiest for both sides at this point, both sides of the Simmons-em-Bed union. I mean, how do you feel as a Stixer's fan?

I need to give you space here. To work this out. Yeah, we talked about this a month ago, and you had mixed feelings about the deal then. I mean, like, where was your head at yesterday? Well, there was a solid, like, 45 minutes where I was, like, getting ready to do the, like, goodbye bed and emergency pot.

And then I was able to, I skipped out on that because it didn't involve, like, anybody I really cheered for or had, like, a huge amount of an opinion about. I thought he played against Miami on, I think it was Tuesday, like a guy who was getting traded the next day. And when I saw that Hardin was playing the way he was playing against the Lakers,

I was like, this is, this is like my bags are being packed night. I remember about this for the site. But Ben fouling out with like five points and then Embed going full of Lajuan for the fourth and the overtime was like pretty, pretty telling. And so this is like the good and the bad of Daryl,

man. It's the same thing with Ainge where it's like to get Kemble Walker and then Kemble Walker's and trade rumors like six months later. Daryl's going to like push it pretty hard. And so now it's like really up to Doc and Darrell to kind of mend fences if that's what we're going to do with Ben Simmons or if they're going to open up the bidding for him. And if they're going to turn this into like Simmons is available for the best possible like return. It's going to be really interesting to see what it turns into. I still want them to make a deal. And, And honestly, I hope that this little episode, the last 48 hours, prompts them to be more urgent about making a deal with somebody else

because the situation on the outside, it doesn't seem tenable. I mean, everybody is saying and or leaking the right things about what happened, but I don't buy any of it. I don't think Simmons wants to be there. Yeah, and I think that, like, you can go to Simmons like an adult and be like, look, you were in a trade rumor because we were thinking about trading you for James Hardin. And that's just like reality. It's not like we were like selling you off for picks.

It's not like we were looking to like, you know, we didn't want to like we were caving to like big M.B here. Like there was a possibility that we could have one of the great offensive players in history and we kicked the tires on that. The other side of that is like maybe this is now like kind of severed the relationship. And if you're Ben Simmons like, I'm sure Ben Simmons is like going to play hard. It doesn't seem like he's going to pull a hardened and kind of start like throwing the ball over Danny Green's head.

But it seems like it's the end of something rather than the beginning of something. It definitely does. And you mentioned that game. It was funny. Like the clip of Hardin just lazily passing to John Wall got a lot of love. But there were some ugly clips of Simmons

in that final, or not final Sixers game, where he drives into the lane, has an open shot, and he's just like, screw it, I'm not shooting. It's like, he's just, He's been in a weird spot, and it's been weird all year. I don't think he's been as good as he typically is. Well, I think it's also, like, he's been a victim of, like, this quick turnaround because it doesn't look like he got any better.

And a lot of guys, like, you expect coming out of an offseason to have, like, oh, you've got this post-up move, or you have a fade away, or you have, like, you've worked on your three-point shooting. And it's just like he, I don't see any market difference between his game now and his last game in the bowl. Well, and look, man, I mean, he's had a lot of normal off-season where you can come back in October and you're like, I don't know, it looks like the same old Ben Simmons to me. And so I think that's sort of the central issue. And it's interesting. I mean, we don't know like the details of what went down.

But my read on why this deal didn't happen for Philly is that they offered Simmons and then the rockets are sitting there with the nets on the other line offering like 10 years of draft picks. So the Rockets then felt emboldened to be like, look, we think Ben Simmons is closer to Karas Levert than James Hardin. So you're going to need to throw in two or three future picks along with Simmons. That's really hard to hear. Yeah.

I know. That's extremely hard to hear. I know, dude. And I don't know. And that's another reason if I were the Sixers, I would be like, all right, well, we need to decide right now, whether we want to make this work with Simmons. and indeed or make a deal.

And if we want to make a deal, then we should do it sooner rather than later because I don't know if his value is going to go up if they hang on to him for like another season here. No, I don't think it will. Let's talk about who's better or worse off with Bradley Beale then. Because that was the guy who I think Brad's had a pretty tough week in D.C. like a lot of folks.

And now it looks like Westbrook's going to be out like a month with this quad injury, which is now turning into a kind of a chronic injury frame, I think. Yeah. Beal was already pretty salty before Westbrook was out for this extended period of time. Maybe they revert back to plucky wizards of last year and like peel off a couple wins.

But do you think that the Bradley Beal drumbee is going to get louder? Is he better off or worse off because it's hardened thing? I mean, look, pass me a drum. I'm ready to beat it. Like, let's get Beal out of D.C. deserves to be on a winner. He's amazing. I mean, like, the one thing,

everybody keeps talking about Hardin, like he's like MVP material. And I think in the regular season, that's true. And in the playoffs, we have 10 years of evidence that he just does not get better. And there are elements of his game

that don't translate. Beal is his numbers in the playoffs are better than his regular season numbers pretty consistently. And I think he can really help somebody as far as like better or worse off after this deal. I don't know.

