The Ringer NBA Show - What Can the NBA Draft Learn From the NFL Draft? | The Answer

Episode Date: April 30, 2021

Chris is joined by Kevin O’Connor to discuss the differences between the NBA and NFL drafts, and what the NBA can adapt from the NFL’s draft to improve upon its own (03:00). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Kevin O’Connor Associate Producer: Erika Cervantes Production Assistant: Jonathan Kermah Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's Dave Hill takes you on a journey into the underground lives and careers of six professional gamblers. This eight-part podcast is a unique look into the gambling world that you don't want to miss. Check out gamblers on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. I am your host Chris Ryan and this week we ask, What could the NBA draft learn from the NFL draft? It's Thursday as I'm recording this.

We're just a couple hours away from the NFL draft. Dogs and cats are living together, guys. Rodgers might want out of the Packers. Nobody knows what the Niners are doing. Are the Patriots going to jump up and get a quarterback? Are the Panthers going to get three quarterbacks? I have no idea. By the time you hear this, it'll all be decided. But it did get me thinking a little bit, like the chaos, the interest level, the spectacle of the NFL draft. I think it's fair to say dwarfs what we have for the NBA draft. The NBA draft, the lottery picks are really important. But once you get out of the lottery, I think it really is hardcore fans maintain interest.

past that, but after a while, it's just like, who are we really picking here? For some reason, the NFL draft is able to maintain the interest of fans over the course of several days and several rounds. So I wanted to talk to our NBA draft expert, Kevin O'Connor, about whether or not there's anything the NBA

could learn from the way the NFL does their draft, whether or not the NBA could support more rounds. If there's a talent pool out there to support more rounds, what would have to be tweaked about roster size, the G-League, perhaps guaranteed contracts, things like that. and just kind of have a general conversation about what the NFL gets right about drafts

and what the NBA could do better. I don't want to turn the answer entirely into what's the matter of the NBA. But I think it's fascinating. I love the NBA draft, but it's sort of interesting to think about what somebody like Kate Cunningham could do for the Timberwolves, let's say, if they get to draft first, versus what somebody like Trevor Lawrence might do for the Jaguars. And I think that it's arguable that the Jaguars will be in a lot better shape but Trevor Lawrence than the wolves would with Cade, right? Like, I think in a couple years, Cade might work out to take the wolves to the top of the West

if they're able to do everything else right. But it has nothing like the impact that a first round quarterback can have on a football team. They're different sports. There's different team management. There's different rosters. I understand all that. But I really wanted to just have this compare and contrast conversation

and who better to do it with than Kevin O'Connor. So let's get into my chat. I'm so happy to be joined by my buddy, Kevin O'Connor. Kevin, what's up, man? How are you? I'm doing great today, Chris. I'm excited to be on the answer again. are you doing? I'm doing great. So we're recording this on a Thursday. People will probably

hear this on a Friday. We are mere hours from the NFL draft. And I wanted to talk to Kevin, obviously, about maybe what the NBA draft could learn from the NFL draft. Kevin is our foremost NBA draft expert at the ringer. And I was wondering, Kev, first of all, I assume you're just a huge NFL draft fan. I used to be equal in NFL and NBA draft in terms of my interest back in the 2000s. Really? Equal for me. Yeah. Was there almost a point? where you were going to start making NFL draft guides? I never wanted to do NFL draft guides because a lot of other people were doing NFL draft guides.

So that's one reason why I did NBA draft guides. The NFL draft has just always had so much more coverage ever since I've been a kid. Like I remember the 03 draft wanting Stephen Jackson to be drafted the Patriots. I got Vince Wolfork instead, which turned out to be a great decision. But I was so disappointed.

I've always loved the NFL draft ever since I've been a little kid. So are you able to go into Thursday when the draft starts and knowing it's going to be a multi-day? experience. Can you just go in there as straight up as a fan? Or do you ever like turn off the like, I'm sort of also an analyst part? And I'm also curious about how they're doing their evaluations and how they're doing

their big boards and how they're doing trades. Yeah. It's easy for me to shut it off now, though, just because of my knowledge of the NFL is so much, you know, less. I've just not in touch with the NFL as much as I used to be because I'm so wrapped in with the NBA. So it's easy for me to just to be a fan going in. And I don't know.

I've always sort of just. looked at it from like an analyst perspective though even when I was a teenager just because the Patriots were winning and they were contending it's like well how can we how can we build and round out this roster and find missing pieces I've always tried to look at it from that perspective as fans often do i mean NFL fans are smart NBA fans are too it's interesting so you're talking about from a Patriots fan perspective I'm obviously an Eagles fan uh we both have lots of stuff going on today that can happen you know you could wind up with just their fields you could trade down I might wind up with an Alabama wide receiver or a guy I'd never heard of, which with Howie Roseman,

I'll probably go with the latter. Don't hold me to that in case you free this on Friday. And the Eagles somehow walked up with like Justin Fields and Devonza Smith. But the reason I wanted to talk to you today, Kevin, is because you and I have been working on NBA draft content together for a while, whether it's pods or pieces or the draft guide and stuff like that. And you do such a great job covering that stuff. And I was curious whether or not on a big picture level, and I have a bunch of micro questions. When you're watching the draft and when you're thinking about the NFL draft, do you think that the NBA draft could quote unquote learn anything from the NFL draft, whether it's to make the NBA draft a more exciting TV product or event, or whether there's

actually some things that the NBA could do to restock its talent covered, so to speak, in the way that the NFL does? Yeah, I mean, the NFL draft has always felt bigger to me. I'm not sure if bigger means better. But I do think the NFL draft, the spectacle that it is, you know, they have like the red carpet and they have this huge stage and like all the all the lead up to it, months of lead up with all these stories and rumors and everything. It's always felt like there's just more of it than there always has been with NBA. And I don't know if part of the reason is just the timing of things.

You know, the NBA draft happens right after the NBA finals, a week or two after all the time. So there's like so little time for a lead up to it. So little time for, you know, the speculation and all that. So in terms of like what the NBA can learn from the NFL, I wonder if maybe it's just the timing of things more more so than anything else. Because there's nothing the NBA can do about the fact that like the NFL has 50 plus players on a roster. NBA size of roster sizes are way smaller. It's just a dramatically different sport in terms of what a player can do to change a franchise. So that's unchangeable. Maybe it's just about the timing. of things because there's no time really.

Everybody's focused on the finals and the playoffs and the lead up to the draft. So I think that would help the NBA a lot in terms of making it feel bigger. Like every, I don't know, five, six, seven years, it feels like a really good team, either has a bad season or has made a trade and is able to become a major player in the draft. So I think we all thought that was going to happen with the Warriors this season, but obviously Clay got hurt and their season kind of went off track, if not off the rails. You had the spurs that year when they were able, because David Robinson got hurt, they wound up getting Tim Duncan. But usually what happens is bad teams draft high up in the draft.

And the good teams are only just done their season. So, like, what you're saying is, like, I was curious whether you thought these teams, like, who are in the, like, the semifinals and finals or in the conference finals and the NBA finals, do they even really have that much time to get their drafts together by the time, by the time draft night comes along? Or are they pretty much just like, hey, we're 26. We're just going to take the guy who's here. Yeah, I mean, talking to people who work for some of those teams, they're working two jobs at that point, you know, and you're focusing on free agency. You're focusing on what's happening on the court and managing players and all that and all that comes, you know, with just managing personalities and some of the challenges with travel and all that. But you're also scouting the draft. And you're going to Chicago for the draft combine. You're traveling out to Los Angeles for, you know, a pro day or whatever it might be. So you're working double and doing double the work at the same time. And, and, and, and, you're going to Chicago for the job. And, teams do find challenges in that. I think some are, I mean,