I don't think that he wants out of D.C. yet. He's wired a little differently than a lot of superstars. He does genuinely like it here. And I'm a diehard Wizards fan. And I'm like, why do you like it here so much? Go somewhere else.

Live your life. So the bidding will be interesting because I think if the Wizards start taking calls now, there are going to be a lot of teams that are willing to put up a ton. But if you wait until the offseason, then Beals got one year left on his deal. And I don't know what the market will look like.

I have a sinking fear that, like, they, after all these other superstars bring back, like, a Herschel Walker Hall in these trades, the Wizards are going to get, like, a first round pick and some bullshit, like fake All-Star, and it's just going to be depressing. But we'll see. Yeah, I was.

I can't, like, I definitely think that because of the amount of attention that was paid to the hardened thing, that even as somebody who writes and talks about the NBA, like, I'm already looking for that next person. So it seems like Bill is the logical guy who's going to be like, is Bill going to go? Is he going to go? Is he going to ask for a trade? Is he going to ask for a trade? Is he going to start playing like he wants to be traded? I can't see him doing that last thing. I can't see him playing like he wants to be traded. But it's pretty brutal to watch him in these press conferences, these Zoom meetings after games, and he just looks completely fucking traumatized by like what he's just been through on a basketball court with the Wizards.

Better off or worse off, two guys that we've spent a lot of time talking about over the course of our friendship, John Wall and Boogie Cousins, who emerged as pillars of a franchise in Houston in the final days of Arden with Boogie basically coming out and being like, given like a Hoosier's halftime speech after the game against the Lakers, basically being like Hardin needs to get the hell out. Boogie and John Wall, regardless of whether or not their best basketball is behind them, which I think it probably is, are you going to check out the Rockets at all and watch the Depot Wall and Boogie Show?

Are they better off? I mean, I was with you right until the end there, and I don't know if I'm going to be checking out the Depot, John Wall, and Boogie show at this point in 2020. Are you not part of the Christian Wood Scientology movement? I'm not a big Christian Wood believer. But at the same time, boogie and wall emerging as like the ombudsman,

the moral center in Houston, commenting on Hardin's behavior. That was just phenomenal. The one thing, I've really enjoyed the last 48 hours of NBA news. I do really wish the Houston Rockets had let James Hardin show up to practice in Houston because I think things could have gotten pretty spicy between Wall and Boogie that day. Those guys have like four or five major lower leg injuries between them.

I don't really think that they appreciate this dude who's just like, I've been eating at the open buffet at a strip club for like two weeks. Get me out of Houston. Exactly. I'm 75 pounds overweight. Oh, you guys suck. Get me out of here. Does not go over well with two guys who do have a lot of pride. Yeah. And I'm happy that they're happy.

I don't think that they're going to be above 500 this year. But honestly, like those guys going into like the sunset together makes me really happy as someone who has followed their careers very closely for the past decade. And it's it's kind of like a silver lining in Houston where like basically everything else sucks. There's two more guys I want to hit really quick. Okay. Durant. Because the Kyrie thing, I think we can put aside.

But Durant specifically has been one of the feel-good stories of a feel-bad NBA season. Just seeing a guy come back from an Achilles and be like, did you just twist your ankle? Like, that was it? Like, what happened? Like, you just came back from an Achilles injury and you look like peak KD. And I think that when we used to be at Grantland and Katie was still on the Thunder, there was just like a ton of like weird feelings about like, Durant is being ruined by his teammates.

Like Durant, we're not taking advantage of Durant. We're not seeing the best of Durant because of Westbrook. And then he went to the Warriors, and they were probably one of the best two or three basketball teams of all time. And everybody felt kind of flat, I think, unless they were Warriors fans. Everybody was just kind of like, all right, that's pretty cool. The Brooklyn thing is the Brooklyn thing.

And obviously he missed his first year there. But I was kind of enjoying a little bit of KD. Hero Ball. The last couple of the nights while Irving was out. Do you think he's better off or worse off being part of a big three again? Well, so it sounds like you would agree with me. I just recorded my podcast and this came up. And like, I don't love this for KD. I really, you know, the Warriors thing was so frustrating because Katie is just amazing.

Like he's one of the best basketball players any of us will ever see, like as long as we live. and watching the Nets the first few weeks of the season, I'm just like, look, man, I mean, the world is collapsing around us. Who knows whether this season will even count, but it is awesome that I get to watch Kevin Durant play basketball again. And it just reminds me how incredible he is. And it sort of bums me out when I then leap forward and think, all right, so are we going to remember the last 10 years of this dude's career

as like three years in Golden State where he won and ostensibly succeeded, but became like the first person in NBA history to actually lose by winning NBA titles. It was just like completely unfulfilling for fans and for Duran himself. And then also like the next thing, maybe it'll work.