I know some are better at it than others at navigating that time of year, especially if you do have a deep playoff run. But I do think teams still go in prepared. I mean, sometimes you can over prepare too. Yeah, is that? What do you mean by that? I mean,

are we seeing that right now, like in the NFL? Like, we'll see what happens Thursday. And we're recording this before the draft. But like the 49ers trade up to number three. Seems like they have their guy and Mack Jones. and then it's Trey Lance or

or maybe it is Justin Fields or who knows what it will be. We'll find out. Or maybe there's a schism in the front office and there's a couple of guys who want one guy and there's a couple of guys who got another. I think and people talk about the 49ers and that decision they'll have to make it three and I think people talk about it in a negative way

sometimes like well how could they not know? How could they not know? But I think the time that they gave themselves as a benefit. We saw the inverse of this and I hate to bring it up Chris but when the six just traded up to number one. You're right. For the Fultz here, there were people in the Sixers front office after Fultz had his bad workout and the interview that he had with them and they're like, well, maybe we

should think about Lonsa Ball. Maybe we should think about Jason Tatum, even though we traded up to get Markell Fultz, there's no harm in looking at the other guys that are available. And the 49ers did that. They gave themselves time to do that. And I wonder if maybe for NBA teams having more time would lead to some better decisions. You know, you're really right. The 49ers are creating a lot of chaos. Like, the 49ers are, and it also doesn't hurt that I feel like every NFL podcast I listen to, the person who's the guest is like, look, I'm keyed into the 49ers organization.

Like, I go fishing with Kyle Shanahan. Me and John Lynch get beers. Like, it's like everybody seems to know exactly what's happening in these rooms. And yet every one of them is like, it's Tray Lance or it's Justin. feel so it's back. Like, nobody has a straight answer and it's basically a misinformation campaign. And you're exactly right.

Like when, when that Fultz Tatum swap happened, that 1-3 swap happened, it was obviously for Fultz. You know, it was obviously, they were going up and they thought they, like, we get this point guard

and that unlocks the whole thing for us. But, you know, you're exactly right. What would have happened if they had been like, I don't know, we might take Tatum. Who knows? We might take Lons.

You know, if they, and then they had kept everybody else off balance. And that's what the 49ers are kind of doing. part of the reason why I feel like my heart's beating so fast that on Thursday morning is at three in the NFL draft, 75 different drafts could happen after that. You know what I mean? And I sometimes wish that the NBA had a little bit more variance in chaos.

Yeah, and it feels like a lot of the time on the day of the draft, I mean, like doing mock drafts, that nobody knows what's going to happen until like usually about a week until the draft. And then like in the days that approach, sometimes you still don't know. And then on the day of, that's where things typically become clearer. And sometimes it's not even until hours before the draft where like the misinformation disappears and you kind of have a better idea. Like I think last year with the fourth pick was a good example with the Chicago Bulls taking Patrick Williams.

That was unclear until the days leading up. But the fact we knew with strong confidence that Patrick Williams would be going to the Chicago Bowls with the fourth pick. I mean, I think for a casual fan turning into the broadcast, there was an element of surprise. But for teams and NBA for offices, there wasn't a lot of shock. And that makes prep easier. Like, you know what's coming.

And with the NFL, that's where I think there's an element of surprise that the NBA draft has always, or especially in recent years, has really lacked. And that's what makes the NFL draft for me personally, you know, like removing my, you know, role as NBA writer, you know, NBA analyst out of it. The NFL draft has always been more entertaining for me for that reason because there's always shocks, always all throughout the drafts. There's also, I think, an element, and I was curious how you felt about this. What do you think the difference is between what a college football player brings to the NFL

draft versus what a college basketball player brings, especially in that upper echelon, because college football is still such a popular sport here, but like there has been a little bit of a decline of popularity in college hoops, I think, you know, whether or not you want to chalk that up to the product or the players not spending that much time there or whatever else, more choice. I don't feel like people are as keyed in anecdotally on college hoops as they are on college football. And furthermore, like, these guys who might have staying three years at the colleges they play football for. So I've seen Trevor Lawrence play like 25 times. You know what I mean? I've seen Justin Fields play 10 times. I haven't seen Zach Wilson, but I've seen a lot of these

Alabama kids play a lot. I've seen kid Cunningham play like six times. You know what I mean? What do you think about the difference between the feeder product, basically? I think what you're touching on feeds in a lot of to what makes the NFL drafts more exciting for a lot of people and that we just have three years of Trevor Lawrence coming in and hearing about how great he is. We had three games of James Wiseman last year and watching high school players is harder. It's just there's not like high school games airing on TV all the time and there's not a lot of hype around it. And I think having more time with those players just allows for getting to know them more. You know, like there's more stories about them.

We understand who they are as a person more often and not just like the top picks, but guys in the middle of the first round in the NFL draft, the projected second round picks and all that. We know more about them both on the field and the way they are, but also just who they are as a person too. And, you know, I think that that's what hurts the NBA draft in some way. is because in that the NBA regular season in a normal year ends in April. The draft is in late June through it's like we touched on earlier through from April through June what NBA media and fans are primarily focused on is the postseason. It's the playoffs.

It's not the draft quite as much. Even if you're a fan of a team in the lottery, you have one eye on the playoffs still or you're still thinking about free agency and all that. And for the NBA, I do wonder if maybe push. the draft back a little bit more, which a lot of people in front offices want for, you know, their own reasons in terms of team building, you know, for team building, a lot of people want to have free agency first. You round out your roster with the known commodities, signing players, trading players and all that. Then you have the draft for the younger guys, so you have a better

idea of what to get. That's why front offices want it. I wonder if for the league office, maybe having more of a build up with some empty space between, you know, the end of the finals, and then you have free agency, and then you have some time until the draft. If that would just make it a bigger, better overall product for the NBA having it. Like in a normal year, like I said,

season ends in April, finals in June, draft in, I don't know, mid, late August, something like that. I just wonder if that would be better.

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's definitely, would you want the lottery still to happen before free agency? Teams definitely would, yeah. But you,

so in this scenario, you would know, New Orleans can get Zion, even if they haven't picked him yet, they have no number one pick, then it's free agency. So players could theoretically say, I want to go play with Zion.

Yeah. And then there's free agency, and then there's the draft. So you would do it that way. Yeah, I think lottery, free agency drafts. To me, that's probably the ideal for creating the most...

Which is essentially what the NFL does, right? They essentially, I mean, the end of the season, the draft order is set. Free agency has. happens. Then there's like this incredible wallopalooza leading up until the draft where everybody's running around like crazy. And then we have the draft and then there is like a hard off season. Yes, exactly. And to me like that is probably the best setup for teams in terms of

building out their rosters in the smartest, best possible way that they can, but also for fans in terms of generating excitement. Because if if you have, I don't know, like it's easy to come up with theoretical. But like if a team, like let's say the warriors were to get, you know, the number one pick, just theoretically, if they were to get the number one pick. And then you have free agency in that crazy trade season. To me, there's just more of a potential for big moves and crazy trades and a lot of excitement than there is the other way around because there's complications with having the draft before free agency. So, I mean, NBA and NFL totally different in terms of what players can bring on the field immediately in the early years. But that's one of the reasons

why NBA teams prefer it the other way around. Then the other side of that corn, obviously, as you I've chatted about before is just the nature of guaranteed contracts in the NBA is so much different than the nature of guaranteed contracts in the NFL. So everybody is always in the NFL just a number. Like, it's like, how much dead cap am I going to eat if I happen to cut? No matter how legendary this player is to the local fan based, even the casual NFL fan, if I get rid of Julio Jones on the trading block right now because of his huge number or like at least rumors that he's on the block, like, that wouldn't be, like, you rarely can make that happen in the NBA. Like, otherwise, you wouldn't see John Wall on the Rockets, right?

Yeah, for sure. John Wall would be a goner. Right. But John Wall, like, then out on the free agency market, signing some different kind of deal might be an interesting player for somebody right now. You know what I mean? For sure. No doubt.

I mean, he still views himself as an elite player. I know. Well, that's part of why we love him. Or why I love him. So here's another question. One of the things that makes the NFL, Draft a multi-day spectacle is obviously the amount of rounds it has. And obviously there's more roster spots on the NFL,

so you need to fill more roster spots. But I was curious how much on your average year, say maybe not this year because of the COVID season. Like I think that it's a little bit tweaked about guys, you know, opting out for this season or who, you know, how many players are really available for the NBA draft. But on any given year, given the talent pool, how many rounds do you think,

think the NBA draft could support. Yeah. Do you think we're already pushing it at two? Probably. There are a lot of teams with their second round draft picks that they know that those picks will probably amount to nothing. But those picks do somehow have like a residual value though, right? Yeah, they can for sure.