I kind of enjoyed what it was like, Kyrie and KD betting on themselves. And then there were some fun role players around them. And it was like, all right, well, let's, see if they can, like, prove the whole world wrong. Now, it's three superstars, one of whom, like, is just completely off the grid. And then Hardin is not easy to root for.

And they don't really have a team around them. So I don't think it's going to work in a basketball context. They also don't have, like, assets to improve the roster. And big picture, like, I hope I'm wrong about a lot of this, because I'd like to see KD succeed. But big picture, I feel like we may look back and be, like, Like, Katie was so cool and should have been one of the most likable athletes in sports. And for some reason, it just didn't work.

And he made a lot of weird choices that affected the way we felt about him. Last one. And this one is very near and dear to our hearts. Better off or worse off, Sam Presti. Oh, boy. Well, there's a chance. Look, Brooklyn put up a lot of picks, okay? And they did this after having experienced the KG trade in 2010.

Yes. There's a real S&M element to this trade. Like, let's do, like, I want to feel the pain again. It's psychotic. I cannot believe that they did that. And yet, here's Sam Presti in Oklahoma City. He's got his war chest. He's got Kate Cunningham almost there.

He could almost feel him. no one's going to hold him accountable for winning for like the next six years. So he's good. Like he may not even need to show up to work. And then at the same time, like there's a chance that his hard and trade won't actually be the worst hard in trade in history, which would have been inconceivable a mere three days ago. This guy, he lived through the hardened tree. He lived through Bill and Zach and everybody else talking about that trade.

every day for like five years. And it seemed like inevitable that if anyone was going to knock the warriors off the perch in the Western Conference, it was going to be the Rockets and it was going to be hardened. And now it's going to turn out that he has won as many titles

as the Rockets have in that Hardin deal. Like nobody came out really the worst for the wear. He's bulletproof. People are now talking about him like he's the new Hinky. I'm not sure. I mean, look, you talked about Katie's teams

in Oklahoma City. I just have one memory seared into my brain where it was a playoff game. I don't even know what year it was, but I looked up and Derek Fisher was like the starting two guard next to KD. And I was just like, how the fuck is this happening? And why do people talk about Presti like he's a genius? There was a period there where it felt like guys would go to the Thunder and then immediately afterwards be out of the NBA.

Totally. Where you would just be like, I never saw that guy play basketball again. He was a starting player for the Thunder with Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook and then was like playing in Israel two months later. Dude, they were just cycling in these weird, like worthless journeymen, but you know, it's fine.

Katie's in a better place now. I have one question before we end this year. Would you as a Sixers fan be willing to keep Ben but give up a Nets haul of assets So I want like eight years of draft picks or whatever the maximum you can give. Would you do that for Bradley Beal? Do we have to keep, can we keep Maxie?

Keep Maxie. Look, you can trade everyone and build around Maxie if you want. Look, let me tell you something. I think Tyrese Maxie scoring 39 cost us James Hardin, cost the Sixers James Hardin. Because like then he was put into the deal. I think that the Rockets asked for him. And I think he became like, we cannot give up. I could be the next Steve Nash.

Can I give him up? Do you really believe that, though? Because I think, I mean, if so, credit to Darry to instantly turning into like a WIP caller after like six weeks in Philadelphia. Because I love Maxie. I don't think he's ever going to be more than like a seventh man. But if he was in fact the deal breaker for the Sixers, that's incredible to me. So you're asking would I give up?

basically any future asset, plus probably like Bible or Maxi and or Maxi or Maxi or something for a deal if that meant Simmons and MB could be on the same team. Yes. Yes. But I'm on the other side of it. I lived through the process. You know what I mean? So like I, to me it's like this, this needs to be like a third act of this thing.

It can't just be a perpetual like we're just going to keep tinkering and accruing and seeing and like trying these different combinations. Like this was always the point was to be able to. eventually like make a move like this. And I think they came up short a couple of times. Obviously like the Jimmy Butler thing just like blew up in their hand. But yeah, like Bradley Beal to me would be the perfect player to play off of the beat. Yeah.

Okay. That makes sense. More than anything, I'm trying to use this platform to see that idea and make sure it gets some legs because in the last 12 hours, I've read like 50 different bloggers throw out. Ben Simmons for Bradley Beal. And if I have to spend the next three years watching Ben Simmons and Russell Westbrook,

I honestly might leave the internet. So please just give me the picks. That sounds like heaven to me. I love Ben Simmons and Russell Westbrook. Really, that is a deal breaker for me. But who knows? Who knows where we'll be in the next month or two? Sharp, thanks so much for joining me, man.

I'll talk to you soon. It was great.