And I mean, I guess you could do three potentially. Or maybe if you add some picks for like compensation rules or something like that, like the NFL does have like if you lose a player in free agency, Maybe you have a compensation, you know, 10 picks or something like that in the middle of the draft. I just talking to NBA executives, what they're always most interested in. And I think NBA teams also like having the undrafted part of free agency. I just don't know if there's enough to add 30 more picks. There's really a lot of the times like five or 10 guys that teams actually care to sign afterwards,

after the first 60 picks. It's not a lot afterwards. And there's no point to actively draft for your your developmental team. Like you're not like baseball where you're like you're drafting to restock the minors. Well, and that's where I think the NBA can be better. I think if you if you do allow for more expansion

in terms of like the amount of guys that you can have on two ways, the amount of players that you can have the rights to in their G league, if you can change the way contract rules work to have more of a true minor. league system because the way it is right now with the G League and the NBA, they're still basically two independent type of, you know, teams that just, they, they are partners. You know, somebody who runs the G league, a G league team may sign a player to a G league contract, but that player can still be signed by other teams.

And so that is good for the players in the sense that if you play for, I don't know, like, you know, the South Bay Lakers, you can still get signed to, you know, the Boston Celtics, right? That can still happen unless you're on a two-way deal. If the NBA were to make it where that player is able to be paid more, which is good for the player, but be part of the organization and only have the opportunity to get called up by their NBA franchise, then in that case, yes, I do think you can add another round or maybe even two more rounds. And maybe that would be for the benefit of the NBA, because then you have, you know, a Sixers fan who is watching that team more closely, knowing that those players in their G League team are part of the organization, you know, because, right. Right now, it's not really not. It's a farm system for everybody and not for the one organization.

And I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I appreciate the fact that the contracts that the NBA players sign have a lot more solidity to them than for the NFL. And I also obviously understand that there are only, what, 12 roster slots on an NBA team. There's like 15 to 17 on a developmental team, on the G League teams. And I don't really know what the point is of having like, you know, a double A NBA team. what's the likelihood that an NBA team, especially wanting any kind of contention, would choose bringing some kid up from the G League

or below that, if you want to call it that, when they could get like Furcan Cork Maws or if they could get, you know, Raul Netto or something like that. Like somebody who's just like an experienced veteran that they would actually be able to play 11 minutes a game. So there's a degree of which it's like, there's just not that many opportunities.

But I do kind of wish there was that, extra, I wish there were more rounds so that there were more picks so that there was more chaos. Does that make sense? Totally. Totally. And I think having more rounds, more chaos creates more potential for big trades. It creates more potential for that fourth round pick that an NBA team gets where you don't really think anything of the Memphis Grizzlies drafting Freddie Gillespie. You know, do you develop that connection with the player?

You see him doing well with the Memphis hustle. And then he gets called up to the Memphis Grizzlies. Instead, what happened is he's undrafted. He plays for the Memphis Hustle. And then he gets signed to a 10-day contract by the Toronto Raptors, then another 10-day contract and then a two-way contract with the Toronto Rappers. And congratulations to him. It's awesome.

It's big. And it's great that he had the option to sign with any of the 30 NBA teams. And that's the pro of that. You give teams opportunities to sign any player. You give the player opportunity to sign any player. but I do wonder if maybe for in terms of continuing to generate excitement and which generating excitement and interest raises the potential for more money for players to be made, which increases popularity in the G league, which raises, you know, again, potential raise of salaries.

If Freddie Gillespie could have been making a lot more money in the G league, you know, that he would be on his two-way contract in the NBA. If it were that way, where the Memphis Grizzlies would have had the full rights to Freddie Gillespie in the organization, just as an example. I mean, there's pros and cons to it, but I do think from a fan perspective, I'd be more invested into my G-League team if that were the case. Yeah.

What are we trying to replace, right? Are you trying to replace the fans' interests? So let's take a Philadelphia fan, for instance. So like, if they're, let's say, like, for me, my college basketball rooting interest lies with Temple. Temple's, like, fine on a year-to-year basis. I'm aware that

like there's a Delaware affiliate from the Sixers who play in the G-Lague. I don't make I don't make the effort to watch them. But if I thought that the best, like, it basically, like, I wonder whether or not the G League can be truly successful while they're still in NCAA. You know what I mean?

In terms of, like, how much basketball can any one person watch that has something of their fandom wrapped up in it? And I guess, like, you know, we're kind of starting to see a trickle in of NBA talent in the draft, Jalen Green this year, of guys who have gone in different, you know,

taken different routes to the league than the traditional like college one year or one or two years and then come to the NBA. I wonder whether or not like this is kind of dependent on like the stability of college hoops,

you know? What you just said makes me think, do you think the NBA's long-term plan is to make it so the best talent and maybe not even just the top five high school players,

but even maybe the top 25, the top 30. Like Deshawn Nix is like one of those guys who went to the G league this year. Do you think the NBA's long-term plan could be to have as many of those players as possible come to the G league, maybe not even just for one year. In some cases, it might be one year for a top prospect like Jayland Green. But for a Deshawn Nix, it might be two years or three years so that player can develop. So NBA teams have more time with that player to scout them and learn about them, but also

fans have more time to be invested. Is there any path for the G league to rise so much in popularity that, you know, it's taking away that all those talents from college basketball? Man, so, you know, I still have a lot of affection for college hoops. I don't want to see. Like, there's part of me to understand why, like, when you turn into a Carolina game and, like, Rashid Wallace is in the front row. Like, I love that. And I also know why he does that. I know why, like, when you, you know, for everything that,

people say about like how how exploitative the NCAA can be of the athletes. I do think that a lot of athletes really, really love their time in college. It's a really special moment where they're having probably a ton of fun, but it's not that serious yet. It's not like the NBA. They're not in hotels every night. They get to hang out with people their own age who like are doing the same things of them, going to class, going to this college. And it's a really cool moment, even if it only lasts eight months in some guys's cases or two or three years in other guys's cases. I think there's something that's, you can't duplicate that in a G-League or something like that. So passion would be an issue.

That being said, it would be kind of cool if there was a Lakers kind of like G-League team. And like on a Wednesday night, and it is like in a smaller gym in L.A. And on a Wednesday night, like LeBron and AD were going nuts on the sideline because their G-League team was making a run in like a G-League tournament. Like, I do think that there is like an untapped AAU kind of NCAA hybrid theater system thing that would be exciting. Now, the problem with that is is that it's like, who's the kid that you were talking about, Nix? Deshawn Nix, yeah. How early do we start to say that he is a, he is a member of the Utah Jazz?

Do you know what I mean? Now, on one hand, that could make drafting really interesting because are you drafting a 16-year-old because you don't need him right now? or do you draft the 21-year-old because you do need somebody to come in right now? Like, there is, like, that would add a little bit of variance into it, and that's a little closer to soccer where you see teams like Real Madrid just sign like the best 16-year-olds in Brazil every year just to have them. And if they go out on loan, great. And if whatever, if they turn out to be, you know, world beaters, that's all the better.

But I don't know, man, it's so fascinating because I think that that is something that's missing right now for the NBA. NFL is just feeds off of how big college football is. For sure. There are some executives I've talked to. And, you know, what we're talking about touches on like a conversation I had with an exec, a couple of years ago.

And he is somebody who thinks it's a bad move for the NBA. If they do try to make this like a total feeder system and like try to replace, you know, NCAA basketball. And his reason was, you know, from a scouting perspective, there's the reason that like, you like to see these players in crowded arenas, you know,

It was a bunch of crazy fans on the road with intense games that matter to millions of people across the country. And he is not convinced that the G League will ever come close to ever replicating that. And if you're taking those high pressure games away from players, you could be hurting them further when they come to the NBA. And the other side of it is the social aspect. If you're creating a system in which, you know, younger and younger players, you know, have a potential to make a lot of money, you might be removing like some of the benefits of like an

education, not college. like in high school, if the focus is like, it's like signing that G-League contract at 16, 17 years older entering the draft, there are some negative effects. In his opinion, I'm not like super well-versed in this, but like overseas, there is like a negative effect for some of those youth basketball players who are highly scouted that don't focus or get the proper education, then end up not panning out. They might be a great player at 14, 15, but then don't really get much better. Yeah. What can hurt them in life. Tare your ACL when you're 16. You know what I mean? Like at seven or 17 and you've made let's say you made a hundred thousand dollars that's just not going to last you

that long yeah and and that can hurt you in life and like he's worried about like the development you know of you know these young boys right you're young kids that growing into men that's for some some of them overseas it hurts the NBA really want that responsibility yeah and it's like it's a bigger thing than i think just than it seems on the surface it's a lot more challenging than it seems on the surface okay so that's interesting the thing that i've noticed obviously over the last couple of years in the NFL is this trend towards drafting franchise quarterbacks as right out of college. So you essentially are drafting your starting quarterback in the first round in the NFL draft. And obviously, we're going to probably see upwards of five guy, five quarterbacks go in

the first nine, ten picks of this year's NFL draft. By this point, by the time you hear it, it'll probably have already happened. The NBA doesn't have that kind of positional specificity when it comes to the drafts, right? Like it's a typically, I mean, I don't really know when people start drafting for need, but especially since the NBA has become increasingly positionless, you're essentially drafting for either potential or obvious skill and you're worrying about fit later. The NFL is different, right?

Like there are certain positions that there's a lot of, there's a premium on, whether it's quarterback, obviously defensive backfield and left tackle is another premium position. What do you think of the difference between the way? way teams kind of like both emphasize obviously there's more positions to be played in the NFL but I find it fascinating when the NBA kind of has this like mixed match like group of guys up at the top sometimes we have a tendency to overemphasize the big men but what's your reaction when I start talking about stuff like that I mean I feel like in the NBA it's so often just about

well how can we find a star yeah it's just simply about that whereas in the NFL sometimes it's about like well how can we find a slot wide receiver who draws attention you know in the middle the field to help open up the top, right? It's like skill specific needs more so with the NBA. It's always about finding the next star, finding a star. It's just dramatically different in that sense. And does that hurt in some ways that that's the conversation instead of like, you know, for the six years you get Matisse Thibel.

And he's like one of the best defenders in basketball, even though you can't score efficiently yet, plays only 20 minutes per game. But it's like you have one of those brilliant, beautiful defenders to watch in the game. And it just doesn't matter. matter as much, like as it would in the NFL to have the equivalent of Matisse Stuybel, kind of like a specialist in the NFL, seems to matter more, if that makes any sense. No, it totally does. I feel like part of the reason for a lot of what we're talking about, like one of the main factors in everything that we're talking about here has to do with

parody in the NFL versus in the NBA. And the fact that Miami might be two or five guys away from winning the AFC East and making a run in the playoffs, Minnesota, even if they get Cade, I don't know how good they can be. You know what I mean? Because they still have the DeAngelo Russell contract and they still can't really play defense that well. And I don't know whether or not Minnesota could compete

in a loaded Western conference with one or two guys. But Miami, who was garbage two years ago, tanked for Tua, got him. And if Tua winds up being better this season, I'm not putting a ceiling on what Miami could be, would you? And that's the difference in the draft. It's like that if Miami gets Kyle Pitts, like, I don't know.

That seems amazing. If Minnesota gets Cade, I'm like, maybe they'll make the playoffs. Or like, it's like when if Minnesota gets Cade, it's like, oh, maybe in three or four years, they'll be able to compete for a title. Right. But like this year, there's none of that feeling. It's like, oh, hopefully we can get the eight seed, you know, and have the, have the advantage in a playing tournament.

That's what it becomes. And that, that it's kind of disappointing in that sense. But if Kate Cunningham were to come in at 22 years old, it'd be a totally different story. And, again, like, the pros and cons to it. The pros or players can come in right away if they're older and offer more. The negative is the fact that, like, he is ready to come in right away and compete after just one year of college. He would have been ready after senior year of high school. So it's like they can contribute earlier.

It's just not for the level that it changes everything for the franchise and the immediate years to come. Right. I mean, this is where, like, these super teams in, like, the upper echelon of the NBA is just they're so good and they're just so much better than the bad teams. Whereas, yeah, like, when you watch a Ravens-Bengels game, you know,

if the Bengals beat the Ravens, it just wouldn't be the end of the world. You'd be like, oh, yeah, they got them. Any given Sunday. Like, they had their number this time. It just doesn't seem to have, because the NBA is such an attritional league. And even to get through the playoffs,

you have to beat a team four times in a seven-game series. I just don't know, like, how you change that. And, like, part of it is, like, I guess, like, my last question and the question I wanted to ask you is in terms of draft philosophy. And the way that the NFL has sort of figured out, hey, like, if you find yourself a quarterback that can start day one who hooked up with the right offensive mind at coordinator or coach, you guys, you guys are like ready to go to the Super Bowl, basically day one, whether it's a Mahomes or a Jackson or, I mean, golf did go to the Super Bowl. then you have all this other money to play with in your cap to get him the help he needs, whether it's on the O-line, whether it's skill players, whether it's a defense that keeps games close. I wish that there was something like that for the NBA.

I wish that it felt like when the Pelicans get Zion, they're not, and this is actually self-inflicted by Griffin to some extent, but they're not now all underwater with Bledso Adams, like all these kind of contracts and veterans and guys who don't necessarily fit around Zion. You know what I mean? And you wish a team like that could be a contender right away. Yeah. Or at least be able to make the, make the playoffs.

Like the Pelicans might not even make the playing tournament. Yeah. Right. And that's disappointing. It sucks. Yeah. And I mean, like, look, you have to be good. You know what you mean?

Like, there's plenty of NFL players like and they'd get drafted at the top of the draft. And like, you know, Seekwan Barkley hasn't played really any consequential football since he's been drafted. Even if he was exciting. This might be a dumb thought, but is there, is there ways for the NBA to make it easier? for teams to build out their rosters? So you create more opportunity for that to happen? What I mean is just because the nature

of the NFL cap and the way it is financially, to your point, you have a quarterback on his rookie scale contract, you're better able to spend elsewhere. Is there a mechanism like that for the NBA and NBA equivalent? I don't know. It's just a thought that came to mind after you said that.

That's what I'm saying is like you'd have to basically find a way to have like more stretch provisions and more like fluidity within who you have to keep on your roster due to contractual obligations or not. That's really like, I can't think of another way unless you want to start adding more kinds of mid-level exceptions that teams could like, let's say you could trigger it once every five years. You know what I mean? You can use this part of your salary cap. And if you want to make a run, quote unquote, you can use 10 more million dollars and you can try it. Like, I don't know.

I mean, this is the problem. It's also like you have 12 slots and seven of them are the ones. you only have seven who really matter. So I don't really know. And every once in a while, you'll get like a team where a coach decides that the four guys are getting paid the most aren't really like working out for them. And they're like out of the rotation.

So you've got $20 million players who are barely playing. It's, it's so, it's so delicate in the NBA. Where's the NFL? It's just like, I would tear it up. Let's start again. Team building. Not easy. Not easy.

Kevin, I hope you enjoy the NFL draft. And we can't wait to read more of your NBA draft coverage in the weeks to come. I really appreciate you joining me on The Answer today. Thank you for having me on, Chris. Thanks for listening to The Ringer NBA show and this episode of The Answer. We'll be back, of course, next Friday.

In the meantime, four or five times a week, you're going to find a show on the Ringer NBA show, whether it's real ones, group chat, Ringer MBA University. Of course, we've got Mismatch twice a week and Bill and Ryan both pumping out amazing pods. So check out all of these Ringer MBA pods for all your NBA content needs.

See you next week.